S13.E20: Unfinished Business

[belbar]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if I want to be kind (sometimes I do!) the writers (and Singer in particular) have always been tone-deaf about the fans.  I can see Glynn thinking that's a good line and forgetting how much the fans would overreact.  Maybe.  I don't think Glynn had anything particularly against MS to make such a dig on purpose, and I can't see Speight being so deliberately insulting to him--as director, he could have taken it out.  Maybe he thought it would be "homage"? (Or is there some BTS tension between the two of them that I don't know about?)

Lol. If you want to be kind (sometimes) about the writers, you're definitely a better person than me.

Anyway no I don't think this is a conspiracy against Mark, and to be honest I hadn't considered that Speight directed the episode and whatever may or not happen in the cons. But I stand by my opinnion that is not a not so happy coincidence either. Whose idea it was, or how it worked to end up on our screens I admit that I have no clue.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh. And Dean's encounter with Loki one on one.

  Hide contents

I wonder if that is who Dean ends up becoming and it's not Michael nor Death.  I don't know why that would happen other than Dean asking for it so he can stealth move around the AU.

Thats what my husband said!

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

What a snub to Mark!

While watching I thought it was a tip of the cap to him. YMMV

[belbar]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

They could not be so awful because Mark Sheppard has his fans.

And he made all of those tees didn't he.

 Respect and consideration are nice too.

[MysteryGuest]

On a side note, I finally realized where I'd seen the tallest of the three sons Gabriel killed...he was the security guard that Charlie had to flirt past when we first meet her in The Girl With the....  It was driving me crazy because I knew he was familiar, but I couldn't place him.  One of these days we should compile a list of all of the actors who've played multiple roles on this show.  Someone may have already done that, for all I know.  

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.  So this season has been annoying at best, because he's become a whole different--and less interesting--character.  I'm not fond of Richard's acting; and having twice as much in one episode was way too much for me.  Not only did we get a long and clunky flashback in order to give an explanation of how/why Gabriel is still alive, but it still didn't make much sense.  And who cares? (At least, cares enough to give it so much screen time in one of the last eps of the season when they should be trying to build to the climax.)  

Sorry, Richard, the idea of playing two different characters *and* directing?  Might have seemed like a great way to prove  how skilled you are at multitasking to TPTB, but it came across as self-indulgent to me with all the closeups and long lingering looks at yourself.  There's a reason why most actors who also direct themselves usually choose (or are given) episodes where they're in as few scenes as possible, because you can't be in two places at the same time and so one of the jobs will get short shrift.  And I'm getting tired of his "homages" to various other movies, which I have to find out about in reviews, since I mostly haven't seen them and so miss the point.  Sorry--I've never been a film noir fan. 

I was going to quote the parts that I especially agreed with, but it is all of this! First, I dislike the idea of wasting an episode like this when there are only 3 episodes left in the season. Especially a season that has been as scattered and at times as incoherent as this one has been.

Second, "self-indulgent" is exactly the phrase that came to my mind as well. I thought the actor's ego was definitely on display here. It isn't his show, in my opinion, and I dislike him using it as a platform to show off.

Third, I am annoyed by the thought that Gabriel was brought back because the actor is such a huge fan favorite. I get that he is beloved by the fans at the cons, but the show should never have become an appendage to the conventions, rather than the other way around. Gabriel should only have been brought back if there was a good story reason for it. (If not, maybe the actor could have just acted out the story from this episode as a skit at one of the cons, for his fans, instead of having it on the show.)

Edited April 27, 2018 by Bergamot

[Bobcatkitten]

I loved the scene at the end. Dean and Sam are different people and have different perspectives and actually talking about them is wonderful. To me Dean isn't being any different than he always has. He has always been willing to sacrifice himself for Sam. And for that case other close "family" members. Heck he has put himself in harm's way a million times on a hunt. So I don't see anything new or different. 

At the same time I liked Sam bringing up that he is going to be part of however this goes down. That they do stuff together. It was powerful. 

I had a few tiny annoyances - mostly Gabriel whining about the torture to two people who have been tortured for much longer - but otherwise I was very entertained by this one. Gabriel is a douche but he does amuse sometimes. I was happy to see him take some licks. And a trade - their help for his - seems more like him. 

I always love consistency in the show - Dean's green bag, his love for magic fingers. And porn. 

 

I did laugh at the two meta moments - the kazoo and the Kentucky Fried dbag. Ha

[belbar]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Third, I am annoyed by the thought that Gabriel was brought back because the actor is such a huge fan favorite. I get that he is beloved by the fans at the cons, but the show should never have become an appendage to the conventions, rather than the other way around. Gabriel should only have been brought back if there was a good story reason for it. (If not, maybe the actor could have just acted out the story from this episode as a skit at one of the cons, for his fans, instead of having it on the show.)

100% agree.

[Bergamot]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is on a suicide mission and I don't know why.  There is a trajectory here, but they are not fleshing it out particularly well.

Yes, I know what you mean. There is definitely a tie-in here back to "Advanced Thanatology" -- Dean telling Billie that he "doesn't matter", that he is just dragging Sam down; Billie accusing Dean of wanting to die, and Dean not denying it. When they got Cas back, this darkness inside of Dean seemed to recede, but maybe he was just repressing it. It would have helped if there had been more signs along the way that this death wish was still hidden inside of him -- it would have been nice if the writers had taken more care with the character arcs for once -- but I guess I can believe it.

I could be wrong, probably I am, but I thought that perhaps Sam had the wrong end of the stick in their conversation at the end, when he questioned whether Dean's reckless, death-defying actions were caused by a need to protect Sam. "So that's what you think you're doing here?" he says to Dean, and is insulted by the thought that Dean is putting him at the "kid's table". But Dean seemed evasive to me in that scene, and I was wondering if maybe he was using what Sam said to him to cover the fact that it was not just about that. Maybe it's because I don't see any sudden special danger to Sam in particular that would trigger Dean, and also because I thought it was jarring the way he openly and flatly stated "I don't care what happens to me" -- but I thought this was about more than Sam for once. I thought maybe it is about Dean wanting to die.

In which case it probably wasn't a good idea for Sam to respond with, "If we die, we'll do that together too". That is almost like throwing down a challenge to Dean, although Sam didn't intend it that way, and I found the expression on Dean's face after Sam left the room to be pretty interesting.

