S13.E22: Exodus

[sarthaz]

1 hour ago, Icarus said:

it did seem very natural and boy did Lucifer twist everything as only an evil psychopath could, all very believable. Surely he would want to believe his “Dad” had some redeeming features. I have seen time and time again how children from split families just want their parents to be good enough so it is okay to love them.

Of course. Dean wanted to believe his Dad had some redeeming features too.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Of course. Dean wanted to believe his Dad had some redeeming features too.

Boom!

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Boom!

I would pay all the money for Dean and Jack to have a  discussion about fathers.

[devlin]

Am I the only one who loved ketch’s “ well hello” to dean. I could watch those two interact all day long. And I choose to interpret ketch saying you finally saved me to be referring to much more than that particular instance but rather saving him and his soul in general 

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems sometimes like Dabb is systematically trying to undo everything good that came before him and replace it with his own, weaker version. And there are a bunch of people surrounding him that are cheering him on and telling him how wonderful he is. I wonder if he has a baseball cap that says Make Supernatural Great Again.

This is hilarious! ???

[MysteryGuest]

Just finished re-watching.  I'm just so done with Lucifer, and this episode was chock full of him.  Add in AU Michael and Gabriel, and that's three archangels too many for my taste.  I'm tired of apocalypses.  I'm tired of Lucifer's whiny "poor me" attitude.  I don't really even get what AU Michael's motivation is, other than he's evil and wants a brand new world to destroy.  He's a pretty one-dimensional big bad, IMO.  

I doubt that Bobby or Charlie will be sticking around next season, so I assume they'll head back to the AU to fix things by the end of next episode.  I'm not sure what's going to happen with Mary and Ketch.  I hate to actually say it, but Ketch has grown on me.  I was immeasurably pleased when he was killed last season, and not happy when I saw he was back this season, but somehow it works.  I wouldn't mind his actually sticking around next season to help with setting up the American version of the MOL that I keep hoping for.  He does have a wealth of knowledge, and if channelled correctly, he could be a big help to our guys.  

I just really want Lucifer gone at the end of this season, along with Michael.  If they want to free our Michael and send him back to Heaven to run things, that's fine, but no more end-of-world storylines.  It really has become a bit of a joke at this point.  They need to go back to saving people, hunting things...please!

[AwesomO4000]

12 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

The AU reminds me of a little show from  days of yore - Under the Dome. 

Oh, man, bad memories here.

I'm still a little annoyed that that show was so well rated at first, because it was on opposite a competing show that was also bad - but in my opinion, awesomely so - that ended up being canceled and we never got to find out what happened just when it looked like things were really going to get even more WtF? awesome.

[mertensia]

I have no problems with Mary wanting to stay. For one thing, she knows her refusal to bring John back led to the state of the AU. I'd feel I had to stay, too.

[Reganne]

I enjoyed the episode until the last 5 minutes.  Killing off Gabriel after just bring him back?  It seems pointless to me.  And if he's not really dead, then that whole scene was just irrelevant anyway.  Then having Sam make the stupid decision to leave Lucifer with Michael.  That was just plain dumb. Now Michael has easy access to their world.  

[Ninamags]

Sam thought Michael would take care of Lucifer. Since Lucifer had been weakened somewhat, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that bad-ass Michael would kill him. 

 

Of course the slime bag would find a way to negotiate his situation to his advantage. 

[Bergamot]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:06 AM, Ria said:

She doesn’t owe her sons anything. She didn’t want to abandon the fight.

Well, as far as owing her sons, she herself admitted to AU Bobby that it is her belief that because of the deal she made, her sons suffered terribly. Even if she has no feelings for them as their mother and no desire to get to know them for her own sake, she might feel that she could try to make up for that now by trying to be there for them.

The problem is the artificial situation created by the rift, in that she can't say I need to finish this fight and then I want to spend time with my sons. It's like she had to decide between staying with the rebels or staying with her sons, and whatever she decided, it would be permanent. (Of course we as viewers know that the rift could be opened again, but I think they were all thinking this would be it.) It made this a stark, all-or-nothing choice, and no wonder Dean and Sam might wonder why whatever was on the AU side of the choice for Mary outweighed never seeing them again. They wouldn't be human if they didn't.

