Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[BkWurm1]

45 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

If they did lose their minds and do that, though, I think it would end up being with Dinah, no matter how out of the blue that is.  Not saying that as a reassurance - I know that's no comfort whatsoever.  I'm just kind of thinking "out loud" so to speak.  I can't see them ever putting Oliver back together with any version of Laurel.  SA and KC just do not work at all - there's a reason they killed it off in the first place.

Agreed.

 

45 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I am curious to see whether they keep KC around after this season.  I'm not trying to endorse or promote any rumors by saying this, but I have always thought that AK was one of KC/Laurel's main supporters - MG not so much.  With him gone, I do wonder what KC's future with the show is

Yeah, I tend to think she'd not be a regular after this season one way or the other but depending where her character ends might make the difference on if she's ever seen from again.  

[Chaser]

Finishing up a rewatch of Underneath. I hope for some fun married sexy times. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

On 1/5/2018 at 3:05 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I heartily endorse everything on your list except the first one because as much as MG can drive me nuts, he's the devil we know and it's too likely a new person would come in and want to put their own stamp on the show which the easiest thing to do I fear would be them coming in and deciding to make canon happen and in order to do that at this point it would mean not just a horrible end point but undoing and destroying anything that I love about the show and I'm just not brave enough to ever risk wishing for a new person. 

That said, I think it's likely that unless Arrow ends at season 7 MG will leave to concentrate on other projects.  I'm currently rooting for Mericle to retain the top spot on her own.  Even a new co-producer worries me.  Even if they promote from within.  Most of the time I try not to borrow trouble but that's the direction I could see it coming from.    

I should add a caveat to my list that the new showrunner MUST be an Olicity and OTA fan and would endeavor to bring back the glory days of late S1 and early S2 with focus back on Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. Must not forget that Felicity and Diggle are friends and that friendship be shown. And all that jazz :)

Honestly, I'm bored with the stories Arrow is telling right now. I feel like the production needs to be shaken up. The story telling and story choices are just boring and repetitive and there's not enough of Olicity and OTA for me to gloss over the stuff I don't find entertaining.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

If I had my way, the noobs would keep their team and the only reconciliation would be the OTA occasionally calling them in like subcontractors to boost their numbers for some fight. Go in, do the job and then go their separate ways.  

They should totally do this. Arrow has a very deep bench, they should line up guest stars for occasional episodes. Spread them out so they can have Masks every few episodes and in between keep OTA as the core.

Helena/Huntress, Nyssa, Human Target, Speedy, Arsenal, Slade (even if Deathstroke is off the table), Constantine, Vixen, Lyla, Wild Dog, Black Canary, Curtis (I refuse to use his code name).

Plus they could always invent some back story where Oliver met some mask during his 5 years away (that we didn't see) to introduce a new character. 

I wish they'd move in the direction for S7. Go back to a smaller main cast and bring in occasional guest stars to fill the mask quota.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

They should totally do this. Arrow has a very deep bench, they should line up guest stars for occasional episodes. Spread them out so they can have Masks every few episodes and in between keep OTA as the core.

Helena/Huntress, Nyssa, Human Target, Speedy, Arsenal, Slade (even if Deathstroke is off the table), Constantine, Vixen, Lyla, Wild Dog, Black Canary, Curtis (I refuse to use his code name).

Plus they could always invent some back story where Oliver met some mask during his 5 years away (that we didn't see) to introduce a new character. They could also pull from.

I wish they'd move in the direction for S7. Go back to a smaller main cast and bring in occasional guest stars to fill the mask quota.

This is what I've wanted for a long time. Instead of having all these masks just there in the bunker all the time, just call them when they're needed. 

[tangerine95]

Yeah I never understood why they didn't have a few masks be recurring instead of this everyone is in the field all the time thing.Because while it makes sense to have a bigger team now when it's a group of villains,that's not usually the case and Oliver and Digg could handle it.I always thought it was weird that they're insisting on a 6 people team where 5 people are fighters when this isn't a ensemble show.You can tell they struggle with group fight scenes and giving everyone something to do.

[statsgirl]

If you were a writer in the Arrow writers room and given the task of redeeming the n00bs, how would you do it?  Could you do it?

[tangerine95]

I think the best thing they can do is just accept that some characters in the story are just sidekicks and can't have equal status because it's a single lead show.I feel like every season there's some storyline with a new member who wants equal say even tho they've been there a season or are just newly trained.I don't get why because I think that's not possible to pull off and shouldn't be done when you have characters who've been there so much longer compared to season 5 additions.So they can just start writing the newbies like they did Roy imo after they make them apologize and grovel.But honestly I think it's kinda too late and they need to be rid of at least one of them if not all 3 ideally,3 new people and a 6 people team is kinda crazy.Like does even LoT have that many lol

[Mellowyellow]

Well considering the writers room seems hell bent on destroying them, I am quite intrigued as to how this will play out.

