S13.E20: Unfinished Business

[catrox14]

Just now, Reganne said:

He can feel anyway he wants to feel about it, even if he wants to blame Dean for sidelining him from entering the rift before.  IMO Dean set it up that way, so I can see where Sam is coming from.  I don't fault Dean for his actions personally bc I know he is worried about losing another loved one, but I can see how Sam would be upset with it.  Dean's not perfect.  Sam has the right to be upset with him sometimes.

No one is saying Sam doesn't have the RIGHT to feel the way he does.   He has the right to feel any way he wants.  He might even believe it's true. That's his reality. That doesn't mean he is factually correct about that situation.

If he perceives it that way, then maybe he's the one that still sees himself at the kids table, rather than Dean putting him there.  How does he go from "you have to let me do this Dean in s5" to General Winchester in s12 and now this?

If he is choosing to follow by not speaking up in a more timely fashion, then I would argue, he's not really learned anything. And IMO speaking up now, it's too late, IMO.   Sure Cas was there, but IMO the show is pushing this angst between Dean and Sam. It's setting up to be the issue between the boys themselves. Cas was pissed about but didn't take it as a personal insult that Dean acted unilaterally. Different relationships with different reactions. Cas is almost extraneous to that situation. If the writing can't bother to have Cas join in the convo about Dean's actions in this episode, but he's there to "help  Gabriel settle in" then how much should Cas' feet be held to the fire? 

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Reganne said:

So you think Sam is more concerned for his own revenge on Lucifer than Dean, Jack and Mary?  I don't understand this at all.  Maybe Sam gave Gabriel his grace bc it belongs to Gabriel.  Not them.  It was a means to help Gabriel.  

I didn't...say that...like at all.

Despite this episode pretending that Sam has never been driven by vengeance, see s1 and s4 and it is in his wheelhouse, I'm not saying that he's doing it on purpose.

If seeing Lucifer's True Face is as awful as Rowena related and that has been Sam's ongoing experience which we didn't really know about, then perhaps it's affecting him much more profoundly than is being shown.  So then Sam's survival lizard brain (this is not an insult) the deep unconscious/subconscious part of his mind could be reasoning that if he kills Lucifer, he'll stop being tormented by his true face.  And that basic need to stop his own suffering might be driving him in a way he doesn't even understand himself. I'm saying he may not even understand that's what he's doing.

For me, it would be a lot better for Sam to be acting in a manner that he's not entirely aware of here rather than believing he still thinks Dean is trying to marginalize him. IF I'm incorrect in my theory,  then Sam has more issues with Dean he has to work on himself. 

I also wonder if Dean is acting out of his own lizard brain about Mary and Sam so he's drafting ideas in his head that he does in the spur of the moment.  I said before that Dean could have waited for Cas at least, but he didn't. And that is still NOT putting Sam at the kids' table even if Sam perceives it that way. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He can feel anyway he wants to feel about it, even if he wants to blame Dean for sidelining him from entering the rift before. 

It`s generally one of my most annoying things Sam can do to blame others for his own choices if he feels badly about those choices afterwards. Those scenes drives me nuts and if someone did that to me, I would verbally rip them to shreds. 

So, this was one of those super-annoying scenes for me. Especially when I perceive how the writers want me to see it and think "oh, mean Dean gets told off". Yeah right, not with this kind of writing. 

And I actually did think it was a "buzzuh?" moment to have Dean slip away like that to confront Loki. I mean, was I really supposed to take this entire thing seriously as a big scary threat? That Dean just felt compelled to run at it alone? If they were going after AU!Michael and Dean pulled something like this, I could see the point. But Loki? You could kill him with a piece of wood. 

Dean himself walked up to him with deadpan boredom. I would sooner believe that he went in solo out of extreme boredom with this entire "case" than a need to protect Sam in this specific situation.   

So the entire situation felt incredibly forced to me, just to get to that final convo. And Dean suddenly being all "I don`t care about me" felt out of left field, too. It`s like I turn around for a moment and when I look back, a respective other brother is suddenly "depressed". I thought right now it was Sam with Dean going "I have faith". But that apparently changes from moment to moment, too.     

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

My issue isn't with Sam, it's with the writers.  It would have been better, and would have made Sam look a hell of a lot better, if he had just told Dean to stuff it when he started in with his "that's the way it's going to be" shit.  I'm not saying it didn't make sense for him to stay behind, because I think it actually did.  As did Sam, when he was relating what happened to Cas.

Sam did try to talk Dean into taking him along, but Dean gave him reasons why that wasn't feasible at that time. And Dean was not waiting. He couldn't, not with the thought in his head that Mary was being tortured; and Sam was the logical choice to stay behind with Gabriel because Sam is apparently the more "empathetic" of the two brothers and he is(again, apparently and under Dabb and according to Speight in that interview, too) the one who has more of a "bond" with Gabriel and it appeared in that episode as if Sam understood both of those things at that time.

Dean said to Sam, "I know you don't like it, but that's the way it's going to be." and Sam said nothing. And if he had, it would have been nothing more than a time-wasting fight precisely because Dean had already laid out his plan and Sam KNEW then that it was the best one and that because Dean simply wasn't going to wait for Cas to get there, and in truth, I think Sam knew and agreed with Dean's choice to want to go right away because he also had to have been concerned about Mary being tortured.

I think he only brought it up in this week's episode because he wanted it to fit the pattern he thinks he's seeing of Dean haring off on his own. Dean brought up the I don't matter stuff, but he also said that Sam and Gabriel had the situation with the one demi-god well in hand, so he felt freed up to go after Loki.

