S13.E16: ScoobyNatural

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

 It really doesn’t make sense what’s okay and what isn’t. I rewatched 99 Problems the other day and just cringed hearing Dean say “On a good day, you get to kill a whore.” To me that’s way more offensive than if Dean occasionally said something was bullshit.

That has always rankled me. I always wondered if they really meant "a whore" or "the whore" given it was dealing with the Whore of Babylon which is a totally different context, and maybe Jensen said it wrong and they just left it? Or did they want to make Dean look as awful as possible before he took off on his own or what? It's especially grating since Dean frequents brothels and has always seemed okay and not disrespectful really towards sex workers which makes him saying that just...UGH.

Just one of the 99 reasons I hate that damn episode. LOL  but I digress. 

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

It really doesn’t make sense what’s okay and what isn’t. I rewatched 99 Problems the other day and just cringed hearing Dean say “On a good day, you get to kill a whore.” To me that’s way more offensive than if Dean occasionally said something was bullshit.

Exactly!  When I hear them say something like bullcrap, it actually takes me out of the scene for a second because I can't help but think they would never say that word if not for the censors.  I get that not everyone swears, but considering the lives these guys lead, I think swearing would come pretty naturally to them.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

 It really doesn’t make sense what’s okay and what isn’t. I rewatched 99 Problems the other day and just cringed hearing Dean say “On a good day, you get to kill a whore.” To me that’s way more offensive than if Dean occasionally said something was bullshit.

Weren't they literally dealing with the Whore of Babylon?

[Jeddah]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Weren't they literally dealing with the Whore of Babylon?

Yes.

[bethy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Regardless if you think it was silly or not, canonically, Dean swore in that episode and that episode reflected them on a hunt in their 'actual' lives. Dean tossing out his 'you're "fucking" right in this episode was the same kind of thing. 

The show IMO is reminding us in both cases that these guys really do use that kind of language in a way that network standards don't permit. They couldn't have gotten away with it in the live action stuff but they could since it was in a cartoon and bleeped. 

I, for one, thought that was great!

 

And that’s fine. Except that we see them on hunts in their actual lives every week. And whether it’s network television or not it’s the universe they’re in and with the exception of that one episode they don’t cuss that much. So for me, canonically, in ‘verse, they’re not swearers. 

Our mileage is clearly going to be different on this, though, so no worries. :)

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, bethy said:

And that’s fine. Except that we see them on hunts in their actual lives every week. And whether it’s network television or not it’s the universe they’re in and with the exception of that one episode they don’t cuss that much. So for me, canonically, in ‘verse, they’re not swearers. 

Our mileage is clearly going to

I'm just not following how if canonically we see them swearing in Ghostfacers even if bleeped, and then we see them swear virtually once per episode with "dammit", "son of a bitch", "bitch", "dick" which isn't being used for jerk or other things like "freaking" which is the substitute for "fucking"...that makes them not swearers.

ETA: I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to understand better :)

Edited April 3, 2018 by catrox14

[bettername2come]

For me, the boys not swearing with the two biggies generally doesn't make it impossible that they do sometimes. With the "yes, ma'am" "yes, sir" type manners we get from them sometimes, I can believe they were taught certain manners by John that might limit just how much they they swear/what they say when they do. So, I can believe that yes, Dean enjoyed saying "fucking" when corrupting/educating the Scoobies. And I have no trouble believing they'd cuss at the Ghostfacers the second time they had to deal with them. Although, part of me wouldn't rule out the Ghostfacers editing to add in an unnecessary bleep to their "reality" show where the Winchesters said "freaking" or "crap" for parts of that ep. They have a history of making stuff up for dramatic effect. Although, no arguing that Dean didn't say "fuck me" in that one. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by bettername2come

[bethy]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just not following how if canonically we see them swearing in Ghostfacers even if bleeped, and then we see them swear virtually once per episode with "dammit", "son of a bitch", "bitch", "dick" which isn't being used for jerk or other things like "freaking" which is the substitute for "fucking"...that makes them not swearers.

ETA: I'm not trying to change your mind, just trying to understand better :)

 

I should have said “big swearers.” Yes, they swear, but with the exception of the bleeps in Ghostfacers, they have not said any of the “big” ones, which for me means canonically they don’t say them much. So adding those words in because it would be “realistic” in their world doesn’t track for me. 

