S06.E05: The Great Patriotic War

[SusanSunflower]

I figured it was face-saving because of the summit and the numerous out of town vistors and attendees (and their antsy security detail) ... it can always be reopened and canvassing and investigation can continue under the cover of "tying up loose ends" regardless.   The weapons manufacturer breakin probably shouldn't be able to be covered up but again, burying the investigation keeps it alive for kin but invisibile to most ... unless it is front-page news ... thanks writers!!! 

Edited April 26, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

36 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  They gave us a decent picture of the kind of training Phillip and Elizabeth went through before they were ever allowed to go to the United States.  It looked brutal and took years.  I doubt Paige has had a quarter of the training her mother received, and Elizabeth is in no way preparing her for the reality of being a spy. 

The shame of it is that there is an element of a good arc here, Paige turning out to be unsuited for the work. You don't have to write Paige as an idiot to do that, however, and, in fact, writing her as highly perceptive and knowledgeable, but simply insufficiently indoctrinated and emotionally ill-equipped, would have been much, much, more interesting. The losing her cool in the bar scene was good, in fact, on it's own, but they unfortunately write Paige as full moron in nearly every aspect of her life.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Bannon

[SusanSunflower]

Reminding me that P&E knew very early on that killing people was part of the job, even just in self-defense and defense of the "illegals program" .... and many (even most of their kills) have been of that kind (even with arguably over reaction or unnecessary)   Paige really doesn't get how at-peril she is, much less her parents particularly if forced to take risks to save her...  I doubt she really "gets" that accessory to a burglary of a military installation is not a traffic ticket and worse when it leads to nasty interrogation about accomplices. She seems unaware that failure is very much an option .... as Elizabeth pointedly had to explain to her.

Edited April 26, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Ellaria]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The shame of it is that there is an element of a good arc here, Paige turning out to be unsuited for the work. You don't have to write Paige as an idiot to do that, however, and, in fact, writing her as highly perceptive and knowledgeable, but simply insufficiently indoctrinated and emotionally ill-equipped, would have been much, much, more interesting. The losing her cool in the bar scene was good, in fact, on it's own, but they unfortunately write Paige as full moron in nearly every aspect of her life.

 

Yes. There certainly was an element of a good arc here. And the writers gave themselves a way of executing it with the three year time gap. However, the Paige that we see after three years of training/indoctrination is probably no different than she was after three weeks of training.

For purposes of TV (and not necessarily real life), she should be a bit better about spying...like not running into the park at night screaming "Mom." She should be aware that sex is a device in the spy world. She should understand - or express a stated interest in - the history of the USSR. She should not still be in wide-eyed wonderment when she learns that people did regrettable things for food. She should understand the ramifications of her chosen work. 

The writers gave themselves a valid way of presenting Paige as a Junior Spy and they blew it...IMO.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[Ina123]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Reminding me that P&E knew very early on that killing people was part of the job, even just in self-defense and defense of the "illegals program" ....

Which reminds me. Why give E the cyanide pill now? Why weren't they issued before, so as to protect the "illegals program" in case of capture?

[Sarah 103]

12 hours ago, jjj said:

Elizabeth's "first time I had sex" story was a complete fiction, right?  I thought it was when she was raped by her trainer. 

Elizabeth was raped by her trainer but I never thought that was her first time. 

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

And while she is in college, I don't get the sense that studying is really why she's there.  Isn't it just part of her cover?

This is where the writers just dropped the ball in a big way. The original plan for 2nd generation illegals (as was described to the audience) was that as real official native born U.S citizens, the 2nd generation would be able to get high level jobs in government or intelligence agencies that someone foreign born would not be able to. Another element was that the 2nd generation would be able to pass almost any type of background check. Based on this, the Centre should be letting her take classes, have internships, participate in clubs (because maybe the econ major in _______ club/society becomes a big deal in government or the engineering major becomes someone important in a company involved in the military industrial complex). Instead we have spending time doing spy missions that take her away from making connections and dramatically increase the chance that she will be discovered. 

11 hours ago, skippylou said:

Might Kimmie mention to her father the bizarre warning she got from a friend?  That would set off all of his alarm bells. 

I don't think so, because how does she mention the information without revealing who Jim is and how she knows him? 

11 hours ago, skippylou said:

Hopefully, Phillip survives the attempt, maybe grabs up Henry and heads for an FBI office far from DC.   F the KGB, F Elizabeth, F the travel agency and lives happily ever after in Witness Protection.  

Yes! I love all of this expect for the Witness Protection program. This is exactly the type of thing that could set up my spin-off where Oleg, Stan, Henry and now Philip team up to fight crime A-Team style. 

10 hours ago, jjj said:

Do you suppose Mark Harmon is home watching "The Americans," and suddenly is amazed to see himself on the screen?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx34pdYatng

 He looks so much better now. In Moonlighting, Mark Harmon is nothing special, but in NCIS he is total silver fox. 

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, Oleg and Tatiana was a good scene. Counterbalanced by Renee"s, which was either mystifyingly pointless, or mystifyingly bad, depending on how the story plays out.

The only way this works/makes sense is if they're trying to show Stan working on his marriage after seeing things go horribly wrong with Teacups. 

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I really hate to nit pick, but, I will briefly. Paige oh Paige.  You know, I wasn't a spy in training when I was her age, but, I had greater skills than her.  She admitted that she had drank alcohol at the bar.  Did she drive there? If stopped by police, it could give cause for arrest. You don't want that. 

Based on where they are in DC, I doubt they'd drive to a bar. They would probably share a cab, take Metro/MetroBus or just walk. There's probably tons of places close by to get a drink

2 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I think that I could watch an entire episode containing nothing but Elizabeth revealing intimate personal details. I really love the Elizabeth character and I truly wish that I knew that character in my lonely life. Spending time talking with Elizabeth would be an enormously entertaining way to spend my time. Face it. Like her or hater her, she is still enormously interesting and entertaining.

I'd love to watch an episode of Elizabeth and Philip just talking about thier past and sharing stories about what thier lives were like before they met. 

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

ETA: Basement Lady got killed, didn't she? Just remembered. Aw, RIP.

There's probably someone new doing the same job. 

1 hour ago, shura said:

Speaking of Philip and Kimmy, how weird is it to talk to someone you know and hear them say "Hey, when you are in Greece next month, and someone tries to convince you to go to a Communist country, don't do it!"?  I'd be like, "Dude, are you... from the future?"

Kimmy would probably just chalk it up to pot or some other type of drug kicking in at that moment. 

40 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

To bring it back to The Americans, i can't decide if I want the last episode to feature any kind of montage showing where characters end up, set to some apt period song. Those are so fan-servicey. And yet...I do feel serviced by them. (especially if it would show Martha taking her daughter to the Moscow McDonald's for a fried apple pie)

I want to see where everyone ends up too. I hope it happens. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes. There certainly was an element of a good arc here. And they gave themselves a way of executing it with a three year time gap. However, the Paige that we see after three years of training/indoctrination is probably no different than she was after three weeks of training.

For purposes of TV (and not necessarily real life), she should be a bit better about spying...like not running into the park at night screaming "Mom." She should be aware that sex is a device in the spy world. She should understand - or express a stated interest in -the history of the USSR. She shouldn't still be in wide-eyed wonderment when she learns that people did regrettable things for food. She should understand the ramifications of her chosen work. 

The writers gave themselves a valid way of presenting Paige as a Junior Spy and they blew it...IMO.

When the arc of recruiting Paige was first introduced, many seasons ago, I applauded it, because I thought the writing and acting would be up to the task of doing something very interesting. No doubt my optimism was fueled by how extraordinarily well the Martha arc was being put forth.

I don't think I've ever been so disappointed in how a show turned out, no doubt because my expectations were so high.

[SusanSunflower]

because exposure of the rogue mission Elizabeth is working on implicate people far higher than illegals and handlers .... it would also be demoralizing (something of a vote of "no confidence" for all illegals to consider themselves quite so expendable, when they are constantly told how important they are .... I don't think Elizabeth was "flattered", the need for saying nothing to nobody became very very personal.

[teddysmom]

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

In Moonlighting, Mark Harmon is nothing special, but in NCIS he is total silver fox. 

I totally forgot. He was the hottest on West Wing. 

[Razzberry]

11 hours ago, Sader87 said:

OK, Paige is at GW (with Russian parents) and doesn't know the basic facts of WW2? I know it's often portrayed that the American education system downplays the Soviet Union's role in the Great Patriotic War but that wasn't the way I was taught it in the 1980s.

Same here.  In high school we learned about the massive losses in the Soviet Union.  Paige is supposedly in college but seems uneducated.

Good to see her sparring sessions starting to pay off, though, she can now clock unsuspecting drunks in a bar.  

[DoubleUTeeEff]

4 hours ago, JFParnell said:

Paige is past the point of parody. (A lot of alliteration from anxious anchors placed in powerful posts.) Didn't buy the "Paige loses it and exposes her ninja skills" scene -- it was just too obviously a "written" scene and setup, to get us usomeplace the writers needed/wanted to go next. The drink being had with the new boy who magically appears by the pinball machine; the lout nearby who behaves like a lout right when the script needs him to do so.

Setting aside that practically every fictional story is "written" and "setup" to get us someplace the writers want to go next, there have only been a 17 million times in my life when men harassed me to the point that I'd like to beat the shit out of them. It's not like some uncommon thing that happens to women.

3 hours ago, Shriekingeel said:

The best thing about last night’s episode of #TheAmericans was the shot of Philip in the phone booth, with the American flag just out of focus behind him. The camera rotates around to put it right behind him—like a cartoon angel on his shoulder, whispering into his ear.

