S16.E16: Clint Watts, Dambisa Moyo, Evan McMullin, Dan Savage & Bari Weiss

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

TOP-OF-SHOW GUEST:  Clint Watts

MID-SHOW INTERVIEW:  Dambisa Moyo

THE PANEL:  Evan McMullin, Dan Savage & Bari Weiss

[babs1226]

Great show tonight.  Disappointed that there was no Overtime

[b2H]

Thought I had heard that he had a show in Vegas this week?

[babs1226]

1 hour ago, b2H said:

Thought I had heard that he had a show in Vegas this week?

 

1 hour ago, b2H said:

Thought I had heard that he had a show in Vegas this week?

Sorry for the double quote. Computer was misbehaving.  Yes, he had to leave for Vegas so no overtime.  Too bad.

[Caseysgirl]

It was a little depressing hearing Bill talk about how  we're going to be stuck with Trump. I don't often agree with Bill but I'm kind of thinking he's right and that we are all  expecting too much from the Mueller investigation. 

[Mr. R0b0t]

Bari has naked pictures of someone, right??  Overall I felt it was a good show and good points were made by all.  I liked that there was spirited discussion that didnt devolve into a shout fest.

[IvySpice]

This is the kind of good show that results when Bill doesn't waste time with Trump apologists. I'd rather have seen a full grown woman vs. Bari Weiss, but sure. OK.

I've been a big Dan Savage fan for decades. His candor about sex work is important.

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, IvySpice said:

I've been a big Dan Savage fan for decades. His candor about sex work is important.

I liked what he said about sex work--though I wish someone had made a clearer distinction between incels and the people he was talking about. Because incels seem to *say* their problem is that they can't get sex because they want the sympathy and respect those people deserve, but really they just hate women. Like they sit around talking about how most women aren't good enough for sex. And they certainly don't think it matters if there are lonely women out there who would like more sex. It's just helping them too much to relate them to people who are genuinely struggling and want a relationship.

Though DS didn't completely conflate them. He did nail the problem talking about misogyny and people feeling entitled to women. And he even rightly said he didn't think sex workers should be obligated to deal with violent hateful incels either.

[crookedjackson44]

I found it astounding that this panel could discuss the rioting on Monday, place the whole blame on Hamas, and politely ignore the fact that the Israelis killed or wounded nearly 3,000 people.  Any other place in the world, and this would be called a massacre.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Caseysgirl said:

I don't often agree with Bill but I'm kind of thinking he's right and that we are all  expecting too much from the Mueller investigation. 

I don't know what anyone should expect. He's not going to be impeached. He's not going to be arrested and thrown in jail. The best I'm hoping for is that everyone knows he's dirty and just stops paying attention to him. And I hope real, credible information comes out before November so every votes to flip congress and he just gets sent to his room for the next two years until we can elect a real president in 2020. 

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Because incels seem to *say* their problem is that they can't get sex because they want the sympathy and respect those people deserve, but really they just hate women.

They're also idiots, something women don't like either. I laughed a little when the guy said, "do some laps and brush your teeth." You really don't have to do that. Have a job and some nominal level of self sufficiency. Not that I think it's always on the man to take the woman out or make the first move, but woman aren't going to make the first move on some slovenly looking dude who is skulking around, and really, if you can take a woman out to the movies and maybe a coffee, that's really enough. The problem is these dudes are getting violent now and something needs to be done about that.

Paying for sex aside, which I'm fine with, you have to really work hard not to get laid. There was craigslist, but get on ok cupid or adult friendfinder and just say you're looking for a hook up. Or tinder ffs. Which circles back around, even if someone emails you looking to hook up, if you don't have your shit together to at least have enough money for the bus to meet up somewhere, they're going to move on. 

22 minutes ago, crookedjackson44 said:

I found it astounding that this panel could discuss the rioting on Monday, place the whole blame on Hamas, and politely ignore the fact that the Israelis killed or wounded nearly 3,000 people.  Any other place in the world, and this would be called a massacre.

Or that the Israeli army/police or whatever shot them all in the leg so they can't walk and throw rock at them. Boo hoo. Wear a helmet. I don't know what that woman was going on about. "Oh they were going to riot anyway." Well, yes. What else are they going to do to show their opposition to moving the embassy? They rioted when it was announced months ago. I'm certainly not sympathetic to terrorist, but Israel isn't clean either. And how obtuse are you? Savage correctly pointed out that the USA didn't extract any concessions from Israel for the move, you know, actual diplomacy and statecraft, and now Abbas is saying that the USA isn't an honest broker, which is true, and won't have a role in the peace process. There's a larger picture here, and she wasn't getting it. She wasn't really getting a lot actually. What does she actually do anyway? They should have had the mid show guest on the panel instead. 

