S06.E06: Rififi

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Lily H said:

I just cringed when Elizabeth asked movie nerd out for pizza and he blew her off. She's a beautiful woman, but she's still a middle-aged woman, and I would think most college-age guys who have a life and friends would just be creeped out at having a desperate-sounding older woman come on to them. When she corralled him in the subway, I was expecting him to run for the hills at the first opportunity. Now, if movie nerd had been a lonely guy in his 40s or 50s, then yes, I'm sure her charms would have worked wonders.

And I'm still not clear on exactly what Elizabeth and Marilyn are intending to do in Chicago (that apparently has such a limited chance of success). Rescue him? Killing him seems more likely, even though the damage has already been done, but wouldn't they be able to come up with a good plan to pull that off?

Liz is supposed to help the illegal in Chicago shake the FBI tail, and escape, possibly with an assassination as plan B. Plan B is realistic, but I fear the writers may just give us another example of FBI doofi being unable to perform basic tasks. Who knows, maybe The Very Special Agents of The Bureau will neglect to cover the fire escape again.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Bannon

[TaurusRose]

15 hours ago, Erin9 said:

This is the least we’ve seen of Paige in a long time. We actually saw more of Henry. 

And can I just say how fucking nice it was not to see her pinched face constantly?

[Lily H]

39 minutes ago, jjj said:

it was a huge deal in 1987.  I was not working in accounting or finance, but everyone around me was completely shocked at the one-day drop.

I remember that day at the office. I was really young then, so I didn't have any stocks to care about, but I remember lots of my co-workers walking around the office like nauseated zombies, just sick at the thought of all the money they'd just lost. I am kind of surprised there was not one mention of it on the show -- it really was a big deal at the time.

And they must be trying to extract the Chicago illegal, which would be difficult. I remember now that when Elizabeth told Philip she was going to miss Thanksgiving at Stan's, she said she had to do it to help one of their own. She sounded really impassioned, not like she was just going off to kill someone.

[jrlr]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, Paige could end up in purple shroud, wearing white tennis shoes, guzzling the kool aid, as the comet Hale-Bopp approaches.

LOL - if only!  

[TaurusRose]

16 hours ago, jjj said:

Apparently, you can say "fuck" twice, once as a verb, once as a swear word.  

I guess I watch way too much streamingTV, and am totally desensitized to the word, because I didn’t even notice.

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

I think I missed something. An illegal flipped in Chicago. Elizabeth told to 'rescue' that guy-Claudia wants to shut him up?

Also E working the intern in blonde hair. Would she eventually remind him of Paige?

The illegals paid for stuff in cash-helloooo

The illegal didn't flip.  One of the KGB undercover Intelligence Officers (like Phil and Liz) recruited an agent (like a Martha.)  The FBI did their due diligence, found him, and he "broke in 5 minutes" telling him about the lover he'd shared intel with (the "Philip" of Chicago.)  The FBI is now following the Chicago KGB guy, watching and learning the trade craft used, where the cars are, how they were purchased, whom he meets with, all of it.  That has given them clues to busting other illegals in other cities.  The DC FBI knows they have illegals, so they will use all that to try to find their own in DC.  The KGB guy in Chicago finally noticed the tail.  Elizabeth is there to get him back to Russia, if possible.

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I thought Claudia said to GET HIM OUT of there. Hmm....but, maybe that was code word for kill him.  I'm confused. 

No, of course not, they want to rescue him.  They certainly don't want him interrogated though.  When Claudia said he was part of the "Mexico" thing, I assume she knows that because she was by-passed by her regular contact with Center again, just as she was with Elizabeth.  So, that tells Elizabeth that they guy will have a suicide pill as well, can not be captured alive.  Would she kill him if needed?  Yes.  Just as she would kill herself, but she certainly doesn't want to do that.

6 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I think Phillip is going to Chicago to stop Elizabeth, and to save her.  She is off the rails and he knows it. Maybe his message to Oleg was to warn him of what's going on. 

Does Elizabeth really think that kid is going to be into her that much?  She's over playing that by a lot. 

Philip knows, from his conversation with Henry about the phone call, that Elizabeth may die in this op.  He is going to try to make sure that doesn't happen.  The tricky part is, he sent that coded message to Oleg before he spoke to Henry, and after two fights with Elizabeth.  He may be regretting that message now, we shall see.

Elizabeth, as someone else said, approached the kid sexually first.  He didn't bite.  She moved on to money next, the offer of a job that would get him out of boring Georgia working with his dad.  SOP for KGB or CIA or FBI agents, try one way, try another, try blackmail after that, etc.

6 hours ago, jjj said:

 

No, the illegal did NOT flip, but was under surveillance.  An engineer at the device company gave up all the information about the illegal.  And this illegal must not have the P/E skills with wigs if the company engineer knew the whole cover story.  

Exactly!

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Stan’s speech was a little much but it served to purposes.  It was a functional American paranoid view of a coming peace talk served unknowningly to Russian spies and it served as a believable reasoning  to getting Stan back into the game.   He was always a reasonable voice but now he may be just as much a true believer as Elizabeth is.

It was OTT.  It didn't bother me quite as much as everyone else, because, it's Stan.  He's been after the illegals forever, it's been his obsession, they are finally on the brink of busting all of them.  It JUST happened, he was just pulled back into CI because he's always been the FBI agent most interested in pulling out all the stops to catch them.  They are working against his country, the country that is celebrated on Thanksgiving day.  He was doing an "I'm thankful for the good old USA" which was fine, but then his obsession, happiness that progress was finally being made on his pet project, and righteous anger took over a bit and led to the "we will protect it from those evil people who want to do us harm." happened.

6 hours ago, teddysmom said:

 

And then when she shows up on the subway I'm thinking "take it down a notch, E".  Even tho she used a different tack and said she works for a company that does consulting for Nunn, does she not think this kid is smart enough to check with Nunn's office? 

Her actions are more desperate now because they are on such a short timeline, and she's wearing a suicide pill on her neck.  Philip bailed on the Kimmy plot as well.  Rash?  Certainly, but I get it, she can't wait on this, for the part Claudia and Arkady are backing, as well as for the part the Coup anti-Gorbachev forces are backing.  She's trapped in a nightmare, and knows she's most likely dead either way, she's being rash.

5 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I think she was looking for his biggest vulnerability. Start with sex  - she flirts and he's mildly interested but not enough. Move on to money - she's now a consultant who might be able to help him get a job. Will he take that bait? 

It would be horrible for all involved if she ends up deciding she needs to use Paige as bait. Paige would be thrilled to be involved. But then Elizabeth would be pimping out her daughter for 'the cause'. I think she'd be disgusted with herself. 

Yes, she's following a normal script, try one thing, then try another.  Maybe he needs his teeth fixed?  ;)

She wouldn't involve Paige, she knows Paige can't do it well enough, if Paige were more competent?  I think she'd do it in a heartbeat.

4 hours ago, Mumbles said:

I love the show and all, but part of me thinks if it ends up that the Jennings' downfall is the result of the FBI catching and cracking an unrelated Soviet agent in another city whom we've never heard of before, it would be a cheap ending. I am keeping my mind open that there's more going on and the writers have a plan (for example they mentioned the Russian priest).

When Claudia was walking in the park with the head scarf and the thick wool coat and the dour expression I thought how stereotypically "Soviet" she looked.

As @sistermagpie said, it's not unrelated at all, Elizabeth's actions helped this happen.  However, I'd also like to say that it seems VERY realistic to me, that's how the FBI works, find a crack, follow it, detail by detail, until they blow a case open.  The priest is one of those details.

Yes, she really did!  That said, it's the 80's and many older women still held on to their 50's look, which often included headscarves tied that way. 

4 hours ago, Dev F said:

The purpose of those scenes was a little more specific this week, though. It was about him bristling at the idea that his son would have to go off on his own and work in a tannery because he was a failure, which contributed to him deciding that he couldn't let Liz go off on a dangerous mission on her own because he let her down so badly.

That's not the way I saw it, at least not the part about letting Liz "go off on a dangerous mission."  I really think that Philip figured out, the MOMENT Henry told him about the odd phone call from mom, and how sad she was?  That Elizabeth was saying goodbye to her own child, that she wanted a moment of a normal conversation for him to look back on after she died.  Philip knows that Henry is emotionally astute, or "tuned in" in EST/Forum speak.  He trusted that, and realized that Elizabeth knew this mission might end in her death.