But even setting aside Dean and Sam's needs, watching Mary in this episode just really clarified for me how I dislike the character. I don't know if it is the writing for the character, the actress, or both, but I don't like her. I guess it is possible they could fix the character, but the writers would have to first understand what has gone wrong, and I don't think they do.  I will take further thoughts to the Mary thread though.

[SueB]

Misha's "explanation" for AU Cas: 'I don't know.' (he was being flip)

Full answer:
Misha Solo Panel at JIBCON9 no spoiler

Sounds like the SS thing was wardrobe's doing and Misha just sort of went with it....

[BoxManLocke]

On 11/05/2018 at 7:59 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems sometimes like Dabb is systematically trying to undo everything good that came before him and replace it with his own, weaker version. And there are a bunch of people surrounding him that are cheering him on and telling him how wonderful he is. I wonder if he has a baseball cap that says Make Supernatural Great Again.

Sometimes ? You're too nice.

 

99% of season 13 is about rehashing old shit in a different way or finishing old stuff he deemed not good enough, with BuckLeming as his Alternative Facts specialists.

 

I didn't like much about season 12, but at least Dabb tried new stuff in this one. The amount of stories or characters from earlier seasons brought back in season 13 is staggering.

[millennium]

On Survivor, whenever a bunch of people go off to enjoy a Reward, the miserable folks stuck back at camp almost always start to conspire against them.

What did Sam think was going to happen if he left Lucifer stuck in AW with Michael?   Of course they're going to join forces.

The only surprise in this episode is that Michael didn't somehow slip through the rift at the last moment.

My sense of honor bristled for an instant when Sam double-crossed Lucifer, but then I remembered this is the Devil (as in deal-with-the-devil), who has gained quite a reputation over the ages for screwing people in the end.   So ... right back at ya, guy.

Edited May 12, 2018 by millennium

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, millennium said:

What did Sam think was going to happen if he left Lucifer stuck in AW with Michael?   Of course they're going to join forces.

I think SAm thought Michael was going to kill Lucifer because he did just attack him. That's why Lucifer said he was injured.  Honestly, of course we know as TV viewers that was going to go wrong.  But, it really wasn't that crazy of a thing to do.  Sam and Dean can't kill Lucifer.  Michael can.  They can't trust Lucifer.  Even if they had brought him back through the rift, he probably would have screwed them over somehow there, too.  Plus, Sam is understandably scared of Lucifer, so other side of the rift is always better.

 

6 minutes ago, millennium said:

My sense of honor bristled for an instant when Sam double-crossed Lucifer, but then I remembered this is the Devil (as in deal-with-the-devil), who has gained quite a reputation over the ages for screwing people in the end.

I don't think technically he did double-cross Lucifer. The deal they made was for him to go to the camp with Lucifer and tell Jack that Lucifer brought him back fromt he dead.  He did that. He even went one step further and didn't badmouth him.  It wasn't an open-ended deal for them to be allies forever.

[ZennyKenny]

23 hours ago, Icarus said:

 

23 hours ago, Icarus said:

Again I seem to be out of step with most people here as I thoroughly enjoyed the episode, although there were some quite large gripes I might even think about watching this one again, something I have hardly done for the last season or two.

Honestly I enjoy every episode... but I had to change my mindset about the show. I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't care less about anyone's storylines, ever. Because every time I expect great thing to come from an arc, I'm always disappointed. I think the last straw for me was Demon Dean. I was excited for evil Dean to truly shake things up, and instead I got bad karaoke.

So, instead, I have no more expectations from the show. I just go with the flow. What makes it worthwhile to me is that I truly enjoy watching the actors. They all have such great charisma, and will shine with whatever script they are given (also it helps that they're good people irl, too). But like with faux-Nazi Castiel (or whatever that was supposed to be), I was cracking up and having a good time with it. Because I love Misha collins. Will Dean get possessed in the finale? Will he kill Lucifer? Will he hunt down Chuck in an alien spacecraft that he stole from Area 51? Who cares? Jensen will rock it either way.

Edited May 12, 2018 by ZennyKenny

[Goldmoon]

I decided to sit this season out (while reading these threads) but nearing the finale, I thought I would stop in and see the eps to lead up to it.  I couldn't get through last week's ep without ff-ing and I am yet to finish this week's.  These are so BADLY done.  I was planning to binge watch this season on Netflix but if the finale doesn't impress me, I don't think I will bother with any more of anything SPN.