—Sonny Bunch on Twitter 

That is interesting! Thanks for sharing. I didn't notice that but I did notice that after his scene with Paige, Philip was at the dining table and there was an owl figurine on the table. O Wise One, that Philip.

This episode belonged to Philip. First: Kimmie! He actually told Kimmie not to go to a Communist country! I was dumbstruck. His whole conversation with Kimmie was fantastic. I loved how he told her that she was right about being his being stuck. He really made a bold move toward coming unstuck. Instead of doing what he was told, he is deciding what is important. To him, killing a child's parents and leaving him an orphan is not justified. Neither is kidnapping someone's daughter and he was in the position to do something about it. This was a major turning point for Philip and The Americans. 

Second: Paige! What did he say? "Come at me. Come at me and I'll be fine." I laughed out loud when he got Paige in that chokehold and she was ineffectually trying to hit him and struggle her way out.

I agree with everyone that Paige just does not get it. And I think someone will end up dead because of it. Interesting that Philip thinks that she can do it but shouldn't and that Elizabeth thinks she can't but should.

I thought the scene with Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige was fine. Margo Martindale can do no wrong in my eyes, though. They do make Paige seem more naive than she has any right to be, it's kind of an over the top portrayal of what they are going for, I think.

So, Renee. I think that she is going to see or hear something that will help Stan figure out the truth. If that's not the end game, then she must have been thinking, "Stan you dolt, you finally figured out what I was angling for." But I think she's on the level. I just think she is going to play into the story somehow when things really blow up.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Same here.  In high school we learned about the massive losses in the Soviet Union.  Paige is supposedly in college but seems uneducated.

Good to see her sparring sessions starting to pay off, though, she can now clock unsuspecting drunks in a bar.  

Not just in college, but in college to advance her chances of obtaining a fast track career into the upper reaches of the national security establishment. Note to writers: by the time the people who eventually staff the CIA, the State Department, the DoD, etc., are undergrads, with serious career ambitions, they are not ignorant of the basic facts surrounding the obscure event known as "World War II". Sheesh, enough, already.

[SunnyBeBe]

Why did Renee toot the car horn as she was leaving the driveway? 

[mattie0808]

 

Elizabeth's "first time I had sex" story was a complete fiction, right?  I thought it was when she was raped by her trainer.

 

Elizabeth was raped by her trainer but I never thought that was her first time.

Didn't she tell Phillip that when she was recruited by the KGB, she had never even kissed a boy? (In the first season, as a way of explaining her relationship with Gregory and that she wanted to have a real one with Phillip for the first time?) I think she just completely lied because why ruin the slumber party vibe her Junior Spy daughter is enjoying so much with tales of brutal rapes and sex worker training?

Edited April 26, 2018 by mattie0808

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Setting aside that practically every fictional story is "written" and "setup" to get us someplace the writers want to go next, there have only been a 17 million times in my life when men harassed me to the point that I'd like to beat the shit out of them. It's not like some uncommon thing that happens to women.

That is interesting! Thanks for sharing. I didn't notice that but I did notice that after his scene with Paige, Philip was at the dining table and there was an owl figurine on the table. O Wise One, that Philip.

This episode belonged to Philip. First: Kimmie! He actually told Kimmie not to go to a Communist country! I was dumbstruck. His whole conversation with Kimmie was fantastic. I loved how he told her that she was right about being his being stuck. He really made a bold move toward coming unstuck. Instead of doing what he was told, he is deciding what is important. To him, killing a child's parents and leaving him an orphan is not justified. Neither is kidnapping someone's daughter and he was in the position to do something about it. This was a major turning point for Philip and The Americans. 

Second: Paige! What did he say? "Come at me. Come at me and I'll be fine." I laughed out loud when he got Paige in that chokehold and she was ineffectually trying to hit him and struggle her way out.

I agree with everyone that Paige just does not get it. And I think someone will end up dead because of it. Interesting that Philip thinks that she can do it but shouldn't and that Elizabeth thinks she can't but should.

I thought the scene with Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige was fine. Margo Martindale can do no wrong in my eyes, though. They do make Paige seem more naive than she has any right to be, it's kind of an over the top portrayal of what they are going for, I think.

So, Renee. I think that she is going to see or hear something that will help Stan figure out the truth. If that's not the end game, then she must have been thinking, "Stan you dolt, you finally figured out what I was angling for." But I think she's on the level. I just think she is going to play into the story somehow when things really blow up.

If anybody can turn chickenshit into chickensalad it is Margo Martindale. Thank goodness she's stuck with the show, with all the offers she gets. Along those same lines, the great work Rhys puts forth nearly makes me not hate the Kimmy arc, and that means that Rhys is really, really, great.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

1 minute ago, mattie0808 said:

Quote

Elizabeth's "first time I had sex" story was a complete fiction, right?  I thought it was when she was raped by her trainer.

Quote

Elizabeth was raped by her trainer but I never thought that was her first time.

Didn't she tell Phillip that when she was recruited by the KGB, she had never even kissed a boy? (In the first season, as a way of explaining her relationship with Gregory and that she wanted to have a real one with Phillip for the first time?) I think she just completely lied because why ruin the slumber party vibe her Junior Spy daughter is enjoying so much with tales of brutal rapes and sex worker training?

She prefaced that story by saying, "my first time really wasn't my first time." Technically she did not have sex with him but he thought that they did. Not sure about telling Philip she had never kissed anyone by that point.

[RedHawk]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't understand what Elizabeth thougth she had accomplished with Paige after telling her about WWII. To Paige, WWII was almost ancient history. 

What Paige did at the bar looked like basic-self defense to me. I didn't see anything especially Soviet/Russian about it. If someone asked her she could claim she took a self-defense class. Weren't self-defense classes for women a big deal in the 1970s through part of the 1980s? I loved the confrontation between Philip and Paige in her apartment. He looked off the minute he walked in, like something ready to explode. 

When Stan walked into the house I thought for sure he was close to figuring it all out. I'm hoping Philip realized it was a form of interrogation and did everything he needed to keep his cover.

Here's the part I don't understand about the Kimmie story. Why does Kimmie have to be home for him to change the tapes? I know it's easier that way, but in an absolute dire emergency/time-sensitive situation like this one, wouldn't it be easier to find a night when her father isn't home, break-in, and change the tapes that way? I understand that would not work on a regular basis, but it seems easier as a one time thing than a kidnapping/ransom plot. 

I also don’t understand why trained catburgler Philip doesn’t just break in. He knows the house well and they have people to help with surveillance. 

But then, story needs elsewise, so I try nit to question. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by RedHawk

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, if that plan to snatch Kimmie had worked out, there is no chance that their house would ever be vulnerable again.  Her dad would likely move and get crazy tight security, whether Kimmie was returned alive or not.  But, it might have been possible for P to break in and switch tapes out without dad knowing when Kimmie is away.  He should know alarm codes and have copy of keys to house by now, I would think. 

[benteen]

44 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Reminding me that P&E knew very early on that killing people was part of the job, even just in self-defense and defense of the "illegals program" .... and many (even most of their kills) have been of that kind (even with arguably over reaction or unnecessary)   Paige really doesn't get how at-peril she is, much less her parents particularly if forced to take risks to save her...  I doubt she really "gets" that accessory to a burglary of a military installation is not a traffic ticket and worse when it leads to nasty interrogation about accomplices. She seems unaware that failure is very much an option .... as Elizabeth pointedly had to explain to her.

This is where both Elizabeth AND Philip are doing a disservice to Paige...not telling her the truth about their activities.  Philip still is enabling this to a degree.  Philip loudly objects that "I didn't say Paige couldn't do the job" meaning he's still playing along with this charade. 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Dev F said:

I mean, they were teaching her tradecraft to help her keep her head in sexual situations, and sharing awkward stories about trading sexual favors to survive and trying to get laid in communal housing. It was hardly Sex and the City-type girl talk.

 

But it was exactly Sex in the City girl talk. They weren't telling her how to keep her head in sexual situations, they were teaching her that if you drink olive oil it coats your stomach so you don't get as drunk--iow, the kind of lessons you get in a sorority, which is where the scene went after that. They were sharing stories about their first time, not talking about tradecraft. Of course their stories include references to how terrible life was back then because they love that and that's their life. That was a big part of why Elizabeth wanted Paige to know the truth. She wanted Paige to know her. Right after Paige found out Elizabeth burst out with a story about her communal apartment and her mother. This was the first time she shared a sex story, but that gets back to how this is a Sex in the City bonding mom/daughter talk, not any real change for how Elizabeth is dealing with the work. 

Elizabeth's story, btw, surprised me. When she was talking about how she got with Gregory she said she was recruited by the KGB at 16 and never even had a boyfriend, stressing how inexperienced she was with love outside of the KGB. I know you don't need a boyfriend to have sex and that teenage girls had sex before the 1960s, but it surprised me that Elizabeth at 15 or 16 or whatever in the late 50s was intent on losing her virginity with some boy. 

12 hours ago, Dev F said:

Indeed, I'd be vastly more apt to believe that I'm mistaken about what the scene means thematically than that it doesn't mean anything at all.

Oh, I think it absolutely meant something besides just being a crowd-pleaser, but that doesn't mean they didn't also have that in mind. It's another example of how Paige's career is a way for her and Elizabeth and Claudia to bond with each other and for Elizabeth and Claudia looking to the past and have nostalgia over suffering. It's completely in keeping with every single culture lesson Paige has had so far. This time with drunk!Claudia and sex talk.

11 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

It honestly angers me that it's just been dropped. He was an important supporting character for four seasons, one in a critical role. T

I don't think it was ever meant to be known. It was only there to show that the KGB had some idea that went south that was so random it didn't even relate to a plot. It was really just there to get Arkady kicked out of the USA so he could be in the USSR now.

