S06.E06: Rififi

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Henry talked to his dad about his friend's father being a successful businessman, but all we have is Henry's word for it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to presume the friend's dad is successful. Just because it happened offscreen doesn't mean it isn't accurate.

I'm not sure why Henry would lie about this in particular. He really wants to stay in school, and this conversation is about what he's trying to do to help make sure he can stay. A lie isn't going to miraculously put more money on the table.

In general, I think on this show when a character lies we either know it, or the acting choices suggest it. There's been nothing about Henry, imo, to suggest he's being devious in any way. Oblivious, maybe.

[Umbelina]

To me it sounded like that friend's father was a pretty cool guy.

To avoid embarrassing Henry OR Henry's dad, he offered that he'd had business failures too, in a  "Hey kid, it happens, your dad is still a capable guy!  It happened to me too, he'll recover, and I'd be happy to tell him what I've learned if you think he'd be OK with that." way.

[watch2much]

It seems to me that Paige screws up a lot.  If it were anyone else, Elizabeth would have fired them.  It will be ironic if one of Paige's screw ups causes their downfall.

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, watch2much said:

It seems to me that Paige screws up a lot.  If it were anyone else, Elizabeth would have fired them.  It will be ironic if one of Paige's screw ups causes their downfall.

It certainly seems to be going that way, but to me?  I'd be extremely let down if that lame thing is what brings them down.  If it's just a part of it, I might not be so disappointed, but it would still bug me.  I'm really hoping Paige's screw ups are just a red herring.

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'm really hoping Paige's screw ups are just a red herring.

I wonder if it's to show she's deeply unsuited to fieldwork, no matter how blind an eye Elizabeth turns. I can see Elizabeth really clinging to training Paige because it's a way to hold onto her (Elizabeth's) beliefs when everything around her is falling apart. I also wonder how honest Elizabeth is being with Claudia about Paige's ineptitude. Paige is putting everyone she works with in danger.

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It certainly seems to be going that way, but to me?  I'd be extremely let down if that lame thing is what brings them down.  If it's just a part of it, I might not be so disappointed, but it would still bug me.  I'm really hoping Paige's screw ups are just a red herring.

Maybe before the ending Elizabeth will tell Paige she shouldn't do this or something. Or at least tell it to Philip. I mean, it seems like Stan's got plenty of was to actually track them down, but it would be a big step for Elizabeth to get perspective on Paige.

[Dowel Jones]

8 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Henry talked to his dad about his friend's father being a successful businessman, but all we have is Henry's word for it.

Henry's friend's dad is another illegal who is planning to recruit Philip to spy for an as yet unnamed country.  Ha.

[Cardie]

6 hours ago, watch2much said:

It will be ironic if one of Paige's screw ups causes their downfall.

I will be dissatisfied if their downfall doesn't start when the evidence the FBI is poring through finally triggers a connection that makes Stan realize the Jennings are illegals. What will happen after that could go a dozen different ways but I feel Stan, Aderholt and co. have to find out through actual investigative work.

[Ellaria]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:56 AM, Darrenbrett said:

3.) For me, the payoff with Stan is somewhat lessened by the fact that he's not in counter-espionage anymore. I would rather have had him directly involved in the slow building of the investigation into the illegals overt the last 3 years. But, beyond that, more than anything, what I REALLY want in one of the remaining episodes is a moment when Stan's intimate knowledge of P and E makes something click for him; in a way it wouldn't/doesn't click for Aderholt or anyone else on the team. And I want him to reflect on how his actions impacted Nina when it comes to his decision about what he's going to do about P and E. That would show character growth/complexity that would be compelling...

...All that said, I'm hyped to see how it all plays out. And, after having lived through several somewhat anti-climatic series endings, I'm fully prepared to not be fully satisfied. I'm not even sure that's possible (being fully satisfied). The lead-up, the unknowns, and the multiple possibilities are probably always more intriguing than any kind of final resolution, no matter how apt it is. Ultimately, I just want the show to be true to itself and to its characters in the wrap-up.

That  entire post was excellent, @Darrenbrett

I would like to see Stan have this epiphany as well but I fear that we are running out of time. It shouldn't happen in one episode, IMO. Stan is the FBI agent at the center of this show. His reaction and response should derive from his experience and training as well as humanity (or lack of). It has to be complex. And it should be all on Stan not Aderholt or - please - Renee.

5 hours ago, Cardie said:

I will be dissatisfied if their downfall doesn't start when the evidence the FBI is poring through finally triggers a connection that makes Stan realize the Jennings are illegals. What will happen after that could go a dozen different ways but I feel Stan, Aderholt and co. have to find out through actual investigative work.

Agree - discovery through actual investigation rather than stumbling onto something like leftover beef stew in the refrigerator. 

Somehow, I think that I am going to be disappointed. And yes, I am more often disappointed with the end of great shows than satisfied (other than Breaking Bad and The Wire). The journey is usually more satisfying than the conclusion. 

