Social And Race Issues In Black-Ish

[Mozelle]

This is from a while back. Why would you guys need pools? Wouldn't you have watering holes and ponds that can be swum in? Is it a climate thing? In my country, very few swimmers I know actually learnt in pools.

 

As stacey answered, it really depends on the region in which one grows up. I grew up in Los Angeles. The only bodies of water available to me were either neighborhood pools or beaches. My great aunt and great uncle lived in a super swanky neighborhood and when we would visit, we would get the opportunity to swim there. However, they weren't frequent visits, and we didn't always get in the pool. That's why I'm always grateful for organizations like the Boys and Girls Club because it was through their summer program that I learned to swim. 

 

Do the two things have to be exclusive, though?  I may be hopelessly naive, but it seems to me that any show with a black cast (aside from a few supporting characters) and is about "black stuff", but that makes non-blacks think "hey, I can relate to that" can only be a good thing.  Like Diane's hair...I'm white, but I have extremely thick, long, curly hair.  Straightening it may take longer initially, but it's much easier to take care of when it's straight than when I let it do it's thing.  So yeah, I related to those scenes, even the one where the combs got stuck in Diane's hair, because that happened to me more than once as a child. These days, with racial tensions so high in certain parts of the country, it seems to me that there's nothing wrong with exploring  some of the similarities between the races, instead of focusing on what's different.

 

So, what I meant, and why I used Living Single in my example, is that I think there's a difference between creating episodes that seem specific about "teaching" and episodes where the writers are not making this "educational" moments. I don't know what the show demographics were for Living Single, but I have high doubts that the audience was 100% black, which means that non-blacks watching it probably found it funny as well as relatable in some shape, way, or form. But it was never this show that was about teaching non-black people about blackness (or things that may be more specific to blackness). That's what I'm afraid could happen with Black-ish.

 

Believe me. I adore this show already, so my complaints are not anything that's going to make me walk away from it.

[romantic idiot]

Thanks for the explanation, guys. I'm always confused about what we are called. 

 

I think it depends. My mom pressed my hair for a lot of years--maybe until I was 12--and I had thick, densely-packed hair that fell a few inches past my shoulders. She switched me up to relaxers around that time and I used relaxers up until three, almost four, years ago. My hair was less dense than it was in my youth during that time, but I was still able to retain length. I only made the decision to stop using relaxers after a bad braid install in late 2007 that eventually made me cut my actual hair into the Victoria Beckham bob in February 2008. From then until January 2011, I was having difficulty retaining any length beyond the shoulder-length bob I'd been sporting from the time of that major cut. I made the decision to grow out of my relaxer at that point.

Oh agreed, that a relaxer (which I'm guessing is some sort of chemical straightening thingie that is becoming popular here) would seem to be just as bad as all that heat. I guess my question was that wouldn't both things be really bad for your hair, especially when done from a very young age? 

[BoogieBurns]

wouldn't both things be really bad for your hair, especially when done from a very young age?

 

Yep. Both things are bad for your hair. But bleach is bad for hair too, and plenty of people get highlights.

Oh agreed, that a relaxer (which I'm guessing is some sort of chemical straightening thingie that is becoming popular here) would seem to be just as bad as all that heat.

A relaxer is chemical straightening, you guessed correctly.

[Nessie]

So, what I meant, and why I used Living Single in my example, is that I think there's a difference between creating episodes that seem specific about "teaching" and episodes where the writers are not making this "educational" moments. I don't know what the show demographics were for Living Single, but I have high doubts that the audience was 100% black, which means that non-blacks watching it probably found it funny as well as relatable in some shape, way, or form. But it was never this show that was about teaching non-black people about blackness (or things that may be more specific to blackness). That's what I'm afraid could happen with Black-ish.

 

Believe me. I adore this show already, so my complaints are not anything that's going to make me walk away from it.

Gotcha.  Thanks for explaining what you meant, and I agree 100%.

[jhlipton]

Dre's mom was all about her Zulu/Cherokee heritage (of course, she had to throw some "Indian" in the mix)

And it's almost always Cherokee, isn't it? LOL

 

 

I didn't pay attention to how much my hair thinned out while I had a relaxer until I went natural in 2009.  I'm not balding or anything, but my hair definitely isn't as thick as it was.

 

Relaxers certainly contributed to my wife's balding. And it's too bad, because I love her fuzzy hair.

 

I don't know what the show demographics were for Living Single, but I have high doubts that the audience was 100% black, which means that non-blacks watching it probably found it funny as well as relatable in some shape, way, or form.

I'm as white as one can get and I loved Living Single. The romance between Overton and Sinclair, the rivalry between Max (who was my favorite character) and Kyle, and just the fun of it made it a joy to watch.

[nicepebbles]

Was it just me thinking Bow and Dre should not have the "is he being racist discussion?" in front of white people? That just struck me as somebody is going to come off looking crazy. You huddle up and have that kind of convo in private. Make sure everyone is on the same page. Or not in this case. This is something all groups of people should do (huddle up) when in mixed company. Everybody doesn't have to agree obviously. And part of the convo will probably involve asking will you have my back if I say something and you disagree.

