S02.E04: Other Women

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

I think this is a little mean spirited. The fact that her husband was a secret Muslim clearly shows that she’s not so close minded. She kept his secret and loved him didn’t she? She also seemed to be aware on some level that her husband was involved in the resistance, and as angry and “dismissive “ as she was about June she didn’t immediately turn her in did she to save herself? No she didn’t . I think it’s unfair to judge this woman on the one impression we saw of her merely because she was rightfully scared and angry that her husband brought a timebomb into her home without her consent. She was terrified. And now her husband is dead, her child is gone, and she’s condemned to be raped for however long she’s fruitful. Are you saying this what she deserves for her “pride and judgement?”?

She was judging June.  She said she'd die before doing what June did, giving up her child and becoming a Handmaid.  June's "I thought that too,." said it all.

I'm not saying that makes the wife a bad person, not at all.  I'm saying that one of her faults (and we all have faults, and Atwood never shied away from those faults) is that she was judgmental and dismissive of June, of ALL Handmaids. 

I think it's very important to show that.  True, most of the overt oppression has come from men, but we still have the Aunts, we still have the Econwives and Wives looking down on Handmaids.  It's not as dramatic as what men have done to the women of Gilead, but it is there, that the women have, in a much smaller way, done their own kind of harm to other women.

Just now, Joana said:

That scene didn't strike me as the woman looking down on June as a handmaid, more like her standing face to face with the embodiment of her worst fear. 

No, the theme of women judging and in small ways contributing to the misery of other women is there, in the book, and it's been in the show as well. 

Again, I'm not angry at that wife, not at all.  I certainly don't think she deserved that!  I do think however, that both book and show are making clear that although men shoulder the massive blame, women carry some of it as well.

[GraceK]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

No, the theme of women judging and in small ways contributing to the misery of other women is there, in the book, and it's been in the show as well. 

This is a fair point .

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She was judging June.  She said she'd die before doing what June did, giving up her child and becoming a Handmaid.  June's "I thought that too,." said it all.

I thought that was a pretty ignorant statement when she said that TBH. 

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Again, I'm not angry at that wife, not at all.  I certainly don't think she deserved that!  I do think however, that both book and show are making clear that although men shoulder the massive blame, women carry some of it as well.

Serena is all the proof you need! ?

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm not saying that makes the wife a bad person, not at all.  I'm saying that one of her faults (and we all have faults, and Atwood never shied away from those faults) is that she was judgmental and dismissive of June, of ALL Handmaids. 

 

Well, the retribution for that dismissive attitude was absolutely disproportionate IMO and I can’t help but feel sick for her, no matter her faults. And I think the other poster also had a good point as well, I think June also represented the embodiment of all her fears.

Edited May 15, 2018 by GraceK

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

This is a fair point .

I thought that was a pretty ignorant statement when she said that TBH. 

It's so real too, we do it to other women all the time in real life as well, so it's natural that it would continue in Gilead.

I just looked it up, Omar's wife's name is Heather.

Heather could be very very interesting on the show.  For one thing, June needs a buddy now.  For another, SOMEONE will have to replace June in the story if June will escape eventually.  Who better than Heather, a character we know, and already sympathize with?  Heather, probably in her own ways, as snarky and dismissive privately as June is about Gilead? 

It could work.

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Well, retribution for that dismissive attitude was absolutely disproportionate IMO and I can’t help but feel sick for her, no matter her faults. And I think the other poster also had a good point as well, I think June also represented the embodiment of all her fears.

Yes, as I said, in no way did she, or ANY of the other women deserve to have that happen to her.  At all.

[GraceK]

Just now, Umbelina said:

It's so real too, we do it to other women all the time in real life as well, so it's natural that it would continue in Gilead.

I just looked it up, Omar's wife's name is Heather.

Heather could be very very interesting on the show.  For one thing, June needs a buddy now.  For another, SOMEONE will have to replace June in the story if June will escape eventually.  Who better than Heather, a character we know, and already sympathize with?  Heather, probably in her own ways, as snarky and dismissive privately as June is about Gilead? 

It could work.

I love this idea 

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

Well, retribution for that dismissive attitude was absolutely disproportionate IMO and I can’t help but feel sick for her, no matter her faults. And I think the other poster also had a good point as well, I think June also represented the embodiment of all her fears.

Disproportionate retribution is Gilead's trademark.