[ganesh]

I think Bill is technically incorrect. When Nixon was investigated, scotus ruled that the president has to comply with a subpeona. Indictment is an open question that would require a separate ruling imo, but I don't think Mueller is going to issue one. 

[iMonrey]

I was kind of annoyed Bill brought up this dumb incel thing again - why is he so obsessed with this? I never even heard of it before he started talking about it. But the panel was so good they managed to get an interesting discussion going about various relatables. There were probably more pressing issues they could have talked about instead, but whatever.

[ganesh]

When people are being killed because of it, I wouldn't say it's dumb. To be fair, he said he brought it up because he specifically wanted Savage's opinion on it, which was actually good. 

[Victor the Crab]

Actually Bill, I wouldn't want to live in a country where the ruling government goes out of its way to treat people like shit. Whether it's someplace that has Sharia Law, or your beloved Israel which treats the Palestinians there like garbage.

Interesting that Bill would go from saying, a year ago, that Drumpf wouldn't finish out the year as president to now saying he's never going to leave. But he does make a point. No one's going to stop the fat orange bastard from doing what he wants. Republicans are too terrified of angering his base of idiots - not to mention he does what they want him to. Democrats can't get their shit together, and even if they do manage to win back the House and Senate - a daunting task, both - won't have the power to impeach him.  Drumpf's just going to continue wiping his fat ass all over the White House and nobody and nothing can stop him. He'll continue serving his term in office - and I wouldn't rule out him getting a second term - never, ever having to pay a price for his evil ways. Just like he always does.

[ganesh]

They can impeach him if they win the House because it's just a majority, but there's no way the Senate would convict. Impeachment is largely political theater the two times it's happened. It would almost be worth it just for the humiliation if Mueller had something good on him, but I'd be worried the racist butthurt vote would come out in droves in 2020. 

[IvySpice]

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he brought it up because he specifically wanted Savage's opinion on it, which was actually good. 

Can we pause for a moment and note that this happens too rarely on panel shows, comedic or otherwise: there is a person on the panel who has spent their career on a particular topic. Make sure you raise that topic with that person and inform viewers of their expertise. 

This is pretty basic hosting, but we don't always learn that one guest has a Ph.D. in Russian history or whatever. I need to know that.

[wknt3]

On 5/19/2018 at 1:20 PM, iMonrey said:

I was kind of annoyed Bill brought up this dumb incel thing again - why is he so obsessed with this? I never even heard of it before he started talking about it. But the panel was so good they managed to get an interesting discussion going about various relatables. There were probably more pressing issues they could have talked about instead, but whatever.

IMHO Bill is smart enough to realize that there is something real and important going on when it comes to issues of gender roles and power dynamics, and is threatened and confused by it, but is completely clueless about the subject. He doesn't understand that for a lot of men this about power, not sex. Even though it has been explained to him many times on the panel by very smart people who are skilled professional communicators he fails to understand the difference between asserting dominance and getting laid. And unfortunately he is lacking in both self awareness and female writers so nothing stops him from trotting out his cluelessness repeatedly.

Edited May 21, 2018 by wknt3

[Robert Lynch]

11 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

Actually Bill, I wouldn't want to live in a country where the ruling government goes out of its way to treat people like shit. Whether it's someplace that has Sharia Law, or your beloved Israel which treats the Palestinians there like garbage.

Interesting that Bill would go from saying, a year ago, that Drumpf wouldn't finish out the year as president to now saying he's never going to leave. But he does make a point. No one's going to stop the fat orange bastard from doing what he wants. Republicans are too terrified of angering his base of idiots - not to mention he does what they want him to. Democrats can't get their shit together, and even if they do manage to win back the House and Senate - a daunting task, both - won't have the power to impeach him.  Drumpf's just going to continue wiping his fat ass all over the White House and nobody and nothing can stop him. He'll continue serving his term in office - and I wouldn't rule out him getting a second term - never, ever having to pay a price for his evil ways. Just like he always does.

That is if he lives past a second term. Judging that's a man in his 70s and not in the image of healthy individual, I wonder how much Trump can take the role of Potus. 

