Gimme That Old Time Religion

[queenanne]

That strikes me as rather disingenuous of Harris, whose brain, while I grant, wasn't fully developed at the time; he still was nothing more than happy to soak up praise, royalties, and honorariums for years in connection with his maundering (sure that even before YouTube I remember being assailed with taped footage of him at panels and retreats).

[RazzleberryPie]

On May 5, 2016 at 9:01 PM, sometimesy said:

So that really clarifies Bin's weird rant regarding marriage recently (something about not requiring compatibility), also papa Seewald and his blog post regarding young people getting married (when he was trying to nudge things along). 

Just noticed this gem.

"The ‘youth’ ready for marriage has breasts. A woman who is to be married is one who has breasts; breasts which signal her readiness for marriage, and breasts who promise enjoyment for her husband. (We believe that ‘breasts’ here stand as a symbol for all forms of full secondary sexual characteristics.)"

Consent not mandatory.. omg there are more rules for purebred dog breeders. 

I started wearing a bra in 4th grade. I was sooooo ready for marriage. VOMIT.

[OpieTaylor]

On 6/24/2016 at 6:24 PM, NewDigs said:

Holy Crap.

"New International Version
But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother."
 

Judge not lest...

I'm confused - why wouldn't the child be Onan's and the woman's? Why would it be Onan's brother's kid? 

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, OpieTaylor said:

I'm confused - why wouldn't the child be Onan's and the woman's? Why would it be Onan's brother's kid? 

I think that the patriarch of Onan's line decreed that the child would be treated for legal and inheritance purposes as the dead brother's heir -- and thus grandpa patriarch's primary heir -- rather than as a child of Onan, who I think may have felt that he should now inherit since his brother was daid. Basically, gramps called patriarch's privilege and decreed that the kid would displace Onan in the inheritance list, looks like.

Kinda like Queen E waking up this morning to decree that, yeah, she's gonna bypass Charles, abdicate today and hand the throne to William. Or Charlotte. heh 

It's good to be Queen. Or patriarch.

[RazzleberryPie]

32 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I think that the patriarch of Onan's line decreed that the child would be treated for legal and inheritance purposes as the dead brother's heir -- and thus grandpa patriarch's primary heir -- rather than as a child of Onan, who I think may have felt that he should now inherit since his brother was daid. Basically, gramps called patriarch's privilege and decreed that the kid would displace Onan in the inheritance list, looks like.

Kinda like Queen E waking up this morning to decree that, yeah, she's gonna bypass Charles, abdicate today and hand the throne to William. Or Charlotte. heh 

It's good to be Queen. Or patriarch.

This. The purpose was to sort of surrogate/substitute your seed with your brother's wife (now your wife) to continue his line. In that time and place, a gracious and loving act. But Onan wanted to have his cake (relations with new wife, following th customs that he was taking her in and saving her from death and desperation) and eat it too (not get her pregnant and not provide an heir, thus not continuing his brother's line and losing that inheritance). The kid would biologically be Onan's, but legally considered his brother's. 

[DangerousMinds]

On 6/24/2016 at 10:07 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

Somehow, just that is supposed to imply that any waste of seed is sinful.

It's not also a waste if intercourse is had while the woman is already pregnant?

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

It's not also a waste if intercourse is had while the woman is already pregnant?

No, you must be joyfully available even when "big pregnant".  It is written in the Wisdumb Booklets.

[Absolom]

The Duggars keep having that intercourse is solely for procreation put upon them, but that is NOT one of their beliefs.  As Michelle has said repeatedly the wife is to always be joyfully available even during pregnancy or after menopause. 

[Sew Sumi]

I don't think Mechelle has ever addressed sex after menopause.

[Absolom]

It's implied that if your husband strays it's because he wasn't getting what he needed at home. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

I don't think Mechelle has ever addressed sex after menopause.

I doubt many  Fundy men have the skills or the sensitivity to negotiate the hormonal changes impacting the sexual well being of women in peri menopause, menopause, and after.  Even a randy gal like myself has challenges with discomfort, particularly since my high risk for breast cancer precludes my use of estrogens of any kind, and I have a loving and caring husband. Being these Fundy gals are kept ignorant about their bodies and prohibited from seeking medical advice or therapy from qualified professionals.

Michelle will never get any relief from Mr Grabby Hands, nor will he care about her comfort.

