S13.E19: Funeralia

[catrox14]

Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) must stop Rowena (guest star Ruth Connell), who is on a deadly mission. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) looks to heaven to recruit angels for an impending invasion but is shocked by not only what he finds, but who. Nina Lopez-Corrado directed the episode written by Steve Yockey.

[sarthaz]

I remember hating Rowena when she first joined the show. All those scenes with her and Crowley just annoyed the shit out of me. I don't really know when it happened that I started loving her, but I do now, so I hope this episode is really good.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I remember hating Rowena when she first joined the show. All those scenes with her and Crowley just annoyed the shit out of me. I don't really know when it happened that I started loving her, but I do now, so I hope this episode is really good.

I started loving her after Inside Man.  Characters become more interesting to me when they interact with Dean,

[Katy M]

No, no, no.  You can not just bring Naomi back with some lame excuse.  Death has to mean at least a little bit of something on this show.  Even on this show.

OK, so let me get this straight.  If there are no angels in Heaven, Heaven dies or whatever.  Yet, Metatron threw all the angels down to earth and then came down to earth himself.  How did Heaven not die back then? 

And are there never any children in that playground?  apparently all you have to do to get to Heaven in stand on the sandbox.  I know they have angels guarding it, but that doesn't seem like it wouldn't draw attention.

Dean must hate Sam more than I thought.  you don't tell some powerful being that she can only be killed by Sam. Which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of in my life.

And, how is Rowena killing people any different than anybody else killing anyone else. Yes, I get she was killing reapers, too, but that's not what Jessica was complaining about. She was complaining about Rowena killing people before their time. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think I've ever said this about an SPN episode before, but that was... boring. And kudos/apologies to those who guessed Naomi was back. Yet another LOL!Canon moment, brushed off with some stupid exposition. And altruistic Rowena, who regrets her son's fate so much she is willing to screw the universe to get him back? Okay then.

Only 9 angels left in Heaven. And they are 'men and women' -- since when? And I might have nodded off and missed it - but where was Lucifer? Did Cas even find out he was in charge? Or is he now? Naomi seemed to be running the show and she 'closed' Heaven. WTAF? On the bright side, maybe we never have to see it again.

The Dean/Goon fight scene was fun, but just a plot device to keep him out of the Sam/Rowena confrontations.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think I've ever said this about an SPN episode before, but that was... boring.

I found the angel parts boring, because I always do.  I'm kind of excited about their being only 11 left, because then they can just not be there any more?  Right?  OK, I'm sure that's just wishful thinking on m part.

 

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And they are 'men and women' -- since when?

I think pretty much always on the show.  Dean called them junkless, but then he did take Cas to a whatchamacallit.  And, Nephilim have to come from somewhere which tells me that male angels have sperm.   Or, something anyway.  I'm putting way too much thought into this.

I was wondering where Lucifer was, too.  I figured he just took off after the last epi when everyone was mean to him.  Or, he's looking for Jack.

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think I've ever said this about an SPN episode before, but that was... boring. And kudos/apologies to those who guessed Naomi was back. Yet another LOL!Canon moment, brushed off with some stupid exposition.

Another character brought back from the dead? Damn it why isn't anyone listening to my Henriksen resurrection requests?? If it's a free for all at least bring back someone that had potential instead of someone who's storyline was hardly intriguing. *sigh*

[ILoveReading]

The more the characters try to explain to other characters whats going on, it becomes more and more obvious just how big a mess this season is.

Isn't Lucifer an Archangel?  Isn't his grace good enough for heaven?

Why wouldn't Naomi tell Cas that Lucifer is running heaven?

Things I liked

Dean's fight scene. 

I've always been interested in Dean's relationship with Death so Billies words to Dean were interesting.

Disliked

Pretty much everything else.

Yet another chosen one Sam arc.

I don't buy Rowena's sudden need for redemption.  Why now.  Why does she care about humanity all of a sudden?  Same with Crowley.  She threw Gavin under the bus to hurt Crowley to get revenge on him for Oscar, but now she feels guilty because Fergus didn't have love.

We've never seen Rowena really give a damn about Crowley/Fergus, she cared about what he could do for her.

Eyerolling stuff.

[MysteryGuest]

This one has me scratching my head, too.  So we're down to 9 angels?  Exactly how did that happen?  Where did they all go?   What's the point of bringing back Naomi if Heaven is that depleted?  The idea of seeing some familiar faces this season seemed like it might be fun at the beginning of the season, but this has really turned into a bit of a joke.  

