S02.E01: The War to End All Wars

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, plurie said:

In order to protect the timeline, Jesse had to die before he did any more damage. "Historical" Jesse was supposed to be dead already. So Lucy had to kill him to restore the history she knew.

Which what exactly how Flynn operated throughout the first season when he was killing all the people that were supposed to be dead/killed via something else, so these deaths kind of don't count. My point of the Lucy&Flynn parallels now becomes even more appropriate. I wonder if the writers really feel Lucy being upset over people she killed is enough for viewers to sympathize with her. Because despite all perfect Lyatt hurt/comfort scenes, it was not exactly enough for me as a viewer, so far.

Edited March 14, 2018 by CooperTV

[Manda317]

On 3/13/2018 at 1:29 AM, Halting Hex said:

Lucy doesn't know her own great-grandfather

I am wondering if perhaps she thinks someone else is her great-grandfather? Maybe her great-grandfather lied about paternity, or maybe she is pregnant during the war and marries again after he died. Lucy may not know that information and thinks the man who raised the child was the biological father.

[Shorty186]

Totally random question that may have been answered in the S1 threads, but is Flynn from the future since he has/had Lucy's journal? If so, how is that possible? First, aren't they not supposed to travel to a time where they already existed? And second, Flynn would have needed to have a time machine already, so why would he travel back to 2017 to steal the mothership if he already (presumably) had it?

Edited March 15, 2018 by Shorty186

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Totally random question that may have been answered in the S1 threads, but is Flynn from the future since he has/had Lucy's journal? If so, how is that possible? First, aren't they not supposed to travel to a time where they already existed? And second, Flynn would have needed to have a time machine already, so why would he travel back to 2017 to steal the mothership if he already (presumably) had it?

It's been speculated that that's the case, but there's been no concrete evidence yet to support it as anything other than speculation.  And the showrunners have hinted that IF it was either Future Flynn or Future Lucy who provided the completed journal, they obviously came from a time in the future when the "no returning to a period you've already existed in" problem has been solved.  In other words, the show simply hasn't chosen to answer the question yet of how Flynn got the journal in the first place other than to say that an older Lucy gave it to him -- as he told her when he gave the journal back to her at the end of Season 1, "you aged very well."

[IWantCandy71]

 Lucy shooting the soldier but leaving MC and her daughter alive was sheer idiocy and bad writing. The soldier had only seen a few minor things. They could have knocked him out and tied him up, and his rantings after they were gone could have been ignored or explained away as what would today be called PTSD. The fact that Lucy "had to" murder him but they left the two women alive was just STUPIDITY personified. These women see a time travel machine and they left them alive and unharmed ? Utter nonsense. This is fiction. Yes, killing MC would have changed history, but that's the point. You can do that in a fictional show. Let the accomplishments she hadn't done yet, go undone or be done by someone else, and let them deal with the fallout. It makes for a far more interesting show. Oh boo hoo we can't kill them, she won't accomplish what she's supposed to accomplish ? *FACEPALM*

Matt Lanter's expression never, EVER changes.  It's unbearable to the point of being painful, watching him when he SHOULD be emoting. He has Resting Constipated Face.

I can't buy into the closeness these three are supposed to share if you don't show it. I never saw genuine emotion from any of them. That moment where the three are reunited meant nothing, because they though the others were dead for a total of five minutes. The show couldn't have stretched out the reunion for a few episodes ? Couldn't have written some genuine emotional moments where they are missing each other ? All right then.

I don't buy into why granddaddy has to be brought to the present. Didn't they say he wrote some manifesto ? If he wrote it, why do they need him in the flesh to lead them ? Do they not know how to read ? Okay then.

I do think Flynn is from the future, and Connor, who is keeping himself busy, by the end of the season will have come up with a way to travel to the future and to go to a time when you've already existed. Speaking of Flynn, him only being in the last thirty seconds of the show just emphasized how lackluster the previous 40 minutes had been. There is definitely something lacking when Flynn is not interacting with the rest of the characters. Goran elevates everyone else's performance, and thus far I cannot say that anyone else really brings that out of their cast mates.