He didn't want his wife dead, no matter how much of a bitch she's been.  He went to try to stop that from happening, if he could.

3 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Even the biggest horn dog can get creeped out by an overly-aggressive woman, especially if it appears that she was following him. He can simply be a wise, cautious, bright young man that wasn't particularly interested in having a quickie with that woman. I can't imagine that he won't reappear again because we spent a lot of time with him for no pay off. Hopefully, he lives to see the next day.

I think he'll be back, in one way or another.  Perhaps he does report the woman to Nunn or to security.  This may be one of those times Elizabeth, in her haste, didn't properly prepare or cover her own ass.  There was no time to scope the kid out, and plan an "in" with him.  As I said above, she's desperate and running out of time here.  She's being sloppy, not because she'd doesn't know how to not be sloppy, but because the need is immediate.

3 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

It was literally an excuse to fan service a mail robot appearance. More wasted time from the writers, who seem to have completely lost sight of how tight these final ten episodes needed to be; they should have exhausted all the time-wasting instincts out of their system in season five. It's like they just can help but stick something in there that serves no purpose. I felt the same with the small talk standing at the FBI's post-Thanksgiving pot luck. 

It was, and that was my first reaction as well.  Then I realized that they used the scene pretty well, and it was short.  Stan had blown up at CI in front of his current co-workers.  Aderholt told him to let it out privately NOW if he must because he certainly didn't want that kind of shit said in front of his own team.  Stan pulled it back together.  It worked for me.

3 hours ago, jjj said:

 

Basically, Aderholt/FBI is checking every cash-only sale of cars in the region, going back ten years.  And I'm not sure even that would catch the Jennings!  FBI would have to find the actual car and watch it, and they can't do that for a pile of cars.  The garage is a much more fruitful line of investigation, because there are so many fewer of them, and the garages are not mobile!

They don't have to find the cars.  Finding one would be nice, but they said they are also looking for registration names, because the same names may have been used on prepaid utility bills at safe houses, etc.  It's like tugging on a loose string on a sweater, pretty soon, you will unravel the whole thing.  That's the bulk of Intelligence work really, painstakingly going over small details until you nail the foes.  It's boring, time consuming, and important work, made much easier by computers now of course.

2 hours ago, Lily H said:

 

And I'm still not clear on exactly what Elizabeth and Marilyn are intending to do in Chicago (that apparently has such a limited chance of success). Rescue him? Killing him seems more likely, even though the damage has already been done, but wouldn't they be able to come up with a good plan to pull that off?

As above.  Rescue him.  He IS the Chicago version of Philip and Elizabeth.  Now, Elizabeth may know he must be killed rather than captured if things don't work out, because he's part of the Gorbachev plot.  If he can't get to his pill, or doesn't use it?  She may have to kill him.  That's the very last thing she would want to do though, kill a fellow soldier.

2 hours ago, shura said:

And he is not working on the Mexico job, Claudia is mistaken about that. He is working to get the sensor needed for the Dead Hand development, while Elizabeth's Mexico job is about thwarting Gorbachev and preventing a deal that would scrap Dead Hand in exchange for some US concessions. So the guy may not even have the cyanide pill.

Just like Elizabeth?  He's doing both.  Claudia probably know that, because she was bypassed again, notified, but not read into the Gorbachev coup plot.  OR Claudia is in on it, and simply lying to Elizabeth about that, which would be very smart and logical.

[Glade]

My interest was piqued by the fact that the male Chicago S seduced another man as a source; something we certainly never saw Elizabeth or Phillip do (though Phillip was forced to sleep with that creepy old guy as part of his training, so I guess it wasn't out of the question.)  Coupling this with Henry's vagueness about having a girlfriend makes me think this will turn into a parallel where Henry actually has a boyfriend.

I thought that the center identified sources that the S's would then go after, but the way that Elizabeth announced her mission to Claudia sort of made it seem that she had just done it all on her own and was like 'by the way...'  I guess it makes sense that if Elizabeth is so sloppy that she's exposed the entire directorate S program to the fbi, that Claudia and the center have also been incredibly lax--perhaps because the KGB is divided into different factions, like the Jennings family/marriage is.  But how is Elizabeth going to offer him employment, is she going to create an entire consulting firm out of thin air?  With Claudia acting as her boss, and Paige as a secretary?

I was surprised that there was no Matthew at thanksgiving, the actor wasn't even available to do a cameo?  And unlike Elizabeth, he wasn't even given a ridiculously fake explanation for why he wasn't there.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Glade

[Umbelina]

Mathew was probably with his mother, as I would expect him to be.

Henry isn't gay.  Gay boys and men do not hide photos of their neighbor's wife in a bikini, or have crushes on hot young female science teachers.

Elizabeth is being less careful because she's desperate at this point, and on a strict time clock.  She's also completely burned out. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Glade said:

My interest was piqued by the fact that the male Chicago S seduced another man as a source; something we certainly never saw Elizabeth or Phillip do (though Phillip was forced to sleep with that creepy old guy as part of his training, so I guess it wasn't out of the question.)  Coupling this with Henry's vagueness about having a girlfriend makes me think this will turn into a parallel where Henry actually has a boyfriend.

I think they've done way too much stuff about Henry being attracted to women to say he's gay (and he wouldn't just have a boyfriend in 1987--much more homophobic time, as we saw in the FBI scene). I think it was on one hand just a throwaway line of casual dialogue, one that called back to how Stan and Henry originally talked about sex. But it was also looping back to the problems with the Jennings and how both Henry and Philip were trying to understand Elizabeth. Henry's got his whole life in order (unlike Philip) but he still can't figure out the romance thing. 

Meanwhile Stan's wife remains a mystery to all of us because she still seems like somebody hired to impersonate a wife.

9 minutes ago, Glade said:

I guess it makes sense that if Elizabeth is so sloppy that she's exposed the entire directorate S program to the fbi, that Claudia and the center have also been incredibly lax--perhaps because the KGB is divided into different factions, like the Jennings family/marriage is.

It's pretty in character for Elizabeth to have such tunnel vision she's leaving other people vulnerable right and left. To her the world's ending soon anyway. But along with the time issue I think her emotions are meant to be making things difficult as well. She's so angry and so re-committed to being strong at all times because she feels everyone's abandoned her that she's dealing with everything aggressively. 

When Philip refused to do the Kimmy thing I found myself thinking of Princess Leia in Star Wars saying, "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." Part of that would of course be desperation since her time is running out and she's convinced herself that she's saving Russia here (she never seems to have considered that maybe it's not a tragedy if she just lets Gorbachev run the negotiations without her interference).

But it seems like there should also be a problem with her having lost her partner that balanced her and had different skills. We've seen Elizabeth work plenty of jobs where she had a softer touch; it's not that she's incapable of such a thing at all. But left on her own she's really retreated back into her own coping mechanisms, which are aggressive and strong. 

It also just occurred to me that one other thing that's consistent since the first episode of the season is that for all Elizabeth claims that Philip's EST stuff is bullshit (she'll just let the feelings fester!) he remains the only person she's not putting on a front with a lot of the time. She currently seems incapable of letting her softer feelings come out too much (although she did a bit in this ep with Henry without really meaning to so much) but Philip is still a handy punching bag. In fact, it's nice that while she wanted to say good-bye to Henry she possibly was looking forward to dying with her last words to Philip being about how he sucked and she was going to die because he didn't give a shit.

Yet another reason why to me it seems like Philip might very likely die.

12 minutes ago, Glade said:

I was surprised that there was no Matthew at thanksgiving, the actor wasn't even available to do a cameo?  And unlike Elizabeth, he wasn't even given a ridiculously fake explanation for why he wasn't there.

Matthew probably wouldn't ever be at Thanksgiving with them. He'd be with his mother. If she's still with that same guy then Matthew lived with him for years.

[Moose135]

3 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I cannot believe that Philip not only fired Stavos but did it BEFORE the holidays! He couldn't wait until after the new year? I guess this illustrates how Philip is "all in" with regards to capitalism--first firing Stavos before the holidays and then his reasoning for choosing the people he fired was that they were not "pulling their weight."