I'm glad Rowena wasn't killed.  I do like her, and I prefer her as an ally to Sam and Dean.  I like their scenes together.  Sam needed to stop saying "save our family", though.  Like saving the rest of the world was an afterthought.  Especially to Rowena, who's just been told to suck it up and accept the fact that her son is dead and is going to stay that way.  

I don't really know what this episode had to do with the basic storyline, though.  And with Billie's "see you soon" comment to Dean, it does make his becoming Death (for whatever absurd reason) seem more possible.  I just don't see the point of it.  Haven't they got enough on their plates with the AU, Michael, Lucifer and Jack?  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

This one has me scratching my head, too.  So we're down to 9 angels?  Exactly how did that happen?  Where did they all go?   What's the point of bringing back Naomi if Heaven is that depleted?  The idea of seeing some familiar faces this season seemed like it might be fun at the beginning of the season, but this has really turned into a bit of a joke.  

Apparently they all killed each other.  Cas was complaining about their numbers being limited way back in Season 4. Then, he smited (smote?) a bunch of them at the beginning of Season 7.  Then Lucifer was killing a bunch.  

[Bergamot]

I have to say, I kind of wish the show had forgotten about bringing back Lucifer and instead brought back Naomi sooner. She is much more impressive as a villain. I loved it when Castiel is listing all the horrible things she had done in the past, and with a total lack of remorse, she blandly replies, "Yes, those were simpler times." Ha! I don't understand why Cas believed anything she said though. Just because the lights kept dimming in the throne room? (By the way, they should have come up with a more imaginative way to show that Heaven is supposedly shutting down. It is so ridiculously literal to claim that the angels are the "batteries" of Heaven and then actually show the lights going out. Come on.) Anyway, very convenient that Naomi has shut down access to Heaven. Don't trust her, Cas!

[BoxManLocke]

I didn't really like it. Massive improvement over last week, but the bar was very low.

 

I have never understood the writers' infatuation with Rowena. I can't stand the character and her constant overplaying of the most minor scenes to the point where she acts like a Disney villain half the time (the episode started 2 minutes ago and she's already waltzing with her bodyguard. I mean come the fuck on, I'm trying to get in the mood here). And the rest of the time, things get super serious, so I can't handle the constant tone shift. That happened a lot in this episode and even bled into the other storyline.

Anyway, she did get a more constructed and thought-out character arc than either Sam or Dean this season. That's nice for her fans, but I'd really like the writers to concentrate on the characters that matter at some point. I don't really care about her motives, especially since they involved potentially bringing back Crowley, as if this season needed another resurrection.

Bringing Billie and Jessica (who Dean instantly recognized after seeing her 20 seconds like a year ago) was a nice touch of continuity IF you can get over the fact that Advanced Thanatology happened 14 episodes ago. I like my continuity, to you know, continue throughout the season. I don't want to be expected to have to brainstorm for 30 seconds to remember where the hell Jessica was supposed to be from. After a point continuity just becomes random occurrences.

 

Speaking of random, how about Naomi, heh guys ? Another resurrection to add to the absolutely ridiculous pile of this season. What really hurts this one though was how pointless it was. Dumah could have as easily been used to tell Cass about the angel situation. Naomi brought nothing of value here. Not even fanservice. I mean, who would even ask for her return ? Nobody, but Amanda Tapping is a director on the show and the cast & crew like her so they'll just make up any reason to bring her back. That's been true for most of the comebacks this season and it's just depressing.

 

I do appreciate that Lucifer just happened to be absent during Castiel's visit, because the character is such a joke now he would've completely fucked up the urgency and drama that Yockey was trying to convey.

 

Even though I'm quite perplexed with the writers adding another *supposedly* high-stakes storyline 3 episodes before the season finale, I have to admit, the prospect of Heaven collapsing has me all giddy. I am so hoping the rest of the angels die so we never have to waste our time on them again. I don't see a scenario in which Gabriel joins heaven willingly, so I feel this could really happen. And billions of ghosts roaming the earth and killing lots of people ? Sounds like an awesome plan for season 14 ! But somehow I'm getting the feeling the writers would want me to hope that doesn't happen. They're wrong. Burn it all down, I say.

Edited April 20, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I found the angel parts boring, because I always do.  I'm kind of excited about their being only 11 left, because then they can just not be there any more?  Right?  OK, I'm sure that's just wishful thinking on m part.

I guess it's one thing to lock up Heaven, like they intended to do years ago, and another for it to completely burn out.  All those pesky spirits falling back to earth could get messy.  They need someone to opt to run the show up there and get their focus back on what they used to do for thousands of years when they weren't hanging out on earth.  I'm not sure I see Gabriel as their savior, but maybe he'll surprise us.  Or should we expect to see Chuck again soon?

