S04.E13: Lahey v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (2)

[Blue Plastic]

23 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I didn't watch the Scandal part of the episode (I didn't realize it was a cross-over) so I didn't know who Marcus was and how he and Michaela knew each other.

This is me, too.  I knew it was a crossover on HTGAWM but didn't realize there was a crossover on the Scandal hour, too.  So when they showed Michaela sitting in a car casually talking to this "Marcus," I'm like - did we know this guy before?  Because it feels like we're supposed to know him but he's never been mentioned before...?  I don't watch Scandal and I knew they would do something confusing like that.  Why do they need to inject more confusion into a show that already has such a convoluted backstory that is difficult to keep straight?  I am irrationally angry about this relatively small detail!

Dominic killed Wes right before our eyes.  Yes, they made us think it was Laurel's dad who called in the hit...but so what if it was someone else's orders instead?  If it was Laurel's mother, well who cares? - she's not a major character and we just met her really.  The Mahoneys?  Meh.  Who else could it be?  Wes' death scene was horrible and there's really not much they can add now to make it any more horrible.  I guess it would be surprising if it turned out to be one of the remaining K5 but that's probably not going to happen.

I would love to see Annalise sue and get Jacqueline's therapist license revoked.

They are starting to lose me though.  The "who killed Wes?" mystery is not much of a mystery IMO.  The class action suit is a worthy subject but not exactly mysterious or sitting-on-the-edge-of-my-seat suspenseful.  The retcon to Wes' activities in his last few days is not anything compelling to me, either.  Isaac and Jacqueline are like a strange interlude that doesn't really fit with the rest of the show.  It seems like Laurel will never get her baby back.  Ugh.

[helenamonster]

Even watching both episodes, Marcus and Michaela hooking up really seemed to come out of nowhere. I could maybe buy it if she and Asher were in the middle of a fight or a rough patch but they weren't. Between that and having her take the case from Connor (at least he got his recognition at the end), I guess it's her turn to look bad lately. I'm starting to notice that this show has a habit of making one character at a time annoying as all hell at the expense of the others. It was Connor for a while, then Laurel, and I guess now it's Michaela's turn. Watch out Asher, you're probably next!

I don't watch Scandal regularly so I was really confused when Annalise was having her breakdown and she asked Olivia to do the case for her. Is Olivia even a lawyer?

On 3/1/2018 at 10:37 PM, JudgeyMcJudgyPants said:

I’m a little fuzzy on the timeline of this show but hasn’t Wes been dead for a while (like months)?  Am I really suppose to believe that his apartment wouldn’t be cleaned out by now.  And if that floorboard is as loose as it looked, a new tenant would surely have found the thumb drive.

Laurel is now living in Wes's old apartment.

[Neurochick]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Heh, Sharon Lawrence played Glynn Turman's ex-wife on Queen Sugar.

Yes, I forgot about that.  And on this show, like in Queen Sugar, they never had any scenes together.  

[wanderingstar]

2 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Is Olivia even a lawyer?

I haven't watched Scandal in ages, but I think Olivia is a lawyer.

I did think it was hilarious when Michaela tried to deny sleeping with Marcus, and Laurel gave her this look that said, "Remember who you're talking to." Poor Oliver's disbelief about it also made me chuckle. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, For Cereals said:

I’m so confused...I don’t watch Scandal...

To try to give some backstory and catch you up on what you (and any other non-Scandal watchers) might have missed from not watching Scandal in general or the first-part of the two-parter:

Olivia "Liv" Pope is a big-deal, world-famous heavyweight politico from DC who has advised countless powerful people there when they found themselves caught in a titular scandal.  She is an attorney, but she has not generally been practicing law.

Instead, she has gotten a bunch of people elected, knows where a lot of bodies are buried, and knows how to figure out how to unbury other bodies. Only, she and her team had been at the center of several scandals of their own. In particular, she has had a longstanding affair with the previous president of the US, Fitzgerald "Fitz" Grant, and helped get his ex-wife, Mellie Grant, to succeed him. Also, her father had been the head of a double-secret probation spy agency called B613. Anyway, it appears that Olivia is on the outs with basically everyone -- former president Fitzgerald Grant, President Mellie Grant, and her old team. It looks like the only one still loyal to her is Marcus. 

At the end of the last "Murder" episode, Michaela came up with the idea to have AK hire Olivia to figure out a way to persuade the Supreme Court to hear her case. We saw AK going to a class that Olivia was teaching about how to survive a scandal.

