S06.E04: Mr. And Mrs. Teacup

[benteen]

I never watched Sons of Anarchy but I've heard that one of the many problems that show had in the later seasons was that the death count had become so high that it would have been impossible for federal agencies not to have noticed it.  The area where the gang operated would have been swarming with the FBI, ATF, etc. 

Having Elizabeth break into a highly-secured facility and kill three cops should be a lot bigger deal, the beginning of the end for her activities.  But it will likely be pushed aside and dismissed last week and Paige will remain oblivious to it.

I would assume she killed those guards.  Maybe she used tranquilizers but even that would draw a lot of attention.

Edited April 19, 2018 by benteen

[misstwpherecool]

15 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Do they do that with a tranquilizer gun?

I'm not sure but didn't E shoot a guard a second or third time on the ground?

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

I never watched Sons of Anarchy but I've heard that one of the many problems that show in the later seasons was that the death count had become so high that it would have been impossible for federal agencies not to have noticed it.  The area where the gang operated would have been swarming with the FBI, ATF, etc. 

Having Elizabeth break into a highly-secured facility and kill three cops should be a lot bigger deal, the beginning of the end for her activities.  But it will likely be pushed aside and dismissed last week and Paige will remain oblivious to it.

I would assume she killed those guards.  Maybe she used tranquilizers but even that would draw a lot of attention.

 

She was using a pistol with a silencer. You can't count on a tranquilizer dart the way you can a lead slug. Nor are there dart guns with a semiautomatic function.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Bannon

[SusanSunflower]

I don't agree with the NYT ("politically correct") theory that we disapprove of Elizabeth as ruthless killer somehow more because she's a woman, however Elizabeth as a "bad mother" is in stiff competition as a co-equal sin wrt Paige and Henry (and bad wife/partner or partner/wife with Phillip) ... she is failing in all realms which should be painful to watch but verges on being a matter of "bad karma" or getting too attenuated in pursuit of an ideological cause sacrificing all of "what really matters", i.e.,   the bluebird-of-happiness in your own backyard homilies...    Perhaps we are too sympathetic to a working woman's divided attentions that we take less joy in her falling apart than we may have in watching Tony Soprano burn every bridge.  Pride goeth before the fall and Elizabeth is having her prideful face rubbed in the dirt ...  takes a licking and keeps on ticking ...    (Are we really supposed to ignore the absurdities in the plot when they so abruptly pull us out of the story?   Is Washington so crime-ridden and regular Americans so callused that these deaths pass unremarked upon, instantly forgotten?  That an elite private school will simply send a scholarship student down because of his parent's temporary financial difficulty?  Which version of affluent white America in 1987 is this?)  

I've always been impressed by the Jennings' standard of living from that stand-in small-business travel agency.  That house and that development are fairly new and fairly luxurious (Americans used to not expect McMansions on most people's salaries) , plus new cars and Elizabeth's home wardrobe .... raising "cash flow problems" raises lots of questions (even if unexplained disproportionate affluence is all too normal wrt "normal people" in the media) ("Friends" is usually cited in this regard)

Edited April 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

It's so funny at this point. They start it off with a set up that's obviously supposed to be impressive with people in cars, only in the role of Philip we've got Paige out in the car in yet another knit hat trying desperately to project coolness. They all have walkie talkies and badass silent nods. Elizabeth is in her cat burglar outfit. This is a warehouse that should have pretty great security.

Elizabeth walks in, sets off an alarm, has enough time to run around shooting a lot of poor schmoes and then runs out to where Marilyn is waiting to drive away in the car. I guess we're supposed to cheer that Paige managed to start the car and drive away when told to do so without accidentally backing into a fence or something.

I'm always wary of arguments along the lines of "From the way the episode played it looked like we were supposed to think X, but I bet the writers wanted us to think Y, which is stupid." Why not assume that the writers intended to provoke the reaction they provoked, unless presented with evidence to the contrary?

Which is to say, I assume we were supposed to see the warehouse operation as having gone pretty badly awry despite the team's careful execution. That would be in keeping with the episode's storyline for Philip, in which he's trying so very very hard to be a good capitalist and failing at it. Similarly, Elizabeth is trying very very hard to be a good Commie spy and failing at that too. The point is that they both need each other, specifically, to function, not just planning and support in general.

Similarly, why should we assume that the warehouse operation isn't going to provoke a messy law enforcement response? General Rennhull's death came to the attention of the FBI in the subsequent episode, so there's every chance the burglary will too. And if it doesn't, it seems like that'll be a problem with the subsequent episode, not this one.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Dev F said:

 

Similarly, why should we assume that the warehouse operation isn't going to provoke a messy law enforcement response? General Rennhull's death came to the attention of the FBI in the subsequent episode, so there's every chance the burglary will too. And if it doesn't, it seems like that'll be a problem with the subsequent episode, not this one.

Because a pretty obviously trumped up "suicide" of an Air Force general, in a public park, hasn't resulted in enough news stories, for Paige the dummy to say to Liz, "Hey, mom, are you really telling me the truth about how general brains got splattered all over you"? Because, the next day, when Paige and Liz are discussing the kill-fest at the warehouse, Paige doesn't say anything about the news that a bunch of people were murdered at the warehouse? Are we to think that Paige thinks they all committed suicide?

Edited April 19, 2018 by Bannon

[Helena Dax]

I think Paige's just in complete denial, which is a pretty usual reaction. Most people believe what they want or need to believe and I guess she needs to believe everything her mother is telling her, just like Elizabeth needs to believe her daughter doesn't suck as a spy. Paige has few choices. If she faced the truth, she'd have to go to the police or she'd be as guilty as them. Also, Paige has always wanted a cause. I think, though, that we are meant to see that this can't end well for her. She can't follow orders and that will be her undoing. 

I'm surprised Philip hasn't robbed a bank yet. I mean, yes, he's a spy, not a bank robber, but after everything he's done, it would be a piece of cake. Anyway, it's funny how bertrayed by capitalism he feels. He thought going bigger was the right thing to do, because you have to think bigger, because it's the American way. But as he said to Stan, why can't you be satisfied with what you have? So Elizabeth is being bertrayed by communism and Philip has been bertrayed by capitalism and they're losing the only real, pure thing in their lives: their relationship and their family. Sad,

Philip was never completely out and I'm not even talking about the fact that it was mentioned last season that he would be still handling Kimmy. I mean, if the FBI finds out, they aren't going to say "oh, sorry, Mr. Jennings, we didn't know you were retired, please, don't mind us". 

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I don't agree with the NYT ("politically correct") theory that we disapprove of Elizabeth as ruthless killer somehow more because she's a woman, however Elizabeth as a "bad mother" is in stiff competition as a co-equal sin wrt Paige and Henry (and bad wife/partner or partner/wife with Phillip) ...

I think this is a problem that sometimes happens when you have non-traditional female characters, too, because on the one hand men are more often allowed to do these things, but at the same time male characters seem better able to weather the criticism. Walter White was not some universally celebrated badass. He was criticized plenty for being selfish, being a bad husband and father by people who cared about that stuff. One could argue that Elizabeth as a woman is more expected to be a better parent, but even that doesn't change the fact that the criticism is logical--and also Elizabeth is absolutely presented as a better parent than WW. 