I wasn't particularly bored with the episode, but it just seems like they veered away from the story.  And with only a few episodes left, and having wasted most of the season not dealing with the AU, just what are they waiting for?

[Katy M]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I guess it's one thing to lock up Heaven, like they intended to do years ago, and another for it to completely burn out.  All those pesky spirits falling back to earth could get messy.  They need someone to opt to run the show up there and get their focus back on what they used to do for thousands of years when they weren't hanging out on earth.  I'm not sure I see Gabriel as their savior, but maybe he'll surprise us.  Or should we expect to see Chuck again soon?

I wasn't particularly bored with the episode, but it just seems like they veered away from the story.  And with only a few episodes left, and having wasted most of the season not dealing with the AU, just what are they waiting for?

Sure, but if those 11 angels just stay up in Heaven to keep the lights on, then they won't be cluttering up our screen.  

3 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Even though I'm quite perplexed with the writers adding another *supposedly* high-stakes storyline 3 episodes before the season finale, I have to admit, the prospect of Heaven collapsing has me all giddy. I am so hoping the rest of the angels die so we never have to waste our time on them again. I don't see a scenario in which Gabriel joins heaven willingly, so I feel this could really happen. And billions of ghosts roaming the earth and killing lots of people ? Sounds like an awesome plan for season 14 ! But somehow I'm getting the feeling the writers would want to hope that doesn't happen. They're wrong. Burn it all down, I say.

That's what I was thinking. OOOH, mega ghost Armageddon for season 14.  

[ILoveReading]

If Heaven needs angels to keep it running why didn't it shut down when Metatron kicked all the angels out>

LOL!canon

[BoxManLocke]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And with only a few episodes left, and having wasted most of the season not dealing with the AU, just what are they waiting for?

The AU and everything else in it is only an excuse to set up the season finale's cliffhanger, it's clear no real thought went into the meat of the storyline, only the ending. It's way too late for it to really take off now.

 

Some say that's just Dabb playing the long game. I say he's an incompetent showrunner.

[Bergamot]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't buy Rowena's sudden need for redemption.  Why now.  Why does she care about humanity all of a sudden?  Same with Crowley.  She threw Gavin under the bus to hurt Crowley to get revenge on him for Oscar, but now she feels guilty because Fergus didn't have love.

We've never seen Rowena really give a damn about Crowley/Fergus, she cared about what he could do for her.

Eyerolling stuff.

Yeah, this didn't work for me either. I notice that she didn't bring up her grandson Gavin when she talks about what she has done wrong in the past, and what she wouldn't do now for her family. I actually thought that what she did to him was one of the most malicious and spiteful acts committed by someone on the show.

Also, Rowena is more fun as a character when she is selfish and scheming.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah, this didn't work for me either. I notice that she didn't bring up her grandson Gavin when she talks about what she has done wrong in the past, and what she wouldn't do now for her family. I actually thought that what she did to him was one of the most malicious and spiteful acts committed by someone on the show.

Also, Rowena is more fun as a character when she is selfish and scheming.

It seems like Supernatural needs to change its tag line from Family doesn't end with blood to "you get a redemption, you get a redemption, everyone gets a redemption" 

It feels like no one is really a threat on this show anymore.  I can't even say AU Michael is because he's so underdeveloped.

That's what I liked about Crowley.  He may help the Winchesters more often then not, but I never stopped believing he'd throw them under the bus if it benefitted him. 

As for why Rowena was suddenly all "I love humanity" it feels like it was done to make sure Sam giving her the page isn't a mistake.

[BoxManLocke]

Sam overseeing Lucifer & God Dr Phil session with clever bits of comedy like Lucifer's his old pal

 

Sam delivering a tearful and loving monologue to Gabriel, a guy who took joy in killing his brother a hundred times and making him miserable

 

Sam and Dean having beers with Rowena because muh redemption

 

Ketch is also a pal now

 

Looks to me like the writers are more interested in fueling the shippers' horniness and creating funny fanfictions than they are in things making any fucking sense when it comes to how the characters interact with each other.

 

Like ILoveReading said, Sam and Dean's relationship with Crowley is the only one that made sense. Whatever they tried since then feels so forced and unnatural.