[orza]

8 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Totally random question that may have been answered in the S1 threads, but is Flynn from the future since he has/had Lucy's journal? If so, how is that possible? First, aren't they not supposed to travel to a time where they already existed? And second, Flynn would have needed to have a time machine already, so why would he travel back to 2017 to steal the mothership if he already (presumably) had it?

It was established in Space Race that Flynn is originally from the present. He traveled back to 1969 to save his older brother from a fatal bee sting. In the final scene the gang verified that Flynn's mother remarried and Flynn was born a few years after the bee sting incident, putting his age at around 45, which matches Flynn's apparent physical age in the present. He may have traveled to the future at some point or older Lucy traveled back to the past by means that is yet to be explained, but Flynn was born in the early 1970s.

[Mulva]

Quote

These women see a time travel machine and they left them alive and unharmed ? Utter nonsense.

Not just two women, two scientists!  One of whom was acknowledged world-wide as being brilliant.  Yeah, that makes sense.

[iMonrey]

They really have no way of knowing it's a time machine though. (Unless . . . did Emma, Lucy or Carol stupidly mention this in front of them?) All they saw was some huge white ball. Could have been anything.

By the same token, the soldier in the cabin saw nothing but defibrillator paddles. So what? All he could tell anyone was that they seemed to be trying to kill the patient with some kind of electrical gadget. But I think this was more about Emma wanting to test Lucy than about eliminating an eyewitness.

[legaleagle53]

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

They really have no way of knowing it's a time machine though. (Unless . . . did Emma, Lucy or Carol stupidly mention this in front of them?) All they saw was some huge white ball. Could have been anything.

By the same token, the soldier in the cabin saw nothing but defibrillator paddles. So what? All he could tell anyone was that they seemed to be trying to kill the patient with some kind of electrical gadget. But I think this was more about Emma wanting to test Lucy than about eliminating an eyewitness.

It was also about the fact that the eyewitness was endangering their patient by trying to interfere with the operation.  As Emma said, they really didn't have time to deal with his histrionics.  Not when their patient's life -- as well as their mission -- was at stake.

By contrast, there was no reason for Emma to kill Marie and Irène.  They had only seen the outside of the timeship and would have had no idea what it was or what it did -- their presence would in no way have jeopardized Carol and Emma's objective of retrieving Carol's grandfather, unlike the soldier, whose actions actually DID threaten the success of their mission.  And there's no telling how disastrous killing them would have been for history -- you can't just assume that someone else would have accomplished what they were meant to accomplish or that it wouldn't have been that big a deal if those things were never accomplished.  Millions of future lives could have been affected or even erased because their life-saving work was cut prematurely short.  Would you really want that on YOUR conscience, especially if you or one of your own loved ones turned out to be part of the resulting collateral damage to history?

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Millions of future lives could have been affected or even erased because their life-saving work was cut prematurely short.  Would you really want that on YOUR conscience, especially if you or one of your own loved ones turned out to be part of the resulting collateral damage to history?

It seems that all those years of living in Jesse James territory left Emma without a conscience. We haven't been told what's so important about the Rittenhouse mission, so I'm going to guess Emma needs the mission (whatever the hell it is) to succeed so she won't regret spending the prime of her life in exile in the 19th century Wild West.

[legaleagle53]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

It seems that all those years of living in Jesse James territory left Emma without a conscience. We haven't been told what's so important about the Rittenhouse mission, so I'm going to guess Emma needs the mission (whatever the hell it is) to succeed so she won't regret spending the prime of her life in exile in the 19th century Wild West.

Oh, I know Emma has ice water in her veins, which is why she had zero fucks to give about the soldier, Marie, Irène, Lucy, or even Carol, for that matter (in fact, I imagine she'd turn on Carol in a heartbeat for being too "soft" on Lucy if she saw that as a liability).  I was actually asking a semi-rhetorical question of the original poster who said that it was stupid to let Marie and Irène live after having seen the mothership when in his/her mind, the soldier had been unnecessarily killed for less.