Basically, you can't have a character that's all about putting this kind of ideology and job above all else, explicitly worrying that she'll be too distracted by a husband and kids, and then also call foul when the character's criticized for putting their ideology above their husband and kids. Her strengths are her flaws. She can't be both extremes at once. 

16 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I'm always wary of arguments along the lines of "From the way the episode played it looked like we were supposed to think X, but I bet the writers wanted us to think Y, which is stupid." Why not assume that the writers intended to provoke the reaction they provoked, unless presented with evidence to the contrary?

 

I'm wary of them too, but I didn't say "I bet the writers wanted us to think Y" at all in this case. I was describing what was actually on the screen and saying the set up vs. the chaos inside was funny. I wasn't suggesting the writers were not aware of that contrast. The only thing I was laughing at was a) how it seemed like it was actually pretty easy to break in and b) how much of a menace Elizabeth has become. Seven bodies in four weeks! Obviously the writers intentionally wrote Elizabeth as failing to do anything but kill a lot of people however badass she looks in her outfit. To me it was funny, especially because she herself has become so humorless and serious.

The only place I actually do wonder if I'm seeing X when the writers are writing Y is where I'm reacting to stuff that they're actually saying. That kind of thing you can't tell until the show's over and until then I think it's perfectly smart to be prepared for things to not go the way they seem to be going. 

8 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Because a pretty obviously trumped up "suicide" of an Air Force general, in a public park, hasn't resulted in enough news stories, for Paige the dummy to say to Liz, "Hey, mom, are you really telling me the truth about how general brains got splattered all over you"? Because, the next day, when Paige and Liz are discussing the kill-fest at the warehouse, Paige doesn't say anything about the news that a bunch of people were murdered at the warehouse? Are we to think that Paige thinks they all committed suicide?

Yeah, even Stan referred to the "General who killed himself in the park" as if that's what the paper said. Who else is thinking this is a suicide?

[SusanSunflower]

It's also sort of cowardly of the show to have Paige apparently honeypotting secretly as a matter of her own "choice"  ... particularly given Jim's seduction of the now of-age Kimmie is about to become "necessary"   (Jim having made keys to Kimmie's dad's house and playing cat-burglar would be "a" (if not "the") logical explanation of how he keeps the intel flowing) 

[Kathemy]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I will be disappointed if this series doesn't end with Elizabeth dying a slow, agonizing, painful death.

Then I fear you will be disappointed.

I think it's pretty clear from the run of events that Liz will indeed ultimately fail but Phil will pay the price.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think this is a problem that sometimes happens when you have non-traditional female characters, too, because on the one hand men are more often allowed to do these things, but at the same time male characters seem better able to weather the criticism. Walter White was not some universally celebrated badass. He was criticized plenty for being selfish, being a bad husband and father by people who cared about that stuff. One could argue that Elizabeth as a woman is more expected to be a better parent, but even that doesn't change the fact that the criticism is logical--and also Elizabeth is absolutely presented as a better parent than WW. 

Basically, you can't have a character that's all about putting this kind of ideology and job above all else, explicitly worrying that she'll be too distracted by a husband and kids, and then also call foul when the character's criticized for putting their ideology above their husband and kids. Her strengths are her flaws. She can't be both extremes at once. 

I'm wary of them too, but I didn't say "I bet the writers wanted us to think Y" at all in this case. I was describing what was actually on the screen and saying the set up vs. the chaos inside was funny. I wasn't suggesting the writers were not aware of that contrast. The only thing I was laughing at was a) how it seemed like it was actually pretty easy to break in and b) how much of a menace Elizabeth has become. Seven bodies in four weeks! Obviously the writers intentionally wrote Elizabeth as failing to do anything but kill a lot of people however badass she looks in her outfit. To me it was funny, especially because she herself has become so humorless and serious.

The only place I actually do wonder if I'm seeing X when the writers are writing Y is where I'm reacting to stuff that they're actually saying. That kind of thing you can't tell until the show's over and until then I think it's perfectly smart to be prepared for things to not go the way they seem to be going. 

Yeah, even Stan referred to the "General who killed himself in the park" as if that's what the paper said. Who else is thinking this is a suicide?

It's just ridiculous that the General's death was not quickly, publicly, officially, labeled a homicide, clumsily disguised a suicide, with a resulting appeal to the public for any witnesses in the park that evening. Which also makes the content and tone of the conversation between Paige and her parents in the kitchen in the latest episode ridiculous.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

It's just ridiculous that the General's death was not quickly, publicly, officially, labeled a homicide, clumsily disguised a suicide, with a resulting appeal to the public for any witnesses in the park that evening. Which also makes the content and tone of the conversation between Paige and her parents in the kitchen in the latest episode ridiculous.

And surely it should also be a big deal between Claudia and Elizabeth? There's this big summit coming up, lots of Soviets in town, a General who was previously accused of dealing with them is obviously murdered in a park and Claudia and Elizabeth can just continue to worry about hockey players doing PR tours? Like that's a pressing issue? Nothing about how that murder is making it more dangerous for Elizabeth to continue to go after the whatever it is? Apparently not, because Elizabeth was actually only stopped from getting the thing by some patriotic shrinkwrap.

Elizabeth's first three murders all seem to have have disappeared. Of course they could still come back to haunt her, but she doesn't seem worried about it. Paige probably won't be reading anything about the warehouse massacre. I wonder if Philip would make any connections if he read about it--he believes what he reads in the WaPo.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually the "thing" that's bugging me about "bad mommy Elizabeth" is how the writers are really pounding us over the head with it ....  and creating this utter grand-canyon of a divide between P&E, who have been married forever and have weathered "bad times" without (until this last episode somewhat) anyone losing their temper and saying "talk to me damn it!!!"  I've imagined that Henry returning home would be aghast at Elizabeth's burnt out appearance (Is she dying?) and Paige really should have expressed some concern (she doesn't have to "nurse" her mother but general "concern" about someone you love is not out of line) ... It feels like anvils and quite unfair to Elizabeth who we have seen has been primary caretaker, chief cook and bottlewasher to that household for a long time in addition to her laundry room and nocturnal adventures.  She's veering into dangerous stereotype (career before family) territory when this is actually a recent development (not so true 3 years ago) and possibly a quite recent (the Summit) (situational)? 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And surely it should also be a big deal between Claudia and Elizabeth? There's this big summit coming up, lots of Soviets in town, a General who was previously accused of dealing with them is obviously murdered in a park and Claudia and Elizabeth can just continue to worry about hockey players doing PR tours? Like that's a pressing issue? Nothing about how that murder is making it more dangerous for Elizabeth to continue to go after the whatever it is? Apparently not, because Elizabeth was actually only stopped from getting the thing by some patriotic shrinkwrap.

