S19.E13: The Undiscovered Country

[MaggieG]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I honestly thought Barba was about to blurt out that he was in love with Benson and wanted to be with her forever during his final rant about how much he worshipped Benson. I was relieved that didn’t happen, I thought they were about to go the Barson route and I would’ve thrown up. It was so stupid how they made it that Barba would devote his life to trying to get in bed with a fat bitchy cow a decade older than him and that Benson is the only person in the world who cares about Barba. Notice how no one else was sitting behind Barba in the courtroom, not even his mother! I hate how they destroyed Barba’s character and made him revolve entirely around Benson. 

There were a lot of annoying things about this episode but I think this bothered me the most. Rollins, Carisi and Finn didn't even come to his trial! Only Benson cares.

12 hours ago, natalie wood said:

Branch did tell her she’d be a better advocate but I believe it was after she asked if it was b/c she was a lesbian.

I could be wrong about this since it has been forever since seeing the episode, but didn't she say "Is it because I'm a lesbian?" and then boom, the credits.  I remember it being very abrupt and that was part of the controversy.

[Xeliou66]

No after Serena asked if she was fired because she was a lesbian, a startled Branch replied “No.No, of course not” and Serena replied “that’s good, that’s good” and then the episode ended.

[QueenMab]

Like others here, I had a feeling RE had to be getting unhappy with the writing for his character. Warren Leight left, and Barba was left to the mercy of some truly boneheaded writers and whatever Executive Producer MH wanted them to write, and Barba just went "off the rails". As far as Esparza's comments about anything or anyone on the show...his world is New York. Stage and screen and it's small. I've just summed it all up as " not burning any bridges". And all this exit episode did is prove it was definitely time for Barba to go. It was a stupid, over the top soap opera piece of shit that proved the writers have had no idea what to do with the character since Leight left except attach him to Benson's ass and systematically run it into the ground. We wondered how long Esparza would hang in with that, now we know. They couldn't even do him the courtesy of popping a couple thousand bucks for Mercedes Rhuele ( who was spot on as OG Barba) to have his "momi" who is the closest person in the world to Barba sitting in the courtroom supporting her only cub? Even at the very end they had to glorify Benson as the only one on the planet who cares about him. Apparently, Benson even took over the duties of being his mother too. And they even changed an important part of his personal history just to accommodate this hunk of crap episode. Am I the only one who remembers Barba telling Amaro in "Padre Sandungero" .."I know what it's like to have to face down your old man. Mine's been dead FIFTEEN years and my hand still curls into a fist everytime I think of him" ?!? WTF? I said in a comment about a week ago that if Esparza wants out he may not care how it goes.."just do it" and be done with it. It looks like I was right. And I still believe Barba was modeled after Perry Mason. DUH! 

[preeya]

SVU may be over for me. The plotlines are getting too political, I'm not a fan of Jack McCoy, I'll never warm up to the Chicago Law A.D.A., and Benson is really getting on my nerves with her flip-flop attitudes/beliefs.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

He complimented the emotional complexity of his exit episode, but I have a hard time believing he was ecstatic that one of Rafael's last acts was to kill a baby and go on trial. It certainly wasn't the exit he imagined (whatever that was)

Now I'm wondering if he was written out that way as "punishment" for abandoning the ship as it were. If not, maybe they needed to get rid of somebody to make room for Philip Winchester's salary as Stone and RE drew the short straw.

I wonder if Mariska has any clue how much of a raging egomaniac she's looking like right now. The show is quite possibly being destroyed due to the weight of her massive head.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[sockii]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:35 PM, Gigglepuff said:

I don't think that this ep in particular destroyed Barba's character at all. His character weakened in some ways over the last few seasons (my feelings), but I actually liked him and understood him in this one.

Many people are in support of right to die and right to die legislation has been passed  in many western countries. What Barba did was legally wrong of course and I understand why they had to prosecute him, but still, I don't doubt that he was acting out of compassion, and I'm glad the jury found him not guilty. People, societies will debate right to die until the end of time and there will always be advocates and detractors. I actually thought this ep did a fairly decent job depicting that. 