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Holy crap. How is that even an agree to disagree? It's canon what Dean said in s1. LOL

And I just watch him say it in Alpha and Omega, too-S11.

I swear Dabb hasn't watched the show in it's entirety or even as recently as that. Ridiculous writing/showrunning. Utterly ridiculous.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That felt like a total waste of time to me, and, for the first time in 9 years of live-watching I almost turned off the TV halfway through.  (That's not counting Bloodlines, which I turned off after 10 minutes.)  :)  

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.  So this season has been annoying at best, because he's become a whole different--and less interesting--character.  I'm not fond of Richard's acting; and having twice as much in one episode was way too much for me.  Not only did we get a long and clunky flashback in order to give an explanation of how/why Gabriel is still alive, but it still didn't make much sense.  And who cares? (At least, cares enough to give it so much screen time in one of the last eps of the season when they should be trying to build to the climax.)  

Sorry, Richard, the idea of playing two different characters *and* directing?  Might have seemed like a great way to prove  how skilled you are at multitasking to TPTB, but it came across as self-indulgent to me with all the closeups and long lingering looks at yourself.  There's a reason why most actors who also direct themselves usually choose (or are given) episodes where they're in as few scenes as possible, because you can't be in two places at the same time and so one of the jobs will get short shrift.  And I'm getting tired of his "homages" to various other movies, which I have to find out about in reviews, since I mostly haven't seen them and so miss the point.  Sorry--I've never been a film noir fan.  

My bottom line is--absolutely nothing new in there (except Kevin's death.)  Nothing that couldn't have been covered in the "previouslys" in 10 seconds.  No new insights into character, no new plans.  A few good fight scenes that didn't advance any plot.  And if, like me, you're done with Gabriel, Mary and Jack, absolutely nothing to see here.  

 

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I was going to quote the parts that I especially agreed with, but it is all of this! First, I dislike the idea of wasting an episode like this when there are only 3 episodes left in the season. Especially a season that has been as scattered and at times as incoherent as this one has been.

Second, "self-indulgent" is exactly the phrase that came to my mind as well. I thought the actor's ego was definitely on display here. It isn't his show, in my opinion, and I dislike him using it as a platform to show off.

Third, I am annoyed by the thought that Gabriel was brought back because the actor is such a huge fan favorite. I get that he is beloved by the fans at the cons, but the show should never have become an appendage to the conventions, rather than the other way around. Gabriel should only have been brought back if there was a good story reason for it. (If not, maybe the actor could have just acted out the story from this episode as a skit at one of the cons, for his fans, instead of having it on the show.)

I'm going to third these posts and add that giving us Gabrielnatural at this point in the season was such a waste IMO, too. SUCH! a waste.

Quote

Dean is on a suicide mission and I don't know why.  There is a trajectory here, but they are not fleshing it out particularly well.

 

34 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I know what you mean. There is definitely a tie-in here back to "Advanced Thanatology" -- Dean telling Billie that he "doesn't matter", that he is just dragging Sam down; Billie accusing Dean of wanting to die, and Dean not denying it. When they got Cas back, this darkness inside of Dean seemed to recede, but maybe he was just repressing it. It would have helped if there had been more signs along the way that this death wish was still hidden inside of him -- it would have been nice if the writers had taken more care with the character arcs for once -- but I guess I can believe it.

I could be wrong, probably I am, but I thought that perhaps Sam had the wrong end of the stick in their conversation at the end, when he questioned whether Dean's reckless, death-defying actions were caused by a need to protect Sam. "So that's what you think you're doing here?" he says to Dean, and is insulted by the thought that Dean is putting him at the "kid's table". But Dean seemed evasive to me in that scene, and I was wondering if maybe he was using what Sam said to him to cover the fact that it was not just about that. Maybe it's because I don't see any sudden special danger to Sam in particular that would trigger Dean, and also because I thought it was jarring the way he openly and flatly stated "I don't care what happens to me" -- but I thought this was about more than Sam for once. I thought maybe it is about Dean wanting to die.

In which case it probably wasn't a good idea for Sam to respond with, "If we die, we'll do that together too". That is almost like throwing down a challenge to Dean, although Sam didn't intend it that way, and I found the expression on Dean's face after Sam left the room to be pretty interesting.

And these posts are interesting to me too-and for the same reasons-again, especially the bolded parts.

[bearcatfan]

I guess I’m unusual in that generally those that Sam and/or Dean care about, I care about. The only exception I can think of is Amelia, and then I still cared about how it affected Sam. 

Interesting that despite making the deal with Gabe, they didn’t expect him to keep his end of the bargain. Even more interesting that Gabe decided to stay. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

meaning this time was the second time, wow, that`s not even a pattern yet, just a line

I'm thinking back to the episode in which Eileen was murdered (by Ketch) and Sam decided that two hunters being killed was a pattern. So for him, he probably does think Dean acting on his on volition and not seeking Sam's approval, is a pattern. LOL.

Sam rant about Dean putting him at the kids table was so far out of line as to be ridiculous. Sam could have said something like "Dean, remember the last time you took off without me, you got killed by Metatron and turned into a demon!".  See how adult that would have been and he won't make a better case that that. IMO that rant was bad writing that serves neither brother IMO. 

If I really thought the writers/Dabb/Singer were really creative at all and had the capacity, I would believe we are dealing with multiple versions of Dean, Sam and Cas since they all crossed over to the AW and came back, coupled with Dean and Sam being in the "Bad Place".  Because then all their inconsistencies would at least have some rationale. 

I agree that it was a really bad take in that "revenge" scene for Dean to not call out Sam for his vengeance in the past. I swear it's almost like the show is trying to get us to forget that Sam's entire arc in the first season was all about vengeance and that he was driven by vengeance WRT to Lilith. Why not have Sam be reminded of his own past vengeance quests other than to set up his "bonding" with Gabriel. 

I am also laughing that a mention of Sam seeing Lucifer's true face, is now being blown up into an ongoing thing, which BTW I called back when it came up in the first place. Just sayin'. I want that noted for posterity, ;)

Sam just staring at a clock isn't enough for me to think he's really been dealing with that horror for all this time? For years?  I don't find that to be interesting way to tell the story here. It leaves me uninvested in Sam's emotional life to do it that way. 