[anonymiss]

18 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I would like to see Stan have this epiphany as well but I fear that we are running out of time. It shouldn't happen in one episode, IMO. Stan is the FBI agent at the center of this show. His reaction and response should derive from his experience and training as well as humanity (or lack of). It has to be complex. And it should be all on Stan not Aderholt or - please - Renee.

I agree. I hope it's not as literally shitty as I felt it was on Breaking Bad.

[qtpye]

34 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

I agree. I hope it's not as literally shitty as I felt it was on Breaking Bad.

Now I am picturing Stan on the toilet having an "Aha" moment.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, anonymiss said:

I agree. I hope it's not as literally shitty as I felt it was on Breaking Bad.

Hah! I thought it was perfect for the character, since right or wrong, he was such an asshole.

[MisterBluxom]

On 5/7/2018 at 12:56 AM, Darrenbrett said:

A few (somewhat random) thoughts after reflecting on this quality episode for a few days:

1.) The actor that played the intern/film buff is a remarkable actor. I completely bought into his portrayal of the character. For me, he WAS the character. It's rare that acting is so good it becomes invisible.

2.) I also noticed the marks on E's face, and HIV/AIDS definitely crossed my mind, too. And, while it fits with the era, I asked myself, would the show-runners really want to add that massive dynamic to the plot with four episodes left to wrap up the entire series? I doubt it. Not saying it's impossible, but it seems doubtful to me. Also, if it were meant to be a foreshadowing of HIV/AIDS, I think we would have had one of those long, brooding moments with E in front of a mirror, her face turned to the side with her regarding the blemish. 

3.) For me, the payoff with Stan is somewhat lessened by the fact that he's not in counter-espionage anymore. I would rather have had him directly involved in the slow building of the investigation into the illegals overt the last 3 years. But, beyond that, more than anything, what I REALLY want in one of the remaining episodes is a moment when Stan's intimate knowledge of P and E makes something click for him; in a way it wouldn't/doesn't click for Aderholt or anyone else on the team. And I want him to reflect on how his actions impacted Nina when it comes to his decision about what he's going to do about P and E. That would show character growth/complexity that would be compelling.

4.) With all the killings Elizabeth has committed, while she's not NEARLY as self-reflective as Philip -- obviously -- I still would have liked -- and still hope for (perhaps in vain) -- something equivalent to a  sleepless night or a traumatic recall for her around all she's done; re:the human cost for her cause, beloved though it may be. I mean, just in terms of writing, that would make her character more relatable and human. I don't expect her to do a 180, but some visible turmoil would be nice; beyond the chronic tiredness and nicotine addiction. Human beings, in real life, are complex. Lately she's been portrayed as a little too one-dimensional for me; and something's been lost a little, in terms of her relatability. What made her character dynamic for me was the internal conflict. I want much more of that in the final episodes.

All that said, I'm hyped to see how it all plays out. And, after having lived through several somewhat anti-climatic series endings, I'm fully prepared to not be fully satisfied. I'm not even sure that's possible (being fully satisfied). The lead-up, the unknowns, and the multiple possibilities are probably always more intriguing than any kind of final resolution, no matter how apt it is. Ultimately, I just want the show to be true to itself and to its characters in the wrap-up.

Suspecting HIV/AIDS caught me off guard. But OMG! What a startling thought. If that turns out to be what happens, it will be like someone stuck a .... OH DEAR! For some reason, I cannot seem to recall the name of those big huge medieval axes. But, if that should turn out to be true. I will be just amazed! In a way, that would be an extremely "fitting" development. But in another way, I fear that I might must break down and cry. I know that Keri Russell is an actor who plays the role of "Elizabeth" and that she is not at risk for any kind of misfortune as the result of anything bad happening to her character. And yet ... I would feel just devestated should anything bad happen to her character. Over the  past six years, I have come to experience some very strong feelings for Elizabeth. I know that makes little sense but yet, I just can't help it. It makes no sense. But I truly love this lady. Oh dear. I'm a goner. So sad. So foolish. But ... she is just such a great actor. Either that, or I'm just such a big fool.  Oh ... Elizabeth. We hardly knew you. How could this ever have happened? I would need some real therapy if your character ever were to come to harm on this show.  I must confess.   I feel like such a fool as I typed that.   Oh Dang it!

Edited May 8, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I cannot seem to recall the name of those big huge medieval axes.

It's a broadaxe.  Ask Mel Gibson how it works.  :(

[MisterBluxom]

3 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

It's a broadaxe.  Ask Mel Gibson how it works.  :(

Heh Heh! Yes. That is one name for it. But I'm sure there is another name for it and I think it may start with the letter "C" although I'm not certain of that.  I'll try to find out what it is.

Actually, there may be more than one. One other name is "Battle Axe".

Holy Smoke! There are millions of different kinds of huge axes.

But I just remembered. It's called a Claymore!

https://www.google.com/search?q=claymore+axe&client=firefox-b&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnxOjt_PbaAhXnct8KHULkAsQQ7AkINA

Edited May 8, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Pink-n-Green]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:36 AM, dubbel zout said:

My dad and his sisters were all tall (the "short" sister was 5'10"),

Wow.  And to think that, until my daughter grew taller than me, I was considered the amazon female in  my extended family.  All 5'3 of me! 