I don't think we were seeing Dean treating Sam like a kid again-not in Dean's mind anyway. I think that in Dean's mind, he's seeing Sam as a competent hunter  now who can take care of himself and doesn't need someone to trail after him which frees Dean up to be and do what he wants to on the hunts(and it could be that that was what that little smile from Dean was all about after Sam made the kiddie table comment).

Unfortunately, Dean being freed up to be and do what he wants on the hunts means that he feels he can be as reckless and impulsive with his own life as he wants to be also-and that was why the "I don't matter" part was worrisome, but also why it was put in there, IMO-because it may be that they are finally and at long last going to deal with the deep depression that we saw in Dean in Advanced Thanatology, but that has also been a part of the character, in varying degrees, since Day One of this show.

And IA with others, that it's also possible that the little smile from Dean could also be seen as Dean just seeing that it wasn't going to be easy for Sam to understand that it's highly possible(and, in truth, even more likely) that the brothers are simply not going to "die together"-and this, especially if Dean is ever in the position of being able to, in any way, save his brother.

And there is also the thought/idea out there, that Dean knows more(from Billie) about both of their "deaths" than he's told Sam, at this point, which is also a very intriguing idea to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

On rewatch, I wonder if Dabb lost a bet, or Rich has something on him, because that was one self-indulgent piece of crap as far as direction goes. Wow.

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On rewatch, I wonder if Dabb lost a bet, or Rich has something on him, because that was one self-indulgent piece of crap as far as direction goes. Wow.

I just watched again-but admit to using the FF button on a lot of it-and yeah, IA that this one was a real stinker for the most part, but Jensen was so good in it. I loved his more "negative" reactions to everything. Lots of AngryDean and Blazing Eyes and Sarcastic Looks. I think he even got say the line "Oh, come on...This is all so stupid." which totally cracked me up.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

This is all so stupid.

That was my favorite line of the night.  

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Dean said to Sam, "I know you don't like it, but that's the way it's going to be." and Sam said nothing. And if he had, it would have been nothing more than a time-wasting fight precisely because Dean had already laid out his plan and Sam KNEW then that it was the best one and that because Dean simply wasn't going to wait for Cas to get there, and in truth, I think Sam knew and agreed with Dean's choice to want to go right away because he also had to have been concerned about Mary being tortured.

I still think Sam's reaction to Dean saying "that's how it's going to be" should have been more fuck you and less hurt puppy look.  As a younger sibling myself, I get that the "I'm older, therefore I get to choose" argument works when your 12 and 8, but when you're 39 and 35, it's a bullshit argument.  It's entirely possible that this is just a hot button for me, but if I were Sam, we'd being that conversation as soon as Dean got back.  

[companionenvy]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I still think Sam's reaction to Dean saying "that's how it's going to be" should have been more fuck you and less hurt puppy look.  As a younger sibling myself, I get that the "I'm older, therefore I get to choose" argument works when your 12 and 8, but when you're 39 and 35, it's a bullshit argument.  It's entirely possible that this is just a hot button for me, but if I were Sam, we'd being that conversation as soon as Dean got back.

The question is, what would "Fuck you, I'm doing X" have actually looked like in practice? Dean was determined to go through the rift right away. He had a valid case for why someone had to stay back. The problem wasn't what wound up happening - Dean going to the AU and Sam in the bunker -- it was how they got to that point. It can't really be compared to RL situations, unless the RL situation also involves various people being in or assuming imminent mortal peril. 

I suppose Sam could have knocked Dean out to prevent him from going and either gone in his stead or decided that they should both wait. I suspect that wouldn't have been well received. Sam could have said "Well, if someone's going, why does it have to be you?" I think that would have been petty, and would have been seen as such. He could have brought up Dean not making decisions unilaterally right then and there, but it was kind of the definition of "not the time or place." I see his actual response as a lot more mature. He accepted it, let it go, but then when something similar happened a second time, he brought it up once they were no longer in the heat of battle. 

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The question is, what would "Fuck you, I'm doing X" have actually looked like in practice? Dean was determined to go through the rift right away. He had a valid case for why someone had to stay back. The problem wasn't what wound up happening - Dean going to the AU and Sam in the bunker -- it was how they got to that point. It can't really be compared to RL situations, unless the RL situation also involves various people being in or assuming imminent mortal peril. 

I suppose Sam could have knocked Dean out to prevent him from going and either gone in his stead or decided that they should both wait. I suspect that wouldn't have been well received. Sam could have said "Well, if someone's going, why does it have to be you?" I think that would have been petty, and would have been seen as such. He could have brought up Dean not making decisions unilaterally right then and there, but it was kind of the definition of "not the time or place." I see his actual response as a lot more mature. He accepted it, let it go, but then when something similar happened a second time, he brought it up once they were no longer in the heat of battle. 

I agree.  I think Sam chose to bring it up at the end of this episode because of the whole Dean running off after Loki himself and leaving Sam behind.  This action of Dean's IMO was the reason why Sam chose to bring it up now.  Now he's saying "I'm going to be apart of it next time".  To me it makes perfect sense why he would bring it up now.  Why would Sam bring it up right after Dean got back from apocalypse world when Dean was already visibly upset with Gabriel's absence and the possibility of not getting back through the rift again.  Honestly, I think Sam did the right thing there.  Let Dean have his moment to get out his frustrations.  That would have been the worst time for Sam to bring it up IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The question is, what would "Fuck you, I'm doing X" have actually looked like in practice?