[millennium]

44 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

  I couldn't get through last week's ep without ff-ing and I am yet to finish this week's.  These are so BADLY done.  

They even forgot to use color film for most of the episode.

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, millennium said:

They even forgot to use color film for most of the episode.

You're kidding, right?

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/11/2018 at 4:54 PM, SueB said:

Sorry, I feel like I'm quibbling.... he said it BEFORE AUMichael took his grace.  I think AUMichael was taunting him about his strength:
 

Again, just could be an excuse.  Lucifer lies like a rug.

transcript from the supernaturalwiki.com

Canon!  It works for me.

What is with kids and their lol canon and misinterpretation these days... deliberate misquoting of Sheriff from "Larp and the Real Girl".

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/11/2018 at 7:57 AM, companionenvy said:

I tend to agree with you in most cases, but literally impersonating another person seems a different matter than other kinds of deception, to me. . I also think it depends on the level of trust that is presumed to exist in the relationship. On the show Once Upon a Time, there is one plot in which a woman kills and then impersonates a character's wife, and another plot in which a witch disguises herself as a young woman and then seduces a man into a one night stand. In both cases, the goal is pregnancy, and both incidents are sometimes called rape by fandom. I think only the first is, because there was a pre-existing intimate relationship between the supposed partners of the affair, whereas in the second, the man didn't know and had no real reason to trust the young woman he was supposed to be sleeping with either. It was deception, not rape.

Kelly was in the first category, in my eyes. There was no reason for her to think her long-term lover, who she apparently trusted, was anything other than what he appeared to be, and Lucifer took advantage of that. 

This is...an excellent point. Unless Sam and Dean were willing to stay, they wouldn't have had the advantage of their experience even if they found the bunker, but that doesn't seem like a compelling enough reason for everyone else to take off through a magic portal. Especially as Sam and Dean's ability to stop the apocalypse in their world had to do with them being vessels, and no one has indicated that Dean is a vessel of AU-Michael (although I'd imagine he could be), that AU-Michael has any interest in our Dean, or that a Swan Song scenario is being contemplated by anyone as a possible solution to their problems. So it is hard to see what useful information the Winchesters could be expected to offer. 

Sam and Dean were trying to get Mary home so they all would not be stuck.  That was the point of the stupid plan from their perspective. From the writers'' perspective they needed to increase drama and tension by having a cast of twenty-five stroll through the rift.  It was like watching the Hebrews leisurely stroll across the parted Red Sea. And of course the action had to move stateside.  This kind of LOL writing happens because of their habitually pacing issue.  The paving issue happens because The network likes motw yet you need the mytharc to hang the season on unless you are a police procedural like Law and Order that can go on forever ripping stories from the headlines.

And if Chuck really hates us when AU Michael dies maybe we will be stucknwirh Charlie Sue and Bobby again. He has become too cliche and she is a walking Mary Sue trope. 

On 5/11/2018 at 1:59 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems sometimes like Dabb is systematically trying to undo everything good that came before him and replace it with his own, weaker version. And there are a bunch of people surrounding him that are cheering him on and telling him how wonderful he is. I wonder if he has a baseball cap that says Make Supernatural Great Again.

Extremely funny comment.

On 5/11/2018 at 12:47 PM, BabySpinach said:

I have to agree a bit, seeing all those people together in the bunker was weirdly gratifying. It made me think of season 1, and how it used to just be Sam, Dean, and John hunting one single demon. Things have certainly changed, for better and for worse, but I'm always a sucker for big groups of scrappy, embattered people united and having some down time for once.

It made me think of the gang before Abandon All Hope...

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/11/2018 at 11:08 AM, Lemuria said:

N-no music?  No shirtless montage?  Sacrilege!

Thanks, Castiel's Cat.

Sure.  The lack of Dean mechanic montage was sacrilege.

Meh.  It was fine.  More or less.  Straight line to Dean!Michael.  

The most cringe worthy parts were so bad I laughed.  Charlie Sue is just so bad.  I was hoping Nazi Cas would terminate her.

13 hours ago, Ninamags said:

Sam thought Michael would take care of Lucifer. Since Lucifer had been weakened somewhat, it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that bad-ass Michael would kill him. 

 

Of course the slime bag would find a way to negotiate his situation to his advantage. 