If it were me I'd have them come back to OTA grovelling! Something along the lines of:

We are so sorry we were petulant and arrogant. We don't know what we're doing and are obviously inferior to your awesomeness but we were super jealous of you and wanted to shine and be as important as you so we chucked a massive hissy fit at you even though you gave us important intel and Oliver was prepared to take us back with a clean slate. We confess that we only formed our own team to get back at you not through any actual desire to help the city since we peaced out for a few weeks while you were working hard to save the city. We will endeavour to change and be decent rational people from now on and will happily accept being the B Team.

That is only the generic group grovelling! I expect extra grovelling speeches from all 3 of them for the seperate asshole things they each did but since I don't actually give a flying fig about them I can't be assed to put effort into typing what they should say individually. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think they should just jettison them as useless flotsam.

But that’s just me.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

If you were a writer in the Arrow writers room and given the task of redeeming the n00bs, how would you do it?  Could you do it?

Well, let's see ... Oliver had to jump in front of a bullet as an apology to Digg. I wouldn't mind Curtis using his T-spheres to protect Felicity, leaving him vulnerable and mortally injured. BC can use her sonic scream to give Diggle a chance to escape a collapsing building but then gets buried herself with no chance of surival. And lastly, Wild Dog can go down in a hail of bullets protecting Mayor Oliver. WD lives, after months of excruciating therapy and then leaves with Zoe.

I kid. Maybe.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

If you were a writer in the Arrow writers room and given the task of redeeming the n00bs, how would you do it?  Could you do it?

They'd have to individually come to understand what the bigger reasons were behind their behavior and apologize.  Let's start with Curtis.  

He was a big supporter of Oliver and Felicity's relationship UNTIL they got married and it was like he got triggered.  How could Oliver Queen, that emotionally messed up guy be in a stable marriage when he couldn't make his work?  Why does Oliver get to have it all while poor old Curtis loses everything? 

He'was already blaming the team for Paul leaving him (as opposed to Paul leaving him because Curtis chose to be on the team) and then Oliver and Felicity dared to question his loyalty after he'd given up everything for them?  It's not actually logical and if he could realize that he'd been looking to place blame anywhere but on himself for his marriage falling apart, he could stop resenting Oliver and realize that getting spied on wasn't really what he was losing it over.  And then maybe he could ask for forgiveness and thus self-aware, no longer be an asshat.  

 

Dinah would have to realize that she let her emotions be manipulated by Vince.  Letting him plant questions about the team in her head even before Oliver questioned her.  Also, she needs to figure out why she keeps trying to get people to keep secrets and tell her secrets. Maybe acknowledge that she's so freaking lonely that she tries to bind people to her through secrets since after spending years alone on a quest for vengeance and years before that never being allowed to be herself, always playing a part undercover, that she lost the talent for something as fundamental as knowing how to make actual friends without the strings. 

Her loneliness is something I saw on her "date" with Vincent.  She was just babbling and seemed so happy and light but it was all fake and I did in the scene feel sorry for her, for how alone she still was.  She doesn't seem to know how to make connections outside of team loyalty.  Both on Team Arrow and in her job.  Like she needs the structure and the hierarchy to make her feel comfortable.  And then within it, she tries to spin or share secrets to deepen the bond only to be wildly disillusioned to find she was alone in thinking she'd earned something more through her methods. 

She also seemed to think that because Oliver had seen something in her and wanted her on the team, that it was some kind of proof of his undying faith in her even though it couldn't have been more clear that he was just working out his own issues.  Her secretive nature also is something she would have to acknowledge kept her from trusting Oliver and the team with the truth about why she was seeing Vincent.  Instinct had her clamming up when if she had explained, I think they would have listened.  

Last year Dinah wasn't like this.  Last year she just seemed happy to have a purpose and a support system around her as she set up her life.  She wasn't playing games or trying to control the situations.  She just seemed to like being in a group.  She was more like big sister to Curtis and Rene, relaxed and just going with the flow but this year she's an emotional mess.  Maybe that's what I need from her.  That she realizes that she thought she'd worked through her issues but really, it was only after she started feeling comfortable with the team that her insecurities really started showing up. 

I think I could forgive and forget Dinah's behavior if she opened up about her issues and realized that her need for control gets in her way of actually making friends, the kind of deeper friendship that earns actual trust, not just secrets creating a false sense of intimacy.  

As for Rene - I think he is a lost cause for me.  

Edited January 20, 2018 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I think Rene is a lost cause too. 

