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S13.E20: Unfinished Business


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“Unfinished Business” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

DIRECTED BY AND GUEST STARRING RICHARD SPEIGHT, JR – Gabriel (guest star Richard Speight, Jr.) is back and drags Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) into his plot for revenge on the demigods who sold him to Asmodeus. Meanwhile, Jack’s (Alexander Calvert) inflating confidence leads to reckless decisions that could put others in harm’s way. Richard Speight, Jr. directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1320). Original airdate 4/26/2018.

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WTF.  Dean was tortured in hell for 40 years by Alastair who was Hell's master torturer... don't whine to him about your 7 years of torture by leghorn foghorn.
Meh.  Weak  Rodriguez rip-off (el Mariachi/Desperado/OuTiM) with a  clasic Tarantino Mexican stand-off.

Poor innocent Jack.

Good observations from Sam and nice speech but he just laid out Dean's m.o. and judging from Dean's  face and Dean's psyche, emotions, subtext, plot anvils, my gut, my Italian witch blood....
Nothing is changing.
Odds 100%  we are getting Dean!Michael 

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This felt like I was watching Sacrifice all over again. 

Seriously, Sam the rift was open.  If you wanted to go bad enough you could have.  Stop blaming Dean for treating you like a child when you make your own decisions.

I guess its Dean's turn to be sad again since he's back on the hard stuff. 

I did like that Dean was right about getting revenge not changing anything as Gabe didn't seem all that jazzed.

Edited by ILoveReading
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I can see both sides to the Sam vs Dean stuff when it comes to the archangel stuff, and I'm glad Sam got to hear how Dean was feeling, but also Dean got to hear about Sam still wanting to go through with it. They really have gone through stuff and as much as I feel like the series, at times, likes to reset the brothers to the point where their actions don't always match up to the 13+ years experience they have, sometimes they do get some of the emotional beats right, as seen at the end of this episode. That's why I like both brothers, flaws and all. 

As for the rest of the episode, I did like it. I enjoy Gabriel, and I enjoy that the show brought up Gabriel's complete lack of a spine. He really should have died back in season 5, but since they're kind of retconning that this season just to bring back Gabriel, then hopefully, if he does get killed by AU Michael or Lucifer again, it sticks. 

Though, yeah, I really needed Dean or even Sam to point out that they've been tortured for far longer and they managed to work through it without whining.

I kind of really enjoyed Richard's version of the real Loki.

Jack's getting cocky. I can't help but like Jack a lot. He still is fairly young so he doesn't understand life or experiences that others have. I don't mind Mary trying to point that out. I feel bad that AU Kevin had to cast that spell, but it did take Jack down a notch. I feel bad for the kid. He's still learning and has the shadow of his bio father looming over him, as well as immense power that he wants to use for good.

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I spent most of my time yelling at Sam and Mary to STFU.

Sam: You had opportunities before Dean went through the Rift to put your foot down and you could have actually tackled him if you REALLY didn't want him to go without you. But now, suddenly, because Gabriel is there you suddenly find your voice again. Just to lecture Dean that you think he's putting you at the kids table?  STFU, Sam.

Mary: You big hypocrite. You don't get to lecture Kevin about Heaven when YOU rejected your boys for your Memorex heaven. And I really didn't think they could make me like Mary less, but TA DA! They just did with Mary's "I can't lose another boy".  YOU REJECTED YOUR BOYS! STFU, MARY.

Gabriel. Go TF away: Way too much Gabriel. I mean they could have just named this episode GabrielNatural and I could have avoided it all together.

Dean is on a suicide mission and I don't know why.  There is a trajectory here, but they are not fleshing it out particularly well. But I guess Dean's Prime Directive will never die until Dean does.  :(.

And I was totally wrong that Sam would give Dean the lecture on vengeance. Ah well. I can't win em all.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Though, yeah, I really needed Dean or even Sam to point out that they've been tortured for far longer and they managed to work through it without whining.

Yes, I really needed them to tell him to suck it up, since they'd both dealt with worse.  Not sure what's going on with Sam, but based on those few scenes, he's planning some payback for Lucifer.  I really wish they'd have let that storyline die a natural death.  It makes no sense after the past few seasons of interacting with Lucifer.  He stood up to him in the cage, and he provided family counseling to him when Chuck came back.  Now all of a sudden, he's tortured daily with memories of Lucifer?  Oye, these writers!

The episode felt like a bit of a waste to me.  They must be planning to string the current storyline out through next season, because there are an awful lot of loose ends to wrap up in just three episodes.  And at least a quarter of this episode was spent "explaining" just how Gabriel came to still be alive.  Hopefully, his character will actually serve some purpose in the end.  

Our boys do not seem to be on the same page at this point in time.  Dean is in full sacrificial mode, and I'm not sure what's up with Sam.  I thought we'd gotten past some of this stuff by now.  

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Meh.