Elizabeth's first three murders all seem to have have disappeared. Of course they could still come back to haunt her, but she doesn't seem worried about it. Paige probably won't be reading anything about the warehouse massacre. I wonder if Philip would make any connections if he read about it--he believes what he reads in the WaPo.

It's just the all too typical hallmark of lazy writing in movies and television; mega-violence stripped of likely consequences. I wanted more from this show when I started watching it years ago. I've kept watching, largely for some terrific actors, but that hallmark continues to irritate me, or increasingly, it makes me laugh.

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Actually the "thing" that's bugging me about "bad mommy Elizabeth" is how the writers are really pounding us over the head with it ....  and creating this utter grand-canyon of a divide between P&E, who have been married forever and have weathered "bad times" without (until this last episode somewhat) anyone losing their temper and saying "talk to me damn it!!!"  I've imagined that Henry returning home would be aghast at Elizabeth's burnt out appearance (Is she dying?) and Paige really should have expressed some concern (she doesn't have to "nurse" her mother but general "concern" about someone you love is not out of line) ... It feels like anvils and quite unfair to Elizabeth who we have seen has been primary caretaker, chief cook and bottlewasher to that household for a long time in addition to her laundry room and nocturnal adventures.  She's veering into dangerous stereotype (career before family) territory when this is actually a recent development (not so true 3 years ago) and possibly a quite recent (the Summit) (situational)? 

Not especially subtle, is It? 

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

I was responding to the thought the NYT columnist put forth, that an American audience would not have a sense of moral repugnance in watching an American male character engage in a large quantity of murders. I don't think that is true.

I think the columnist simply asked the question, if you read the article, he puts it in context.

Also, this would be about an American CIA agent not a mob member, or Rambo.

The second part of it was about the male/female part of things.  Right now, everyone loves and roots for Philip, and dislikes Elizabeth.

So, reverse that.  They are CIA.  If the woman gave up on the USA, and not longer helped her partner, and indeed decided the USSR was the better option, and put her male partner in danger by having him have to do all the missions alone?  If the MALE partner was loyal to the USA and fighting the good fight to keep nukes and other dangerous weapons from Soviet Hands, while the female CIA agent went line dancing and refused to help her country at all...

WOULD the feelings be different.  He's not telling anyone how to feel, he's asking the question, and I think it's a good one.  It's about spies, it's about gender, it's about loyalty to your country, it's about doing your job.  Switch the countries, switch the genders, but keep them as spies.  Would you feel the same way?  Not you personally, the general you. (me, all of us)

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think the columnist simply asked the question, if you read the article, he puts it in context.

Also, this would be about an American CIA agent not a mob member, or Rambo.

The second part of it was about the male/female part of things.  Right now, everyone loves and roots for Philip, and dislikes Elizabeth.

So, reverse that.  They are CIA.  If the woman gave up on the USA, and not longer helped her partner, and indeed decided the USSR was the better option, and put her male partner in danger by having him have to do all the missions alone?  If the MALE partner was loyal to the USA and fighting the good fight to keep nukes and other dangerous weapons from Soviet Hands, while the female CIA agent went line dancing and refused to help her country at all...

WOULD the feelings be different.  He's not telling anyone how to feel, he's asking the question, and I think it's a good one.  It's about spies, it's about gender, it's about loyalty to your country, it's about doing your job.  Switch the countries, switch the genders, but keep them as spies.  Would you feel the same way?  Not you personally, the general you. (me, all of us)

I think people often ask questions when they suspect the answers. All I can say is that if there was a show where there was a male CIA agent in the USSR who was routinely murdering common Soviet citizens, out of ideological devotion to the United States, during the 1980s, I'd see that character as being engaged in morally repugnant behavior, and I'd see his female partner in a more favorable light if she began to become reluctant to participate.

[SusanSunflower]

My impression is that the KGB "allowed" Philip to semi-retire because they knew that Elizabeth alone would be in dangerous territory (see William) whether he was dead or "in Russia" and they wanted/needed to keep alive the idea that "retiring" was possible ... y'know, like Gabriel, like Claudia who goes back to Russian (in disgrace) and returns ...   If not for "being there to support Elizabeth,"  I think Philip would be dead and will be disposed of if she dies.  

It was several seasons ago that I considered (and rejected) either Elizabeth or Phillip getting promoted to being a "handler" in the event they chose to opt-out,   Elizabeth is too competitive and Phillip too conflicted and empathetic (at that time)   Neither has been in a position to develop useful "institution knowledge" (history, relationships, careers trajectories, etc.)   They are operational agents. 

I'm not looking at Phillip as someone who "let Elizabeth down" but someone who stood by her, even when he would have preferred to "got back to Russia" (or other alternative).   I also suspect Philip has some awareness of how expendable he really is. 

This season hit the ground running with this ice cavern between them I also.  Not seeing the last 3 years does not mean that the last 3 years have been "just like this" ...  as I said in my last post.  I assume the Summit and now the "special assignment" has tipped things to extreme burnout.  I also think the writers are pushing us to see Elizabeth as potentially latently suicidal.  Is she really?  I'm feeling sheepdogged by the writing to consider Elizabeth as "hopeless"even "terminal". 

Edited April 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[SunnyBeBe]

4 hours ago, rhys said:

Who is paying for Paige's tuition? If it's P&E, they should opt out for awhile in order to pay for Henry's senior year. Does E draw a salary?

That's what I thought.  Even if they continue to pay Paige's tuition, they could have her move back home for a year.  That's wasted money for her to live off campus, when money is tight.  

I just had this odd feeling that Philip just let people down last night and I am P fan.  While E has her quirks (wink. wink. lol), he really sold her out with Oleg.  I mean, hey, my wife is a patriot, but, she probably killed some general last week AND she's trying to steal some super secret military sensors.  I get him wanting to help and all, but, boy he just came right out with it.  No prying needed.  Oleg must have a trusting face....lol.

Then P just unloads on Henry, right before his game that day, that he's probably not going to be in his favorite school ever for his senior year, WITHOUT even trying to work it out with the financial aid office or mortgage company.  What about selling the sports car?  There are ways to drum up money.  Just cold, imo.  However, Henry does act rather obnoxious.  But, can you blame him?  

Did someone tell Paige to take pictures with her purse or was that her being spontaneous? 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

My impression is that the KGB "allowed" Philip to semi-retire because they knew that Elizabeth alone would be in dangerous territory (see William) whether he was dead or "in Russia" and they wanted/needed to keep alive the idea that "retiring" was possible ... y'know, like Gabriel, like Claudia who goes back to Russian (in disgrace) and returns ...   If not for "being there to support Elizabeth,"  I think Philip would be dead and will be disposed of if she dies.  

It was several seasons ago that I considered (and rejected) either Elizabeth or Phillip getting promoted to being a "handler" in the event they chose to opt-out,   Elizabeth is too competitive and Phillip to conflicted and empathetic (at that time)   Neither has been in a position to develop useful "institution knowledge" (history, relationships, careers trajectories, etc.)  