[dubbel zout]

We are a giant Swedish/German horde.

[BradandJanet]

The AIDS idea is interesting. Elizabeth shows symptoms, although I thought Karposi's doesn't show up until the disease is advanced. Phillip would be at risk. Henry might be gay and complicate that plot. While I don't dislike Paige or Holly Taylor, I can't see her as the last Jennings left standing. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, BradandJanet said:

The AIDS idea is interesting. Elizabeth shows symptoms, although I thought Karposi's doesn't show up until the disease is advanced. Phillip would be at risk. Henry might be gay and complicate that plot. While I don't dislike Paige or Holly Taylor, I can't see her as the last Jennings left standing. 

I really think Elizabeth just put a birthmark on her cheek for her disguise in Chicago. There's stills where it's very prominent in scenes where she's in that disguise and non-existent elsewhere. She's not showing symptoms of AIDS that I've noticed and there's really no reason to think Henry is gay at all.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Is there a list somewhere listing how many individuals each character has killed?  I would imagine that Elizabeth has destroyed more lives than the  rest of the other characters combined.

There was somebody who was keeping a kill count. Philip and Elizabeth were I think even before this season when Elizabeth started killing people every week, sometimes multiple people.

[Umbelina]

Yes, it was 16 kills for each one of them, a least kills we saw or heard about on screen before this season began.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2018/03/26/americans-numbers-all-those-wigs/454010002/

[anonymiss]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:56 PM, Darrenbrett said:

4.) With all the killings Elizabeth has committed, while she's not NEARLY as self-reflective as Philip -- obviously -- I still would have liked -- and still hope for (perhaps in vain) -- something equivalent to a  sleepless night or a traumatic recall for her around all she's done; re:the human cost for her cause, beloved though it may be. I mean, just in terms of writing, that would make her character more relatable and human. I don't expect her to do a 180, but some visible turmoil would be nice; beyond the chronic tiredness and nicotine addiction. Human beings, in real life, are complex. Lately she's been portrayed as a little too one-dimensional for me; and something's been lost a little, in terms of her relatability. What made her character dynamic for me was the internal conflict. I want much more of that in the final episodes.

I think that is intentional and makes sense because their work is doubly dehumanizing now that she's doing it all herself (and training a petulant liability of a daughter doesn't help). She isn't carrying on like a typical relateable person because she isn't. But she is still human and Keri does portray her internal conflict in a skillful nuanced way true to her hardened character. In order to be what she is, she has to believe the ends justify the means and she is conditioned to compartmentalize emotions from work. However, we see when the emotions threaten to come out, e.g., when she has to take a moment and collect herself after the double murder to contain the strain registered on her face; when she looks hard at herself in the mirror and gulps before tying the suicide pill around her neck; when she wants to hear from her son because she's scared she may not have the chance again. If she lets herself feel more, she won't be able to perform for her life's mission, so she just keeps smoking as her only release.

Edited May 9, 2018 by anonymiss

[qtpye]

23 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

Suspecting HIV/AIDS caught me off guard. But OMG! What a startling thought. If that turns out to be what happens, it will be like someone stuck a .... OH DEAR! For some reason, I cannot seem to recall the name of those big huge medieval axes. But, if that should turn out to be true. I will be just amazed! In a way, that would be an extremely "fitting" development. But in another way, I fear that I might must break down and cry. I know that Keri Russell is an actor who plays the role of "Elizabeth" and that she is not at risk for any kind of misfortune as the result of anything bad happening to her character. And yet ... I would feel just devestated should anything bad happen to her character. Over the  past six years, I have come to experience some very strong feelings for Elizabeth. I know that makes little sense but yet, I just can't help it. It makes no sense. But I truly love this lady. Oh dear. I'm a goner. So sad. So foolish. But ... she is just such a great actor. Either that, or I'm just such a big fool.  Oh ... Elizabeth. We hardly knew you. How could this ever have happened? I would need some real therapy if your character ever were to come to harm on this show.  I must confess.   I feel like such a fool as I typed that.   Oh Dang it!

I think dying of AIDS would be particularly tragic for this character. E has almost accepted that she will die fighting for the cause and it would be the honorable death of a warrior. However, even if the AIDs was the result of her doing her sex work for the job, it will not have the same nobility, particularly around this time period.

[Colleenna]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:45 PM, jjj said:

Did you catch the reference to the artist Erica?  Another agent is working as a nurse, and Elizabeth was actually hurt that Erica "let" the other "nurse" touch her feet.  "She let you touch her feet?"  And then Elizabeth became inhabited by Erica  when she tried to draw the light after that conversation -- and there were tears in Elizabeth's eyes as she was drawing, I noticed on the second viewing.

I was a little surprised because I would assume that at that stage of disease, all of her body would be under treatment, with not much off limits. 

Have they ever said what disease she has? If so, I must have missed it. 