I do think Jensen is playing something else underneath Dean. I saw it back in the episode when he said he had faith. I thought that was a really weird thing for Dean to say, and even then I noted it seemed OOC. I don't think he's become a Man of Faith. I think he's saying it for reasons that have to do with what I think he already knows about Sam and his deaths and that is why he doesn't want Sam to go with him. Maybe he knows that somehow he himself might be responsible for Sam's death ( a la MoC!Dean), except this time it's unintentional vs the potential in s10. I am 99.9999999% certain that won't actually be the case but throwing it out there as some unspoiled spec.

I just overall find this to be an unsatisfying and frustrating episode. And I don't like Gabriel so that didn't help.

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I guess I’m unusual in that generally those that Sam and/or Dean care about, I care about. The only exception I can think of is Amelia, and then I still cared about how it affected Sam. 

Interesting that despite making the deal with Gabe, they didn’t expect him to keep his end of the bargain. Even more interesting that Gabe decided to stay. 

The thing for me is why would Sam even care about Gabriel? Other than my theory that Sam is a masochist.

Aside from Sam being a masochist. I would much rather he be shown to be a manipulator. That all of this "bonding" and seeing himself in them is just a ploy. I'll have more of a kind of respect for Sam if he just flat out admits that he manipulates these entities to help him and Dean and they fall for it. I would actually prefer that over this notion that he cares about these assholes that have grievously harmed him and his family.

I'm actually okay with him wanting to kill Lucifer but I don't think it meshes with the kumbaya crap from s11. It doesn't even need to be framed as vengeance.  Gabriel getting vengeance on Loki and his minions is a lot different than taking out the Devil. So I'm not really seeing the correlation the show was trying to drawIt's frakking Lucifer. Kill him because he's the Devil and that's good enough for me LOL. And IMO Dean knows how Sam dies and he's trying to stop it.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And IMO Dean knows how Sam dies and he's trying to stop it.

Im going to have to rewatch Advanced Thanotology when I get home later to see if there are any clues I may have missed the first time around

[Casseiopeia]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And IMO Dean knows how Sam dies and he's trying to stop it.

I hope that is the case.  That would make sense.  Although I would like to hear how Dean knows this.  Did he make a deal with Billie when he visited her?  Is she finally collecting on the Cosmic Consequences?  Do we have writers that won't screw this up?

[bearcatfan]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The thing for me is why would Sam even care about Gabriel? Other than my theory that Sam is a masochist.

Aside from Sam being a masochist. I would much rather he be shown to be a manipulator. That all of this "bonding" and seeing himself in them is just a ploy. I'll have more of a kind of respect for Sam if he just flat out admits that he manipulates these entities to help him and Dean and they fall for it. I would actually prefer that over this notion that he cares about these assholes that have grievously harmed him and his family.

I'm actually okay with him wanting to kill Lucifer but I don't think it meshes with the kumbaya crap from s11. It doesn't even need to be framed as vengeance.  Gabriel getting vengeance on Loki and his minions is a lot different than taking out the Devil. So I'm not really seeing the correlation the show was trying to drawIt's frakking Lucifer. Kill him because he's the Devil and that's good enough for me LOL. And IMO Dean knows how Sam dies and he's trying to stop it.

I haven’t figured out how to only quote part on my phone so I’m sorry for qoting the whole thing rather than the first part that I’m responding to. 

I was specifically talking about Mary and Jack. Several people have stated that they don’t care about them because they haven’t seen them in a while. I should have been more specific but I’m reading and responding between sessions at a conference, so I cut it short. By the time I finished reading everything, the next session was starting. Sorry about that. 

[Icarus]

Having just watched the latest episode I am feeling really rather frustrated. We have three more episodes before the end of Season 13 and this episode was basically all about Gabriel and his back story etc etc etc. Why do I or why should I care?? I guess because we are all supposed to be so happy to have him back we needed all this information that they have just decided to make up. Well I don't care, found Gabriel an interesting character when he was the trickster and then turned out to be Gabriel but that was then and now not so much.

 

The Mary and third son part was all so, well just all so, …. I guess, their acting did not convince me of anything and I just can't get interested now in any Mary story. Now I like Jack or the idea of Jack rather – lots of potential and he has such a lot of the same saccharin expression I am sure it means something. That was a bit strong, I do think he still has a potential to be an interesting character it is just that they either are not giving him much to express or he only has the one expression.

 

As far as Dean and Sam goes, well I am lost, I personally like them to be on the same page – co dependent whatever I just like the Bros to be together so not looking forward to the Dean being suicidal to save same “arc” or whatever they are bringing next. Where Cas fits in to anything – is also a mystery to me at the moment.

 

By the way what and why are “people” not talking more about Kaia – are we waiting for a Wayward story for her reappearance?

 

Anyway sorry for such a lot of nark – three glasses of wine just bring it out in me!

[FlickChick]

As far as I'm concerned, a person needed three glasses of wine to get through the Richard Speight Jr show. I only have two things to add. Richard Speight - director - had absolutely no business directing Richard Speight - actor. It was an embarrassing mess as far as I'm concerned. And Meredith Glynn should watch the series before she writes another episode. What a waste of forty-five minutes of my life.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

As far as I'm concerned, a person needed three glasses of wine to get through the Richard Speight Jr show. I only have two things to add. Richard Speight - director - had absolutely no business directing Richard Speight - actor. It was an embarrassing mess as far as I'm concerned. And Meredith Glynn should watch the series before she writes another episode. What a waste of forty-five minutes of my life.

I like grumpy Dean.

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Im going to have to rewatch Advanced Thanotology when I get home later to see if there are any clues I may have missed the first time around

Or he is still in self sacrifice mode. He has pretty much been doing the racing off alone/ solo hunting thing all season.  He has been depressed all season.  The only time he has hesitated was when he had to put his hand in the hole a la Indiana Jones.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought it was harmless but unnecessary. Back in Season 5 I really enjoyed the "psych, I`m the archangel Gabriel" twist on the Trickster but did we really need a convoluted twist on the twist? Just to get a Kill Bill story for the guy? I mean, was anyone really, really jonesing for that? It wasn`t terrible material but this close to the Finale, it seemed like padding.    