[DrSparkles]

I love this show, I love this discussion & "Good Hair" was a great movie! I'm a 50 yo white woman who almost loses her mind sitting in the chair for 1.5 hours for a cut/color!

[CurbUrEnthusiasm]

I thoroughly, fully enjoyed that scene between Pops and (D')Alicia and I wanted it to go on for MUCH longer - I could watch those two all day. It was the highlight of the episode for me - so touching, nuanced, and beautifully acted by Laurence and Anna. Moreover, it brought some insight into the characters and the social issues they've had to encounter. That glass ceiling remark from Alicia really hit home. 

 

I also really appreciated that crazy dinner scene. Beyond the chaos and histrionics, there was essentially an underlying debate about "blackness", respectability politics, and whether there are "good" or "bad" types of black people, which is a very relevant topic concerning the black community (and something I've grappled with myself). I thought the AV Club's take on the scene was quite interesting:

 

"The interesting thing here is that it’s not just a typical ”in-laws disliking in-laws” fight but the central conflict is much deeper and more serious than something so superficial. The conversation turns into a discussion about “good” and “bad” blacks (Rainbow and Andre, respectively). There is, as Rainbow puts it, “a rich panoply of different ways to experience blackness” (“None of which include the words ‘rich panoply’,” Dre retorts) which is, of course, true and I admire Black-ish’s commitment to putting so many different types of blackness on screen—Rainbow’s mixed race and privileged upbringing, Andre’s poor upbringing, Junior’s nerdiness, Zoey’s narcissism, etc—rather than just the black characters who generally populated television for so long (criminals, criminals with a secret heart of gold, athletes, shucking and jiving comedic relief). To separate them into “good” and “bad” is incredibly simplistic, but it’s truthfully how Andre sees the world (and I understand why) and it’s clear that he has a bit of resentment and insecurity surrounding this that causes him to be so immediately defensive. It’s a really smart and well-done scene, cutting to the heart of the matter seemingly out of nowhere but then resolving it without a long, heartfelt discussion."

 

On a random note, I ADORE the music on this show. Where else do I get to hear Jagged Edge on a TV show?! Much love. 

[ribboninthesky1]

I liked the Pops/D'Alicia scene as well, especially since there was clearly resentment that D'Alicia would DARE take up with a white man in an effort to improve her quality of life.  And because he didn't recognize the extra penalty of being a woman on top of black, she had to break it down to him.  I agree, I'd like to have seen more. 

 

It is interesting that both mothers were originally against the marriage, but only Andre's mom has consistently tried to undermine their relationship. I also thought Andre's reaction to her parents vs Bow's reaction to his, the mother, in particular, was very telling.  It's played for laughs, but Bow seemed to want to tackle the issues with his mother from a spirit of cooperation, while Andre didn't even want to let her parents into the house.  I'm not sure the show realizes it's exposing gender dynamics and maybe underlying sexism as well.     

 

I do think the show has an implicit bias in exploring blackness because it's Andre's point of view, for the most part.  For example, he seems to tolerate Dre's nerdiness, but hasn't sought to share it much with him. Not saying that he has to love Lord of the Rings, but watching it with Junior wouldn't kill him. So yes, Junior is shown as nerdy, but he's also the goofy sibling that's usually the butt of the joke or derision.  

 

Andre also declared Bow as not really "black," though that didn't stop him from marrying and procreating with her. It's an interesting juxtaposition to the judgment D'Alicia faced for marrying her husband.  So Andre and D'Alicia presumably both married "up," in their own ways.                

[ridethemaverick]

I was confused about D'Alicia "marrying up." Was Bow's father rich when she married him? There was no back story on him so I didn't know if I missed something there.

[ribboninthesky1]

It wasn't specified, but it seemed implied that, at the very least, he was in better financial position that her mother was when they married. 

[pookat]

I thought that scene between Alicia and Pops was also very raw and brave. Alicia's remark about the apostrophed name also reminded me of the discussion in this thread we had earlier about names. I continue to be impressed by how willing they are to go there.

I wanted to toss this out to the group. A friend of mine was quite bothered that the show seemed to imply that Alicia "married up" by marrying a white man. She felt that the show needed to make it clearer that Alicia married Beau Bridges out of love rather than a desire to improve her life, especially as it involved a white man.

I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility and I disagreed that the show was trying to imply any of those things. I took that scene as being an amazing representation of some of the real, raw things that are said to people when they marry outside their racial or ethnic group.

I hate to admit that I ever watched them, but back in the 90's, that was a staple of talk shows like Ricki Lake. The accusations of betrayal to one's culture were always thrown around. I saw Pops' comment as more of that, while Alicia, IMO, was coming at it from a perspective of finding someone who shared her values no matter what his ethnic background was.