I'm not looking at Phillip as someone who "let Elizabeth down" but someone who stood by her, even when he would have preferred to "got back to Russia" (or other alternative).  

This season hit the ground running with this ice cavern between them.  Not seeing the last 3 years does not mean that the last 3 years have been "just like this" ...  as I said in my last post.  I assume the Summit and now the "special assignment" has tipped things to extreme burnout.  I also think the writers are pushing us to see Elizabeth as potentially latently suicidal.  Is she really? 

My initial reaction is to reject Elizabeth and suicide, HOWEVER, given the way her zealotry for The Cause has been portrayed, if she ever were to be completely disabused of her religion, I think it is possible. Don't think there are enough episodes left to credibly pull it off, however.

[SusanSunflower]

No, I meant latently suicidal ... taking unnecessary risks, putting herself in danger of injury or discovery ... not a conscious desire to die or be dead or even to get a good night's sleep the hard way ...  and her last murders have been reckless ... arguably giving Phillip any operational details was also dangerous (and may bite her in the ass or get her killed).   

The cyanide capsule was to ensure she had the means to "do the right thing" efficiently before anyone could interrogate or torture her ... no trying to find plastic bags to slowly asphixiate herself or something sharp to also slowly bleed to death.  Taking it, would not need for her to have any suicidal tendency, just to finish her assignment. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think objectively speaking, she's very good. She's reliable, can juggle numerous missions, and doesn't need much hand-holding. The fact that she's been able to stay under the radar for so long speaks to her skills (aside from the fact that the story demands it, of course). 

Yes, she is very good, and she's been doing the job for a very long time.  Philip was very, very good too.  It's a very difficult posting, away from home, friends, family, adjusting to a completely new world.  In the first episode of the series we hear Claudia tell them "things are going to get much harder now" and more ramped up, so perhaps it didn't used to be quite this hectic for either of them.

3 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

I don't think the briefcase tapes have infinite life span.  I think Philip just gets them when he can, and he and the Center hope for the best of what they'll find.  Of course "Jim" will encourage Kimmie to visit family as often as possible, but within reason.  They don't want to blow the cover/op.  Of course, now with the summit coming up, they'll want to up the ante and take bigger risks to keep her around and getting the tapes more often.
 

I agree, and that's probably why Philip has to sleep with her now, more reason for Kimmie to come home on the weekends.  She will be in love.

3 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

Just as last year there seems to be a lot of set up this year which at least is moving faster.

Philips money troubles could go several ways steering him away from capitalism and back to communism or he'll go all in since he's already committed crimes a con, bank robbery, heist etc wouldn't be beyond his skills or morals. Many have pointed out the centre would never let their cover/travel agency go bankrupt but  this is late in the Cold War where the west out spent Russia into peace, they had serious money economic troubles by the end. If anything he might be moved and the travel agency would be a semi legit resume entry.

What could happen is that Henry, coaches or teachers could file/help Henry apply for financial aide which could blow P & Es cover if somethings can't be verified. That might be just a side issue though.

When Stan was driving around he was being followed which is setting up the discovery of the safe house and probable hit on the defector. Since both FBI and KGB seem to short on resources this will probably be a sloppy job. Speaking of which how many dead bodies have to show up at defense contractors before alarm bells are rung?

I agree with all of this.

I think the FBI, military, and local police being stretched very thin trying to follow all of the Russians and Summit activity, along with the DC being known for murders could, logically, be the reason the General's suicide wasn't investigated more thoroughly. 

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Back on topic, I just think they need to lay off having Elizabeth killing people each week.  It is getting old, and no matter how many more people she kills, it isn't going to make me hate her anymore than I already do.

The same thing could be said about Paige and her being both naive and incompetent at the same time.  She could pull a rabbit out of her ass, and I am still not going to think much of her.  There is no way that she can live in her mother's and Claudia's little bubble of a world.  It just doesn't seem logical that she could isolate herself into a USSR world.  A world she has never grown up in.

It's REALLY getting old having Elizabeth killing so many people.  I have to think that will be part of her downfall here.

That's my biggest issue with Paige, and one the time jump doesn't cover at all.  WHY would an American girl be willing to commit treason?  For the USSR?  In WHAT reality?  That's the cheat of the time jump I just can't accept, and they could at least do small scenes explaining that one.

Because it's fucking HUGE.

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

 

I've always been impressed by the Jennings' standard of living from that stand-in small-business travel agency.  That house and that development are fairly new and fairly luxurious (Americans used to not expect McMansions on most people's salaries) , plus new cars and Elizabeth's home wardrobe .... raising "cash flow problems" raises lots of questions (even if unexplained disproportionate affluence is all too normal wrt "normal people" in the media) ("Friends" is usually cited in this regard)

Also, the disappearing and reappearing extra garage doors bug the shit out of me.  They actually live in a Tri Plex, that whole house isn't theirs.  I think this show was on a strict budget in the beginning, and they just picked a house the show could afford.  The floor plan doesn't jive either.

The house has been jarring for me from the beginning.  For example, when someone pulls in the driveway blocking the other two garage doors, it ALWAYS takes me out of the moment.  "Park somewhere else!  Your Tri-Plex neighbors won't be able to get in or out of their garages!"

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I'm always wary of arguments along the lines of "From the way the episode played it looked like we were supposed to think X, but I bet the writers wanted us to think Y, which is stupid." Why not assume that the writers intended to provoke the reaction they provoked, unless presented with evidence to the contrary?

Which is to say, I assume we were supposed to see the warehouse operation as having gone pretty badly awry despite the team's careful execution. That would be in keeping with the episode's storyline for Philip, in which he's trying so very very hard to be a good capitalist and failing at it. Similarly, Elizabeth is trying very very hard to be a good Commie spy and failing at that too. The point is that they both need each other, specifically, to function, not just planning and support in general.

Similarly, why should we assume that the warehouse operation isn't going to provoke a messy law enforcement response? General Rennhull's death came to the attention of the FBI in the subsequent episode, so there's every chance the burglary will too. And if it doesn't, it seems like that'll be a problem with the subsequent episode, not this one.

Exactly.

Also, while I agree it's time for some follow up in several ways, Paige reading the papers, the stretched thin law enforcement putting the obvious similarities together about the deaths?

I kind of think we are about to see all of that happen.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

She's veering into dangerous stereotype (career before family) territory when this is actually a recent development (not so true 3 years ago) and possibly a quite recent (the Summit) (situational)? 

But doesn't that make sense? Her responsibilities have always been the one excuse she had to indulge her softer side. Now she's an empty-nester with no kids to care for at home, so there's no reason for her to be cooking or being domestic. Philip's not her partner so she has no excuse to nurture him and probably resents him as well. It's supposed to be a change from the way she's been in the past. 

Elizabeth really isn't being a completely bad mother at all by her own definition. She thinks it's her duty as a mother to turn Paige into an agent so that's what she's doing. She's still focusing on her daughter above all else. She doesn't see a conflict between the Cause and being a mother, particularly since she herself has doubled down on believing it's the only thing that matters. (Her own mother sacrificed her completely too.)