I must say that everyone knocked it out of the park tonight, especially the actress who played the mom and Raul. Characters leave shows, and I though this was a decent send off for Barba. He did what he thought was right, just like he did in the beginning. This ep was kind of like an old school episode, one that made you think and consider both sides of the coin. 

Agree with all of the above. I thought it was excellent, the closest to an old school episode we've had in quite a while. Made me think of "Mercy" in particular, and also "Painless" and "Parts". There were/are no easy answers to these topics and for me the best SVU (and L&O in general) episodes brought that home.

My S.O. also agreed—it was the first SVU episode he hasn't fallen asleep half-way through since last season's "Know It All". Seeing Waterston made me all nostalgic and made me realize just how much I missed McCoy. The only bad parts for me were the continued Praise of St. Benson, but that's basically inescapable at this point of the series, alas.

Now I only hope they don't turn Stone into Benson's lapdog too quickly.

[dttruman]

10 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

If you read the subtext of his exit interview, Raul was definitely unhappy with the writing and characterization for Rafael in season 18 (understandably, since the legal writing was often dumb last season). He seems very complimentary of Michael's legal writing, but I wonder if he truly likes some of the stuff. He complimented the emotional complexity of his exit episode, but I have a hard time believing he was ecstatic that one of Rafael's last acts was to kill a baby and go on trial. It certainly wasn't the exit he imagined (whatever that was). I have rarely had a problem with the way Raul acted his part, but I often had serious qualms about the quality of writing for his character. He acted dumb and out of character at times, because he was poorly written at times. I bet Raul really missed Warren, because he wrote better for Rafael.

Would everyone agree that SVU has proven the theory that even good actors can't save bad writing?

[ChristiKRN]

I quite possibly could be reading into this, but in the exit interview, Raul spoke of his friendship with Mariska only.  Compiled with no final scenes with and no social media comments that I saw from the other core cast members, was there some bad blood?  I don't think there was much interaction between Barba and Fin and only slightly more with Rollins but Carisi had built somewhat of a relationship with Barba when he was pursuing his law degree.  I was a little surprised that he didn't have a moment with him or that Carisi did not support him at the trial.  

I'm still shaking my head over the destruction of Barba in the past year or so.  I'm not going to miss this Barba; I will sorely miss the  Leight-years Barba, though. 

[Sake614]

So st. Olivia was ripping Peter a new one when she’s never even met him? All because he did his job. I can’t wait to see how they work together going forward and I really hope he puts her in her place. 

 

Oh and the whole ‘Rafael Barba is the best ada I’ve ever worked with’? Bullshit! What about Alex? Or Casey? They could both run rings around Barba. Especially Alex. That’s like when she told Amaro that with him as a partner she grew as a person and a cop. And that Elliott held her back. 

 

As for the Home on sheepshead Bay? I’m sure people who actually live there wish they’re homes looked like that. The reality is it’s a densely packed neighborhood of row houses with a few semi or fully detached homes and lots of apartment buildings. I think that scene was filmed in gerritsen beach or maybe mill basin. But it sure as hell wasnt sheepshead Bay. 

[preeya]

10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I wonder if Mariska has any clue how much of a raging egomaniac she's looking like right now. The show is quite possibly being destroyed due to the weight of her massive head.

Which leads us to her walking into a hostage situation, unarmed and then ends the scene with " I'm a cop, Aaron. I know you're not a killer. And I know a paintball gun when I see it."

GMAFB

[MrsRafaelBarba]

When SVU finally ends, I think some piping hot tea will be spilled.

 

About what happened bits, specifically after the 911 episode and Emmy win.

 

Plus I've always side eyed the way Det. Jefferies was written out.

[dttruman]

7 hours ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

Plus I've always side eyed the way Det. Jefferies was written out.