 

As expected, the super short Jack and Mary scenes didn't do anything for me, especially when they just throw the audience in there without setting up the atmosphere as if we'd been following them every episode. No. That was only the second time in 10 episodes we got to see them, so either set it up properly or don't bother. The writers scrambling to put the pieces in place at the last goddman second when they've had the entire second half of season 13 to take care of it pisses me off. You can pretend all you want that Jack and Mary now share a mother/son bond, without seeing it get formed naturally I'm not going to care.
The worst thing is, Michael's plan to let Kevin blow everybody up including himself was horrible enough that it could have had a huge impact if they had cared about us seeing what was happening in the AU regularly. The problem is, I still don't care about Michael, Kevin and all the AU fighters. I used to care about Mary and Jack but the writers kept them out of the story for ages. What a waste.

Also Jack letting Kevin speak and blow himself up when he could have instantly knocked him out was dumb.

 

The Gabriel stuff felt like it was mostly about the writer of the week having fun with that cheap Kill Bill vibe, and with Gabriel himself. Like many times this season it felt forced and the abduction/Loki story made very little sense. Having a Gabriel doppleganger felt awfully fanfiction-y.

Whatever, Gabriel's on the path to redemption and that's what matters.

I did like the final Sam/Dean conversation, however Dean's suicidal tendencies """"storyline"""" isn't well constructed at all (just like Sam suddenly wanting revenge against Lucifer) and feels like a VERY obvious setup for the season finale. I still liked how the conversation was written though.

 

Three more episodes to go and maybe we can put this crap behind us and focus on Sam & Dean next season.

Edited by BoxManLocke
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The alternate universe version of Kevin Tran has only had a few brief scenes this season, and the character maybe was not that important in terms of the overall story, but I am sorry that he is gone. I thought that the scene where, acting as a "suicide bomber", he kills himself, was very emotionally powerful to watch. It made me wish that I had been able to see more of what led AU Kevin to that moment (and as a side note, made Michael seem a little bit scary to me for the first time, if he could do that to someone.) I was filled with pity and horror as I watched, and I wish they could have somehow saved AU Kevin. VERY well done, Osric Chau!

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36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Gabriel complaining about being tortured was lost on me when he tortured Dean physically and Sam mentally for months.

SERIOUSLY. He's lucky that Sam and Dean aren't more petty. They should have pointed that out to him. Sometimes I hate this show. LOL

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Oh thank GOD! I was worried we were going to go a whole season without the annual "Big brother Dean being overprotective of his little brother Sammy" story arc. Had me scared there for a moment! WHEW!

Also, when Dean used Sam's death & going to hell as justification for sidelining him, Sam really should have pointed out that the only reason that happened was because he said "yes" to Lucifer. Which he doesn't plan on doing again.

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3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This felt like I was watching Sacrifice all over again. 

Seriously, Sam the rift was open.  If you wanted to go bad enough you could have.  Stop blaming Dean for treating you like a child when you make your own decisions.

I guess its Dean's turn to be sad again since he's back on the hard stuff. 

I did like that Dean was right about getting revenge not changing anything as Gabe didn't seem all that jazzed.

 

Sam is scared for Dean... and he should be.  

Sam needs to take a ticket and get in line in regards to Lucifer though.

I already suffered through the man who knew too much and season 7.  Please no more of Sam's hellpain.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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I saw an interesting theory on Twitter that maybe Dean has knowledge of how Sam dies from his side trip to Death's Library and this is why he's being so adamantly over protective right now.

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6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam is scared for Dean... and he should be.  

Sam seemed more annoyed here than scared at the annual, "lets protect Sammy plot."

Why is it Sam can only find his voice when its time to lecture Dean about something? No one is stopping Sam from sitting at the big boy table except Sam.  He could have spoken up and told Dean, he wasn't letting him go alone or refused to go along with the plan.

Edited by ILoveReading
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7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Did anyone else catch Kevin's quote, "Even when I lose, I win."

Low blow show given how Mark S. was so upset this line was cut. 

Good catch.  Crowley better be alive.... please please please.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I spent most of my time yelling at Sam and Mary to STFU.

Sam: You had opportunities before Dean went through the Rift to put your foot down and you could have actually tackled him if you REALLY didn't want him to go without you. But now, suddenly, because Gabriel is there you suddenly find your voice again. Just to lecture Dean that you think he's putting you at the kids table?  STFU, Sam.

Mary: You big hypocrite. You don't get to lecture Kevin about Heaven when YOU rejected your boys for your Memorex heaven. And I really didn't think they could make me like Mary less, but TA DA! They just did with Mary's "I can't lose another boy".  YOU REJECTED YOUR BOYS! STFU, MARY.

Gabriel. Go TF away: Way too much Gabriel. I mean they could have just named this episode GabrielNatural and I could have avoided it all together.

Dean is on a suicide mission and I don't know why.  There is a trajectory here, but they are not fleshing it out particularly well. But I guess Dean's Prime Directive will never die until Dean does.  :(.

And I was totally wrong that Sam would give Dean the lecture on vengeance. Ah well. I can't win em all.

Technically Mary did not reject her boys,for her Memorex heaven. She was Brutally programmed by Lady Torture Spice.

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7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Technically Mary did not reject her boys,for her Memorex heaven.