Don`t know what Speight was going on about in his interview. It`s not like Gabe bonded terribly well with Sam as opposed to Dean. He was adressing them pretty equally over the entire episode. Yes, Sam was on his side but that was because Sam really did want to live vicarously through Gabe`s Kill Bill hommage and wanted to gather data on how well it worked. 

Which, those were ridiculous character beats. Dean sought vengeance here and there over the show, sure. But Sam`s entire arc in Season 1 started with a vengeance quest just like John`s. So why was Dean saying a line like "you have seen it with me, with Dad..."  He has experienced it himself. And why does Sam have to ask Gabriel how it felt and actually fucking believed that it felt incredibly satisfying? Back in Season 5 they invented Brady the demon and retconned him to be Jessica`s real killer so Sam got a personal revenge scene with him. He can draw from that experience on how it felt afterwards. Guessing he realized it didn`t make Jessica any less dead.

That was ludicrous. Especially Sam being all gung-ho to go after Lucifer now after the Cage. There have been Seasons between that and now, one of them in which Lucifer was in the bunker and Sam and Dean played family therapists with him. You didn`t see anything of this all-consuming vengeance kink then. That is just such disjointed writing. 

I liked Dean just pointing out how pointless everything was over the course of the episode.  Thank you, Dean.

Gabe whining about his horrible torture of seven years to the brothers was just completely tone-deaf. I wish the scene had them reading a newspaper and just giving Gabriel incredulous looks when he rambled on about his torture. 

The final scene was just eh. Sam saying it was "a whole shtick with Dean lately" and then said lately meant the rift episode with Ketch, meaning this time was the second time, wow, that`s not even a pattern yet, just a line. And I liked Dean pointing out that they talked about it. Of course Sam deflected that but yes, if he wants to, he CAN speak up in the moment. He could have put his food down but he didn`t. I just don`t like he turns it back on Dean when he isn`t happy with his own choices. "You put me at the kiddie table". 

He didn`t PUT you anywhere, Sam. Start acknowledging that and change your own place at whatever table you wanna sit at. Dean is not your maitre d`. It`s not his job to take you to the seat of your liking. 

Conversely, I didn`t like how Dean gave another little song and dance about the glorious codependency. Jeez. 

And why are they yammering on about Lucifer/Michael at the moment? There is Michael in the AU-world and there is Lucifer in our world. But it`s not like the two are specifically gearing up for each other. Michael wants to invade, if Lucifer is there or not. He couldn`t give less of a crap about Lucifer per se when they met in AU-land.   

There has been a pattern actually... without the advantage of rewatch and off the top of my head... Dean has gone solo in the Wraith/western episode, AT (which was the crash course on Dean Winchester self sacrifice end game maneuvvers in preparation for the finale for anyone not paying attention previous), the Thing episode, the Rift episode and this one.  Plus Jody saw him do it in the psychic episide I think and Sam saw him do it in Love Hurts (s11) which is the first time besides the Hellhound/Trials episode in which Sam has actually tried to discuss Dean's suicidal tendencies. And of course they visited the therapist for family counseling this season....   

So Sam is pretty well aware of Dean's impulse to sacrifice himself to save others and/or to get a win when he is despondent and depressed.  Sam is scared and he should be.

[Whodunnit]

On 4/26/2018 at 8:21 PM, BoxManLocke said:

You can pretend all you want that Jack and Mary now share a mother/son bond, without seeing it get formed naturally I'm not going to care.

This.

Oh I completely forgot about Kaia.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Im going to have to rewatch Advanced Thanotology when I get home later to see if there are any clues I may have missed the first time around

She observes that something has fundamentally changed in Dean.  I forget the exact wording but more or less Dean is broken, depressed and suicidal is the takeaway.  Billie is big picture now and strongly intimate that he is too important to die because there is something he has to do.

I don't think this has anything to do with Sam or her than Dean has always been protective of Sam.  That is a Dean trope.

Dean is being extra reckless this,seadon with his life. And is desperate to save Mom.  He pretty much states that in the episode.

[Whodunnit]

And this episode definitely looks like it was written by a fanfiction writer. Clever fanfic writers will take the 'flaws' of an episode and exploit them to create a 'what if' scenario, and I think that's exactly what they did.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm thinking back to the episode in which Eileen was murdered (by Ketch) and Sam decided that two hunters being killed was a pattern. So for him, he probably does think Dean acting on his on volition and not seeking Sam's approval, is a pattern. LOL.

Sam rant about Dean putting him at the kids table was so far out of line as to be ridiculous. Sam could have said something like "Dean, remember the last time you took off without me, you got killed by Metatron and turned into a demon!".  See how adult that would have been and he won't make a better case that that. IMO that rant was bad writing that serves neither brother IMO. 

If I really thought the writers/Dabb/Singer were really creative at all and had the capacity, I would believe we are dealing with multiple versions of Dean, Sam and Cas since they all crossed over to the AW and came back, coupled with Dean and Sam being in the "Bad Place".  Because then all their inconsistencies would at least have some rationale. 

I agree that it was a really bad take in that "revenge" scene for Dean to not call out Sam for his vengeance in the past. I swear it's almost like the show is trying to get us to forget that Sam's entire arc in the first season was all about vengeance and that he was driven by vengeance WRT to Lilith. Why not have Sam be reminded of his own past vengeance quests other than to set up his "bonding" with Gabriel. 

I am also laughing that a mention of Sam seeing Lucifer's true face, is now being blown up into an ongoing thing, which BTW I called back when it came up in the first place. Just sayin'. I want that noted for posterity, ;)

Sam just staring at a clock isn't enough for me to think he's really been dealing with that horror for all this time? For years?  I don't find that to be interesting way to tell the story here. It leaves me uninvested in Sam's emotional life to do it that way. 

I do think Jensen is playing something else underneath Dean. I saw it back in the episode when he said he had faith. I thought that was a really weird thing for Dean to say, and even then I noted it seemed OOC. I don't think he's become a Man of Faith. I think he's saying it for reasons that have to do with what I think he already knows about Sam and his deaths and that is why he doesn't want Sam to go with him. Maybe he knows that somehow he himself might be responsible for Sam's death ( a la MoC!Dean), except this time it's unintentional vs the potential in s10. I am 99.9999999% certain that won't actually be the case but throwing it out there as some unspoiled spec.