Philip is the one person who has noticed her terrible state but I don't know that the kids necessarily would. They never noticed when Philip was wandering around losing weight, pale with circles under his eyes and mad scientist hair. Paige, especially, has a habit of relating to adults as powerful people who exist more to relate to her than have their own lives. (Not that she's never giving to them, but even then it tends to be more self-consciously responsible and mature than seeing the adult as vulnerable.)  Henry isn't even at home and Elizabeth's always had a problem relating to him that much. 

To me it doesn't seem like it's about Elizabeth being a bad wife and mother. It's about Elizabeth choosing darkness, period. It's bigger than just her duties or behavior with her family. That's just one symptom of her cutting herself from humanity in general. She's getting all her motivation from the cause and it shows. She's not even motivated by a revolutionary idealism or fervor, it's just resentment and hatred and fear. She keeps moving the line she won't cross. The stuff she's trying to get is important enough that Paige can be put in danger. Maybe Philip can sleep with a girl he relates to as a father-figure. 

Philip's going through the same thing, but it's softer for him because his choice was about life. But he's still missing the meaning that spying brought to his life. It's not just that he's drowning in debt, it's that he doesn't get satisfaction from money for money's sake. He does want to offer something good to the world (like he said to Kimmy). He didn't feel like he was doing that spying, but I think he gets that from what Oleg's trying to do.

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

So, reverse that.  They are CIA.  If the woman gave up on the USA, and not longer helped her partner, and indeed decided the USSR was the better option, and put her male partner in danger by having him have to do all the missions alone?  If the MALE partner was loyal to the USA and fighting the good fight to keep nukes and other dangerous weapons from Soviet Hands, while the female CIA agent went line dancing and refused to help her country at all...

 

I don't think that's an accurate description of the situation, though, to say the woman's abandoned the USA and is letting the man protect the USA from nukes on his own. The real situation is that the woman wanted to go back to the USA because she felt that the work they were doing was not making the world a better place, that it was immoral and betrayed the values she believe in. She's the hero questioning corrupt masters instead of just following orders. 

The guy can't face life without the enemy so they stay. The woman's making the best of a life there--which she can do because she recognizes the common humanity. She's got nice people she works with, enjoys going out dancing etc. The guy, meanwhile, become more and more jingoistic, growing more hostile to everything Russian, even when it's manifesting in their own children. He's even hostile to things he sees happening in the USA when it contradicts his nostalgia-fueled fantasies of it. The threats that justify his own violence are often not there.

I think plenty of American audiences would absolutely root for the compassionate retired-CIA agent who loves her country but doesn't hate the USSR--especially when she agrees to a secret mission of her own for peace--and see the guy as part of the problem. 

The way this conflict has shaken down so far Elizabeth is allied with some powerful people in the USSR, but the main allies we see her with are Claudia (decades in the USA, felt a bit alienated in the USSR) and Paige (entire life in the USA). On Philip's side are three Russian characters who've all been characterized as living in and loving the country and wanting it to be better.

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Then P just unloads on Henry, right before his game that day, that he's probably not going to be in his favorite school ever for his senior year, WITHOUT even trying to work it out with the financial aid office or mortgage company.  What about selling the sports car?  There are ways to drum up money.  Just cold, imo.  However, Henry does act rather obnoxious.  But, can you blame him?  

 

I didn't think Henry was obnoxious. But I don't really think it would have helped for Philip to put it off because Henry has a game. He always has a game. It doesn't seem like the problem is that Philip is holding on to material things rather than pay Henry's tuition. The car's fairly old now. It's not going to give him 3 semesters of tuition.

I know we're not seeing him begging the school etc., but I think that's because that's not the point. It would be all the more boring having to watch him try to raise money that way. They just, imo, want to put Philip in a situation where he's disillusioned with capitalism. Maybe he'll come up with a crazy solution to it, but we won't see it unless it's interesting. Right now I think we're just meant to accept that Philip either has this in his budget or he doesn't. It's not about him checking the couch cushions for change.

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I just had this odd feeling that Philip just let people down last night and I am P fan.  While E has her quirks (wink. wink. lol), he really sold her out with Oleg. 

But that was the choice. I mean, this isn't Elizabeth's plan. She's following orders. Oleg wants to know what she's being ordered to do because that's the plot against the summit and Gorbachev. If Philip isn't going to tell Oleg what he knows then he's on the side of the hard-liners, period. It's not about Elizabeth, it's about what the hardliners are doing. That's what Philip's against, so why try to make Oleg pry? Either he thinks the plot against Gorbachev is wrong or not. Philip picked an ideological position and committed to it.

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did someone tell Paige to take pictures with her purse or was that her being spontaneous? 

She was sent in there. She had no idea what exactly she was doing, since that was, iirc, the guy Elizabeth's spying on for Mexico City. 

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, she is very good, and she's been doing the job for a very long time.  Philip was very, very good too.  It's a very difficult posting, away from home, friends, family, adjusting to a completely new world.  In the first episode of the series we hear Claudia tell them "things are going to get much harder now" and more ramped up, so perhaps it didn't used to be quite this hectic for either of them.

I agree, and that's probably why Philip has to sleep with her now, more reason for Kimmie to come home on the weekends.  She will be in love.

I agree with all of this.

I think the FBI, military, and local police being stretched very thin trying to follow all of the Russians and Summit activity, along with the DC being known for murders could, logically, be the reason the General's suicide wasn't investigated more thoroughly. 

It's REALLY getting old having Elizabeth killing so many people.  I have to think that will be part of her downfall here.

That's my biggest issue with Paige, and one the time jump doesn't cover at all.  WHY would an American girl be willing to commit treason?  For the USSR?  In WHAT reality?  That's the cheat of the time jump I just can't accept, and they could at least do small scenes explaining that one.

Because it's fucking HUGE.

Also, the disappearing and reappearing extra garage doors bug the shit out of me.  They actually live in a Tri Plex, that whole house isn't theirs.  I think this show was on a strict budget in the beginning, and they just picked a house the show could afford.  The floor plan doesn't jive either.

The house has been jarring for me from the beginning.  For example, when someone pulls in the driveway blocking the other two garage doors, it ALWAYS takes me out of the moment.  "Park somewhere else!  Your Tri-Plex neighbors won't be able to get in or out of their garages!"

Exactly.

Also, while I agree it's time for some follow up in several ways, Paige reading the papers, the stretched thin law enforcement putting the obvious similarities together about the deaths?

I kind of think we are about to see all of that happen.

I find it completely ridiculous that there would be inadequate resources to investigate the shooting death of an Air Force general, and the Russian activity and impending summit would mean it was MORE likely that the shooting death investigation would receive adequate resources.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

The establishment of the travel agency may have preceded their arrival 

That would make sense. They started off as lower level employees and worked their up. Of course that still doesn't answer the question of how big a role (if any) the KGB had in creating or keeping the travel agency in business. 

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Even if they continue to pay Paige's tuition, they could have her move back home for a year.  That's wasted money for her to live off campus, when money is tight.  

