S02.E05: Seeds

[PamelaMaeSnap]

5 hours ago, Joana said:

Uness I'm forgetting something, Rita gave the letters back to June saying she was too afraid to do anything with them, and then June put them behind the bathtub herself.

THANK YOU! Damn my memory. I knew Rita had had them but I couldn't remember if June had taken them or not ... 

[Joana]

49 minutes ago, Anela said:

I'm not sure that Fred was too low on the chain to give his wife certain freedoms. I think he just didn't want to. We had that one episode in which we saw them in love, and when they slept together for the first time in a couple of years.

There was that scene right after Gilead was established that showed Serena trying to speak to the commanders, presumably to lay out her ideas for the new society. They completely rebuffed her and she was never even allowed to enter the room. Both Fred and Serena seemed a bit shock at that kind of treatment and Fred wanted to try talking them into seeing her another time, but she told him not to bother. I think a part of him has resented her a little bit ever since. 

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, Joana said:

I think it's obvious that this is NOT how Serena imagined the new society would be. I think she imagined some sort of a domestic bliss utopia where women would be happy to stay at their homes and take care of their families without even wanting anything more, while she would be one of the select few women to lead them, guide them and show them the way. Don't forget that she also tried to talk to Commanders and share her ideas with them, which clearly implies she almost expected them to treat her like an equal. Also, TBH, I find it difficult to believe she demanded that the women be denied the ability to write and read, I mean, the woman was supposedly a best-selling author, I'm guessing women were the main target group and I kinda doubt her books were all "You better remember this piece because when I come to power, it will be the last thing you've ever read". She probably thought that in the new society women wouldn't want to read anything more than domestic manuals and religious texts, like back in the good ol' days. 

And then the reality bit her.

 

 I could see that, I think it's probably a mixture of a lot of things.

But just from the spitefilness she has displayed, I  could absolutely believe that she wouldn't want lower ranked women to read or write. 

 It'd be a true separation of the classes, just like they did in the old days which is where she claims they wanted America to return to, going back to when things were good and great and "godly".

I  think that's what bit her in the butt so hard when she realized that Aunt Lydia still has that privilege.

 I think that she sets herself apart from the "bad" women like the handmaids or the household servants like a Martha, and the Econo wives.

 For some reason she also views the Aunts as being beneath her, not sure why considering they are high ranking enforcers for the regime at the highest level but in her mind they should also be under the rule and will of the wives, not the other way around as it seems to be.

I do see Serena as a woman who puts herself above others, she is highly priviledged and she did not think for a second that she was going to lose that.

 The lower peasants would not be able to continue to rebel by being able to read and write and have control of their wicked and sinful bodies, she however was a godly lady and therefore immune and exempt from similar treatment.

 

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I'm not sure that Fred was too low on the chain to give his wife certain freedoms. I think he just didn't want to. We had that one episode in which we saw them in love, and when they slept together for the first time in a couple of years. Otherwise, he seems to seriously dislike her. He didn't listen when she tried to talk to him about something, when he was on a laptop that she wouldn't be allowed to use. He's obsessed with this woman brought in to be raped once a month, breaks the rules to satisfy his own hunger and "needs". He has zero respect for his wife. 

Serena and her husband then went on to show how exceptionally cruel they can be. Marrying Nick off to a teenager, in a sick ceremony. Serena seemingly enjoying herself? I know she was relishing what she was putting June through, but children getting married off to grown men is not beautiful. 

 

 

 I agree that he has no respect for her, but I also think that he does not have the full respect of the regime of Gilead himself.

 I think next week's episode is going to expand on that, but just from the way that they treat him I think that Fred is not as in control as he once was before they took power.

 I could see it being put to him that he had a choice to make, either he would continue to be pro wife rights for her sake or he was going to get in line and do things their way.

 And definitely Fred is a selfish man,  It's all about him, Serena's comforts would no longer matter as long as he remained in their good graces. 

 So then we get a scene like we did in this episode, where they're sitting at the table and Serena is attempting to engage him in general conversation and he can't even be bothered to look her way. 

 Maybe before when she could read and write and had her freedom she was too busy with her agenda to realize the man she was married to, and now that she can do nothing more than smoke and slap people around she is all too aware of the monster that she is now burdened with for life. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[Miles]

20 hours ago, Anela said:

You make it sound like any of it is okay. Who cares if she looks 20? I don't believe in the bible, and don't believe that this is any way for a girl or woman to be treated. The girl may have looked okay, because she got a guy who's not over 40, and seems to be kind. He also won't force himself on her, but we'll see if she's brainwashed, and the type to report him if he doesn't do what he's supposed to be doing. 

You make it sound like men can't be raped, because they always want it, am I right?

If she is of age she gets fucked by the system just as much as her husband does and that goes for all the hunsbands and wifes there.

 

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Medieval catholics  weren't as repressed as people may think. Books like The tales of Canterbury or The Book of Good Love make pretty clear that they enjoyed sex even if they had to confess their sins later. There were also tons of prostitutes, which means tons of clients too. In the end, the Church wouldn't have had to devote so much time to fight against lust if people weren't lusting all over the place. Of course, there were also people who believed that sex was evil and wrong, but not all of them. I think it got worse later, with the Catholic Reformation, but that happened in the 16th century and people kept fucking and whoring anyway.

I mean, of course. Puritans also had a really high amount of shotgun weddings, which means they were fucking around a lot and Gilead has wifes having their handmaids sleeping with drivers or gardeners to get their hands on babies, while probably having a ton of affairs themselves. I was talking about official doctrine, not what people actually did. People always fucked around. In the past probably more than now. We have more entertainment options, like shows on Hulu. ;)

[Umbelina]

The way I saw Serena Joy and her husband was a bit different.