I just overall find this to be an unsatisfying and frustrating episode. And I don't like Gabriel so that didn't help.

He has faith in himself and his ragtag team.. He knows he is all there is because God told him so.

I agree.  Jensen''s face can carry an episode.

I think he knows on some level after AT something big, something gamechanging is,going to happen to him and he is worried  for everyone because he thinks he wom't be there to protect them.  

Death... she signals him for a cryptic talk. Shows him his potential deaths.  Tellls him not to do something he has to do.  Tells him that the world will need him to do something.  

And he is profoundly broken and depressed 

[bozodegama]

Omg , I just watched that episode.  I was blown away.  A real old school Gabriel episode, I laughed so hard my neighbors thought I was dying.  As good as Changing channels, almost as good as Tall tales or Mystery spot funny.  Happy Gabe is on the team, I hope.   I loved the Sam/ Dean interaction at the end.  Sams “we’ll die together” and Deans look.  Just classic.  Didn’t really love the Mary/Jack soap opera as much. And do we really need to kill the characters again.  Seems a little redundant.

[DeeDee79]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

On a side note, I finally realized where I'd seen the tallest of the three sons Gabriel killed...he was the security guard that Charlie had to flirt past when we first meet her in The Girl With the....  It was driving me crazy because I knew he was familiar, but I couldn't place him.  One of these days we should compile a list of all of the actors who've played multiple roles on this show.  Someone may have already done that, for all I know.  

It always tickles me when I recognize an actor that was used in a previous season. Like in Advanced Thanatology ( I don't know if anyone has mentioned this already ) I noticed that the mother of the boy that was taken from his home by the MOTW was also Alice Cassity from Trial and Error. 

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That felt like a total waste of time to me, and, for the first time in 9 years of live-watching I almost turned off the TV halfway through.  (That's not counting Bloodlines, which I turned off after 10 minutes.)  :)  

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.  So this season has been annoying at best, because he's become a whole different--and less interesting--character.  I'm not fond of Richard's acting; and having twice as much in one episode was way too much for me.  Not only did we get a long and clunky flashback in order to give an explanation of how/why Gabriel is still alive, but it still didn't make much sense.  And who cares? (At least, cares enough to give it so much screen time in one of the last eps of the season when they should be trying to build to the climax.)  

Sorry, Richard, the idea of playing two different characters *and* directing?  Might have seemed like a great way to prove  how skilled you are at multitasking to TPTB, but it came across as self-indulgent to me with all the closeups and long lingering looks at yourself.  There's a reason why most actors who also direct themselves usually choose (or are given) episodes where they're in as few scenes as possible, because you can't be in two places at the same time and so one of the jobs will get short shrift.  And I'm getting tired of his "homages" to various other movies, which I have to find out about in reviews, since I mostly haven't seen them and so miss the point.  Sorry--I've never been a film noir fan.  

My bottom line is--absolutely nothing new in there (except Kevin's death.)  Nothing that couldn't have been covered in the "previouslys" in 10 seconds.  No new insights into character, no new plans.  A few good fight scenes that didn't advance any plot.  And if, like me, you're done with Gabriel, Mary and Jack, absolutely nothing to see here.  

I agree 100% with all of this. I've never been fond of Gabriel but I did enjoy him in Hammer of the Gods. *sigh* Another entertaining ep tainted by retconning.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That felt like a total waste of time to me, and, for the first time in 9 years of live-watching I almost turned off the TV halfway through.  (That's not counting Bloodlines, which I turned off after 10 minutes.)  :)  

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.  So this season has been annoying at best, because he's become a whole different--and less interesting--character.  I'm not fond of Richard's acting; and having twice as much in one episode was way too much for me.  Not only did we get a long and clunky flashback in order to give an explanation of how/why Gabriel is still alive, but it still didn't make much sense.  And who cares? (At least, cares enough to give it so much screen time in one of the last eps of the season when they should be trying to build to the climax.)  

Sorry, Richard, the idea of playing two different characters *and* directing?  Might have seemed like a great way to prove  how skilled you are at multitasking to TPTB, but it came across as self-indulgent to me with all the closeups and long lingering looks at yourself.  There's a reason why most actors who also direct themselves usually choose (or are given) episodes where they're in as few scenes as possible, because you can't be in two places at the same time and so one of the jobs will get short shrift.  And I'm getting tired of his "homages" to various other movies, which I have to find out about in reviews, since I mostly haven't seen them and so miss the point.  Sorry--I've never been a film noir fan.  

My bottom line is--absolutely nothing new in there (except Kevin's death.)  Nothing that couldn't have been covered in the "previouslys" in 10 seconds.  No new insights into character, no new plans.  A few good fight scenes that didn't advance any plot.  And if, like me, you're done with Gabriel, Mary and Jack, absolutely nothing to see here.  

I finally watched the episode tonight, and I could've written every word of this. It was filler-material at best, and with about 160 minutes of storytelling time left in the season, they spent 15 of them spouting exposition about Gabriel from 8 years ago? Dudes. I just don't care. And the bolded - I bet he wet his pants when he found out he could have two of himself on the screen at the same time. His homages have not worked for me at all - this one gave me a headache.

The nonsense about Dean and John needing revenge, with no mention that it was Sam's raison d'etre for seasons at a time - first for Jess, then for Dean - just pisses me off. And Sam? if you didn't agree with Dean 'sidelining' you, the time to speak up was when it happened. Being a whiny bitch about weeks later is just... whiny. And bitchy.

I won't even comment on Mary, except to say I hope she dies over there.

The twitter exchange with Dabb's flunky says it all. They know nothing about Dean Winchester.

[Castiels Cat]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I finally watched the episode tonight, and I could've written every word of this. It was filler-material at best, and with about 160 minutes of storytelling time left in the season, they spent 15 of them spouting exposition about Gabriel from 8 years ago? Dudes. I just don't care. And the bolded - I bet he wet his pants when he found out he could have two of himself on the screen at the same time. His homages have not worked for me at all - this one gave me a headache.