He gave Oliver up when he was being tortured (which is a good enough reason, I suppose), and then when his daughter was on the line (which is also a good reason, I suppose, considering we don't know exactly what Watson said to him. Like, did she threaten to mess with his court case if he didn't cooperate?). He didn't do any of it with malice. But there will always be a good reason, one that you can justify away and now that Rene's done this twice, I would never trust him again. 

I don't think it makes him a bad person, but he has proven twice now that he can't be trusted as part of a team. So he shouldn't be on one.

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I think the best thing they can do is just accept that some characters in the story are just sidekicks and can't have equal status because it's a single lead show.I feel like every season there's some storyline with a new member who wants equal say even tho they've been there a season or are just newly trained.

Didn't Laurel have the same complaint back in S4 about how Oliver never treated her as an equal? I can't remember if it was about vigilante-ing or just in general. 

[statsgirl]

IIRC, it was about being on the team when she was having the fight with Oliver in the very public place of a hospital hallway but it seemed like it referred to in general, as if the fact that because they grew up together and Laurel seemed to be the one making plans for them, she should be equal with him now. It seems like Laurel never met a situation she felt she shouldn't master.

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

They'd have to individually come to understand what the bigger reasons were behind their behavior and apologize.  Let's start with Curtis.  

He was a big supporter of Oliver and Felicity's relationship UNTIL they got married and it was like he got triggered.  How could Oliver Queen, that emotionally messed up guy be in a stable marriage when he couldn't make his work?  Why does Oliver get to have it all while poor old Curtis loses everything? 

He'was already blaming the team for Paul leaving him (as opposed to Paul leaving him because Curtis chose to be on the team) and then Oliver and Felicity dared to question his loyalty after he'd given up everything for them?  It's not actually logical and if he could realize that he'd been looking to place blame anywhere but on himself for his marriage falling apart, he could stop resenting Oliver and realize that getting spied on wasn't really what he was losing it over.  And then maybe he could ask for forgiveness and thus self-aware, no longer be an asshat. 

  I agree about Curtis.  I think more than anything he needs a good therapist so that he can claim his choices rather than thinking that he's tossed on the winds of the world.  And unlike Rene and Dinah, he did actually do anything to threaten Oliver or the rest of the team.  Plus he was still working on helping Diggle unlike the other two who were only doing what was best for them, Dinah stopping fighting even though the threat to the city was huge, and Rene willing to separate Oliver from his family so that Rene could be with his.

For Rene and Dinah, I think @BkWurm1 has the right idea to make them contractors that Oliver calls in to help when he needs them, not evil like Malcolm and Slade but still not entirely trustworthy.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think anything will get me to accept Curtis again. I think he needs to leave the show/city/viglante life. I'll just skip this one.

For Dinah, I think it takes some sort of sacrifice; centered around Vigilante. Maybe she sacrifices him for the team?

For Rene, I think he probably has the easiest path back since they wrote him both an excuse and an out. He did it for his daughter and now they floated the whole getting rid of evidence/recanting story.

I actually still like Rene, yeah he was a total asshole in this episode (many of you will say he's always an asshole) but, he actually pissed me off the least. I was more offended by Dinah and Curtis' blatant hypocrisy than I was over Rene's attitude.

I still think 1 of the 3 needs to leave permanently, decide on another life whatever. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[JamieLynn832002]

I agree about still liking Rene over the other two. It doesn't really make sense when he's the actual betrayer but somehow his behavior is less offensive. I'd still be fine if they all disappeared but if I had to choose, I think I'd keep Rene. Maybe because I at least understand Rene's intial reasons whereas I have no idea what crawled up Dinah and Curtis's ass.

[Guest]

I like this idea of having the masks come in every now and then. I've felt the team has been overcrowded for a long time now and the show doesn't need so many series regulars. OTA should be the main team and then the others can come in now and then to help. I want this even more after the newbies were such assholes in 610. I seriously never want any of them back ever again. I know that's not possible though so this would be a good compromise.

(As for the newbies, I also find myself less annoyed at Rene even though he's the biggest betrayer of them all. But Curtis is insufferable to me and Dinah is not far behind him. I actually didn't mind her that much in s5 but s6 has ruined her for me.)

Edited January 20, 2018 by Guest

[Hiveminder]

8 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think anything will get me to accept Curtis again. I think he needs to leave the show/city/viglante life. I'll just skip this one.

For Dinah, I think it takes some sort of sacrifice; centered around Vigilante. Maybe she sacrifices him for the team?

For Rene, I think he probably has the easiest path back since they wrote him both an excuse and an out. He did it for his daughter and now they floated the whole getting rid of evidence/recanting story.