[Dowel Jones]

Although I didn't rewatch to see why Grandpa Rittendude was in heart failure, i.e., trauma or heart malfunction, I would like to add that an AED doesn't really work on trauma codes, such as a battlefield injury.  In this case the heart has stopped due to blood loss or direct injury, neither of which an AED can correct.  It merely stops the heart by shocking it, allowing the brain to restart sending the correct electrical pulses to get the heart beating in the correct rhythm again.  I know television routinely shows people being shocked back into life and conciousness, but it rarely ever happens that way.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Although I didn't rewatch to see why Grandpa Rittendude was in heart failure, i.e., trauma or heart malfunction, I would like to add that an AED doesn't really work on trauma codes, such as a battlefield injury.  In this case the heart has stopped due to blood loss or direct injury, neither of which an AED can correct.  It merely stops the heart by shocking it, allowing the brain to restart sending the correct electrical pulses to get the heart beating in the correct rhythm again.  I know television routinely shows people being shocked back into life and conciousness, but it rarely ever happens that way.

Yeah, also, I heard an NPR podcast recently on which it was stated that upwards from 90% of medical professionals sign DNRs for themselves because in reality, 3% of people who are given CPR survive with all of their brain function. 

 

ETA: like what @Clanstarling said below, this low rate of successful survival applies to flatliners.

Edited March 16, 2018 by shapeshifter

[SecretSK]

8 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

It was also about the fact that the eyewitness was endangering their patient by trying to interfere with the operation.  As Emma said, they really didn't have time to deal with his histrionics.  Not when their patient's life -- as well as their mission -- was at stake.

By contrast, there was no reason for Emma to kill Marie and Irène.  They had only seen the outside of the timeship and would have had no idea what it was or what it did -- their presence would in no way have jeopardized Carol and Emma's objective of retrieving Carol's grandfather, unlike the soldier, whose actions actually DID threaten the success of their mission.  And there's no telling how disastrous killing them would have been for history -- you can't just assume that someone else would have accomplished what they were meant to accomplish or that it wouldn't have been that big a deal if those things were never accomplished.  Millions of future lives could have been affected or even erased because their life-saving work was cut prematurely short.  Would you really want that on YOUR conscience, especially if you or one of your own loved ones turned out to be part of the resulting collateral damage to history?

Yeah, the logic that they were expendable because they saw a big white machine they didn't even know was a time machine at all, and that their discoveries could just be done by someone else is far more ridiculous than Lucy killing someone when backed into a corner. She killed a soldier we aren't even sure survived in the original timeline. I'm not saying she thought it all the way through, but I'm genuinely shocked so many people are judging Lucy so harshly.

 

I'm just saying, if we're going to suggest that killing either or both Curie women would have been more logical, I'd like to point out that scientific discoveries like theirs don't just happen ahd anyone could do it. Sure, Marie Curie had already won the Nobel Prize twice before we met her on the show in 1918. I guess that makes her easy to dispatch from the timeline. Except, what Timeless didn't mention is that Marie's daughter, Irene, also went on to win her own Nobel Prize alongside her husband in 1935. They discovered artificial radioactivity, a way to induce radioactivity in non radioactive elements. Their discoveries impacted medical treatments, biomedical research and the creation of the atomic bomb, to name a few. So, yeah, if we're going to talk about logic, taking either one of these women out of the timeline in 1918 would have been beyond catastrophic to future events.

Edited March 16, 2018 by SecretSK

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah, also, I heard an NPR podcast recently on which it was stated that upwards from 90% of medical professionals sign DNRs for themselves because in reality, 3% of people who are given CPR survive with all of their brain function. 

From the CPR classes I have to take every year from our first responders, my understanding is that the AEDs work best on people whose heart beat has gotten erratic, where it shocks them back into rhythm, and almost never works on flatlines.

So they are life savers, just not life restorers, as it were.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Clanstarling

[benteen]

So glad to have this show back and all its fun, crazy plot.s

Wyatt was the same annoying loose cannon in the first couple of minutes as he was last season and I wish Agent Christopher would have brought this up to him and thrown all the times he had screwed up right into his face.  He finally settled down later on and was...gasp...competent when carrying out his mission.  Very rare for Wyatt.