Cut out his tongue, cut his throat and stab him repeatedly so he can not heal and talk his way out of it.Then leave him for Michael.  That is how it is done.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/11/2018 at 10:54 AM, sarthaz said:

I watched it. That's about all I can say about it. Although I'm curious to know how Lucifer can resurrect the dead and disintegrate angels with him mind, but his Kryptonite is apparently Sam giving him the Heisman?

He munched on Michaels troops to resurrect Sam.  He probably ate some more afterwatds.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/11/2018 at 9:26 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Sort of related, they also had the eyes burned out of everyone who saw angel grace. Then Dean stabbed Zachariah in his face while looking directly into his eyes and... nothing.  I had SUCH high hopes that would lead to something awesome for Dean, but nope. 

It was thrilling until Gamble took it away in season 7 even if it was Met protecting Castiel.  Then they fell and everyone has a blade and now there are only eight left but they work on demons.

On 5/11/2018 at 8:43 AM, catrox14 said:

I think he believed that Sam killed him.

How.

Earlier in the episode he was screaming at Gabriel to kill him because he knew that Gabriel was the only one that could kill him with an archangel blade.

This is canon...

Until Dean picks up an archangel blade and stabs Lucifer and it works.

[Res]

6 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

1. The most cringe worthy parts were so bad I laughed.  Charlie Sue is just so bad.  I was hoping Nazi Cas would terminate her.

2. Cut out his tongue, cut his throat and stab him repeatedly so he can not heal and talk his way out of it.Then leave him for Michael.  That is how it is done.

1. Right there with you. I think I hate her even more now and I didn't think that was possible.

2. I don't know. I really think you are letting off too lightly but at least it's something.

[bozodegama]

I don’t know, am I the only person in Supernatural that thinks Lucifer is hysterical?  There’s got to be one other person. Everyone hates him.

[Pondlass1]

But do we really want a Lucifer who's hysterical?  We're running out of actual dangerous menacing baddies on this show.  Even the psychopath is redeemed.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t know, am I the only person in Supernatural that thinks Lucifer is hysterical?  There’s got to be one other person. Everyone hates him.

I "liked" Lucifer in s5 who  was sarcastic and the humor came from the writing of ths scenarios and the ironies more than him trying to be funny.  Of course that was when Ben Edlund was around and IMO influenced the humor in that dark, clever way. 

I hated the Lucifer hallucinations in s7 because they veered to far into silliness and no real menace.  I will say that I thought he was actually scary again in the previous episode when he got out of the magical handcuffs. But then they put him into "woe is me, I'm so put upon in life" in this episode that I realized that was a blip.

I will also say that I think the actor that played President Jeff was a REALLY good Lucifer and he was scary and the humor came from him with 'Sam, we've gone through this SO MANY times".  That line had to be delivered in the right way for it to land and I think President Jeff's actor nailed it. He was so annoyed that Sam and Dean were trying to beat him.  I remember that legit made me laugh and in a good way. 

If they could get Lucifer back to being that kind of character and then only use him like 5 episodes a season and then torture and kill him before the end of the series I could live with it.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I hated the Lucifer hallucinations in s7 because they veered to far into silliness and no real menace. 

I didn't mind Hallucifer because that wasn't real Lucifer.  For whatever reason Lucifer singing was the best Sam's psyche could come up with.  And, he was only in 4 episodes. Actually, I would say he was pretty creepy in Meet the New Boss and hello Cruel world.

But, in general, I think SPN does best with villains that we don't see too much of.  

[S Cook Productions]

3 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t know, am I the only person in Supernatural that thinks Lucifer is hysterical?  There’s got to be one other person. Everyone hates him.

I like him. IA with you. 

[sarthaz]

11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He munched on Michaels troops to resurrect Sam.  He probably ate some more afterwatds.

I understand how he got so strong. I don't understand how a couple Hadokens from Angry Black Michael render him so incapacitated that Sam can toss him aside like a rag doll.  Over and over, they've reinforced that Lucifer's powers are way more than anyone anticipates, as he breaks warding and disintegrates angels and frees himself from angelcuffs and eats angels for afternoon snacks before resurrecting the dead ... but Sam keeps him from following his son through the rift by ... pushing him?  Sure ...