[Umbelina]

It really would solve the issue of a show called The Handmaid's Tale with no handmaids on screen.

June's pregnancy is moving right along, so maybe that is the plan somehow.  Another escape, and this time June makes it at least

Spoiler

to the cabin in Maine

but we are now invested and staying in touch with Gilead via Heather.

[AngelaHunter]

On 5/14/2018 at 8:01 PM, chocolatine said:

When June met Luke, he was still living with his wife, and June and Luke made plans to meet at a hotel room for sex. After they slept together, June said she wanted Luke to leave his wife - and he readily agreed. I don't think she's responsible for ending Luke's marriage, but it wasn't her finest moment. 

Many people will not leave even a miserable marriage if they don't have someone waiting in the wings for them. Fear of being on their own, the devil you know, etc. stops them. But no one can destroy a happy marriage. No one "steals" another person. It can't happen. June could never have snatched that man away if he were happy in the marriage. Blaming the "other woman" always puzzles me. SHE never made vows to the wife, lied to her or cheated on her. An affair is a symptom and a result of something wrong in a marriage and not the cause of that wrongness.

[DangerousMinds]

10 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Many people will not leave even a miserable marriage if they don't have someone waiting in the wings for them. Fear of being on their own, the devil you know, etc. stops them. But no one can destroy a happy marriage. No one "steals" another person. It can't happen. June could never have snatched that man away if he were happy in the marriage. Blaming the "other woman" always puzzles me. SHE never made vows to the wife, lied to her or cheated on her. An affair is a symptom and a result of something wrong in a marriage and not the cause of that wrongness.

I love this.

[chocolatine]

20 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Many people will not leave even a miserable marriage if they don't have someone waiting in the wings for them. Fear of being on their own, the devil you know, etc. stops them. But no one can destroy a happy marriage. No one "steals" another person. It can't happen. June could never have snatched that man away if he were happy in the marriage. Blaming the "other woman" always puzzles me. SHE never made vows to the wife, lied to her or cheated on her. An affair is a symptom and a result of something wrong in a marriage and not the cause of that wrongness.

Like I said, I'm not holding June responsible for the demise of Luke's marriage. But I also think it's classless - for women *and* men - to knowingly sleep with a married person and ask them to leave their spouse. It's not about what you owe or don't owe to the spouse, it's about the standards of human decency that you set for yourself.

Edited May 16, 2018 by chocolatine

[secnarf]

On 5/10/2018 at 6:14 PM, AnswersWanted said:

The idea pitched forth was that a handmaid whom had successfully given birth is promised their life. They won’t be sent to the colonies or declared an Unwoman.  

So their “life” is their grand reward, or as I would say a commuted life sentence is more like it. 

 

On 5/10/2018 at 8:15 PM, chaifan said:

Is that an absolute?  What happens to handmaids who have given birth but due to age or health or whatever reason can no longer have children?  I got the impression from something said the first season that once they're no longer fertile they go to the colonies.  Or is there an Old Handmaids Home they all get sent to?

Well, we know Janine had a child and then was sent to the colonies. So, I'd say it's not "absolute".

[chocolatine]

5 minutes ago, secnarf said:

 

Well, we know Janine had a child and then was sent to the colonies. So, I'd say it's not "absolute".

Janine is a special case because she abducted her baby and tried to kill herself.

[GraceK]

53 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Well, we know Janine had a child and then was sent to the colonies. So, I'd say it's not "absolute".

Janine also tried to kill herself and the baby.  So she wasn’t the typical case. The colonies were also the second option. In their twisted, psycho view, she was going to be given a more “ merciful “ quick death by stoning than a slow one in the colonies.

[Poohbear617]

I am confused, why were some women allowed to be in econofamilies while others became handmaids. I was under the impression that in Giliad, women were wives, marthas, aunts or handmaids..I see no women in any other roles. I was confused why Omar's wife who was obviously fertile,  was allowed to keep her child and marriage (although under terrible conditions), I thought all fertile women of Giliad had to be handmaids.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

But I also think it's classless - for women *and* men - to knowingly sleep with a married person and ask them to leave their spouse.

I agree, and in a perfect world everyone would get married and remain in love, happy until death does them part. Sometimes people don't set out to sleep with a married person - sometimes they do of course but there are all kinds of reasons why one would do so - but the heart can rule the head and even though you fight it, you can't always help who you fall in love with.