He was TURNED ON by her power, her mind, her ability to talk back, all of it.  When that was taken from her?  She was a bore to him.

That's why he loves Jezebels, that's why when June beat him at Scrabble, it was a turn on (and a huge gamble for June.)

The sad thing is, the kind of woman that turns The Commander on?  Are the kind he's eliminated from his life.

[AnswersWanted]

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

*If nothing else, this world looks SO BORING. Is there any entertainment at all besides Jezebels? For anyone? Any movies, even religious ones? Restaurants? Coffee shops? Parks? What does Serena do all day? She doesn't even tend the home - the Marthas do that.

 

 It appears that what was drawn up on paper is not translating to reality the way that this group thought.

It does seem as if all means and manner of modern day entertainment has been completely eradicated.

I remember a scene from season one in the beginning where they were taking all the papers and books and magazines and trashing them to be burned, destroying all of those worldly outlets for fun. 

 Other than her knitting and her smoking,  and visiting with the other wives from time to time, or going on walks, Serena has absolutely nothing else to do.

 Other than their handmaids, who serve more as their torture victims really, it does not seen like these people allow themselves to have pets even. 

Or maybe all the domesticated animals have mostly died out? Who knows.  I doubt they'd want to feed them anyway considering the war going on and rationing supplies.

 I know one thing about this episode that got me thinking is that the Commander toasted Nick and his baby bride with champagne for congratulations, but why is drinking permitted in Gilead? 

 One would think that since they claim to uphold The Bible so, drinking would have been one of the very first vices they cut out of the fabric of society. 

Drinking, drunkenness, is one of the main reasons that people get up to mischief and make bad decisions and supposedly sin in the first place.

 And on that same note why is smoking okay?

What about keeping god's holy temple sacred and pure?

Puffing on cancer sticks isn't going to do that,  after all they have pretty much done away with doctors and any possible cancer treatment, but yet that is allowed under the regime's rule, or at least there is no punishment for it.

The way Gilead is structured and put together is just maddening,  not just because it makes absolutely no sense the things that they consider against the rules and what they don't, but that I can totally see parallels in reality around me from people that I meet far too often.

[DangerousMinds]

On 5/16/2018 at 7:55 PM, Umbelina said:

Quite a few of the quotations they use are directly from the Bible, probably the King James Bible.  The Bible is full of horrifying things.  Oh, and Gilead certainly wouldn't be the only ones who have changed the Bible to suit their purposes over the centuries.  At all.  It's always been changed to suit the times or ambitions, or will of those who re-wrote, translated, etc.

I do think Gilead's goal IS to increase the population, and decrease all of the pollution, chemicals, nuclear power plants, etc.  Climate change issues were certainly part of the book, and have been mentioned on the show.  They need babies.  In the book girls were married at 15, a very fertile age.  Men were lucky to get a wife, it WAS a great honor.  Aside from everything else?  SEX!  (such as it was, still better than nothing.)

Anyway, obviously POWER is also a goal for those that took over, but I think most are sincere about not wanting to die out as a country as well.

I believe the most fertile age for most women is in their late teens/early 20's.

[GraceK]

52 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The way I saw Serena Joy and her husband was a bit different.

He was TURNED ON by her power, her mind, her ability to talk back, all of it.  When that was taken from her?  She was a bore to him.

That's why he loves Jezebels, that's why when June beat him at Scrabble, it was a turn on (and a huge gamble for June.)

The sad thing is, the kind of woman that turns The Commander on?  Are the kind he's eliminated from his life.

I agree completely. The last time he had sex with her was when she organized that deal with the Mexicans. In the preview for next week in the flashback you see him looking at her when she’s screaming at that rally. I think she lost all appeal for him when Gilead took over. That’s why he’s obsessed with June. Honestly I think Serena and Fred both bit off more than they can chew and deep in their heart of hearts regret this new society. I think they both realize it’s full of shit. Serena is barely clinging on to her sanity and the only thing keeping her going is that baby. In her twisted mind that will make everything well and give her something to love and care for.

[AnswersWanted]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The way I saw Serena Joy and her husband was a bit different.

He was TURNED ON by her power, her mind, her ability to talk back, all of it.  When that was taken from her?  She was a bore to him.

That's why he loves Jezebels, that's why when June beat him at Scrabble, it was a turn on (and a huge gamble for June.)

The sad thing is, the kind of woman that turns The Commander on?  Are the kind he's eliminated from his life.

 

But in turn he loves to dominate these women. I think he enjoys fight in a woman but doesn’t want them to have the ability to fight back, those are two separate issues in his mind. 

Yes, June beat him at scrabble, but she’s also his abused sex slave. She was like a sex doll with a brain to him. Pretty, smart, and totally his property. 

Jezebel’s is a place filled with trapped women forced to please men with unlimited sick desires without the ability to ever say “no” or “I can’t” and there are certainly no safe words employed. 

With Serena she was his good little champion bringing other women to their side, sure she was spunky and firey and fun, and now she’s drab, like her washed out, muted wardrobe, and she’s helpless and all the passion, or much of it, is gone. So he ignores her and rapes handmaids and sex slaves in secret clubs on the side. 

Perhaps he thought she would be more fun and down with their new way of life, but obviously he had a backup plan if she wasn’t going to play along. 

I think Fred is a true male chauvinist. Women appeal to him based on what he can get from them or out of them. 