Dean made his comments to Sam before the rift was ever opened, so there was plenty of time for Sam to say "no", we're going to take 10 minutes and discuss this.  Sam's the one who actually worked the spell to open the rift, so he had the control to make Dean listen. And  I'm really not being critical of Sam here, I'm being critical of the scene.  Dean came off no better.  He sounded like a bullying ass, and if I were Sam, I'd have been pissed.  My point was that the writing doesn't show either brother in the best light.  And I get that they aren't perfect, and they are going to butt heads and act like assholes on occasion, but I personally don't think there would have been anything wrong with having a scene showing Sam and Dean actually discussing what their next step should be, rather than what we got.  The end result actually made logical sense, so why not allow the brothers to come to that same decision without anyone having to bully or cow tow to anyone else?  That's my beef.  These are grown men now, not hot-headed boys.

[Bobcatkitten]

The kiddie table thing didn't bother me because I think that is what Dean does sometimes. And frankly he conceded that by saying "I'm not going to apologize for protecting you." 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This is Deans' logic about why Sam should stay behind.  It's a valid point.   One Sam agreed too. So I don't get why he's complaining about it now. 

Because back then when Sam agreed to it, it mostly just looked like the good idea that it was, so why would Sam object all that much? Objecting to a plan that made sense just to butt heads with Dean would've been wasting time and potentially making himself annoying for little gain. However... looking at the same situation in hindsight after Dean went running off to get the big guy on his own in this episode, Sam thought to himself "wait a minute... maybe Dean wanting to go into the rift right away and wanting me to stay behind as back up wasn't just because it was a good plan. Maybe Dean had another reason to do it that way." And so now maybe he feels manipulated, and that changed the entire way he saw the situation. How was Sam supposed to know back then that something would happen later to make him look at the entire situation differently and so therefore he should have objected? ***

So now Sam had additional information that made him look at the previous situation differently - whether he's right or wrong about the conclusion he's jumping to is a different matter, but that's the way he's thinking about it - and now he's questioning it and it's annoying him. So instead of taking a bunch of sentences to explain "well, yes, at the time it seemed like a good plan, and so that's why I went along with it, but now based on what happened today, I'm wondering if that was your only motivation for doing that, and so now blah blah blah...." by which time Dean might've either fallen asleep during the explanation or left the room to get a snack until Sam finished. Sam's kid's table comment - while it could've been said better, sure - accomplished two things 1) It was much faster and 2) it was a bit annoying, so if some of that was indeed part of Dean's motivation - as Sam suspected - Sam could watch Dean's gut reaction to see if he could pick that up. Fighting a bit dirty and potentially deflecting - yes... but also potentially more effective. No long explanation so Dean could gear up with a good counter excuse/argument to whatever Sam was saying by emphasize the good plan part and saying "see even you thought that was the best way to go."

Just a flat out "I think this might have been part of your motivation," in an annoying way, to get a reaction from Dean.

*** It reminds me a little bit of season 6 where Sam wondered out loud if Castiel had left his soul in hell on purpose. He had no reason to think that way previously, but when he saw Castiel acting weirdly the way he was, than he wondered. And when the thought struck Sam, he didn't take the time to phrase it more delicately.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

it's strange to me that Sam didn't keep any of Gabriel's grace incase the Rift closed. That's not good leadership nor does it seem he cared about saving Dean which makes me think that  Sam had his own plan to kill Lucifer  and wanted Gabriel at full power to help him. Otherwise Dean was trapped. How could Sam have done that? Does Sam subconsciously hate Dean?

Theoretically he would have Gabriel right there - with maybe more Grace if he could recharge some. Sam is usually a hopeful creature, so he didn't expect Gabriel to just ditch them.

I mean Dean didn't consider Ketch might go mwah ha ha and kill him once they got over to the AU, but Sam's supposed to know Gabriel is going to ditch them again after Sam did the right thing?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

I agree.  I think Sam chose to bring it up at the end of this episode because of the whole Dean running off after Loki himself and leaving Sam behind.  This action of Dean's IMO was the reason why Sam chose to bring it up now.  Now he's saying "I'm going to be apart of it next time".  To me it makes perfect sense why he would bring it up now.  Why would Sam bring it up right after Dean got back from apocalypse world when Dean was already visibly upset with Gabriel's absence and the possibility of not getting back through the rift again.  Honestly, I think Sam did the right thing there.  Let Dean have his moment to get out his frustrations.  That would have been the worst time for Sam to bring it up IMO.

He didn't run off and leave Sam behind this week. He left him and Gabriel fighting. If it was really only about controlling Sam, he'd have stayed for that fight, too. 

Sam needs to stop blaming or making excusesfor his own choices when he doesn't like how they turn out. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam needs to stop blaming or making excusesfor his own choices when he doesn't like how they turn out. 

Sam didn't have problem with how things turned out. He had a problem with what he saw as how they came to that result... which he didn't have a problem with until he thought he saw a pattern that might've lead them to that "how" and said "wait a minute. On second thought, there is maybe more going on here than I originally thought... now I don't want to just let this go."

There's a difference, in my opinion.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm not going to apologize for protecting you." 

Making a  unilateral decision is not treating Sam like a kid. It is kind of being an ass though.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Because back then when Sam agreed to it, it mostly just looked like the good idea that it was, so why would Sam object all that much? Objecting to a plan that made sense just to butt heads with Dean would've been wasting time and potentially making himself annoying for little gain. However... looking at the same situation in hindsight after Dean went running off to get the big guy on his own in this episode, Sam thought to himself "wait a minute... maybe Dean wanting to go into the rift right away and wanting me to stay behind as back up wasn't just because it was a good plan. Maybe Dean had another reason to do it that way." And so now maybe he feels manipulated, and that changed the entire way he saw the situation. How was Sam supposed to know back then that something would happen later to make him look at the entire situation differently and so therefore he should have objected? ***

So now Sam had additional information that made him look at the previous situation differently - whether he's right or wrong about the conclusion he's jumping to is a different matter, but that's the way he's thinking about it - and now he's questioning it and it's annoying him. So instead of taking a bunch of sentences to explain "well, yes, at the time it seemed like a good plan, and so that's why I went along with it, but now based on what happened today, I'm wondering if that was your only motivation for doing that, and so now blah blah blah...." by which time Dean might've either fallen asleep during the explanation or left the room to get a snack until Sam finished. Sam's kid's table comment - while it could've been said better, sure - accomplished two things 1) It was much faster and 2) it was a bit annoying, so if some of that was indeed part of Dean's motivation - as Sam suspected - Sam could watch Dean's gut reaction to see if he could pick that up. Fighting a bit dirty and potentially deflecting - yes... but also potentially more effective. No long explanation so Dean could gear up with a good counter excuse/argument to whatever Sam was saying by emphasize the good plan part and saying "see even you thought that was the best way to go."