[misstwpherecool]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:56 PM, Darrenbrett said:

 

 

 

4.) With all the killings Elizabeth has committed, while she's not NEARLY as self-reflective as Philip -- obviously -- I still would have liked -- and still hope for (perhaps in vain) -- something equivalent to a  sleepless night or a traumatic recall for her around all she's done; re:the human cost for her cause, beloved though it may be. I mean, just in terms of writing, that would make her character more relatable and human. I don't expect her to do a 180, but some visible turmoil would be nice; beyond the chronic tiredness and nicotine addiction. Human beings, in real life, are complex. Lately she's been portrayed as a little too one-dimensional for me; and something's been lost a little, in terms of her relatability. What made her character dynamic for me was the internal conflict. I want much more of that in the final episodes.

 

My thing with all of the innocent people killed and/or missing this would've raised suspicion. They were dropping bodies in season one after they had already been here for almost 2 decades. Think about the bodies they dropped prior. It's a lot of seemingly random killings and missing persons. I can't believe somebody's family, friend or even co workers wouldn't have gone to a tv news show or news paper begging the public for help. That being said how would E or P react if a family member popped up on/in the news with a picture of their loved one/murder victim of the Jennings. I'd love them to be able to tie at least one of those murders to E. If she gets caught that should be part of her 'deal' along with intel the names and locations of all the bodies dropped. But how would E react years later and they're described as ruthless killers, not assassins or spies?

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, Colleenna said:

Have they ever said what disease she has? If so, I must have missed it. 

I'm pretty sure it's cancer, maybe breast? I don't think we've heard explicitly.

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, Colleenna said:

Have they ever said what disease she has? If so, I must have missed it. 

I think the showrunners have said it's pancreatic cancer. 

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth is a true spy.  It honestly doesn't matter which country you spy for, the most effective and honored ones, are like Elizabeth.  She puts her country before everything, including and especially herself.

Philip isn't cut out to be a spy.  He's been effective, but he never puts his country first, for him?  He puts his wife first, and trailing a bit behind that are his kids, a bit behind that are his feelings/soul, and then taking up the rear?  His country.

[Moose135]

4 hours ago, Colleenna said:

Have they ever said what disease she has? If so, I must have missed it. 

 

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure it's cancer, maybe breast? I don't think we've heard explicitly.

 

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think the showrunners have said it's pancreatic cancer. 

Did I miss something?  I know there's been speculation here because of some schmutz on her face and her calling Henry, but I don't recall hearing anything about her being sick mentioned on the show.  Or is this a case of the showrunners making comments on podcasts and expecting everyone to be following them in order to know what is happening on the show?  Because I'm not ever going to do that...

[Umbelina]

Just now, Moose135 said:

 

 

Did I miss something?  I know there's been speculation here because of some schmutz on her face and her calling Henry, but I don't recall hearing anything about her being sick mentioned on the show.  Or is this a case of the showrunners making comments on podcasts and expecting everyone to be following them in order to know what is happening on the show?  Because I'm not ever going to do that...

They are talking about the painter, not about Elizabeth.

I missed it at first too, for the same reasons.

[Moose135]

Thanks, @Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is a true spy.  It honestly doesn't matter which country you spy for, the most effective and honored ones, are like Elizabeth.  She puts her country before everything, including and especially herself.

Philip isn't cut out to be a spy.  He's been effective, but he never puts his country first, for him?  He puts his wife first, and trailing a bit behind that are his kids, a bit behind that are his feelings/soul, and then taking up the rear?  His country.

But isn't that part of the whole point of this Mexico City plot? As Oleg said, her loyalty can be used. She's currently working against her country (albeit actually not that effectively at the moment) because she didn't think it through. I mean, obviously Philip (and Oleg) are capable of questioning or abandoning this work in ways Elizabeth never could. She's psychologically incapable of questioning it in any deep way. (She'd be a better suicide bomber and terrorist etc. as well.) Philip can't do the job he's supposed to do if he's also questioning whether he should do it. That makes him ineffective. But Elizabeth's desperation to do the job alone can't make her always effective. This season she's not only ineffective, she's leaving a trail for the FBI to finally follow. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

 

Someday I have to learn how to delete quotes on this board!  Sorry.

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is a true spy.  It honestly doesn't matter which country you spy for, the most effective and honored ones, are like Elizabeth.  She puts her country before everything, including and especially herself.

Philip isn't cut out to be a spy.  He's been effective, but he never puts his country first, for him?  He puts his wife first, and trailing a bit behind that are his kids, a bit behind that are his feelings/soul, and then taking up the rear?  His country.

 

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But isn't that part of the whole point of this Mexico City plot? As Oleg said, her loyalty can be used. She's currently working against her country (albeit actually not that effectively at the moment) because she didn't think it through. I mean, obviously Philip (and Oleg) are capable of questioning or abandoning this work in ways Elizabeth never couldn't. She's psychologically incapable of questioning it in any deep way. (She'd be a better suicide bomber and terrorist etc. as well.) Philip can't do the job he's supposed to do if he's also questioning whether he should do it. That makes him ineffective. But Elizabeth's desperation to do the job alone can't make her always effective. This season she's not only ineffective, she's leaving a trail for the FBI to finally follow. 