Then P just unloads on Henry, right before his game that day, that he's probably not going to be in his favorite school ever for his senior year, WITHOUT even trying to work it out with the financial aid office or mortgage company.    

Did someone tell Paige to take pictures with her purse or was that her being spontaneous? 

Having Paige move back home for a year makes the most sense. The writers really dropped the ball on the scholarship. They just needed one line of dialogue earlier to explain that it was a partial scholarship, not a full ride. If they gave Paige the bag with the camera, I'm guessing they wanted her to actually use it and take pictures. 

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I find it completely ridiculous that there would be inadequate resources to investigate the shooting death of an Air Force general, and the Russian activity and impending summit would mean it was MORE likely that the shooting death investigation would receive adequate resources.

Except the show has made it perfectly clear several times just how far authorities have been stretched by the summit.   They can't even follow all of the staff at the Residentura.  Or even consistently follow Oleg, who pretty suspiciously arrives at a critical time.

It was ruled a suicide as well.  Blind homicide cops maybe?  Because it sure seems like it would  have looked like a scuffle.

I agree that even though the show has set it up, it would seem the General would get more attention.  Maybe it is, and we will find that out.  If not?  Definitely a credibility stretcher.

Maybe CID is still investigating it?  Agencies didn't share information back then, in an almost deliberate way.  I would personally love it if CID or OCI strolls into the FBI next episode and casually drops that they put the "suicide" story out there to fool what may indeed be the KGB, and oh by the way, it's time for us to tell you guys what we've found.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

I liked that Paige decided to test herself with the brother of the congressional intern. It shows gumption. 

I also like Elizabeth’s coat with the weird sleeves. Makes her look like a Futurama character. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Except the show has made it perfectly clear several times just how far authorities have been stretched by the summit.   They can't even follow all of the staff at the Residentura.  Or even consistently follow Oleg, who pretty suspiciously arrives at a critical time.

It was ruled a suicide as well.  Blind homicide cops maybe?  Because it sure seems like it would  have looked like a scuffle.

I agree that even though the show has set it up, it would seem the General would get more attention.  Maybe it is, and we will find that out.  If not?  Definitely a credibility stretcher.

Maybe CID is still investigating it?  Agencies didn't share information back then, in an almost deliberate way.  I would personally love it if CID strolls into the FBI next episode and casually drops that they put the "suicide" story out there to fool what may indeed be the KGB, and oh by the way, it's time for us to tell you guys what we've found.

Dead bodies get attention, period, and the idea that any investigator with a pulse could not see within a short amount of time that it was not a suicide stretches credibility to the breaking point. This is before we get to Paige not mentioning the warehouse murders in the news, in the kitchen conversation.

Really, not following Oleg continuously is a laugher as well.

[Orillia]

I've got to give Paige some credit here. When she walked past the guy's in the hall , she was smart enough to turn her purse around so she could keep taking pictures. Wonder how many years it took her to learn that trick ? 

[Ellaria]

Remembering that these are opinions and suppositions and not fact...

I agree that that it is ridiculous to think that the shooting of an Air Force wouldn't merit investigation. And the shoot-out in the warehouse, too. IMO, either of these incidents - along with the murder of the Naval officer - would merit attention/investigation from some organization and/or the media.

It feels as if something is being held back (something logical, IMO) in order to keep Elizabeth moving from one botched mission to the next. And, perhaps most importantly, keep her mini-me Paige in the dark about Mom's true profession.

[Umbelina]

I think that's exactly why Elizabeth is killing so many in the episodes.

It's going to be, at least partially, how they catch her.

Next episode could be the one where all of that begins to come together.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Ellaria Sand said:

It feels as if something is being held back (something logical, IMO) in order to keep Elizabeth moving from one botched mission to the next. And, perhaps most importantly, keep her mini-me Paige in the dark about Mom's true profession.

I'm not even clear what it would mean if Paige did know the truth. If she'll happily swallow that Mom tried to stop the disturbed man from killing himself but she just couldn't, would she really balk at Mom killing the disturbed man because he was trying to kill her? Would Paige care that Elizabeth murdered a bunch of people in her ill-conceived break in and Paige is an accomplice? 

I guess the problem is that Paige seems to have no real values to offend so it's more about Elizabeth preferring to preserve a version of herself that sounds good? Paige was all about pacifism when she was into Pastor Tim, sure, but she obviously doesn't believe that now. She tossed away any attachment to her own country for whatever reason. She has no moral leg to stand on herself. Why wouldn't she just happily accept Elizabeth killing people, even if she was a bit squeamish about it herself? Her entire moral worldview now seems to just come down to the Cause being good. 

I remember when people used to claim that Paige was the moral voice of the show which always seemed untrue to me even then. Now even more so. Pastor Tim might have connected this to her parents but it was always true.

[SunnyBeBe]

Man, the vomit scene was pretty over the top.  I had to turn my head and I haven't done that through any of the brutal murders.  Even when they folded the girl up in the suitcase.  

[SusanSunflower]

Elizabeth's USSR and/or communism apparently have lost any moral foundation as well in this telling ... As I've written elsewhere and before, Elizabeth's fervent beliefs, her ideology are used to avoid questioning much of anything, much less considering an alternative or solution ... it's "pragmatic" and largely transactional (Elizabeth needs a lot of approval even if it means trash-talking her husband) ... not unlike Paige who apparently also will turn any trick asked for the expectation of praise.  (If she had seduced the intern in furtherance of her own career desire to be an intern I might feel differently,  but I think she was instead (as young woman can be) in awe of the power of her sexuality to get her what she wanted, whatever that might be).  Cue Cat Stevens singing "Wild World" ... 

IOW: Elizabeth would be just as ruthless whatever her "cause" ... and now she has apparently spawned a similarly ruthless amoral mini-me.

Edited April 19, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[kokapetl]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Man, the vomit scene was pretty over the top.  I had to turn my head and I haven't done that through any of the brutal murders.  Even when they folded the girl up in the suitcase.  

Really? Most Hollywood vomit is the actor spitting a little. The volume is rarely there  

The people who made Problem Child 2 scarred me for life. Tons of gooey vomit from a hose everywhere. It also left me with a fear of waking up from surgery disfigured with a 3 inch long nose. 

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Remembering that these are opinions and suppositions and not fact...

I agree that that it is ridiculous to think that the shooting of an Air Force wouldn't merit investigation. And the shoot-out in the warehouse, too. IMO, either of these incidents - along with the murder of the Naval officer - would merit attention/investigation from some organization and/or the media.

It feels as if something is being held back (something logical, IMO) in order to keep Elizabeth moving from one botched mission to the next. And, perhaps most importantly, keep her mini-me Paige in the dark about Mom's true profession.