Just a flat out "I think this might have been part of your motivation," in an annoying way, to get a reaction from Dean.

*** It reminds me a little bit of season 6 where Sam wondered out loud if Castiel had left his soul in hell on purpose. He had no reason to think that way previously, but when he saw Castiel acting weirdly the way he was, than he wondered. And when the thought struck Sam, he didn't take the time to phrase it more delicately.

Theoretically he would have Gabriel right there - with maybe more Grace if he could recharge some. Sam is usually a hopeful creature, so he didn't expect Gabriel to just ditch them.

I mean Dean didn't consider Ketch might go mwah ha ha and kill him once they got over to the AU, but Sam's supposed to know Gabriel is going to ditch them again after Sam did the right thing?

Why would Sam think Gabriel would stick around? His MObisbto bail except like once.

I disagree that Dean didn't consider that Ketch might kill him. He took a stupid risk.

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The kiddie table thing didn't bother me because I think that is what Dean does sometimes. And frankly he conceded that by saying "I'm not going to apologize for protecting you." 

Good point.  He didn't even attempt to deny it or brush it off as nothing.  

[ahrtee]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam didn't have problem with how things turned out. He had a problem with what he saw as how they came to that result... which he didn't have a problem with until he thought he saw a pattern that might've lead them to that "how" and said "wait a minute. On second thought, there is maybe more going on here than I originally thought... now I don't want to just let this go."

There's a difference, in my opinion.

At that point, *that's* what he should have said.  I would have applauded.  OTOH, "you're putting me at the kiddie table" is NOT Sam standing up for himself but asking Dean to do it for him.  That's my problem with that.  

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

At that point, *that's* what he should have said.  I would have applauded.  OTOH, "you're putting me at the kiddie table" is NOT Sam standing up for himself but asking Dean to do it for him.  That's my problem with that.  

I don't get this.  Sam's essentially asking Dean not to just run off on his own and allowing them to work as a team together to fight in this battle.  How is he suppose to do that without asking Dean to be on board with it? Is Sam just suppose to just go on his own on these missions and fight separately from where Dean is?

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I don't get this.  Sam's essentially asking Dean not to just run off on his own and allowing them to work as a team together to fight in this battle.  How is he suppose to do that without asking Dean to be on board with it? Is Sam just suppose to just go on his own on these missions and fight separately from where Dean is?

Sorry...I don't understand what you don't get about the difference between what @AwesomO4000 suggested he say, and what he actually *did* say.  I also don't see how anything said (or not said) even suggests that Sam should "go on his own on these missions and fight separately."  That's a whole different story from being left behind or left out of the decision-making, and IMO is the exact opposite of what Dean intended.  YMMV.

[Reganne]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...I don't understand what you don't get about the difference between what @AwesomO4000 suggested he say, and what he actually *did* say.  I also don't see how anything said (or not said) even suggests that Sam should "go on his own on these missions and fight separately."  That's a whole different story from being left behind or left out of the decision-making, and IMO is the exact opposite of what Dean intended.  YMMV.

I don't get your point about Sam getting Dean to stand up for him.  Sam needs Dean if he wants to work as a team.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I don't get your point about Sam getting Dean to stand up for him.  Sam needs Dean if he wants to work as a team.

That has nothing to do with what I was saying, but never mind.  :)  

[companionenvy]

To sum up what I think we're all saying in these last few posts: 

Sam's problem if that he isn't willing to be in a partnership where his ostensible partner is acting in large measure with the goal of minimizing Sam's risk. Sam is free, of course, to take his own stupid risks, but he can't actually prevent Dean from acting with the goal of taking Sam out of the line of fire unless he discusses it with Dean and Dean agrees. The fact that Sam could theoretically have jumped into the rift or run after Loki wouldn't have altered the essential problem that Dean's goal is to put Sam first. Which isn't necessarily a poor reflection on Dean, but it understandably isn't something that Sam is willing to live with, not only because of petty ego - although wanting to be treated as an equal isn't actually all that petty, IMO -- but because it means Dean is prone to taking potentially suicidally risky moves on Sam's behalf, and Sam actually does love his brother.

I anticipate the objection to this is going to be "well, Sam, have you met Dean? He's always been this way." But as people across the opinion spectrum have observed, Sam and Dean are both a lot older than they were. Sam may have been willing to be the junior partner at age 23; he's not at age 35. In addition, as I said earlier (can't remember if it was here or in another thread), I don't actually think Dean has consistently been acting so overtly to minimize Sam's risks, and at the end of last season, Dean telling Sam to be the leader of the BMOL raid was presented as a big deal. Sure, if Sam is dead or in more-than-usually imminent danger of death, Dean is pretty much always going to do anything to save him (not that Sam hasn't also taken pretty extreme steps to save Dean), but that's different from trying to shield him from the ordinary risks of their job, which is closer to what Sam seems to think is going on here - and Dean didn't deny it. I think Dean has reverted back to his most acute "save Sammy" mode because of the experience of losing Cas and Mary and continuing guilt over not being able to save Mary from the AU yet. So this isn't wildly inconsistent on Sam's part; it is a response to altered behavior by Dean.