The short version of the Scandal half -- and people can feel free to correct any of the things I got wrong because I wasn't watching closely -- AK speaks up in Olivia's class and momentarily impresses her. Then after class she asks for Olivia's help getting the case heard. Olivia at first turns it down, but then comes around. They clash and bond about various things. They are trying to recruit allies to get enough justices to agree to hear the case. They go to Fitz and he arranges a meeting with Mellie. Mellie tells them she supports the case in principle but it's too soon and won't support them. She then privately tells Olivia in so many words that she's not about to help Olivia regain any juice. In fact, she hires Liv's old team to try to make sure the Supreme Court doesn't hear the case. The team discovers that one of the justice's sons got a DUI or some such buried and allows the White House to blackmail him to not bring the case to the Court. Then her team has a change of conscience and lets Liv know what blackmail material was used, which allows Liv to figure out a way to nullify the blackmail material, and the justice casts the deciding vote to hear the case. Also, Michaela bonds with Marcus about how down he is for the cause and so forth. And AK's parents came to DC to support her.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Chicago Redshirt

[Blue Plastic]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

To try to give some backstory and catch you up on what you (and any other non-Scandal watchers) might have missed from not watching Scandal in general or the first-part of the two-parter:

Olivia "Liv" Pope is a big-deal, world-famous heavyweight politico from DC who has advised countless powerful people there when they found themselves caught in a titular scandal.  She is an attorney, but she has not generally been practicing law...

This was a really great summary!  Thank you - very nice of you to post this.

[TiredMe]

I despise these forced cross overs so I refused to watched Scandal. Was a tad lost at first but then I was caught up. This is my first time seeing Kerry Washington and she was just ok. But it must be hard acting with the spectacular Viola Davis. Anyone pails in comparison IMO. She was so compelling. She deserves all the awards all the time. 

[Panopticon]

I’ve never watched Scandal and forgot about the crossover so didn’t set my DVR to grab it this time. I was very much underwhelmed by the famous Olivia Pope.... but as has been said I guess it’s not fair for anyone to have to go toe to toe with Viola Davis.

I did find this episode to be easy enough to follow without any Scandal watching so I appreciate that. 

[wanderingstar]

Came across this article about the real-life work Annalise's class action is based on.

[J-Man]

On 3/2/2018 at 6:19 AM, Gillian Rosh said:

Marcus hues more closely to what she's sought her whole life. I get why she was tempted.

Please tell me this was an intentional pun. 

For you non-"Scandal" watchers, the ex- that Marcus was talking about in the car with Michaela (when she asked him why he wasn't paired up) was none other than the current president, Mellie Grant. Which begs the question-- now that we've had this crossover, will HTGAWM be forever locked into the Scandal universe, where Mellie and Cyrus are the president and VP?

[wanderingstar]

On 3/5/2018 at 1:38 AM, J-Man said:

On 3/2/2018 at 9:19 AM, Gillian Rosh said:

Marcus hues more closely to what she's sought her whole life. I get why she was tempted.

Please tell me this was an intentional pun. 

Ha, J-Man that was totally unintentional! Only noticed the implication of my word choice long after posting. I am definitely never that clever on purpose!

Edited March 6, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[darkestboy]

Watched both episodes for this, did struggle a bit with the Scandal parts as I've not really been watching it in a while but overall, the lack of realism with the court cases to one side, I really liked this crossover event.

Olivia and Annalise, every scene they had was golden and both Kerry Washington and Viola Davis brought their A game with these episodes. I could've easily watched an entire with the two of them together.

Nice but an odd timing to have Annalise's mother show up though. I did like that some progression was made with the main plots  - Frank telling Laurel about her mother's connection with Wes, Simon waking up, Isaac taking an overdose and so on.

Asher seemed a bit too excited for Connor/Oliver's wedding. Michaela sleeping with Marcus, I could've done without.

I don't know if we need to see these two worlds collide ever again but this was certainly enjoyable though, 8/10

[Perkie]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:37 PM, JudgeyMcJudgyPants said:

Am I really suppose to believe that his apartment wouldn’t be cleaned out by now.  And if that floorboard is as loose as it looked, a new tenant would surely have found the thumb drive.

Didn't read throught the whole thread to see if this was addressed, so if it has, my apologies.  Laurel now lives in Wes' place and I guess she'd have no reason to look under the floor of the sink to find anything stashed there. 

[jvr]

@Gillian Rosh I thought it was totally intentional (and funny lol), and I was surprised some of the discussion didn't head in that direction. My first thought was about the discussion that was on here (gosh was it late last season or early this season?) concerning Michaela trying to push preppy, probably leaning conservative (I don't think he has expressed much to be sure but he was probably raised that way), privileged Asher into her Barack Obama fantasies. I remember a few people jumped on when she was expressing how she viewed their future together as being wholly unrealistic. lol 

Anyway, like others I could have done without the cheating (especially with no real build up!) and would have just liked more discussion and realization in their interactions (on cases for example) that maybe philosophically they differ some or a lot and that causing strife, drama and conflict (and even breaking up and getting back together). Or exploring more Asher's insecurities that popped up concerning his career aspirations in relation to how ambitious Michaela is. I feel it would have been a much better story to explore how Michaela views Asher in their relationship, whether he fits in what she envisions her future to be (regardless of whether she loves him), digging more into how her being adopted and raised by a poor white family (did we meet her mom for nothing?) could be feeding into her being so gung-ho to be ultra successful and why that vision of success may only include a black man. All the possibilities in the world, and they jump straight to cheating...