I’m fine if you don’t understand me exactly. :) Like I said earlier, I think our mileage is just going to be different.

Edited April 3, 2018 by bethy

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, bethy said:

I’m fine if you don’t understand me exactly. :) Like I said earlier, I think our mileage is just going to be different.

 I understand now that you clarified :). And no, I'm not saying we have to agree. Thanks for answering.

[ILoveReading]

I think I found what Dean was referencing with the Cartwright Twins.

Oh Dean, you naughty boy.

https://twitter.com/twinscartwright?lang=en

Edited April 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

[mertensia]

20 hours ago, Philip said:

. The animation looked average at best, Sam and Dean didn't really look the part, the Scooby cast voices changed, the comedy aspect wasn't as good as I remember and it just overall lasted longer than it should have.

 

Well, you know that at least one of the voice actors has died, yes? And Frank Welker's voice  is going to be different after nearly 50 years.

[Philip]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Well, you know that at least one of the voice actors has died, yes? And Frank Welker's voice  is going to be different after nearly 50 years.

It's been years since I've seen some Scooby Doo so I wasn't aware of the changes that took place.

 

Animated series whether Western or Japanese have certainly taken a hit in the quality department as they look rather cheap and not as much effort as companies used to put back in the day. There are still good drawn shows but not the norm for the majority.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think I found what Dean was referencing with the Cartwright Twins.

Oh Dean, you naughty boy.

https://twitter.com/twinscartwright?lang=en

LOLOL that's funny. 

[Iju]

19 hours ago, Katy M said:

I'm just saying that just because they happen to be blue-collar and a bit "rough" does not automatically make them swearers. And, I fail to see, how them being allowed to swear all the time would make the show higher quality or more entertaining.

it's just that i find it cringe when the TV censors them (specifically meaning dean). like when he said "dude you totally c blocked me" i mean a guy like dean would censor that word? and the innumerable times when things like "that's a load of crap" especially when they are heated it just falls flat.

i don't know if you look at youtube vlogs, but many people nowadays swear and despite what you think i find it offensive, mostly because they are saying some pretty bad swear words and they know their videos are directed towards young children. it's highly irresponsible and i have no respect for channels like that. i would be oh too happy if they censored theirselves how TV censors sam and dean. 

this is totally a reach and "too in depth" of dean's character if you will, but because he and his brother were raised with basically next to no social lives it would also make sense dean would say these type of words/phrases because his life was pretty much uncensored. sam, being the one who is able to adapt to social life quickly and can communicate normally with people, would probably know how to censor himself around people and not rely as heavily on harsh or coarse words as dean would. but because dean is sort of socially awkward and frankly doesn't care about the little social niceties, that would be all the more reason for him to say stuff like this. and it's not just with swearing. the writers have been consistent with his social awkwardness - joking at times when he shouldn't, being too hard on a person when he should be lighter, sometimes just randomly saying something that was in his head he should have kept to himself (dean's line of "He could hump the crap out of your leg" when talking about demon hounds comes to mind), etc. so this would only add to a part of him that is already there.

of course this is just my opinion on the matter and i don't mean to bring up any harsh feelings, i was just expanding on why it's not because of swearing that would make the show better or more tolerant or anything like that, and as i said before i'm not too fond of swearing myself ("what the heck" is my most common phrase). and even for the youtubers i complain about, sometimes they can find ways to censor theirselves, which is no problem at all. it's just usually they don't. so dean and sam's saying of "crap" and using words by their initials isn't so much the problem, it's how it is always said by them. but alas this is TV and we can't get everything we want. the writers have done as much as they can, pushed the wall as hard as they could, and they have done a bang up job on that. no complaints there.

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, Iju said:

this is totally a reach and "too in depth" of dean's character if you will, but because he and his brother were raised with basically next to no social lives it would also make sense dean would say these type of words/phrases because his life was pretty much uncensored. sam, being the one who is able to adapt to social life quickly and can communicate normally with people, would probably know how to censor himself around people and not rely as heavily on harsh or coarse words as dean would. but because dean is sort of socially awkward and frankly doesn't care about the little social niceties, that would be all the more reason for him to say stuff like this.