I will never forget a scene in season one, when they are in the middle of the “ritual” and he begins thrusting forcefully into June, to the point where she notices and regretfully reacts while Serena sits above them in utter revolution.

The pleasure he expresses through the whole thing was disgusting and disturbing. He was violating them both at the same time and he was loving it. That’s a man who enjoys taking women and making them pawns for his pleasure. 

I don’t think that he believes he has eliminated the sort of women he is turned on by, he has just managed to take away their voices, their choices and their freedom, and now he’s right where he’s always wanted to be. 

He has a legal wife, a legal concubine, and an open ended sex club he can sneak off to if neither of the first is doing it for him. He’s in his own heaven, sexually at least. 

[DangerousMinds]

48 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

 It appears that what was drawn up on paper is not translating to reality the way that this group thought.

It does seem as if all means and manner of modern day entertainment has been completely eradicated.

I remember a scene from season one in the beginning where they were taking all the papers and books and magazines and trashing them to be burned, destroying all of those worldly outlets for fun. 

 Other than her knitting and her smoking,  and visiting with the other wives from time to time, or going on walks, Serena has absolutely nothing else to do.

 Other than their handmaids, who serve more as their torture victims really, it does not seen like these people allow themselves to have pets even. 

Or maybe all the domesticated animals have mostly died out? Who knows.  I doubt they'd want to feed them anyway considering the war going on and rationing supplies.

 I know one thing about this episode that got me thinking is that the Commander toasted Nick and his baby bride with champagne for congratulations, but why is drinking permitted in Gilead? 

 One would think that since they claim to uphold The Bible so, drinking would have been one of the very first vices they cut out of the fabric of society. 

Drinking, drunkenness, is one of the main reasons that people get up to mischief and make bad decisions and supposedly sin in the first place.

 And on that same note why is smoking okay?

What about keeping god's holy temple sacred and pure?

Puffing on cancer sticks isn't going to do that,  after all they have pretty much done away with doctors and any possible cancer treatment, but yet that is allowed under the regime's rule, or at least there is no punishment for it.

The way Gilead is structured and put together is just maddening,  not just because it makes absolutely no sense the things that they consider against the rules and what they don't, but that I can totally see parallels in reality around me from people that I meet far too often.

Where does the Bible say that all drinking is prohibited? Drunkenness yes, but simp,y drinking a glass of wine? Jesus turned water into wine, after all.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

But in turn he loves to dominate these women. I think he enjoys fight in a woman but doesn’t want them to have the ability to fight back, those are two separate issues in his mind. 

 

It's no fun to dominate women that are already obeying.

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

But in turn he loves to dominate these women. I think he enjoys fight in a woman but doesn’t want them to have the ability to fight back, those are two separate issues in his mind. 

Yes, June beat him at scrabble, but she’s also his abused sex slave. She was like a sex doll with a brain to him. Pretty, smart, and totally his property. 

Jezebel’s is a place filled with trapped women forced to please men with unlimited sick desires without the ability to ever say “no” or “I can’t” and there are certainly no safe words employed. 

With Serena she was his good little champion bringing other women to their side, sure she was spunky and firey and fun, and now she’s drab, like her washed out, muted wardrobe, and she’s helpless and all the passion, or much of it, is gone. So he ignores her and rapes handmaids and sex slaves in secret clubs on the side. 

Perhaps he thought she would be more fun and down with their new way of life, but obviously he had a backup plan if she wasn’t going to play along. 

I think Fred is a true male chauvinist. Women appeal to him based on what he can get from them or out of them. 

I will never forget a scene in season one, when they are in the middle of the “ritual” and he begins thrusting forcefully into June, to the point where she notices and regretfully reacts while Serena sits above them in utter revolution.

The pleasure he expresses through the whole thing was disgusting and disturbing. He was violating them both at the same time and he was loving it. That’s a man who enjoys taking women and making them pawns for his pleasure. 

I don’t think that he believes he has eliminated the sort of women he is turned on by, he has just managed to take away their voices, their choices and their freedom, and now he’s right where he’s always wanted to be. 

He has a legal wife, a legal concubine, and an open ended sex club he can sneak off to if neither of the first is doing it for him. He’s in his own heaven, sexually at least. 

Yeesh. This gave me the willies.

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Miles said:

You make it sound like men can't be raped, because they always want it, am I right?

If she is of age she gets fucked by the system just as much as her husband does and that goes for all the hunsbands and wifes there.

 

I mean, of course. Puritans also had a really high amount of shotgun weddings, which means they were fucking around a lot and Gilead has wifes having their handmaids sleeping with drivers or gardeners to get their hands on babies, while probably having a ton of affairs themselves. I was talking about official doctrine, not what people actually did. People always fucked around. In the past probably more than now. We have more entertainment options, like shows on Hulu. ;)

What? What I said was that Nick wouldn't force himself on her, so where did I say that men always want it? He kept looking at JUNE during that ceremony. He didn't want a child bride. And I never said that men couldn't be raped, but do you see that happening here? A teenage girl overpowering the man she's forced to marry? Seriously? She might report him for not doing his "duty" according to Gilead rule/law, but I don't see her physically attacking him and forcing herself on him. You are deliberately twisting words. 

[AnswersWanted]

16 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Where does the Bible say that all drinking is prohibited? Drunkenness yes, but simp,y drinking a glass of wine? Jesus turned water into wine, after all.

 

I didn’t say it was prohibited, but this regime uses the bible to ban so many other less serious vices, IMO, but they let their people have access to alcohol. 

It’s the act that is risking great temptation to go further, to overindulge and then get drunk. 

I would think that at least they would be closely monitored or have to be given special permissions. 