I actually still like Rene, yeah he was a total asshole in this episode (many of you will say he's always an asshole) but, he actually pissed me off the least. I was more offended by Dinah and Curtis' blatant hypocrisy than I was over Rene's attitude.

I still think 1 of the 3 needs to leave permanently, decide on another life whatever. 

It’s strange because I also dislike Rene the least right now, and I even feel a teensy bit sorry for him. It’s partly because he has shown some kind of regret and partly because he’s just come off as not too bright in this situation. Like, I feel like Watson probably went after Rene not just because he had a weakness to exploit but also because she thought she could take advantage of his...naïveté? Dumbness?

However, even though I don’t have as many hard feelings for him, I agree with whoever mentioned up thread that there will always be a good reason. Rene has betrayed Oliver twice now. He makes poor decisions. His heart might be in the right place, but he can’t be trusted. It’s not malicious on his part, but you shouldn’t have someone covering you in the field when you know you can’t trust them. 

[tv echo]

In order for OTA to need the newbies, the show basically had to (1) cobble together this cabal of half a dozen villains who've joined together for no discernible reason, (2) disable Diggle so that he couldn't fight in the field, and (3) make Thea unwilling to suit up as Speedy, not even to help out her brother when he was risking his life fighting solo. The odds of these three things happening ever again? I agree that, other than on an occasional contract basis, OTA really don't need three additional bodies on the team.

That said, I really don't think that any of the three newbies will be killed off or leave the show. Dinah is the Black Canary and they're not going to kill off another BC. Also, she does provide an asset to the team with her meta power, she adds another woman to the team, and, for some reason, the EPs want to have a BC on Arrow. Curtis is the only LGBT character on Arrow and Berlanti prides himself on the diversity of his shows. Also, Curtis does provide an asset to the team with his hardware tech expertise. That leaves Rene, who adds nothing to the team other than additional muscle. He's just a less experienced, more hot-tempered, and way less mature version of Diggle. However, again, TPTB seem to like Wild Dog for some reason, so I don't see them killing him off either. The best we can hope for is that one of these characters leaves Star City (or maybe moves over to Legends?). But, bottom line: I think we're stuck with all three.

Edited January 20, 2018 by tv echo

[EmilyBettFan]

I don't know about Rene. His rude behavior towards Felicity saying he doesn't like her talking that way to him (he said this almost like she talks to him that way all the time.) Was so over the top for me. 

Same with Curtis when he said to Diggle "is that how you sleep at night" and Dinah's "you're pointing at everyone else except yourselves" was way too much to be that mad over a survelliance. 

Each newbie had a rude quote they said in the same scene and it was overkill. That writing and even acting from the three of them made it even easier for me to want to leave those characters at the door. 

[calliope1975]

What I absolutely do not want is OTA to do any more apologizing. They made an attempt, like twice now, and have been disrespected and rebuffed twice. No more.

[BkWurm1]

14 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

It’s strange because I also dislike Rene the least right now, and I even feel a teensy bit sorry for him. It’s partly because he has shown some kind of regret and partly because he’s just come off as not too bright in this situation. Like, I feel like Watson probably went after Rene not just because he had a weakness to exploit but also because she thought she could take advantage of his...naïveté? Dumbness?

However, even though I don’t have as many hard feelings for him, I agree with whoever mentioned up thread that there will always be a good reason. Rene has betrayed Oliver twice now. He makes poor decisions. His heart might be in the right place, but he can’t be trusted. It’s not malicious on his part, but you shouldn’t have someone covering you in the field when you know you can’t trust them. 

I can't say I dislike Rene the least but I agree in some ways he's the least of my frustrations.  Maybe because he can't be fixed in my eyes after this so I can't be bothered to waste my time on too much anger toward him while with Dinah and Curtis I still expect better of them, still want to see them humbled and make reparations.  But with Rene, I'm fine forgiving him and letting him go, but trust him with any big secrets that could compromise the team or personal lives of the team?  Hell no.  

If they don't just ship him off (and I really fear they won't), THEN I'll be pissed the most at him for his very existence and continued presence on the team. 

Changing the topic a bit. 

Now that all the villains all know all of their secret identities, it seems even more likely that the show will end with Oliver announcing to the world he is the Green Arrow.  Have no clue how the show will make that work but if the secret is already out, then the show has even less of a reason to keep the public from knowing the truth.  Could they possibly end up getting legitimized by some agency?  That would be kind of insane if season seven was the team working out in the open on cases.  On the plus side, they could film more stuff in the broad daylight.    

[Primal Slayer]

Reddit did their own little "Create your own S7" so here is what I would hope to see. 

Season Theme: Identity. Yes S3 was "Identity" but they did kind of a lame job on it and this will deal with more balancing Vigilante life with everyday life. Majority of these people aren't their own bosses and hold high positions where constantly disappearing should be taken notice.