This means Jinger will get the cringeworthy mother daughter before the wedding night talk.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar

[MargeGunderson]

I just read an interesting series of articles in Texas Monthly about the Church of Wells, which is a very fundamentalist sect (some say a cult). Some aspects reminded me of the Duggars. Here's a link for anyone who might be interested: http://www.texasmonthly.com/tag/church-of-wells/

Edited June 27, 2016 by MargeGunderson
Thanks for moving, Mod!

[Marigold]

In my IFB churches, sex was for procreation, fun and love. 

I always had a positive view of sex. It was never presented as "dirty" or "bad" like some of my friends were taught. Maybe I was just in the right churches?  hahaha ;) 

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, Marigold said:

In my IFB churches, sex was for procreation, fun and love. 

I always had a positive view of sex. It was never presented as "dirty" or "bad" like some of my friends were taught. Maybe I was just in the right churches?  hahaha ;) 

Some churches or other houses of worship  provide better experiences than others. It all comes down to the minister/pastor/priest/rabbi and the way members of the congregation treat one another.

[GeeGolly]

On 6/27/2016 at 0:51 PM, Absolom said:

The Duggars keep having that intercourse is solely for procreation put upon them, but that is NOT one of their beliefs.  As Michelle has said repeatedly the wife is to always be joyfully available even during pregnancy or after menopause. 

So they have it both ways? It's okay to waste seed in a woman, but not by yourself? If they're using the Bible as their reasoning for masturbation being a sin, shouldn't any wasting of seed also be a sin?

[Jynnan tonnix]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

So they have it both ways? It's okay to waste seed in a woman, but not by yourself? If they're using the Bible as their reasoning for masturbation being a sin, shouldn't any wasting of seed also be a sin?

Well, I suppose if God could open the wombs of aged women like Sarah back in Biblical times, one never knows if he might do it again. You don't want to take any chances...

[Arwen Evenstar]

46 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Well, I suppose if God could open the wombs of aged women like Sarah back in Biblical times, one never knows if he might do it again. You don't want to take any chances...

Odd as that sounds, it could very well be their reasoning. I know I'm being generous in my use of the word.

[flyingdi]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:43 PM, MargeGunderson said:

I just read an interesting series of articles in Texas Monthly about the Church of Wells, which is a very fundamentalist sect (some say a cult). Some aspects reminded me of the Duggars. Here's a link for anyone who might be interested: http://www.texasmonthly.com/tag/church-of-wells/

Interesting articles, thanks!

I am so sick of these so called fundamentalist Christians and their personal relationships with Jesus.  Not a one of them follows Jesus,  they all strictly follow the Old Testament.  Jesus did not preach sexism or patriarchy or separation.  They all say they have Jesus in their hearts then completely ignore the fact that Jesus came not only to die for our sins but also to change Old Testament law.  Then they have the nerve to tell me that as a Catholic I'm not a true Christian anyway.

[DangerousMinds]

The "leaders" of the Wells cult are only in their late-20's, LOL. Just ridiculous to me. Get a few more decades of life experience and get back to us with your "wisdom" and advice.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

The "leaders" of the Wells cult are only in their late-20's, LOL. Just ridiculous to me. Get a few more decades of life experience and get back to us with your "wisdom" and advice.

Hey, in most organizations it takes until at least your 30s to claw your way into a significant executive position. In some situations, it's hard to get there before you're 60. So why not found a religious sect? Then you can be total monarch and boss of your fawning admirers by 27, and without graduating from high school! Just tell 'em God sent ya.

Seriously. Such a scam for the power hungry who don't want to actually work for that power. All you need is to be a charismatic bad boyfriend and attribute your erratic abusive behavior to whichever god the locals have already pledged fealty to. (Or, if you want to work a little harder and are kind of imaginative, make a god up. See Hubbard, L. Ron.)

Edited July 1, 2016 by Churchhoney

[DangerousMinds]

Even more insane is that these 20-somethings are referred to as the "elders." Hell, even Charles Manson had 20 + years on his followers.

[Natalie68]

On 6/29/2016 at 3:26 PM, GeeGolly said:

So they have it both ways? It's okay to waste seed in a woman, but not by yourself? If they're using the Bible as their reasoning for masturbation being a sin, shouldn't any wasting of seed also be a sin?

And now I have 'Because every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm gets wasted God gets quite irate' in my head! 

[Sew Sumi]

Someone posted it upthread a couple of days ago. Warped Monty Pythonesque minds think alike. :D

[Natalie68]

11 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Someone posted it upthread a couple of days ago. Warped Monty Pythonesque minds think alike. :D

Dang!  I must have missed it!  Love me some Monty Python!