I don't think June planned to get in the middle of anyone's marriage. She just fell in love with someone who was looking for something - whatever he needed and was not getting in his marriage. People can get married for the wrong reasons too, and staying in a miserable marriage, where neither party is happy, is worse than leaving it. Breaking up a marriage, with all that entails - family and friends and history and a way of life - is hard and those who do it generally do so because they can't not do it, if that makes sense.

[Scarlett45]

28 minutes ago, Poohbear617 said:

I am confused, why were some women allowed to be in econofamilies while others became handmaids. I was under the impression that in Giliad, women were wives, marthas, aunts or handmaids..I see no women in any other roles. I was confused why Omar's wife who was obviously fertile,  was allowed to keep her child and marriage (although under terrible conditions), I thought all fertile women of Giliad had to be handmaids.

June has a voice over inwhich she explains that this could’ve been her life “had I not been an adulteress....had I gone to the right church, had I played my cards right- if I had known I was playing cards.” So had Luke never been married before they met, and they had belonged to the correct church they would be an Ecofamily.

EcoFamilies are the working class of Gilead who were living according to Gilead’s “laws” pre-take over. Basically heterosexual first marriages, where the adults professed to belong to the faith and didn’t join the resistance during the war. (Like Rita’s son died in the war fighting against Gilead)

Although if a Commander wanted to rape an EcoWife I’m sure he’d get away with it, but ALL of the societies fertile women cannot serve the elite class. You’ve got to have some people oppressed and afraid enough to keep the infrastructure of society running, when the masses get fed up you’ll have an open revolt on your hands. 

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Well, the retribution for that dismissive attitude was absolutely disproportionate IMO and I can’t help but feel sick for her, no matter her faults. And I think the other poster also had a good point as well, I think June also represented the embodiment of all her fears.

I think that’s the point here. We’re not supposed to be here thinking, meh, she had it coming about any of the handmaids. No one deserves to have their basic human rights stripped away and be subjected to constant physical and psychological torture. A person doesn’t have to fill out any imaginary boxes for perfection for that. Another reason why this makes sense story telling wise is that it confirms how fragile the supposed safety some castes are supposed to offer really is. The Handmaids are definitely among those who currently have it the worst. But we have now seen that everyone else’s position is fragile. Hearther and Omar (Econofamily) are only the last example. We’ve already had a Commander (handless bastard) and a Wife (Marissa Tomei) demonstrating this. It’s a great device, because it clearly shows there is no playing nice with Gilead and then you’ll be fine. You won’t, it will get you sooner or later.

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

Janine is a special case because she abducted her baby and tried to kill herself.

 

51 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Janine also tried to kill herself and the baby.  So she wasn’t the typical case. The colonies were also the second option. In their twisted, psycho view, she was going to be given a more “ merciful “ quick death by stoning than a slow one in the colonies.

Honestly, given what these women go through, I imagine Janine would be much more typical than a Handmaid who managed to keep it together enough to reach menopause in one piece. 

[Anela]

19 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

But June insisted Omar take her with him when she stood in front of the truck, and then was reckless alone in his home.  She got him killed.  June is a selfish, selfish girl!

She realizes now, as Offred, that sometimes you have to go along to get along.  She'll create a new normal for herself once she's used to it.  It's only been hard because she keeps resisting.

Try to put yourself in her shoes. Or bonnet. You can't read, you can't do anything by yourself. You're escorted to the store by another handmaid, and before all of this, you go through "school" with Lydia, in which you're repeatedly degraded, until you barely seem to know yourself, or what life was like before. You don't dare to think of it, otherwise you might break. If you break the rules, you lose an eye, or a hand. If you have "relations" with someone you're actually attracted to, you're either killed, or made to go through surgery that takes something away from you, but will still leave you with the ability to provide babies, for a man who rapes you once a month (at least), as you're also held down by his wife, who resents and loathes you (usually), and will beat you whenever she feels like it. 

Then, should you be "lucky" enough to fall pregnant, you're still treated like nothing. You might not be physically abused, because they want to protect the baby, but they will still torture you psychologically, and was also pointed out by someone else, she was promised execution if she doesn't obey. The wife gets the gifts, gets pampered, and as you're giving birth to that beautiful baby, the one good thing in that disgusting world (aside from when people help each other), the wife is swooned over, as though she's in delivery, and gets to steal your baby from you. Then you're either killed, or moved away to try again, once your baby is weaned. 