I disagree completely. They were raised on the road and in crazy circumstances, but they were raised by a strict, military-father (JDM version) and Dean by the kinder, gentler younger John that we met in S4/5. Both guys call people sir and ma'am and speak respectfully most of the time.

Edited April 3, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Iju said:

uncensored. sam, being the one who is able to adapt to social life quickly and can communicate normally with people, would probably know how to censor himself around people and not rely as heavily on harsh or coarse words as dean would. but because dean is sort of socially awkward and frankly doesn't care about the little social niceties, that would be all the more reason for him to say stuff like this.

 I don't quite understand this reading of Dean and I see it a lot. Dean is not socially awkward.   Dean is entirely adaptable to most any social situation. There are just some that he doesn't care about doing the way everyone else does. That's not the same as being socially awkward. He is a bit of a rebel. He is able to censor himself when he chooses and depending on his situation.

IMO, Dean was kind of living out his childhood fantasy with Scooby Doo in this situation.

Edited April 3, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Iju said:

the writers have been consistent with his social awkwardness - joking at times when he shouldn't, being too hard on a person when he should be lighter, sometimes just randomly saying something that was in his head he should have kept to himself (dean's line of "He could hump the crap out of your leg" when talking about demon hounds comes to mind), etc. so this would only add to a part of him that is already there.

Dean uses humor because he's uncomfortable. Some things are crude but not always. Dean is sometimes a bull in a china shop and he's rough and tumble.  But that isn't all that Dean is or will be. He has layers and is complex.

Edited April 3, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I don't quite understand this reading of Dean and I see it a lot. Dean is not socially awkward.   Dean is entirely adaptable to most any social situation. There are just some that he doesn't care about doing the way everyone else does. That's not the same as being socially awkward.

Agree completely! 

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, Iju said:

this is totally a reach and "too in depth" of dean's character if you will, but because he and his brother were raised with basically next to no social lives it would also make sense dean would say these type of words/phrases because his life was pretty much uncensored. sam, being the one who is able to adapt to social life quickly and can communicate normally with people, would probably know how to censor himself around people and not rely as heavily on harsh or coarse words as dean would. but because dean is sort of socially awkward and frankly doesn't care about the little social niceties, that would be all the more reason for him to say stuff like this. and it's not just with swearing. the writers have been consistent with his social awkwardness - joking at times when he shouldn't, being too hard on a person when he should be lighter, sometimes just randomly saying something that was in his head he should have kept to himself (dean's line of "He could hump the crap out of your leg" when talking about demon hounds comes to mind), etc. so this would only add to a part of him that is already there.

No offense but this seems like a rather shallow reading of the brothers and not "in depth" at all IMO. Both brothers have dealt with civilians with tact and sensitivity when the situation calls for it and they can both at times be aggressive when need be. Sure some may say that Dean jokes when he shouldn't; some also would say that Sam is a wet blanket when he should lighten up a bit. There are more layers to both characters than Dean "the coarse, awkward, uncivilized boor" and Sam "the long-suffering gentleman" IMO.

[ahrtee]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I disagree completely. They were raised on the road and in crazy circumstances, but they were raised by a strict, military-father (JDM version) and Dean by the kinder, gentler younger John that we met in S4/5. Both guys call people sir and ma'am and speak respectfully most of the time.

 

Just a thought--I don't think soldiers in the field are respectful and I'm pretty sure there's a hella lot of cursing going on.  They may have been brought up to be polite/respectful to superiors and in social situations, but most of their life was spent "in the field" and that field training came from John.  I don't really think he taught them to be polite when facing monsters.  JMO.

Having said that, I have no problem with the level of profanity on the show, and don't need to hear f-words constantly.  It grates on me when people just sprinkle them in general conversation IRL (because that loses its power), though I don't mind it used "appropriately."  :)   

Edited April 3, 2018 by ahrtee

[Whodunnit]

I found cartoon Dean's lips weird and distracting, but for the most part I enjoyed the episode.