The nonsense about Dean and John needing revenge, with no mention that it was Sam's raison d'etre for seasons at a time - first for Jess, then for Dean - just pisses me off. And Sam? if you didn't agree with Dean 'sidelining' you, the time to speak up was when it happened. Being a whiny bitch about weeks later is just... whiny. And bitchy.

I won't even comment on Mary, except to say I hope she dies over there.

The twitter exchange with Dabb's flunky says it all. They know nothing about Dean Winchester.

Sam cared nothing for the family business or even finding dad. It was revenge.

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Im going to have to rewatch Advanced Thanotology when I get home later to see if there are any clues I may have missed the first time around

There wasn't anything on screen but I wondered if Billie showed Dean Sam's death in some way. I dunno. Just a thought.

[juppschmitz]

On 27.4.2018 at 6:24 AM, catrox14 said:

When did vengeance mess Dean up?

John's quest for vengeance did mess him up. (I'm not sure that this is what this assistant person means, though.)

[trudysmom]

Here's an idea:  Let's lock the writers/showrunner/producers/directors in a room and make them re-watch the series from the beginning.  Over an over again, just like we do.  They must never have re-watched an episode, much less a season to continue to get so much wrong.  Have they met these guys, the Winchesters?  It's like watching that old Bugs Bunny cartoon where Daffy is drawing Bugs over and over into different characters.  The voice is Bugs, but the body is different.  Here, the faces are the same but the words they're being forced to say don't match up to the characters they've been in the past.  I so want this show to end...RIGHT.  Stop mucking it up, writers.  Just because you let the shark in doesn't mean we have to jump it.

[belbar]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I finally watched the episode tonight, and I could've written every word of this. It was filler-material at best, and with about 160 minutes of storytelling time left in the season, they spent 15 of them spouting exposition about Gabriel from 8 years ago? Dudes. I just don't care. And the bolded - I bet he wet his pants when he found out he could have two of himself on the screen at the same time. His homages have not worked for me at all - this one gave me a headache.

The nonsense about Dean and John needing revenge, with no mention that it was Sam's raison d'etre for seasons at a time - first for Jess, then for Dean - just pisses me off. And Sam? if you didn't agree with Dean 'sidelining' you, the time to speak up was when it happened. Being a whiny bitch about weeks later is just... whiny. And bitchy.

I won't even comment on Mary, except to say I hope she dies over there.

The twitter exchange with Dabb's flunky says it all. They know nothing about Dean Wincheste

+ 1000 to the whole post.

[Reganne]

I enjoyed this episode and I have a different take on the last scene with Sam and Dean.  Yes, Sam didn't speak up last time about going through the rift and that is why he is speaking up now.  As far as he's concerned, he's not going to let it happen again.  That's why I don't understand why people are getting angry over what he said.  Maybe Sam regrets not going into the rift before so that is why he is speaking up now.  

 

Not to mention, with the way that Dean and Ketch left Sam to take care of Gabriel, he didn't really have whole lot of choice in the matter.  What was he suppose to do?  Leave a messed up archangel in the bunker?  They didn't wait for Cas, so who would know to open up the rift again?   IMO, Dean left immediately after getting the grace so he could have those excuses to go it alone to protect both Cas and Sam.  If they had of waited for Cas, the situation would have been different and there would have been no excuse but to let either Cas or Sam join him.

 

So yes, while everyone is saying Sam should have just done what he wanted and gone in the rift (nvm the fact that if Sam did that, he would be criticized for not listening to Dean, Gabriel left alone, no one to open the rift) Isn't he doing exactly what everyone is saying he should have done before and speaking up for himself now?  He can't change the past and go through the rift at this moment.  He can only look forward, so he is taking a stand to become a part of it now.  If only the writers allow him to do that and not make Sam the main damsel/knocked out once they get to apocalypse world.

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Maybe Sam regrets not going into the rift before so that is why he is speaking up now.  

 

This Sam should have said this rather than blaming Dean for making him sit at the kids table.  Dean didn't make Sam do anything and Sam needs to stop blaming Dean for his choices.

Quote

Not to mention, with the way that Dean and Ketch left Sam to take care of Gabriel, he didn't really have whole lot of choice in the matter.  What was he suppose to do?  Leave a messed up archangel in the bunker?  They didn't wait for Cas, so who would know to open up the rift again?   IMO, Dean left immediately after getting the grace so he could have those excuses to go it alone to protect both Cas and Sam.  If they had of waited for Cas, the situation would have been different and there would have been no excuse but to let either Cas or Sam join him.

Maybe Dean realized that Sam and Gab shared a more profound bond and Sam had a better chance to reach Gabe.  Not to mention when Cas did show up, Sam also could have told Cas to look after Gabe and gone into the rift.  At that point there was nothing stopping him but his own choice.

Edited April 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

That's why I don't understand why people are getting angry over what he said.

For me, it is literally what he said as in the way he phrased it. "You put me at the kiddie table". That ironically is the phrasing of a kid who complains to their parent. Sam is saying Dean has been a big meanie and Dean needs to change. If Sam is unhappy with his choices, then it is him who has to change. I actually agree that speaking up now - if he feels he should have spoken up before - is such a change. But if he just speaks up to demand Dean changes his actions, it`s no good. This air of "poor, victimized me" is really annoying in such instances.  

Sam had a choice to go through the rift once Cas arrived at the bunker to look after Gabe. There doesn`t appear to have a lot of time passed between Dean going and Cas returning so at that point IMO it`s no longer a valid reasoning to go "I was stuck at the bunker because of Gabe". Sam made a choice to prioritize Gabriel then, which wasn`t a bad choice. But he and he alone was the master of that choice. 

With a different dialogue, I would have far less problems with that scene. But a replay of that horrible Paris Hilton episode? Nope. Couldn`t stand it the first time.    

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, Reganne said:

So yes, while everyone is saying Sam should have just done what he wanted and gone in the rift (nvm the fact that if Sam did that, he would be criticized for not listening to Dean, Gabriel left alone, no one to open the rift) Isn't he doing exactly what everyone is saying he should have done before and speaking up for himself now?