Can you imagine any of this? 

10 hours ago, KariLois said:

Aunt Lydia is the Benjamin Linus of “The HandmaidKs Tale.”

Nooo, I've been compared to Linus, if he's the one with the blankie. Only my attachment is too my notebook. I've been teased about carrying it everywhere with me. 

[bijoux]

Benjamin Linus is a character from Lost, not Linus from Peanuts. Trust me, no connection aside from the name. 

[Miles]

On 9.5.2018 at 8:55 AM, millennium said:

I'm not sure I'd call June's visit to the wall gaslighting or brainwashing.  More of a reality check.   June did impose herself on Omar.   Gilead killed him, but June's exploitation of Omar's compassion set the dominoes in motion.

Not really. He was part of the resistance and they caught him and his family long before they caught June. Meaning him hiding her had nothing to do with him getting caught. On the contrary, I'm 100% sure he sold out the pilot and the smuggling route via plane, so he was responsible for June getting caught. Of course June should have seen that coming and gone on foot, but we discussed that at length in the thread for last episode.

Is it possible that he could have gotten a lighter sentence had he not helped June? Not really. We've seen that Gillead hands out death sentences for the lightest infractions, especially to men, who are disposable to them. Being part of the resistance would have gotten him killed either way. I'm sure the regime was happy to jump at the chance to kill him, make his wife a handmaid and reeducate his son into one of their enforcers.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Miles

[KariLois]

Ben Linus was a villain played by the ultra charismatic Michael Emerson.  He forced us to care about the character because his acting was so good.  Ann Dowd is similar.  Both are manipulative creatures doing what they think is best for the greater good.

[Token]

June is selfish for wanting to save her life?  That's self preservation, that's being a human.  That's not selfish, it's normal.

[nodorothyparker]

Super late to the game but what a fascinating meditation on motherhood and the way women blame each other and take blame on themselves this turned out to be.

This episode felt very much like a bookend to last season's Birth Day when we saw both June and Serena recognizing how much this new order had completely perverted the female experience of giving birth and assuming motherhood.  There was more of that here with the baby shower from hell with all of these teal-clad women desperately playacting that they found anything normal about Serena basically being sanctioned to steal the child of another woman who's sitting right there and claim it for herself and erase that woman entirely.  What made it amazing is seeing that Serena in all her rage so clearly saw it too, no matter how much good old Commander Fred or Aunt Lydia kept trying to reassure her that "yes, yes, you're the mother" and of course "you'll make a wonderful mother" even as she's slapping innocent bystanders around and venomously stewing over having that woman, that incubator still in her house.  If she wasn't so desperate to make it so when she knows it isn't, that creepy scene of crawling into bed with June to treat her like a disembodied womb wouldn't have been necessary.  My sense of June all along in this is that the fetus hasn't been real to her in any tangible way because she would never be allowed to keep it if she didn't get out and now that she didn't it firmly traps her there even as it's the only reason she's escaped so much of the harsh punishment that's fallen on the other handmaids.  She's been very understandably detached.  But I know with my own babies, they only became real to me when I did feel them move and kick and it seemed like she was doing a whole lot of stewing on that herself through all those house of horror scenes up through the point Lydia's real gaslighting began.

I'm not sure it even really matters how much we as viewers think June might share in the blame of everything that's happened.  The point is Aunt Lydia so masterfully convinced June to believe it.  I know I can think she may have been reckless or thoughtless at points in not always thinking through full possible consequences to her or other people and still be of the opinion she certainly doesn't deserve this.  That it happened because of a new order and a belief system that she has absolutely no say-so in.  Ann Dowd is truly magnificent in making me see a character who wholeheartedly believes in this regime and at the same time is still genuinely sorrowful for June in a "look what you made them do" kind of way that doesn't negate her own belief in the righteousness of it.  I don't doubt that Lydia truly believes she loves these women and can redeem them even as she's one of the only women in this universe to have any real power to inflict that kind of punishment on them, again, because "you made me do this.  Offred made me do this to you." 

If Mayday is no longer rescuing handmaids, as far as June knows all hope of escape or deliverance is gone and it's easier at least for now to surrender to the empty blamelessness of being Offred the vessel.