11 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Elizabeth’s plan was bad and reeked of desperation.

She would literally be scuttling the entire summit, wouldn't she? The Americans would never be able to negotiate with that going on, the USSR would probably be publicly shamed for it and the would-be coup would be exposed. Is this what Elizabeth comes up with when she doesn't have Philip to talk through her plans with? But then, Philip didn't bring up those problems either.

I mean, it's not just Philip committing treason here, right? Elizabeth is the one involved in a potential coup, the one who's trying to sabotage the country's negotiating at the summit. Philip's actually the one working for TPTB. If this were a Robin Hood story, he's one of the Merry Men loyal to the true king. Elizabeth's for John.

11 hours ago, lavenderblue said:

Delurking from this forum because for every Paige moment that has made me desperately hope we're meant to take the show itself at face value and disregard any showrunner or actor comments about Paige the superspy...nothing has flummoxed me quite so much as Paige laughing at the knowledge that Claudia traded sexual favors for food. So funny.

It's got to be an intentional directorial choice though, to show how little Paige gets any of this. It's intentional to not have a single scene where Paige is shown caring about anything in this besides herself. Even with Philip when she said she knew he "didn't like" what "they did" she "liked it." Because that's all that mattered. They might as well be talking about line dancing. 

Actually, it's maybe also very intentional that Philip and Elizabeth aren't talking about it either. Because when they've tried to bring it up they were so clearly on different sides they had to stop. Both of them see this as being about the means when it comes to Paige (Elizabeth thinks this is how she can be strong; Philip thinks it ruins her) but for themselves, it's about just as much about the ends. Elizabeth thinks she's strong for doing this too and Philip thinks he's ruining himself. But they're both spying in order to help their country in concrete ways each thinks they understand.

11 hours ago, jjj said:

Why the F did they even need Philip for this?  They have hordes of spies who could abduct Kimmie in Greece and take her to Bulgaria.  Philip even could have written their plane/train tickets. 

That's what I kept wondering--but then I did get that the idea was that Jim was a person she'd go to Bulgaria with willingly. Which is true and would be a better way to to do it, but honestly it makes more sense to me as Elizabeth just desperate to rope Philip into her terrible plots in any way she can so he has to be her partner again. Because the rest of the plan is actually worse. This is how Elizabeth was early on, using the work to get what she wanted emotionally. Obviously she's teaching Paige the same thing. 

It's an echo of season 1 where Elizabeth tries to get Philip back to her using work as an excuse and he refuses and holds out for her to ask him to come home because she wants him there personally. 

Like notice Paige continuing to say that Elizabeth was telling her who she could sleep with when Elizabeth was telling her not to spy on the dumb intern who's probably lying about showing her classified documents anyway. He's playing a game just like Paige is. Elizabeth was giving her important rules about spying and Paige hears it as her mom nagging her about her sex life. RED FLAG.

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought it was stupid when she acted all shocked that spy's sometimes used sex appeal in their job (GASP!) but now, she`s shocked to discover that people had a hard time in WWII? Like, congrats Paige, I have an announcement from my old friend Colonel No Shit. He says...NO FREAKING SHIT!

This is a small thing, but I thought it was also funny when Elizabeth mentioned her WWII module at school and Paige was like, "Was that in ninth grade?" Because most college students would probably be able to actually remember that.

What's more interesting is that for all that Claudia and Elizabeth tell us what Paige thought about WWII, it's not clear she's aware of having thought anything about it. They're certainly right about the USSR's losses (I believe there's a saying that the war was won with American steel, British intelligence and Soviet blood) Claudia and Elizabeth just want to replace one overly biased version with another. 

11 hours ago, anonymiss said:

What would have happened if the kid had run into the room mid-murders? It gave me flashbacks to Black Mirror's "Crocodile" episode.

 

I think they made a point of having him asleep so that Elizabeth knew he didn't see her. She was in disguise so maybe she could have left him anyway, but I'd believe her killing him too. Given her state of mind at the time it didn't really make that much of an impression, imo. She's doing what Philip warned Paige about--just refusing to feel anything. 

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

The FBI, in the midst of this mass murder spree with obvious espionage connections, keeps two defectors in an urban apartment with a fire escape (!!!) so as to allow Liz easy admission to her latest  stab-o-rama. It

And don't forget Gennadi also got out to walk through an empty alley alone. Elizabeth was going to easily murder him there before the FBI agent lazily caught up. She didn't even, like, hide in the bushes with a gun and a silencer. 

10 hours ago, Bannon said:

Agents don't cook up plans this without consultation. There is a reason why this ridiculous crap never happened during the Cold War. The real people involved weren't morons.

It's not happening with the real Centre, it's part of the Mexico City thing, right? So Elizabeth would, what, have to send word to the Mexico City people and they would arrange for the kidnapping themselves? Because it doesn't seem like Arkady would sign off on it. 

9 hours ago, izabella said:

And she understands nothing of Claudia's whole family being killed.  She has no frame of reference to "get it."

I couldn't help but think of how Paige herself seems so removed from the kind of grief Claudia seemed to be talking about. She's blithely putting her entire family in danger by not just being a spy but by being a sloppy, self-centered spy who rolls her eyes at warnings that she's screwing up. 

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I did like the bar scene with Paige beating the crap out of the drunk frat boys.  I didn’t really understand Elizabeth’s reaction.  She was more upset that Paige would blow her supposed cover then get hurt.

But she had good reason to focus on that. Paige was fine so there was no reason to worry about her getting hurt. There was huge reason to worry that Paige just revealed to a ton of people she knows that she's got super martial arts training she can't explain and nobody wants her to have as herself. Paige did blow her supposed cover. But since she's Elizabeth's daughter she's going to continue to keep spying as herself again anyway. It puts everyone in danger that she doesn't understand that she even has a cover. She didn't need to hit either guy--especially about the one who wasn't actually fighting with her at all. She just sucker punched him because she was angry. 

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Stan just shows up and gives P lots of business secrets......Isn't that against the rules? lol Recall how he told Henry that he didn't even talk to his wife about his job secrets. 

I just realized it's interesting (even if I know it was really a plot point) that Stan still feels that Philip is the person to talk to about this stuff. I wonder if Philip knew or suspected Elizabeth killed those people in front of their kid? He knows it was the KGB, obviously.

5 hours ago, JFParnell said:

Plenty of good movies from 1987 for Liz, Paige and Claudia to rent at the video store. Wall Street came out that year! They'd love that. Although it might not have been available on tape (tape, sheesh!) yet.

 

They only watch Russian movies vetted by Claudia.

4 hours ago, GingerMarie said:

I am not sure why everyone thinks Paige should act any differently than she is. 

I don't think many people do, actually. The way Paige is behaving is completely in character with who she's always been. She was loaded from the beginning to see the whole world in terms of how it served her, to seek out an authority figure and become the teacher's pet, to have a totally overdeveloped sense of her own safety and suffering. It's more, for me, just hoping this goes to a logical conclusion since it doesn't seem like anyone involved in the show acknowledges any of this in publicity. Of course people speak in a certain way when doing publicity so that doesn't mean it's wrong, and sometimes actors, especially, might not have an objective take on a character. But the show's had Elizabeth and therefore Paige as its hero for so long I can't tell if it's supposed to be an obvious trainwreck, especially since she's so very naive.

 

4 hours ago, teddysmom said:

May I suggest that instead of drinking olive oil (WTF), Paige just enjoy a 12 inch turkey sub from Subway prior to a night on the town. All that bread absorbs alcohol very well, and also fills you up so you're not eating crap at the bar, and no hangover. Now you eat it over the course of the late afternoon prior to your drinking but it works. 

 

I was thinking that too. The olive oil sounded like such a teenage old wives tale I wondered why they just didn't remind her to always eat a lot before she went out and also order club soda and pretend it's a drink or whatever.

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Where?  Because I am getting tired of coming here and feeling like I am the only person who still thinks this is one of the best shows on tv.  I almost didn’t post on this episode.

The thing is, there's stuff this season I think is fantastic. Even the Paige story is very compelling on paper: Elizabeth suicidally shooting the whole operation in the face by trying missing all the huge red flags that Paige isn't actually in this. She IS Jared.

As Bannon said, they could have had a story where Paige was intelligent and thoughtful but unsuited due to her not having the same background or motivation. But it certainly seems like they're going with having her embody the stereotype of the self-centered, naive, spoiled American teenager who's now applying her view of the world to spying and could therefore be the secret weapon that wins the Yanks the Cold War. Which is potentially great, really, because it's making a fundamental point about how Elizabeth has American children and it's better to let them live their own life and lean into the skills that life gives them (like Henry) than try to just tell them to become Russian kids who grew up post WWII.

This week we had the artist telling Elizabeth "There must be SOMEBODY in there who can see" and that could be a great foreshadowing of what's going on. But the show sometimes still seems to spotlight Elizabeth and Claudia and Paige in a way that makes if feel like they're supposed to be the heroes, even if they're flawed. And that becomes a problem because their storyline is the one that's full of the most unlikely silliness and willful ignorance. Not that those things can't make for a good story--I'm especially ready to go along with the fun spy silliness. But it's not hitting me the way it should be and that frustrates me. Maybe it's just that Elizabeth and Paige have always been the ones who pushed the story forward and they still are, so the classic heroes just become obstacles in their story.

It's like Moby Dick if Captain Ahab was supposed to be reasonable and admirable. Or maybe she's Captain Ahab but the show thinks she's Captain Queeg. 

Quote

  She might be able to take on a couple of civilians even male civilians but someone with real training is still out of her league.  