 

I had to quote mine as well here. 

Elizabeth wasn't given a choice to think it through, but if she did?  She'd make the same choice.  The USSR WILL give up most of their weapons and the USA will give up almost nothing.  That was what happened.  Elizabeth, of course, would not want that to happen.  That said, that guy in Mexico would have killed her in a heartbeat if she didn't agree.  She was trapped in the middle of a coup.

By my definition above, neither Oleg nor Philip would be "good spies."  Oleg betrayed his country already.  Philip quit.  After that?  It gets very murky because do spies work for the leader of the country or for their agency?  Sometimes there are bad or foolish leaders.  The CIA goes on, or in this case, the KGB goes on, no matter who is sitting in that leadership chair at the moment.

So it's very murky now about the Oleg/Philip faction vs. the Elizabeth/coup faction.  Who is right and who is wrong.  Who would be right and who would be wrong if they were CIA, and the United States was giving up all of IT"S weapons while the Soviet Union kept there's?

Elizabeth is following orders and that's what spies do.  They don't make the policy decisions, they don't think about "how they FEEL" about them.  They do their jobs. 

That's all I mean, it's not a slam on Philip as a person at all, or on Elizabeth really.  Spies suck.  Spying sucks.  It's necessary though, and it all falls apart if they start caring more about their feelings than their country, whatever that country may be. 

ETA

There is a huge difference between being a great person or being a great spy, I defined a great spy up there, not a great person.  However, if this were flipped, and the USA would be left essentially helpless and weaponless against the USSR?  I'd be rooting for CIA-Elizabeth's choice.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth wasn't given a choice to think it through, but if she did?  She'd make the same choice.  The USSR WILL give up most of their weapons and the USA will give up almost nothing.  That was what happened.  Elizabeth, of course, would not want that to happen.  That said, that guy in Mexico would have killed her in a heartbeat if she didn't agree.  She was trapped in the middle of a coup.

 

I agree she would have, but what if the guy was on the other side? If she was given Philip's job instead? Would she have had trouble with doing something that she didn't think was right for the country? I mean, sometimes countries change. Or there's a case like this where you've got a split in the leadership.

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

By my definition above, neither Oleg nor Philip would be "good spies."  Oleg betrayed his country already.  Philip quit.  After that?  It gets very murky because do spies work for the leader of the country or for their agency?  Sometimes there are bad or foolish leaders.  The CIA goes on, or in this case, the KGB goes on, no matter who is sitting in that leadership chair at the moment.

 

That's probably where it gets into a semantics issue because I don't know how I'd define a good spy.  But I might define more in terms of skills and the types of things they were able to pull off. I wouldn't consider somebody a worse spy because they quit. Lots of people hold onto jobs they're not good at or are no longer good at etc. Elizabeth would be a good spy by any definition, of course, since she's also skilled.

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So it's very murky now about the Oleg/Philip faction vs. the Elizabeth/coup faction.  Who is right and who is wrong.  Who would be right and who would be wrong if they were CIA, and the United States was giving up all of IT"S weapons while the Soviet Union kept there's?

 

Right, and also we don't know if that's what's happening. If the USSR was actually giving up all its weapons Elizabeth would be right to want to stop them--but she would also be putting her own ideas of what's right over the leader's and so being like Oleg and Renhull. She's also stealing US technology which is taking a more proactive role in the summit. She's not just trying to find out if Gobachev's doing a bad thing, she's stealing US weapons and so changing Gorbachev's position at the bargaining table for the worse.

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is following orders and that's what spies do.  They don't make the policy decisions, they don't think about "how they FEEL" about them.  They do their jobs. 

 

But she's following orders that are explicitly against the orders of the country's leadership. As you said and I agree, she would agree with these orders if she thought them through, but what if she didn't? If Mexico City had given her Philip's job would just have reported the guy to her rightful superiors? Wouldn't that come down to her own feelings?

To me, I guess, it's just that I think both characters are very much driven by feelings. Their feelings just fall out in very different ways. Elizabeth will always want to put her orders above any personal misgivings she has, but I think that's partly because she doesn't want any misgivings. This is definitely the life she wants in ways other characters don't want it, though I guess that could be its own problem. Like if she's not being objective about Paige in her desperation to hold on to both sides.

[Dev F]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philip can't do the job he's supposed to do if he's also questioning whether he should do it. That makes him ineffective. But Elizabeth's desperation to do the job alone can't make her always effective. This season she's not only ineffective, she's leaving a trail for the FBI to finally follow. 

There's also a tendency, I think, to judge Elizabeth by her abilities at their height, and Philip by his lack of game now. But back in the day Philip was extraordinarily good at worming his way into positions of influence, and he's responsible for some of their most valuable assets, including long-term access into both the FBI (Martha) and the CIA (Kimmy), and a willing agent among President Reagan's political advisers (Charles Duluth).