[Beatriceblake]

This one just aired in the UK. A pretty relentlessly depressing hour and a bit. If I was June I would have been tempted to fake conformity earlier in the process to get shut of Aunt Lydia. I don't agree with the people on here who think June is in large part responsible for what happened to Omar and his family. That's all on Gilead. It's pretty clear that this is a brutal society and the blame belongs with those in power.

Omar knew what he was getting into and made a choice to help June and June was just doing what she could to survive. It's horrible that Omar's wife and kid were collateral damage because Omar showed some basic humanity but the only people it reflects badly on are the people in charge.

I get that June, in this episode, is disturbed when she remembers seeing what she wanted to see because she wanted Luke so badly but that isn't analogous to stealing someone's baby. Also in general I'm impatient when a married person cheats and their spouse largely seems to blame the other man/woman. Luke's the one breaking the vows, Annie. Who he does it with is kind of irrelevant.

I agree with your point below Bijoux. Gilead need to have a rethink because it would seem like the Gilead babymaking process isn't conducive to either the wives or the handmaids coming out of it with their sanity in tact.

On 16/05/2018 at 4:14 AM, bijoux said:

I think that’s the point here. We’re not supposed to be here thinking, meh, she had it coming about any of the handmaids. No one deserves to have their basic human rights stripped away and be subjected to constant physical and psychological torture. A person doesn’t have to fill out any imaginary boxes for perfection for that. Another reason why this makes sense story telling wise is that it confirms how fragile the supposed safety some castes are supposed to offer really is. The Handmaids are definitely among those who currently have it the worst. But we have now seen that everyone else’s position is fragile. Hearther and Omar (Econofamily) are only the last example. We’ve already had a Commander (handless bastard) and a Wife (Marissa Tomei) demonstrating this. It’s a great device, because it clearly shows there is no playing nice with Gilead and then you’ll be fine. You won’t, it will get you sooner or later.

 

Honestly, given what these women go through, I imagine Janine would be much more typical than a Handmaid who managed to keep it together enough to reach menopause in one piece.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Beatriceblake

[felicity porter]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:46 PM, AngelaHunter said:

Many people will not leave even a miserable marriage if they don't have someone waiting in the wings for them. Fear of being on their own, the devil you know, etc. stops them. But no one can destroy a happy marriage. No one "steals" another person. It can't happen. June could never have snatched that man away if he were happy in the marriage. Blaming the "other woman" always puzzles me. SHE never made vows to the wife, lied to her or cheated on her. An affair is a symptom and a result of something wrong in a marriage and not the cause of that wrongness.

1

It doesn't matter that June didn't make vows.  It's called basic human decency.  You respect other people's marriages because you would want someone to respect yours, whether it's at its best or at it's worse.  And, in turn, that means not sleeping with a married person and being a third party that either explicitly or implicitly champions the end of a marriage.  If Gilead had not happened, I'm sure June and Luke's marriage would have gone through rough patches, as all marriages do.  And if Luke cheated again (because when June's silly ass married him a job position opened up), I'm sure June's position wouldn't have been "Oh, the mistress is not to blame.  She made no vows to me."  June would have been furious and hurt at the mistress as well, rightly so.

And I don't know why people also assume the man gets away scott-free.  The men I know who cheated on their spouses had absolute hell to pay. It's just not publicly known because it happened behind closed doors.  Or in albums.  See, for example, Carter, Sean Corey.

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, felicity porter said:

It doesn't matter that June didn't make vows.  It's called basic human decency.  You respect other people's marriages because you would want someone to respect yours, whether it's at its best or at it's worse.  And, in turn, that means not sleeping with a married person and being a third party that either explicitly or implicitly champions the end of a marriage.  If Gilead had not happened, I'm sure June and Luke's marriage would have gone through rough patches, as all marriages do.  And if Luke cheated again (because when June's silly ass married him a job position opened up), I'm sure June's position wouldn't have been "Oh, the mistress is not to blame.  She made no vows to me."  June would have been furious and hurt at the mistress as well, rightly so.

And I don't know why people also assume the man gets away scott-free.  The men I know who cheated on their spouses had absolute hell to pay. It's just not publicly known because it happened behind closed doors.  Or in albums.  See, for example, Carter, Sean Corey.

@AngelaHunter you’re right- people are not property that can be stolen. More often than not people chose to stay with their spouse over the person on the side because they STILL want their spouse and their marriage, they just want to have their cake and eat it too...... It’s easier for the hurt party to blame the 3rd party because they never loved him/her etc. of course that doesn’t make it right. 