Edited April 20, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[MysteryGuest]

To be fair, Rowena has shown signs of seeking a bit of redemption since Chuck and Amara came to town.  She started questioning her life then, and acknowledging that she'd done some awful things.  She revisited that issue again last season in What about Dean when she was talking to Dean and was concerned that he might actually remember what she'd said.  And then we had her set up this season telling Sam just how scared she was of Lucifer.  After being killed twice in as many years, I can see how that might change her.  What does seem odd is that her entire purpose for powering up was to bring Crowley back.  I assumed she was doing it so she could take on Lucifer, which would have made sense.  So maybe we end the season with the redemption of Rowena, Lucifer and Gabriel.  Rowena can run Hell and the Archangel brothers can run Heaven.  Which leaves Sam, Dean, Cas and Jack to go back to hunting monsters.

[Myrelle]

Ugh. This episode sucked on so many levels, but mostly the writing.

I love Amanda Tapping. She sold her part, which was the hardest, IMO.

And the Dean and Death stuff still resonates like nobody's business, but everything else just fizzled, including everything and anything concerning Rowena and her nonsense. That just feels like side story stuff, to be honest.

Give me the good stuff, writers.

I'm here, just waiting for it, at this point.

[Whodunnit]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

And billions of ghosts roaming the earth and killing lots of people ? Sounds like an awesome plan for season 14 ! B

Seconded.

I did wonder to myself if heaven only had like ten or twenty Angels left when lucy ascended to heaven and he had six people kneel, so I was amused to find out it's true. I'd be sad about the extinction of an entire species, but really only the jerks (Naomi) are left anyways.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Whodunnit
Why does autocorrect not fix actual errors?

[BoxManLocke]

Best part of the ep was the angel guarding heaven's gate who couldn't be bothered to give a fuck.

 

As a Supernatural season 13 watcher, I absolutely could feel his pain.

[gonzosgirrl]

It was a kickass fight scene.

[SueB]

Wow.  I so loved this episode!  Quick character commentary. 

Sam: I swear, he’s sweet on her.  I freaking love their relationship, just like I loved Dean/Crowley.  I was surprised he fired the gun at her.  I wonder if knowing all destinies lead to him killing Rowena somehow made it easier.  Don’t get me wrong, Rowena was dropping humans so it was justified.  But I was still surprised.  I also loved that he said he wanted to change her fate.   Thanks to Davy Perez for the eye candy!

Dean: The conversation with Cas at the start - A+.  ‘Don’t get dead.’   The fight scene was also incredible.  They ought to give him stunt pay as well as acting.  I can’t even begin to discuss the VHS tape....   Once again we got Dean on a mission to save Sam.  I know it’s overused.  I really enjoy that.  

Cas: Our third Musketeer!  The look of guilt on his face physically hurt to watch.  I hope he doesn’t do something stupid.  I also was pleased at him yelling at Naomi.  

Rowena: What a delight!  She brings real pathos to a character that should arguably have none. Loved the Tango.  I wonder if Bernard is ‘firm’? (Thinking of Rowena’s faux description of her lover in S10). I’m so glad she’s on the team.  

Billie: such a cool cucumber!  ‘Go ahead...’.  And I felt she meant it.  I like that she sent Jessica to go watch.  I’d love to read Jessica’s end of week report.  Some talented writer should get on that.  ‘See ya real soon.’   Not good!

Jessica: Well, she can’t replace Tessa but I like her snark.

Naomi- The silver hair kind of implied she had been they a struggle.  I don’t mind her resurrection but I’m side-eyeing her hard for being unrepentant towards Cas.  

Bernard - ‘I’m not under a spell, i love that woman!’ Same Bernard. Same.  Although I think not in the same way. 

Drunk Angel- Buddy, woah.  You need some love.  

I got a lot wrong in my speculation but I really liked what was onscreen.  

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

This one has me scratching my head, too.  So we're down to 9 angels?  Exactly how did that happen?  Where did they all go?   What's the point of bringing back Naomi if Heaven is that depleted?  The idea of seeing some familiar faces this season seemed like it might be fun at the beginning of the season, but this has really turned into a bit of a joke.  

I'm glad Rowena wasn't killed.  I do like her, and I prefer her as an ally to Sam and Dean.  I like their scenes together.  Sam needed to stop saying "save our family", though.  Like saving the rest of the world was an afterthought.  Especially to Rowena, who's just been told to suck it up and accept the fact that her son is dead and is going to stay that way.  

I don't really know what this episode had to do with the basic storyline, though.  And with Billie's "see you soon" comment to Dean, it does make his becoming Death (for whatever absurd reason) seem more possible.  I just don't see the point of it.  Haven't they got enough on their plates with the AU, Michael, Lucifer and Jack?  

I assume see you soon means he is going to tey one of his go to suicide moves to trade his life for someone else's... or he dies. 

Or actually the most likely scenario is what was suggested by the reaper, Rowena tipped things out of whack too much and a,whole lot of folks have to die and maybe she will ask Dean!Michael to handle it.