It will be interesting to see what the writers do but I fear characters will be ruined and I will learn nothing more about what drives them. Hopefully it doesn't just lead to the next dead body. 

Regarding the rest, I don't care about how unrealistic the law and courtroom stuff is. I've watched all seasons of the show Suits for goodness sake. Just give me interesting stories and mysteries and I'm good to go, you won't get any complaints from me in the law arena.

[possibilities]

I viewed the Asher-Michaela future as her being ambitious in her career and him being a stay at home dad who maybe does some part time lawyering on the side. But the cheating spells doom, I think. Asher was violently jealous over her spending time with Laurel earlier in the season. He's not going to take her liaison with Marcus well, regardless of what Michaela ultimately wants to do.

[wanderingstar]

10 hours ago, jvr said:

All the possibilities in the world, and they jump straight to cheating...

I do think having Michaela cheat on Asher is one way for the writers to explore all of the stuff you mentioned. We know Michaela is very ambitious and has a specific vision for where she wants her life to go, and that has usually involved being with a successful black man (that's why she clung to the Aiden fantasy for so long). Asher was not what she envisioned for herself, though I do believe she loves him. I think once Asher finds out about her and Marcus, it could pave the way for them to hash out some of the stuff in their relationship they've kind of swept under the rug.

Or, it could be that I'm being hopelessly naive in trusting the writers to take this approach.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't like MIchaela cheating, but overall I can buy it.  But to jump to sex right away, in a car, in daylight, in the open, parked on a street in the burbs?  Did neither of them have any self-control?  At least drive off somewhere more private.

[Bort]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

Asher was violently jealous over her spending time with Laurel earlier in the season. He's not going to take her liaison with Marcus well, regardless of what Michaela ultimately wants to do.

A ragey Asher will run people over with his car. Michaela should tread carefully about this bombshell.

[Chick2Chic]

16 hours ago, possibilities said:

Asher was violently jealous over her spending time with Laurel earlier in the season. He's not going to take her liaison with Marcus well, regardless of what Michaela ultimately wants to do.

While I agree with you on the point overall, IIRC, his jealousy was triggered by catching Michaela lying to him. He wasn't happy that she kept putting Laurel before him after a while but it was the lying that enraged him. That everyone else in their circle will know that she cheated so quickly/easily on him with Marcus - seriously, I can't get over how poorly it was written - IMO will also trigger Asher as prior seasons have shown how sensitive/defensive/triggered he gets when he feels left behind. I can't see him wanting to talk to Michaela about why she did it. I can see him being devastated by it and lashing out at her for her betrayal. For all of his douche-bro traits, Asher is pretty devoted to Michaela. I also think Michaela loves Asher but lets her ambitions cloud her at times but that the writing was so bad regarding her cheating, I'm not sure her explaining her reasons why will fill the gap there (I could be wrong, I just think I'll be left underwhelmed by what the writers give her to explain her actions).  

[love2lovebadtv]

On 3/5/2018 at 10:51 AM, darkestboy said:

Watched both episodes for this, did struggle a bit with the Scandal parts as I've not really been watching it in a while but overall, the lack of realism with the court cases to one side, I really liked this crossover event.

Olivia and Annalise, every scene they had was golden and both Kerry Washington and Viola Davis brought their A game with these episodes. I could've easily watched an entire with the two of them together.

Nice but an odd timing to have Annalise's mother show up though. I did like that some progression was made with the main plots  - Frank telling Laurel about her mother's connection with Wes, Simon waking up, Isaac taking an overdose and so on.

Asher seemed a bit too excited for Connor/Oliver's wedding. Michaela sleeping with Marcus, I could've done without.

I don't know if we need to see these two worlds collide ever again but this was certainly enjoyable though, 8/10

Asher is always the most excited one of the bunch. He's a goofball that way. Plus, I think he's really gotten to love being included in the group and is genuinely happy for his friends. Too bad his life is about to change...again. 

On 3/5/2018 at 7:32 PM, Perkie said:

Didn't read throught the whole thread to see if this was addressed, so if it has, my apologies.  Laurel now lives in Wes' place and I guess she'd have no reason to look under the floor of the sink to find anything stashed there. 

Yes, Laurel probably just moved right in. None of the typical cleaning and renovating that typically comes with a new apartment. Though I doubt the landlord of that place does anything special between tenants. 

