Gimme That Old Time Religion

[galax-arena]

Yes, there is a verse that says women should be quiet in church.  I taught a humongous Bible class for married couples for awhile, and was so conflicted about this I asked the pastor.

For anyone interested*, it's 1 Timothy 2:11-15:

 

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

I mostly know that verse by heart because I just started reading I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking I Timothy 2:11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence by Richard and Catherine Clark Kroeger, which is meant to debunk the way it's been traditionally used in churches.

 

One extreme pastor used those verses to insist that women weren't even allowed to say "amen" in response to his sermons....

 

* I know DangerousMinds' comment was from a while ago, but I don't recall if anyone ever mentioned the specific verse. So apologies if someone already beat me to it a long time ago, lol.

[RainbowBrite]

For anyone interested*, it's 1 Timothy 2:11-15:

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

 

 

Wow, I have honestly never read the bible before but of course in day-to-day life I have heard/read parts of it. That passage made me feel sick in the pit of my stomach. The fact that people are reading this and adopting it in their lives is sickening. 

 

For all of my compliants about ME-chelle, I don't feel that she remains quiet and fully submissive to JB, so I have to give her credit there (did I just say that??). 

[GEML]

Just to clarify - a lot of Baptist roots do have a Calvinist heritage. It's just been a LONG time! They were often the uneducated branch of Presbyterians in the South in the same way Methodists filled the role of uneducated Episcopalians. (Grossly oversimplifying, but if you think of American religion as tree branches, that's what I'm trying to say.)

[galax-arena]

That passage made me feel sick in the pit of my stomach. The fact that people are reading this and adopting it in their lives is sickening.

Because I exist to make you miserable, have a video of the pastor I referenced upthread, the one who says that women shouldn't even say "amen" in church:

 

 

Of course, this guy is particularly nutty even among the fundie/Duggar set, so he's not necessarily a representative example of the harm that can come from such complementarian leanings. (I'm not sure if Steve Anderson would even call himself complementarian, the word's probably too wimpy for him.)

 

There's also Ephesians 5:22 ("Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.") which at least one well-known complementarian theologian, John Piper, used to minimize and dismiss domestic abuse:

 

 

Relevant quote: “If [the abuse] not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.”

 

He did get into a lot of hot water for that one, but it's dismaying how so many people still look up to the guy. I'm not sure the Duggars do, though, because Piper's ministry has criticized the Quiverfull mentality before:

 

"It is wrong to reason that since A is good and a gift from the Lord, then we must pursue as much of A as possible. God has made this a world in which tradeoffs have to be made and we cannot do everything to the fullest extent. For kingdom purposes, it might be wise not to get married. And for kingdom purposes, it might be wise to regulate the size of one's family and to regulate when the new additions to the family will likely arrive."

[Sew Sumi]

It was just a matter of time before the Pissing Preacher showed up on this thread. I agree, he's someone that even the Duggars would avoid. He has a string of arrests, and he's not above provoking the police and/or border patrol to martyr himself. A true nutter (as is his wife). 

 

I'll just leave Ben's latest here with a comment that it's beyond ironic that his "expert guest" wrote a book about logical fallacies, but I managed to find seven only half-listening! LOL

 

[Rhondinella]

Back to specific religious issues related to the Duggars, please.  Thanks.

[galax-arena]

I'll just leave Ben's latest here with a comment that it's beyond ironic that his "expert guest" wrote a book about logical fallacies, but I managed to find seven only half-listening! LOL

Lisle's answers made my brain hurt. "How can morals exist if there's no God? Morality makes sense in the Christian worldview. It does not make sense in the atheist worldview." The Duggars and Lisle are the type of people who don't believe animals have souls, right? (Don't remember if the Duggars have said anything specifically to that effect, but I'm pretty sure they don't.) How do they explain that some animals (e.g. rats) have shown a sense of empathy and altruism? Or are these animals suppressing their knowledge of God, too? Because hey, if God didn't exist, then there'd be no reason for rats to care about their fellow rats because nothing's rights or wrong, eh?

 

Bin: "I had to listen to it a few times because... they were pretty smart... I had to look up some of those big words." I know there's a joke in there somewhere but I'm still too annoyed with Lisle's answer to figure it out.