Uh. No. She rejected them in 12.3

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Did anyone else catch Kevin's quote, "Even when I lose, I win."

Low blow show given how Mark S. was so upset this line was cut. 

Wow. I missed that part. Holy shit. That's dirty shit right there.

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I spent most of my time yelling at Sam and Mary to STFU.

Sam: You had opportunities before Dean went through the Rift to put your foot down and you could have actually tackled him if you REALLY didn't want him to go without you. But now, suddenly, because Gabriel is there you suddenly find your voice again. Just to lecture Dean that you think he's putting you at the kids table?  STFU, Sam.

Mary: You big hypocrite. You don't get to lecture Kevin about Heaven when YOU rejected your boys for your Memorex heaven. And I really didn't think they could make me like Mary less, but TA DA! They just did with Mary's "I can't lose another boy".  YOU REJECTED YOUR BOYS! STFU, MARY.

Gabriel. Go TF away: Way too much Gabriel. I mean they could have just named this episode GabrielNatural and I could have avoided it all together.

Dean is on a suicide mission and I don't know why.  There is a trajectory here, but they are not fleshing it out particularly well. But I guess Dean's Prime Directive will never die until Dean does.  :(.

And I was totally wrong that Sam would give Dean the lecture on vengeance. Ah well. I can't win em all.

Dean's trajectory is crystal clear IMO and I have  spelled it out previously....

Currently he is broken.  We saw that at the beginning of the season. This has not changed even if he seems fine.  He hides it with manic behavior like porn watching, eating, hunting or creating man caves overnight... but it is there. He had a,complete breakdiwn culminating in suicide for goodness sakes...  hamburgers and hentai do not cure that.

How many episodes has he rushed off alone into danger?  I have lost count.

Dean's m.o.in times of depression and despair is the end game suicide run for the big win to save family and/ or take out the big bad.  It is his tragic flaw.  He believes the Best tbing he can do is die and do a bit of good before he goes.  We have seen him do it again and again.  It is often triggered by the thought of losing Sam (AT), or the loss or Sam ((s2f) or even when he thinks Sam is so mad at him he will never forgive him (MoC).  We have seen this so many times.  

Its origins lie in his loss of Mary at 4 when his,family was ripped apart so having Mary returned to him but not really getting his Mommy back has left him an emotional mess. I saw him getting more anxious all last season. I saw the writers give Mary the familar San tropes as Dean shifted his worry about protexting Sam to protecting her.  I saw the Sam/Mary parallels loud and clear so it was absolute perfection when Mary pushed Lucifer through the rift in a parallel to Sam pushing Lucifer into the Cage... and of course the camera focused on Dean's anguish and despair... and of course the beginning of the season focused on Dean's anguish and despair and has continued to show Dean slowly loosing it.

We have had a version of this conversation before when I first came her and I laid out my Dean!Michael theory. I laid this all out. I said Dean was looklsing control and manic about saving Mary.  He is. It is playing out more or less how I thought as far as his mindset is.  They have done a great job laying the groundwork.

Dean is a well developed character and they have thought this out.

I know you do not see it.  Maybe when you do a rewatch with this in mind you will see it.

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Uh. No. She rejected them in 12.3

Wow. I missed that part. Holy shit. That's dirty shit right there.

Nope.  She needed to get her head together. Very different thing.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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Just now, Castiels Cat said:

Dean's trajectory is crystal clear IMO and I have  spelled it out previously....

Yes, You've spelled it out often. I've read it. 

I've never said Dean is not a well developed character. He absolutely is. That's not the issue.

It's the SL for Dean that IMO was set up for Dean's death. What isn't well set up is his shutting out Sam on this and Sam being back and forth and Sam chewing out Dean like a petty teenager now instead of standing up when he could have. It's the back and forth of Dean being uber intense and then zen and back to uber intense.  It's really a matter of opinion here and you think it's super well laid out. I think it has seeds that can be twisted into something. So we can agree to disagree on how well set up any of this is. 

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1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Not sure what's going on with Sam, but based on those few scenes, he's planning some payback for Lucifer.

I totally agree:  that's the read I got from both his question to Gabriel about how it felt to get his revenge, and his expression. (And the nods to each other after Gabriel stabbed Loki.)

I like that Dean was not in favor of the revenge route.  At least there's some consistency here, especially after what he told Amara.

29 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Technically Mary did not reject her boys,for her Memorex heaven. She was Brutally programmed by Lady Torture Spice

I believe this is referring to her comment well before she w.as brainwashed, that just a little while ago she was with her two widdle boys and now they're these grown men and she'd really rather be back with the babies (even though she also told Dean and Sam that she isn't into being their Mommy--isn't that exactly what she'd be with a toddler and a baby?)

 

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why is it Sam can only find his voice when its time to lecture Dean about something? No one is stopping Sam from sitting at the big boy table except Sam.  He could have spoken up and told Dean, he wasn't letting him go alone or refused to go along with the plan.