My issue isn't with Sam, it's with the writers.  It would have been better, and would have made Sam look a hell of a lot better, if he had just told Dean to stuff it when he started in with his "that's the way it's going to be" shit.  I'm not saying it didn't make sense for him to stay behind, because I think it actually did.  As did Sam, when he was relating what happened to Cas.  The writers are the ones who make Sam seem whiny when he takes this long to actually speak up about something.  He absolutely is an equal of Dean's, and after all of this time, he shouldn't be so hesitant to give it right back to him when he pulls that "I'm the boss of you" crap.  I think the writers do it because they think it adds drama and angst between the brothers, but it really doesn't do either brother any favors.  

I did watch the episode again yesterday, and I agree with others that it was just way too much Gabriel/Loki for my taste.  I didn't realize he was such a beloved character to rate an entire episode to his back story.  Especially a retconned back story.  I can only assume that it's because they want to stretch out the AU Michael story into next season, and they needed a filler episode.  I'd have much preferred a monster-of-the-week than what we got.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

John's quest for vengeance did mess him up. (I'm not sure that this is what this assistant person means, though.)

Correct. that doesn't seem to be what the assistant meant though. She said it was character growth for Dean which ignores that Dean already talked the cost of vengeance back in s1. Someone actually replied to her pointing that out and her reply was "agree to disagree". 

Why the dialogue didn't have Dean say specifically that Sam was also on that vengeance train is s1, tells me the show either doesn't remember that Sam was all about that vengeance or it's actively disregarding it for...reasons.

[Reganne]

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This Sam should have said this rather than blaming Dean for making him sit at the kids table.  Dean didn't make Sam do anything and Sam needs to stop blaming Dean for his choices.

Maybe Dean realized that Sam and Gab shared a more profound bond and Sam had a better chance to reach Gabe.  Not to mention when Cas did show up, Sam also could have told Cas to look after Gabe and gone into the rift.  At that point there was nothing stopping him but his own choice.

 

 

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me, it is literally what he said as in the way he phrased it. "You put me at the kiddie table". That ironically is the phrasing of a kid who complains to their parent. Sam is saying Dean has been a big meanie and Dean needs to change. If Sam is unhappy with his choices, then it is him who has to change. I actually agree that speaking up now - if he feels he should have spoken up before - is such a change. But if he just speaks up to demand Dean changes his actions, it`s no good. This air of "poor, victimized me" is really annoying in such instances.  

Sam had a choice to go through the rift once Cas arrived at the bunker to look after Gabe. There doesn`t appear to have a lot of time passed between Dean going and Cas returning so at that point IMO it`s no longer a valid reasoning to go "I was stuck at the bunker because of Gabe". Sam made a choice to prioritize Gabriel then, which wasn`t a bad choice. But he and he alone was the master of that choice. 

With a different dialogue, I would have far less problems with that scene. But a replay of that horrible Paris Hilton episode? Nope. Couldn`t stand it the first time.    

This is the time that Sam is making the choice to have that change.  He essentially told Dean he's going and he's not going to stop him.  If they die, they die together.  As far as the kiddie table comment, I guess that is how Sam feels still after 13 seasons.  He has a right to feel that way.

 

As far as Sam going into the rift after Cas arrived, we don't know how much time had elapsed between Dean and Ketch leaving and Cas arriving but even a half an hour would land Sam with the trouble of having to find Dean and Ketch in a big world.  Even if Sam managed to magically guess the right way, he would still be a half hour behind them.  Sam going in their alone would have been pointless considering they only had 24 hours with the rift open.  He would be spending the majority of his time looking for Ketch and Dean and possibly heading the wrong way in apocalypse world on his own.  The fact of the matter is, they are stronger as a team.  Sam wouldn't have accomplished much going through the rift on his own and he knows that.  That's why Dean's plan worked so well.  Go in right away so they don't have time to get Cas onboard so both Sam and Cas have little logical choice but to stay back.  It wouldn't make sense for either of them to go through the rift on their own.  The only way for that to make sense would be if the rift were open for a longer period of time.  Then I could maybe see your point, because that would give the character time to find their team. With all that in mind, I could see how Sam would feel sidelined.  

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

This is the time that Sam is making the choice to have that change.  He essentially told Dean he's going and he's not going to stop him.  If they die, they die together.  As far as the kiddie table comment, I guess that is how Sam feels still after 13 seasons.  He has a right to feel that way.

 

If Sam felt like Dean was sidelining him then again it should have been brought up during that time.  Not weeks later.  Sam has no trouble voicing his opinions to Dean if he feels strongly enough about something.  Just this episode Dean wasn't onboard with the whole revenge thing.  He even told Sam it was stupid and pointed out Sam was making it personal. Sam stood his ground.  He's more than capable, so this is why Sam came across as whiny. The situation two episode ago was no different.

It's not on Dean to let Sam do anything.  He's 35 years.  If he wants to sit that the adults table he can just pull up a chair.

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 Sam going in their alone would have been pointless considering they only had 24 hours with the rift open

This is Deans' logic about why Sam should stay behind.  It's a valid point.   One Sam agreed too. So I don't get why he's complaining about it now. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Maybe Sam regrets not going into the rift before so that is why he is speaking up now.  

 

That wasn't Sams argument though. He reduced his own position to a childish argument about Dean putting him at the kids table.  Sam could have made another adult argument of the logical reasons why Dean shouldn't have gone without him. I

After s12 when Sam made the speech about being a leader, he's now regressing back to "you're treating me like a kid!". which wasn't actually what Dean did.

Dean told Sam the reason was that he needed him there if he didn't get back in 24  hrs was to save him. If Sam wanted to go with Dean he could have gone. If Sam didn't want Dean to go, he needed to make a stronger  case when Dean left. If Sam wants to be a  leader then he needs to speak up when the time is right and that was when Dean was going.

it's strange to me that Sam didn't keep any of Gabriel's grace incase the Rift closed. That's not good leadership nor does it seem he cared about saving Dean which makes me think that  Sam had his own plan to kill Lucifer  and wanted Gabriel at full power to help him. Otherwise Dean was trapped. How could Sam have done that? Does Sam subconsciously hate Dean?

TLdr: Dean had a logical reason for Sam not going, Sam failed to make sure he had grace to save Dean and then tried to shift that failure on to Dean with the bs kids table excuse, which makes Sam look really bad and so I choose to believe Sam is attempting to manipulate Dean, but I think Dean sees through it.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How could Sam have done that? Does Sam subconsciously hate Dean?