One company I worked at for many years laid off so many people in November and December over the years that we started calling it the "Home for the Holidays" program.

[Chaos Theory]

Just when Philip thinks he is out....

When all is said and done I can see the only ones left standing being Henry and The Mail Robot.  

[Umbelina]

In responding to that last comment on my post above, I realized that's an interesting question.

IS Claudia in on the Gorbachev coup plot?

She could easily be lying to Elizabeth to cover her own ass should Elizabeth be caught and questioned by pro-Gorbachev forces, should the coup fail (which we all know it will.)  She could also handle the guy in Chicago, and only know he's involved in the "Mexico thing" as she calls it, because the message came through her again, but not through the normal channels.

Even if she isn't in on it?  I'd bet excellent money that she's already figured out the basics of it, that some oppose what Gorbachev is doing and will take him out if needed or they want to.  She has a good read on things, and she's been through much worse many times before, she's also recently spent time in the USSR.  She's doing pretty well at covering her ass either way, as I would expect of Claudia.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[qtpye]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's like the opposite of season 1. Elizabeth still won't just ask him to come, so this time he'll just come. Of course, he'll also tell on her to Oleg, but that's just going to Arkady their boss anyway and he should know about this stuff! I know Elizabeth hates his EST therapy bullshit, but I believe Philip is doing what would be called "all the emotional work."

Henry's home for 5 minutes and picks up on everything Paige still isn't aware of--I mean, she gets it when her parents fight but she clearly hasn't noticed that the fighting is different now. (I suspect she thinks she's more central to their conflict than she is.) I like how in this ep both Philip and Henry became aware of something bad going on while Paige's reaction was all about whether she can go to Chicago too because she's a spy, so the kid "in the know" was completely outside the family drama. She thinks everything comes back to spying and that spying is always kind of cool so a good thing. Elizabeth told her it wouldn't look right if she left too but of course she never had any intention of taking her no matter what.

Henry not only figured out that Philip's rage was more about Elizabeth than work but knew a suicide good-bye phone call when he heard it. He heard that his mother was sad the same way he hears it when he talks to his father. (Also nice that he acknowledged that he never speaks to his mother so just her talking to him at all was a red flag.) He'll probably be happy that Philip's going to follow her. But yikes about what he might say while he's gone! He passed Philip an important message in this ep.

Also I liked that he tricked his mom asking for a cigarette. It's a little thing, but it showed how Elizabeth was way to eager to make him an adult there and is disconnected from him and I like that he, like Philip, noticed that her smoking isn't normal. One thing clear in this ep is that Henry, unlike Paige, is basically independent. If his parents gets caught tomorrow he doesn't need any substitute parent, really.

Also no surprise that Henry responded to his money problems by finding ways to solve his money problems. Nice that although Philip was uncomfortable with being talked about that way he didn't refuse his help. He basically had Henry telling him he was a failure just like Elizabeth was, only in a nicer way. And both of them were finding other people to help them--that's got to be tough for Philip who's so driven by people needing him. No wonder he was inspired to really try to help Oleg. Still, he didn't put his pride above the practical advantages. The school money storyline remains stupid, though. Oh, there's "a few more" scholarships the top student and future hockey captain can apply for in his senior year while he's getting into Harvard? Great! Do any of those cover his tuition or do they all also require work at the tannery?

It's good to know that Elizabeth's trail of bodies is what led the FBI to this guy and therefore the Illegals. They'd still probably be shocked that that was all one person doing all that damage. But still, there's something satisfying in the way she's walking around acting like she's the only one who cares about the USSR when it's literally her and her sloppy, bloody secret mission that bagged an Illegal. Not just the guy himself but a lot of their tradecraft. I hope it gets laid out to her that she single handedly blew the whole network if that happens.

I honestly thought Marilyn was going to walk out on her too when it was so clear this probably wouldn't work. It seemed like it would be symbolic of everybody just saying look, you're crazy and alone. Marilyn will probably be overjoyed to see Philip (and terrified that the knock on the door means "Julie" has arrived to help...) Marilyn's not a real nurse either, is she? Does this woman have any actual medical personnel helping her in her last moments?

Oh, and another fascinating thing is how they again did that thing with Elizabeth and Philip where they seem to be playing these classic misogynist scripts with the genders reversed. First in the premiere there was Elizabeth's line how she knew Philip "loved to talk" like he was a housewife bothering his husband after a long day at work with silly woman talk. This time it was the toxic stew where she softened Philip up by pretending to feel loving, then pimped him out to Kimmy knowing how long he'd worked to keep that relationship non-sexual and then accused him of being a whore who just wanted to fuck her. (You can tell this was an episode full of tension because they said fuck twice!) Not that that blow landed because Philip knows who he is, but her desperation to believe that he represented selfishness personified was pretty extreme. Especially after her tiny moments of clarity sketching the TV and talking to Henry. In that moment she did want to talk to the normal kid who would try to cheer her up. But again, she can't show weakness by just asking Philip to help her. She has to shame him into doing it and disparage everything about him that isn't that.

God, Paige's jeans were unflattering. I know her butt isn't huge but damn if it didn't look that way in those jeans.

I would have been so uncomfortable during Stan's speech at Thanksgiving. And I'm not a Soviet spy.

I doubt they know anything about it. If Elizabeth knows next to nothing about the kid the KGB knows nothing. They've just lost interest for some reason. Though I guess the theme in this ep was that Philip just felt like he was failing everybody. Elizabeth told him he only cared about himself but he was thinking about how he wasn't able to keep his employees employed, wasn't able to keep Henry in school, wasn't even able to keep the toy car on the road. Ironically spying was the only place where he seemed on balance in the episode--specifically spying for Oleg.

Everyone was essentially telling him that his only worth was as a spy. He was rejected as a boss, father and husband. I wonder if this is another thing Elizabeth winds up feeling she destroyed. Like she got what she wanted without having to ask, and where will that lead? Meanwhile she still apparently hasn't even thought a little bit about how great this secret mission is.

Gee, you know what would be neat? If we maybe had some context for how he got into this job in the first place, given that he mentioned having grown up believing that working and protecting your family was the prime directive and yet somehow wound up completely cut off from them...

 

17 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’m trying to decide what I think of Henry. 

When it comes to his goals, he sure is a good planner, calculated, good at playing every possible angle, and self interested in his approach. I’m sure he’ll be fine. But he seems a bit cold when it comes to what he wants- and what he’ll do to get it, like talk about his dad’s business problems. Not that I ever have bought his all consuming need to go to boarding school. (There are so many things I’d like Philip to talk about and spend his limited time on - and financial problems, the travel agency, and boarding school don’t make my list.)

At the same time, he does care and picks up on his parents moods and problems. He is concerned and confused. Being away from home probably allows him to see things a bit clearer now too. He’s actually in a better position than Paige to see it because she’s been there the whole time. 

Now that Henry’s home we’re back to the emergency phone calls. 

The one holiday we see on this show would be thanksgiving.lol Stan’s speech was too much for me. And i’m not a Russian spy. 

As big of a betrayal as this will be for Stan, they didn’t go looking for him. He moved in. It evolved from there. 

 

10 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Some random responses to the above post:

I was impressed with Henry's resourcefulness. Rather than sulk or whine, he is trying to find ways to stay at St Eds. Is it feasible? Possibly but who cares. I think the point is exactly as @sistermagpie says...if the time comes, he is close to being independent of his parents. Not entirely but he is not a clinging vine.

The tuition story line is dumb but it is a reflection of Philip's character arc. Over-analyzing it is frustrating.

Poor Erica - one nurse draws, the other rubs her feet. Neither are trained professionals.

Paige's jeans - that was my first thought, too. What a horror! And I'm sure that I had a similar pair back in the day.

Stan's speech: THAT was bad writing. It seemed like he was never going to stop talking. It wasn't particularly eloquent. It sounded like he was giving a speech to a incoming class of agents. And then to close it with, "let's eat" while Renee looked at him adoringly. Ack! I like Noah Emmerich but he couldn't pull that off.

That is an excellent analysis above of Philip this season, right down to his inability to keep the car on the tracks. His worth - in his eyes - is as a spy. I don't believe that his journey to Chicago is for the cause or the agent. It is for Elizabeth and for his family.