Exactly.  This is the same nonsense Sam spouted in "Fallen Idols" and I was annoyed at hearing from a 26-year old back then.  He's a lot older now and it's an even a less attractive whine than it was back in season 5.  Part of growing up, Sam, is taking responsibility for your own decisions--you could have refused to stay in the bunker or to do what Dean preferred you do but you didn't.  Don't agree and then blame Dean for your choice.

Edited by Lemuria
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Oh. And Dean's encounter with Loki one on one.

Spoiler

I wonder if that is who Dean ends up becoming and it's not Michael nor Death.  I don't know why that would happen other than Dean asking for it so he can stealth move around the AU.

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I'll spend more time after a quick rewatch

Kudos for bringing up Odin was killed at Elysian Fields
Extra double bonus points for Dean taking Gabriel to task about abandoning their butts when they could have used his help
Gabriel is entertaining but I don't trust him to help.  I expect him to run away when he wants to.  I didn't feel Gabriel learned anything from killing those guys.  Now maybe he'll sit with it for a while, but right now, he's being a stubborn shit.
Good on Sam & Dean trying to talk Gabriel out of the revenge plot.  Extra bonus points for Dean's "this is so stupid" attitude.  
Well done Sammy on telling Dean he knows Dean is pulling stunts to protect his little brother.  Not a damn thing is going to change, but at least Dean knows Sam is on to him.  
I liked the kill list.

I wish they hadn't killed Kevin. 

More after a rewatch.  I need to watch the details again.

Edited by SueB
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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Did anyone else catch Kevin's quote, "Even when I lose, I win."

Low blow show given how Mark S. was so upset this line was cut. 

I thought the line they used was the opposite:  "Even if you win, you lose."  I remember doing a double take about Crowley's line, then thinking, no, that's different.  (I could be wrong...)  

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1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Not sure what's going on with Sam, but based on those few scenes, he's planning some payback for Lucifer.  I really wish they'd have let that storyline die a natural death.  It makes no sense after the past few seasons of interacting with Lucifer.  He stood up to him in the cage, and he provided family counseling to him when Chuck came back.  Now all of a sudden, he's tortured daily with memories of Lucifer?  Oye, these writers!

Ohhh, okay then! I feel dumb admitting this, but I didn't even realize that's where they were going with Sam. That's how far out in left field it is, in my opinion, that his big motivation for the season now appears to be revenge against Lucifer. I was puzzled during the episode by what seemed to me to be Sam's creepily intense interest in vicariously participating in Gabriel's revenge, and was wondering if it was maybe some kind of bonding exercise for the two characters, showing the new closeness of their relationship. Heh.  I'm sure you are right though.

So the writers have now decided that Sam's main focus is revenge, and Dean's is to make sure that this time he is the one who gets swallowed whole by the Apocalypse, not Sam. It is kind of hilarious to me that for neither of them, is their mother's fate being presented as their primary motivation.

Spoiler

It would be funny if, when they finally fight their way to her side, and she announces she wants to stay in the AU, they respond with "Okay, Mom, whatever", because they have more important things on their minds!

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1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Nope.  She needed to get her head together. Very different thing.

She quite specifically stated that she couldn't get her wee lads out of her headspace that she had in Heaven. So, yeah it's the same. Beyond that she stayed away for MONTHS from them. Joined the org that actively tortured Sam etc etc. She avoided her children like the plague. There really isn't anything anyone can say to me that will change my opinion on Mary. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I thought the line they used was the opposite:  "Even if you win, you lose."  I remember doing a double take about Crowley's line, then thinking, no, that's different.  (I could be wrong...)  

your right, that was how it went, I just remember being surprised to hear it because I thought it kind of insulting towards Mark S.

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Wait. Dean said that Sam died when he was Lucifer's meat suit? I'm pretty confused by that comment. I mean Lucifer was in Sam. Sam jumped into the pit and then Cas took him out like the next day. So when did Sam actually die? I'm super confused by that writing. 

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

your right, that was how it went, I just remember being surprised to hear it because I thought it kind of insulting towards Mark S.

It's close enough to that deleted line that it feels like a slap to Mark  and Crowley to me.

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2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, You've spelled it out often. I've read it. 

I've never said Dean is not a well developed character. He absolutely is. That's not the issue.

It's the SL for Dean that IMO was set up for Dean's death. What isn't well set up is his shutting out Sam on this and Sam being back and forth and Sam chewing out Dean like a petty teenager now instead of standing up when he could have. It's the back and forth of Dean being uber intense and then zen and back to uber intense.  It's really a matter of opinion here and you think it's super well laid out. I think it has seeds that can be twisted into something. So we can agree to disagree on how well set up any of this is. 

Dean's death... yeah..  that is going on too but it is clear Billie is preventing it because Dean has work to do.