Because the writers allowed them to have two vials of grace, one to open the rift and one to save Gabriel.  It's not a plot against Dean by Sam, it's just more stupid writing.  Cas was there when Sam gave the grace to Gabriel, so if it were something they could save part of, then Cas is equally to blame.  And since I don't think either one of them were plotting against Dean, I go back to stupid writing for plot purposes.

Edited April 28, 2018 by MysteryGuest
I hate auto correct!!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 As far as the kiddie table comment, I guess that is how Sam feels still after 13 seasons.  He has a right to feel that way.

But he can`t blame Dean for it and that`s what he did. That part felt to me basically like "waaaah, you`re so mean". If he wants to not be treated like a kid - which IMO Dean wasn`t even doing - then this attitude is entirely the wrong way to go about it.  

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

it's strange to me that Sam didn't keep any of Gabriel's grace incase the Rift closed.

Even I don't have a problem with Sam and Cas's decision to give Gabriel his grace back but there should have a brief hesitation or a throwaway line about it being Dean's only way back.

I could also point out that if Dean went with Sam instead of Ketch he'd be dead since it was Ketch who knew how to stop the poison. 

 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How could Sam have done that? Does Sam subconsciously hate Dean?

Honestly, I've been going back and forth on this issue (both sides actually) since season 4.  But this isn't the thread so I'll leave it there.

Edited April 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But he can`t blame Dean for it and that`s what he did. That part felt to me basically like "waaaah, you`re so mean". If he wants to not be treated like a kid - which IMO Dean wasn`t even doing - then this attitude is entirely the wrong way to go about it.  

He can feel anyway he wants to feel about it, even if he wants to blame Dean for sidelining him from entering the rift before.  IMO Dean set it up that way, so I can see where Sam is coming from.  I don't fault Dean for his actions personally bc I know he is worried about losing another loved one, but I can see how Sam would be upset with it.  Dean's not perfect.  Sam has the right to be upset with him sometimes.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Because the writers allowed them to have two vials of grace, one to open the rift and one to save Gabriel.  It's not a plot against Dean by Sam, it's just more stupid writing.  Cas was there when Sam gave the grace to Gabriel, so if it were something they could save part of, then Cas is equally to blame.  And since I don't think either one of them were plotting against Dean, I go back to stupid writing for plot purposes.

I was being facetious about Sam hating Dean. I don't think he does.

I don't actually think Sam was plotting against Dean and was not intending to imply that he was.

I'm saying that given this business about Lucifer's true face, I think it is possible for Sam to be desperate enough to kill Lucifer that he wanted to keep Gabriel on the shelf to help him. Sam might not even be aware that's entirely what he's doing.  I'm just saying that for me, it would make Sam's actions and reasons now make a lot more sense than the tired old "Wahhhh Dean is being mean to me" when that's not what Dean was actually doing.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

He can feel anyway he wants to feel about it, even if he wants to blame Dean for sidelining him fro. Entering the rift before.  IMO Dean set it up that way, so I can see where Sam is coming from.  I don't fault Dean for his actions personally nc I know he is worried about losing another loved one, but I can see how Sam would be upset with it.  Dean's not perfect.  Sam has the right to be upset with him sometimes.

He can feel however he wants about it, and has the right to be upset.  But if he wants Dean (and especially us)  to see him as a strong adult making a reasonable statement, then he should *sound* like an adult and not a whiny child.  This is the same thing he said back in season 5; but there's a difference between 27 years old and almost 36, and he's been through a lot of changes since then.   Let him express his frustration/anger/disappointment in the logical manner he uses on other things.  Dean takes him seriously when he *is* serious.  This complaint makes him sound like he *deserves* to be at the kiddy table.  

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was being facetious about Sam hating Dean. I don't think he does.

I don't actually think Sam was plotting against Dean and was not intending to imply that he was.

I'm saying that given this business about Lucifer's true face, I think it is possible for Sam to be desperate enough to kill Lucifer that he wanted to keep Gabriel on the shelf to help him. Sam might not even be aware that's entirely what he's doing.  I'm just saying that for me, it would make Sam's actions and reasons now make a lot more sense than the tired old "Wahhhh Dean is being mean to me" when that's not what Dean was actually doing.

So you think Sam is more concerned for his own revenge on Lucifer than Dean, Jack and Mary?  I don't understand this at all.  Maybe Sam gave Gabriel his grace bc it belongs to Gabriel.  Not them.  It was a means to help Gabriel.  

 

At this point in the season, the only thing Sam has asked Gabriel for help with is AU Michael and the rift.  I think if Lucifer was his main concern, he would have added that to the mix as well.  As it is now, Sam seems more concerned with AU Michael where his need for help from Gabriel is concerned.  

 

I guess I just don't see everything Sam does as selfish like a lot of people here do.

Just now, ahrtee said:

He can feel however he wants about it, and has the right to be upset.  But if he wants Dean (and especially us)  to see him as a strong adult making a reasonable statement, then he should *sound* like an adult and not a whiny child.  This is the same thing he said back in season 5; but there's a difference between 27 years old and almost 36, and he's been through a lot of changes since then.   Let him express his frustration/anger/disappointment in the logical manner he uses on other things.  Dean takes him seriously when he *is* serious.  This complaint makes him sound like he *deserves* to be at the kiddy table.  

The same thing could be said about Dean when he gets angry, shouts and throws things when he feels.  This is something toddlers do.  But I didn't deny or criticize Dean's actions for expressing the way he feels.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The same thing could be said about Dean when he gets angry, shouts and throws things when he feels.  This is something toddlers do.  But I didn't deny or criticize Dean's actions for expressing the way he feels.

That's getting in BvJ.  I'm not intending to make any comparisons or say one is better than the other, just point out that *in this case* (as mentioned in this episode) I felt that Sam should have phrased it better.  

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's getting in BvJ.  I'm not intending to make any comparisons or say one is better than the other, just point out that *in this case* (as mentioned in this episode) I felt that Sam should have phrased it better.  

Ditto with how Dean deals with things.  Sometimes he could do it better.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Reganne said:

Ditto with how Dean deals with things.  Sometimes he could do it better.

Not going to agree or disagree, because it's irrelevant to this conversation (and this thread.)  You can move to BvJ if you want.