There is established canon for who becomes Death, the next dead reaper.  And it is not as if Death is going to be lackadaisical about who she lets get near her sickle which is the only thing that can kill her

Dean becoming Death makes no sense frankly.  That would be LOL canon... unless they feel compelled to do a season 6 repeat with Dean as death for a day to learn that lesson.  He seems to be learning it finally.  He just does not care sometimes.

[Castiels Cat]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

Wow.  I so loved this episode!  Quick character commentary. 

Sam: I swear, he’s sweet on her.  I freaking love their relationship, just like I loved Dean/Crowley.  I was surprised he fired the gun at her.  I wonder if knowing all destinies lead to him killing Rowena somehow made it easier.  Don’t get me wrong, Rowena was dropping humans so it was justified.  But I was still surprised.  I also loved that he said he wanted to change her fate.   Thanks to Davy Perez for the eye candy!

Dean: The conversation with Cas at the start - A+.  ‘Don’t get dead.’   The fight scene was also incredible.  They ought to give him stunt pay as well as acting.  I can’t even begin to discuss the VHS tape....   Once again we got Dean on a mission to save Sam.  I know it’s overused.  I really enjoy that.  

Cas: Our third Musketeer!  The look of guilt on his face physically hurt to watch.  I hope he doesn’t do something stupid.  I also was pleased at him yelling at Naomi.  

Rowena: What a delight!  She brings real pathos to a character that should arguably have none. Loved the Tango.  I wonder if Bernard is ‘firm’? (Thinking of Rowena’s faux description of her lover in S10). I’m so glad she’s on the team.  

Billie: such a cool cucumber!  ‘Go ahead...’.  And I felt she meant it.  I like that she sent Jessica to go watch.  I’d love to read Jessica’s end of week report.  Some talented writer should get on that.  ‘See ya real soon.’   Not good!

Jessica: Well, she can’t replace Tessa but I like her snark.

Naomi- The silver hair kind of implied she had been they a struggle.  I don’t mind her resurrection but I’m side-eyeing her hard for being unrepentant towards Cas.  

Bernard - ‘I’m not under a spell, i love that woman!’ Same Bernard. Same.  Although I think not in the same way. 

Drunk Angel- Buddy, woah.  You need some love.  

I got a lot wrong in my speculation but I really liked what was onscreen.  

Me too.  

A bit annoyed at the thought that they would try to replace Crowley with Fergus.

You forgot her flirting with Cas. Sublime.

Mention of the butterfly effect.

More Dean on edge.

Nothing is going as planned.

Cannot feel too sorry for Naomi since she was a drill happy manic.  See no reason to call that LOL canon either. Not an angel blade.  

One might see Billie's comment as ominous... or not. She told Dean that he had work to do. She told him she realized the big picture. Obviously she understands Dean's place in the big picture.

She has a reaper watching over him.  She knows this universe needs him.

Or.. He does, commits suicide again to make a deal... She comes down for a big reaping to reset the board...

It was an unexpected and interesting episode.

[Jediknight]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't buy Rowena's sudden need for redemption.  Why now.  Why does she care about humanity all of a sudden?

She alluded to it in "Regarding Dean" that when she met God and Amara, it all changed.  They were constantly arguing and squabbling over power, and weren't happy.  So if power didn't make them happy, why would it make Rowena happy.  Then she was stomped to death by Lucifer, which leads to the epiphany, that she's only really been happy hanging out with Sam, and Dean, and when her son was around, and she was helping people.

So, Sam kills Rowena?  Sam's gonna hook up with Crowley's mom.  It'd make sense, Padalecki and Connell do seem to play the characters having a bit of an attraction.

I really want to see Rowena and Jack meet.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 Sam needed to stop saying "save our family", though.  Like saving the rest of the world was an afterthought

Apparently, he's forgotten the rest of the bumper sticker he lectured Dean about in s11.

[catrox14]

Well, I just don't know if I liked this episode or not. It had some individually strong things and yet overall, the whole stupid Heaven thing makes zero sense. 

Metatron made the angels fall and Heaven didn't power down. SO WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? I know Yockey's name is on this and I believe he wrote the dialogue but the Heaven plot sounds straight out of the LOLcanon pen of Buck Lemming.

Dean fight was awesome

[Castiels Cat]

Apparently being brought back by  Rowena's wee resurrection spell has the unforeseen consequences of making one seek redemption and love of a sort.  Weird that.  

But it is playing out that way for both Rowena and Ketch it seems.

[Whodunnit]

Hmmm, maybe guilt is the price for the spell.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Apparently being brought back by  Rowena's wee resurrection spell has the unforeseen consequences of making one seek redemption and love of a sort.  Weird that.  