And as for Dean shutting Sam out... have you meet Dean.  There are pages and pages on Sam boards written about bossy dick Dean behaving exactly this way.  He has been dfoing it all season.  He tried to do it in season 8 until he was knocked down and list his hekkhound goggles and Sam traipsed in a killed the hellhound.  Dean always tries to be the one in the line of fire 

Edited by Castiels Cat
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2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

The alternate universe version of Kevin Tran has only had a few brief scenes this season, and the character maybe was not that important in terms of the overall story, but I am sorry that he is gone. I thought that the scene where, acting as a "suicide bomber", he kills himself, was very emotionally powerful to watch. It made me wish that I had been able to see more of what led AU Kevin to that moment (and as a side note, made Michael seem a little bit scary to me for the first time, if he could do that to someone.) I was filled with pity and horror as I watched, and I wish they could have somehow saved AU Kevin. VERY well done, Osric Chau!

I thought Jensen and Osric stole this episode. I felt little for Kevin when they first found him, but his death scene was great.

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

At about 30 minutes into the episode and listening to Gabriel drone on and on about what-the-hell-ever Dean said "This is stupid".  I couldn't agree more.

My eyes rolled to the back of my head more times in this episode than in any previous episode series-long. Gabrielnatural might have been what they were going for, but Speight under-achieved again and as usual. He can't really do anything other than pseudo-comedy, IMO, and his attempts at badassery were the same kind of pseudo-comedic and left me wondering if that was truly what they were going for. Still not sure of that.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Gabriel complaining about being tortured was lost on me when he tortured Dean physically and Sam mentally for months.

And even more so, when one considers that both brothers were tortured for far longer and in equally awful manners.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

SERIOUSLY. He's lucky that Sam and Dean aren't more petty. They should have pointed that out to him. Sometimes I hate this show. LOL

Sometimes I hate it, too. But I bought TWO bottles of wine for tonight's episode. ;-)

I actually thought it was more harmless than I thought it would be(I didn't even have to finish the second bottle). I liked Dean and his reactions to everything very much. Sam is still acting like a child, IMO, and so I can understand Dean needing to feel like he needs to treat him like one. And I thought that was conveyed beautifully in the last scene. Sam definitely thinks that Gabriel is feeling better than ever after his revenge, but we all know that he's not-as does Dean, but as others have said, I hope that there will be more to Dean's storyline than just saving or protecting Sam again.

Give Dean some world saving too, writers. He deserves it.

Gabrielnatural was a bust for this fan, but I'm sure Speight loved it.

I was rooting for Michael to take Jack down a peg or two in this one. I really was. Too bad that it had to cost us another Kevin Tran and the poor soldiers with them. Still not feeling it for Jack either, but I'm sure that the writers want me to.

I wish Mary would die. I know it would be hard on the brothers, and especially Dean, but I absolutely cannot stand this hypocritical excuse of a mother and a character that these asshat writers have turned her into. Just send her back to Memorexland already.

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49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

your right, that was how it went, I just remember being surprised to hear it because I thought it kind of insulting towards Mark S.

I have to believe it means he takes his,death and he lives over their 

They could not be so awful because Mark Sheppard has his fans.

And he made all of those tees didn't he.

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Ohhh, okay then! I feel dumb admitting this, but I didn't even realize that's where they were going with Sam. That's how far out in left field it is, in my opinion, that his big motivation for the season now appears to be revenge against Lucifer. I was puzzled during the episode by what seemed to me to be Sam's creepily intense interest in vicariously participating in Gabriel's revenge, and was wondering if it was maybe some kind of bonding exercise for the two characters, showing the new closeness of their relationship. Heh.  I'm sure you are right though.

So the writers have now decided that Sam's main focus is revenge, and Dean's is to make sure that this time he is the one who gets swallowed whole by the Apocalypse, not Sam. It is kind of hilarious to me that for neither of them, is their mother's fate being presented as their primary motivation.

  Hide contents

It would be funny if, when they finally fight their way to her side, and she announces she wants to stay in the AU, they respond with "Okay, Mom, whatever", because they have more important things on their minds!

And the Rowena bonding... her death will be the last straw... tbis is just so sad.

 

Dean is motivated to save Mary.  He has to save Sam too... and Jack... and Cas... and gosh faux Charlie... 

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Oh, and Michael at least sounds like a great big bad if Kevin Tran is a decent source of intel. He certainly sounds scary to me. I hope he DOES cross over to our world.

Edited by Myrelle
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(edited)
This is Dabb's assistant.

What show is she watching? Dean has never been driven by vengeance.  When did vengeance mess Dean up? I'm not being sarcastic.

He didn't want to continue after Azazel in s1 because it would cost him his family.

He didn't want Sam going after Lilith for vengeance. They thought it was because she needed to be killed to stop Lucifer from rising.

Dick Roman? But Dick was also destroying the world.
Abaddon? or Gadreel? Not really. They were also people needed to be taken out because they were going to destroy something?

Who else has Dean had to learn a lesson about vengeance? I am legit baffled. What have I forgotten?

ETA: She is Dabb's assistant. 

Edited by catrox14
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6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
This is Dabb's assistant.

What show is she watching? Dean has never been driven by vengeance.  When did vengeance mess Dean up? I'm not being sarcastic.

He didn't want to continue after Azazel in s1 because it would cost him his family.

He didn't want Sam going after Lilith for vengeance. They thought it was because she needed to be killed to stop Lucifer from rising.