When all is said and done with this show, the character of Philip Jennings will rank among the best anti-heroes in current day TV (along with Walter White and Tony Soprano). And can MR please win an Emmy?! His entire physical presence when he was telling Elizabeth that he wouldn't go thru with the Kimmie mission was mesmerizing.

 

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Elizabeth is such an evil woman.  I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she intentionally sounded all depressed to Henry knowing that Henry would go talk to Philip about it.   In an effort to get Philip motivated to help her out.  I don't recall Elizabeth being this whiny, ever.

 

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Great episode.  I'm glad to see the show regaining its form in the past two weeks.

The cold opening and the last 12 minutes were particularly great. 

Henry in one episode once again shows why he's about a thousand times more intelligent and clever than Paige and it makes Philip and Elizabeth look bad every time for not noticing he'd be so good as a spy.  Definitely a really good episode for him.  More Henry and less Paige definitely helped this episode.

Elizabeth is a TERRIBLE mother.  Her relationship with Henry further confirmed this.  I did like that we saw some human moments from her tonight.  Her doubts about the success of the mission, her phone call with Henry.  Of course, fanatic that she is, she won't call off the mission.  Even if there wasn't some self-motivation here with a threat to their identity, I have no doubt that Elizabeth would still choose the mission.  Philip is definitely doing this for her.

Elizabeth is definitely hitting rock bottom if she's stealing leads from Paige.

Glad to see the FBI FINALLY putting two and two together with all these deaths and the illegals investigation in general.

LOL with the mail robot cameo in the elevator with Stan and Aderholt. 

Was that the first F bomb dropped on The Americans tonight?

 

8 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I've struck up brief conversations with  people at movies, or just with strangers in general, standing in line wherever. I would never presume to invade private space in a movie theater and sit next to a young man 20 years younger than me when the theater is barely half full.   Of course, I go to movies at 9:30 in the morning so I can have the theater to myself. 

And then when she shows up on the subway I'm thinking "take it down a notch, E".  Even tho she used a different tack and said she works for a company that does consulting for Nunn, does she not think this kid is smart enough to check with Nunn's office? 

As a shorter woman myself, I hated that Paige had to wear those horrible eighties jeans...they made her look like an Ooompa Loompa. Elizabeth, however, was rocking her stone washed jeans and wig o doom during her Chicago scenes.

One of the unfair things about life is that the person in the relationship that cares less usually has the most power. Phillip might be working against E with Oleg, but he will drop everything if Elizabeth needs him. E must know this as well since she passively aggressively asked him for help when she got a chance.  I sometimes feel that Phillip has spent most of his adult life waiting for scraps of affection that E will throw at him once in a while. 

When I was younger I was a bit of a nerdy film buff. I liked to indulge in my passion by myself and would be extremely annoyed if anyone tried to hit on me at that moment, not that anyone ever did.  

Henry is totally the eighties preppie ideal. I was pretty impressed with him this episode. It is kind of hilarious that Phil knew E was in dire straits because she actually called to talk to her son and ask about his life. I think E is threatened by Henry because he is an independent and intelligent free thinker. This is very different than natural follower Paige who is always looking for E's approval.

[Tetraneutron]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

Henry is totally the eighties preppie ideal. I was pretty impressed with him this episode. It is kind of hilarious that Phil knew E was in dire straits because she actually called to talk to her son and ask about his life. I think E is threatened by Henry because he is an independent and intelligent free thinker. This is very different than natural follower Paige who is always looking for E's approval.

I dodn't see in the show where Elizabeth is remotely, at all, threatened by Henry. She mostly ignores him and has washed her hands of him, in this episode she was amused by him and desperately tried to make an emotional connection with him. If anything, Philip is far more of an independent person than Henry. Philip is going against his culture, country, and training to make an entirely new life for himself, one where he risks getting killed. Henry is basically a male Kimmy with more street smarts. He's the typical All-American kid, 80s version. 

Besides, Elizabeth respects loyalty and duty and doing your job more than anything else. We've seen repeatedly that she sneers at anything that's fun or decadent or frivolous. Of weakness. I think a lot of people here are projecting heavily onto Paige. 

[Chaos Theory]

For the record I met a boyfriend at a movie theater.  I think the movie was The Never Ending Story.   I bummed him for a smoke.  We dated for like five years before we broke up....talk about a never ending story.    

I don't think Henry is being selfish or cold at all in his approach.   What did he do really besides tell a friends father that his own was having financial difficulty?  I think that is the sin that people can't forgive him for.  Other then that he simply did what any other self sufficient person would do.  He looked for scholarships and he looked for a job.  How is any of that the least bit selfish?  

Edited May 3, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[renatae]

I'm a noodge, and I'm totally confused about Gennadi's possession of the hotly desired circuit board. Was he knowingly giving this to the Russians, thus betraying his adopted country? Or does he just pass things along without knowing what they are? I know, dumb question.

[duVerre]

What are the marks/scars/lesions/scrapes on Elizabeth's cheeks? They were there in this episode and in last week's as well. And there they are again, in the previews for "Harvest." Have I missed something obvious? Did she fall and scrape herself and somehow missed I it? Am I paranoid? Have I lost my ever-loving mind? (If not, I have my own sinking feeling about what's happening to her health.) Please help.

Edited May 3, 2018 by duVerre
clarity

[dubbel zout]

19 hours ago, PreviouslyTV said:

YES, EVEN HENRY.

Henry spoke more this episode than the previous five seasons combined, LOL.

18 hours ago, Sader87 said:

Apparently you can say "Fuck!!!" on fx.....

The People vs. OJ Simpson had at least two instances of "motherfucker," so you can say more than "fuck" on FX. Heh.

I had to laugh at the "Houston" phone booth Elizabeth called Henry from, as it looked like the same one Philip used to call Kimmie two episodes ago. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, renatae said:

I'm a noodge, and I'm totally confused about Gennadi's possession of the hotly desired circuit board. Was he knowingly giving this to the Russians, thus betraying his adopted country? Or does he just pass things along without knowing what they are? I know, dumb question.

Gennadi was still a Soviet.  He was letting the FBI xray the contents of his courier pouch, for money, for his wife.  He had no idea what was in it.

[ruby24]

So Stan's a really strong Reagan Republican, huh? I wonder if Dennis is too. If somebody made that kind of toast at a Thanksgiving dinner I was at, my family would have been out the door in two seconds flat, lol.

[qtpye]

35 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I dodn't see in the show where Elizabeth is remotely, at all, threatened by Henry. She mostly ignores him and has washed her hands of him, in this episode she was amused by him and desperately tried to make an emotional connection with him. If anything, Philip is far more of an independent person than Henry. Philip is going against his culture, country, and training to make an entirely new life for himself, one where he risks getting killed. Henry is basically a male Kimmy with more street smarts. He's the typical All-American kid, 80s version. 

Besides, Elizabeth respects loyalty and duty and doing your job more than anything else. We've seen repeatedly that she sneers at anything that's fun or decadent or frivolous. Of weakness. I think a lot of people here are projecting heavily onto Paige. 

Exactly, Henry is more like Phillip and less the true believer that will sacrifice anything for the cause. When Henry asked to bum a smoke and E was about to give him one, you could see how befuddled she was. She might just think Henry is a lost cause or she just does not have enough time to indoctrinate him since she expects to heroically die soon.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

IS Claudia in on the Gorbachev coup plot?

I tend to think she isn't in on it officially, but I still tend to think of her as one of the conspirators because she would totally be in on it if she knew about it. I wouldn't be surprised if she had some clue what it was about, like you say.

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I sometimes feel that Phillip has spent most of his adult life waiting for scraps of affection that E will throw at him once in a while. 

I've honestly thought many times that one of the central things about Philip is that he's very good at living on scraps.

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't think Henry is being selfish or cold at all in his approach.   What did he do really besides tell a friends father that his own was having financial difficulty?  I think that is the sin that people can't forgive him for.  Other then that he simply did what any other self sufficient person would do.  He looked for scholarships and he looked for a job.  How is any of that the least bit selfish?  

Is anyone calling him selfish? Focused on his goals, yes, but that's hardly an unforgivable sin. I would include him in the group of people who are demanding things of Philip and saying he's letting them down because those are just the facts. Philip is supposed to pay Henry's tuition. Henry's trying to take care of it himself if Philip can't but that still involves Philip failing him. Despite the fact that last year when Philip asked if the school was expensive Henry said he could get a scholarship as if that made money no object so Philip couldn't use it to say no.