[Reganne]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That has nothing to do with what I was saying, but never mind.  :)  

Okay.  Maybe I misunderstood.  Sorry about that.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[Reganne]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

To sum up what I think we're all saying in these last few posts: 

Sam's problem if that he isn't willing to be in a partnership where his ostensible partner is acting in large measure with the goal of minimizing Sam's risk. Sam is free, of course, to take his own stupid risks, but he can't actually prevent Dean from acting with the goal of taking Sam out of the line of fire unless he discusses it with Dean and Dean agrees. The fact that Sam could theoretically have jumped into the rift or run after Loki wouldn't have altered the essential problem that Dean's goal is to put Sam first. Which isn't necessarily a poor reflection on Dean, but it understandably isn't something that Sam is willing to live with, not only because of petty ego - although wanting to be treated as an equal isn't actually all that petty, IMO -- but because it means Dean is prone to taking potentially suicidally risky moves on Sam's behalf, and Sam actually does love his brother.

I anticipate the objection to this is going to be "well, Sam, have you met Dean? He's always been this way." But as people across the opinion spectrum have observed, Sam and Dean are both a lot older than they were. Sam may have been willing to be the junior partner at age 23; he's not at age 35. In addition, as I said earlier (can't remember if it was here or in another thread), I don't actually think Dean has consistently been acting so overtly to minimize Sam's risks, and at the end of last season, Dean telling Sam to be the leader of the BMOL raid was presented as a big deal. Sure, if Sam is dead or in more-than-usually imminent danger of death, Dean is pretty much always going to do anything to save him (not that Sam hasn't also taken pretty extreme steps to save Dean), but that's different from trying to shield him from the ordinary risks of their job, which is closer to what Sam seems to think is going on here - and Dean didn't deny it. I think Dean has reverted back to his most acute "save Sammy" mode because of the experience of losing Cas and Mary and continuing guilt over not being able to save Mary from the AU yet. So this isn't wildly inconsistent on Sam's part; it is a response to altered behavior by Dean.

Yes.  This is essentially what I was trying to say.  It's not about Sam making Dean stand up for him.  Its that Sam needs Dean to understand where he coming from if they are to work together.

 

And I think you're right about Dean's current need to protect Sam.  It does stem from all of the loses he has struggled with lately.  I think that has a lot to do with Dean reverting back a little bit.  I don't blame him one bit, but that doesn't mean I don't see Sam's POV as well.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't...say that...like at all.

Despite this episode pretending that Sam has never been driven by vengeance, see s1 and s4 and it is in his wheelhouse, I'm not saying that he's doing it on purpose.

If seeing Lucifer's True Face is as awful as Rowena related and that has been Sam's ongoing experience which we didn't really know about, then perhaps it's affecting him much more profoundly than is being shown.  So then Sam's survival lizard brain (this is not an insult) the deep unconscious/subconscious part of his mind could be reasoning that if he kills Lucifer, he'll stop being tormented by his true face.  And that basic need to stop his own suffering might be driving him in a way he doesn't even understand himself. I'm saying he may not even understand that's what he's doing.

For me, it would be a lot better for Sam to be acting in a manner that he's not entirely aware of here rather than believing he still thinks Dean is trying to marginalize him. IF I'm incorrect in my theory,  then Sam has more issues with Dean he has to work on himself. 

I also wonder if Dean is acting out of his own lizard brain about Mary and Sam so he's drafting ideas in his head that he does in the spur of the moment.  I said before that Dean could have waited for Cas at least, but he didn't. And that is still NOT putting Sam at the kids' table even if Sam perceives it that way. 

Well... for the viewer it is a sudden WTF now Sam?!!!

However PTSD is a thing that can be triggered at any time and is not something rhat can be controlled and seeing Rowena's real fear and Gabriel's most certainly can trigger it...

As viewers knowing there are only 3 episodes left wirh so many dangling plots... WTF Sam 

[Castiels Cat]

51 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

To sum up what I think we're all saying in these last few posts: 

Sam's problem if that he isn't willing to be in a partnership where his ostensible partner is acting in large measure with the goal of minimizing Sam's risk. Sam is free, of course, to take his own stupid risks, but he can't actually prevent Dean from acting with the goal of taking Sam out of the line of fire unless he discusses it with Dean and Dean agrees. The fact that Sam could theoretically have jumped into the rift or run after Loki wouldn't have altered the essential problem that Dean's goal is to put Sam first. Which isn't necessarily a poor reflection on Dean, but it understandably isn't something that Sam is willing to live with, not only because of petty ego - although wanting to be treated as an equal isn't actually all that petty, IMO -- but because it means Dean is prone to taking potentially suicidally risky moves on Sam's behalf, and Sam actually does love his brother.

I anticipate the objection to this is going to be "well, Sam, have you met Dean? He's always been this way." But as people across the opinion spectrum have observed, Sam and Dean are both a lot older than they were. Sam may have been willing to be the junior partner at age 23; he's not at age 35. In addition, as I said earlier (can't remember if it was here or in another thread), I don't actually think Dean has consistently been acting so overtly to minimize Sam's risks, and at the end of last season, Dean telling Sam to be the leader of the BMOL raid was presented as a big deal. Sure, if Sam is dead or in more-than-usually imminent danger of death, Dean is pretty much always going to do anything to save him (not that Sam hasn't also taken pretty extreme steps to save Dean), but that's different from trying to shield him from the ordinary risks of their job, which is closer to what Sam seems to think is going on here - and Dean didn't deny it. I think Dean has reverted back to his most acute "save Sammy" mode because of the experience of losing Cas and Mary and continuing guilt over not being able to save Mary from the AU yet. So this isn't wildly inconsistent on Sam's part; it is a response to altered behavior by Dean.