I always thought that season 1 did a fantastic job of illustrating Philip's and Elizabeth's separate but complementary specialties via their main witting assets. Elizabeth had Gregory, a civil rights activist whom she fell in love with and converted to the Communist cause, then trained to serve as her and Philip's main operational asset for surveillance and the like. Philip had Charles Duluth, an already committed Communist, whom he talked into living his entire life as a lie so as to become his and Elizabeth's eyes and ears among their ideological enemies. In other words, Elizabeth is a fiery true believer and a tactical thinker who specializes in the nuts and bolts of espionage operations. Philip is a wily seducer with a strategic mind who specializes in infiltration and psyops. At their peak, they were both pretty brilliant at their respective specialties.

[Umbelina]

I agree with all of that @Dev F.

What I mean about judging spies is more about how their own agencies would judge them, since only other spies opinions, their bosses, etc. would matter.  Or, in some ways, if in this story, we put the Jennings fighting for the USA instead of the USSR, which spy would be more valuable, more trustworthy, or ever get any honors?

Right now Elizabeth is following her boss's BOSS's orders.  She's never taken order directly from Gorbachev, or any other leader.  That's what I mean about agencies like the CIA, FBI, GRU, KGB, MI5 and 6, all of them really.  They often go through several leaders, in the USA we do it on the regular, so I don't think of spy agencies or spies for that matter having allegiances to the leaders.  As I was trying to say (and not well!) the agencies go on, the leaders change, do they always support their leaders?  On paper yes, in reality, probably some more than others.  The agencies are the constants though.

Quote

Right, and also we don't know if that's what's happening. If the USSR was actually giving up all its weapons Elizabeth would be right to want to stop them--but she would also be putting her own ideas of what's right over the leader's and so being like Oleg and Renhull. She's also stealing US technology which is taking a more proactive role in the summit. She's not just trying to find out if Gobachev's doing a bad thing, she's stealing US weapons and so changing Gorbachev's position at the bargaining table for the worse.

Well, we do know, we have that luxury, because it actually happened in real life, not "all their weapons" but yes, most of them, and the USA did not give up anything nearly as significant. 

As for the rest, it goes back to who are their leaders?  As I explained above, their loyalty belongs to their agency, not whomever is sitting in the leader chair at that moment.  She's not stealing stuff on her own, she's been ordered to steal.  She does as she's told.

Right now there is a rift in that leadership, two factions, Gorbachev's and the Hardliners.  For possibly the first time, she is making a choice, rather than doing as told, not because she wants to, but because she has to.  There are two definite sides, and she picked the one she thinks is best for her country and honestly for the world, the USA is the only country to ever use nukes, and they did it against civilians.  Twice.  Philip is picking the side he thinks is best for his country, or really, in Philip and Oleg's case, for the world as well.

They've created a lovely quagmire for us in this finale season.  Well done guys.

ETA

@sistermagpie

Quote

Right, and also we don't know if that's what's happening. If the USSR was actually giving up all its weapons Elizabeth would be right to want to stop them--but she would also be putting her own ideas of what's right over the leader's and so being like Oleg and Renhull. She's also stealing US technology which is taking a more proactive role in the summit. She's not just trying to find out if Gobachev's doing a bad thing, she's stealing US weapons and so changing Gorbachev's position at the bargaining table for the worse.

Again though, they aren't HER ideas, she didn't come up with this.  She's taking orders from her boss's boss.  I agree though, for the first time ever Elizabeth had to make a choice.  Does she follow her direct boss's orders (Arkady) or does she follow Arkady's boss's orders (the coup?)  So it does come down to, Elizabeth going with what she feels is right.  Probably for the first time in her career.  She didn't choose to decide though, she was forced to decide.

Philip and Martha are a better example of disobeying orders.  He was ordered to leave her in place.  He, and he alone, decided not to do that, and forced the KGB and his bosses to comply. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Umbelina

[misstwpherecool]

P and Oleg are good spies but/and yes questioning orders/procedure a person loses effectiveness in any organization because TIME spent thinking either causes one to lose an opportunity and slows things down. 'Thinking' is  what 'management' is for in most organizations. Soldiers are just to supposed to act/follow orders. This is why actors follow a script, athletes a play and most employees set policies and procedures. That being said sometimes thinking before one jumps is what saves you, especially spies out on their own with little support. They have to think on their own more than a soldier in an army. This will be E's undoing. This year alone she used multiple sloppy killings which not only increases chances of being discovered/leaving evidence she also stands a chance of getting injured/ killed herself not walking away or approaching the mission differently. Another example-plan to kidnap CIA guy's daughter for leverage and intel-like that wouldn't raise flags? E is loyal to the bone but blind faith has also lead more than one to their demise.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

always thought that season 1 did a fantastic job of illustrating Philip's and Elizabeth's separate but complementary specialties via their main witting assets. Elizabeth had Gregory, a civil rights activist whom she fell in love with and converted to the Communist cause, then trained to serve as her and Philip's main operational asset for surveillance and the like. Philip had Charles Duluth, an already committed Communist, whom he talked into living his entire life as a lie so as to become his and Elizabeth's eyes and ears among their ideological enemies. In other words, Elizabeth is a fiery true believer and a tactical thinker who specializes in the nuts and bolts of espionage operations. Philip is a wily seducer with a strategic mind who specializes in infiltration and psyops. At their peak, they were both pretty brilliant at their respective specialties.