Dick Roman? But Dick was also destroying the world.
Abaddon? or Gadreel? Not really. They were also people needed to be taken out because they were going to destroy something?

Who else has Dean had to learn a lesson about vengeance? I am legit baffled. What have I forgotten?

ETA: She is Dabb's assistant. 

I thought she meant Dean has seen what revenge has done to his Dad and Sam.  But nope.

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7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought she meant Dean has seen what revenge has done to his Dad and Sam.  But nope.

Holy crap. How is that even an agree to disagree? It's canon what Dean said in s1. LOL

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46 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Dick Roman? But Dick was also destroying the world.

This is true, but that doesn't mean that Dean's need for revenge didn't sort of mess him up in that season... It also literally got him blown into purgatory, so...

Not saying that I get the tweet, because if Dean learned this in season 7, it's not really character growth now, but I do think the revenge thing messed Dean up in season 7. Even Crazy Sam saw it and was worried... and if Crazy Sam is worried about you, you've got to be pretty messed up. ; )

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I'm a little iffy on the revenge thing, both because you're right that Dean isn't someone who has ever, IMO, primarily been driven by revenge but also because in spite of that, I don't see Dean as someone who is anti-revenge per se. It isn't worth sacrificing his family for, obviously - Dean's childhood was ultimately wrecked less by Mary's death than by John's commitment to revenge -- but if someone killed Sam, Dean's not going to just walk away, either; if he could get revenge without hurting any of the remaining people he loves, he'd do it. Certainly, Dean was happy enough to take out Azazel with a final "this is for our mom."

I do think the show got it right in that they didn't present Dean as having a fundamental moral problem with revenge; rather, he thought it was a waste of time under the circumstances, and correctly suggested that it was going to feel pretty hollow anyway, especially given that there were actual, proactive things Gabriel could have been doing to help the world instead. 

While I haven't seen a sustained pattern of Dean sidelining Sam, and acknowledge that Sam could have chosen to follow Dean through the rift over his objections, I saw where he was coming from. Dean kind of blindsided him at the last minute with his plan to go through the rift with Ketch, and Gabriel's presence plus the need for a backup if Dean didn't return actually did provide a good reason that someone had to stay back. Dean just unilaterally decided that that person would be Sam, and put Sam in a position in which he was either going to have to throw a tantrum and fight Dean over who was going to go or accept it. "Kid's table" line notwithstanding, I also didn't see Sam's attitude there as petulant; he doesn't think Dean doesn't trust him or considers him incapable, but rather recognizes that Dean's increased level of protectiveness means that something is wrong. 

As a whole, I thought the scene was effective and a nice character beat for both brothers that managed to also raise the emotional stakes going into the final run of episodes.

As for the rest of the episode, I'm not a huge Gabriel fan but enjoyed the Kill-Bill vibe (which the show then made explicit); the soundtrack was also a lot of fun in those scenes. Oscric Chau did a great job with Kevin's final scene, and I did like Mary and Jack's dynamic. The one thing that bugged was the "I can't lose another boy" line, because as others have mentioned, that's not really what happened and seemed like a false comparison. 

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I had a strong feeling that Gabriel was Loki at the end there, although I zoned out for a bit during their fight and may have missed the switch. I’ll watch again. 

Mary seems to like being Jacks mentor. I think that’s what she missed with the adult Dean and Sam. 

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I agree that Osric did a great job, and it's too bad they had to kill his character off...again.  But I'm guessing most, if not all of the characters they've brought back, aren't going to be around for the long term.  

Dean is always going to feel the need to protect Sam, right or wrong.  Sam, unfortunately, is going to need to stand up for himself and insist that Dean allow him to be an equal partner.  He did that in this episode, but it needn't have come off as whiny as it did.  I'd have preferred they had Sam stand up to Dean when he insisted on going through the rift alone.  His telling Sam that "this is how it's going to be", would have been the moment for Sam to make his feelings known.  He could have reluctantly agreed that one of them needed to stay behind, but he should have clearly put Dean in his place that he doesn't get to dictate what Sam does or doesn't do.  He's never going to get Dean to stop feeling protective of him, but he needed to stand his ground.  

This has been a pretty emotional season for both brothers, and if I try to look at it objectively, I don't think their emotional rollercoaster ride is that abnormal.  They went from losing everyone, to getting Cas back and learning that Mary was alive, but being tortured.  They came to trust and care for Jack, and then lost him, too.  And every time they've gotten close to a solution, something else happens.  They've both tried to take on the cheerleader role when the other brother has been at their lowest, so it gives the impression that they seemed to be coming out of their funk.  But I don't think either one of them is really feeling any different than they did in the beginning.  I think they're both really depressed and at the end of their ropes.      

Based on how much emphasis they put on Gabriel's weakened state, I'm pretty convinced that getting our Michael out of the cage is going to be their next option.  Whether it's a decision they come to together, or whether Dean goes off on his own, is yet to be determined.  

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15 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I had a strong feeling that Gabriel was Loki at the end there, although I zoned out for a bit during their fight and may have missed the switch. I’ll watch again. 