Team Arrow: Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Curtis, Dinah, E2!Laurel, Quentin

-Rene ends up retiring from the vigilante life to give his full attention to his daughter.

-Siren ends up outing herself to the public at the end of S6 and is forced to pretend to be E1!Laurel to the public. The team decide to keep her close and thus she joins Oliver/Quentin at the mayors office or Felicity/Curtis at Helix Dynamics. She ended up helping them at the end of S6 but they still don't fully trust her. She spends majority of her time with various group members in civilian mode while operating as Black Siren on her own until the 2nd half of the season.

-Felicity/Curtis get Helix Dynamics up and running with their inventions making the company prime target for trouble.

-Oliver will be struggling with his  life as Mayor/Vigilante/Father due to the big bad influencing certain key figures of Star City.

-Dinah will struggle with her position within the SCPD due to a new head honcho being brought in.  

Big Bad: The Kobra cult -They want to take control of the world and spread chaos starting with Star City. They recruit various members through money and power. They also take an interest in Helix Dynamics and end up stealing the magical nanites and claim them as their own.

Side villains for big arcs: Sportsmaster/Chesire -Hired assassins by the Kobra Cult.

Big Crossover: The destruction of Earth 2 which sees plenty of doppelgangers taking residence on Earth 1 and other Earths. Will lead to the return of Robert Queen as the Hood before dying. Lady Shiva will come from E2 and have her hunt down Black Siren. We'll see E2 versions of the gang with majority being killed off in the destruction of E2. E2 Diggle will be a Meta Human.

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Big Crossover: The destruction of Earth 2 which sees plenty of doppelgangers taking residence on Earth 1 and other Earths. Will lead to the return of Robert Queen as the Hood before dying. Lady Shiva will come from E2 and have her hunt down Black Siren. We'll see E2 versions of the gang with majority being killed off in the destruction of E2. E2 Diggle will be a Meta Human.

Maybe pick a different Earth.  There's too many characters on E2 known on the Flash to have to juggle and keep alive and how unfair that only two years after being freed from Zoom, the whole planet dies.    

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe pick a different Earth.  There's too many characters on E2 known on the Flash to have to juggle and keep alive and how unfair that only two years after being freed from Zoom, the whole planet dies.    

Its the only one that the audience really has somewhat of an relationship with and having Jesse on E3, Wells/Siren on E1 there really is only E2 Iris/Barry that we've been introduced to.

But if we leave that off the table for now then I would just say to focus on the corruption of Argus and have them be the big bad of the crossover. Maybe have Lyla start up Checkmate. 

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I would just say to focus on the corruption of Argus and have them be the big bad of the crossover. Maybe have Lyla start up Checkmate. 

This reminded me that I really want them to do something with ARGUS that teases/addresses what the Legends saw in the future. And since no one really talks outside of crossover time, it is the only time that I think it would be brought up. 

Plus it would mean having Lyla show up and if she’s around, Diggle has to be part of it. And after the lack of Diggle in this year’s crossover, I’d like to see him in at least 3 of the 4 episodes next year, preferably all of them. 

[Primal Slayer]

I think it is certainly something they need to focus on. ARGUS being an enemy instead of a friend is always more interesting to me, probably just because it's an easy cop out for the heroes to have in their back pocket. 

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Its the only one that the audience really has somewhat of an relationship with and having Jesse on E3, Wells/Siren on E1 there really is only E2 Iris/Barry that we've been introduced to.

But if we leave that off the table for now then I would just say to focus on the corruption of Argus and have them be the big bad of the crossover. Maybe have Lyla start up Checkmate. 

Jesse was back on E2 as of the beginning of this season.  She's that earth's Flash.  And Barry's parents are still alive on the planet and there's all of Gorilla City.  

I do think they need to explore Argus going bad.

I kind of got the feeling that the show runners could be leaning toward a total elseworlds type of crossover event from the way they talked about wanting to do something totally different and not being able to top this year's event. And since they already said they didn't think they could top an Alien invasion, just another big disaster story seems off the table as well.   They could be planning to just grab a few characters and not actually do a massive character crossover but I think that would be a mistake.  I'm leaning in favor of a what if story that's only minimally tied to our show's reality.  

[Primal Slayer]

Ah yeah I forgot that Wells was "kicked off" of E2 by Jesse and her new gang. 

If they want to do an Elseworlds story I think just setting it on one of the 52 Earths in the Arrowverse would be the best way to go so they can still tie it in at some point if they wanted. 