The first episode that sided eyed me was when Cabot's death was faked and the hitman stood trial for her murder and was found guilty. Can they really do that? Did they actually come up with a plausible reason (or excuse) to explain that? If so I missed it.

[Sake614]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

The first episode that sided eyed me was when Cabot's death was faked and the hitman stood trial for her murder and was found guilty. Can they really do that? Did they actually come up with a plausible reason (or excuse) to explain that? If so I missed it.

He wasn’t found guilty of her murder, he was guilty of murdering that little boy’s mother and for attempted murder on Alex.

[MizStaken]

Goodbye Raphael Barba, you sexy beast. Wish we could have learned more about you and less of the exploits of Olivia and Noah. Honestly, if there was a real person who had all the things happen to them that Olivia has experienced, wouldn’t they have gotten the hell out of nyc by now? Can we just call the show what it is now,  Law and Order: the Olivia Benson variety show? 

And I thought the mother unplugged the vent and he just watched her do it? I guess I need to pay better attention, or not. 

[dttruman]

30 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

He wasn’t found guilty of her murder, he was guilty of murdering that little boy’s mother and for attempted murder on Alex.

Thanks for correcting me on that, my bad. I  remember something about the guys being arrested for Cabot's murder and I thought there was some technicality there.

[Sake614]

He was originally charged with her murder but when she showed up in court very much alive, it threw the whole case into disarray. I don’t remember how they were able to turn it around but in the end, he was convicted of her attempted murder.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, preeya said:

Which leads us to her walking into a hostage situation, unarmed and then ends the scene with " I'm a cop, Aaron. I know you're not a killer. And I know a paintball gun when I see it."

GMAFB

Which makes me wonder, if Olivia knows a paintball gun when she sees one, why doesn't the tactical team who train for this kind of thing and were watching the house through their scopes recognize a paintball gun?

[dttruman]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which makes me wonder, if Olivia knows a paintball gun when she sees one, why doesn't the tactical team who train for this kind of thing and were watching the house through their scopes recognize a paintball gun?

 

I am still trying to figure out where the hostage negotiator was, because everybody was there before Benson showed up. Isn't the SWAT team leader in charge and makes the decisions?

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Which makes me wonder, if Olivia knows a paintball gun when she sees one, why doesn't the tactical team who train for this kind of thing and were watching the house through their scopes recognize a paintball gun?

Aw, I was trying not to think about the guys with the high powered scopes because I actually liked the "and I know a paintball gun when I see it" line.

And When pod Barba said, "Sometimes you have to act without concern for consequences," I appreciated how they at least hung a lantern on it with the line that came out of Olivia's mouth, "Not you. You wear suspenders and a belt."

But I couldn't have been the only one who wasn't sure if I was supposed to laugh or cringe at the end when Barba's soliquy to Olivia included "50 shades of gray."

[dttruman]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Aw, I was trying not to think about the guys with the high powered scopes because I actually liked the "and I know a paintball gun when I see it" line.

I thought it was a good line at first, but then I thought how would she know that from outside. Going in unarmed, where she would now become a hostage was a bad attempt at over dramatizing mock heroics.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, dttruman said:

I thought it was a good line at first, but then I thought how would she know that from outside. Going in unarmed, where she would now become a hostage was a bad attempt at over dramatizing mock heroics.

Yes. It's like they come up with a few good zingers and shoehorn them into the script even when and where they don't make sense. Like this one...

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And When pod Barba said, "Sometimes you have to act without concern for consequences," I appreciated how they at least hung a lantern on it with the line that came out of Olivia's mouth, "Not you. You wear suspenders and a belt."

...surely must've been written for Finn.

[Gigglepuff]

Benson's line to Stone, "You don't have kids, do you?" What in the ever loving hell f*** that have to do with anything? Barba doesn't have kids either, (that we know of, it was never really expressed as far as I know), but really, just a few short years ago, Benson herself would flip out any time someone mentioned her "childfree" status or accuse her of not understanding whatever situation because of it. So now, she's going to add judging people on whether or not they're parents to her list of delightful characteristics? Man, I hope Stone doesn't take her crap.  