I briefly thought that when watching the episode, but I don't know how they would have switched, with Loki giving Gabriel the "spineless" speech just before Gabriel killed him. I think now that the look was more just about Gabriel not being satisfied with enacting his revenge, just like Dean said. 

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This was a drag for me.  Why did they have to waste a whole episode getting Gabe to agree to help?  It could have been done in 15 minutes.  I'm not a big fan of Richard's.  His acting is basic at best and his directing style usually copies someone else's.  

I got a bit caught up watching the snot appearing and disappearing from Osric's nostrils that I missed what he said or why he was so agitated.  I missed Mark's catch phrase but I think they're being mean in using it.  Mark had t-shirts printed (or something).  He is involved in the Type 1 Diabetes fundraising. It was wrong.  What a snub to Mark!

I remain impressed with Alex.  He easily won those apocalypse scenes with Mother Mary.  I'm sure Samantha has her talents, but her acting style reminds me of the actress who portrays Madison in the awful Fear TWD.  The expression doesn't match the words coming out of her mouth.   

The problem here is that TPTB haven't  given us any reason or even allowed the time to become invested in anything or anyone.  We're supposed to care (I guess?) but we don't (or *I* don't).

I care about Sam and Dean - two character who continue (even after 13 years) to fascinate and capture my attention.  And it was fun to watch Dean get the best of the demi-god or whatever he was.  I'm loving badass fighting Dean.  OTOH - why are these demi-gods, monsters, and other miscellaneous gods having fist fights with humans?  In early seasons they just waved a hand and folk flew through the air.  Still, not complaining.  I love a good ol' fist fight and Jensen's got the moves.

I'm left wondering if Dean agrees to take on Michael (our world Michael) into order to be strong enough to fight AU World Michael who's apparently about to come through the rift to wipe us all out.  Maybe the 1920's garb on a 21st century street is something else?

It was a bore and a waste of episode.  We're getting down to the wire, things should be ramping up - I don't give a shit about Gabe. I honestly don't care if Mary stays in the AU.  I am kinda hoping Cinnamon Jack gets a few evil tendencies.   I think the actor is well able to give us some shivers.  

Jensen is soooooo beautiful.  Oh my gosh.  Thank you Richard for the close ups.

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When Dean said that the last time he had a front row seat for the Lucifer/Michael show Sam went to hell, I wish Sam responded with "the last time you sacrificed yourself for me you went to hell.  I care about what happens to you and you should too" rather than just furthering the co-dependency.

I really don't need to watch Sam and Dean start a third apocalypse over it.   This is the problem when the writers write for "feelz" rather than plot or characterization and why the writing is all over the place. 

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:
This is Dabb's assistant.

 

I honestly don't get the point of cheering Dean's character growth that revenge is a bad thing in an episode where Sam is clearly gearing up for a revenge quest against Lucifer.  It's a serious WTF moment for me.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I briefly thought that when watching the episode, but I don't know how they would have switched, with Loki giving Gabriel the "spineless" speech just before Gabriel killed him. I think now that the look was more just about Gabriel not being satisfied with enacting his revenge, just like Dean said. 

This is why people need to listen to Dean more. 

I fastforwarded to all the Dean scenes because because Dean's micro expressions tell a story far better than any of the writers can and the scene with Loki kind of caught my eye  Loki tells Dean he's doing it for his dad despite that fact that his dad disposed him and then tells Dean, "but you know about that."  The look on Dean's face just broke my heart because Jensen played it like, yes he does know about that. 

Can someone just wrap Dean in a blanket of warm hugs please. 

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That felt like a total waste of time to me, and, for the first time in 9 years of live-watching I almost turned off the TV halfway through.  (That's not counting Bloodlines, which I turned off after 10 minutes.)  :)  

I always *sort-of* liked Gabriel before this season.  He was an interesting character--smart and funny and had a point to what he did (to the boys, anyway).  He was amoral, but Dean managed to reach him a time or two.  And I think he had his arc and had no real interest in seeing him again.  So this season has been annoying at best, because he's become a whole different--and less interesting--character.  I'm not fond of Richard's acting; and having twice as much in one episode was way too much for me.  Not only did we get a long and clunky flashback in order to give an explanation of how/why Gabriel is still alive, but it still didn't make much sense.  And who cares? (At least, cares enough to give it so much screen time in one of the last eps of the season when they should be trying to build to the climax.)  

Sorry, Richard, the idea of playing two different characters *and* directing?  Might have seemed like a great way to prove  how skilled you are at multitasking to TPTB, but it came across as self-indulgent to me with all the closeups and long lingering looks at yourself.  There's a reason why most actors who also direct themselves usually choose (or are given) episodes where they're in as few scenes as possible, because you can't be in two places at the same time and so one of the jobs will get short shrift.  And I'm getting tired of his "homages" to various other movies, which I have to find out about in reviews, since I mostly haven't seen them and so miss the point.  Sorry--I've never been a film noir fan.  