My point is that the writers need to write this show with physical action having the results demanded. The General's death should be publicly seen as a murder by now, which renders the kitchen conversation in this last episode ridiculous. The fact that the warehouse murders took place early in this episode, and days passed in the episode, without any scene showing that Paige now knows her mother slaughtered three people at the warehouse, is ridiculous.  I suppose if they start the next episode addressing this, that's an improvement, but I'm betting we don't get anything along those lines, and instead we will get Liz (and maybe even Paige!) pursuing a flat out asassination mission, on a fairly trivial target, while the entire region should be swarming with hundreds of law enforcement personnel in response to a murder spree with national security implications! And the trivial assasination target is being housed by the FBI! This is just world-class television nonsense.

[becauseIsaidso]

18 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Philip: "We may not be able to pay Henry's tuition next year."

Elizabeth: "Well, he's your department."

Don't get too invested in your son's life now, Liz!

Oleg's father told Arkady the opposite of what he told Oleg, so he's lying to one of them.

During that conversation I got an ominous feeling that Arkady and Oleg's father are on different sides - which makes Oleg's plight that much more difficult since I don't think he knows that. Oleg's father learned the hard way - when his wife spent five years in the 'camps' and was never the same again - how high the cost of (even mistaken) disloyalty could be.

And now that Stan's face has become a part of  what Elizabeth is to be on the outlook for, I can't yet see how the writer's can come up with even a glimmer of a happy ending for any of the Jennings clan...to bad, cuz I was kinda looking forward to a sorta back in Russia, Philip (at least) meets up with his brother and (especially) Mischa and they all get together for that same dish Elizabeth brought home but had to scrap. For all of Philip's apparent love of the American way of life, I have always seen him as the one who views his American 'perks' as a vacation of sorts, and actually opts to return to the Motherland - I think his loyalty/devotion is on a more mundane, day to day make it better sort than how I read Elizabeth as looking for the BIG MOMENT, the BIG VICTORY in her spycraft that will make her return to Russia that of a publicly honored hero. Too bad cuz I really like both of them, unrepentant killers though they are,

[GingerMarie]

When Philip and Oleg were talking did anyone notice the woman who was walking down the stairs.  I found that a little strange.  Middle of the night, secluded and she walks right up behind 2 men talking.  Just thought it was strange.  Maybe Philip is not as safe as he thinks.  They could be following him.  Henry 'pitching a fit' while talking on the phone was 'I am a big man on campus'.  Nothing more.  That is how kids act when you had to use a pay phone.  Marilyn is looking good.  Page wanted to have sex and it just happens to be with a 12 year old intern. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by GingerMarie
spelling

[becauseIsaidso]

18 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I hope that really isn't the last conversation Oleg and Philip have in person. Because listening to them talk is so interesting. Philip has another voice from home, a place he admittedly, and not surprisingly, finds difficult to remember. And Philip did it- he told Oleg what he knew about Elizabeth's activities. And then he told Elizabeth about the business problems.

Wow. Oleg's whole family knows what he's doing. And his dad is helping. That doesn't sound good. 

I loved Philip trying to get Paige to THINK about what really went on with Renhull. I loved that he got snippy with her. He knows a lot more about the world than she does. That is painfully obvious. She sounds like a kid. And she mentally is one. Philip walking away from the conversation basically said he didn't think he could get either one to get it.

Philip and Elizabeth's brief conversation about Paige was everything. It's like he's the only one really able to think. First Elizabeth tries to say Paige's life was never in danger- then seeing Philip's look- she finally has to say that it won't happen again. Right. Love Philip the skeptic. He's right to be. 

Paige's listening skills are great. She did exactly what Elizabeth said not to do- honeytrapping. Paige certainly does not learn from her mistakes- she does not listen. Again. 

I'm so not interested in Henry being in boarding school or not. Or the financial situation of the travel agency, I'm not sure what the point of this is. Philip needs Elizabeth. The downsides of capitalism. Philip and Elizabeth are both failing. In the grand scheme of this show, it still seems rather irrelevant.

Loved Erica saying she regretted focusing on her art over her husband. In the end, what she left behind didn't matter. The time with him did. That should resonate with Elizabeth, on some level. 

There was a lot of truth in Kimmie/Jim's conversation. It was like getting a brief look in Philip's head. Though I think I need to hear it all again. But, IIRC, it seems to be headed in the direction that he needs to do something, which is something he's working on.

Interesting choice of an end- Philip remembers utter poverty in Russia. 

Typical Paige arrogance - she knows better than ANYONE...I would NOT mind at all if she dies, but I have the sinking feeling that she will survive at the cost of one of her parents', and fear that it would be Philip (NO!)  I am so done with Paige that I almost tune out whenever she comes on screen, but I worry that I could miss something worthwhile from another character if I do.

I think Philip has a greater personal/family-type sentimentality for Russia, whereas Elizabeth's memories and feelings are all rooted in sacrifice (her mother going without food so Elizabeth could have more) and duty (Elizabeth not missing a beat in her training in spite of being raped) and has a more cold and political vibe .

Sorry to say Stan and Aderholt are being made to seem like a modern Keystone Kops - but the sceptic in me thinks we are being lead down the primrose path to when Stan's job of getting the idiots into their new/safe/American homes clashes with the Center's dictum that they be eliminated - which was phrased so forcefully by granny Claudia that I think this will actually be the major do-or-die moment of the finale.

I had rather hoped that when Philip had to give Henry the bad news about not being able to afford the academy for Henry's last year, he would also have told the kid to enjoy it as much as he could, make as many memories as he could, in case it came to that....he really didn't seem to give the kid any silver lining....couldn't he have waited until Henry was home on a break or vacation to dump on the kid? Geez - Henry's only had one misstep in the entire series! Doesn't he get a little more than a phone call?  Geez - I REALLY wish he HAD figured out what his parents were, made his decision to follow them, and they ever knew it until he revealed it....he just strikes me as too smart of a kid to have not come up with 1+1= spy.

[SunnyBeBe]

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

She wasn't exactly subtle about it.  In fact it looked kind of weird.  If she was turning her purse around in order to  dig through it, that would be one thing, but to turn it around and continue to walk with it looked more than a little strange.  The other problem is that she wasn't holding her bag still, so god only knows what she was taking a picture of.

 

That is the type of thing that immediately makes me want to puke.  I can't watch someone else get sick, fake or not.

I thought he came off as whiny.  I expected him to stomp his feet.  It isn't what he said, it is how he said it.  The dude needs to relax. 

He does annoy me, but, he's only on for a few seconds, so, I can endure. I was rooting for Henry to go to that school and he needs to stay there.  I mean, The Center should pay for it, really.  It helps build P & E's cover, it creates more contacts and expands their network of associations, it gives Henry a good basis, if they pursue him for agent work down the road, and it keeps him out of the house, so E and Paige can use the house for spy meetings. lol   But, there is the issue of a paper trail for the funds.  Hmmm.....I'm sure they can figure something out.  In fact, now that E knows of the money trouble, she might take care of it.... in her spare time.

IN fact, when P told E about the money woes at the Travel Agency, to me, it seemed like E sighed on the inside and said under her breath, "ONE MORE DAMNED THING TO ADD TO MY TO DO LIST."   LOL  

Edited April 19, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

During that conversation I got an ominous feeling that Arkady and Oleg's father are on different sides - which makes Oleg's plight that much more difficult since I don't think he knows that. Oleg's father learned the hard way - when his wife spent five years in the 'camps' and was never the same again - how high the cost of (even mistaken) disloyalty could be.