But it is playing out that way for both Rowena and Ketch it seems.

Power of the Winchester.  

And I just realized, Sam’s peen of death may go literal....

[bozodegama]

Wow, I thought that episode was great.  Hysterical.  The fight scene was cool and when the elevator opened and the two people watched, that was old school Supernatural funny.  Naomi was unnecessary but, what the hell, let’s bring back everyone.  Pretty ominous of Death to tell Dean he’d see her soon.  Guess whose going to die at episode 23 this year?  Oh well, I’m sure he’ll be back right away,  keep the episodes coming.

[companionenvy]

I thought that was one of the best episodes they've done in a while. 

Yes, there was some requisite Lol!canon. It doesn't make a ton of sense that there are only nine angels left or that heaven can't sustain itself with a depleted force, given that Metatron expelled all the angels once before. It also seemingly reverses the original "reapers are angels" retcon, as there are obviously more than nine angels if we include them, unless we're going to fanwank and say they're a different order of angels that don't count for this particular purpose. Plus, we had at least one ridiculously eye-rolling line when Dean says something along the lines of "dead is dead" to Rowena. She rightly calls him out on it, but it is not a line that should ever have been said in a scene involving three characters, all of whom have come back from the dead. Also,  "don't tell a massively powerful witch with uncertain intentions that your brother is the only person who can kill her" should be right up there with "Don't start a land was in Asia" as words to live by.

But what I loved about this episode, overall, was that there was a real sense of gravity to it. I still don't really care about angel plotlines, but the notion that heaven may be on its last legs gives some legitimate weight to what would otherwise be the umpteenth iteration of "something's rotten in the state of heaven." And the Rowena plot likewise moved in a more interesting direction than I had expected. I still don't 100% buy Rowena as redeemable - as someone noted above, helping engineer Gavin's death alone was such a despicable act that there shouldn't really be any coming back from it -- but she has been through enough, and her character has had enough prior moments of self-reflection that I'm willing to meet the show half-way and do a little bit of hand-waving. She's fun to watch as an outright villain, and even in this episode, her pleasure as she carries out her plan is evident. But her motives have changed -- she's still willing to be absolutely ruthless in getting what she wants, but what she wants is now something sympathetic and even kind of admirable.

Above all, her interactions with Sam and Dean have some genuine complexity. Sam is willing to kill her in this episode, but Rowena is not, it turns out, willing to kill him, and is genuinely hurt when she realizes Sam would have gone through with it. Dean takes a much harder line on her in general, but he, too, takes her grief seriously, and ultimately tells her that he does think she has the potential to be saved. And I actually am interested in the idea that Sam is destined to kill Rowena. Much as, against all odds (in the past I've thought Rowena had overstayed her welcome and called for her to stay dead), I now would like to see her survive, I hope the show has the guts to give us a real payoff to this set-up. My guess is that it is going to wind up coming as part of a mercy-killing or planned sacrifice; at this point, if Sam kills Rowena because she's turned villain again, it would be very disappointing, and I don't think the show is going there. Maybe it will just be an accident or something, but I'm hoping for a more emotionally resonant scenario.

[gonzosgirrl]

The reaper said in every iteration of Rowena's death, it's Sam who kills her. Except for the two times Lucifer has already? LOL.

It really was dumb to have Dean tell Rowena about it. It was also dumb to think she'd then just blithely sit there and let Sam cuff her. Oy. 

So did Lucifer bounce after his pity party last week? Or was it just not relevant for anyone to tell him Satan was running the show? 

[Pete Martell]

It was probably just a coincidence (I'm sure it was) but Charlie and Naomi returning back-to-back after their deaths got such controversy over misogyny and so on is interesting. The other one I remember getting a lot of criticism on that front is Meg, although I don't think we'll see her again.

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

It was probably just a coincidence (I'm sure it was) but Charlie and Naomi returning back-to-back after their deaths got such controversy over misogyny and so on is interesting. The other one I remember getting a lot of criticism on that front is Meg, although I don't think we'll see her again.

It's not misogyny when women die on this show, and it's not racism when black people die.  Everybody on this show dies.  In fact, I would say just the opposite.  It would be prejudiced to not kill women and blacks just because of that.

[Commando Cody]

Apparently there is no money left in the budget to pay a real actor to be a reaper. A creepy, voyeuristic reaper. 

I don't even know where to begin with this slow. plodding. after school special.  There was so much wrong with it. Just a terrible, terrible episode. 

[Commando Cody]

Since we know Sam is going to kill Rowena, it will probably be by her request - some sort of redemptive sacrifice. 