For the record, I thought Alicia was spot on in calling out the bias she would or had faced because of her name. My take on it was that she wasn't actively trying to marry up as Pops accused her of, but looking for a society (hippie subculture, in this case) that would see her as a full human being, regardless of gender or race, and wanting the same for her daughter.

My friend and I discussed it for awhile and ultimately agreed to disagee. I think that our own personal experiences color how we may see things (she is white and Jewish, while I am brown and visibly Muslim). We both have experiences being part of groups that have been discriminated against, but in ways that are wholly different from the other and definitely different from what African-Americans face every day.

It occurred to me that neither Alicia nor I will ever experience the simple "advantage" of white privilege, no matter what our names are, how much education we pursue or what our financial status is. So, IMO, the show wasn't in any way implying that marrying white=marrying up because one will never be able shake ingrained racism until society changes completely.

Edited March 8, 2015 by pookat

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm sure D'Alicia loves her husband.  That said, at the time when they married (presumably late 60s/early 70s), being a white man very clearly meant there were privileges that black men didn't have (it's better than it was, but this is still true).  Granted, he may have lost social favor for marrying her, but hypergamy is real.  I interpreted D'Alicia as wanting a better quality of life from a mostly financial perspective, but I can't pretend to be blind to other social perks she may have gained. Doesn't mean she never experienced racial bias or bigotry ever again, but from many whites' perspective, being "legitimized" by her white husband was likely important. And while there were black hippies, I don't think it was that common, and it circles back again at what being black means. 

 

On top of that, marrying white, particularly for black women, even today, often stirs resentment and accusations of "forgetting where you came from" or "denying/running from blackness."  Black men get it as well, but not nearly to the same degree.  I saw ALL of those implicit assumptions going at the dinner table and explicitly during the Pops/D'Alicia conversation ("you are from Memphis, D'Alicia!").  I have a feeling that if it was Bow's father that was black instead, that conversation either would not have happened, or gone a different way. 

[Inquisitionist]

Black men get it as well, but not nearly to the same degree.

 

And  yet, according to the 2010 census, Black Husband/White Wife is almost twice as prevalent in the U.S. as White Husband/Black Wife.  Overall, "4.6% of married Black American women and 10.8% of married Black American men had a non-Black spouse."

[Skittl1321]

Is it twice as prevalent because there isn't so much stigma against it?

Black women are judged harshly for marrying white men.  If the men aren't judged as strongly, it makes sense that it happens more.

[roseslg]

I think there is less of a stigma with the men.  I live in Harlem, and my then fiancé and I were walking down the street, there was this woman behind us mumbling and saying "disgusting" every 30 seconds or so.  It was quite clear she was talking to us.  On the bus, a middle aged black man started giving us the eye and singing "shut up, shut up shut up" to the music of Jungle Fever.  We were not speaking that loudly.  This is in NYC, the supposed melting pot of the U.S...  

[BoogieBurns]

What race are you and your husband, roseslg?

[roseslg]

I'm black (from the Caribbean), and he's a pale, white boy.  We sign shut up shut up shut shut up to each other every now and again.   We thought it was funny after it happened, but not while we were on the M60!

[LJonEarth]

Is it twice as prevalent because there isn't so much stigma against it?

Black women are judged harshly for marrying white men.  If the men aren't judged as strongly, it makes sense that it happens more.

Really? Because I've always thought it was the other way around. Perhaps it depends on who is doing the judging. Although it's lessened to almost non-existent, but I've seen black women and white men judge white women with black men.

 

It's funny because somehow, all of a sudden, all of the black (sorority) women from my college are now married to white men. Most of the comments are more along the lines of the "marrying up" comment. Or at least a kind of "do what you've got to do" thing (not a money thing, but a love is love thing).

 

There are definitely generational shifts happening.

[topanga]

On top of that, marrying white, particularly for black women, even today, often stirs resentment and accusations of "forgetting where you came from" or "denying/running from blackness."  Black men get it as well, but not nearly to the same degree.  I saw ALL of those implicit assumptions going at the dinner table and explicitly during the Pops/D'Alicia conversation ("you are from Memphis, D'Alicia!").  I have a feeling that if it was Bow's father that was black instead, that conversation either would not have happened, or gone a different way. 

 

I'm not sure the show realizes it's exposing gender dynamics and maybe underlying sexism as well.    

 

I do think the show has an implicit bias in exploring blackness because it's Andre's point of view, for the most part.

 

I quoted two of your posts, ribboninthesky1 because both points are applicable to the most recent episode (The Real World).

 

I don't remember if Andre had an opinion about Bow's parents being an interracial relationship, but the episode certainly addressed it. That being said, there was absolutely no commentary on the fact that Bow's black ex-fiancé was together with her white friend from college. I know that wasn't the point of the episode, but it's telling that no one mentioned it when it seemed to be such a big deal with Bow's parents.  In fact, all of the men at the party -- including Dre's black co-workers, admired her and said they wished they'd had the opportunity to date her.