 

Another Bin comment (he's quoting from someone): "You're just borrowing from my worldview to combat my worldview." Christians did not invent morals, you freaking idiots. (Oops, I just committed an ad hominem attack. Lisle would be displeased.)

[Sew Sumi]

Logical fallacy: Moral high ground. :D

 

eta: Ben is getting raked over the coals for the video. 

 

http://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/1083276/pregnant-jessa-duggar-hubby-ben-seewald-proof-god-exists-research

Edited May 8, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Sew Sumi]

Ben's new video with Dr. James White, a "Reformed Baptist." Mormons deny White's claim that they do not worship the Trinity. More "moral high ground" logical fallacies to be had here. 

 

[GEML]

Ah, the good ol' trinity discussion. My husband found out not that long ago that several Pentecostal/Apostolic fundy sects don't follow the Trinity - not in a Nicene Creed kind of way. Such a big mission field for young Ben. And so many of them wear denim skirts and long holiness hair, too!

[Micks Picks]

My computer won't play the Trinity video.  What did he say?  They don't believe in the Trinity, or that other people don't?

[JenCarroll]

They do; others don't.

[Micks Picks]

thanks JenCarrol.  How nice they know all about other people's beliefs.  As a Catholic I've been told we pray TO statues.  No arguing them out it.

[HumblePi]

Jim Bob Duggar Says Smartphones Can “Steal Somebody’s Soul”: Strange Quotes from New Interview

 

http://theashleysrealityroundup.com/2015/03/26/jim-bob-duggar-says-smartphones-can-steal-somebodys-soul-strange-quotes-from-new-interview/

 

[Happyfatchick]

I'm not sure this is the right thread... but I sure as heck don't know where else to ask for help.  I am so CONFUSED!!!  I saw pics of the baby dedication in a church today. Who's church is this?  Cathy's?  Is it still considered to be Derick's church?  Is Jill attending there regularly with him?  I asked about the Church of Jim Bobby recently, because I thought he preached/taught/whatever in his family in his living room.  It was explained that no, they've moved on from the living room and into a warehouse or some such space.  Is JB still preaching/teaching/what-ever-ing in this warehouse?  Is this church open to the general public and do other people worship there as well?  Has Jill now been excused to worship somewhere else? 

 

And I thought I saw drums or musical instruments behind Jerick in the pics.  This means that Derick's church is FAR more progressive than anything Jill has been exposed to.  She would NOT have been around drums.  Or any other instrument other than stringed ones in church, or an organ.  (Preferably the old pump ones!) Other instruments (especially drums) stir the soul too much, I gather (according to my very Fundie brother).  Drums and other musical instruments make you tap your feet and this is not acceptable.  If so, if JillyMuff is going to his church regularly, then good for her!  It's about time one of them made a concession to someone outside their compound.  Way to go, Jill!  Compromise is a good thing!  (I hope this is true!)

 

ETA to add:  Derick really does look a little like Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber in that pic.  Before that, I always thought he looked like the cartoon version of Stan Laurel (I think that was the caricature) in Laurel and Hardy.  The one with the really long face.

 

If they haven't, in fact, made a commitment to Derick's church, why didn't the Rev. Jim Bobby do the baby dedication in the warehouse? 

 

And about that warehouse.  Is JB really pastoring that church, or did I just assume this wrongly?  Is there a pastor there?  Does anybody know what denomination this church might be? 

 

I apologize for asking so many questions, and if it's too much to answer (but there are answers somewhere else), I'll be happy to follow a trail if someone posts links.

 

And my snark on the warehouse church, if it is Duggar based and led:  well, a surefire way to arrive on time for church is to OWN the church, and services don't start until you arrive.  Problem solved!

Edited May 11, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, Boob still "preaches" at the warehouse church when they're in town (not this weekend). However, it does appear that Jill is attending Cross Church in Rogers, which was Derick's sponsor church for his mission. Amy and her parents also go there. 

[Micks Picks]

Also from what I hear there is a small, select group of members.  It isn't open to anyone but those who are cleared to go.