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I understand how he got so strong. I don't understand how a couple Hadokens from Angry Black Michael render him so incapacitated that Sam can toss him aside like a rag doll.  Over and over, they've reinforced that Lucifer's powers are way more than anyone anticipates, as he breaks warding and disintegrates angels and frees himself from angelcuffs and eats angels for afternoon snacks before resurrecting the dead ... but Sam keeps him from following his son through the rift by ... pushing him?  Sure ...

It's the same deal as with Cas; he's only as weak or as strong as the plot wants/needs him to be.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Actually, I would say he was pretty creepy in Meet the New Boss and hello Cruel world.

I agree with you. Hallucifer's "humor" there was often horrifying after you figured out what the "joke" meant. I also found him creepy and effective in "Repo Man." He seemed like he was trying to be so reasonable, but what he was really doing was getting Sam to "accept" him and thereby fall apart. It was basically Sam's mind giving up... "Why are you fighting this so hard? You know you're really a basket case, so why not just give into it?" Which is pretty much what ended up happening.

And that's pretty much what Lucifer was doing here with Michael I think: sounding reasonable and accommodating, when I doubt that's what he really has in mind at all.

For me often the subtle evil - the one I don't expect because it comes from an argument that appears so reasonable - is the more horrifying, because I can also see how the argument could be made that it makes sense. (Thanos from The Avengers: Infinity War is the most recent example.)

[Commando Cody]

8 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t know, am I the only person in Supernatural that thinks Lucifer is hysterical?  

I like him. I did get a little tired of him in this episode, but I have always liked the character in general. 

[MysteryGuest]

I just think Lucifer has run his course.  He was effective in the beginning, and I didn't mind him through Sam's hallucinations.  But since he's been freed from the cage, he's driven me crazy.  While Crowley was evil, and did some truly horrible things, it was believable that he didn't just kill Sam and Dean, outright.  He knew they were more valuable to him alive, so he used them and they used him and an alliance of sorts was formed.  Lucifer has no such respect or need for the Winchesters, so it's just patently absurd each and every time he doesn't just snap his fingers and make them disappear.  Maybe if we got him in smaller doses, I wouldn't be so done with him, but he ruined last season for me and I just want him to go away.  I'm ready for something new.

[BoxManLocke]

Yeah I'm going to need a little bit more than hysterical if a character is going to have an entire two-year arc built around him.

 

Emphasis on the around him : he is in fact so hysterical he's been intentionally kept out of Sam and Dean's way as much as possible and left to do his own thing, as all he does is fuck up the tone whenever he pops up in a serious scene because they can't write him any other way.

 

Rowena has her crazy side too when you can see the writers are enjoying themselves, but they also tone it down when she's interacting with the brothers or having an emotional moment. That's the difference between most characters on SPN and Lucifer, who is the definition of one-dimensional.

[SueB]

9 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I don’t know, am I the only person in Supernatural that thinks Lucifer is hysterical?  There’s got to be one other person. Everyone hates him.

Oh I think he’s generally funny all the time.  But I’m ready to move on from the state he’s in.

 

I will say I think the S12 early episodes kinda undermined the character for me.  I think @BoxManLocke hit the issue — it’s how they’ve used Lucifer in the story.  I think he’s reliably in ‘misbehaving snarky toddler’ mode, but there are times when I would have preferred he demonstrate his malice.  We’ve gotten that on a few occasions and it’s been great.  So, I guess I wish they had let him be more mercurial— where at anytime he could go super dark really quickly so I felt more on edge. There are whole scenes where I never felt the characters with him were going to die.  

But I think Pelligrino has done a great job.  Although it’s also possible that some distaste I have for the actor biases me.  

[Bergamot]

28 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Yeah I'm going to need a little bit more than hysterical if a character is going to have an entire two-year arc built around him.

 

Emphasis on the around him : he is in fact so hysterical he's been intentionally kept out of Sam and Dean's way as much as possible and left to do his own thing, as all he does is fuck up the tone whenever he pops up in a serious scene because they can't write him any other way.

 

Rowena has her crazy side too when you can see the writers are enjoying themselves, but they also tone it down when she's interacting with the brothers or having an emotional moment. That's the difference between most characters on SPN and Lucifer, who is the definition of one-dimensional.

Well, I know that the writers would agree that Lucifer is hysterical; their obvious belief that he is incredibly funny and entertaining must be one of the reasons we are still stuck with the character, long after his sell-by date. His smugness and whiny self-absorption and self-pity are no longer funny to me, if they ever were, and his act is so far past being stale that he is verging on fingernails-on-a-chalkboard levels of irritation for me.