 

So yes, there is a double standard.

[ribboninthesky1]

I quoted two of your posts, ribboninthesky1 because both points are applicable to the most recent episode (The Real World).

 

I don't remember if Andre had an opinion about Bow's parents being an interracial relationship, but the episode certainly addressed it. That being said, there was absolutely no commentary on the fact that Bow's black ex-fiancé was together with her white friend from college. I know that wasn't the point of the episode, but it's telling that no one mentioned it when it seemed to be such a big deal with Bow's parents.  In fact, all of the men at the party -- including Dre's black co-workers, admired her and said they wished they'd had the opportunity to date her.

 

So yes, there is a double standard.

 

I caught that as well, and was blown away by the tone-deafness of a white woman's "thickness" being exalted by every male in the scene while Bow, who has a very similar shape and is CLEARLY stacked like a brickhouse, is mocked and made a fool of with Spanx.  I didn't bother going there in my episode comments, because I was so otherwise angry about the way Dre treated Bow.  Mind you, I have no issues with shapewear or jokes about them, but coupled along with all of the other fuckery going on with the "let's humiliate Bow for laughs" episode, it just confirmed that it's time for me to be done with this show. 

[mojito]

 

It's funny because somehow, all of a sudden, all of the black (sorority) women from my college are now married to white men. Most of the comments are more along the lines of the "marrying up" comment. Or at least a kind of "do what you've got to do" thing (not a money thing, but a love is love thing).

In my world, the black woman-white man wasn't much of a thing because you didn't see it that much and it seemed people figured that it must be right.

 

As for a comment I read about Bow's mother marrying up, or the speculation of her marrying up, that makes no sense when you consider that they were hippies. Hippies weren't into social status and money. Until reality hit.

[ridethemaverick]

I caught that as well, and was blown away by the tone-deafness of a white woman's "thickness" being exalted by every male in the scene while Bow, who has a very similar shape and is CLEARLY stacked like a brickhouse, is mocked and made a fool of with Spanx. I didn't bother going there in my episode comments, because I was so otherwise angry about the way Dre treated Bow. Mind you, I have no issues with shapewear or jokes about them, but coupled along with all of the other fuckery going on with the "let's humiliate Bow for laughs" episode, it just confirmed that it's time for me to be done with this show.

I'm still watching but otherwise, YES to everything you said. But IIRC the head writer of the show is a black man, so...let's just say I wasn't shocked.

Really? Because I've always thought it was the other way around. Perhaps it depends on who is doing the judging. Although it's lessened to almost non-existent, but I've seen black women and white men judge white women with black men.

It's funny because somehow, all of a sudden, all of the black (sorority) women from my college are now married to white men. Most of the comments are more along the lines of the "marrying up" comment. Or at least a kind of "do what you've got to do" thing (not a money thing, but a love is love thing).

There are definitely generational shifts happening.

Let the media and IR couples tell it, all black women hate and harass bm who date ww. The reality is there are plenty of bm who hate seeing bw date interracially. There were many salty tears over Scandal. Additionally, there have been several cases of bw/wm couples being harassed, attacked, and even murdered by bm. So the idea that bm don't care or that they care less than we do is very far from the truth.

[LJonEarth]

@ridethemaverick, I'll just have to take your word for it. These upset black men need to be more vocal and jump into the eligible bachelor dating pool, because I don't know where they are! You snooze, you lose.

 

Not to veer off-topic, I thought the issue people (including myself) had with Scandal, was more about the nature of that relationship rather than merely just the race of the two characters.

[BoogieBurns]

jump into the eligible bachelor dating pool

 

Where is this pool located? Would love to make a quick trip there and pluck one out. 

[nicepebbles]

I took Pop's comment about "marrying up" as "you did better for yourself by marrying someone white." I couldn't tell if he felt like she did it just to marry someone white or because she loved him or some combo of the two. Giving that they were both hippies, I'd say it was for love and there probably weren't a lot of black male hippies so the dating pool would've had more whites than blacks.

 

"Marrying up" is real, then and now. The last thing anyone assumes my husband is, is black. I'm clearly an African-American female. Some paperwork at work identified him as white though he clearly told him he was black. When we found that out, I told him, "Don't change it. Do you know what this means? We can get a house, a car, whatever else with no problem. Our credit is going to be perfect!" I always joke I get the best of both worlds.

 

I love The AV's Club take on it. Perfect description. Pretty I've had to justify my blackness every now and then from because of the way I talk, the music I listen to, the food I eat, where I grew up, where I went to school. My kids look like me but have my husband's coloring so unless things get better, they'll have to do the same. Anyway, back to the show. Bow calls Dre out on his narrow definition of blackness, but it's always on the sly or he straight up ignores her because he's ranting about whatever has him riled up. He finally got it in the code switching epsiode. I really hope he doesn't have amnesia and starts acting a fool again.