On 3/6/2018 at 8:48 AM, aquarian1 said:

I don't like MIchaela cheating, but overall I can buy it.  But to jump to sex right away, in a car, in daylight, in the open, parked on a street in the burbs?  Did neither of them have any self-control?  At least drive off somewhere more private.

I was disappointed in both. I thought it was tacky and a distraction from the important work they were doing. I do, however, understand the attraction on both sides. I actually think Asher is more handsome. But Marcus is more mature and more refined and can also relate to Michaela's drive. She's smart, ambitious, and beautiful. So yeah, I get the attraction. But I wish they'd exercised self control. 

On 3/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I haven't watched Scandal in ages, but I think Olivia is a lawyer.

I did think it was hilarious when Michaela tried to deny sleeping with Marcus, and Laurel gave her this look that said, "Remember who you're talking to." Poor Oliver's disbelief about it also made me chuckle. 

She's a lawyer. 

[ombre]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:37 AM, doram said:

The significance of that scene where Nate Snr meets Viola's parents is something that I don't think a non-black person can appreciate. I'm not even sure I, as a young black person can appreciate that. It was these old black people, who'd lived through segregation and Jim Crow, understanding in a way that Annalisse and Olivia, and to an even greater extent Michaela, couldn't understand - that they were witnessing history, the likes of which they probably never believed they would witness in their generation.

I was also pretty floored by the unspoken acknowledgement of the difference and total freaking lack of difference between Great Migration and staying in the South.  It was such a strong, understated scene.  My god.

[RedheadZombie]

Finally watching this episode because I'm not really interested in a Scandal cross over.  I've only seen promos for Scandal, but if Olivia Pope cares so much about social justice, why does she spend all of her time helping corrupt rich white people gain power?

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Finally watching this episode because I'm not really interested in a Scandal cross over.  I've only seen promos for Scandal, but if Olivia Pope cares so much about social justice, why does she spend all of her time helping corrupt rich white people gain power?

To be fair, she also helps corrupt rich black people, corrupt rich Latino people....the spectrum is endless.

But more seriously, even though Fitz is nominally a Republican, he is more liberal than anyone who has been in the real-world Oval Office for the past 30 years, if not all the way back to FDR. So Liv could rationalize that in supporting him, she was helping the people. There have also been episodes where she has taken on clients and causes that have been more in line with promoting social justice. There was a Very Special Episode about police misconduct, for example.

[shksabelle]

Dear Makeup Artist

ENOUGH with the lashes already. How freaking long were those things on Annalise’s Eyes?

[Anela]

I finally watched this the other day. Marcus kind of lied about why he's no longer with Mellie: He didn't cut things off, because she had more important things to do. He cut things off, because she wanted to be President, and he wouldn't be her Olivia Pope. He said it himself, last year. I also could have done without them doing it right there in the car, but all of these shows have people doing things like that. 

I liked Olivia and Annalise finally getting along, and working well together. I liked Olivia with Anna's mum, too. 

[bantering]

When Michaela asked Marcus why he didn't have a woman in his life, I really thought he was going to say he was gay. (I had not watched Scandal. I had to come here to figure out why she was suddenly doing it in a car with a guy who wasn't  Asher. When she did it with Marcus, I continuously kept asking "Did I miss an episode?"). 

[starri]

Whelp, totally cried.

[Milaxx]

On 3/1/2018 at 11:31 PM, HunterHunted said:

Also Jacqueline is a worse human being than Isaac. She knows full well that their daughter's overdose was because their daughter got into Isaac's drugs because Isaac was still using. It's clear to everyone that Isaac is barely sober, but Jacqueline seems content to externalize this. However, some how Isaac's relapse is Annalise's fault. Fuck this bitch. Is Isaac also triggered by patients who have lost a child? The fuck is this shit. And if he's that delicate, he shouldn't be counseling anyone.

 

On 3/2/2018 at 5:21 PM, Fable said:

This whole story bothers me.  Addicts and their enablers always look to blame.  Neither one of them should have been counselors if they are so easily set off.  

Jacqueline is an enabler extraordinaire. She seemingly believes Isaac was sober during the course of their marriage, despite evidence to the contrary and as a result has bought into Isaac's coverup of the fact it was his drugs that Stella OD'd on. She maintains this enabling denial by acting as his personal therapist and is even willing too overstep by going after his Annalise. 

On 3/3/2018 at 2:27 PM, For Cereals said:

I’m so confused...I don’t watch Scandal...

You really don't need to watch Scandal to follow. Watching or at least being familiar with Scandal adds to the enjoyment, but between what Micheala says to AK & the guy introducing Olivia at the end of 4.12, you have a brief summation of who Olivia is.