I also like the sleeper cells in history idea and at least it gives something concrete to Rittenhouse's plans other than the vagueness of last season.

[methodwriter85]

Glad to have the show back, even if it's only for 10 episodes. This did seem to have a much tighter focus than season 1 did.

I'm guessing Emma killed off Amy's entire bloodline. That seems to be the only way to ensure she would never exist.

We'll see what Grandpa is going to do.

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/14/2018 at 3:25 AM, Raja said:

A sleeper agent is an Infantry Captain on a WWI battlefield? They had a life expectancy measured in days. Rittenhouse must have an infinite supply of agents

They probably have a longer life span when they know exactly what battles are coming up and what battalions fought in them. 

[Liliana]

There is a mistake in the description, probably even the official Marie Curie aka Maria Skłodowska-Curie was Polish, she was born in Poland, she began her study in Poland, she worked in France. She named the element polonium, after Poland.

https://www.polska.pl/tourism/nobel-laureates/maria-sklodowska-curie/

https://www.biography.com/people/marie-curie-9263538

It's sad how  history is forgotten, even in a show that's about history. Maybe Rittenhouse changed it ...

I will add a little-known fact that Poles broke Eniega first, which is almost never mentioned
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/polish-codebreakers-cracked-enigma-before-alan-turing/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3448817/How-Poles-cracked-Enigma-Turing-Country-launches-campaign-heroes-broke-code-1930s-recognised.html

I'm happy the show came back

Edited March 20, 2018 by Liliana

[iingolfsson]

Ok we have this badass soldier but he really can't shoot a gun. I the end clip at the mothership he could easily shoot booth of them right after Lucy was free it was only Emma who had a gun.

[Daltrey]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎11 at 11:21 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I hope they expand on Jiya's fainting, like in the first season finale, or her eyes rolling up and collapsing will become much more amusing instead of dramatic.

Did we see anything from season one to explain what might be causing this to happen? I kind of remember seeing it happen at the end of the season but I can't recall anything happening to her that would cause it. I think I remember her taking a trip in the lifeboat sometime prior to the fainting episode but nothing beyond that. Am I missing anything or is it just fodder for future storytelling?

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, Daltrey said:

I think I remember her taking a trip in the lifeboat sometime prior to the fainting episode but nothing beyond that. Am I missing anything or is it just fodder for future storytelling?

Her "episodes" are directly linked to her travelling as fourth person in the Lifeboat.

[Daltrey]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Her "episodes" are directly linked to her travelling as fourth person in the Lifeboat.

Ah, that's right! Thanks, I remember now; I thought that was the connection but I couldn't recall the details.

[KaveDweller]

On 3/19/2018 at 3:02 AM, methodwriter85 said:

Glad to have the show back, even if it's only for 10 episodes. This did seem to have a much tighter focus than season 1 did.

I'm guessing Emma killed off Amy's entire bloodline. That seems to be the only way to ensure she would never exist.

We'll see what Grandpa is going to do.

Well, they can always go back and stop Emma from killing whoever she killed. That seems to be the easiest part of it all. The hard (impossible) step would be getting Amy's parents to have sex at the exact time they did before in a way that she not only gets pregnant, but the genes split exactly the same way to create Amy exactly as she was.

I wonder if Emma has reason to not want Amy aside from just hurting Lucy. Maybe when Amy was around, and the mother married Amy's father she was less involved in Rittenhouse? And Emma somehow wants the mother to be a bigger deal in the organization?

14 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Her "episodes" are directly linked to her travelling as fourth person in the Lifeboat.

I hope they explain why she's the fourth person. If there is a limit to the number of people shouldn't everyone have been impacted by traveling with an extra person?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, KaveDweller said:

Well, they can always go back and stop Emma from killing whoever she killed. 