[Joana]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Honestly I think Serena and Fred both bit off more than they can chew and deep in their heart of hearts regret this new society. I think they both realize it’s full of shit. 

I agree. Essentially, they're both opportunists who never really cared for Gilead's ideals and were mostly in it for the power it would give them, and they both thought that whatever rules the new society came up with would not apply to them. And then it turned out that Serena had to relinquish all the power she once had if she wanted to stay alive, and Fred could only keep his if his wife parted with all the attributes that attracted him to her in the first place, thus making his domestic life miserable. Now they're two sad, pathetic creatures who can only take comfort in knowing that the others have it even worse than them, and on some level deep down they probably feel repulsed at what they've become. And they know they only have themselves to blame for it and that there's no turning back.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Joana

[millennium]

Once again, Emily's story and the gritty performance of the actress immediately make me lose all interest in June Osborne and her Cabinet of Pained Expressions.

Why is the land at the Colonies radioactive?  Have they explained that?

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, millennium said:

Once again, Emily's story and the gritty performance of the actress immediately make me lose all interest in June Osborne and her Cabinet of Pained Expressions.

Why is the land at the Colonies radioactive?  Have they explained that?

Power plant meltdowns, some caused from earthquakes and other climate change problems, as well as age, etc. 

The first part was in the show, the rest the book, but it's hardly a spoiler, so I'm not going to tag it.  The book was written shortly after a similar accident, as I recall. 

Not all colonies are radioactive, some are just places to grow food.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[millennium]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Honestly I think Serena and Fred both bit off more than they can chew and deep in their heart of hearts regret this new society. I think they both realize it’s full of shit. 

I think everyone realizes it's shit.   The Commander and others playing golf, for instance.   I think they all know it's a sham but the only thing that keeps them from saying so is they can't be certain the next guy isn't a true believer, because they're all playing the role to the hilt.  No one except perhaps Aunt Lydia and the other Aunt sadists seem truly happy with the way things are going.   

[Umbelina]

I think some are devout and do believe, Commanders, Wives, certainly Eden believes, so that means some Econfamilies do.

[AnswersWanted]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Yeesh. This gave me the willies.

 

Sorry, heh, my brain is...a dark, dark place sometimes. 

[Scarlett45]

I thought this episode was well placed. A bit slower and more nauanced after weeks of intense suspense. 

I am someone with a baby face, and I am just now at 32 beginning to recognize it in others. The actresses chose to play wives were women in their early 20s (as to not alienate the audience) but with baby faces, with no makeup and the correct styling could easily pass for high school students. I took it the brides were to be in their mid to late teens. Teen brides married off to up and coming men and having all the free will sniffed out of them. Heartbreaking.

If a girl is lucky she will be assigned a husband that doesn’t repulse her, beat her, and actually speaks to her as if she is a human being. All a teen girl can dream of right?!!

[DrSpaceman]

Quote

If nothing else, this world looks SO BORING. Is there any entertainment at all besides Jezebels? For anyone? Any movies, even religious ones? Restaurants? Coffee shops? Parks? What does Serena do all day? She doesn't even tend the home - the Marthas do that.

If you manage to get pregnant, they give you cinnamon milk. 

Taking the long peaceful walk home from the store to witness the day's hangings.

They introduced cool phrases like "Under his eye", "Blessed be the fruit (loops)"

Long baths to contemplate your constrained, overbearing existence. 

Getting dressed and undressed in all those clothes is a good half day task I think

What more could you want? 

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It's no fun to dominate women that are already obeying.

 

But he knows that they are being forced to obey.

June is not Eden, Serena isn’t either, they are first-generation women who have gone from all freedom to, to now having only freedom from.

So his play things are still the same sorts of women he’s always wanted, they’re just now trapped in cages, they have no voice to speak out with and there is no one who will listen to them.

June could kick him in the balls during the ritual and scream no, and then she’ll lose a foot, or an eye, or hand, or her clitoris. 

 The fire has not gone out of them, I think that is what he’s still attracted to. That is why he showed interest in June, because he could see that she was not just a broken baby doll, at least not yet. And if anyone was going to break her then it would be him, another score. 

I saw that part of his personality flare wide open when he decided to have Nick given a wife for this episode, the smugness oozed from him because he knew he would be breaking June’s heart by taking away Nick, again it was something he took pleasure in, taking away something from her, taking away a piece of something good for her knowing full well that was all she had to still lean on being back in his household. 

The game of domination and forced submission is one of his favorites, IMO.  

 I also think back to when he took June to Jezebel’s, and he knew Moira as Ruby, he also knew she was June‘s friend, he knew everything about her which also means that he knew she was a lesbian.

Yet she was one of his favorite play toys there, meaning that this was a man who selected a woman that he knew had no true ability to feel sexual attraction towards men even when she was free, and that’s the one he wanted to take to bed because who better to dominate a formally loud and proud Queer woman, a woman who claimed that no man was good enough for her or could satisfy her or whatever rhetoric people like him love to tell themselves.

That all she really needs is a good bit of the D to get back in line and show proper appreciation. 

My thinking is Fred relishes the knowledge that these women were once free, that is where he gets his high from.

They are not brainwashed, not fully, they can still fight, they can still think for themselves if given the chance, they can still play scrabble with him, but when he wants to put them on their backs he can do so without their say so, without their permission, without their consent.

Because whenever he wants them to be nothing more than good little girls who serve him he merely taps the side of his tea cup with a spoon without making a bit of eye contact, just as he did with Rita in this episode. 