 

Speaking of acting a fool, Zoey telling Bow to go away in the The Peer-ent Trap episode. I wish there had talked about that a bit as I know my black mama (because I know my mama) wouldn't have allowed me to speak to her that way. Despite Bow's mom letting her put a fork in a socket, I have to wonder if she would've tolerated that kind of disrespect. I mean she was D'Alicia from Memphis before she was Alicia involved in some cult. (I forget which episode Bow says her parents aren't in a cult anymore.) There is the idea that white parents would let there kids talk to them like that. It would've been interesting to see if the show went with the stereotype about white parents v. black parents or was more reflective of reality, that parents of all shades some times let their kids get away with too much. I remember sitting about a African-American mother and daughter at some event. The daughter basically told her mother to f-off. I about died that she said that and that her mother didn't knock her out. My mother certainly would've.

[OhioMom]

I watched last night's show. It was the first time I'd seen this show.

I don't "get" the reason for this show.  Is it supposed to be poking fun at white people, black people...everyone?!!??

 

Or is it a black "All In The Family"? That show is so politically incorrect today, I can't imagine how this show could exist, without being horribly hypocritical.  Or is that the point?

 

If you're a fan of the show, why?  (I don't mean that snarkily...I am genuinely trying to figure out what the "draw" for fans is).

It seemed too "in your face" -- bordering on racist and alternately campy to me.

 

Thanks for your insight!

[After7Only]

Hi OhioMom

 

I watch the show because it's funny.  Don't get hung up on the name of the show.  It pokes fun of everyone.   I thought last night show was one of the stronger ones.  I am Black, and have Republicans in my family.  And yes, the reaction to that is similar to what was portrayed on the show.  It is definitely campy.  But the campy helps balance out some of the other themes of the show.  Humor get's its "funny" because it's based in truth.  And the campyness helps point out the truths.  Like the boss saying Junior was just what the Republican party needed (as long as he wasn't gay).  Or Dre's mother  being upset about Junior being a Republican, while having views similar to evangelical republicans.  Or when Bow/Dre went to the Black Republicans house, and were asked why they were Democrats and they really didn't know and couldn't articulate it..

 

I'd suggest you watch some of the earlier episodes to get a better feel for the characters and the show in general.  I think it pokes fun at race in some really intelligent ways, while still touching on lots of issues universal to all families.  Plus all of the kids have great comic timing, espeically Junior and Diane. 

[OhioMom]

Thanks, After7!

This whole thread has been very helpful to me!  I didn't know it was here (I don't know how I missed it!), so thanks to whomever moved my post!!

 

I am so happy to see discussions like this happening, because it validates opinions, gives everyone a voice, and promotes understanding and clarity of issues that not everyone has experience with, but has heard about.  And it seems, here, anyway, to be done in a respectful manner!  I hate it when the discussions go all wrong and insults are launched... :)

....but I've only just started reading here, so I hope I didn't misjudge the "everyone seems to be respectful of each other thing..."

[BoogieBurns]

....but I've only just started reading here, so I hope I didn't misjudge the "everyone seems to be respectful of each other thing..."

 

You're good. We are nice on this board. 

 

I like the show because it's funny and there are people in my life exactly like most characters. I like it for the same reason I liked The Office and Parks and Rec, it's a good show that is often relatable written by smart people. 

[PRgal]

Hi OhioMom,

 

I'm (East) Asian and I relate to this show more than Fresh off the Boat.  I see this as not only a family sitcom, but culture clashes between the generations as well as socio-economic clash.  Junior and the rest of the kids grew up very privileged and blind to the struggles that Dre faced growing up.  This is similar to me - my parents are immigrants and my dad did not have much money growing up.  However, by the time I came along, my parents had cushy jobs in the corporate world, a nice house in the suburbs and supporting not only me, but my mom's parents.  I grew up with piano lessons, Brownies and eventually, a private school education.  I am aware of my dad's upbringing, but it's not something that I can probably fully understand.

[LJonEarth]

Speaking of acting a fool, Zoey telling Bow to go away in the The Peer-ent Trap episode. I wish there had talked about that a bit as I know my black mama (because I know my mama) wouldn't have allowed me to speak to her that way. Despite Bow's mom letting her put a fork in a socket, I have to wonder if she would've tolerated that kind of disrespect. I mean she was D'Alicia from Memphis before she was Alicia involved in some cult. (I forget which episode Bow says her parents aren't in a cult anymore.) There is the idea that white parents would let there kids talk to them like that. It would've been interesting to see if the show went with the stereotype about white parents v. black parents or was more reflective of reality, that parents of all shades some times let their kids get away with too much. I remember sitting about a African-American mother and daughter at some event. The daughter basically told her mother to f-off. I about died that she said that and that her mother didn't knock her out. My mother certainly would've.

I never cursed at my mom or took it to crazy levels, but I spoke back to my black mom. But my mom was more Bow than Ruby. I remember one instance where i did something fairly tame around my other black friends. They were in shock when nothing happened. I think they took cover. We have a pick-your-battles-policy in our family and I fared the best behaviorally among the cousins and parenting styles. "Get out, Mom!" would've been no biggie. Driving at 15? I would still be grounded now 15 years later!