Yes excellent point and it really was something they highlighted early on. Even this season Kimmie was useful or would have been. 

This of course also gets into how Elizabeth is able to keep working.  She's openly stated how she doesn't want emotional attachments but it's emotional attachment that often makes Philip effective. Elizabeth had that with Young Hee and it was difficult for her. Gregory too. In both cases she chose to pull the trigger but it was hard. And in Gregory's case he chose too. 

36 minutes ago, misstwpherecool said:

P and Oleg are good spies but/and yes questioning orders/procedure a person loses effectiveness in any organization because TIME spent thinking either causes one to lose an opportunity and slows things down. 'Thinking' is  what 'management' is for in most organizations. Soldiers are just to supposed to act/follow orders. This is why actors follow a script, athletes a play and most employees set policies and procedures. That being said sometimes thinking before one jumps is what saves you, especially spies out on their own with little support.

Right and another good example is in In Control where Philip holds off on reporting intel he knows the Centre will misunderstand. And Elizabeth agrees on that one. 

Emotionally they're better together too. Elizabeth gets more criticism for her ruthlessness without Philip but I think he genuinely wants to stay motivated as well. He really doesn't want to be a rich businessman. I think in this ep him asking Elizabeth to come home was like a thing he felt like he had to say even though he knew the answer. She didn't even have to ask him to come to her. I think he does want to be doing something for the world.

[Darrenbrett]

9 hours ago, anonymiss said:

I think that is intentional and makes sense because their work is doubly dehumanizing now that she's doing it all herself (and training a petulant liability of a daughter doesn't help). She isn't carrying on like a typical relateable person because she isn't. But she is still human and Keri does portray her internal conflict in a skillful nuanced way true to her hardened character. In order to be what she is, she has to believe the ends justify the means and she is conditioned to compartmentalize emotions from work. However, we see when the emotions threaten to come out, e.g., when she has to take a moment and collect herself after the double murder to contain the strain registered on her face; when she looks hard at herself in the mirror and gulps before tying the suicide pill around her neck; when she wants to hear from her son because she's scared she may not have the chance again. If she lets herself feel more, she won't be able to perform for her life's mission, so she just keeps smoking as her only release.

But my original point was that I thought the show runners did a better job of demonstrating her internal conflict in previous episodes/seasons. I'm fully aware she's compartmentalized, and that she's anything but typically relateable, but still... if her humanness doesn't shine through at points, it makes her a less compelling character. That was all I was saying.

[BingeyKohan]

We now have Paige applying to the State Department around the same time Renee is applying to the FBI. I'm starting to be concerned this is merely pipe the writers are laying to flow off past the end point of the finale, meaning the cycle of distrust and duplicity will continue. It could be that Stan will be gone but Renee will be at the Bureau (and will remain suspicious but with no clarity around her), and Paige will be getting situated in Foggy Bottom. Although if the hammer comes down on her mother I can't imagine she'd actually make it past the State Department background checks.

ETA: I don't know how I managed to put this in the Rififi episode thread. I meant it for the Predictions for the Final Season one. I won't be offended if it gets deleted.

Edited May 10, 2018 by BingeyKohan

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, BingeyKohan said:

It could be that Stan will be gone but Renee will be at the Bureau (and will remain suspicious but with no clarity around her), and Paige will be getting situated in Foggy Bottom. Although if the hammer comes down on her mother I can't imagine she'd actually make it past the State Department background checks.

It's hard to imagine the show really expecting us to worry about these two idiots getting in anywhere, imo. Renee being suspicious just makes her a loose end who was maybe written badly. If Elizabeth and Philip get caught not only would Paige probably be outed too but she'd no longer have much reason to do this work.

[Joe Hellandback]

Oh my god, only 4 eps left of the second best series on TV!

Hmmm, Philip looking into their emergency cache, perhaps to take money to save the business? Elizabeth phoning her son? Wonders will never cease! You get the feeling that this really is the endgame for the family. Stan and the boys finally getting a break and looking to exploit it all the way.

How will the series conclude? Will they ever tell Henry? Will Elizabeth take Paige back to Russia leaving Philip with Henry? Is Elizabeth luring Philip to Chicago for nefarious purposes? A week seems a long time to wait!

[MaryPatShelby]

On 5/2/2018 at 10:19 PM, RedHawk said:

They did a pretty good job of making the subway car look like those of the DC Metro, but the driver was enunciating the next stops waaay too clearly. It was not “Far-ra-gut West”, but “Faarguh Wess” or some such variation, usually with lots of static. Ride Metro, Show!

 

I lived in the DC area in '81-'82, and worked in Vienna, to which I had to drive from my home in Falls Church.  In this ep the subway announcement mentioned the Vienna/Fairfax stop - did the subway really go to Vienna by 1987?  I know I could probably look that up myself, but I like to engage with online people sometimes!  Anyone know?