Personally, while I could buy some of the stuff in the bar, I think she should see she can't take on a couple of male civilians either. The point of martial arts is to get a chance to run. It was unfortunate, imo, that Paige inherited her mother's ability to be a tiny woman facing a giant and have nothing go wrong ever. Paige even admitted she'd literally never hit anyone before, yet you'd never know it from what she did--she didn't even hurt her hand. Even a man who *isn't* trained would have a good chance of taking her in a fist fight. I keep going back to that fight Philip had with Viola's brother in S1. That was a believable fight. Philip was better trained, but also smaller, and the other guy had been in fights before. It wasn't a clean fight, it was a struggle. Philip gets more realistic fights. Elizabeth's become Batwoman. 

Quote

What Paige did at the bar looked like basic-self defense to me. I didn't see anything especially Soviet/Russian about it. If someone asked her she could claim she took a self-defense class. Weren't self-defense classes for women a big deal in the 1970s through part of the 1980s? 

The point isn't that it looked specifically Russian, it was that it was beyond somebody being in a self defense class. Those things don't teach women to get into bar fights that they win with their awesome skills. (To answer a comment upthread about how this kind of training would be better for women, no, women should not be encouraged to sucker punch big drunk guys in bars - that's a good way to end up dead.) She drew attention to herself with behavior Stan would associate with the KGB. Two weeks ago Philip and Elizabeth dutifully threw away stew because it might have a tenuous Russian connection. Paige is now demanding people come up with explanations for training she shouldn't have that's far more unusual. Now everybody knows Paige isn't the harmless girl she appears--exactly what they don't want.

Quote

Not just in college, but in college to advance her chances of obtaining a fast track career into the upper reaches of the national security establishment. Note to writers: by the time the people who eventually staff the CIA, the State Department, the DoD, etc., are undergrads, with serious career ambitions, they are not ignorant of the basic facts surrounding the obscure event known as "World War II". Sheesh, enough, already.

I tend to read this as further proof that that's all a pipe dream nobody really buys. Paige hasn't shown the slightest interest in anything that would advance her cover career. She's barely interested in maintaining her cover as Paige Jennings. She's working as a low-level KGB foot soldier who's pretty and young and therefore bait. When she shows ambition it's about making her sex life important. Nobody here's acting like Paige has any bright career in front of her (interesting that even the guy in the bar tried to flatter her by saying she went to Georgetown and Paige had to correct him she went to GW) except one that involves sitting in a baseball cap in a car and knowing which guy to sleep with. Even the intern stuff doesn't give her the idea to *become* an intern (which would also probably be good on her resume to get her that great job). She naturally just thinks she could sleep with him and then he'd totally bring her classified documents. Even this ep had Paige's alleged friends go home because *they're* studying (Henry also mentioned studying for calculus) and weirdly telling her "he's cute" about the guy. Paige herself hangs around late at the bar ordering gin and tonic and then beer and chatting up guys, despite Paige spending so much time with her mom.

Edited April 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

30 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I totally forgot. He was the hottest on West Wing. 

And Thomas Schlamme directed this episode -- I always think of Harmon and the West Wing because he was such a great potential partner for CJ.  I like to think the commercial was a little WW wink, but I know I am stretching things! 

13 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Didn't she tell Phillip that when she was recruited by the KGB, she had never even kissed a boy? (In the first season, as a way of explaining her relationship with Gregory and that she wanted to have a real one with Phillip for the first time?) I think she just completely lied because why ruin the slumber party vibe her Junior Spy daughter is enjoying so much with tales of brutal rapes and sex worker training?

Yes, that was my recollection, also.

[SunnyBeBe]

Based on the information that E gave P, is he deducting that Russian intel knows that a Russian is talking with the CIA? AND, that the Russian is Oleg or that they know of him (P) talking to Oleg? Or is that other guy that was at the party where the lady got sick?  I'm confused.  How much has P figured out?  And, since Oleg said he and P could not meet in person again, how will they communicate? 

Edited April 26, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I tend to read this as further proof that that's all a pipe dream nobody really buys. Paige hasn't shown the slightest interest in anything that would advance her cover career. She's barely interested in maintaining her cover as Paige Jennings. She's working as a low-level KGB foot soldier who's pretty and young and therefore bait. When she shows ambition it's about making her sex life important. Nobody here's acting like Paige has any bright career in front of her (interesting that even the guy in the car tried to flatter her by saying she went to Georgetown and Paige had to correct him she went to GW) except one that involves sitting in a baseball cap in a car and knowing which guy to sleep with. Even the intern stuff doesn't give her the idea to *become* an intern (which would also probably be good on her resume to get her that great job). She naturally just thinks she could sleep with him and then he'd totally bring her classified documents. Even this ep had Paige's alleged friends go home because *they're* studying (Henry also mentioned studying for calculus) and weirdly telling her "he's cute" about the guy. Paige herself hangs around late at the bar ordering gin and tonic and then beer and chatting up guys, despite Paige spending so much time with her mom.

Then, for the 5 millionth time, television writers should be told 50 times a day, "Except for purposes of comic relief, sharp characters are more interesting than dull characters..."

[SusanSunflower]

There's no reason Paige could not have been studying any of the Martial Arts for 5 years ... such extended study looks good on a college and/or job application ... and as with "all things" it would have been very good for her to spar extensively with partners not-her-mother 

Elizabeth and Claudia should be encouraging  Paige to study and get good grades and even join various discussion or "good works' groups ... the better to network and develop a rep as a serious contender (in a likely very competitive environment).  She's been playing look-out for years now ... studying to get good grades this semester is more important 

My worst years in school were in Junior College taking top-tier life science classes (with labs) along side pre-med students who were maniacs arguing every single point of each and every test (beyond the wrong answer they gave, they argued the test was written poorly).   They also knew (of course) where they wanted to go to med school and where they wanted to do their residencies (and fellowships) in their field which they had narrowed down by interests and earning potential (and availability, eagerness for graduate student) 

One hopes there are other trainees (with need of the experience) in the pipeline who might have been used ... I do get a vibe of preparing to fold up the caravan that is not supported by larger real world outside of Elizabeth's death star orbit.

Edited April 26, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[BetyBee]

I really enjoyed this episode and was sorry to see it end.  Some of the takeaways that struck me were:

• Liz saying that maybe Paige isn't cut out for spying.
• Philip's reaction when Paige said she'll sleep with anyone she wants, was great.
• Loved Philip putting Paige in her place with the hand to hand real world fighting.
• Philip's face when he was finally having sex with Kimmie.  He clearly didn't want to be there and she seemed blissful.  I like the ending to their relationship of him warning her about side trips in Greece.  I hope that was the end of them!
• I expected the Teacup murders, but it was still sad, though good to know Liz didn't cross the line and kill Ilya.
• I'm not sure what to think of Stan and Renee.  They just never seem to get it.  

[BingeyKohan]

50 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I just realized it's interesting (even if I know it was really a plot point) that Stan still feels that Philip is the person to talk to about this stuff. I wonder if Philip knew or suspected Elizabeth killed those people in front of their kid? He knows it was the KGB, obviously.

 

I definitely think he knew Elizabeth did the killing. I thought that was specifically why he warned Kimmie away, because he knew if Elizabeth was capable of that he could not believe her assurances that Kimmie would be released after the Bulgaria scam and just go on with her life.

[Inquisitionist]

14 hours ago, jjj said:

Oh, and I noticed that this episode was directed by Thomas Schlamme  ("West Wing") -- don't know if he has directed other "Americans" episodes. 

He's directed five previous episodes, including two of my favorites:  Gregory and Glanders.

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Where?  Because I am getting tired of coming here and feeling like I am the only person who still thinks this is one of the best shows on tv.  I almost didn’t post on this episode.

Google "The Americans The Great Patriotic War Review" and you'll find very positive takes (and insightful reviews) at Vox, The A/V Club, Uproxx, IndieWire, etc.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Based on the information that E gave P, is he deducting that Russian intel knows that a Russian is talking with the CIA? AND, that the Russian is Oleg or that they know of him (P) talking to Oleg?  I'm confused.  How much has P figured out?  And, since Oleg said he and P could not meet in person again, how will they communicate? 

I don't think he thought any of that had to do with Oleg. All he knows is that Elizabeth has been roped into some job by an anti-Gorbachev group in the KGB. His reaction to what Elizabeth said was just about what she said--why is a KGB person talking to a CIA person in secret? Is that KGB person betraying the USSR? Elizabeth presented it to him as only that. She's telling him strictly about the official job that Claudia told her about--Kimmy's dad talked about having a "man on the inside" and Elizabeth has to find out if that's who this guy is. 

But really Elizabeth is desperate to do this Kimmy thing because she's linking this to the Mexico City thing that only she knows about. She's worried that this KGB guy talking to the CIA is connected to Gorbachev trading Dead Hand. She'd be worried about it anyway, but her secret mission makes her realize that maybe only she knows the real danger.

It's very possible that Philip has intuited part of this, that he assumes that the reason Elizabeth is so pushy about this is because of her secret mission. But so far all that he knows about it concretely is that Elizabeth was sent to get that nuclear device for it. 

So far Elizabeth has no clue that Philip is talking to anybody and neither does the Centre. The Centre does very much know that Oleg is in the US and they think he's up to something and assume it could be traitorous. That puts his family in danger too. So far Philip's still considered to be out of all of it. Elizabeth will soon know that he's refusing to go along with her Kimmy plan, but she could chalk that up to his being generally out of it. His genuine disgust at her spying gives him a good cover.

I really hope they do something with Philip's family back in the USSR. I don't mean more stories about Mischa that have nothing to do with Philip, but Tatiana went straight to threatening Oleg's family (granted that was probably out of resentment for his father being important). At the very least I would hope Philip would EXPRESS some feelings about them, like to Oleg. If he gets home alive, it would be nice if he could bring a message from Philip.