[tv echo]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Now that all the villains all know all of their secret identities, it seems even more likely that the show will end with Oliver announcing to the world he is the Green Arrow.  Have no clue how the show will make that work but if the secret is already out, then the show has even less of a reason to keep the public from knowing the truth.  Could they possibly end up getting legitimized by some agency?  That would be kind of insane if season seven was the team working out in the open on cases.  On the plus side, they could film more stuff in the broad daylight.    

Alternatively, the season could end with Cayden, Diaz, Vigilante all either dead or imprisoned by ARGUS, Black Siren either shipped back to E2 or imprisoned by ARGUS, and Anatoly returning to Russia (I don't think he would ever expose Oliver as the GA). That way, Oliver's secret identity would remain secret from the public.

Edited January 21, 2018 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

Alternatively, the season could end with Cayden, Diaz, Vigilante all either dead or imprisoned by ARGUS, Black Siren either shipped back to E2 or imprisoned by ARGUS, and Anatoly returning to Russia (I don't think he would ever expose Oliver as the GA). That way, Oliver's secret identity would remain secret from the public.

You give me hope.

[tennisgurl]

I think an Elseworld story would be really interesting, and if they dont want to do another "all the heroes team up to beat up some bad guys" story, it could be a solid idea for the big crossover. It would allow them to play with new settings and ideas, and let the actors do something different and fun, and with actors they dont normally get to interact with very much. If they want, they can even bring back some actors that have left already for a one time thing. I dont quite know what it would be, but I bet they could come up something. Arrowverse in a different time period? A more magic based verse? A true Mirror Universe where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are good? 

I feel like ARGUS becoming an antagonist is almost inevitable at this point, with what we saw on Legends, and the increasingly sketchy behavior we have already seen from them. Now with Watson and her anti vigilante crusade, I think it could all tie into one big story, that could even be the next crossover. Maybe Lyla is kicked out of ARGUS in a coo, and a more hard line, anti vigilante/metahuman/alien/magic/whatever faction takes over, and start trying ting to hunt everyone down and arrest them, maybe turning public sentiment against the heroes as well. Theres a lot of good story potential there, if well done. 

On 1/19/2018 at 10:14 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think anything will get me to accept Curtis again. I think he needs to leave the show/city/viglante life. I'll just skip this one.

 

In many ways, Curtis is the odd man out with the other newbies. Dina and Rene were both vigilantes even before being recruited, and their lives have both been improved by their time with Team Arrow. Rene has gone from an angry unemployed asshole living in squalor to a reasonably well adjusted guy with more focus in his vigilante mission, connections to actual people, a prestigious job in the mayors office, and custody of his daughter. Dina was also an angry vigilante living on the edge of society, and she now has a sweet gig in the SCPD, friends and teammates, and an actual way to fight evil. I get why Dina and Rene are vigilantes, if nothing else. Curtis's life has gotten worse since he became a vigilante, mostly with his marriage falling apart, but it also has made him more bitter and surly than he was when we first met him, when he was a really nice, helpful guy. And, unlike with Rene and Dina, I still dont know why this is so important to him. If he just wants to do good in the world, without any kind of sad backstory, thats fine, but I would like a little more on why this matters to him so much that he tossed his marriage away. So, not really sure what they means for our newbies. Who is more easily forgivable? The ones who did the worst betrayals, and have had their lives improved, and grew as characters? Or the one who did the lesser betrayal, and has had his life worsen, and become a worse character? I am not sure what that would have to do with moving forward with the newbies (who will need a LOT of work to get me to ever like them again after this weeks crap) but I think there is something there worth exploring. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't know if this should go in the unpopular thread (do we have one here?) or not, or if it's just my missing Person of Interest (Only the first two seasons!) and seeing Finch and Reese working together, or just fucking missing seeing Jim Caviezel on my screen, but when (because we all know it's when and not if, which is stupid) EVUHL!FINCH is defeated and killed (not a spoiler, just speculation based on this show's history of killing the Big Bads of the season), I want this guy to show up as the loyal, behind the scenes henchman, to swoop down and save him to come back another day, just because.

DON'T JUDGE ME!

[DeadZeus]

Rene and Curtis need to go imo. Especially in the field.

Curtis is well... Curtis. And Rene just sprays guns.. I don't understand what he does that no rookie cop can do. Oliver is beyond that.
Even one second Rene just shoots his gun is already a second less for Oliver to be a badass on screen.

I'm HOPING Rene stops being a vigilante for the sake of his daughter. He can still be in the show but just not as a mask IMO.

But that's wishful thinking considering he just got a new costume.

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

I've been thinking about this "Civil War" and wondering if like Marvel's version were supposed to see both sides.  With Marvel it was a bit easier, I actually cared about Tony and Steve as well as the extended groups. I actually got why each person chose a side and for the most part it made sense. I was Team Cap but, I saw/understood Tony's reasoning.