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just a thought--I don't think soldiers in the field are respectful and I'm pretty sure there's a hella lot of cursing going on.  They may have been brought up to be polite/respectful to superiors and in social situations, but most of their life was spent "in the field" and that field training came from John.  I don't really think he taught them to be polite when facing monsters.  JMO.

Having said that, I have no problem with the level of profanity on the show, and don't need to hear f-words constantly.  It grates on me when people just sprinkle them in general conversation IRL (because that loses its power), though I don't mind it used "appropriately."  :)   

That isn't what I said at all though. Of course they aren't going to be polite or respectful to monsters. But I was responding to the idea that Dean is awkward and uncouth,  that he doesn't know how to speak in social situations, etc. I firmly believe John would've taught them to respect their elders, etc. Look how he himself responded to the man that greeted him in the diner, or to his boss on the phone, even when he thought he was being fired. What he, or they, would do and say in a fight isn't the same thing.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

I found cartoon Dean's lips weird and distracting, but for the most part I enjoyed the episode.

I think they put Dean's season one lips on him LOL

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That isn't what I said at all though. Of course they aren't going to be polite or respectful to monsters. But I was responding to the idea that Dean is awkward and uncouth,  that he doesn't know how to speak in social situations, etc. I firmly believe John would've taught them to respect their elders, etc. Look how he himself responded to the man that greeted him in the diner, or to his boss on the phone, even when he thought he was being fired. What he, or they, would do and say in a fight isn't the same thing.

Sorry...I was just responding to that one specific statement, not the general background.  IA Dean isn't awkward and uncouth, but I think he chooses when to be polite and respectful, and it's not automatic.  The examples you gave of John being polite were all *before* he started hunting, and by all accounts he was an obnoxious so-and-so to everyone later.   Dean gives respect when he feels it's earned--John, Bobby, Pastor Jim, some of the priests they've come across, and even Henriksen--but not to everyone.  Being polite to the people you're questioning is just another hunting tool, not necessarily ingrained.  

It's been said many times--Dean fits in.  If he *has* to be polite in order to get answers, he can.  But he's pretty snarky (remember his attitudes towards police and FBI) and can be rude.  But he does know enough to be able to rein it in if need be.  The problems come when he just doesn't give a damn about being nice, and that's when he comes across as uncouth IMO.  

[Pondlass1]

I'm just getting caught up and I have to agree that it didn't look like Dean.  They captured Sam and Castiel pretty much perfectly, but if I didn't hear the voice and see the clothes, I would never have known it was supposed to be Dean Winchester.

Jensen's a very handsome man.  He apparently meets the Da Vinci golden ratio for perfect facial proportions.  So why was he so difficult to capture? 

Anyway a fun episode.  Sometimes we need a lighter episode toward the end of a season to lighten the load.  But this season (and the last) have failed to ramp up much peril or tension.  We've got a gaggle of mustache twirling baddies and the usual dilemma of finding weird stuff for a spell.

When it comes to 'coarse language' I have to smile that we can witness head loppings and guts spurting but Dean is forced to say things like "I couldn't poop for a week".  Heavens to murgatroyd our tender ears should hear the terrible word - shit.

I'm from England where 'Son of a Bitch' is not a popular expression, but I find it extremely insulting... far more insulting than saying 'fuck' actually.

[SueB]

I swear this is not just ‘Pollyanna SueB’ when I say I thought they did a good job with all theee animations.   Maybe it’s because it was Dean’s voice but I saw nothing odd about the way the character looked.   I will say his animated face is a mixture both square jaw hero cartoon face and honestly, some girlish features (lips and eyelashes).  They got the nose right I thought.   Is it the jaw too wide?   What is it for those who don’t see Dean in the animation?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Jensen's a very handsome man.  He apparently meets the Da Vinci golden ratio for perfect facial proportions.  So why was he so difficult to capture? 

I think this style of animation doesn`t lend itself well to really getting his likeness across. It actually does work better for Chibi/Manga-style. 

His face is rounder, big eyes, full lips. While he is undoubtedly manly, it is more of a Disney princess face in some way. The Scooby animation had the Scooby characters more simplistic and with Dean they pretty much just tried to give him voluptous lips. But if you put those on a squarish face and do nothing about the eyes, the end result doesn`t really add up that well.        