[GraceK]

Question. Do the Waterford’s know that Nick is an Eye? And if they don’t, doesn’t that mean that he is in fact more powerful than the commander? 

[GraceK]

12 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

saw that part of his personality flare wide open when he decided to have Nick given a wife for this episode, the smugness oozed from him because he knew he would be breaking June’s heart by taking away Nick, again it was something he took pleasure in, taking away something from her, taking away a piece of something good for her knowing full well that was all she had to still lean on being back in his household. 

 

Was that about hurting June or punishing Nick? To be fair I honestly didn’t pick up on Ill intentions towards June in this instance. I honestly felt more of a territorial jealousy towards Nick and he wanted him out of the way cause he knew he has feelings for June and the baby is most likely his.

from Serena’s end I felt it was bad juju for June definitely.

Edited May 18, 2018 by GraceK

[AnswersWanted]

25 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Question. Do the Waterford’s know that Nick is an Eye? And if they don’t, doesn’t that mean that he is in fact more powerful than the commander? 

 

No, I do not believe they are aware or else they are doing a shit job hiding their bad behavior from him, heh. 

He’s the one driving the Commander to Jezebel’s and Serena Joy had him sleep with June to get her pregnant. Those acts definitely broke a whole slew of the regime’s rules. 

 If Nick had reported them more than likely they both would’ve been harshly punished or even executed, so yes in that way he is far more powerful. .

 June was told there was an Eye in her house by Emily before she was taken away, but that’s the only reason that she was aware of Nick’s true role. 

 

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Was that about hurting June or punishing Nick? To be fair I honestly didn’t pick up on Ill intentions towards June in this instance. I honestly felt more of a territorial jealousy towards Nick and he wanted him out of the way cause he knew he has feelings for June and the baby is most likely his.

 

Personally I think it was a bit of both.

Because there’s a scene during the wedding ceremony, I hate calling it that, where he glances over to where June is sitting and he looks very proud of himself. 

 He already knows the baby she’s carrying is not his biologically and a man of limited intelligence would’ve figured out that the only guy that she’s been around that could have instead impregnated her is Nick so he’s the most logical choice, as you mentioned. 

Then there was the conversation with Serena where she mentioned to him that Nick seemed so concerned about their handmaid and yada yada yada, next thing you know he’s wanting to ship Nick off to Washington but instead has to settle for giving him a wife, because of course he’s not aware that Nick is an Eye in his house and they are not going to reassign him yet .

But as far as him doing it to be a total asshole to the both of them, yes, I definitely think that was his intention.

June is his, Nick is now married and risks death if he so much as looks another woman’s way, in Fred’s head he’s won. 

 I think that during season one we have seen numerous times that Fred likes fucking around with June’s emotions from time to time, it’s his way of reminding her just how much control he has over her.

“Look at this, I can rape you on a regular basis, I can force you to go to sex clubs with me and almost have you have sex with your best friend, I can allow my wife to treat you like a piece of shit on a regular basis, I can remove a body part from you, or I can marry off the guy that I know got you pregnant in secret but I can’t actually admit to that or else our whole entire household is going to hang on the wall.”

 Maybe the show is not attempting to write him as being that much of a self-aware douchebag, but that’s how I see him, heh. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[Anela]

42 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I thought this episode was well placed. A bit slower and more nauanced after weeks of intense suspense. 

I am someone with a baby face, and I am just now at 32 beginning to recognize it in others. The actresses chose to play wives were women in their early 20s (as to not alienate the audience) but with baby faces, with no makeup and the correct styling could easily pass for high school students. I took it the brides were to be in their mid to late teens. Teen brides married off to up and coming men and having all the free will sniffed out of them. Heartbreaking.

If a girl is lucky she will be assigned a husband that doesn’t repulse her, beat her, and actually speaks to her as if she is a human being. All a teen girl can dream of right?!!

Exactly.

My sister has a baby face, had those little cupid bow lips, too. She's now 41, and still kind of has it. She has some weight on her, too, so that adds to it a bit, but she didn't when she was younger. When she was in her early to mid-twenties, she looked younger than some college students she ran into in a public place. I've had issues with her husband that I mentioned before, but one other thing that repulsed me was that he was 45 at least, when he got involved with her (she was 19/20), and she had other guys nine or ten years older, hitting on her, too. She looked maybe fourteen in her pictures at the time. She looked *young* anyway, and got a lot of attention from swooning guys. It was so odd. I had similar attention when I was 11 or 12 on, only gross attention, not swooning. I remember having crushes on slightly older guys at times, but can't imagine being married off to someone at all, let alone at such a young age. 

[rubinia]

On 16/05/2018 at 7:51 PM, Miles said:

Well the midevil catholics weren't much better. I think it's still debated if that sex through a sheet with a hole in it is just a myth or was a real thing.

That was a myth about Jewish people and has been debunked. It’s true that medieval Catholics were quite prudish but I’d guess that sex between husband and wife was just fine.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I think some are devout and do believe, Commanders, Wives, certainly Eden believes, so that means some Econfamilies do.

I can't help but draw parallels to all the publicly pious religious leaders of our own time who have been caught in sex scandals and other embarrassments.   They play the part because it serves their purposes, but it's just a facade.   Look at the Commander, quoting Scripture yet sneaking June away for illicit nights out.    Frankly, any time someone tells me I'm not saved but they are, I wonder what sins they're trying so hard to hide.

[chocolatine]

44 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Question. Do the Waterford’s know that Nick is an Eye? And if they don’t, doesn’t that mean that he is in fact more powerful than the commander? 