 

I'll bet they get to it sooner rather than later, but the grandparents are going to have to be present for it to brought up. But they covered some of that ground with the corporal punishment episode, didn't they?

 

OhioMom, although it doesn't represent a lot of people's experiences, just about every episode has had something that I experienced in my life. So the reason for the show is probably 1) to be funny, 2) to tell a story that hasn't been told yet on TV. Life is messy. The topics addressed on the show don't have clean explanations or solutions. I too was worried that the pilot was too "in your face" for people who don't know what it's like for some of us. But I think race issues are so often looked at in a sad light. Sometimes, the race and cultural things are really funny in retrospect or even in the moment. I hope white people don't feel attacked by the show. But they do, it's because of the baggage they're bringing to the table. Everyone is lampooned on Black-ish.

Edited May 15, 2015 by JinNashville

[nicepebbles]

I'm a fan of the show because it's funny. Most of the time I like the way they handle real life situations. It helps that in some way I can relate to something in every episode. I think you have to watch the earlier episodes to get the name of the show.

 

I love the show All in the Family.  The similarities between that show and this show are very minor in my opinion so I can see how this show can exist today. Dre does come off a hypocrite a lot of times.  I think that's the point.  He sees his world one way and everyone else, to include the audience, sees it differently, i.e., the way it really is.  Sometimes he has to get kicked in the pants to see that.  I don't think the show is hypocritical. 

[BoogieBurns]

Thanks to Rachel Dolezal, I think we have a storyline for a season 2 episode. Here's the story for those who want the details.

 

For those who prefer a summary: White lady convinces herself and others that she is black. Runs a chapter of NAACP. White parents spill her secret. 

[LJonEarth]

Thanks to Rachel Dolezal, I think we have a storyline for a season 2 episode. Here's the story for those who want the details.

 

For those who prefer a summary: White lady convinces herself and others that she is black. Runs a chapter of NAACP. White parents spill her secret. 

I know someone exactly like Rachel except for the pretending to be black part. Her obsession with "black culture" was so creepy to me that I remember trying to hide my brother from her when he visited in college. When she spotted us (him), sure enough she was on him like an octopus. Today, this person wrote about how closely she identifies with this Rachel person. It's just baffling to me.

 

I'm always disturbed by people who just loooove a certain race or ethnicity beyond maybe wanting to study the history of that group of people. Because within a race or ethnicity there's so much diversity, I don't get why people can make declarations like "I just feel more like a black person" or "I just love Asian people" or "I'm only attractive to Hispanic people." Maybe you identify or attracted to some specific people or features on people and those people happen to share the same ancestory, but that's it. Anthony Anderson, Stacey Dash, Condi Rice and Nicki Minaj are all black people who seemingly couldn't be more different than one another. I think Black-ish and this forum is doing a pretty good job of demonstrating the diversity of experiences. Maybe I'm completely wrong. I just cringe.

 

I recently saw that a lot of people (of all races) think that Mindy Kaling is black. So, for one of these "I only date black women dudes," would he dump her the minute he discovered she wasn't a black girl with a relaxer? Is it a looks thing? Is it cultural thing? I run when I encounter these guys.

 

In a related note. Mindy's brother tried the fake black person thing too.

[nicepebbles]

Didn't Bow say in a previous episode she pretended to be Pacific Islander to get a scholarship? 

 

I can see the Rachel Dolezar situation as a SL as a very fair skinned black person being questioned by Dre as being black enough.  Like this person gets a job Dre thinks he should've gotten because he's "blacker" or Dre thinking the person is white and not understannding why the person is so into "black" culture.

 

The story about Mindy kaling's brother is ridiculous because he's ridiculous, at least based on that story. A) Based on what I remember from studying affirmative action in college, how it's practiced is not how it's supposed to be practiced. So he shouldn't have gotten into great schools with mediocre grades. B) It sounds like he didn't get into any schools because he was "black" yet had mediocre grades. C) Him saying other groups don't benefits from affirmative action is wrong from what I remember from college.

[LJonEarth]

The story about Mindy kaling's brother is ridiculous because he's ridiculous, at least based on that story. A) Based on what I remember from studying affirmative action in college, how it's practiced is not how it's supposed to be practiced. So he shouldn't have gotten into great schools with mediocre grades. B) It sounds like he didn't get into any schools because he was "black" yet had mediocre grades. C) Him saying other groups don't benefits from affirmative action is wrong from what I remember from college.

 

Also, that's not how you run an experiment.

 

Now I'm interested in reading the difference between how it's practiced and how it's supposed to be practiced.

 

I do enjoy that Michael Rapaport is lobbying to play Rachel in the inevitable Lifetime movie. Ha!