[ILoveReading]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think this style of animation doesn`t lend itself well to really getting his likeness across. It actually does work better for Chibi/Manga-style. 

His face is rounder, big eyes, full lips. While he is undoubtedly manly, it is more of a Disney princess face in some way. The Scooby animation had the Scooby characters more simplistic and with Dean they pretty much just tried to give him voluptous lips. But if you put those on a squarish face and do nothing about the eyes, the end result doesn`t really add up that well.        

There is this sculpture that posts pics of his work on twitter regularly.  He does amazing work.   I read a comment from him the other day that Jensen is the hardest to capture.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

There is this sculpture that posts pics of his work on twitter regularly.  He does amazing work.   I read a comment from him the other day that Jensen is the hardest to capture.

Is it because his face is technically perfect according to Da Vinci?

What's weird to me is how much fan art gets Jensen's face quite well. I wonder what the difference is.

[Iju]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I disagree completely. They were raised on the road and in crazy circumstances, but they were raised by a strict, military-father (JDM version) and Dean by the kinder, gentler younger John that we met in S4/5. Both guys call people sir and ma'am and speak respectfully most of the time.

 

yes but that's to their elders, not people around their own ages (of course) as far as i know, at least (i'm not very far into yet so i can be wrong), dean didn't have any friends around his age growing up even while he and sam were jumping schools.

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I don't quite understand this reading of Dean and I see it a lot. Dean is not socially awkward.   Dean is entirely adaptable to most any social situation. There are just some that he doesn't care about doing the way everyone else does. That's not the same as being socially awkward. He is a bit of a rebel. He is able to censor himself when he chooses and depending on his situation.

IMO, Dean was kind of living out his childhood fantasy with Scooby Doo in this situation.

 

i still believe he is socially awkward but not to the degrees of what i think people are putting out there. it's only cracks, it's not massive. yes he is able to censor himself, in fact i believe he stops himself from saying something in this episode in front of the kids (i could be wrong), but in the end says words that have to be bleeped out, lol.

agreed completely on the last part though, which is why i didn't find his daphne attraction as creepy as other have found. he was just so into his role.

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean uses humor because he's uncomfortable. Some things are crude but not always. Dean is sometimes a bull in a china shop and he's rough and tumble.  But that isn't all that Dean is or will be. He has layers and is complex.

 

i don't see how someone growing up away from society and has to learn how to adapt to it and sometimes slips up because of it isn't layered and complex. 

also i wasn't talking about comedy only, i also said he says random things "normal" people would not say in public and is heavier on people, and thus why sam has to step in and use his puppy effect to help the person/people along.

19 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

No offense but this seems like a rather shallow reading of the brothers and not "in depth" at all IMO. Both brothers have dealt with civilians with tact and sensitivity when the situation calls for it and they can both at times be aggressive when need be. Sure some may say that Dean jokes when he shouldn't; some also would say that Sam is a wet blanket when he should lighten up a bit. There are more layers to both characters than Dean "the coarse, awkward, uncivilized boor" and Sam "the long-suffering gentleman" IMO.

sam is just quicker at adapting to social life, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have his problems at well. in fact it is great that you bring up how he tends to be a wet blanket at times because that very well could be his problem just as i explained dean's. they aren't the same person. in fact, i argue this isn't a shallow vision or discussion at all, but rather believing the guys who barely knew anyone outside of their two "fathers" (john and ofc bobby) growing up and are next to normal if not completely normal as adults is shallow.

i honestly am bewildered as this is the second time people are insisting they are layered and complex because i don't find this isn't layered at all but rather adds to them. i think people are taking their childhood for granted, it's the most important part of a person's development, and i strongly believe that at least some of their, how shall i say, "rusty" parts of their personalities is due to that. i'm not trying to simplify the brothers in the least. agreed, dean is more than a "boor" and sam is more than a "long suffering gentleman", i never implied that and am sorry for the misunderstanding of that.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Iju

[gonzosgirrl]

I think the disconnect is that you keep mentioning their childhood, but it only seems to have affected Dean negatively, while Sam apparently rose above it. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
missing word

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Iju said:

sam is just quicker at adapting to social life, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have his problems at well. in

What examples do you have that suggests that Sam is quicker to adapt to social life? I mean even in this episode he wanted to be away from the Scooby Gang ASAP and Dean couldn't wait to hang out with them and not just for Daphne reasons which tells me Dean is more than happy to be amongst people he considers his friends. 