[becca3891]

The warehouse church is to an actual church what the SOTDRT is to real school -- an insulated environment designed to discourage any new thinking or interactions with others who don't dress or think exactly as the Duggars do. No sign, no community outreach, no trying to bring in new people. Church is not supposed to be a club; it's supposed to be concerned about the community as well. After my own fundie upbringing, I am not a fan of church in general but I'm so happy Jill has taken a step in the right direction and is now attending a regular, if still fundie, church.

 

Although we tend to use the word "fundie" in regards to people like the Duggars on this forum, it of course includes pants wearing, non courtship obsessed people like Cathy and Amy -- anyone who believes the bible is the literal and inspired word of god. Here's a classic fundie talking point from the Cross Church website, lest anyone think it's TOO liberal:

 

 

A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation. Children, from the moment of conception, are a blessing and heritage from the Lord

Edited May 11, 2015 by becca3891

[Darknight]

Jim Bob Duggar Says Smartphones Can “Steal Somebody’s Soul”: Strange Quotes from New Interview

http://theashleysrealityroundup.com/2015/03/26/jim-bob-duggar-says-smartphones-can-steal-somebodys-soul-strange-quotes-from-new-interview/

Wtf. No self control. And this explains a lot. Can anyone tell me how men are supposed to be leaders yet they need women to baby them and treat them like children. So how is JB a leader? It wouldn't surprise me if Jim Bob gets turned on by a woman at the supermarket or outside. Then he turns to Michelle to dry hump.

The extra set of eyes is bs.. Jinger let Jessa have a frontal hug. I'm sure these kids get away with lots of stuff.

“They don’t pray to God asking for his help. Usually they solve the problem with deceit or manipulation. It’s really teaching how to live your life without God. Even though we watch those shows, we usually have a discussion afterward about how things should have been done differently.” Funny how they didn't do that with Josie. Why didn't you just prat to god to make it better.

[HumblePi]

The extra set of eyes is bs.. Jinger let Jessa have a frontal hug. I'm sure these kids get away with lots of stuff.

 

The sisters are allowed to frontal hug other sisters or other women. It's ony men that they aren't allowed to frontal hug because pressing against a man's penis might sexually arouse him. If the woman sexually arouses any man and he proceeds to assault her sexually, even raping her, then she's to blame. The cult believes that if a woman wears clothing that's not modest, or behaves in a flirtatious manner, if she gets sexually assaulted then it's all her fault. The males are not responsible. This is clearly the thinking of a sect that regards women as lesser beings with no free will. They sexually discriminate, they turn a blind eye to violence or abuse against women, and they condone sexual objectification of women. "keep them barefoot and pregnant and you will receive the Lord's blessings".

 

I feel sorry for the females belonging to cults such as this one. They marry at young ages because they are in love with the idea of love. They have never been allowed to date unless of course they are officially 'courting'. They seek refuge from the confines of their strict patriarchs through marriage. Once they leave the virtual imprisonment of their family, they begin thinking as an indivudual. They begin living a life being able to make choices for themselves. So far, the Duggar women have each married men that are very much like Jim Bob. They're of the same mind as far as their cult religion goes. Their husbands will rule as the patriarch and the women will all be clones of Michelle and pop out a new baby every 2 years. Unless they accept the same life that Michelle has had, they will never be truly happy women.

Edited May 11, 2015 by HumblePi

[HumblePi]

I'm not sure this is the right thread... but I sure as heck don't know where else to ask for help.  I am so CONFUSED!!!  I saw pics of the baby dedication in a church today. Who's church is this?  Cathy's?  Is it still considered to be Derick's church?  Is Jill attending there regularly with him?  I asked about the Church of Jim Bobby recently, because I thought he preached/taught/whatever in his family in his living room.  It was explained that no, they've moved on from the living room and into a warehouse or some such space.  Is JB still preaching/teaching/what-ever-ing in this warehouse?  Is this church open to the general public and do other people worship there as well?  Has Jill now been excused to worship somewhere else? 

 

If they haven't, in fact, made a commitment to Derick's church, why didn't the Rev. Jim Bobby do the baby dedication in the warehouse? 