[The Solution]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:55 AM, Caseysgirl said:

It was a little depressing hearing Bill talk about how  we're going to be stuck with Trump. I don't often agree with Bill but I'm kind of thinking he's right and that we are all  expecting too much from the Mueller investigation. 

This just pisses me off and is a prime example of why I hate Bill Maher. When faced with a situation like this, we cannot be all blase and soigne and say "oh, well what are you going to do?" just so you can continue to snark and make money off your tired jokes about the situation. We need to fight Trump's "presidency" and not stop until the "man" is fully discredited and removed from office. This is a complete embarrassment for our Nation and Maher plays right into Trump's hands. Maher is complicit in the continuation of this criminal's time in office.

[scrb]

So Barri is claiming she knows the motivations of the Palestinian protesters when she says they didn't protest because of the embassy to Jerusalem?

Pretty presumptuous.

She's going to define what other people should be outraged about.

[iMonrey]

 I rather approve of Dambisa Moyo's idea that people be required to take a civics test before they are allowed to vote. I know it's intellectually snobbish of me but I wouldn't mind if they had to take an IQ test first as well.

I cringed when Bill brought up his interview with Queen Noor. I remember it well, and he was quite rude to her. He tried to get her to say that royalty was an archaic institution. You don't have to respect any particular institution in order to be polite to someone. It's called manners, Bill. Look it up.

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Maher is complicit in the continuation of this criminal's time in office.

I wouldn't go that far - he's stating a fact. More likely than not, we're stuck with Trump. Doesn't matter if Bill is a pie in the sky optimist and a cheerleader for the resistance, it's still a fact, and Bill is a commentator stating that fact.

[ganesh]

13 hours ago, Robert Lynch said:

I wonder how much Trump can take the role of Potus. 

Yeah, rolling downstairs to work at 11 am must be wearing him down.

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I rather approve of Dambisa Moyo's idea that people be required to take a civics test before they are allowed to vote. I know it's intellectually snobbish of me but I wouldn't mind if they had to take an IQ test first as well.

She also correctly pointed out that she had to take an exam to become a citizen as well. They do teach civics in school; whether it's being taught well might be up for debate. The point remains is that the electorate is ill informed. I suggested making voting mandatory; in other nations the electorate is far more knowledgeable when it is. 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wouldn't go that far - he's stating a fact. More likely than not, we're stuck with Trump. Doesn't matter if Bill is a pie in the sky optimist and a cheerleader for the resistance, it's still a fact, and Bill is a commentator stating that fact.

Bill is going to write jokes no matter who is in office. I think it's probably more difficult to write jokes about Trump tbh. Bill is correct though. It's highly unlikely Trump is removed from office unless he quits, which is also unlikely. There's no way the senate would convict him and his cabinet are his lackeys, so they're not going to invoke the 25th amendment. Bill isn't right about there's nothing we can do though. Get out and vote and flip congress. 

[wknt3]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I cringed when Bill brought up his interview with Queen Noor. I remember it well, and he was quite rude to her. He tried to get her to say that royalty was an archaic institution. You don't have to respect any particular institution in order to be polite to someone. It's called manners, Bill. Look it up.

Now now. Politeness is reserved for those guests who make deliberately incendiary and hateful remarks that suggest that Bill's audience is stupid and un-American. We have to politely and respectfully hear them out and not boo or insult them or tell them to shut the hell up when they shout down the other guests on the panel. Otherwise it's free flowing debate with no rules or restrictions, just bold truth telling without regards for anything but the truth as Bill sees it. That's just basic Real Time etiquette.

[GoldenGirl90]

“New Rule” was funny and depressing at the same time. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have this like-hate relationship with Bill. It's like he'll go one week or maybe two, of being smart and hitting it on the nail in his New Rules, and then he just regresses. He blames Democrats for being weak and not doing enough, and when they prove otherwise, it's not good ENOUGH, or he dismisses them.

New Rules was very depressing, and Bill is acting as if there has been no movement from the left, or the people. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm hoping that he isn't above the law, and that when push comes to shove, something will happen to demonstrate that. I really thought he would come out and state that not even the President is above the law.

Barri just fucking annoys me. Though it was a spirited debate, I couldn't grasp just what she was saying. And wow, Bill caved to her? And I agree with whoever stated it up thread that Barri should have been the mid-show guest, and Dambisa Moyo should have been on the panel.

I love Dan Savage, and interestingly, I've been wondering when he would be on the show again.