Since you haven't actually watched the show to this point of this episode, which must be weird to watch something kind out of context, but I digress. that will show just how much Dean is socially not awkward that I won't spoil for you at this point.

Dean talks to just about any human being that comes his way. He likes hanging out at bars and playing pool. He likes to socialize when he's out and about. He's quick witted, charming and not aloof.  IMO Sam is much more aloof even if he's being nice on the surface.  Dean has been sent back in time and adapted to 1973 before he was born.

Dean was sent into the future and adapted pretty quickly to that situation. Dean is pretty much all about adaptation of his life on the road. Sam is much more too himself than Dean IMO.  

 

16 minutes ago, Iju said:

. i think people are taking their childhood for granted, it's the most important part of a person's development, and i strongly believe that at least some of their, how shall i say, "rusty" parts of their personalities is due to that.

I think once you get further along in the series you can go to the All Seasons thread and the Bitch v Jerk thread and you'll see that NO ONE  in this community has taken the boys childhood for granted.  There is extensive, deep and IMO rather profound discussions about how they were raised and what affect that has had on them both.

[SueB]

I don't think either boys were socially awkward in this episode.  I think Dean immediately went into a combination of cosplay/fanboy mode and Sam was more "we really need to be people again" mode.  Both are reasonable IMO.  Given all the shit they've experienced, Dean's comfort to let it "play out" is not unreasonable.  Conversely, they were CARTOONS.  Knowing they could get back to being 3-D people again is a reasonable high priority.  

Honestly, if I was suddenly put on the Starship Enterprise, even knowing I needed to get back to my family, I'd probably be more inclined to explore a bit.  I think if Sam was suddenly transported to the library at Hogwarts, he'd drag his feet.  Even if he was two dimensional on a movie screen.  

Dean's engagement with Daphne is what happens when you meet a crush for "real".  Add that normal awkwardness combined with her being his tween-age love and he regressed a bit (because that's when she 'mattered' to him).  But Dean's "game" with 2-D Daphne was never going to go anywhere.  That's not how she's written.  Velma's both available in the Scooby series and perhaps more adventurous in the "weird" area.  I could see her reacting to Sam.  Sam wasn't awkward with Velma so much as clueless.  He was focused on getting home.  And honestly, he KNEW she was a cartoon, he wasn't thinking of Velma in any sort of romantic way.

[catrox14]

After a couple of re-watches, I've decided that this episode is all about Dean's crappy  childhood and how much Scooby Doo gave him comfort, respite, and friends in those nights when he was a kid taking care of another kid who may or may not have been as into Scooby as he was.  I tend to forget that Dean is almost 4 years older than Sam and that's a bit of a gap for what they might jointly enjoy.

I think that's why Daphne was curvier than usual because that's how Dean thought of her. That's why Dean was fondly tying Cas to Scooby in his screwy way. His loyal friend and companion. That's why I think he was so competitive with Fred because he saw something of himself in Fred and that Dean of course didn't get that it was him because of his self-worth issues at times. I mean Dean himself is the guy with the can-do attitude and perfect hair. And then he decided he really liked Fred after all and got himself an ascot to be the Fred. Sure some of it was for Daphne but mostly I think this was all about Dean getting a day to play with his friends.

So for me, this episode plays quite differently when I see it that way and for me, that makes it better.

Edited April 4, 2018 by catrox14

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

mostly I think this was all about Dean getting a day to play with his friends.

I really like this statement and I agree!

[ILoveReading]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've decided that this episode is all about Dean's crappy  childhood and how much Scooby Doo gave him comfort, respite, and friends in those nights when he was a kid taking care of another kid who may or may not have been as into Scooby as he was.  I tend to forget that Dean is almost 4 years older than Sam and that's a bit of a gap for what they might jointly enjoy.

I agree with this.  Someone on my twitter timeline pointed out that the Scooby Gang was Deans' version of a Zanna.  They gave him comfort and a sense of security he didn't have otherwise. 