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Then, for the 5 millionth time, television writers should be told 50 times a day, "Except for purposes of comic relief, sharp characters are more interesting than dull characters..."

I'm not sure they don't think they're writing her as smart--they've described her as such in interviews. Smart and curious! 

[Erin9]

I am surprised it wasn’t explicitly stated that Elizabeth’s brilliant plan was going to result in The Summit being a complete and utter disaster. For everyone. But that was pretty obvious, I suppose. 

Philip did everyone a favor nipping that idiotic plan in the bud. The US, USSR, Kimmie, even Elizabeth. He should get a medal....or a stamp. Lol Gorbachev should thank him. He just did him a huge favor putting a stop to it. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he thought any of that had to do with Oleg. All he knows is that Elizabeth has been roped into some job by an anti-Gorbachev group in the KGB. His reaction to what Elizabeth said was just about what she said--why is a KGB person talking to a CIA person in secret? Is that KGB person betraying the USSR? Elizabeth presented it to him as only that. She's telling him strictly about the official job that Claudia told her about--Kimmy's dad talked about having a "man on the inside" and Elizabeth has to find out if that's who this guy is. 

But really Elizabeth is desperate to do this Kimmy thing because she's linking this to the Mexico City thing that only she knows about. She's worried that this KGB guy talking to the CIA is connected to Gorbachev trading Dead Hand. She'd be worried about it anyway, but her secret mission makes her realize that maybe only she knows the real danger.

It's very possible that Philip has intuited part of this, that he assumes that the reason Elizabeth is so pushy about this is because of her secret mission. But so far all that he knows about it concretely is that Elizabeth was sent to get that nuclear device for it. 

So far Elizabeth has no clue that Philip is talking to anybody and neither does the Centre. The Centre does very much know that Oleg is in the US and they think he's up to something and assume it could be traitorous. That puts his family in danger too. So far Philip's still considered to be out of all of it. Elizabeth will soon know that he's refusing to go along with her Kimmy plan, but she could chalk that up to his being generally out of it. His genuine disgust at her spying gives him a good cover.

I really hope they do something with Philip's family back in the USSR. I don't mean more stories about Mischa that have nothing to do with Philip, but Tatiana went straight to threatening Oleg's family (granted that was probably out of resentment for his father being important). At the very least I would hope Philip would EXPRESS some feelings about them, like to Oleg. If he gets home alive, it would be nice if he could bring a message from Philip.

I'm not sure they don't think they're writing her as smart--they've described her as such in interviews. Smart and curious! 

If the writers think that an undergrad at George Washington in 1986,  with plans of a career in covert espionage in service to the USSR, can be smart and curious, while being utterly ignorant of the most basic facts surrounding WWII, then we, the audience, are really screwed.

[BingeyKohan]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So far Elizabeth has no clue that Philip is talking to anybody and neither does the Centre. The Centre does very much know that Oleg is in the US and they think he's up to something and assume it could be traitorous. That puts his family in danger too. So far Philip's still considered to be out of all of it.

This whole post was helpful but this part in particular brings up another point of confusion (or plot hole) for me. These henchmen who are the equivalent of Elizabeth out in the field but coming from a direction that would mean harm to either Elizabeth, Philip, Oleg, or some combination of these characters: Who would they actually be? When the time comes and there is some violent confrontation, will one person be a character we know and the other be a stranger we've never seen before? It's not going to be Tatiana (I don't think) sneaking up on Elizabeth in an alley, asking her for a light then garroting her. (Bad example since they are nominally on the same side.) I guess the most likely combat combinations are Stan against Elizabeth, Stan against Philip, Elizabeth against Oleg, or a never-been-seen-henchmen against any of the above, which obviously would not have the same narrative stakes. But we just don't know anybody who really does in-the-field dirty work except for Elizabeth, and formerly Philip.

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't think Paige has said what field she's going into, but, if law she needs to prepare now. When I was in college, about the same time as Paige, law schools wanted lots of extracurricular stuff, volunteering, charity work, clubs, social stuff, etc. She used to volunteer at church, food pantry, but, now?  She might consider joining law society, Honor fraternities, student clubs, etc. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Ah yes, the home of the Neighbors We Never Knew. I agree with your description as their house puzzled me for ages and that's also what I finally decided. It still doesn't seem to work with the interiors at times, but eh. One of these days I hope to see an actual floorplan that proves the layout actually did not make sense.

What bothers me about it this season is that sometimes the extra two garage doors are there, and sometimes they are CGI'd out.  I find myself checking to see if the extra garages have appeared again.  But yeah, instant friendship with Stan across the street, but no mention of the tri-plex neighbors.

In the first 4 seasons I didn't care, small thing, the rest of the show is so good!  Last season I became so disheartened by the show that all those little things I had let go because the show was worth it?  Came flooding back.  I came into this season hoping for the very best, and it's BETTER than last season, but all of the "small shit" now still bothers me, and they've added BIG SHIT to the mix, which I'm just struggling with.  

• No blood at all on Elizabeth after two up close and personal stabbings, they even did a close up on her afterwards!
• NO, the followers certainly did NOT go into the building to find the apartment.  They barely got out of their cars.
• No FBI investigation of all the murders (seeing that side of things was GREAT in past seasons, I miss it so)
• ONE FBI guy standing outside in the front, on a building that had multiple entrances.  Fire escape, and no doubt a back door as well.

3 hours ago, shura said:

She said that, didn't she? I don't understand why it was about Mexico City. The Kimmy operation had been running well before that, they were getting information that would be useful if not crucial for the summit. Why not report it like that and say that they need help in Greece? It didn't have to be Philip any more than it had to be anyone Gaad knew to approach him in Thailand. Just get some young Bulgarian guys to strike up something with Kimmy and her friends if that's how you want to do it. Of course, it would make way, way more sense to just have Philip convince her not to go.

Speaking of Philip and Kimmy, how weird is it to talk to someone you know and hear them say "Hey, when you are in Greece next month, and someone tries to convince you to go to a Communist country, don't do it!"?  I'd be like, "Dude, are you... from the future?"

I HOPE Kimmie, who is not nearly as stupid as Paige, and has grown much closer to her dad now?  TELLS HIM THAT.  I would.  I would even if I wasn't that close to my dad, simply because he's CIA, and honestly, that was super strange. 

I so loved Philip in that scene, I loved him in all his scenes!  That was "old school THE AMERICANS" and oh how I've missed it! 

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I agree with you, but this wouldn't be the first series where the writing went sour in the final season. 

What bothers me most is that all of the deaths are stacking up like cord wood and no one seems to give a shit.  We don't see any investigations anywhere, and all I do get to see is that stupid smirk on Stan's face.  Where is the push back from the American side of things?  That could be easily shown if the writers would dump the useless Paige bullshit.

Yes, as I said above, seeing the FBI side of things was always something that made this show so good.  Maybe the writers will surprise us in some of the final episodes, and we'll get to see that again.  Without it, the show is lacking so much balance.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Maybe one of the underlings that was following Stan scoped it out, determined which apartment and a means to enter, or E went by and checked the alley and decided her route inside. I just really don't need to know every tiny detail. We have so little time to the end, just show me the important stuff.

Not a chance.  Also, WHY WOULDN'T THEY SHOW THAT?  It's a rather important thing.

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I don't understand what Elizabeth thougth she had accomplished with Paige after telling her about WWII. To Paige, WWII was almost ancient history. 

What Paige did at the bar looked like basic-self defense to me. I didn't see anything especially Soviet/Russian about it. If someone asked her she could claim she took a self-defense class. Weren't self-defense classes for women a big deal in the 1970s through part of the 1980s? I loved the confrontation between Philip and Paige in her apartment. He looked off the minute he walked in, like something ready to explode. 

When Stan walked into the house I thought for sure he was close to figuring it all out. I'm hoping Philip realized it was a form of interrogation and did everything he needed to keep his cover.

Here's the part I don't understand about the Kimmie story. Why does Kimmie have to be home for him to change the tapes? I know it's easier that way, but in an absolute dire emergency/time-sensitive situation like this one, wouldn't it be easier to find a night when her father isn't home, break-in, and change the tapes that way? I understand that would not work on a regular basis, but it seems easier as a one time thing than a kidnapping/ransom plot. 

As others have said, you can't just "say I took a self defense class" when you are planning to be a top secret plant for the KGB.  You need records of that.

There were several other solutions to the Kimmie thing.  I can buy that Elizabeth is so frazzled and overworked that she came up with that one, the groundwork has been laid there.  Philip has broken into tougher places, and why would it even have to be Philip?  The KGB has plenty of extremely skilled B&E teams.  They wouldn't even need a key (which Philip probably already has.)  I think it's because this is Elizabeth's "off book" job, and because Elizabeth is burned out, it's the only possible explanation for this ridiculous plan.

Using sex on Philip was so very very low of her.

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes. There certainly was an element of a good arc here. And the writers gave themselves a way of executing it with the three year time gap. However, the Paige that we see after three years of training/indoctrination is probably no different than she was after three weeks of training.

For purposes of TV (and not necessarily real life), she should be a bit better about spying...like not running into the park at night screaming "Mom." She should be aware that sex is a device in the spy world. She should understand - or express a stated interest in - the history of the USSR. She should not still be in wide-eyed wonderment when she learns that people did regrettable things for food. She should understand the ramifications of her chosen work. 

The writers gave themselves a valid way of presenting Paige as a Junior Spy and they blew it...IMO.

They really have painted her as a complete idiot, which I kind of applaud, because I always though Paige WAS a complete idiot.  But yeah, the almost wasted season last year, and the time jump?  Frustrating.

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

Which reminds me. Why give E the cyanide pill now? Why weren't they issued before, so as to protect the "illegals program" in case of capture?