Edited June 16, 2015 by LJonEarth

[nicepebbles]

I do enjoy that Michael Rapaport is lobbying to play Rachel in the inevitable Lifetime movie. Ha!

 

 

That's is hilarious! I can see this happening on a Key & Peele or SNL. Just taking it to the extreme with the gender and racial issues.

[funkopop]

This reminds me of the 2005 movie Slow Burn with Ray Liotta.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Burn_(2005_film)

Edited June 19, 2015 by funkopop

[topanga]

 

I do think the show has an implicit bias in exploring blackness because it's Andre's point of view, for the most part.  For example, he seems to tolerate Dre's nerdiness, but hasn't sought to share it much with him. Not saying that he has to love Lord of the Rings, but watching it with Junior wouldn't kill him. So yes, Junior is shown as nerdy, but he's also the goofy sibling that's usually the butt of the joke or derision.

I think Dre is oblivious to most of his children, except for Zoey. I don't know if that's a Dre think or a stereotypical dad thing. He easily picks up on Zoey's emotional cues, but he has no idea what Junior or Diane are thinking or feeling. He doesn't notice when he hurts their feelings--and when they call him on it, he says he doesn't care. Of note, Diane and Jr. are the "nerdy" and smart children in the family. I hope this doesn't mean that Dre finds them less desirable as children or less "black" than Zoey or Jack. That's the same harmful message that black children have been receiving for years, and I would think Kenya Barris would avoid that trope.  BTW, I can't tell if Jack gives off any emotional cues--he's portrayed as a young, happy kid who doesn't get upset about many things (but Diane certainly knows how to push his buttons).

Edited June 25, 2015 by topanga

[Granny58]

I have a variety of opinions about this episode.  I appreciated the passion that was expressed for Obama, something I have not experienced but I did feel empathy for the passion.  I LOVED the red lady's pants suit!  I love everything with Bow.  Everything.  But the photo ID is NOT to make voting harder for black people, but for illegal immigrants!  You need a photo ID to go to the doctor!  How is it that every adult citizen doesn't already have this?  

[vibeology]

1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

I have a variety of opinions about this episode.  I appreciated the passion that was expressed for Obama, something I have not experienced but I did feel empathy for the passion.  I LOVED the red lady's pants suit!  I love everything with Bow.  Everything.  But the photo ID is NOT to make voting harder for black people, but for illegal immigrants!  You need a photo ID to go to the doctor!  How is it that every adult citizen doesn't already have this?  

Not every US citizen can afford to go to the doctor, either because they can't afford the bill or they can't afford the time off work. Add in a very justified historical mistrust of the healthcare system and you can see why that argument doesn't hold up. And when you look at the population of people who tend to be poorer and have less access to medical care, they also tend to be mostly people of color.  Also, Republican strategists have been recorded on video talking about how voter ID laws are in place to help them win districts and elections and cut down minority voting. If I wasn't at work, I'd link a few right now. (Also, in person voter fraud is not a thing but I'm already wildly off topic so....)

14 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I think this episode was more than a bit heavy-handed but it was also a vast improvement on last week. The writers seem to have put a lot more thought into it.

Did we know before now that Dre's boss was quite extreme like that? I always saw him as a little dense due to his privileged upbringing and status but I hadn't pegged him as, well, someone Ruby might get along with. Yikes.

Is it what I am now calling The Luke Cage Complaint?

Honestly I felt like they crossed a line with him tonight and I probably won't be able to find him all that funny anymore. It was one thing when he was a clueless idiot, but for him to be an active, hateful bigot who understands that the things he says are wrong (the comment about how something was house talk only) ruins the character for me. I loved everything about the episode except that.

[MaryMitch]

I loved this episode - it rang so true on so many levels, and it was funny to boot.

 

6 hours ago, Granny58 said:

I have a variety of opinions about this episode.  I appreciated the passion that was expressed for Obama, something I have not experienced but I did feel empathy for the passion.  I LOVED the red lady's pants suit!  I love everything with Bow.  Everything.  But the photo ID is NOT to make voting harder for black people, but for illegal immigrants!  You need a photo ID to go to the doctor!  How is it that every adult citizen doesn't already have this?  

Let me tell you - 2 years ago, I spent 2 months helping my 83 year old mother get a Photo ID so she could vote. We had to get a birth certificate first, which ironically was pretty difficult because she doesn't have a photo ID. (edited to add: we had to get her marriage certificate too, because of the name change.) Then I had to get her to the DMV. If I didn't have a car and the time to deal with this shit, she would not have been able to vote.

Lots of older and poor people don't have photo ID; it's just not something they need. Except to vote.

Edited October 6, 2016 by MaryMitch

[Granny58]

4 hours ago, vibeology said:

Not every US citizen can afford to go to the doctor, either because they can't afford the bill or they can't afford the time off work. Add in a very justified historical mistrust of the healthcare system and you can see why that argument doesn't hold up. And when you look at the population of people who tend to be poorer and have less access to medical care, they also tend to be mostly people of color.  Also, Republican strategists have been recorded on video talking about how voter ID laws are in place to help them win districts and elections and cut down minority voting. If I wasn't at work, I'd link a few right now. (Also, in person voter fraud is not a thing but I'm already wildly off topic so....)