I don't think they do, but Fred's boss - Andrews? - does. He hired Nick to spy on Fred, hence his rejection of Fred's request to have Nick transferred to DC.

[Umbelina]

59 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Question. Do the Waterford’s know that Nick is an Eye? And if they don’t, doesn’t that mean that he is in fact more powerful than the commander? 

I think they suspect he could be, but they would suspect anyone in his position. 

Think of Nick as FBI, and the Commander as a Congressman.  Which is more "powerful?"  It depends.

16 minutes ago, millennium said:

I can't help but draw parallels to all the publicly pious religious leaders of our own time who have been caught in sex scandals and other embarrassments.   They play the part because it serves their purposes, but it's just a facade.   Look at the Commander, quoting Scripture yet sneaking June away for illicit nights out.    Frankly, any time someone tells me I'm not saved but they are, I wonder what sins they're trying so hard to hide.

Oh Fred is definitely faking all of it, as are any of the other commanders that frequent Jezebel's.  I'm just saying I don't think EVERY one of them is.  Some of them, Wives, Commanders, Guards, Econofamilies, Aunts, Martha's?  Do believe.

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I don't think they do, but Fred's boss - Andrews? - does. He hired Nick to spy on Fred, hence his rejection of Fred's request to have Nick transferred to DC.

Yes, that was lovely, and foreshadows Fred's demise, which I seriously hope we get to see.  Fred breaks a lot of rules, and he may be being careful right now, after his buddy had his hand chopped off, but how long can it last?

Edited May 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, that was lovely, and foreshadows Fred's demise, which I seriously hope we get to see.  Fred breaks a lot of rules, and he may be being careful right now, after his buddy had his hand chopped off, but how long can it last?

My favorite foreshadowing of Fred's demise was last season after Janine blew the lid on her "extracurriculars" with Putnam. The commanders were in a room together deliberating what Putnam's punishment should be. Fred was all "boys will be boys, bitches be crazy, amirite?" and Andrews was like, "nope, his wife asked for a serious punishment and he's getting it". That's when Fred first realized that he's not nearly as powerful and immune to punishment as he thought he was.

[AnswersWanted]

 I think in their own way, Fred and Serena are trying to take precaution against the idea Nivk could be a spy by directly involving him in their own misdeeds. 

 When Fred is breaking the rules and taking a handmaid out of the house to go to the club or he wants some other illicit act committed, he leans on Nick. Nick is his driver, Nick is an active participant. 

Serena Joy decided to recruit Nick to impregnate June because she knew that was the only way she was ever going to produce a child.

Of course Nick agreeing to do what she told him to do and having sex with a handmaid put him right in the middle of breaking the rules and being at risk for discipline or death. 

If he was a true devout Eye, I would assume that they would have expected him to report her request right away and call down his superiors on the household, he didn’t though, he still slept with June.

I think they feel they have made Nick complicit enough in their decisions that in the end he would be in just as much trouble for tattling as they would be. Which in hindsight is not a bad idea, but also certainly it’s not a foolproof plan. 

[Umbelina]

Or, Nick is gathering evidence as directed.

Spies never follow societal rules.

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

If he was a true devout Eye, I would assume that they would have expected him to report her request right away and call down his superiors on the household, he didn’t though, he still slept with June.

Nick is playing the long game. He's playing along to stay on the Waterfords' good side to get the maximum dirt on Fred. I have the feeling Fred is up to something much more serious than illicit trips to Jezebels, and Nick and/or Andrews suspect.

[AnswersWanted]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Or, Nick is gathering evidence as directed.

Spies never follow societal rules.

 

And we have no idea of knowing with the regime’s rules for him even are frankly. At this stage in the game one could say considering he’s been with the family for sometime now that he has plenty of evidence already stored, how much more would he really need? 

The husband from last season, he was punished after being caught raping his handmaid in secret, they call it “cheating”. We all already know Fred is guilty of the same crime at least twice over, not to mention what he does at the club.

Nick is obviously not your average spy in this situation so anything really can go. Maybe he is meant to dig deeper and ignore the family’s crimes of the flesh for something bigger, maybe he is meant to raise the alarm at the first signs of misbehavior but has chosen not to for his own reasons, perhaps because he also has contacts within MayDay, who knows, there are quite a few theories one could go with for now. That was one of mine. 

 

Quote

Nick is playing the long game. He's playing along to stay on the Waterfords' good side to get the maximum dirt on Fred. I have the feeling Fred is up to something much more serious than illicit trips to Jezebels, and Nick and/or Andrews suspect.

 

As I said above, Nick may be doing this for or because of the regime or he could be doing it for himself as someone helping MayDay or some other part to the resistance. 

He could be a spy within a spy within a spy.

 Perhaps he actually likes Fred and Serena enough to not want to see them die if he did expose them. 

I don’t know, I was just thinking out loud. There’s a lot of ways the story can go. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by AnswersWanted

[chocolatine]

13 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

And we have no idea of knowing with the regime’s rules for him even are frankly. At this stage in the game one could say considering he’s been with the family for sometime now that he has plenty of evidence already stored, how much more would he really need? 

I think Fred is being suspected of treason or planning a coup or something similar, and therefore needs to be under constant surveillance - where is he going, who is he meeting with, who comes to his house, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Nick also sneaks into Fred's study at night and hacks into his computer.

Edited May 18, 2018 by chocolatine

[AnswersWanted]

5 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I think Fred is being suspected of treason or planning a coup or something similar, and Nick needs to report on him in "real time" - where is he going, who is he meeting with, who comes to his house, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Nick also sneaks into Fred's study at night and hacks into his computer. 