I agree. Your last sentence in particular is spot on.  Dean is at the end of his rope and in self sacrifice to save others suicide mission mode.

Sam well knows this.  I was trying to remember the other times Sam has voiced concern in text about this tendency of Dean's on another thread.

As far as I recall...  the Hellhound Trials episode was the first.  Then Love Hurts.  Then Advanced Thanotology which should have scared the bejesus out of Sam.  Then this week. 

And Dean has been the one racing off or sending Dam back to the bunker several times this season.  Usually they do not physically separate by great distances.  Usually Dean just doesn't continually go on suicide runs.  And Sam is not the only one that has had the talk with him.  Billie did too.

Dean is suicidal.  He is broken inside and he is tired of going on.  Sam knows Dean wrll enough to be scared.  I saw that speech as Sam being really scared.

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

That was my favorite line of the night.  

We agree on something lol!!!

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On rewatch, I wonder if Dabb lost a bet, or Rich has something on him, because that was one self-indulgent piece of crap as far as direction goes. Wow.

He believes he is Quentin Tarantino...

Or worse he believes he is an even better director like Roberto Rodriguez.

Tarantino is all popping dialogue and he has a flare cinematic appropriation but Rodriguez has a visual gift for modern grindhouse tableau imo.

This was terrible... except for Jensen. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Res]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He believes he is Quentin Tarantino.

He's very, VERY wrong.

[Castiels Cat]

Just now, Res said:

He's very, VERY wrong.

It was so very derivative and so very very boring and so very very very meh.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:09 PM, Bergamot said:

Yes, I know what you mean. There is definitely a tie-in here back to "Advanced Thanatology" -- Dean telling Billie that he "doesn't matter", that he is just dragging Sam down; Billie accusing Dean of wanting to die, and Dean not denying it. When they got Cas back, this darkness inside of Dean seemed to recede, but maybe he was just repressing it. It would have helped if there had been more signs along the way that this death wish was still hidden inside of him -- it would have been nice if the writers had taken more care with the character arcs for once -- but I guess I can believe it.

I could be wrong, probably I am, but I thought that perhaps Sam had the wrong end of the stick in their conversation at the end, when he questioned whether Dean's reckless, death-defying actions were caused by a need to protect Sam. "So that's what you think you're doing here?" he says to Dean, and is insulted by the thought that Dean is putting him at the "kid's table". But Dean seemed evasive to me in that scene, and I was wondering if maybe he was using what Sam said to him to cover the fact that it was not just about that. Maybe it's because I don't see any sudden special danger to Sam in particular that would trigger Dean, and also because I thought it was jarring the way he openly and flatly stated "I don't care what happens to me" -- but I thought this was about more than Sam for once. I thought maybe it is about Dean wanting to die.

In which case it probably wasn't a good idea for Sam to respond with, "If we die, we'll do that together too". That is almost like throwing down a challenge to Dean, although Sam didn't intend it that way, and I found the expression on Dean's face after Sam left the room to be pretty interesting.

Hmm.  I guess I assumed that was still under the surface because of Jensen's acting and the fact that Mary is still lost and they did a great job of establishing Dean's need to save her and his outsized grief at the beginning of the season. 

These sorts if feelings do not go away overnight with burgers, beer and hentai.  We have seen Dean plaster on his smile and be on edge, obsess about hunting, gorge on food, magically build a man cave overnight it seems.  And he has been more reckless all season in my opinion.  

He stayed on in the western episode and sent everyone else home.  He went after the Wraith alone twice and would have died without Patience.   He went after the Thing alone.  The rift. Loki.  I may be forgetting some instances because I have not been rewatching.

And he went after a red haired witch even though he was specifically warned by death that Rowena was a potential death and more or less told Sam was safe with her.  

Dean buries his feelings and sublimates with eating, hunting, porn and nesting....until the breakdown.   Not sleeping too.... we see Sam sleeping and manic Dean putting post it notes on him.  Seems silly but....

Remember all of the eating that went on right before he slaughtered the pedophile rapists when he had the MoC.

I still see that he is on edge... And common sense says that someone in that state cannot just wake up the next day and be fine.  We have seen Dean practice his smile in the mirror  to cover up pain.

I think we all know that the breakdown is coming and that will lead to one of his suicide runs to save family and get a BIG win...

I think this means Dean!Michael...  

Are these writers perfect... no....

But they have done a pretty good job with Dean in terms of setting up his psychology, tying it into his tragic flaw, his end game suicide run save family/save the world maneuver.

His current hopelessness and the fact that he is just done is a bit scary.  I don't think we have ever seen him like this and it will color the choice he makes.

13:23 cannot come soon enough.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Because the writers allowed them to have two vials of grace, one to open the rift and one to save Gabriel.  It's not a plot against Dean by Sam, it's just more stupid writing.  Cas was there when Sam gave the grace to Gabriel, so if it were something they could save part of, then Cas is equally to blame.  And since I don't think either one of them were plotting against Dean, I go back to stupid writing for plot purposes.

It is Gabriel's grace. Personally I would have been surprised if Cas did not object to Sam withholding any of it.  Gabriel deserves all of his own grace. It should be his to give or keep.

[Res]

On 4/27/2018 at 1:15 PM, ILoveReading said:

Im going to have to rewatch Advanced Thanotology when I get home later to see if there are any clues I may have missed the first time around

Is there any way to do this online as all my DVR recordings from the first half of the season got erased due to a pipe burst during the freeze flooding my house?