 

 In our patriarchal society the other woman usually gets blamed more than the cheating man (who was the most wrong party absolutely), but that doesn’t mean the other woman was acting in the right if they knew the guy was married when she began/continued the affair. And it seems June did know that Luke was married when she got involved with him. Of course she doesn’t deserve to be assaulted or stalked in any way but Anne showing up one time to call her out was kind of deserved IMO. And June knew it too that’s why she didn’t yell back, just got in her car and left.

If a wife cheats people rarely look to the other man, they either accuse her of being a slut, OR say her husband must’ve been an abusive asshole and that’s why she was forced into another man’s arms. Ummmhmmmm. 

[LeGrandElephant]

I don’t understand the logistics of Omar being caught because of June. If that’s what happened, why weren’t the gestapo at his apartment in time to catch June? I also agree that taking her back to the Boston Globe offices, and then telling whoever his contact is, would have made more sense than taking her home, but I get that they wanted us to see how the regular people live. 

I also don’t understand why Rita gave June back all those letters in the middle of the room like that. If she’s so scared of being caught with them, why didn’t she get rid of them months ago? She had no reason to think June would ever come back. 

[LeGrandElephant]

On 5/10/2018 at 5:56 AM, AllyB said:

I have a slight fear that the posters here are giving far more thought to the sequence of events around Omar's compromise and capture than the writers have done. I have a suspicion that these episodes are written showing "what" happens on screen with less thought given to the off-screen "how" and "why" that leads to what we see. In fact, it struck me at the start of the episode that in the time between June's recapture and the opening scenes, she would have been interrogated repeatedly about where she has been and who helped her. Gilead wouldn't have messed about and accepted some badly thought out, inconsistent story. The odds are June would have compromised the Guardian who helped her in the hospital, the man who drove her to the Boston Globe and those offices themselves as her safe house. If she somehow managed to come up with a clever story about where she has been that didn't compromise her helpers, and managed to stick with it, we needed to be told that. Because that would be an amazing achievement. 

But I don't think the writers are thinking each logical step through. I lost a lot of faith in them when they had the Mexican ambassador tell us that Gilead, with it's wilful ignorance of best baby making practices, is somehow a world baby making leader. It showed that they are prioritising drama over thought out storytelling. There hasn't been anything quite so egregious since then, though there are little signs like Moira escaping to Ontario rather than Quebec. And now a complete side-step of the fact that Gilead would be desperate to know absolutely every detail of June's escape. This show is mostly very well acted, the cinematography is mostly beautiful, the direction is mostly great, it is based on an excellent novel, and has numerous very well written scenes. All of which go to cover up for the fact that most of the story arc that is coming as an addition to the novel is really, really bad. I'll keep watching for the excellent acting and the fact that there are elements of the novel's plot that I am quite looking forward to seeing, but I'm wary and have very little faith in the writers' ability to plot.

Good points I hadn’t even thought of! A lot of the practical logistics don’t make sense in this show. 

 

Has the show ever actually said that the reason June was targeted is that Luke was previously married? I know that fact from the book and I guess it’s been implied I’m fhe show but I don’t remember the show ever explicitly saying that Gilead declared all re-marriages after divorces invalid. 

[NoSpam]

4 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Good points I hadn’t even thought of! A lot of the practical logistics don’t make sense in this show. 

 

Has the show ever actually said that the reason June was targeted is that Luke was previously married? I know that fact from the book and I guess it’s been implied I’m fhe show but I don’t remember the show ever explicitly saying that Gilead declared all re-marriages after divorces invalid. 

June had a voice over when Omar took her home. "so this is where the econo people live. This is where I'd live if I'd been married in the right church... If I'd played my cards right... If I'd known I was supposed to be playing cards."

 

I don't think she said anything about Luke being divorced.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

Good points I hadn’t even thought of! A lot of the practical logistics don’t make sense in this show. 

 

Has the show ever actually said that the reason June was targeted is that Luke was previously married? I know that fact from the book and I guess it’s been implied I’m fhe show but I don’t remember the show ever explicitly saying that Gilead declared all re-marriages after divorces invalid. 