She's in on a plot to kill the leader of the Soviet Union.  They (the coup team) are covering their own asses now.

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'd love to watch an episode of Elizabeth and Philip just talking about thier past and sharing stories about what thier lives were like before they met. 

---

I want to see where everyone ends up too. I hope it happens. 

So would I!  Especially Philip's past, we've covered Elizabeth's.  I enjoyed Claudia talking about her past as well, wow, what a life she's had.  How she could possibly expect Paige to have the kind of grit and loyalty SHE has?  I'd love to see Claudia share her private thoughts about Paige with Gabe.  She must be ready to tear her hair out, but must persist, because Center wants Paige.

I hope so too, even in a montage musical thing at the very end, it would be nice.

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Setting aside that practically every fictional story is "written" and "setup" to get us someplace the writers want to go next, there have only been a 17 million times in my life when men harassed me to the point that I'd like to beat the shit out of them. It's not like some uncommon thing that happens to women.

---

This episode belonged to Philip. First: Kimmie! He actually told Kimmie not to go to a Communist country! I was dumbstruck. His whole conversation with Kimmie was fantastic. I loved how he told her that she was right about being his being stuck. He really made a bold move toward coming unstuck. Instead of doing what he was told, he is deciding what is important. To him, killing a child's parents and leaving him an orphan is not justified. Neither is kidnapping someone's daughter and he was in the position to do something about it. This was a major turning point for Philip and The Americans. 

Second: Paige! What did he say? "Come at me. Come at me and I'll be fine." I laughed out loud when he got Paige in that chokehold and she was ineffectually trying to hit him and struggle her way out.

---

I agree with everyone that Paige just does not get it. And I think someone will end up dead because of it. Interesting that Philip thinks that she can do it but shouldn't and that Elizabeth thinks she can't but should.

---

I thought the scene with Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige was fine. Margo Martindale can do no wrong in my eyes, though. They do make Paige seem more naive than she has any right to be, it's kind of an over the top portrayal of what they are going for, I think.

 

 

• Ditto, and Liz was right, Paige had so many better options.  Little spy brat just wanted to use her rudimentary skills in the real world.  Oddly enough, I liked the bar scene before that part.  Holly Taylor does bar scenes well, her best work really.
• Philip OWNED this episode!  I loved each and every one of his scenes.  Oleg and Tatiana's as well.  Granny's too.  There WAS a lot to love in this one, they just blew it whenever Elizabeth was on screen.  Although I did love Elizabeth finally realizing Paige is a waste of time.
• Yes, and it's kind of a cheap way to go, but it's looking inevitable now that Paige brings it all down, possibly with an assist from Renee.
• Again, can you imagine a scene where Granny gets to talk frankly to someone about Paige?  Come back Gabe!  Just for one scene of REAL!

Quote

12 hours ago, skippylou said:

Might Kimmie mention to her father the bizarre warning she got from a friend?  That would set off all of his alarm bells. 

She should, and I seriously hope she does!  I gasped when Philip did that.  He was SO good this episode, and the writing was so outstanding for him. 

[SusanSunflower]

yes, demonstrating that you are "all in" when applying to graduate school, but also special honors programs/symposiums figure too.  These are coveted assignments/slots and those making the decisions want to see ambition and the ability to multi-task, etc.   They know the value of what they are offering .... Academic grinds have the grade.but they may not play well with others or see beyond their own ambition.  Even College-Barbie-Paige might well look like a sheltered mama's girl and her barhopping taken as a revolt against same ... part of the power of sororities and clubs is always being part of a gang and "safer" because you friends will discourage reckless behavior.   Showing up to class with a blackeye and stitches in your eyebrow is memorable, but not in a good way. 

Agree strongly that the lack of FBI story is part of the problem .... needs balance and time away from Paige and Elizabeth, both together and apart, their trajectories are seem set and disappointing. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

This whole post was helpful but this part in particular brings up another point of confusion (or plot hole) for me. These henchmen who are the equivalent of Elizabeth out in the field but coming from a direction that would mean harm to either Elizabeth, Philip, Oleg, or some combination of these characters: Who would they actually be? When the time comes and there is some violent confrontation, will one person be a character we know and the other be a stranger we've never seen before? It's not going to be Tatiana (I don't think) sneaking up on Elizabeth in an alley, asking her for a light then garroting her. (Bad example since they are nominally on the same side.) I guess the most likely combat combinations are Stan against Elizabeth, Stan against Philip, Elizabeth against Oleg, or a never-been-seen-henchmen against any of the above, which obviously would not have the same narrative stakes. But we just don't know anybody who really does in-the-field dirty work except for Elizabeth, and formerly Philip.

Renee!! She's secretly part of an even more secret intelligence agency! She usually goes by the codename "99", and her closest colleague is really old school, and still talks into his shoe, in the burgeoning age of the cell phone!

[whiporee]

There were great Paige scenes tonight. The bar scene was very good -- she acted exactly as she anyone would -- the guy called her a bitch and grabbed her as she was leaving. If you can defend yourself in that situation, you do. Plus, it melted into the romantic aspect of this that she's undoubtably embraced -- how many times have you seen James Bond beat up the jerky guy in the bar? Maybe never, but it seems like the kind of thing a spy does. But the other part of that I though I was awesome? How long it took Paige to drop him. She hit him and it took a knee to the balls to actually win. We've seen a lot of Elizabeth kicking the ass of men; I think Paige's scene there was to be a precursor to her fight with Phillip and to reitterate that she's not really good at this. 

The fight scene with Phillip was just awesome. I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish, but it was awesome. When he showed up I thought he was going to have a "serious talk" with her about all the implications of what she was doing, but he really just showed her how easily she could get her ass kicked/killed/raped if she keeps at this.

One things I'd have like to see her ask Claudia/Elizabeth was what are things like in the USSR now? Just the stories she's heard about food -- that they ate the same stew for weeks, that E ate rats, that Claudia fucked for rations -- would be enough to have her asking what exactly are we fighting for? After 12 years in American schools and a few years of American college, she'd know the American viewpoint on the war an the its culture pretty well, and she'd also been exposed to some of the Soviet bad events of history. Why has she abandoned all of the things she's learned -- why has she abandoned the questioning nature that led her to Pastor Tim in the first place and replaced it with a pro-Soviet zeal that reminds me of Tom Tuttle from Tacoma? As I look back at it, I'm the same age as Paige -- graduated high school in '84 -- and had been taught for my entire school career that America ruled. I was a leftist pinko according to my veteran grandfather, but even I thought that the US was the lesser of the two evils. How did Paige overcome that years-developed bias so quickly? For example, when Elizabeth and Claudia were insulting the 400,000 US soldier who died in WWII, why wouldn't Paige have pointed out the pro-America things she'd learned? That while Stalingrad may have actually been the cause of Hitler's defeat, it was that way because the German army was fighting on two fronts. Or even that the war in Europe wasn't really America's fight -- it was happening in Euraisa, so of course the casualty count was exponentially higher. American cities weren't being bombed -- and yet nearly a half-million soldiers died fighting for someone else's country. These are common sense retorts that anyone with enough brainpower to get into GW ought to be able to formulate. So what I really don't understand in the story right now is why Paige is so willing to embrace something (the superiority of the Communist way of life/philosophy) that she at least has some evidence isn't correct?

Elizabeth and Phillip grew up in hellish conditions and constant indoctrination -- Claudia lived through terror and sacrifice --  and sometimes moral superiority is how you get through those kinds of situations. Gregory had seen American civil injustice -- even poor Karl had watched apartheid first hand. But Paige grew up privileged in America; I don't know why Paige has so quickly adopted the idea at the expense of almost everything else she's been taught. That doesn't ring true to me. 

[BingeyKohan]

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Renee!! She's secretly part of an even more secret intelligence agency! She usually goes by the codename "99", and her closest colleague is really old school, and still talks into his shoe, in the burgeoning age of the cell phone!

well, yes, totally, that's my only thought! And while it would be sort of cool to see her spring into action that way it would also be disappointing since this show (despite some home-stretch writing flaws) doesn't tend to withhold information that crucial from the audience. I can't decide if it would be more deflating for her to turn out to be nothing, or for her to suddenly be a major something.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I totally forgot. He was the hottest on West Wing. 

Pretty much the same era (older vs. younger) Now to step out of the shallow end

1 hour ago, benteen said:

This is where both Elizabeth AND Philip are doing a disservice to Paige...not telling her the truth about their activities.  Philip still is enabling this to a degree.  Philip loudly objects that "I didn't say Paige couldn't do the job" meaning he's still playing along with this charade. 

I thought he meant at the start. When the Centre wanted to recuit her Philip didn't care whether or not she could do the job, he did not want her doing the job under any circumstances. 

2 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Tom Tuttle from Tacoma?

Love the reference. That's a serious deep cut from the 80s. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Sarah 103

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

well, yes, totally, that's my only thought! And while it would be sort of cool to see her spring into action that way it would also be disappointing since this show (despite some home-stretch writing flaws) doesn't tend to withhold information that crucial from the audience. I can't decide if it would be more deflating for her to turn out to be nothing, or for her to suddenly be a major something.

As long as somebody gets the line "Missed it by THAT much!"  I'm totally cool with it.....

[whiporee]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He's all in now, full out traitor.  Wow.

Isn't Elizabeth the actual traitor, though? She's actively participating in what could be considered a coup, in order to undermine the position and decisions of the actual government of the USSR. She's going around official channels with Directorate S in order to do so. For all his reluctance, Phillip is the one helping the actual position of the USSR, while Elizabeth is substituting her own beliefs for those of her government and acting accordingly. In the process, she is jeopardizing the prospects of peace and prosperity for her own people -- she's even admitted it, that she doesn't want the Soviets to be like Americans (which I assume means having stuff and being well-fed).