My bottom line is--absolutely nothing new in there (except Kevin's death.)  Nothing that couldn't have been covered in the "previouslys" in 10 seconds.  No new insights into character, no new plans.  A few good fight scenes that didn't advance any plot.  And if, like me, you're done with Gabriel, Mary and Jack, absolutely nothing to see here.  

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11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Did anyone else catch Kevin's quote, "Even when I lose, I win."

Low blow show given how Mark S. was so upset this line was cut. 

This so much. I didn't want to bring it up because what's the point. Enough bitter comments around that go nowhere, but it certainly bothered me.

It was so lame and petty, along with Speight (and his view of the show) and one more episode of eternal monologues explaining the senselessness of it all, both brothers once more standing in the background to secondary characters and in the end all must be considered good and great because they had a two minutes scene with the "feelings" dialogue.

I guess that's what it all has been reduced to: a few moments here and there. Sighs.

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11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I thought the line they used was the opposite:  "Even if you win, you lose."  I remember doing a double take about Crowley's line, then thinking, no, that's different.  (I could be wrong...)  

yes, you're right. It's exactly the opposite. But I don't believe in coincidences. Sorry, too close. I think it's their response to Mark's public comments about all that happened bts. Clearly the didn't like the critics.

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1 minute ago, belbar said:

yes, you're right. It's exactly the opposite. But I don't believe in coincidences. Sorry, too close. I think it's their response to Mark's public comments about all that happened bts. Clearly the didn't like the critics.

Oh, IA with that 100%.  I thought it was a deliberate slap.  But it would have been worse if they did use his "real" line.  

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2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I thought it was a deliberate slap.  But it would have been worse if they did use his "real" line.  

Bad enough as it is. It think they were going for the let's be prudent. but the slap is right there.

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2 minutes ago, belbar said:

Bad enough as it is. It think they were going for the let's be prudent. but the slap is right there.

Well, if I want to be kind (sometimes I do!) the writers (and Singer in particular) have always been tone-deaf about the fans.  I can see Glynn thinking that's a good line and forgetting how much the fans would overreact.  Maybe.  I don't think Glynn had anything particularly against MS to make such a dig on purpose, and I can't see Speight being so deliberately insulting to him--as director, he could have taken it out.  Maybe he thought it would be "homage"? (Or is there some BTS tension between the two of them that I don't know about?)

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I thought it was harmless but unnecessary. Back in Season 5 I really enjoyed the "psych, I`m the archangel Gabriel" twist on the Trickster but did we really need a convoluted twist on the twist? Just to get a Kill Bill story for the guy? I mean, was anyone really, really jonesing for that? It wasn`t terrible material but this close to the Finale, it seemed like padding.    

Don`t know what Speight was going on about in his interview. It`s not like Gabe bonded terribly well with Sam as opposed to Dean. He was adressing them pretty equally over the entire episode. Yes, Sam was on his side but that was because Sam really did want to live vicarously through Gabe`s Kill Bill hommage and wanted to gather data on how well it worked. 

Which, those were ridiculous character beats. Dean sought vengeance here and there over the show, sure. But Sam`s entire arc in Season 1 started with a vengeance quest just like John`s. So why was Dean saying a line like "you have seen it with me, with Dad..."  He has experienced it himself. And why does Sam have to ask Gabriel how it felt and actually fucking believed that it felt incredibly satisfying? Back in Season 5 they invented Brady the demon and retconned him to be Jessica`s real killer so Sam got a personal revenge scene with him. He can draw from that experience on how it felt afterwards. Guessing he realized it didn`t make Jessica any less dead.

That was ludicrous. Especially Sam being all gung-ho to go after Lucifer now after the Cage. There have been Seasons between that and now, one of them in which Lucifer was in the bunker and Sam and Dean played family therapists with him. You didn`t see anything of this all-consuming vengeance kink then. That is just such disjointed writing. 

I liked Dean just pointing out how pointless everything was over the course of the episode.  Thank you, Dean.

Gabe whining about his horrible torture of seven years to the brothers was just completely tone-deaf. I wish the scene had them reading a newspaper and just giving Gabriel incredulous looks when he rambled on about his torture. 

The final scene was just eh. Sam saying it was "a whole shtick with Dean lately" and then said lately meant the rift episode with Ketch, meaning this time was the second time, wow, that`s not even a pattern yet, just a line. And I liked Dean pointing out that they talked about it. Of course Sam deflected that but yes, if he wants to, he CAN speak up in the moment. He could have put his food down but he didn`t. I just don`t like he turns it back on Dean when he isn`t happy with his own choices. "You put me at the kiddie table". 

He didn`t PUT you anywhere, Sam. Start acknowledging that and change your own place at whatever table you wanna sit at. Dean is not your maitre d`. It`s not his job to take you to the seat of your liking. 

Conversely, I didn`t like how Dean gave another little song and dance about the glorious codependency. Jeez. 

And why are they yammering on about Lucifer/Michael at the moment? There is Michael in the AU-world and there is Lucifer in our world. But it`s not like the two are specifically gearing up for each other. Michael wants to invade, if Lucifer is there or not. He couldn`t give less of a crap about Lucifer per se when they met in AU-land.   

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