Going to the doctor is not the point.  The point is you need ID to go to the doc's.  Also, if you work you need ID for your job and at a minimum your checking account.  If you don't work and get benefits I hope to God you need ID for that too.  You need ID to get a driver's license, then the license is the ID.  You need ID to buy Sudafed at Walmart.  I cannot believe that there are people in this era who do not have ID.  If they don't, I would bet they're not registered to vote either.  

[possibilities]

I just put "Who is affected by voter ID laws?" into my search engine (I use "duckduckgo" but I'm sure google would work as well), and got a zillion articles documenting exactly what the impact is. I don't think we need to guess or believe, there is research by a number of organizations which will answer any questions about it, and it's easy to get the data.

I love Junior. His refusal to passively allow disrespect to the custodial staff endears him to me forever.

I found many things about this episode uncomfortable, but I applaud them for being willing to push the envelope and not just offer bland pablum and Disney promos during prime time. It takes a certain amount of guts to take these kinds of risks.

[Granny58]

4 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Let me tell you - 2 years ago, I spent 2 months helping my 83 year old mother get a Photo ID so she could vote. We had to get a birth certificate first, which ironically was pretty difficult because she doesn't have a photo ID. (edited to add: we had to get her marriage certificate too, because of the name change.) Then I had to get her to the DMV. If I didn't have a car and the time to deal with this shit, she would not have been able to vote.

 

Let me tell you - my 82 year old mother has just spent the summer getting something in order and my friend and I helped her.   Because life is shitty like that.  And yet you did manage to get her the ID.  It can be done.  Maybe it doesn't need to be a PHOTO ID for senior citizens to vote, but we need some sort of ID system and it is not intended to keep legal citizens from voting. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Granny58

[vibeology]

8 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Going to the doctor is not the point.  The point is you need ID to go to the doc's.  Also, if you work you need ID for your job and at a minimum your checking account.  If you don't work and get benefits I hope to God you need ID for that too.  You need ID to get a driver's license, then the license is the ID.  You need ID to buy Sudafed at Walmart.  I cannot believe that there are people in this era who do not have ID.  If they don't, I would bet they're not registered to vote either.  

But these people do exist and they exist primarily in poor black communities. You don't need a driver's license if you can't afford a car or are too old to drive. You won't have a passport if you can't afford to travel. Not everyone can get a checking account. I looked quickly at Bank of America's basic checking account and to open one you need a $25 minimum deposit and a monthly fee of $12. That is not doable for everyone. Wal-Mart will cash a check for $3. To get SSI, you can use a birth certificate and your SSN. Not everyone buys Sudafed. Just because someone doesn't have photo ID and isn't currently registered to vote doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right. And many of the people most impacted by these voter ID laws are black seniors who fought for their right to vote during the civil rights movement and now as seniors no longer have the same ID a young person would.

And all these laws are in place to stop an imaginary problem anyhow. Between 2000-2014 there have only been 31 cases of in person voter fraud countrywide.

2 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

I see Stevens as someone who isn't outwardly prejudiced in his day to day feelings, he obviously has a very good relationship with Dre and Charlie and his old partner. But he is blind to the concept of White Privilege despite the fact that he lives it every day. Basically he hasn't had to confront those types of issues, and thus can be lured in by a lot of the alt-right ideals because his primary concern is his own tax burden.

His son definitely seems much more alt-right subscribed though.

That's how I saw him before this episode but there were lines in last night's episode that I thought went way too far. It's one thing to say "think of the poor white children who have never seen a white President." It's another thing to call Obama a foreign born Muslim.

12 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I love Junior. His refusal to passively allow disrespect to the custodial staff endears him to me forever.

I loved that. He is just a sweet kid and he managed to get that win by being himself which is the right lesson to take away from this anyhow.

I had forgotten about Jack's class pet vote which I loved because of course the school was going to rig that against a snake or parrot. A snake is something many people would be uncomfortable with and parrots live forever. It would be a horrible choice.

[MaryMitch]

From the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law:

As many as 11 percent of United States citizens – more than 21 million individuals – do not have government-issued photo identification.

Details: http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/d/download_file_39242.pdf

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, MaryMitch said:

From the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law:

 

Details: http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/d/download_file_39242.pdf

So, a telephone survey of 987 random American citizens.  I saw nowhere in the information how they verified that the American "citizens" were legal and/or truthful.  However, given what has been discussed here today, I can see that some people do not have ID.  OK, I'm open to a non-photo form if ID to verify identify for voting.  My initial post was making the point that it is not a racist idea, it's a citizenship idea.  

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/5/voter-fraud-is-real-and-its-happening-now/

Edited October 6, 2016 by Granny58

[OnceSane]

Remember to "Be Civil".