 

 But if that's the case, which it very well could be,  this is my issue with that being the end goal for Nick's assignment:  They don't need to go through all of that.

Nick already has plenty of dirt on Fred, he could turn him in to the regime and they could just torture him until he squeals. 

Torturing people to get info is something they do often and apparently have become quite proficiant at.

Fred has a lot they can use against him as well, they could use Serena, threatening to send her to the colonies or to make her a Handmaid or put her to work at the club, he may not be a great husband but one would assume that he would try to prevent any of that from happening.

They could also threaten June and the baby, or they could just stick to destroying his mind and body until he gave up everything and everyone that he knows.

 So, at least for me, it is just not necessary for Nick to go sneaking around and investigating, he could just let them literally pry the truth out of Fred by any and all means.

And if you're trying to stop an immediate threat, the idea would be to stop it as soon as you can, not let them continue with their plan until it perhaps is too late.

 Plus if they take Fred into custody then they have every right to raid his house and hack his computer and all of that. 

 However, on the flipside, this show also seems to lean away from doing the very obvious when it comes to just torturing people to get information, so all of that could still be true, that they think Fred is plotting the ultimate betrayal, but they decide not to act and instead wait. 

 Personally I think that would be all kinds of stupid to make such a decision, but we do need a season 3 now don't we, heh. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Nick is playing the long game. He's playing along to stay on the Waterfords' good side to get the maximum dirt on Fred. I have the feeling Fred is up to something much more serious than illicit trips to Jezebels, and Nick and/or Andrews suspect.

Exactly, and he's in a very very tricky position.

• He's an Eye.
• He's in Mayday, the resistance
• The woman he loves is a handmaid in the house he's spying on, and she's about to have their child.
• To top it off, now he's married to a true believer child!

Talk about conflicting priorities! 

Hopefully we will learn more about Nick's Eye job, since we are getting some scenes with the other Commanders now.  The previews for next week

Spoiler

even show other area Commanders coming to stay in homes with the Commanders from the Boston area.

I think it will all come together at some point.

As an Eye he would do as told, and report, it's not up to him how long to spy.  There are multiple reasons possible for it to be an ongoing investigation.  It's also possible Nick didn't report Jezebel's because it also implicated June, or maybe he reported it when Fred to the last handmaid there.  Maybe they want to be able to take down more than Fred, or maybe Fred is currently playing a vital role in something they need.

Could be anything.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

All I can say at this point is that if this show is really going to continue on for 10 seasons (which is totally up in the air at this point) then they best not be dragging shit out that long. I WILL lose interest and stop watching until I can binge it all at once. I need to see some people paying for the crap they've done.

[DrSpaceman]

35 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

All I can say at this point is that if this show is really going to continue on for 10 seasons (which is totally up in the air at this point) then they best not be dragging shit out that long. I WILL lose interest and stop watching until I can binge it all at once. I need to see some people paying for the crap they've done.

I tend to agree.

There is a definite limited timeframe on how long the show can continue along the current path of focusing on the interactions of June and her immediate "family" or social circle or whatever you want to call them. 

It managed to sustain interest for several episodes with her escape attempt, but now being back to square one basically, there is only so much you can literally and figuratively beat this her and this theme.  We get it, life sucks for her.  And all of them

Would be much more interested in at least learning more about Nick or the Commander and his wife or Aunt Lydia, at the very least. More than just from June's perspective. 

[chaifan]

36 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

All I can say at this point is that if this show is really going to continue on for 10 seasons (which is totally up in the air at this point) then they best not be dragging shit out that long. I WILL lose interest and stop watching until I can binge it all at once. I need to see some people paying for the crap they've done.

Is the 10 seasons something that has been said by someone in the know?  That seems like a very long commitment, especially for these actors, and for a show that only has one season (10 episodes) a year.  I'd prefer that they get in 2 seasons each year (fall and spring).  Otherwise I think I would also lose interest along the way.

[mamadrama]

10 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Is the 10 seasons something that has been said by someone in the know?  That seems like a very long commitment, especially for these actors, and for a show that only has one season (10 episodes) a year.  I'd prefer that they get in 2 seasons each year (fall and spring).  Otherwise I think I would also lose interest along the way.

Yes, it was said by Bruce Miller, the showrunner. As far as I know, no such contracts have been signed for that duration but it's been reported several times in the media that they've plotted out 10 seasons. 

 

Quote

“I roughed it out to about 10 seasons when I was first working on it,” Miller reveals.

“I see a world beyond [the current one]. I would watch an episode about the Nuremberg trials after Gilead falls. There are lots of worlds you think of: ‘I would love that season — seasons eight, nine or 10, where everything has changed so much.'”

http://www.nme.com/news/tv/10-seasons-handmaids-tale-2220298

Edited May 18, 2018 by mamadrama

[BellyLaughter]

Call me when the Nuremberg Trials begin.....

[kieyra]

According to this article, Eden is supposed to be 15, and yes the ceremony was supposed to evoke the horrors of “child brides”.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/handmaids-tale-nicks-marriage-explained-1113042

[AnswersWanted]

3 hours ago, kieyra said:

According to this article, Eden is supposed to be 15, and yes the ceremony was supposed to evoke the horrors of “child brides”.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/handmaids-tale-nicks-marriage-explained-1113042

 

I definitely believed her to be in that age group, I do think they casted the right sort of actress who just has child like features and a young face.

I’m actually glad that they didn’t use one of the other actresses. I’m sure she was most likely of legal age but she looked all of 13 years old to me and there’s just no way I could’ve handled that. I don’t think the show could/would cross that line either.