Getting back to Arrow and the setup between 609/610.

In 609 we have the team well aware that Cayden James is working with BS (604/607) they're killing people and out to destroy Star City (at the least).

In 609 we have the breakup, Rene sells Oliver out and OTA spy on Team WannaBs. This apparently causes trust issues on Team WannaB and hurt feelings from Curtis. 

A few things of note, as recently pointed out in the episode thread, Evelyn betrayed them all in 509. She was working with Chase for at least 3 episodes and, in the end she helped kidnap/capture ALL of them. You'd think Rene/Curtis might actually understand why OTA reacted the way they did.

Also Dinah was keeping secrets about her rendezvous with Vincent, someone who has repeatedly killed criminals and, tried to kill Team Arrow in S5.

Curtis has put nanites in Felicity's food to track her without her knowledge.

In all 3 cases the Noobs really don't have a leg to stand on in their "trust" / you don't see us as equals crap.

Now let's skip to 610. In 610 we find out that it's been 5 weeks and OTA have been working tirelessly to find/stop Cayden James. Oliver is going out every night on his own to protect the city. Felicity is pulling all nighters trying to digitally track James. 

Meanwhile, the Noobs aren't doing anything to protect the city. Rene was fired and spending all his time with Zoe, Dinah is doing cop work, Curtis is being pissy and working on his chip. In 5 weeks not a single one of them thought of James/BS or the city. Maybe Dinah gets a pass since her its part of her day job.

By the end of 610 we've had Oliver go out against Team Evil twice. We've had OTA work to spring a trap AND inform the Noobs that their identities have been compromised. We also had OTA reach out to the Noobs twice to try and get the team back together.

In the end Team WannaBs act like a bunch for children throwing a tantrum while OTA shows maturity and growth putting aside issues to focus on the bigger picture.

And this is where I come back to my hopes/fears. My hope is that they're deliberately writing the Noobs in the wrong because all the evidence points that way. My fear is that we're supposed to sympathize with Team WannaB and understand their sides.

On the fear side there's a history there (Susan). Maybe the writers forgot or think we forgot about Evelyn and the nanites? Maybe we're supposed to go poor Curtis he's been with them since S4 why are they so mean to him!?

However the biggest hold up for me is that they had Oliver apologize, point out that there were wrongs on all sides and then ASK the Noobs back. As written that scene was in essence Oliver holding out hsi hand in partnership and, the Noobs spitting in his face. How am I supposed to see their side?

Edited January 23, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[lemotomato]

I wonder if SA's "Be careful what you wish for, newbies!" tweet after 610 could be a hint that we're reacting the way that's intended. In previous instances of the audience reaction not going the way they expected, SA posted defensively, like when people complained about how Oliver was dumb to date/trust Susan. IIRC, he also defended Felicity when there was a backlash against her after "I don't want to be a woman you love" in 312. And of course, that time when everyone was (rightfully) bashing the BMD 408 and he was all "but Oliver's son!!". This time, SA is reinforcing what everyone else is saying. So maybe we're in the right to side with Oliver?

Edited January 23, 2018 by lemotomato

[way2interested]

12 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

And this is where I come back to my hopes/fears. My hope is that they're deliberately writing the Noobs in the wrong because all the evidence points that way. My fear is that we're supposed to sympathize with Team WannaB and understand their sides.

The more and more I think about the episode the more I think they are (did the EPs ever really say anything about it being Civil War, or was just the offhand comment from cons and/or EK?). In 6a the arc went specifically through any issues that Oliver/Diggle/Felicity had with each other so that come 609 they're all on the same page and are as close as ever. Diggle came clean with his injury, Oliver and Felicity got married, Diggle and Felicity have had more moments together, etc. Even the final shot before this plot kicked off in 609 was only the 3 of them (and William and Thea who have no stake in this argument). On the other side, the newbies were all set up with conflicts (Curtis pulled into working with Felicity, Dinah with Vince, Rene with his daughter) that didn't come to head yet. 

Now we've got 609 where everyone does something "bad," but the actually surveillance is almost skimmed over and it's almost immediately discovered that Dinah was hiding something anyway and then the conflict began. 610 then shows OTA not even focused on the newbies at all except in terms of the team and being on the defensive with Oliver, while the newbies act on the offensive except in private.