It was a fantasy for him, where the bad guy was always caught, no one left and no one got hurt.   I can see the appeal for him. 

The best thing about the episode is that fantasy wasn't ruined.  He enjoyed his time in cartoon land, and he got to preserve their innocence.

[Iju]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What examples do you have that suggests that Sam is quicker to adapt to social life? I mean even in this episode he wanted to be away from the Scooby Gang ASAP and Dean couldn't wait to hang out with them and not just for Daphne reasons which tells me Dean is more than happy to be amongst people he considers his friends. 

nah i wasn't referring to this episode, i was just saying from that person's example.

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Since you haven't actually watched the show to this point of this episode, which must be weird to watch something kind out of context, but I digress. that will show just how much Dean is socially not awkward that I won't spoil for you at this point.

 

yeah that was what i was coming here to say. it's unfortunate that i can't really discuss this further because i don't know a lot of what has happened, so i have no choice but to bow out for now. so i will just leave both of our opinions on the table here and hope to make some other discussion elsewhere when i have more under my belt. besides this is slightly (or way off, whichever way you want it) off topic.

just for the record though, all of what i said was just of all the evidence and facts i have gathered on my current journey, in no way am i discounting anyone else's points. so with that said lastly farewell, i'll see you in a couple months lol

[Bergamot]

10 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree with this.  Someone on my twitter timeline pointed out that the Scooby Gang was Deans' version of a Zanna.  They gave him comfort and a sense of security he didn't have otherwise. 

It was a fantasy for him, where the bad guy was always caught, no one left and no one got hurt.   I can see the appeal for him. 

The best thing about the episode is that fantasy wasn't ruined.  He enjoyed his time in cartoon land, and he got to preserve their innocence.

I agree as well.

I have watched the Scooby-Doo cartoons before with my nephew when he was young, but I never loved them, and seeing these characters evoked no particular emotional connection for me. Nostalgia can be a very powerful force, but only if it is something to which you have a personal attachment. If the TV show they were trapped in had been one I myself loved as a child, I am sure that I would have been over the moon with excitement, but that aspect of it was missing for me.

The reason I still liked the episode is that it used Dean's attachment to the cartoon and his feelings about the characters, and tied the story into the story of Dean's childhood. I may not care about Scooby-Doo, but I care about Dean, and so it worked for me.
 

[DittyDotDot]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

I swear this is not just ‘Pollyanna SueB’ when I say I thought they did a good job with all theee animations.   Maybe it’s because it was Dean’s voice but I saw nothing odd about the way the character looked.   I will say his animated face is a mixture both square jaw hero cartoon face and honestly, some girlish features (lips and eyelashes).  They got the nose right I thought.   Is it the jaw too wide?   What is it for those who don’t see Dean in the animation?

I thought the animation was just fine. I wouldn't say they captured Jared or Misha any better than Dean, but I could tell who they were--and not just from their voices--and that's what's important here, IMO. Sure, Jensen would probably be easier to capture in a different style of animation, but this wasn't an artistic study of Jensen and they had to work in the style of Scooby Doo. IMO, the animators did a fantastic job.

[Myrelle]

54 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I agree as well.

I have watched the Scooby-Doo cartoons before with my nephew when he was young, but I never loved them, and seeing these characters evoked no particular emotional connection for me. Nostalgia can be a very powerful force, but only if it is something to which you have a personal attachment. If the TV show they were trapped in had been one I myself loved as a child, I am sure that I would have been over the moon with excitement, but that aspect of it was missing for me.

The reason I still liked the episode is that it used Dean's attachment to the cartoon and his feelings about the characters, and tied the story into the story of Dean's childhood. I may not care about Scooby-Doo, but I care about Dean, and so it worked for me.
 

The bolded part is why I thought that *I* would be over the moon for it, too.

But I wasn't. I liked it for the same reason as you, but there was still too many of Dabb's fingerprints all over it for me to be as gaga over it as most appear to be, I guess.

All I could think while watching the whole thing is that the cartoon aspect will likely make it a big hit, but it's doing absolutely nothing for me.

It has been awhile since I watched one of these older cartoons though, so maybe it's simply that I've outgrown them and never even realized it.