But Oleg's father is being disloyal too. He was presumably the one who pulled strings for the Visa and now he's passing information. He's pretty much stuck on the same side as Arkady for now.

 

2 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

I had rather hoped that when Philip had to give Henry the bad news about not being able to afford the academy for Henry's last year, he would also have told the kid to enjoy it as much as he could, make as many memories as he could, in case it came to that....he really didn't seem to give the kid any silver lining....couldn't he have waited until Henry was home on a break or vacation to dump on the kid?

I think it's like Philip said-there's no good way to tell him. It's not even for sure yet, but he's warning him that the problem exists and he might have to prepare for it. The kid doesn't live at home so they can't talk in person and are used to talking on the phone. I think for them that doesn't feel distant. Plus if Henry's at school he can deal with it in private. I think he was glad he could just hang up the phone and deal with it instead of having to sit there in front of Philip in person. The alternative would have been keeping a secret that was all about Henry every time he talked to him on the phone. Which seems to be a lot.

I thought maybe one reason Henry yelled at the other kids was that he could tell there was something wrong but I'd have to watch it again to see if I'm remembering it wrong.

Edited April 20, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Did someone tell Paige to take pictures with her purse or was that her being spontaneous? 

She was part of a rotation going through the hallway every eight minutes, hoping to catch something on film.  Elizabeth and colleague discussed this in the car.  Every eight minutes, or, as the FBI labels a plan like this, "maybe we'll get lucky". 

[JFParnell]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Man, the vomit scene was pretty over the top.  I had to turn my head and I haven't done that through any of the brutal murders. 

lol. I turned my head for the first volley of vomit but was caught off guard when the next one launched. Reallly don't need to see that. Does it seem like we see way more explicit puking than shows displayed years ago? They ALWAYS show the hurling now. What is with all the vomit?

I did sort of laugh though when Elizabeth was listening to the world series party tape, and it was getting near to some good intel happening in the conversation, and then artist wife starts puking. Liz just groaned and grimaced -- foiled again! First she didn't get the warehouse thingamabob she wanted, and then an inconvenient episode of vomiting spoiled her next plot. (I like seeing Liz's plans thwarted. She's been too successful for too long now -- bout time she experienced the downside of up.)

[dubbel zout]

41 minutes ago, JFParnell said:

I did sort of laugh though when Elizabeth was listening to the world series party tape, and it was getting near to some good intel happening in the conversation, and then artist wife starts puking. Liz just groaned and grimaced -- foiled again!

Same here. But I also thought she was being unrealistic expecting both parties to talk shop (substantial stuff) at a house party. There were a lot of civilians there. We've seen that the negotiating parties are pretty discreet. I can't see why things would suddenly change.

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, JFParnell said:

lol. I turned my head for the first volley of vomit but was caught off guard when the next one launched. Reallly don't need to see that. Does it seem like we see way more explicit puking than shows displayed years ago? They ALWAYS show the hurling now. What is with all the vomit?

This is totally an almost pet peeve of mine. When I was a kid on TV you could count on the person just doubling over out of the shot and hearing a noise. I swear the first big vomit scene was Albert Ingalls on Little House in the Prairie (morphine withdrawal!) and everyone was so grossed out because of course you didn't expect it. Now it's all the time. And sometimes it's on reality shows so it's real.

I admit sometimes showing it is dramatically effective, though. In this case I can understand why they might have thought it was important to show just how humiliated and vulnerable this woman was thanks in no small part to Elizabeth's trying to get to that party. Elizabeth who is not actually a nurse at all and probably had no idea this might happen.

[Clanstarling]

23 hours ago, Shriekingeel said:

Love that Elizabeth’s first thought on fixing the travel agency is a purge. So very Elizabeth.

And very capitalist (says someone who's been laid off a time or two because a company got too big for its britches).

23 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Paige's listening skills are great. She did exactly what Elizabeth said not to do- honeytrapping. Paige certainly does not learn from her mistakes- she does not listen. Again.

I interpreted that entire scene differently than most, it seems. And I'm no Paige fan. I saw her doing what her mother told her - going out because she wanted to go out with the guy. And when looking at the badge at the end of the scene, I thought she looked like she was having second thoughts about the spy business, because it will always infect her relationships in the future and she'll never be able to be "real" with anyone. On the one hand, Mommy's approval, on the other hand, a life of lies. And whatever else she may be, Paige hasn't really been that fond of lies.

[Cthulhudrew]

It feels like Henry already has more storyline this season than he did when he was living in the house and actually performing on the same sets with the rest of the cast.

[Umbelina]

Paige looked very pretty in the bar scenes.  Honestly it's the first time I've noticed that, she seemed relaxed and beautifully young and fresh. 

I agree with others that seeing that guy's badge was disturbing her, it's like it brought everything into focus for her, about what she's doing with her life now.  I don't think she seduced him as a mark, I think she liked him.  Then she sees the badge, and that possibility came back in a rush, or that goal, and she REALLY DIDN'T LIKE it.   (Also, holy cow!  That was legitimate acting on her part, and she did it well!)

Interesting, maybe Paige will try to bail, that would be unexpected.

Another thing that stood out to me was Elizabeth starting to relate to the art, could Elizabeth, at long last, be seeing glimpses of another side of her that she's ignored since she was recruited into the KGB and became all business all the time? 

To someone's comment earlier about Oleg's dad maybe playing both sides here, lying to Arkady?  I really don't think so at all, I had the opposite impression.  His only goal is obviously to keep Oleg safe, so even IF he disagrees with the task, he would never do anything to jeopardize his only living son.  He knows that giving up Arkady would not save Oleg, at all.  I think he's upset that they are in this position, but he will stay true to Oleg here, no matter what he might think.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Umbelina

[AllyB]

How murderous do we think Elizabeth is? Claudia has sent her after the Teacups and she has Marilyn and Norm tracking Stan who will soon be visiting them. So Elizabeth is sure to locate them in the next episode or two. Killing them will be easier than taking them in and Elizabeth won't hesitate to take out a couple of traitors. But what if the cute little seven year old is unexpectedly home at the time? Will she kill him too or falter at the cold blooded murder of a child and leave him to ID her. There is only 6 hours of this show left and with Elizabeth now after the one last case Stan is working for counter-intelligence, this convergence is likely where we finally get the pay-off for the years of Beeman-Jennings interactions.

[JFParnell]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This is totally an almost pet peeve of mine. When I was a kid on TV you could count on the person just doubling over out of the shot and hearing a noise.

Yes! So I'm not alone in thinking it's gotten out of hand. It seems like growing up what you mostly saw, if they showed anything, was someone's backside hunched over and convulsing. Now you get the whole thing face-forward in HD. You know how episodes begin with the warnings: Violence, Language, Nudity, etc.? They should institute a new caution: "P" Puking.

Sorry, all! I promise, no more barf talk! :)