To me, it's either that the writers want a civil war type and are just not interested at all in portraying Oliver/OTA as wrong or negative because of personal preference or that the writers made a scenario where Oliver has to be the supportive/developed character in a plot while going through his own unique plotlines (being a parent, the trial, etc.). Sure the writers could be terrible and this is them trying to equate the sides, but idk with how tight and semi-purposeful the season has been so far (and how centered they usually are with Oliver), I can't help but think that they purposefully made Oliver/OTA come out better in this scenario purposefully to show his growth and to make his plot more about continuing that support (a.k.a. being like a parent to the newbies since that's a big part of his story this year) rather than actually about OTA vs. Newbies. Or at least that's my kind of hope. 

[Hiveminder]

13 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I wonder if SA's "Be careful what you wish for, newbies!" tweet after 610 could be a hint that we're reacting the way that's intended. In previous instances of the audience reaction not going the way they expected, SA posted defensively, like when people complained about how Oliver was dumb to date/trust Susan. IIRC, he also defended Felicity when there was a backlash against her after "I don't want to be a woman you love" in 312. And of course, that time when everyone was (rightfully) bashing the BMD 408 and he was all "but Oliver's son!!". This time, SA is reinforcing what everyone else is saying. So maybe we're in the right to side with Oliver?

That's a really good point. 

[tennisgurl]

I am starting to wonder if we are reading this wrong and we are supposed to be Team Oliver, and the newbies are going to get a thumping on their first mission. It just seems so unbelievable that we are supposed to be on their side after all of their extremely unsympathetic behavior. 

Or maybe, they originally meant to make this more of an equal fight, and then they saw how unpopular the newbies were, and how the overwhelming majority of the audience were siding with OTA (really, I haven't seen anyone really siding with the newbies), and decided to double down on them being the assholes in this fight, and will eventually come crawling back to OTA. They might decide to change the original story to make OTA the "winners" just based on audience reaction. Kind of like how I think they meant for Susan to have more of a story, but when the audience didn't really take to her, they just kind of hustled her off stage right. 

[statsgirl]

I  took the "Be careful what you wish for " as we the audience are wishing for the n00bs to go away .  But that means OTA doesn't have enough power to defeat the bad guys.

[lemotomato]

The addition of "newbies" at the end gives me the impression he's addressing them, not the audience.

[statsgirl]

The period at the end of "Careful what you wish for." and then Newbies as a separate sentence made me think he wasn't addressing it to the newbies.  But then, SA's never been the best at grammar, although his grammar is better than his math.

[BkWurm1]

43 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The period at the end of "Careful what you wish for." and then Newbies as a separate sentence made me think he wasn't addressing it to the newbies.  But then, SA's never been the best at grammar, although his grammar is better than his math.

Newbies as its own sentence threw me a bit as well, as if it was a message FROM the newbies, but I finally decided he had to be addressing the Newbs, not the general audience or even Oliver because it doesn't make sense for SA to speak for the newbies.   One of those actors could speak for them, but it doesn't work for SA to be mocking the OTA in favor of the opposition.  

If he'd just left it as "Careful what you wish for" after doing the quote about OTA handling it on their own, I would think he was shaking his head at Oliver thinking they could handle it, but the context of the quote in the show had him saying it after they were rejected by the newbs, so OTA having to go it alone IS what the newbs wished for.  Not the OTA, even if they think they have it covered.  

[Morrigan2575]

He probably meant to put a , instead of a . 

One of my keyboards has a feature where they switch

[tv echo]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Or maybe, they originally meant to make this more of an equal fight, and then they saw how unpopular the newbies were, and how the overwhelming majority of the audience were siding with OTA (really, I haven't seen anyone really siding with the newbies), and decided to double down on them being the assholes in this fight, and will eventually come crawling back to OTA. They might decide to change the original story to make OTA the "winners" just based on audience reaction. Kind of like how I think they meant for Susan to have more of a story, but when the audience didn't really take to her, they just kind of hustled her off stage right. 

I read two 610 reviews criticizing Oliver/OTA's actions toward the newbies (one review is posted in the Starling City Times thread, I don't remember where I read the other one). But they were in the minority.

Edited January 23, 2018 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

I was very surprised that most of the comments I've seen on Facebook sided with Oliver and OTA. That's one platform where I thought the noobs would get support.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, lemotomato said:

The addition of "newbies" at the end gives me the impression he's addressing them, not the audience.

Grammatically there should be a comma in there. "Be careful what you wish for, newbies." But I think he just wanted to emphasize it. Either way he's definitely talking to the newbies seeing as they're the ones who refused to come back and want to go it alone. 

[statsgirl]

He could be telling Oliver to be careful what he wishes for.   The newbies are powerful.

We'll find out by March I guess.

[JamieLynn832002]

Felicity told John in Divided that instead of blocking James by shutting down the firewall, she'd actually just helped him plant a virus so I hope that'll be the end of it. I worry about a possible arrest too but it would seem like overkill when Oliver (and Barry on The Flash) has already been arrested this season.