The fact that child brides still exist is such a horrific fact to me, and even here in the states, as much as people like to play ignorant and think that it only happens in Third World countries, there are certain ways to get around it and there are little girls allowed to be married off in certain areas and it’s just terrifying to think in 2018 it can still happen and does. 

I think it’s definitely going to be a test for Nick to handle this, because obviously he never imagined being saddled with a little girl as a wife.

And frankly he has to play his cards right about her, will he just give in and take her virginity and have physical relations regularly just to keep up appearances or will he rightfully try to keep her at bay and somehow manage to limit their physical contact without raising suspicion or confusing her and causing her to express doubts about him. 

I would say the latter would be incredibly hard for him to do, but Nick appears to have a decent set of morals still, so as a grown man of nearly 30 I’m guessing, could he really force himself to be with a 15-year-old girl who probably has the emotional maturity of a 10 year old. 

Truth be told Nick is very much still a modern man, he is flying under the radar as a deeply devoted member of Gilead society when in fact he isn’t, so as he is a resistance member will he try to basically undo some of her brainwashing and basically re-raise this girl to understand what’s really going on and that everything she’s always been taught is nothing but a lie and that there is so much more to the world than being a wife and having babies. 

If June comes to him again for help, he no longer can just think about it being the two of them, Eden has to factor in now.

If he helps June to escape again then Nick really has to think hard about potentially leaving with her this time. I doubt he could help her escape again and not be the one they point the finger at as being behind it, and if he doesn’t take Eden with him it’s a very good chance that he will condemn her to a horrific punishment of some sort.

But if he doesn’t believe that he could trust Eden if they were to take her, that she would try to run or turn them in to the authorities, I do believe he would pick June over her and rightfully so, especially since June is pregnant with his child. 

[AllyB]

On 5/18/2018 at 4:36 AM, chocolatine said:

I don't think they do, but Fred's boss - Andrews? - does. He hired Nick to spy on Fred, hence his rejection of Fred's request to have Nick transferred to DC.

He's Commander Pryce but Andrew is his first name. Tbh, I suspect he has Eyes watching most of the Commanders and is happy to pick off any who he has no immediate need for in order to avoid any of them threatening his own power. I think he is probably one of the closest to being a genuine true believer but that his real aim is less to ensure the Commanders are godly and more to ensure his own superiority. Remember, the first Commander we saw Nick's spying bring down was Commander Guthrie. A Commander who we saw in the flashback disagree with Pryce when they decided how to treat the fertile women. Pryce was judicious enough to let Guthrie, a great field Commander, get his own way at that point but I doubt it was a coincidence that we later see Guthrie being dragged off to meet a fate of most likely Pryce's choosing. Pryce let him live as long as he needed him and then had him taken out. It will be the same with Fred.

The thing with Gilead is, that the rules are so restrictive there is no Commander that won't fall foul of them at times. All Pryce has to do is keep a literal Eye on them and when he is ready, he will have everything he needs to get rid of whoever he wants. He also has the ability to move quickly if he thinks a Commander (or a Wife/Martha/Handmaid) presents a genuine threat or is about to defect but a huge part of his strategy is to just bide his time and remove the Commanders he has issues with when the time is right. Fred is definitely on his shitlist and has to be reaching the end of his usefulness as Pryce is making his disdain for him ever more clear.

Edited May 19, 2018 by AllyB

[Bubbetv]

^^^^This! Yessss! Fred's days seemd quite close to the end when he got reminded of delays with his latest P.R.Project.

They really needed marketing spin to pull off the whole coup, but now they have religious dictatorship, they only need slimy international polish to market and deal with other countries -no evidence ole Freddie is any good with that -he's not in the meetings about courting the foreigners this time. Anyone over two years old can see Fred is full of shit, and they seem to want more now.

That scene in the car, while Nick was driving, when they crafted this whole bullshit religious narrative, has haunted me as much as the appalling graphic violence. And more often.

[Flowergirl81]

Very good episode, but it raised a couple of questions.  How did June wind up outside in the rain?  Did she fall out of her window?  Also how did nick know to look for her in that particular location?  

[tennisgurl]

On 5/17/2018 at 4:52 PM, Empress1 said:

*If nothing else, this world looks SO BORING. Is there any entertainment at all besides Jezebels? For anyone? Any movies, even religious ones? Restaurants? Coffee shops? Parks? What does Serena do all day? She doesn't even tend the home - the Marthas do that.

Heh, I finally caught up with this show after a week long marathon (broken up by lighter far, or just starring at a wall) and, while this whole place is clearly horrifying for a million reasons, what always get me is how fucking boring it must be. Like, if you dont go insane from the constant fear and abuse, you go insane from sheer boredom. There is literally nothing fun in this world anymore apparently, unless your a creepy rich guy off to get drunk with the Jezebels, and even thats only at night.  What the hell do these people do all day long? Not even the men seem to read much, there arent TV or movies, even propaganda, there are no parks or places to eat or anything else that I can remember seeing for people to hang around at. On the almost always empty streets, its just people walking around. Everything people ever, in the history of the world, ever did for fun (sports, writing, parties, sex, decent food) all seem to have been banned. Hell, even the fucking Nazis made movies. Really shitty movies, but movies none the less. From what we've seen, being a Martha or a driver/handyman seems like the best gig you could get, because at least you actually have some shit to do every day, beside sit around and contemplate your terrible life. They dont even get to read the bible or play cards I dont think! Their brains must all be jello from disuse at this point. If I was the government, I would be concerned about a resistance forming just out of a desperate desire to find SOMETHING TO DO. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by tennisgurl