I DO wish that Dabb and Singer would take note that even within the limitations of this kind of animation, these writers still gave us a better script than his and his team have given us in almost two whole seasons now. And that, IMO, the script was more along the lines of one of the few bright spots  that they did give us in the episode Regarding Dean from last season.

IOW, I wish that Dabb would take note that when he and his people explore the Dean character more and depict him as more than just the clown and/or the "other brother" on this show, both critics AND the fandom will see it and notice and appreciate the entire show more. JMO.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 They got the nose right I thought.   Is it the jaw too wide?   What is it for those who don’t see Dean in the animation?

Dean was too big all around. He was taller and hulkier than he really is. And he kind of had a block head. Jensen's face is more oval and more slender with a clearly defined jawline. If they would have slimmed Dean's face it would have looked more like him. The lips don't match Jensen's current lips which have thinned a bit as  happens during the aging process. They used Dean's s1 lips IMO. 

[Pondlass1]

I agree with @catrox14 post above. He did have a square block head, and the lips were wrong.  

I just found it interesting that Sam and Cas facial expressions were captured fairly well, but they couldn't quite nail the handsome Dean.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I agree with @catrox14 post above. He did have a square block head, and the lips were wrong. 

IMO, Jensen. and Dean, have such a unique voice even if he pitches Dean to a lower register, it still matches in general which I don't think the animation was able to capture because Dean didn't look at all like Dean. Which is really unfortunate, especially in those softer moments like him being distressed that Scooby could die, the animators couldn't capture the inner life and expressions that infuses Jensen's acting. Thankfully, Jensen's voice work as Dean made up for it and when I closed my eyes or wasn't looking at the screen, I could picture Dean easily. .  

Edited April 5, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

Lord Mesa got closer to Dean than the animators did (IMO). Are those Velma's glasses Sam is wearing? :)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lord Mesa got closer to Dean than the animators did (IMO). Are those Velma's glasses Sam is wearing? :)

So wait, is Lord Mesa implying that Dean is calling Velma a dog for kissing Sam? Which means Dean is a dog for trying to get with Daphne? I don't get his joke here.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So wait, is Lord Mesa implying that Dean is calling Velma a dog for kissing Sam? Which means Dean is a dog for trying to get with Daphne? I don't get his joke here.

I’m assuming they mean it in the “horn dog” sense rather than literally calling her (and himself) a dog. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So wait, is Lord Mesa implying that Dean is calling Velma a dog for kissing Sam? Which means Dean is a dog for trying to get with Daphne? I don't get his joke here.

I think so, yes, although being familiar with LM, I don't think he was implying the Dean part of the joke at all. I also don't think he meant it as an insult towards Velma, more of a light hearted, admiration/high five thing. JMO.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think so, yes, although being familiar with LM, I don't think he was implying the Dean part of the joke at all. I also don't think he meant it as an insult towards Velma, more of a light hearted, admiration/high five thing. JMO.

Gotcha. Thanks. Fair enough. I can see that reading.

[bethy]

I assumed Dean was calling Sam the dog in that cartoon since Sam had apparently made out with Velma. 

For instance, from "Beyond the Mat":

• Sam [looking around]: You know, I remember the Top Notch shows being grander, you know? Top-notch.
• Dean: Yeah. Well, you drink enough, it’ll be just like old times.
• Rio exits the ring. She spots Sam and smiles and waves to him.
• Dean [looking at Sam in disbelief]: Rio? You dog.
• Sam: Oh, shut up. Dude, we met at the wake. She’s nice.

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, bethy said:

I assumed Dean was calling Sam the dog in that cartoon since Sam had apparently made out with Velma. 

For instance, from "Beyond the Mat":

• Sam [looking around]: You know, I remember the Top Notch shows being grander, you know? Top-notch.
• Dean: Yeah. Well, you drink enough, it’ll be just like old times.
• Rio exits the ring. She spots Sam and smiles and waves to him.
• Dean [looking at Sam in disbelief]: Rio? You dog.
• Sam: Oh, shut up. Dude, we met at the wake. She’s nice.

Knowing Lord Mesa though, I would bet he was talking to Velma. And look at the sly smirk on her face. Dean would totally give her props as a fellow dog. :)