I'm looking forward to the souls falling - like the angels did. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I really wish I could enjoy the episodes like I used to without analyzing them because honestly you look close at all and it's a mess. 

 

There are no angels. Didn't heaven run on souls not angel grace? Naomi is back who I could care less about and somehow Lucifer and Sister Jo aren't there with absolutely no explanation. I mean he has archangel grace so what happened there and why wouldn't Naomi tell Cas that? NONSENSE. 

Ugh, now Rowena wants Crowley back. One of the few things I liked about her was she was a witch - not a mom worried about her son. Ugh. 

They are running around talking about how evil Michael is and they have to stop him. Which I could buy if we had seen him in the last five episodes. He's had like three scenes this whole season so I just don't feel the immediacy and intensity I should. 

 

Now, I love Billie and I love anytime Death is on screen. So smooth. So creepy. Telling Dean see you soon has me about ready to pee my pants. And I actually liked the other reaper. She was amusing.

 

The last scene with Dean, Sam and Rowena sitting on the floor was well played. Loved it. But that was about it.

Oh yeah, also loved the fight scene and the guard angel at the playground. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[Pondlass1]

Humans have been on this planet for tens of thousands of years - if the majority went to heaven, then we're going to be knee deep in ghosts when the angels all die off.  Could get messy.  Also - thank goodness a human invented the light bulb - what was angel juice powering before that was invented - fire torches ? (light bulb technology still hasn't reached Hell yet apparently).  Light bulbs and corporeal bodies should not be required in a celestial arena duh!!! 

The Heaven scenes and the  empty playground to be zapped there are beyond stupid and annoying.  Hope heaven closes and all the souls go off to the Big Empty making it the Big Overcrowded and we're done with that lunacy.  

I didn't enjoy this episode as much a last week's.  Dean telling Rowena Sam will kill her was odd.  Why would he say that?  Oh - yeah, dumb writers!!

And where were Luci, Sister Jo and the magic bottle of grace?  I thought they were up there too hanging about the throne room?

Ok - the Dean fight was cool.  I kept trying to check when it was Jensen and when it was his stand-in.  I think it was all Jensen.  He enjoys that kind of stuff. The lift door opening and people staring at them fighting - I liked that.  Kind of old Supernatural.

The reaper girl could not act.  Remember when reapers used to be something (see Faith)

I'm having an issue with Misha.  I know he has massive fans, but he was just not engaged this episode.  Also what's going on with his lips? They looked like he wore pink lipstick and were distracting (maybe my TV?)

I think the Rowena wanting Crowley back was an attempt to appease fans not happy with Mark's departure.  See people? Mummy did love him!

The pairing of Rowena with Sam worked.  But a Rowena redemption did not.  This really is the season of redemption.  I don't watch to see bad guys turn good.  I want evil and menace and suspense.  The show is not delivering this any more.  And death means nothing at all.  Billy might as well buy a condo in Florida and retire.  I wonder if anything will come of her 'see you soon' to Dean, or if it's another red herring to be forgotten.

Anyway, fingers crossed all angels die and Heaven shuts down and a buttload of ghosts drop to earth. Could be fun.

Dean was cool and bad ass.  Hoping this is a harbinger for the finale. 

I don't expect the writers to have watched all episodes, but Andrew is supposed to be the glue that holds canon together.  But watching early seasons is frustrating now.  

[catrox14]

That entire Butterfly Effect discussion annoyed me to no end.

This is the kind of exposition that hurts character. DEAN himself, spent an entire day learning a personal lesson about the Butterfly Effect, taught to him by DEATH himself, in "Appointment in Samarra" wherein Dean was wearing Death's ring and disallowed the girl's death and all of the consequences. So, instead of Dean being allowed to say something like 'Yeah, I know. I learned about it myself', Yockey only gives him a dumb line about Ashton's 2nd best movie and then stands there looking perplexed at the idea or something.  WTF show. That's awful continuity.

Edited April 20, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

If Billie as death is now graced with seeing the big picture, and reapers can't get their hands dirty what was the point of sending Jessica to monitor Sam and Dean.  If something happened to them, its not like she could stop it. 

Also the whole, we have to kill a bunch of people because they died before their time doesn't really make sense either.  I could see if it it was reversed because ep where Gabriel unsunk the Titanic it put 50,000 people on the Earth who otherwise wouldn't have been born.   But if you die before your time that would mean any more generations would end with the victim.

Rowena was murdering people to get what she wanted, and the Reapers got all upset because those people weren't supposed to die.  There are multiple murders committed by multiple people all over the globe.  Murder is taking away someone life by unnatural means, so why aren't the reapers getting all bent out of shape about an employee who gets shot during a robbery attempt at a Gas in Sip? 