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

We agree on something lol!!!

Yes I think I am going to be using this gif a lot in the next 3 episodes...

 

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

This was terrible... except for Jensen. 

This perfectly sums up my takeaway from this episode. Too much Gabriel, don't really care about Mary and Jack, Sam *sigh, eyeroll* but Dean kept me engaged throughout the rest of the dreck. 

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Yes I think I am going to be using this gif a lot in the next 3 episodes...

 

Yes! May I use this also? :)

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

that was why the "I don't matter" part was worrisome, but also why it was put in there, IMO-because it may be that they are finally and at long last going to deal with the deep depression that we saw in Dean in Advanced Thanatology

Yes, that is the thought I had as well, especially with the connection to what happened in "Advanced Thanatology".  At the end of this last episode, it didn't seem to me that Dean's focus, as he was sitting there drinking alone, was on Sam and how he must always protect him. His thoughts were on something else. I think Sam allowed himself to be diverted by Dean saying "I'm not going to apologize for protecting you", when in fact the really important and dangerous thing Dean said was "I don't care what happens to me."

It just seems as if Dean was going to be triggered by losing Cas and his mother at the end of last season into going into some kind of "acute save Sammy mode" he would have done so back then -- not now, months after Cas has  already been returned and they know their mother is alive and still rescuable -- but that didn't seem to happen. And the only specific  danger Dean seems to be protecting Sam from in the last couple episodes is being around Dean when he is risking his life, sometimes quite recklessly.

Not that he doesn't always have a good reason for risking his life, at least ostensibly. In "Advanced Thanatology", he was determined to free the ghosts in the house, especially the young boy Shawn, and help them to move on -- and in fact, this is the one thing he asked of Billie in return for the information she wanted; significantly, it was not to allow him to return to the land of the living, or to protect Sam. He went through the Rift because he wants to rescue Mary and Jack, and once through the Rift he was willing to risk himself to rescue AU Charlie. He is still trying to save and protect people, as he always has; it's just the way he is going about it that is raising questions.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Bergamot

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 I think Sam allowed himself to be diverted by Dean saying "I'm not going to apologize for protecting you", when in fact the really important and dangerous thing Dean said was "I don't care what happens to me."

I really, really wish that this would have been addressed. As a Dean girl it's very upsetting to see him written so often as so full of self loathing and depression.

Edited April 29, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Res]

15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Yes I think I am going to be using this gif a lot in the next 3 episodes...

 

I want to use it, too! PLEASE!!

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Yes I think I am going to be using this gif a lot in the next 3 episodes...

 

Jensen/Dean was the only thing in tbis episode worth watching.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I really, really wish that this would have been addressed. As a Dean girl it's very upsetting to see him written so often as so full of self loathing and depression.

I do think Dean's current mindset is pretty scary given what we know his m.o.to be and given that Death acknowledged that something in him has fundamentally changed. 

I am stunned some people find this out of nowhere  This is a guy with such low self worth, who blames himself for every loss, and who has repeatedly just raced to do a suicide run to do a hail Mary save over the course of the show.  Losses weigh him down especially close personal losses.

The beginning of the season just handled Dean's grief so beautifully.  And of course he immediately tries to sublimate it into killing Jack, just like the loss of Cas in season 7 was subjugated into fixing Baby.  

The Advanced Thanotology thing... my God to have Dean admit those things... to have Death tell him what she sees.  He is so broken, so tired, so done with it all... And the fact that he carries those syringes to kill himself  just in case... he is not a healthy guy...

This is the worst he has ever been.  And yeah... his Mom is the biggest trigger.  There are so many emotions tied up with the loss of a parent, especially one you lost at 4 along with your perfect life, and then you get her back but she acts like Sam running away and you never seem to do or say the right thing and then she disappears in a rift with Lucifer just like Sam did and you have to relive all of that again and there is another Apocalypse...  

So yeah ... This is Dean at his worst, living his worst nightmare, at his most despondent and depressed, in despair and probably about to do rhe most extreme, reckless and suicidal move we have ever seen.

[mertensia]

Dear gods. What a hideously ugly suit.

 

I have no problems with the way they are depicting Dean's slide into what we saw here. It's that rock bottom nakedness that causes heroes to do things like say "Ivan, did you see the sunrise?" and then raise a gun*.  It's uncomfortable and unsettling and it should be.

 

* Magnum, P.I. reference. Biggest damn wham episode ever.

[AwesomO4000]

I didn't watch that show much, @mertensia, so I didn't see this episode - though it sounds intriguing - but it sounds a lot like a scene from The Walking Dead... "Just look at the flowers, Lizzie. Just look at the flowers." (Now granted, Lizzie was too dangerous and psychologically damaged to live, but still, she was still a child, so the wham was disturbing.)

I doubt that they'll take Dean that dark if he does go dark.

[mertensia]

You really should. The first season was them getting it right, so it's uneven and does not have the best episodes, so don't give up. 

[cavelupum]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hope nobody minds if I just jump right in with my thoughts on the most recent episode in lieu of a formal introduction. :)

 

I liked Gabriel well enough when he was the Trickster and one of his rare appearances generally heralded an entertaining one-off, but for me, this was way, way too much. Given the episode’s focus on Gabriel, the lookalike Loki, and Speight’s role as director, “Unfinished Business” came across more as a self-serving pet project than a necessary story to tell at this point in the game. If TPTB truly felt the urge to spend the majority of an episode exploring a side character’s backstory and quest for vengeance, I wish they’d had the foresight not to do so in the overcrowded final quarter of the season — I might have been more okay with this one if its timing didn’t make it seem as though it’s just taking up space that could have been used to flesh out more pertinent storylines instead.