[Arwen Evenstar]

8 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

Dang!  I must have missed it!  Love me some Monty Python!

 

8 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Someone posted it upthread a couple of days ago. Warped Monty Pythonesque minds think alike. :D

Guilty as charged

[Arwen Evenstar]

[Sew Sumi]

Um, I was eating when I saw that. We need a warning of some sort!

[Arwen Evenstar]

Glad I wasn't eating when I saw your reply...would have come out thru my nose.  Surely, you know what you can normally expect from me...evil grin...runs away

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Glad I wasn't eating when I saw your reply...would have come out thru my nose.  Surely, you know what you can normally expect from me...evil grin...runs away

If you ever post that horrifying Boob picture, I'm not sitting with you on the bus any more. Spitballs or no spitballs.

[MargeGunderson]

Churchhoney, you're going to have to be more specific - which horrifying Boob picture? You know there is a wealth of them.

[Aja]

Oh I know exactly the one Churchie means. *shudder*

All I see is yellow teeth.....

Edited July 7, 2016 by Aja

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, Aja said:

Oh I know exactly the one Churchie means. *shudder*

All I see is yellow teeth.....

No doubt there's a plethora of those as well.

[Sew Sumi]

Whitestrips are cheap. Hell, Michelle looks like she goes full out at the dentist for her white smile. 

And this really needs to be in their thread. 

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, MargeGunderson said:

Churchhoney, you're going to have to be more specific - which horrifying Boob picture? You know there is a wealth of them.

I prefer to leave my threat vague.

Let's just say any one in which his face fills more than 10 percent of the shot.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Marigold]

The mini golf dry humping one trumps it all. 

[Lady Edith]

Ok, so...in between viewings of Return to Amish, I've been doing some research and learning more about the Amish brand of Christianity and what it entails.  I noticed that there are quite a few similarities between Amish and Gothard views, particularly with the subjugation of women, the limiting of education, and the church having total control over nearly every aspect of members' lives, like a parent.  I wonder if JB borrowed something from Gothard and something from the Amish and came up with the twisted view he uses in Duggarism? 

I watched this really awesome documentary on Netflix about people leaving the Amish faith and being "shunned" by their church and family.  This made me think... I wonder if that would happen in Duggarism?  If one of the kids decided that this was no longer for them, would they be forever shunned from the TTH?  Would their siblings be banned from speaking to them?  I can't remember how it was done in other Gothard families (like the Kellers), if the families treated the leaving children as they always did or if they were essentially "dead" to them (or some variance therein).  I think I remember Anna has a brother and 1-2 sisters who left...and aren't treated the same as Anna and Pris.  

I have a feeling that a defecting Duggar would be shunned by the family as a whole because they would then be "impure" and "worldly".  And they can't have THAT in their home now, can they?  Could bring more sin into the camp!

[Sew Sumi]

The Kellers did shun Suze and Daniel for a while, but I think when that the fact that they were consciously denying themselves two grandchildren in the process, allowed them back into their lives. I am not sure whether Rebekah and her ex, Josh, were shunned after they left Gothard early in their marriage. I never sensed the same schism with the McDonalds as there was with the other two, who were definitely pariahs for a while. 

The Duggars, at this time, aren't going to go anywhere. There are paychecks involved for the kidults. How else could Jinger afford to buy the car she flipped if there wasn't something in the till from TLC? She has had a few token jobs with her photography, but even Jessa admits those have been fairly recent, and certainly not earning thousands of dollars. There's also a potential People cover in this for Jinger, along with TLC checks. I am just afraid that she will be handing her money over to the headship, who will use it for his church. I certainly hope that Jinger can keep whatever money she has made prior to the marriage for her own use. 

Then again, who knows? That may be her fucking dowry. These people are so medieval in so many ways. 

[Absolom]

My personal view is I don't think the Kellers were nearly as shunning of their kids as they are reported to be.  There never seemed to be a divide with Rebekah.  There were some fairly early photos of Suze and baby with her parents.  They may have been communicating all along and had no need to tell the world at large.  The issue with Daniel and Thanksgiving was that the Kellers were going to Duggarville for Thanksgiving and Jim Bob refused to have him and his wife at the table.  Jim Bob, of course, made Daddy Keller carry the news.  How much of a fracture that lead to is not really known to us.  The Kellers could have then refused to go have Thanksgiving and I might have done that but then there would be fall out that way also.  After Daniel's outburst it was obvious that there were then bad feelings on both sides but they'd had some of that I'm sure anyway.  Without the Duggar involvement the Kellers seem much more accepting of their kids.  Based on Jim Bob's behavior, he's the one I'd worry about trying to cut out anyone who doesn't march his way.  It will be interesting to see how he and Derick get along while their home.