 

 

 

Since the Duggars aren't true Baptists any longer and have gone even more extreme through Fundamentalist beliefs, they do not worship in any particular 'church'. There have been references made by Michelle about their 'home church'.  It's either someone's home, shop, or warehouse. Jill and Derick Dillard introduced their new son Israel to their local church congregation at his *dedication service. (not a baptism) They do not accept infant baptism, It is done when an individual is considered able to give a genuine profession of faith, but is not generally done with young children or with pre-teens.

 

Here's an excerpt from an article in 2011 after the Duggars all made a trip to Israel during a 20 day vacation the family took. "Amy Duggar revealed that her favorite part of the 20-day vacation was Israel because she and several of the Duggars were baptized while in the Dead Sea." They believe in emmersion baptism and not sprinking of water on the head of the baby, so baptisms for the Duggars take place when the kids are a lot older. The dedication of baby Israel is simply committing him to God. Israel will make his own decision once he's older about whether he chooses to profess his faith or not.

[galax-arena]

Can anyone tell me how men are supposed to be leaders yet they need women to baby them and treat them like children.

Right? Men are apparently such irresponsible weaklings to the point where it's the woman's responsibility to make sure he isn't defrauded. And yet the dude is supposed to be the leader? I expect my leaders to possess more self-control than your average toddler, but that's just me.

[Happyfatchick]

Thanks everybody for the answers to my questions. It wasn't a pass/fail thing, but the answers are good!

I "get" the baby dedication thing, having been raised Baptist myself. Many non-Christening (did I just make another word?) churches do the baby dedication thing as an "alternate", so to speak, because we don't HAVE that MOMENT when we "present" our brand new blessing like in a formal Christening service. It became quite popular several years ago and we jumped all over it. It's actually not a "baby dedication", as it's called. It's actually a vow the parents take (and usually the church body participates by vowing as well) to do all you can to raise said child in the ways of Christ. It was enormously popular to bring your baby for its "dedication" (which is really YOUR dedication) about a month after birth for this service. The last few years, most of the non-Christenening churches have sort of all begun to hold a bigger service for that on Mothers Day, and all the babies born during the past year are dedicated one after the other. All the families come and it's a pretty big deal. (edited because that stupid computer froze...)

My other question, not addressed earlier: I saw the parade of Duggars at that church - I believe last weekend. When they all paraded out there with their violins. The thing is, how on EARTH do they get those kids to DO that? I mean...even Jessa and Ben, and weren't the Josh's there??? I can only IMAGINE the backlash I'd get if I told my grown and married kids we had to DO that. And honestly, some of those kids look like they're just over it. Do they drug them all? Beat them all? Pay them all? What's the incentive for them to be in a circus all the dang time? Do they ever ever ever JUST SAY NO??

Edited May 11, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Happyfatchick]

AND this has been on the outskirts of my brain... just a "niggle" of something a little "off". If JB is the leader in the warehouse and it's closed to outsiders, how did Ben meet Jessa in church? Wasn't that the original story - that he met her in church and kept coming hoping to talk to her more?

[Marigold]

I think the older kids really truly believe in what they are doing. Just like other people look at us and think "what the heck?" 

I think it's corny but that's them. 

 

I'm still mixed up on the church issue.  So are Jill and Derick attending this warehouse church every week? Drums? uh...that isn't gonna work with Jim Bob. 

[Barbie]

AND this has been on the outskirts of my brain... just a "niggle" of something a little "off". If JB is the leader in the warehouse and it's closed to outsiders, how did Ben meet Jessa in church? Wasn't that the original story - that he met her in church and kept coming hoping to talk to her more?

I think that Ben or his father talked to Jim Bob and got his family invited to the home church just so he could meet and talk to Jessa

Edited May 11, 2015 by Barbie

[HumblePi]

AND this has been on the outskirts of my brain... just a "niggle" of something a little "off". If JB is the leader in the warehouse and it's closed to outsiders, how did Ben meet Jessa in church? Wasn't that the original story - that he met her in church and kept coming hoping to talk to her more?

Maybe more information that you really wanted but this is the explanation given on Facebook by Michelle.

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/michelle-duggars-blog/jessa-ben-courtship/

[HumblePi]

If you've never watched the Duggars until recently and have only seen scattered old episodes being rerun on TLC, this video from their 2011 vacation in Israel may be interesting. I'm sorry for the visual of the video since the downloader has formatted it in order not to be pulled for copyright infringement. It's a smaller version but it's the entire episode from that trip.