However, that doesn't mean that Philip would enjoy being put in that position. Nobody would. It's embarrassing. A more toxic guy might have been furious at him. Philip just felt embarrassed and flustered but didn't refuse to talk to the guy because he knows how important the school is to Henry. His priorities are completely in order.

Sometimes I think Philip will actually relieved if they're caught or he dies just because he can wash his hands of the travel agency.

Edited May 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

34 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

I dodn't see in the show where Elizabeth is remotely, at all, threatened by Henry. She mostly ignores him and has washed her hands of him, in this episode she was amused by him and desperately tried to make an emotional connection with him. If anything, Philip is far more of an independent person than Henry. Philip is going against his culture, country, and training to make an entirely new life for himself, one where he risks getting killed. Henry is basically a male Kimmy with more street smarts. He's the typical All-American kid, 80s 

I don’t see Philip going against his country. He’s doing this FOR his country. That’s why he’s helping Oleg. But he is risking everything for it. I doubt that is a concept Henry understands though.  Henry doesn’t seem passionate about much except getting ahead in the world. 

I understood why Aderholt made his blanket statement about the Russians lying and cheating their way through the Summit. But I still wanted to throw something at my TV- since Oleg, Philip and Arkady are risking everything to try and make it a success. 

Henry would feel more typical to me if he wasn’t in boarding school. Nothing typically American about that. Otherwise, yes. 

I don’t think Elizabeth is threatened by Henry either. She doesn’t know how to relate to him. I think one of the saddest scenes of this show ever was her trying to make a connection with him. 

I wish she’d made a similar effort with Philip. But at least she didn’t totally throw him under the bus with Claudia. (Claudia seems pretty dispassionate about everything these days. No fire in her.)

Elizabeth really did want his help on the extraction. She said she wasn’t asking for help... but she was. She said more help would be nice. And Philip knew how dire things were if she called Henry. 

I’ve wondered if Philip sending that note to Oleg will be a problem for him since he’s now helping keep Elizabeth alive/extracting the illegal. At the same time- ANYTHING that gets an illegal caught right now is a problem for everyone. Elizabeth getting killed pursuing this is a problem for Philip/the mission with Oleg. But- it’s hard to say. Depends on what his search revealed and what he said. He spent a lot time deciding exactly what to say. 

It’ll be interesting to see how things go with P/E. He loves her, but I don’t think he’s forgotten what she said to him. And they couldn’t be further apart in terms of their vision of the future of the motherland. Then there’s the pesky little detail of Philip helping Oleg....

[whiporee]

I found myself feeling extremely sorry for both Paige and Henry because they had parents who weren't really parents. Philizabeth had kids as props and had been conditioned in their training to not develop attachments. And yet there were these two kids, with secretive parents who carried beliefs they kept hidden that were completely contradictory to what they had been taught everywhere they turned. It really became clear tonight, that neither Phillip or Elizabeth has any way to actually talk to their son. Henry's whole life -- literally, his whole existence -- has just been one lie after another. Nothing -- nothing at all -- is real. Phillip and his conversation in the car, where the kid is trying to help out his father and Phillip has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of how to respond. Because he sees the kid not as a person but as a prop. The same thing in the slot car place, when Phillip is trying to go through a motion of how a father and son acts together, but he's so frustrated because he has an instinctual love for his child but has no way of actually feeling it or expressing it. Complain all you want -- that's some seriously good writing there. 

if you look at it that way, it explains Paige. She's desperate for parental -- maternal -- approval, except she has a few answers Henry doesn't. She has an explanation to why her parents are the way they are, and she's taking that explanation and trying to adjust her life too incorporate it. It explains why she's been unquestioning about Elizabeth and Claudia's teachings, because she's so desperate to connect. Elizabeth plays on that because she's trained in how to play on people. But, at least to their credit, Philizabeth have avoided "honey potting" their opposite-sex children, even though it would be so easy to do so. So as Elizabeth bonds with Paige by sharing something with her, Phillip has nothing to share with Henry. He can't talk about his childhood; he can't talk about his parents. he can't share ANYTHING at all with his son, not who he is, not who he's been or what he's done. So the kids are just out on an island. Of course Henry attached to Stan; of course he doesn't want to leave school. Those are the only times anyone has actually tried to connect with him. His parents -- through training and experience -- literally CAN't. Again, some seriously great writing there. 

As for Stan's little speech, he gave it after being proven right about the Illegals. he and Alderholt have actual, recent proof that what Stan is saying is true  (It's intriguing how reminiscent of Elizabeth's speech to Phillip Alderholdt's speech to Stan was) and it's not a conceptual threat Stan's talking about. It's a real one, with real dead bodies and real espionage going on all around them. He's on the verge of a major success, and I can see why he's so full of hubris and satisfaction at this moment that he gave a dumb jingoistic speech to his extended family (who he could assume felt much the same way). it was clunky, but intentionally so. Stan would have been exploding with zealotry at that moment. it feels yucky to a lot of us who try to avoid overt MAGA-ism, but at that moment in time and in Stan's life -- at his own Thanksgiving table -- it felt perfectly natural. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by whiporee

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

For the record I met a boyfriend at a movie theater.  I think the movie was The Never Ending Story.   I bummed him for a smoke.  We dated for like five years before we broke up....talk about a never ending story.    

I don't think Henry is being selfish or cold at all in his approach.   What did he do really besides tell a friends father that his own was having financial difficulty?  I think that is the sin that people can't forgive him for.  Other then that he simply did what any other self sufficient person would do.  He looked for scholarships and he looked for a job.  How is any of that the least bit selfish?  

 

That would be my problem with him. Lol  I hated that for Philip. All he needed- another reminder of his financial issues. And to have Henry share the news. Otherwise, Henry’s fine. He’s an interesting contrast to Paige with his clear life goals and strategy for reaching them, his family observations, etc. 

But my feelings about him/his choice to blab are not helped by the fact that I hate all the airtime going to this- finances and boarding school stuff. If this show was lasting longer, sure- but I can think of other things for Philip to talk about. This is not a memorable father/son conversation given that the show is wrapping up. We already knew all of this about Henry from when he applied to begin with. He’s a goal oriented planner. 

And my tolerance for Henry running on about boarding school being the be all end all is limited. Plenty of people are successful without boarding school. I know a number of Ivy Leaguers. Not a boarding school or even private high school for any of them. So- no don’t get it at all. Totally unrelatable too imo. I’m not sure Henry’s done all the necesssary research if that’s what he really thinks. 

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Henry spoke more this episode than the previous five seasons combined, LOL.

The People vs. OJ Simpson had at least two instances of "motherfucker," so you can say more than "fuck" on FX. Heh.

I had to laugh at the "Houston" phone booth Elizabeth called Henry from, as it looked like the same one Philip used to call Kimmie two episodes ago. 

I got a good laugh at summing up Houston as hot. True. Very true. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Erin9

[Glade]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they've done way too much stuff about Henry being attracted to women to say he's gay (and he wouldn't just have a boyfriend in 1987--much more homophobic time, as we saw in the FBI scene). I think it was on one hand just a throwaway line of casual dialogue, one that called back to how Stan and Henry originally talked about sex. But it was also looping back to the problems with the Jennings and how both Henry and Philip were trying to understand Elizabeth. Henry's got his whole life in order (unlike Philip) but he still can't figure out the romance thing. 

I'm gay and I started out thinking I was straight and looking at pictures of women, trying to date girls too, that is very common.  All we've seen is Henry looking at photos of ex-Mrs Beeman and then as I recall last season he had a close friend who was a girl but kept having to tell everyone they were just friends.  So I still think it's a good possibility that he's gay and perhaps covertly seeing someone at school.

[Umbelina]

I like Henry.  He wasn't being selfish.  Selfish would be throwing a fit and expecting his father to pay for the school.

Instead, he was doing work himself, he's applying for additional scholarships, he's found a summer job that pays well, very well for a kid, that will be hard work, and he came up with a lead for his dad to sell more travel.  He put in 3 years there, doing his best, and he's right, it won't mean much if he doesn't spend his last year there and graduate.  Hell his job even has room and board, so Philip will save money on the food for a growing teenage boy all summer too.