I can't point you to specific scenes, but it certainly seems the show has more than IMPLIED it.  Probably in scenes with Aunt Lydia, June's sin of marrying a divorced man making her a sinner, and thus now a Handmaid have been everywhere.  Also it's been in June's voice overs I think, as well as the other reasons to make women Handmaid's.  Gender Traitor, divorced, or married a divorced man, ever had an abortion, etc.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Umbelina

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, NoSpam said:

June had a voice over when Omar took her home. "so this is where the econo people live. This is where I'd live if I'd been married in the right church... If I'd played my cards right... If I'd known I was supposed to be playing cards."

 

I don't think she said anything about Luke being divorced.

She also said "if I hadn't been an adulteress". In the biblical sense, a person who marries someone who'd been married before is also an adulterer/ess.

[Higgins]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 9:19 AM, DrSpaceman said:

I wholeheartedly agree.

I would much rather learn more about how Gilead came to power, how they managed to pull off a huge coup of the US government, the resistance network, more of a global picture of what is happening

But I don't expect that to occur.  At least anytime soon.  The book and the show seem to focus on the microcosm of the handmaids and their relationships, hence the name of the show and book, of course, and seems to be emphasizing how the smaller things little by little that we allow to happen, each freedom taken away and removed, slowly, one by one, adds up over time to more power given to your oppressors until you just can't fight back anymore in a reasonable way. 

As the show gets more away from the book, though, I am hoping we learn more about other characters and stories involved rather than just torturing handmaids.  I expect most of this season will continue to be though how June/Offred makes if through the pregnancy and if she lives after that. 

The parallel to another show would be Orange is the New Black, which started off based on a book but over time has drifted, thankfully, more to stories of the other women and bigger issues in the prison system rather than just a focus on the original main character. 

The thing I found most interesting in this episode, and has been pointed out by others, is the power Aunt Lydia seems to have.  Not just over the Handmaids, but the wives.  Her scene with putting out the cigarette was very telling.  She has more power in some ways than any other female, and she knows it.  And uses it seemingly to control everyone she can. 

That story would be very hard to believe so they can't tell it. 

[Scarlett45]

On 6/24/2018 at 4:33 PM, chocolatine said:

She also said "if I hadn't been an adulteress". In the biblical sense, a person who marries someone who'd been married before is also an adulterer/ess.

Yes- June was targeted for that reason. Had Luke not been previously married they would’ve been an econo-family (assuming they didn’t manage to escape). 

[Hanahope]

I don't think Gilead knew June was going to be on the plane, that was just a happy coincidence/result for them.  If they knew she was there, they would have been more careful with their guns.  Afterall, the driver got shot a couple of times.  June could have easily been shot and lost the baby.

I also agree that it wasn't June's fault that Omar and his family were caught.  I have no doubt that once the safehouse was captured, Gilead tortured those people and they gave up Omar, as they knew Omar was going to make a delivery.  I suspect that while people were 'baggage' sometimes, it wasn't all the time.  Those letters that June received and was originally supposed to pass on, were likely more typical baggage.  Even if the safehouse people didn't know Omar's name, how many tall black men drove a bread truck in the area?  They'd find him soon enough.  

And it seems clear to me that Omar and his family held out for some time.  Enough time for June to get to the airfield (which was also given up by the safehouse people, as they knew about deliveries to the airfield), as I think the guardians would have come to the apartment if they knew about her immediately.  Its possible that Omar even held out long enough that Gilead didn't know he was connected to June until she was captured.  And after searching Omar's home, they found June's discarded clothes (or someone's unsanctioned clothes), plus the religous paraphenalia.  Even w/o June, once they found out he was still a practicing Muslim, Omar was done, and his family.  His hood was printed with a crescent and star, not a resistence mark.

I loved seeing June find herself again and be defiant after her capture.  I sure hope that aunt Lydia hasn't broken her, even if she has to 'go along' for the time being.  

I didn't see, did all the handmaids have burned hands?  I tried to look at hands, but didn't really see.

I assume, although it hasn't been shown, that women who were divorced from their husbands because the husband's cheated and wanted to marry their mistresses, like Annie, were also considered 'fallen women' and either forced into being handmaids or sent to the colonies.  What if these women had remarried and had children with their second husband (who hadn't previously been married)?  Maybe it would depend on whether they went to church?  Swore fealty?  

I agree that it seemed odd to see all those econowives on the train without any men with them, without any explanation as to where they were going to or from.

[Tyro49]

They've broken June, at least for the moment.

Luke's ex was stalking them, and glaring at their baby. Where is she in the new Gilead, or is she even alive? (Or is she Hannah's adoptive mom??)