Although I can't remember who Amy is or whether or not any of the team were in the same time [not]zone when Emma killed her, I do recall from last season that there is a rule against going back to the same time more than once because if there are two of you it will cause the universe to implode--or maybe it will cause you (both of you) to implode?

[Clanstarling]

34 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Although I can't remember who Amy is or whether or not any of the team were in the same time [not]zone when Emma killed her, I do recall from last season that there is a rule against going back to the same time more than once because if there are two of you it will cause the universe to implode--or maybe it will cause you (both of you) to implode?

I think Amy is the sister who's lost to timeline changes.

[KaveDweller]

34 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Although I can't remember who Amy is or whether or not any of the team were in the same time [not]zone when Emma killed her, I do recall from last season that there is a rule against going back to the same time more than once because if there are two of you it will cause the universe to implode--or maybe it will cause you (both of you) to implode?

Emma didn't kill Amy, Amy is Lucy's sister that disappeared from existence in the pilot. The speculation was that Emma killed Amy's father or some other ancestor that would prevent her from existing. We don't know when this may have happened, but it seems unlikely to have been at a time Lucy and co were also time travelling.

[shapeshifter]

Thanks, @KaveDweller and @Clanstarling. Amy seems to be the Timeless version of Walt(!) from Lost, except its more of a plaintive ask about "my sister" from Lucy instead a cry for "Walt!" by name, so I forgot who "Amy" was. Or maybe it was wishful thinking on my part that the writers would forget about Amy (and Rittenhouse!). At least there seems to be some hope that they might let Wyatt's wife go—or am I foolish to think that?

[CooperTV]

6 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I hope they explain why she's the fourth person. If there is a limit to the number of people shouldn't everyone have been impacted by traveling with an extra person?

Timeless Wiki says Rufus talked about the three people only rule at some point last season. I was somehow under impression that it's related to the combined mass of the objects traveling through time-space but I've no idea if this true, so that's some sort of fanwank.

[KaveDweller]

On 3/24/2018 at 2:21 AM, CooperTV said:

Timeless Wiki says Rufus talked about the three people only rule at some point last season. I was somehow under impression that it's related to the combined mass of the objects traveling through time-space but I've no idea if this true, so that's some sort of fanwank.

I remember them talking about the rule last season. What I don't totally get is why breaking that rule and  travelling with 4 people would only impact 1 of those four.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I remember them talking about the rule last season. What I don't totally get is why breaking that rule and  travelling with 4 people would only impact 1 of those four.

Good question. I hadn't even thought about that.

[shapeshifter]

On March 26, 2018 at 8:05 AM, Clanstarling said:

On March 25, 2018 at 10:04 PM, KaveDweller said:

I remember them talking about the rule last season. What I don't totally get is why breaking that rule and  travelling with 4 people would only impact 1 of those four.

Good question. I hadn't even thought about that.

It could be random, especially if this is true:

On March 25, 2018 at 10:04 PM, KaveDweller said:

. I was somehow under impression that it's related to the combined mass of the objects traveling through time-space but I've no idea if this true, so that's some sort of fanwank

[possibilities]

My theory is that there's something in the seats that protects the travelers. So if Jiya was a stowaway and not properly strapped in, she somehow didn't get the protective effect.

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

My theory is that there's something in the seats that protects the travelers. So if Jiya was a stowaway and not properly strapped in, she somehow didn't get the protective effect.

I don't think she was a stowaway.  There was a specific reason she went back as the fourth person in the lifeboat, but I don't remember what it was off the top of my head.

[possibilities]

But they didn't have enough proper chairs, I think, either way, IIRC.

[phalange]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I don't think she was a stowaway.  There was a specific reason she went back as the fourth person in the lifeboat, but I don't remember what it was off the top of my head.

Rufus had just been shot on the previous mission, so Jiya had to pilot the lifeboat. Which means, in all likelihood, she was actually properly buckled up in the pilot's seat. 

[Stuffy]

Maybe it's like the movie Contact where Jodie Foster had a chair but didn't need it. She would've been smashed if she hadn't unbuckled. In Timeless it's the opposite you need a chair or there's medical consequences.