[GeeGolly]

I just don't understand engaging in a religion that embraces shunning friends and family, or shunning anyone for that matter. Not being religious myself, or raised with anything resembling organized faith, and maybe I am naive, but I don't get it.

[kokapetl]

Shunning can be an effective method of coercion, but the whole ATI/IBLP/Gothardism movement seems to be spread too thinly for it to work. The individual communities are basically just individual families, right?

[Aja]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I just don't understand engaging in a religion that embraces shunning friends and family, or shunning anyone for that matter. Not being religious myself, or raised with anything resembling organized faith, and maybe I am naive, but I don't get it.

 

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Shunning can be an effective method of coercion, but the whole ATI/IBLP/Gothardism movement seems to be spread too thinly for it to work. The individual communities are basically just individual families, right?

Yep, just another cult strategy to maintain power and control over your sheeple. I suppose being shunned by the entire Duggar/TLC/People axis of evil could feel, to some, very much like being shunned by an entire community that you so desperately wanted to be a part of. Hee. 

[kokapetl]

I should add that the conditions at Gothard HQ might accommodate shunning. The organization had 120 employees in 2014. 

[Marigold]

I was raised IFB and attended IFB well into adulthood. The last IFB church was too controlling and we left.  They practiced shunning.  I saw a church family in Costco and said "hi" and they looked right at me and ignored me. The husband, wife and five kids. I was a bit surprised. 

I do recall that any family that officially left the church was announced in church and that was the cue to "shun". I didn't realize how that worked until my Costco experience. 

I did not have any experiences like that in any other IFB church ever.  Never heard of it or saw it.  I don't want to paint all IFB churches with such an extreme brush. But that last church was too controlling.

[Sew Sumi]

We cannot know what they practice, pretty much down to the family level, since so many of them homechurch, so they make up their own rules or they're marginally IFB, like the Mall Church Gil Bates has set up. The Kellers, for instance, have that Baptist church that supports Mike's prison ministry, but they never stated that was their home church. I don't think anyone knows what they do on Sundays. There are rumors that the Duggars have abandoned the home church, but those are conflicting. No way that they'd attend Cross Church; that's waaaay too liberal for KJB, even if Donnie what's his face "blessed" Jerick's mission work in Danger America. Cross Church didn't send them there, because they aren't qualified to be Southern Baptist missionaries. That was really just a good PR move for Donnie, who is the head of the SBC. Had Jill and Derick not had "Duggar" attached to their names, they wouldn't have been so "blessed" by the church. 

[Marigold]

I think the Duggars home church often and sometimes pop into Cross Church just to have an official church on their resume. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

14 hours ago, Marigold said:

I think the Duggars home church often and sometimes pop into Cross Church just to have an official church on their resume. 

Or an official church that has a bonafide ordained minister to officiate their 19 weddings and counting....

[GeeGolly]

So you all have me thinking now. A friend/co-worker and I had a discussion years ago comparing our weddings. Her wedding took place at her church with her pastor. I explained that we borrowed a pastor from an area church who married us in an unused, but historical church that is available to rent for weddings. She was politely appalled. 

It was at that moment that I realized that I didn't invite God to my wedding. I'm okay with that, and anyway we got married on a Saturday in the Spring, I'm sure there were a lot of weddings happening and God was busy.

But wouldn't the Duggars and the like feel they would HAVE to get married in a house of God?

[Sew Sumi]

Isn't God everywhere? I've seen fundie weddings in barns and outdoors, so it's not unprecedented. You just can't invite a thousand of your BFFs, and we know that the Duggars are all about the Show, as tacky as it may be. 

I was nominally identifying as Christian when I got married, but didn't realize that I'd actually been baptized Lutheran, as had my husband. Since we didn't know this, his parents' Lutheran church wouldn't marry us, and my parents' Dutch Reformed church likewise refused. Assholes. 

We borrowed a non-denominational pastor and got married at my parents' house. The ceremony was short and sweet (hubby is an extreme introvert and hates any kind of spotlight on him), but we certainly felt that God was present. 

[DangerousMinds]

There are many gods in all places.:)

[Defrauder]

You know what get's me about the Duggars, Jesus spent most of his time defying and rejecting the religious rules of the day, which got him crucified, and the Duggars think they're all in for Jesus in resurrecting all of the rules Jesus was actually against.