I can't remember if I ever really felt that Lucifer was scary, but at least in the beginning I could take him seriously as a character. I went back today and watched some scenes with Lucifer from "Abandon All Hope" which I remember really liking.

:Castiel meets Lucifer

Sam and Lucifer talk

Comparing the Lucifer from that episode to the one we have now, I think it is obvious that something has gone really wrong with the character; something important has been lost, although it is hard for me to put into words what it is. He is such a buffoon now, with all the mugging and the "look at me, I'm so cute" jokiness. I tried to imagine the Lucifer in "Abandon All Hope" trying to give someone a high-five, as he just did in this last episode, and I absolutely couldn't.

Unfortunately, the writers have made it clear how much they love Lucifer, so I don't believe we will ever be free of him. But I can no longer take him or his story seriously, and I think the writers' devotion to him has hurt the show.

[MysteryGuest]

I think I still harbor some resentment toward Lucifer for the demise of Crowley.  They insisted on having Crowley only interact with Lucifer toward the end, and their scenes were just repetitive and boring.  And Crowley was made to look the fool too many times.  It did a lot of damage to his character, I think.  And then when Mark S. left and Mark P. got even more screen time than Mark S. ever had, I have to say it pissed me off.  I'd still take Crowley back in a heartbeat.  

[S Cook Productions]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Oh I think he’s generally funny all the time.  But I’m ready to move on from the state he’s in.

 

I will say I think the S12 early episodes kinda undermined the character for me.  I think @BoxManLocke hit the issue — it’s how they’ve used Lucifer in the story.  I think he’s reliably in ‘misbehaving snarky toddler’ mode, but there are times when I would have preferred he demonstrate his malice.  We’ve gotten that on a few occasions and it’s been great.  So, I guess I wish they had let him be more mercurial— where at anytime he could go super dark really quickly so I felt more on edge. There are whole scenes where I never felt the characters with him were going to die.  

But I think Pelligrino has done a great job.  Although it’s also possible that some distaste I have for the actor biases me.  

Hmmm. Then maybe I’m biased in the other direction because of that. It’s possible.

I met Pellegrino at a con in January and he was absolutely delightful. He was so friendly to both my husband and I. We had only planned to get a photo op (with him and Misha), but he was so generous and fun and funny, that we then decided to also get an autograph. Plus I think he’s a great actor. So I do see and understand the complaints about Lucifer’s story possibly getting stale- but find I still enjoy him. 

[Jonesy]

With Pellegrino I think he's a strong actor and has been fine this year.  Could they bring out the evil more?  Yes but I do think they've shown that too.  I'm fine when they also use the devilish humor with him.

[gonzosgirrl]

Mark P is a great actor. It's the character that is long past its sell-by date. IMO.

[sarthaz]

Season 5 Lucifer was spectacular. Season 7 was pretty good too.  Seasons 11-13, though, are just brief moments of fun drowning in cartoonish nonsense.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:28 PM, catrox14 said:

I "liked" Lucifer in s5 who  was sarcastic and the humor came from the writing of ths scenarios and the ironies more than him trying to be funny.  Of course that was when Ben Edlund was around and IMO influenced the humor in that dark, clever way. 

I hated the Lucifer hallucinations in s7 because they veered to far into silliness and no real menace.  I will say that I thought he was actually scary again in the previous episode when he got out of the magical handcuffs. But then they put him into "woe is me, I'm so put upon in life" in this episode that I realized that was a blip.

I will also say that I think the actor that played President Jeff was a REALLY good Lucifer and he was scary and the humor came from him with 'Sam, we've gone through this SO MANY times".  That line had to be delivered in the right way for it to land and I think President Jeff's actor nailed it. He was so annoyed that Sam and Dean were trying to beat him.  I remember that legit made me laugh and in a good way. 

If they could get Lucifer back to being that kind of character and then only use him like 5 episodes a season and then torture and kill him before the end of the series I could live with it.

I though Rick Springfield delivered myself.

On 5/13/2018 at 9:41 AM, Res said:

1. Right there with you. I think I hate her even more now and I didn't think that was possible.

2. I don't know. I really think you are letting off too lightly but at least it's something.

The whole point of Bizarro Inglorious Bastards was to foreshadow Michael vs Michael I suspect.  At least they had fun.