Why should Henry suffer and sit silently and accept it, instead of working his ass off to find solutions?  His dad is still driving his fancy new car, complete with removable tape deck and car phone, they still have a huge house (supposedly, though we know it's just a triplex) and only two people are living there now, consider downsizing a bit there Philip.  We know he can't because of the basement spy set up, but Henry doesn't know that, and indeed, didn't demand that his father do either, sell the house and car for something more reasonable and let him graduate.  THAT would be a selfish kid.

As far as Henry being robbed of normal parents?  Maybe, but really, what is normal?  Not all parents hover around constantly and micromanage their kids.  Henry's grown up just fine.  Both kids did well in school, Henry had lots of friends, he's good at hockey, which began when he played with his dad.  In most families both parents work, even back then, so having family dinners most nights, as Elizabeth did, was even kind of a rarity back then.  Adults are busy, worried, distracted, have issues no matter what jobs they have, and teenagers are usually pretty busy and uninterested in spending a ton of time with mom and dad anyway.

I agree that the lies are an issue for any kid.  However, I disagree that Henry is the only kid around with parents that lie to them. 

There is absolutely nothing that indicates Henry is gay.  Nothing, zilch, nada.  If he were gay?  He would probably tell his dad, he's a pretty open kid, and he does have a good relationship with his father now.

ETA

Hell Paige is going to school very near by and she doesn't have a job, make her little ass move back home, and stop paying her rent, make her get a scholarship for that matter.  Again, Henry didn't demand any of those things, but why hasn't Philip considered that option, why does Paige even need her own apartment?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t see Philip going against his country. He’s doing this FOR his country. That’s why he’s helping Oleg. But he is risking everything for it. I doubt that is a concept Henry understands though.  Henry doesn’t seem passionate about much except getting ahead in the world. 

That's really interested to think about it that way. Because I've been trying to think of there's any ways that Henry represents Capitalism or something in some way and I couldn't really come up with anything. I mean, yes, he's basically taking care of himself and his ambitions as a priority, but he also shows care for his family.

But in a way, maybe the division here is that Henry actually is what Philip was making an effort to be by trying to be American. Particularly here:

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Henry would feel more typical to me if he wasn’t in boarding school. Nothing typically American about that. Otherwise, yes. 

It's not typical American in general but it is a very specific type of American that Henry is making himself into--the type who goes to elite prep schools and travels in money circles. That's why I said earlier that I didn't think anyone could talk about Henry working in the tannery as Henry having a menial job. He's getting a high paying blue collar job through his connection to the son of the company's owner who works there every summer, probably because his father considers it good for his character. Henry has connections to rich people and understands that money begets money. The guy he's talking to is good at business and probably loved telling Henry that he could give his small potatoes father some advice because he's had failed business ventures--that to me says this guy probably has plenty of money to fail. Maybe he's truly self-made, maybe he's more born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

Anyway, there is something really interesting in that contrast where not only was Henry raised in such a way to easily move into that world, but he finds it satisfying in ways that Philip doesn't. Henry likes being in the world of money and power and the elite and wants to stay there. He's following the standard path to success with connections.

Philip actually *is* a Socialist or Communist--not sure what exactly to call the Soviet system. People often liked to say he was really a Capitalist or was becoming one but I don't think that's true. Trying to act like one has just proved to him how much it isn't him. This is a guy who has studied different systems, after all. When he talked to Stan about why it was always better to grow, he knew how that applied to Capitalism.

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t think Elizabeth is threatened by Henry either. She doesn’t know how to relate to him. I think one of the saddest scenes of this show ever was her trying to make a connection with him. 

Yeah, I think she just doesn't know how to talk to him. She never has, but now it's become impossible. In the past she relied on physical presence to keep the relationship going. Once she gave her blessing to boarding school more effort was required and she didn't give it.

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I’ve wondered if Philip sending that note to Oleg will be a problem for him since he’s now helping keep Elizabeth alive/extracting the illegal. 

It's funny, but that never occurred to me. I figured if anything the Chicago trip would just give him a chance to get more info since he probably still doesn't know exactly what Elizabeth is doing. He did know Elizabeth was trying to get info from Breland fast, for instance.

39 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

It’ll be interesting to see how things go with P/E. He loves her, but I don’t think he’s forgotten what she said to him. And they couldn’t be further apart in terms of their vision of the future of the motherland. Then there’s the pesky little detail of Philip helping Oleg....

It's weird, but I feel like on some level Elizabeth would like that he was helping Oleg. Yes, he's working against her but he's working. He hasn't stopped caring. He's risking his life in the shadows just like they're supposed to do. Of course he's working against her, which could be the deal breaker. But I feel like the biggest issue for her now is the contempt at him not being involved at all. Especially since I agree, he's doing this *for* his country. He's not actually settled into life as an America entrepreneur.

26 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I found myself feeling extremely sorry for both Paige and Henry because they had parents who weren't really parents. Philizabeth had kids as props and had been conditioned in their training to not develop attachments.

There is no evidence of this on the show, imo. Quite the opposite. The children have always been children and they have always been real parents. Elizabeth has always been conflicted about that and tried to limit her attachment (she's not the only mother to do that) but Philip has always been all-in as a father.

26 minutes ago, whiporee said:

It really became clear tonight, that neither Phillip or Elizabeth has any way to actually talk to their son. Henry's whole life -- literally, his whole existence -- has just been one lie after another. Nothing -- nothing at all -- is real. Phillip and his conversation in the car, where the kid is trying to help out his father and Phillip has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of how to respond. Because he sees the kid not as a person but as a prop.

I do not see this happening at all. I'm not sure how you think a "real" father would respond to a kid telling him that he's having conversations about his father's business failures with his rich friends' parents, but it would probably look a lot like that. That entire conversation was pure father/son. Philip has never seen Henry as a prop and he certainly wasn't seeing him as one there.

26 minutes ago, whiporee said:

The same thing in the slot car place, when Phillip is trying to go through a motion of how a father and son acts together, but he's so frustrated because he has an instinctual love for his child but has no way of actually feeling it or expressing it.

Philip was acting like any father who's got secret frustrations that he doesn't want to show in front of his kid. (Dustin Hoffman has a similar "Fuck her!" moment in Kramer vs. Kramer.) He has no problem expressing or feeling love for Henry. He's always been very affectionate with him. His problems in the scene were due to the very things Henry thought they were due to--Elizabeth. If Philip always acted that way with him there'd be nothing to notice. Stan and Henry do not have more connection just because Stan can talk about his childhood--which he barely does. Lots of fathers and sons just share interests like sports and games and hanging out together without Dad revealing himself that much. Stan actually had more problems with his own son than Philip's having with Henry.

Elizabeth is clearly trying to parent the kids exactly the way she was parented. It doesn't really work with Henry but with Paige it's all about being her own mother while also trying to correct things that made her unhappy. Iow, she's like any other parent. Only she's also got the Cause. She doesn't want to be separated from Paige so wants to blend being a mother and a handler.

Parenting, it seems to me, has always been one of the main focuses of the show right behind the marriage. Philip and Elizabeth are shown being parents all the time--and good ones, according to the showrunners. They relate to their kids no more like props than any other parents on television. You might as well say Lucy and Ricky Ricardo had no connection to Little Ricky, imo.

22 minutes ago, Glade said:

I'm gay and I started out thinking I was straight and looking at pictures of women, trying to date girls too, that is very common.  All we've seen is Henry looking at photos of ex-Mrs Beeman and then as I recall last season he had a close friend who was a girl but kept having to tell everyone they were just friends.  So I still think it's a good possibility that he's gay and perhaps covertly seeing someone at school.

If he was a real person, of course. But as a character there's absolutely nothing to indicate that he's covering up anything about his sex life. In fact, he's more often been shown hiding his interest in girls.