They stopped at the Jordan River where Jim Bob, Grandma and eight of the kids were re-baptized. Then Jim Bob did the honors of baptizing cousin Amy for the first time. in the Judean desert everybody, except pregnant Michelle took a camel ride, even baby Josie who was only one year old. After the camel ride, the family swim-suited in their 'modest suits' and floated around in the Dead Sea. While Jill and Jessica were swimming, they caught the attention of a male swimmer. Concerned Jim Bob went over like a man-eating shark to protect his daughters and introduced himself to the man flirting with the girls. He told the camera that his girls are so beautiful, they’ve been attracting a lot of attention lately. After floating they covered themselves in the mud from the Dead Sea and grandma Duggar even filled up a big bag of the mud to take home with her. "hey grandma, are you stealing some mud?"  "no, I'm not stealing it, I'm just taking it." Shortly after the camel rides, Josie came down with a viral infection, fever and lung congestion.

 

Michelle had said that Josie has febrile seizures. If they were responsible parents, they would have left Josie back in Arkansas with one of the older children or grandma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN2fmI7i0hk

Edited May 11, 2015 by HumblePi

[JenCarroll]

The extra set of eyes is bs.. Jinger let Jessa have a frontal hug. I'm sure these kids get away with lots of stuff.

 

The sisters are allowed to frontal hug other sisters or other women.

AFAIR, Jinger was chaperoning at Bin's proposal to Jessa. Bin and Jessa kind of frontal hugged (I can't believe I just used that phrase) and Jinger didn't say anything. It's hard to imagine how she could have prevented it, actually, since even if she'd jumped up and run over to them it would have been to late. I guess she was supposed to rebuke them and then rat them out.

[GEML]

You can break things down roughly this way:

Southern Baptists overall are pretty much mainstream. What that means is that if you met someone on the street who was SB, had lunch with them and worked with them for the afternoon, you probably wouldn't notice much more out of the ordinary other than that they were Christian, if that.

Within the Southern Baptist world, however, there are Fundy churches/congregations. These folks will let you know quickly (verbally or otherwise) as well as dozens of other types of Baptist.

Within those Fundy Baptists, there are extreme Baptist Subcultures. The Duggars are one of these. They do not evangelize, for instance.

There are liberal Baptists, too, by the way! :)

And other types of church structure have similar breakdowns, Presbyterians, Methodists, Mormons- even Catholics and Episcopalians. But Baptists are especially interesting since they are always breaking off churches from each other.

[Happyfatchick]

GEML, why don't they evangelize? Why? There are Bible verses that specifically address that (the sharing of ones faith). If the Duggs hadn't been picked up by TLC for the never ending flow of children, they wouldn't really be sharing their faith at all, correct? They'd be a little cult living under a rock in Arkansas. It IS cultish. we've briefly (you and I, at least) hit on them reminding us of the Amish, and this is probably the main way I see it. The Amish don't evangelize, or promote "joining" them in any way. In fact, they don't quite know what to do with someone who wants to become one of them. There are no procedures to make that happen.

On the one hand, the D's are quite verbal about their beliefs and why they do what they do. On the other, they don't evangelize and encourage others to live that life with them. And yet they're all about following the Bible. (The King James one!). Baptists, as a general rule, DO evangelize. Not door to door, so much, but are typically vested in the community and have outreach programs.

And here's why it bugs me, or even makes me notice. Because those deep dish fundie types (like my brother and ESPECIALLY HIS WIFE), looooooooooooooooove to look just far enough over the top of your head that you know they feel superior to you. By not evangelizing, it seems JB (et al) are setting themselves apart. Yes? It's an elite position, to be that close to God, I'm not sure you are worthy.

My other bother is a writer. Once when he had a book published, we were all (ALLL!!!) celebrating and talking about it at a birthday celebration. My sister in law asked what type of book, and he responded "it's a novel. Fictional." She lifted her chin and said, "I don't read fiction; there are just so many other helpful books out there. I'd rather fill my head with something useful."

And then. She died.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[GEML]

It's the old Calvinist idea of the elect. Paul talks about it, and it's been twisted and turned to mean a great many things, but one of the things it can mean to some people is that if you are supposed to be brought in, you will be. You won't be able to fight the urge to be brought in. It will be irresistible to you.