[ganesh]

It's been noted before that Bill has been rather uneven since Trump got elected. I don't know if he has really figured out how the show fits in since. Thankfully, he's slowed down the typical talking point blowhards, so that's an improvement. 

There's been some good wins by the Democrats in the special elections, and the House might actually flip, so that's some good news at least. 

I think Bill's point is fair - what are you going to do when he refuses a subpeona or deposition? So you get scotus to rule that the president has to comply (which is legal precedent). He still refuses. Then what? Can you actually arrest the president? Who arrests him?

Hopefully something will happen, but it's hard to imagine the House gop growing a spine. 

[lovinbob]

On 5/19/2018 at 11:19 AM, IvySpice said:

I've been a big Dan Savage fan for decades. His candor about sex work is important.

First comment, from the shallow end of he pool. Dan Savage is so handsome. He exudes intellect and sex appeal and regular appeal. 

Regarding sex work: yes, it was really great to hear his comments about it. I will admit I tend to be, let's say, sexually traditional--some might say prudish, though I wouldn't. I just have a gut resistance to legitimizing sex work, because I believe that system tends to thrive on power imbalance. And because in my gut, I believe that sex is about more than just a physical act. That view is evolving, definitely, but I can't deny that it is in me. HOWEVER, I can't deny that Savage's observations make a lot of sense. It really is not that easy for some people to get laid. There are people who have trouble relating to other people, for a variety of reasons that are frequently not the person's fault. And it does seem true that when people who are somewhat isolated already, adding sexual frustration to the equation compounds the problem. A vicious cycle. Having a legitimate way to gain intimacy, release, affection would seem helpful. 

However ... that requires that the sex buyer has the means to make the purchase. Which once again creates an imbalance based upon wealth. I am going down a long tangent here but all that to say that Savage's insight on this issue is appreciated. 

On 5/19/2018 at 12:41 PM, ganesh said:

Paying for sex aside, which I'm fine with, you have to really work hard not to get laid. There was craigslist, but get on ok cupid or adult friendfinder and just say you're looking for a hook up. Or tinder ffs.

I don't agree. As mentioned above, there are a host of factors that keep people from hooking up. I haven't used these apps, but it would make me nervous for my safety. 

[ganesh]

They have millions and millions of users, and I didn't mention the alternative web sites to them, so I'm just finding it hard to believe even with people who have legitimate issues. There's an additional overwhelming amount of information to guide people through online hookups in terms of safety too. 

[Iguana]

Setting aside the issue of sex workers (I'm all for legalizing, destigmatizing and making it safe for all involved), there's far more to "getting laid" for a lot a people than on-line dating and hookup sites.  Many people are isolated by location, socialization issues, or physical negatives, among other things, and their need for intimacy, companionship or just good old one night stands aren't easily solved.  There are plenty of lonely people out there.

The specific issue with the incels, as I understand it, is less about what they can do to improve their chances of a hookup or whatever, and more about their attitude about women and sex in general.  They appear to view sex as something they are entitled to, just by being males, and are angry that their rights are being denied by society, "lesser men", or whatever.  Women are a commodity to which they should be given effortless access.  As well, it seems that there is quite a bit of "I deserve a 9 or 10, no uggos or fatties are acceptable", ignoring, of course, where he may fall on that same attractiveness scale.

[ganesh]

12 minutes ago, Iguana said:

The specific issue with the incels, as I understand it, is less about what they can do to improve their chances of a hookup or whatever, and more about their attitude about women and sex in general.  They appear to view sex as something they are entitled to, just by being males, and are angry that their rights are being denied by society, "lesser men", or whatever. 

Yes, these people are dangerous which they addressed on the show, and a completely different issue than people with legitimate social anxiety, etc.

Savage was bringing up a larger context. I don't think if these "incels," and I hate the term and feel like when we use it, we (incorrectly) give these people agency, had access to legit sex workers that it would solve anything. They'd probably would be like, "I shouldn't have to pay for it," or something. They seem like a sect of our butthurt white dudes that we talk about here all the time tbh. The problem is that they're violent and killing people. 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder folks, you need to keep this to the show; posts will start being removed going forward.

[Drumpf1737]

On 5/20/2018 at 9:05 AM, iMonrey said:

I know it's intellectually snobbish of me but I wouldn't mind if they had to take an IQ test first as well.

It's scary when people suggest bringing things back that SCOTUS deemed unconstitutional in the last century. Sarah Palin may not know we fought the Germans in WWII but she still deserves to cast a vote.