I wonder how Claudia would/will react when she finds out Elizabeth is contradicting the will of both the politburo and Directorate S. Maybe not as we might expect. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Isn't Elizabeth the actual traitor, though? She's actively participating in what could be considered a coup, in order to undermine the position and decisions of the actual government of the USSR. She's going around official channels with Directorate S in order to do so. For all his reluctance, Phillip is the one helping the actual position of the USSR, while Elizabeth is substituting her own beliefs for those of her government and acting accordingly. In the process, she is jeopardizing the prospects of peace and prosperity for her own people -- she's even admitted it, that she doesn't want the Soviets to be like Americans (which I assume means having stuff and being well-fed).

I wonder how Claudia would/will react when she finds out Elizabeth is contradicting the will of both the politburo and Directorate S. Maybe not as we might expect. 

Having Liz executed, and denounced as a traitor, by the official KGB, would be a reasonably good denouement to this story.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If the writers think that an undergrad at George Washington in 1986,  with plans of a career in covert espionage in service to the USSR, can be smart and curious, while being utterly ignorant of the most basic facts surrounding WWII, then we, the audience, are really screwed.

This is what scares me. I'm hoping that they just talked her up to make the story fun and didn't think it was a good idea to say "Elizabeth has all these plans for Paige, but omg, they're both so deluded." It seems like the only way Paige has even showed anything like curiosity or independent thought is when it comes to sex. Or I guess her own impulses after the fact--she thinks it's no biggie if she runs into crime scenes, creates violent scenes in bars or gets nosy with whoever she wants. She's all "Duh!" when it comes to not checking out "So You Want To Be A KGB Henchman?" at the library but even worse stuff is no biggie.

5 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

These henchmen who are the equivalent of Elizabeth out in the field but coming from a direction that would mean harm to either Elizabeth, Philip, Oleg, or some combination of these characters: Who would they actually be?

I would assume they'd want Elizabeth against everyone, especially Philip. Claudia might also be useful. I would not be disappointed if Philip would up killing her in some form of self-defense or something. Elizabeth was the one who beat her up but she's always been Claudia's favorite. Philip was her unwanted stepchild.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, as I said above, seeing the FBI side of things was always something that made this show so good.  Maybe the writers will surprise us in some of the final episodes, and we'll get to see that again.  Without it, the show is lacking so much balance.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

It's particularly egregious in this season with Elizabeth's murder spree. These are mostly all very important murders. This isn't Elizabeth taking out a homeless mugger in a parking lot in a bad neighborhood. We've lost a young naval officer, an air force GENERAL, several guards at a warehouse with weapons in it and now a couple of defectors all during this big summit. Not only do we not see *anyone* investigating these things it's like nobody thinks there's any reason they would. The most we've gotten is Stan and Aderholdt knowingly agreeing that the General was murdered. And now Stan sad about this couple that he was supposed to protect but...totally did not protect.

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I enjoyed Claudia talking about her past as well, wow, what a life she's had.  How she could possibly expect Paige to have the kind of grit and loyalty SHE has? 

There's also the interesting twist that Claudia has a family she's estranged from. Honestly, most of the story involving the distaff side of the KGB here (I want to make some Macbeth reference about the witches or something) only works for me as a sad tragedy about three people unable to have relationships without trying to filter them through their alleged plan to save the world. They're not even connected to the USSR any longer. It's the other side that happens to be mostly male who seem connected to the reality there, even Philip who hasn't been there for decades.

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Holly Taylor does bar scenes well, her best work really.

I think it's because it's much more natural for her to be able to listen to people in a friendly want and laugh etc. She's not consciously acting as much, I think. She's just like a real person listening to a somewhat entertaining person in a bar.

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, and it's kind of a cheap way to go, but it's looking inevitable now that Paige brings it all down, possibly with an assist from Renee.

I don't know if I'd consider that really cheap. I mean, they've earned that ending if that's where they go. From the beginning it was about these two Russian spies with American kids with Elizabeth not being able to accept that. Then we had the second gen program, Jared, Paige always being the way she is and Elizabeth ignoring all the signs and not wanting to let her develop as herself like Kimmy. It would depend on how it's done, of course.

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

• Again, can you imagine a scene where Granny gets to talk frankly to someone about Paige?  Come back Gabe!  Just for one scene of REAL!

I don't know. Claudia's not out in the field with Paige and we don't know what Elizabeth's telling her. Maybe she'd also want to see Paige as better than she is because she wants to replace her granddaughter with her. Or else, even better, maybe Claudia would be totally pragmatic and say she's not sure but she'll use Paige as much as she can and who cares after that?

5 minutes ago, whiporee said:

So what I really don't understand in the story right now is why Paige is so willing to embrace something (the superiority of the Communist way of life/philosophy) that she at least has some evidence isn't correct?

That seems central to her whole character, but I'm not sure it's supposed to be. Paige has always been like this--the only time she's ever challenging it's with her parents because she wanted to be part of their secret. She really has been presented as the kind of person who changes her beliefs based on which authority figure she's following and that's so very damning for her character. Especially since she's on a show where she's surrounded by people who take their beliefs and loyalties very seriously. If Paige was a Russian girl making these kinds of decisions Elizabeth would despise her.

3 minutes ago, whiporee said:

Isn't Elizabeth the actual traitor, though?

Absolutely, but it's totally in keeping with Elizabeth's character to believe herself the opposite. That's how she thinks. She can always justify what she's doing as being in line with her beliefs--she just wouldn't do that for someone else. I think Claudia might very well support her, actually. She's been passing on the orders and I think she'd consider herself correct for doing so even if she found out what it was.

[teddysmom]

8 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

"I didn't say Paige couldn't do the job"

I don't think she can, actually because she doesn't have the drive and reason to do it. P & E were escaping something awful, and by doing so helping their families. Paige is playing spy and being led down a primrose path by Claudia & Elizabeth.   

Guess what Elizabeth - the news stories about Russia are true. It really sucks over there, it's not the workers' paradise you think you're fighting for.  

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

No, Paige doesn't fully get it but that's on both Elizabeth and even Phillip.  When Paige said she likes what she does, like Elizabeth, it would have been a good time to point out that the suicide she thought was a suicide was not a suicide.  They're protecting her from the full truth and hoping she'll just follow demands.  But Paige isn't Elizabeth.  Unlike her mother, she wasn't raised to be a soldier and to follow orders.  She's not acting out of patriotism.  I think she's acting out of a sense of empowerment and connection to her mother.  That makes her unpredictable.

Excellent points. Some of Paige's mistakes are definitely hers alone, but when Elizabeth isn't honest with her about how the spy game really works, she needs to bear some blame when things go sideways.

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

WHY didn't Mr. and Mrs. Teacup and their CHILD not have FBI guards present when Elizabeth broke in?

Elizabeth snuck in via a window on the fire escape, at the back of the building. The guards were in the front. You'd think if there wasn't a guard stationed in back someone would at least walk around the building on a regular basis. It's plot-point writing, unfortunately.

Rhys's face as Philip was fucking Kimmie was so depressing. Philip was so utterly defeated at that point. And I said out loud, "You just committed treason, Philip!" when he warned Kimmie not to go to a Communist country while she was in Greece.

13 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I don't believe for one second the Americans somehow cheated the Russians or dishonestly got them to sacrifice millions of their people while the Americans only contributed a miniscule number of dead. That POV just burns me up. It's just not true.

I don't think that's what that scene was trying to say. I took it as Claudia and Elizabeth trying to tell Paige it was actually the Russians who beat the Nazis, not the Allies. Or at the very least that the Russians played a much larger role and suffered much more than Paige might have been taught. Their side deserved as much respect as the Allies got.

12 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’m not sure Paige could have sounded more clueless when she explained to Philip that unlike him she and Elizabeth are “into it.” Condescending too. Again- she has no idea what this life is. Not really. And she certainly has no idea why Philip really quit.

This side of Paige totally cracks me up, and I find it entirely believable. She's had just enough training and experience to be a complete disaster. 

10 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

When the Centre wanted to recruit [Paige,] Philip didn't care whether or not she could do the job, he did not want her doing the job under any circumstances. 

That's how I always saw it. He doesn't want his kids following in his and Elizabeth's footsteps. He wants them to be Americans, i.e., choose their own dreams. 

[teddysmom]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

If the writers think that an undergrad at George Washington in 1986,  with plans of a career in covert espionage in service to the USSR, can be smart and curious, while being utterly ignorant of the most basic facts surrounding WWII, then we, the audience, are really screwed.

THIS!  Of course, her mother is ignorant to what is actually going on in Russia. Maybe check in with your Sister Wife Martha, and find out who's living large, and who's rushing to the grocery store to grab the last loaf of moldy bread. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I don't think it was ever meant to be known. It was only there to show that the KGB had some idea that went south that was so random it didn't even relate to a plot. It was really just there to get Arkady kicked out of the USA so he could be in the USSR now

 

I agree.  They were kidnapping Gaad, probably to try to turn a disgruntled former agent (he was let go) and it went bad, which got Arkady to the USSR.

 

Quote

I mean, it's not just Philip committing treason here, right? Elizabeth is the one involved in a potential coup, the one who's trying to sabotage the country's negotiating at the summit. Philip's actually the one working for TPTB. If this were a Robin Hood story, he's one of the Merry Men loyal to the true king. Elizabeth's for John.

Yes, they are both committing treason now.  Odd twist, but I do like the complications of that.

Quote

It's got to be an intentional directorial choice though, to show how little Paige gets any of this. It's intentional to not have a single scene where Paige is shown caring about anything in this besides herself. Even with Philip when she said she knew he "didn't like" what "they did" she "liked it." Because that's all that mattered. They might as well be talking about line dancing. 