 

As someone who really disliked the way 13.17 ended, Sam calling Dean out for sidelining him was cathartic for me, even if I still wish he had stood up for himself more in the moment. Dean feels like he’s regressing, the character growth he displayed in “Who We Are” either forgotten or abandoned by the writers, and the sudden resurgence of the overprotective-big-brother shtick rang hollow to me.

 

Though potentially too optimistic on my part, I’m hoping that the show was trying in this episode to foreshadow Sam finally putting Lucifer down for good, which would right a major wrong that’s been making me grumpy ever since Castiel said yes to the Devil in the first place. Fingers crossed.

[MysteryGuest]

37 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Though potentially too optimistic on my part, I’m hoping that the show was trying in this episode to foreshadow Sam finally putting Lucifer down for good, which would right a major wrong that’s been making me grumpy ever since Castiel said yes to the Devil in the first place. Fingers crossed.

Welcome, Cavelupum!  I'd be all for Sam finally getting the best of Lucifer.  He's more than overstayed his welcome and Sam deserves the right to end him.  Maybe he and Rowena both can be the ones to take him out.  I'd settle for anything that moves this show beyond the Lucifer storyline.  

I'm not happy that the writers have chosen to show Dean again as having no interest in surviving.  It was one thing at the beginning of the season, right after they'd lost everyone, but it doesn't ring true for me right now.  And when Jensen said "Dean steps up in a big way", I was hopeful that it meant he'd get to do something actually heroic, as opposed to just making some reckless decision a la the Mark of Cain, because he doesn't think his life is worth anything.  It really hasn't been fun to watch either brother be so depressed this season.  I understand that having to save the world...again, would certainly drag anyone down, but it's hard to watch.  They deserved a bit of a break this season from all of the world-ending crap, and so did we.  I'd like to think it will be resolved this season, but I'm afraid this storyline is going to continue into next year, as well.

[ILoveReading]

10 hours ago, Res said:

Is there any way to do this online as all my DVR recordings from the first half of the season got erased due to a pipe burst during the freeze flooding my house?

It might be on the CW website if your American. 

Sorry to hear about your house.

[Res]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It might be on the CW website if your American. 

Sorry to hear about your house.

Thanks. It's fixed now but having that happen when your daughter is 8 1/2 months pregnant and her room was unlivable was very stressful. Luckily my 1st grandchild patiently waited until we were done to be born. LOL!

I checked the CW and their episodes don't go that far back, unfortunately. So far, I've only seen them on amazon for a price that I'm not really willing to pay yet.

[belbar]

8 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I do think Dean's current mindset is pretty scary given what we know his m.o.to be and given that Death acknowledged that something in him has fundamentally changed. 

I am stunned some people find this out of nowhere  This is a guy with such low self worth, who blames himself for every loss, and who has repeatedly just raced to do a suicide run to do a hail Mary save over the course of the show.  Losses weigh him down especially close personal losses.

The beginning of the season just handled Dean's grief so beautifully.  And of course he immediately tries to sublimate it into killing Jack, just like the loss of Cas in season 7 was subjugated into fixing Baby.  

The Advanced Thanotology thing... my God to have Dean admit those things... to have Death tell him what she sees.  He is so broken, so tired, so done with it all... And the fact that he carries those syringes to kill himself  just in case... he is not a healthy guy...

This is the worst he has ever been.  And yeah... his Mom is the biggest trigger.  There are so many emotions tied up with the loss of a parent, especially one you lost at 4 along with your perfect life, and then you get her back but she acts like Sam running away and you never seem to do or say the right thing and then she disappears in a rift with Lucifer just like Sam did and you have to relive all of that again and there is another Apocalypse...  

So yeah ... This is Dean at his worst, living his worst nightmare, at his most despondent and depressed, in despair and probably about to do rhe most extreme, reckless and suicidal move we have ever seen.

Totally agree wih your analysis of Dean at the current situation. It's the result of a very long process, not something out of the blue or a regression of any kind. Most of the crises they've been fighting for the last thirteen years have had a "fake resolution", many of them felt more like a flight or scape forward. It seems like an endless loop (sure, if they were solved for good it'd mean the end of the show) which would be a very hard and pressing burden on anyone. And that's specially true about their personnal issues.

5 minutes ago, Res said:

Thanks. It's fixed now but having that happen when your daughter is 8 1/2 months pregnant and her room was unlivable was very stressful. Luckily my 1st grandchild patiently waited until we were done to be born. LOL!

I checked the CW and their episodes don't go that far back, unfortunately. So far, I've only seen them on amazon for a price that I'm not really willing to pay yet.

Glad to know that everything is already fixed, but more important congrats on your first grandchild.

[Res]

5 minutes ago, belbar said:

Totally agree wih your analysis of Dean at the current situation. It's the result of a very long process, not something out of the blue or a regression of any kind. Most of the crises they've been fighting for the last thirteen years have had a "fake resolution", many of them felt more like a flight or scape forward. It seems like an endless loop (sure, if they were solved for good it'd mean the end of the show) which would be a very hard and pressing burden on anyone. And that's specially true about their personnal issues.

Glad to know that everything is already fixed, but more important congrats on your first grandchild.

You are right and it reminds me of Dean in season 7 where he commented that if the world was that desperate to end (3 apocalypses in 3 years), that maybe they should let it already. He might be to that point again. If you think about it, each death he doesn't prevent takes a total on him, regardless of the later resurrection, because you never know IF they are coming back and he takes his failure to prevent the death to heart regardless. It's got to be wearing on him something fierce by now. He might be to the point, understandably, that he just CANNOT watch another loved one/AU replica loved one die. 

Thank you! He's a real cutie!