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 10:04 PM, aquarian1 said:

Wow, that call Elizabeth made to Henry.  Just wow.  She really is expecting to die in this one and she reached out.  And Philip, of course, totally got that.  I'm already gutted and nothing has happened yet.

Yes, Henry's "why is she so sad?" and E's own admission to P that she doesn't think they can pull off this assignment felt like a turning point for Philip.  My thought was that he's not going to let her die away from him.  He'll do what he can to keep her alive (and the mission a success), but if she dies, he'll be there and maybe go with her.

Re the tannery job, I thought I heard Henry say that it paid "seven-ten ($7.10) an hour" plus they put you up (no living expenses).  That rate would have been more than twice the minimum wage of 1987, which was $3.35. 

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Re the tannery job, I thought I heard Henry say that it paid "seven-ten ($7.10) an hour" plus they put you up (no living expenses).  That rate would have been more than twice the minimum wage of 1987, which was $3.35. 

Yes, which was why it was appealing to Henry. He could earn way more than working in a mall, or whatever. There are some jobs like that - which generally involve health hazards - where they'd pay more for workers. Tanneries, if I recall, would involve a lot of exposure to hazardous chemicals/fumes.

[Inquisitionist]

Of course.  I was reflecting on a comment from above (unquoted) where someone thought Henry was going to earn $16/hour. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Of course.  I was reflecting on a comment from above (unquoted) where someone thought Henry was going to earn $16/hour. 

Well, don't mind me. I shouldn't be posting while sick.

[Inquisitionist]

56 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Well, don't mind me. I shouldn't be posting while sick.

Ha-ha!  I should provide references so people know what I'm musing about.  :-)

[John Potts]

Huh. Guess the KGB recruited the wrong kid in the Jennings household. Henry seemed way more perceptive & resourceful than Paige is. He immediately picked up on the strain between P & E, was concerned by E's phone call & enacted a plan to pay his tuition AND save his dad's business. On the other hand, I guess they may have judged Paige as more politically reliable, so perhaps the KGB made the right choice

I've been backing the idea that the series will end with Phil & Elizabeth killing each other and five minutes in it definitely looked likely, but then Philip had to go and help Liz on her mission, so maybe not.

I feel like this episode was a response to everyone who's been saying the US govt must see a pattern - they have, but the wheels of govt run REALLY slowly. I will love it if it's that sort of patient grunt work (without use of a Google!) that is what unmasks Phil & Liz.

Was the art house cinema guy meant to be gay? Not to stereotype people that watch French films (hell, I've watched one or two in my time) but he didn't seem very interested in a date with Liz.

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 1:15 PM, icemiser69 said:

Elizabeth is such an evil woman.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she intentionally sounded all depressed to Henry knowing that Henry would go talk to Philip about it.

I thought it was (as she admitted to her colleague) because she was about to attempt a low odds operation. And she's been told she can't be taken alive. I think she just wanted to talk to her son for (possibly) the last time.

 

On ‎03‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, MissBluxom said:

I'm guessing that young man was around 21 years old. 

In my experience, men at that young age - especially if they are a bit of a nerd and loner like that fellow is - fall really hard for most any lady - regardless of any age difference.

Honestly, if somebody that looked like Keri Russell started hitting on me in a cinema I'd be flattered but wondering what the hell she was doing. I'm not saying it wouldn't work on me (and I'm roughly Keri Russell's age), but I'd be freaked out!

On ‎04‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 2:24 PM, icemiser69 said:

I know Henry is still very young, but if he is half as smart as most people here think he is, he would have thought of a better way to talk to his father about all of those financial issues.

I can see a teenager acting like he knows it all. Would it be well received? Probably not. He probably could have handled it better, but he was well intentioned (and may well be right - but that doesn't mean it isn't a blow to Philip's pride that his son might be better at running a business than he is).

[dubbel zout]

13 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Was the art house cinema guy meant to be gay? Not to stereotype people that watch French films (hell, I've watched one or two in my time) but he didn't seem very interested in a date with Liz.

I appreciated that he didn't immediately fall all over her. I know for the show we had to see more success than failure when Elizabeth targets someone, but not everyone is going to be receptive. There area. lot of reasons: He might have wanted to watch Rififi in peace. He might already have a significant other. He might just have wanted to get home and go to bed because he's got an early day. He might think this attractive lady is a bit too pushy with wanting to talk to him.

[Clanstarling]

36 minutes ago, John Potts said:

Was the art house cinema guy meant to be gay? Not to stereotype people that watch French films (hell, I've watched one or two in my time) but he didn't seem very interested in a date with Liz.

 

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I appreciated that he didn't immediately fall all over her. I know for the show we had to see more success than failure when Elizabeth targets someone, but not everyone is going to be receptive. There area. lot of reasons: He might have wanted to watch Rififi in peace. He might already have a significant other. He might just have wanted to get home and go to bed because he's got an early day. He might think this attractive lady is a bit too pushy with wanting to talk to him.

I thought it was a sign that Elizabeth's days of easily honeytrapping were near the end. Part of the general lack of success she's been having (or at least, the lack of flawless success).