Exactly.  Although, when the writers are showing contempt for Paige?  I get a happy feeling.
 

Quote

 

That's what I kept wondering--but then I did get that the idea was that Jim was a person she'd go to Bulgaria with willingly. Which is true and would be a better way to to do it, but honestly it makes more sense to me as Elizabeth just desperate to rope Philip into her terrible plots in any way she can so he has to be her partner again. Because the rest of the plan is actually worse. This is how Elizabeth was early on, using the work to get what she wanted emotionally. Obviously she's teaching Paige the same thing. 

It's an echo of season 1 where Elizabeth tries to get Philip back to her using work as an excuse and he refuses and holds out for her to ask him to come home because she wants him there personally. 

 

It's a thought, but honestly, I think Philip was just the easiest in for Liz, and also, he IS running Kimmie.

Quote

I think they made a point of having him asleep so that Elizabeth knew he didn't see her. She was in disguise so maybe she could have left him anyway, but I'd believe her killing him too. Given her state of mind at the time it didn't really make that much of an impression, imo. She's doing what Philip warned Paige about--just refusing to feel anything. 

Also what the artist is trying to say....-  Oh, and I think Elizabeth would have killed that kid in a heartbeat if he'd been awake.  She's lost it.
 

Quote

 

I couldn't help but think of how Paige herself seems so removed from the kind of grief Claudia seemed to be talking about. She's blithely putting her entire family in danger by not just being a spy but by being a sloppy, self-centered spy who rolls her eyes at warnings that she's screwing up. 

 

She's a self centered brat, thanks writers!

Quote

But she had good reason to focus on that. Paige was fine so there was no reason to worry about her getting hurt. There was huge reason to worry that Paige just revealed to a ton of people she knows that she's got super martial arts training she can't explain and nobody wants her to have as herself. Paige did blow her supposed cover. But since she's Elizabeth's daughter she's going to continue to keep spying as herself again anyway. It puts everyone in danger that she doesn't understand that she even has a cover. She didn't need to hit either guy--especially about the one who wasn't actually fighting with her at all. She just sucker punched him because she was angry. 

Exactly, people know her NAME in that bar.  It's Washington DC.  For all she knows, one of those guys she just punched out for no reason at all is connected to the main business in DC, the government.  An FBI, Senator, Lobbyist, Ambassodor's kid who wouldn't hesitate to bring charges or sue her, or at the very least, tell the parents what happened when they get the medical bills.  It was SO ridiculous.

I DO love finally seeing Paige have a social life though, and her bar scenes are beyond doubt, her best work.

Quote

The thing is, there's stuff this season I think is fantastic. Even the Paige story is very compelling on paper: Elizabeth suicidally shooting the whole operation in the face by trying missing all the huge red flags that Paige isn't actually in this. She IS Jared.

Now the writers seem to be saying that though...which means Paige really does bring it all down.  That would be a sucky way to end, IMO.
 

Quote

 

As Bannon said, they could have had a story where Paige was intelligent and thoughtful but unsuited due to her not having the same background or motivation. But it certainly seems like they're going with having her embody the stereotype of the self-centered, naive, spoiled American teenager who's now applying her view of the world to spying and could therefore be the secret weapon that wins the Yanks the Cold War. Which is potentially great, really, because it's making a fundamental point about how Elizabeth has American children and it's better to let them live their own life and lean into the skills that life gives them (like Henry) than try to just tell them to become Russian kids who grew up post WWII.

 

Not all "American kids" are as stupid or self centered as Paige, so that does kind of bother me.  I think the writers may have had to "pivot" with Paige, when it became obvious the actress couldn't handle tougher scenes, and did much better as naive brat.

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The point isn't that it looked specifically Russian, it was that it was beyond somebody being in a self defense class. Those things don't teach women to get into bar fights that they win with their awesome skills. (To answer a comment upthread about how this kind of training would be better for women, no, women should not be encouraged to sucker punch big drunk guys in bars - that's a good way to end up dead.) She drew attention to herself with behavior Stan would associate with the KGB. Two weeks ago Philip and Elizabeth dutifully threw away stew because it might have a tenuous Russian connection. Paige is now demanding people come up with explanations for training she shouldn't have that's far more unusual. Now everybody knows Paige isn't the harmless girl she appears--exactly what they don't want.

yup-

Quote

-I tend to read this as further proof that that's all a pipe dream nobody really buys. Paige hasn't shown the slightest interest in anything that would advance her cover career. She's barely interested in maintaining her cover as Paige Jennings. She's working as a low-level KGB foot soldier who's pretty and young and therefore bait. When she shows ambition it's about making her sex life important. Nobody here's acting like Paige has any bright career in front of her (interesting that even the guy in the bar tried to flatter her by saying she went to Georgetown and Paige had to correct him she went to GW) except one that involves sitting in a baseball cap in a car and knowing which guy to sleep with. Even the intern stuff doesn't give her the idea to *become* an intern (which would also probably be good on her resume to get her that great job). She naturally just thinks she could sleep with him and then he'd totally bring her classified documents. Even this ep had Paige's alleged friends go home because *they're* studying (Henry also mentioned studying for calculus) and weirdly telling her "he's cute" about the guy. Paige herself hangs around late at the bar ordering gin and tonic and then beer and chatting up guys, despite Paige spending so much time with her mom.-

The only moments I really enjoyed with Elizabeth was her seeming realization that Paige SUCKS at this.  That was a lovely gift, thanks writers.  It took years to come, but at least it's here.  Why did they then spoil it all by giving Philip the out of place line "She COULD but she SHOULDN'T" or whatever it was.  No Philip, in this one instance, listen to your wife.  Paige is incapable of intelligence of any sort.

[Bannon]

Now I want to go on a "Get Smart" binge watch, to enjoy well written espionage stories....

[NitneLiun]

I suspect Stan's chat with Philip had a purpose. He was clearly watching P closely to gauge his reaction.  Even The Americans Twitter account posted a gif last night showing Stan watching P more closely than he would have in a normal conversation.

[SunnyBeBe]

9 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

I suspect Stan's chat with Philip had a purpose. He was clearly watching P closely to gauge his reaction.  Even The Americans Twitter account posted a gif last night showing Stan watching P more closely than he would have in a normal conversation.

Really?  To me, Stan seemed like he was his same old self. He was upset and turning to P for support, but, I haven't seen any reason for him to be suspicious of P right now.  I mean, P didn't even seem too curious, has never asked Stan about his work nor given any hint of being anything other than a neighbor, regular guy kind of friend.  (I mean besides the car thing years previously and the composite sketches, that he's never picked up on.) 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's how I always saw it. He doesn't want his kids following in his and Elizabeth's footsteps. He wants them to be Americans, i.e., choose their own dreams. 

This is a nitpick, but I think he only wants them to be Americans because that's who they really are. He wanted to move back to the USSR, after all. It's a small difference, but I think it's important because it seems like the idea of being yourself in the context of an oppressive government has a different meaning than it does in the US where there's more pressure to live your dreams, if that makes sense. Philip's whole arc has been about him finding freedom within himself while still being Russian so I like thinking of that wrt his kids.

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, they are both committing treason now.  Odd twist, but I do like the complications of that.

Especially because I suspect only Philip would accept it. Because being a traitor is such a central horror for Elizabeth. She has to believe she's representing what "people back home" want.

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not all "American kids" are as stupid or self centered as Paige, so that does kind of bother me.  I think the writers may have had to "pivot" with Paige, when it became obvious the actress couldn't handle tougher scenes, and did much better as naive brat.

Luckily I think Henry himself, not to mention Matthew and Kimmy, show that Paige isn't really representing American adolescence here. The show itself really seems to lean on the idea that Paige's personality is mostly down to being like Elizabeth, which is true in many ways. The American stuff really comes out in the way she simply feels safe and significant at all times. Way back in S1 Elizabeth mentioned how people "feel safe here" in the US and that really seems to apply to white, upper-middle-class Paige.

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The only moments I really enjoyed with Elizabeth was her seeming realization that Paige SUCKS at this.  That was a lovely gift, thanks writers.  It took years to come, but at least it's here.  Why did they then spoil it all by giving Philip the out of place line "She COULD but she SHOULDN'T" or whatever it was.  No Philip, in this one instance, listen to your wife.  Paige is incapable of intelligence of any sort.

I was so shocked when she said it, and then Philip ruined it. It makes me think of that time when Philip's claiming Paige was so graceful as a kid and Elizabeth reminds him that no, she was a klutz. He's always had a habit of seeing Paige as amazing--probably because she's like Elizabeth and he's in love with Elizabeth. But Philip's not the one with her in the field. If she was another recruit he'd have had far less patience with her than Elizabeth--we've seen him dismiss people like her right away. There's no excuse given he heard (and winced) at her story and saw her loudmouth dumb defenses of it. 

Then Elizabeth, imo, made it worse by turning it into another mistake Paige will "learn from" even though we don't have any evidence she's doing that. In fact, this is the second time she's reacted to a major mistake by yelling "I get it" like Elizabeth's being unreasonable. Her first big mistake Elizabeth hid from her.

9 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

I suspect Stan's chat with Philip had a purpose. He was clearly watching P closely to gauge his reaction.  Even The Americans Twitter account posted a gif last night showing Stan watching P more closely than he would have in a normal conversation.

I think he was watching him because he, Stan, was making a confession to him and was worried about Philip's thoughts about him having learned this. Since he was looking at him it was quickly clear that Philip was reacting to the news very deeply. That was the moment I honestly thought we were going to get a flashback of Philip's father's death or something since he was not much younger than Ilya when that happened. 

Iow, I think the purpose was Stan wanting to unburden himself to a guy he considers a good guy and a civilian. He had the same impulse when he talked to him after Amador died.