Edited May 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I found myself feeling extremely sorry for both Paige and Henry because they had parents who weren't really parents. Philizabeth had kids as props and had been conditioned in their training to not develop attachments. And yet there were these two kids, with secretive parents who carried beliefs they kept hidden that were completely contradictory to what they had been taught everywhere they turned. It really became clear tonight, that neither Phillip or Elizabeth has any way to actually talk to their son. Henry's whole life -- literally, his whole existence -- has just been one lie after another. Nothing -- nothing at all -- is real. Phillip and his conversation in the car, where the kid is trying to help out his father and Phillip has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of how to respond. Because he sees the kid not as a person but as a prop. The same thing in the slot car place, when Phillip is trying to go through a motion of how a father and son acts together, but he's so frustrated because he has an instinctual love for his child but has no way of actually feeling it or expressing it. Complain all you want -- that's some seriously good writing there. 

if you look at it that way, it explains Paige. She's desperate for parental -- maternal -- approval, except she has a few answers Henry doesn't. She has an explanation to why her parents are the way they are, and she's taking that explanation and trying to adjust her life too incorporate it. It explains why she's been unquestioning about Elizabeth and Claudia's teachings, because she's so desperate to connect. Elizabeth plays on that because she's trained in how to play on people. But, at least to their credit, Philizabeth have avoided "honey potting" their opposite-sex children, even though it would be so easy to do so. So as Elizabeth bonds with Paige by sharing something with her, Phillip has nothing to share with Henry. He can't talk about his childhood; he can't talk about his parents. he can't share ANYTHING at all with his son, not who he is, not who he's been or what he's done. So the kids are just out on an island. Of course Henry attached to Stan; of course he doesn't want to leave school. Those are the only times anyone has actually tried to connect with him. His parents -- through training and experience -- literally CAN't. Again, some seriously great writing there. 

As for Stan's little speech, he gave it after being proven right about the Illegals. he and Alderholt have actual, recent proof that what Stan is saying is true  (It's intriguing how reminiscent of Elizabeth's speech to Phillip Alderholdt's speech to Stan was) and it's not a conceptual threat Stan's talking about. It's a real one, with real dead bodies and real espionage going on all around them. He's on the verge of a major success, and I can see why he's so full of hubris and satisfaction at this moment that he gave a dumb jingoistic speech to his extended family (who he could assume felt much the same way). it was clunky, but intentionally so. Stan would have been exploding with zealotry at that moment. it feels yucky to a lot of us who try to avoid overt MAGA-ism, but at that moment in time and in Stan's life -- at his own Thanksgiving table -- it felt perfectly natural. 

The crappy writing lies in the fact that Henry has been a nonentity for the vast majority of this show.

[Cardie]

6 hours ago, Lily H said:

And I'm still not clear on exactly what Elizabeth and Marilyn are intending to do in Chicago (that apparently has such a limited chance of success).

They are trying to exfiltrate the burned illegal, probably back to the USSR. But he is under heavy FBI surveillance, so the chance of intercepting him without getting caught is low.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Cardie

[dubbel zout]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

His problems in the scene were due to the very things Henry thought they were due to--Elizabeth.

Philip was being a very good father by not involving Henry in his (Philip's) problems with Elizabeth. 

[Auntie Anxiety]

My favorite exchange in this episode:

Elizabeth: "I have to go to Houston."

Paige: "Do you want me to come with you?"

Elizabeth: "Absolutely NOT."

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie

I’d actually had the same thought about  Elizabeth: she’s so angry because she thinks Philip doesn’t care anymore, I could see her being happy on some level at the realization that he does. He is risking his life for their country. He is doing his job-his way. He’s not fulfilled by being some American travel agent. He’s not as Americanized as she thinks he is- as she has always thought. 

That is a good point about Henry being typically American. And certainly different from Philip. 

Side note: the show runners keep saying Paige has a Russian soul. I have NO IDEA what that means, especially in the context of what I’m seeing out of her. 

[Erin9]

18 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Philip was being a very good father by not involving Henry in his (Philip's) problems with Elizabeth. 

Yes. He was. 

I’ve always thought Philip has tried hard to be a good father to his kids. He’s tried to be involved in their lives, encouraged them to pursue their own interests even when they are contrary to his own ( ie- with church and boarding school- He accepted both.), he wanted the centre out of their lives, tried to get Paige to see the reality of the spy world.....

It would be nice for Philip to get some credit for something.....he almost never seems to get any. 

[dubbel zout]

I think Philip genuinely wanted to have kids, whereas for Elizabeth they're merely part of her cover as a typical American woman. She doesn't hate them—she might even love them—but they're a means to an end.

[Erin9]

6 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Philip genuinely wanted to have kids, whereas for Elizabeth they're merely part of her cover as a typical American woman. She doesn't hate them—she might even love them—but they're a means to an end.

I wouldn’t go that far. She loves them. That’s what that phone call with Henry was all about. Part of her trying so hard to turn Paige into a spy is because she wants a bond with her (and the centre wants it- fair enough). 

However, Philip sees family as a higher priority than Elizabeth does. Always has. 

[jjj]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile Stan's wife remains a mystery to all of us because she still seems like somebody hired to impersonate a wife.

This is so perfect, and perfectly describes why it seems she has been inserted into the scenery for a purpose. 

Maybe the baby anvils (that is, anvils about having children, Stan and Renee) is to set up an end story with Henry settled with Stan and child-loving Renee.  But I have been on Team Red Renee since the first moment I saw her angling for Stan at the gym.  (Not unlike what we saw with Elizabeth at the movie theatre and Metro this week: "WHAT a coincidence that we are in the same place at the same time!") 

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Philip genuinely wanted to have kids, whereas for Elizabeth they're merely part of her cover as a typical American woman. She doesn't hate them—she might even love them—but they're a means to an end.

 

16 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I wouldn’t go that far. She loves them. That’s what that phone call with Henry was all about. Part of her trying so hard to turn Paige into a spy is because she wants a bond with her (and the centre wants it- fair enough). 

However, Philip sees family as a higher priority than Elizabeth does. Always has. 

Nah, I agree with Dubbel Zout on this one.

Elizabeth could stand Philip, but barely, if she had feelings for anyone?  It was Gregory.  She was ordered to have children, they both were, when she was ready to face fucking Philip, she went to him and said just that, "I'm ready."  Then she spent the next 15 years seeing and being in love with Gregory.  It wasn't until the Americans started that she realized she cared for Philip after all of those years.  She went to Gregory and broke off the romance in the first episodes, and began to fall for Philip after he killed her rapist.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

17 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Philip genuinely wanted to have kids, whereas for Elizabeth they're merely part of her cover as a typical American woman. She doesn't hate them—she might even love them—but they're a means to an end.

I wouldn’t go that far. She loves them. That’s what that phone call with Henry was all about. Part of her trying so hard to turn Paige into a spy is because she wants a bond with her (and the centre wants it- fair enough). 

However, Philip sees family as a higher priority than Elizabeth does. Always has. 

I actually think he probably never consciously wanted them, exactly. It was something he knew was expected so he didn't consider what he wanted. Once they were there he adored them, but he probably didn't think of it as a choice.

38 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Side note: the show runners keep saying Paige has a Russian soul. I have NO IDEA what that means, especially in the context of what I’m seeing out of her. 

This is without a doubt one of my biggest peeves about the showrunners. WTF does that even mean? How on earth does it apply to Paige? They seem to mean whatever it is that drives her to the church and to the KGB, but it's really pretty insulting. First to all of Russia because no, Paige's affinity for cults is not a Russian thing. It's also insulting to all the other Russian characters the way it implies they're just Russian by birth and language while Elizabeth and Paige--who has no connection to the country *at all*--are Russian on some spiritually higher plane.

The Russian soul was a popular 19th century concept that did not apply to Elizabeth or Paige. It was even a concept that faded away as the Soviet idea replaced it. It's hard to really define it, of course, but Elizabeth and Paige are totally *not* it. In fact, Philip is probably a better example of it according to Turgenev: "the dominant qualities of every true Russian, natural kindness of heart, simplicity and resignation. With a remarkably powerful brain, he had the heart of a child." The Russian soul absolutely might line dance.

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

Maybe the baby anvils (that is, anvils about having children, Stan and Renee) is to set up an end story with Henry settled with Stan and child-loving Renee.  

I really hope not. If nothing else, this episode showed that Henry doesn't need to be settled with child-loving anybody. He's already got the entire rest of his pre-adult years planned out with room and board. But also it seems like the thing about imagining characters placed somewhere (the most popular seem to be Henry with Stan and Philip with Martha) they're more of a beginning than an ending because there'd be a lot of baggage there.

[Erin9]

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

Nah, I agree with Dubbel Zout on this one.