The Duggars do actually do some street evangelism, and they do some follow up from their show. But it's pretty weak tea. They aren't recruiting for Gothard, just more or less general "are you saved" evangelism. They really don't think most people could live how they live. And they are right - most of us couldn't. But it's also not biblically necessary that we should.

[Happyfatchick]

It reminds me of that old adage about medicine:  If a little will do you a "little" good....

 

...so through a Duggar's eyes, WHAT is the goal in that lifestyle?  I mean, I personally feel redeemed.  (Or whatever you choose to call it).  Are they saying I am not, because I don't live like that?  Or are they saying they are more "saved" than the average Christian who also doesn't choose to live like that?  Faith isn't based on works, or clothing, or number of offspring - I think even the Duggars would concede that.  If that is true, then WHY DO they live that life?  You can't get "more" saved, correct?  It's a yes/no equation like a pregnancy test (and they have ample experience with those).  What are they building toward?  What is the ultimate goal?  Does ANYbody understand this?

 

And thank you GEML, as always, you answer my questions so patiently.  :)

Edited May 13, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Vaysh]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, a question for those of you with insight into fundiedom and their general attitudes:

 

Between Josh's job and Michelle's robocall I think it's safe to say that the Duggars (and from what I gather, most fundamentalists) aren't too keen on gay people, transexuals or anyone not fitting into the straight/cis/gender-stereotypical group of people they all seem to exclusively fellowship with. Any attempt to point out that if God created everything then he must've created gay and trans people as well is shot down because God doesn't make mistakes and anything outside of their comfort zone must be a mistake. Gay people are gay by choice (let's pray away that gay!) and transexuals are sexual predators pretending to be women in order to get inside public loos and molest children.

 

So what about people who are intersex? People who are biologically both male and female, either born with the genitals of both sexes or who develop the genitals/breasts of the "opposite" sex during puberty. How do intersex people (or hermaphrodites if you will) fit into the fundie worldview?

 

 

ETA: haha, I just saw that this subject was brought up on the Anna's Having A... thread as well. Great minds think alike... ;)

Edited May 13, 2015 by Vaysh

[kalamac]

From a scientific viewpoint, Eve would have been a transwoman. If you make someone from a part of someone else - which is cloning - they will the exact same DNA, so Eve would have started out as Adam's identical twin clone brother. At some point God would have done something to make her a woman, but that's not how she would have started.

 

And quite frankly, I'm disturbed by the idea that all of life started from two people who were genetically identical. That never goes well. (This is only one of many things that bothers me in the Bible).

[SoSueMe]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, a question for those of you with insight into fundiedom and their general attitudes:

 

Between Josh's job and Michelle's robocall I think it's safe to say that the Duggars (and from what I gather, most fundamentalists) aren't too keen on gay people, transexuals or anyone not fitting into the straight/cis/gender-stereotypical group of people they all seem to exclusively fellowship with. Any attempt to point out that if God created everything then he must've created gay and trans people as well is shot down because God doesn't make mistakes and anything outside of their comfort zone must be a mistake. Gay people are gay by choice (let's pray away that gay!) and transexuals are sexual predators pretending to be women in order to get inside public loos and molest children.

 

So what about people who are intersex? People who are biologically both male and female, either born with the genitals of both sexes or who develop the genitals/breasts of the "opposite" sex during puberty. How do intersex people (or hermaphrodites if you will) fit into the fundie worldview?

 

 

ETA: haha, I just saw that this subject was brought up on the Anna's Having A... thread as well. Great minds think alike... ;)

Yep, I just saw that and googled to find out how often it happens. I was stunned. It sheds a whole different light on the transexual community, at least to me. 

[GEML]

There could be two answers to your question, Happy, and to be honest, I don't know which one is the actual answer, or if it's both. First might be that they are now assured of heaven while the rest of us are not. They are definitely the "elect" while some of us might be, but we don't have the same certainty because we aren't fully aware. That's classic Americanized Calvinistic theology there.