The whole thing just felt forced to set up the plot of this episode instead of an organic set up.

Quote

his is the kind of exposition that hurts character. DEAN himself, spent an entire day learning a personal lesson about the Butterfly Effect, taught to him by DEATH himself, in "Appointment in Samarra" wherein Dean was wearing Death's ring and disallowed the girl's death and all of the consequences. So, instead of Dean being allowed to say something like 'Yeah, I know. I learned about it myself', Yockey only gives him a dumb line about Ashton's 2nd best movie and then stands there looking perplexed at the idea or something.  WTF show. That's awful continuity.

You can't expect the writers to actually be aware of Dean being death for a day.

Edited April 20, 2018 by ILoveReading

[auntvi]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Also,  "don't tell a massively powerful witch with uncertain intentions that your brother is the only person who can kill her" should be right up there with "Don't start a land was in Asia" as words to live by.

Seriously! Why would he do that?

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

There are no angels. Didn't heaven run on souls not angel grace?

Yes! Thank you! Wasn't that part of the entire Cas and Crowley alliance in s6?

 

43 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Naomi is back who I could care less about and somehow Lucifer and Sister Jo aren't there with absolutely no explanation. I mean he has archangel grace so what happened there and why wouldn't Naomi tell Cas that? NONSENSE. 

I swear this was written by Davy Perez. He sends people off screen with no explanation all the time.

Maybe 3 people wrote this episode?  IMO, it seems like

Yockey wrote the Rowena and Sam stuff.
Perez wrote the Heaven stuff, including the "Butterfly Effect" convo
Dabb wrote the fight scene for Dean.

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

You can't expect the writers to actually be aware of Dean being death for a day.

LOL not even Dabb who is the head writer? Why wouldn't I expect this?

48 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

the guard angel at the playground. 

I loved that guy. He was great. It was almost like Cas met his Future self from THE END.

[ahrtee]

Maybe everyone gets a redemption arc before the show ends.  No spoilers, just spec--maybe AU Michael and his angels will invade our earth, get redeemed, and repopulate our heaven?  (Of course, that would be after a season-14 arc of fighting.)

Or maybe the *real* Apocalypse has all the souls in heaven returning to earth and reuniting with their loved ones there, instead of in heaven?  After all, SPN heaven seems pretty boring.... :)

Or maybe all the Bobbies can take over and run heaven (with just a few angels to keep it powered up)?

I thought about the souls being the power source, but wasn't it Naomi who said they were there to protect the souls, not use them?  Billie, of course, seemed to have no problem using souls to power the anti-Amara bomb, so maybe reapers are more practical.  Maybe they should run heaven.

[Pondlass1]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That entire Butterfly Effect discussion annoyed me to no end.

Me too!!  And Dean's duh reaction. Grrr!!  The Titanic episode (which was a marvellous episode, folks) was all about the consequences of messing with fate. They know all about fate.  It doesn't have to be explained.

[Katy M]

49 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

They are running around talking about how evil Michael is and they have to stop him. Which I could buy if we had seen him in the last five episodes. He's had like three scenes this whole season so I just don't feel the immediacy and intensity I should. 

You know what I also realized.  Until last week, they were going completely off of Lucifer's intel regarding how evil Michael was.  Like he's reliable. 

 

50 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

There are no angels. Didn't heaven run on souls not angel grace? Naomi is back who I could care less about and somehow Lucifer and Sister Jo aren't there with absolutely no explanation. I mean he has archangel grace so what happened there and why wouldn't Naomi tell Cas that? NONSENSE. 

I don't know that we were ever told that Heaven ran on soul power.  We were told that the human soul was powerful, and that angels could power up with it (so maybe the few remaining angels should eat some souls, wrong, I know, but angels haven't really been known to be good on this show), but I can handle Heaven running on angel grace as opposed to human soul power because the power is different.  Don't get me wrong.  I still think it's a bucketload of stupid, especially since there was only Metatron for a long time and then even he left so there were no angels. But, the human soul power thing isn't bothering me in this.

 

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Also the whole, we have to kill a bunch of people because they died before their time doesn't really make sense either.  I could see if it it was reversed because ep where Gabriel unsunk the Titanic it put 50,000 people on the Earth who otherwise wouldn't have been born.   But if you die before your time that would mean any more generations would end with the victim.

I think the point was, you have less people, you have less butterfly effect.  It's an 'almost' starting over point.

[catrox14]

Maybe the Butterfly Effect is a meta take on this entire season.