Dean and I should schedule a play date... wait maybe MoC Dean... no demonic Dean... 

[FlickChick]

I agree that Rick Springfield did a great job with the role. I just agree with many others that the character should either be a serious menace/threat without all the antics or be gone.

[trudysmom]

After re-watching, I found only a couple of nits to pick.  One, Mary saying "I know what you went through to get here (sic)".  Really?  You do?  So you know about Dean's desperation  leading him to put a gun to the head of scared teenage girl?  You know about love potion witches, and Rowena's failed double cross, dealing with her trying to get her son back from Death? The many, many fights and beatings the guys were in? The toll the frustration has taken on both of them, not to mention the the most recent trauma, Dean watching Sam get attacked and believing him dead--again? You know all this Mary?  You don't know dick.  Shut up.

Second, Raider of the Lost Ark-ripped-off-Cas.  Just no.  Are they trying to make us hate him? Or turn him into such a joke that  he's not even a viable character any more?  Ugh.  

Loved Dean the mechanic, the leader, the relieved big brother, and the subtle nuance on his face when Mary said that stupid, stupid line "I know what you went through...".  So talented.  

Sam trying so hard to keep the relationship he forged with Jack, but being upstaged by Asshat Lucifer, again, subtle but spot on.  

Overall, not a bad episode.

Did I mention I hate Mary?

[ahrtee]

Where did they get the gas for the bus?  Just curious.  I don't think we've seen anyone drive anything motorized in the AU (though I'd imagine they'd come in handy to get past angry vamps.)  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

One, Mary saying "I know what you went through to get here (sic)".  Really?  You do? 

On board with your whole post, but this? This might be the most tone-deaf line written since Mary's return. It was the final nail in her coffin for me. I'm only sorry she didn't get splinched* in the jump back through the rift.

*random Harry Potter reference. :)

[Bergamot]

A couple scenes that I liked in my re-watch:

The little scene where Sam says to Dean that he is sorry, and Dean tells him that he has nothing to apologize for. Just a small, quiet little scene, very understated, but with hidden depths of genuine emotion. Well-directed and well-acted -- nicely done!

Gabriel laying out the truth for Lucifer about why he was locked up by God -- "Don't you get it?" I liked the metaphor of Lucifer as a cancer on humanity. A good scene, unfortunately ruined at the end by Lucifer, unbelievably, getting all teary-eyed. What is he crying about, anyway?  Do the writers seriously think they can give us at this point a Lucifer who is a poor little unloved woobie? Cry me a river, Lucifer!

Of course, as has already been pointed out, it would have been helpful if Gabriel had been this articulate about Lucifer while Jack was there to hear it. But see, that's one of the writers' guilty little secrets (and this is not the first time they have done this): when you can't or won't do the work of making an adversary actually formidable, by writing them as sharp, clever, cunning and ingenious, you take the easy way out by instead dumbing down the good guys.

Because let's face it, Lucifer would not have gotten anywhere in this episode if everyone else had not been stuttering and stumbling and bumbling about every time he opened his mouth. It's not that Lucifer was all that smart, it's just that the good guys were stupid --and I hate it when the show does that.
 

2 hours ago, trudysmom said:

One, Mary saying "I know what you went through to get here (sic)".  Really?  You do?

 

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On board with your whole post, but this? This might be the most tone-deaf line written since Mary's return. It was the final nail in her coffin for me.

I think for me it was when Mary tells Dean to "go easy on Jack", because he's been "fighting a war" and has "lost people". Really Mary? Do you have any idea who you are speaking to with your self-satisfied little lecture? Yeah, that was definitely the worst Mary moment for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

59 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I think for me it was when Mary tells Dean to "go easy on Jack", because he's been "fighting a war" and has "lost people". Really Mary? Do you have any idea who you are speaking to with your self-satisfied little lecture? Yeah, that was definitely the worst Mary moment for me.

Yes, this too - though I'd largely tuned her out by then. But seriously, Mary Winchester (Andrew Dabb edition) lecturing anyone on how to treat and/or talk to a kid is bullshit, let alone the child who raised her other child thanks to her mistakes. Having her talk down to Dean about how it feels to be fighting a war and losing people is so absurd as to be laughable.