The second answer is very rooted in American (and to some extent, English) theology and that's about rewards in heaven. Because the Duggars suffered more here on earth, they will have more in heaven. Bigger mansions, the starriest crown, a closer role to God, etc. I was taught this one growing up, and I'm sure it doesn't take long to see the inevitable flaw in this theology - if we have only love in heaven, what does it matter what any of us "has?" What does the concept of "has" even mean?

I wasn't a very popular child in my church....

Oh, and don't forget we are descended AGAIN from Noah and his children, including a double dose of Noah's genes through his daughters! ;)

Edited May 14, 2015 by GEML

[Jellybeans]

But GEML, I don't want a big mansion or a starry crown. I wonder if anyone has told them some people don't care about those things.

Are you being literal? See, my aunt is Southern Baptist. Is she fundie-ish? All I know is, she is very weird. And from Louisiana.

[IntoTheMystic]

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. 

I was re-watching the European Honeymoon episode and once again Jim Bob is cherry picking which parts of the bible he wants to abide by. He was discussing how European people tend to kiss each cheek. 

Jim Bob's incredible quote: "The bible says we are supposed to greet everyone with a holy kiss. But we don't really do that in Arkansas." 

I know it's petty on my part to go there, but why on earth are they so 'by the book' when it comes to certain things but then easily dismiss other things so capriciously? If you are going to be literal about THIS verse ... shouldn't you also be literal about THAT verse? 

[Happyfatchick]

I'm sorry (pre-apologizing!) but I have to comment on that kissing thing. I had a half sister (now deceased) who was raised old OLD order Amish and then, early on in their marriage, they bailed. They were afraid to go far (because, like a kid who first finds out about SantanClaus and has friends who still believe... WHAT IF THEY'RE RIGHT?????). So they joined a very low, very conservative Mennonite group. They had black cars only, no radio, no adornment. I mean, seriously, they were BARELY not Amish. We went to church with them one Easter. They were so PROUD to bring us pink and pastel Baptists to church with them! On the way, so nobody else could hear, my Daddy says, "DO.NOT.SAY.A.WORD." What the heck? I'm sure my eyes were as big as planet earth, wondering what the heck I was going to see that I wasn't allowed to question.

We get to church, and the first man who reached my brother-in-law reached for his right hand as a handshake. Draws him in and kissed him DEAD ON THE LIPS!!!!! My eyes nearly popped out of my head! The next guy greets the BIL, and AGAIN, big fat smack on the lips. The whole time we were there, I don't think I blinked, recoding in my brain kiss after kiss after kiss. Only the men, not the women. I'd been warned, yes, but I was SEVEN, and this was just too much! We sat on the women's side and i blurted out "mom, all those men are kissing George on the LIPS!!!!" She whispered to me that yes, they did, because of the Bible verse that instructs us to greet each other with a holy kiss. I was dumbfounded...and pretty certain I was never EVER going to explore being a Mennonite. It did occur to me that if the Bible said that, how come they don't do that at Shady Grove Baptist? But I was too young to ferret it all out, just to know it was too weird for words! Plus, all those Daddies had MAN BREATH! Ewwwww!!!

[lottiedottie]

I think this is the right place for this, but feel free to tell me to move it if it's not. I just watched this clip of Leah Remini talking about leaving Scientology, and I thought it was interesting. It's not Duggar related except for the idea of where she says something about being raised in a certain way of thinking, it's hard to realize there are other ways of doing things (majorly paraphrasing here). At any rate, it made me think of the Duggars and how if there is a kid or two who wants to leave, it must feel like an insurmountable, impossible feat.

http://www.oprah.com/own-where-are-they-now/Why-Leah-Remini-to-Left-the-Church-of-Scientology-Video?FB=fb_own_leah_remini_church_of_scientology

 

I don't know, I just felt like after listening to Leah talk about what a  challenge it was for her (and she has money/resources and is older than the Duggar kids), that it must seem impossible for the Duggars.

[JenCarroll]

That's by far the mildest story of leaving Scientology that I've ever heard. I've done some reading on this; there are accounts by people who were literal prisoners, went through forced divorces, were kept in near-slave labor conditions, the child labor... it gets much, much worse. And yet people did get out. The Duggar kids have a lot more options than these people did.