Elizabeth could stand Philip, but barely, if she had feelings for anyone?  It was Gregory.  She was ordered to have children, they both were, when she was ready to face fucking Philip, she went to him and said just that, "I'm ready."  Then she spent the next 15 years seeing and being in love with Gregory.  It wasn't until the Americans started that she realized she cared for Philip after all of those years.  She went to Gregory and broke off the romance in the first episodes, and began to fall for Philip after he killed her rapist.

I didn’t mean she wanted children. IA- she wasn’t interested at the time. But I think she does love her children. No might or maybe about it. They are much more than a means to an end to her now- ie the surprise phone call to Henry when she tried to connect with him. Or, since i’m watching early episodes-when she woke Paige up to pierce her ears to bond with her. Among other examples. 

[Umbelina]

Oh I think she cares for her children now, probably more than she realizes, but not quite as much as her sworn duty to the cause.

[jjj]

Stan's son Matthew was a year or two older than Paige, correct?  So he would be out of college by now, or maybe senior year, and I remember Stan saying Matthew was thinking of moving in with his girlfriend.  So, not surprising he was not at the dinner with Stan's new wife.  

I hate gender stereotypes, but after seeing the FBI guys chowing down on the leftovers, maybe Renee should bring brownies to her interview at the Bureau. 

[Erin9]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I think she cares for her children now, probably more than she realizes, but not quite as much as her sworn duty to the cause.

IA with that. She’s always been that way. 

I keep wondering if there’s any chance she’ll learn to put family first before this is over. 

[BetyBee]

I think the "maybe they're all paying utilities for safe houses in advance" theory will lead to Claudia's capture, since she's in a safe house.  I hope so anyway.  I'd enjoy seeing Granny vs. the Feds.  I bet she'll go down swinging!  

I found myself saying to the TV, "He's such a good kid!" every time Henry spoke.  He is a good, hard-working kid who really cares about his Dad and accepts that he and his Mom are not close.  I think of how he ran to her seasons ago, when she'd been away recovering from the shooting and the way she cried out "Henry!" to him.  Counter that with her not even hugging him when he returned home from boarding school.  He could see the sadness in her that Philip has been overlooking.  Henry has no idea why Elizabeth is unhappy with her life, because he has no idea what her life really is.  I hope he'll be all right when the sh** hits the fan. I know I said this after the last episode, but Henry Jennings is the true innocent in the Jennings family.  

I thought what Claudia handed to Elizabeth was a suicide pill for the Chicago illegal.  Only because she said he can't be arrested and that's what the Mexico guy said to E when he gave her her suicide pill.  I thought E and Marilyn were hoping to intercept him as he was driven somewhere by the FBI and would get it to him.  Of course I could be totally wrong.  

It was a really action packed episode.  It's so hard to wait to see how it ends! 

[Umbelina]

Claudia handed her a manila envelope about a 4 x 5 size.  She wouldn't need to do that for a pill.  I think it was the agents contact information, photo, safe houses nearby, stuff like that.

If he's with the Gorbachev Coup group, he already has a suicide pill.

[Clanstarling]

15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Don't most families say a prayer before the Thanksgiving meal? Hmmm...

Not my family. Never said a prayer at Thanksgiving as a child, or an adult.

14 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder if Stan and Adderhalt discussed anything of significance in the elevator after the robot entered.  They stood there and then the scene changed. When they return they are in the room, so, ............hmm....

I thought "oh, I wonder if it's going to record anything worth hearing."

11 hours ago, teddysmom said:

He had the perfect opportunity and he turned her down. She invited him "for pizza" and he said he had to get up early, so that's what led me to believe he's not interested in her that way.  For his sake I hope he isn't. The death count is getting up there.

Me too. My initial thought was that it's time Elizabeth started using different tactics, at least for the young guys. Which she did.

I personally enjoyed this episode a great deal. And I liked the reveal that the FBI was, in fact, working on it and tying the pieces together. For me, it was much more exciting to see it mid-stream than to hear them work each piece of it (though there were off hand references to the General, and of course they were working Genadi).

Personally, I won't judge whether or not the writers/showrunners have met expectations until the finale. Time is short, but I've seen shows pull off a lot in a limited time.

[TheBride]

On 5/2/2018 at 11:04 PM, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Oh, those things are annoying af. I totally empathized with Stan that time he kicked the tar out of it.

I bet the mailbot is still bugged.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Oh I think she cares for her children now, probably more than she realizes, but not quite as much as her sworn duty to the cause.

I hope she gets back to Russia and realizes that she idealized it and what she believed is now mostly a lie.

[Dev F]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I honestly didn't see that. It's not like Henry's being sent off to the mines forever here. He's working a summer job with another kid from the same ritzy prep school whose father I believe owns the company. Pretty standard thing for rich American kids, actually. Would a guy who begged for food as a kid really be upset at his son working a more serious summer job to pay for his tuition at the fancy orphanage? 

Well, all the more reason why it's significant that Philip seems really embarrassed by the idea.

Quote

I also didn't see him thinking he'd let Elizabeth down so badly. He refused to get Kimmy traumatized and probably killed and stood by that. When Henry made it clear she was in trouble he first hoped she's just come home. But she didn't so he went to help her.

I'm not sure the most important part of Henry's revelation was that Elizabeth was in trouble. She's been going out on really dangerous missions and nearly getting herself killed or captured all season, so that's sadly not all that new. What changed Philip's mind was Henry pointing out how unhappy she is. That's the big realization, I think -- that Elizabeth didn't go down this dark path just because she has a different view of the spy game than her husband, but because he wasn't there to keep her from getting pulled into that darkness.

Quote

I didn't think he did it because he thought he'd let her down because that would imply he regretted burning Kimmy as a source and I don't think he did. I think he just wanted to help her because he does want to help her even if his help isn't good enough these days.

Oh, I definitely don't think Philip regrets that, or thinks he should've been more understanding about Elizabeth's need to murder a man and woman in front of their seven-year-old child. Quite the contrary -- I think he sees them as symptoms of the dark and lonely life he needs to save her from.

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It was, and that was my first reaction as well.  Then I realized that they used the scene pretty well, and it was short.  Stan had blown up at CI in front of his current co-workers.  Aderholt told him to let it out privately NOW if he must because he certainly didn't want that kind of shit said in front of his own team.  Stan pulled it back together.  It worked for me.

Shoving a demanding robot between Stan and Dennis in an elevator was also a nice way to show the distance between the two characters before bringing them back together in the bustling vault -- a major element of an episode about people struggling in solitude and then finding out they didn't need to be alone.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Dev F

[Umbelina]

I think that Philip KNEW Elizabeth was thinking she might die during this one, and that's exactly why she called her son, to have one last conversation with him, but she couldn't hide her sadness from her emotionally astute son.

I don't think Philip went because Elizabeth was sad, I think he went because she rarely asked for help on anything dangerous, so this one must be REALLY bad if it prompted her to finally talk to her kid.

[UGAmp]

10 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

Have to wonder if Stavos is good for a workplace shooting. Didn't going 'postal' have it's roots in the 80s. Or Stavos could come back for something and stumble upon something he shouldn't.

Would they could do after the dust has settled at the very end of the show and the fate of most characters has played out they could show Renee meeting Claudia or another handler even if Stan is out of the picture.

Thank you! I was scrolling through wondering if anyone else thought something like this. @MissBluxom too (sorry... I lost your quote somehow). I think Stavos is going to play some role in P&E going down. At first, when the successful travel agency was suddenly having money issues, I thought maybe Stavos was stealing from them. He seems to be highlighted in a lot of episodes (as much as a side character can be). So when Philip was looking over the books for hours, I thought he’d find that. When that wasn’t the case, I don’t see why P hemmed and hawed for so long about firing people. If you’re having problems, that seemed like an obvious solution. Granted I would have gone last hired, first fired but that’s just me. I just think Stavos is going to be a piece of the puzzle. Either Philip is going to survive this while ordeal just to be taken out by a disgruntled employee at the end of the show (and that will be a sucky ending) OR Stavos has been there for a long time and he’s seen and overheard some stuff that he knows isn’t right (even if it’s something small. Not necessarily “I think my boss is a Russian spy”) and he’s going to get them on the police/FBI’s radar. Just my two cents!

Edited May 4, 2018 by UGAmp