But I don't disagree that separating yourself from your entire extended family and social network is a very hard thing to contemplate at any age, even if not leaving keeps you in a bad place. I can't really pass judgment on anyone who makes either choice. I'm just grateful I was never in a cult!

Edited May 21, 2015 by JenCarroll

[lottiedottie]

Well, that may be--but I think the broader point is that it is very hard to go against a belief system, particularly one you were raised in. And the Duggar kids don't have any financial resources that they can use to escape. They've been told to believe certain things about themselves, the world, the way things work. It's going to be hard for them to personally challenge that.

[GEML]

Yes, it's difficult, but I think more than anything they have poor financial resources to go and lots of financial resources to stay. I think right now it's less about cult and more about $$$.

[Wellfleet]

Well, that may be--but I think the broader point is that it is very hard to go against a belief system, particularly one you were raised in. And the Duggar kids don't have any financial resources that they can use to escape. They've been told to believe certain things about themselves, the world, the way things work. It's going to be hard for them to personally challenge that.

 

Without a doubt, the most difficult aspect of breaking off from the family would be going against the belief system they've been virtually soaked in since birth. But  personally I think they are light-years away from that. Things would have to become much, much, MUCH more difficult before any of the kids even begin to think about leaving the family. Right now, I don't believe this idea has crossed anyone's mind. Overall they're relatively-content. I don't think anyone would say Life is perfect. I'm sure some wish there was less parental oversight. Maybe some wish they had their own rooms, maybe some of the girls would even like a "secular" job etc. But being disgruntled with life at home is practically in the rule book for teens and early 20-somethings. No, I think overall conditions at the TTH would have to become much worse than they currently are before anyone would even begin to think about breaking away. If that day ever came, $$ would be a secondary consideration. If any Duggar kid really believed conditions were intolerable enough to warrant leaving, I don't think $$ - having it or not - would stop him.

[Rhondinella]

This convo isn't strict about religion, but I can't figure out another place for it to go so I'll let it stand for now, as long as it continues focusing on the idea of breaking away from a religious cult or strong religious upbringing.  Let's not get into the details of Scientology since it's not directly relevant.

[JenCarroll]

Understood, thanks Rhondinella.

[Fuzzysox]

I think this is the right place for this, but feel free to tell me to move it if it's not. I just watched this clip of Leah Remini talking about leaving Scientology, and I thought it was interesting. It's not Duggar related except for the idea of where she says something about being raised in a certain way of thinking, it's hard to realize there are other ways of doing things (majorly paraphrasing here). At any rate, it made me think of the Duggars and how if there is a kid or two who wants to leave, it must feel like an insurmountable, impossible feat.

http://www.oprah.com/own-where-are-they-now/Why-Leah-Remini-to-Left-the-Church-of-Scientology-Video?FB=fb_own_leah_remini_church_of_scientology

 

I don't know, I just felt like after listening to Leah talk about what a  challenge it was for her (and she has money/resources and is older than the Duggar kids), that it must seem impossible for the Duggars.

I saw the exact same thing too.

 

I understood Leah to say that she was raised in her "religion" and had NO clue about the outside world. Now that she is out and about her way of thinking about everything she was taught  has to re-evaluated.  Sounds like she has had to figure out her own why of de-programming herself.

 

Without the de-programming aspect I doubt the Duggars can ever be truly at peace because they don't know any better. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[SadForTheJSlaves]

I actually thought grandparent. The amount of anger JB showed towards his father was just so disproportionate. And how passive his mother was about it. Then we find that Michelle's father was with them for awhile? I don't know, but that whole family was sex obsessed in a weird way, even for Fundy standards. I'm wondering if Josh is the whole puzzle or just a big piece.

 

 

I also got a bad grandfather vibe too.  

 

Where does the speculation on Jim Bob's father originate? Mods, should I move this to another thread?

[Bella]

Where does the speculation on Jim Bob's father originate? Mods, should I move this to another thread?

 

The thread for discussing JB's father isn't clear, but I recommend Other Duggar Kids and Grandma Duggar, which I can retitle.

 

Also ... and this is important ...

 

We are not allowing speculation on whether people other than Josh molested anyone. We know Josh did. It's not fair to others to guess about whether they were harmed anyone in this way.

 

Thanks in advance for abiding by our guidelines.