[mtlchick]

21 hours ago, ChristiKRN said:

Compiled with no final scenes with and no social media comments that I saw from the other core cast members, was there some bad blood? 

Ice-T had tweeted something about it but looks like he deleted it.  From what I remember he said speaking for himself, he considered RB a friend, it was his call to leave and he knows he'll see him.  Speaking as Fin: "I don't give an F." 

[Iguessnot]

I couldn't believe what I just watched. My first question was why SVU on this case. Possibly kiddie nappings are under their jurisdiction, but I've forgotten.

Couldn't believe Benson told the mom that because the dad kidnapped the child, he probably wasn't going to hurt him. She did not say this to the mother to alleviate the mother's stress, which would be understandable. No, Saint Benson, who was informed that the dad threatened to kill the babysitter, knew he would never harm the baby -- because she's the knower of all things.

Was that an eulogy or an ethics in law lecture? Yes, I could figure out "exculpatory evidence" but the speech seemed directed to lawyers (and law show fans) but not to a wider funeral audience of family, friends and non-lawyering associates. However I never watched the original flavor Law & Order, so maybe he didn't associate with non-lawyers.

After a commercial break, the scene opens up with the mom in the interrogation room. I had to rewind to make sure I didn't miss a scene. She wasn't a suspect, so why was she put there. They talk to witnesses in the offices.

I'm not familiar with these things, but do infants get private rooms?

My jaw dropped when first Barba encouraged the mother to pull the plug and stood there are watched her struggle with the decision. She just told Barba the decision was in the courts, so why did he encourage her to do something that would land her in jail?  When she waivers, he does the deed. That wasn't even slick like talking on the phone about a case and not knowing the jurors are there.  It was just full on character assassination. 

Then the show does whatever it wants. Barba doesn't get arrested. There's no news coverage. Saint Olivia, a former detective, now Lieutenant, tells the ADA not to bring charges because she looks in Barba's eyes. A woman can get drunk and not remember if she consented and Olivia will demand charges on a questionable incident. Barba deliberately flips the switch on a random baby and she believes it should be ignored. Of course Barba is ruled not guilty maybe because he felt guilty. All rainbows and unicorns. Were there emojis flowing from Barba's mouth during his testimony? They sure were bouncing around during that last scene with Olivia. 

What a disgrace.

[Xeliou66]

What did Ice tweet about a beef with Raul? That sounds interesting, because it would seem that the only one that Raul or anyone else would have a beef with is Mariska since she hogs the screen time and makes everything about her and from what I hear is a huge diva as well. 

On 2/9/2018 at 10:28 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Now I'm wondering if he was written out that way as "punishment" for abandoning the ship as it were. If not, maybe they needed to get rid of somebody to make room for Philip Winchester's salary as Stone and RE drew the short straw.

I wonder if Mariska has any clue how much of a raging egomaniac she's looking like right now. The show is quite possibly being destroyed due to the weight of her massive head.

I don’t know if Mariska is just completely clueless and delusional and thinks everyone wants a ton of Benson, or if she just doesn’t give a fuck because she is getting to dominate the screen time and push her agenda. But she is ruining the show, all of the other characters and the stories are getting destroyed in order to have everything centered around Benson.

And to the previous post, yes child abductions do fall in SVU’s jurisdiction, and about McCoy’s eulogy, he was illustrating Stone’s dedication to upholding the law and his strong ethics, and since Peter Stone is Stone’s only surviving family member, a lot of the people in the room probably are people from the legal system. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Of course Barba is ruled not guilty maybe because he felt guilty.

That was another really confusing part for me. I assumed the prosecutor was trying to get Barba to admit that he felt guilty because that would essentially be an admission of guilt. Yes? No?

[Fiero425]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:58 AM, MaggieG said:

There were a lot of annoying things about this episode but I think this bothered me the most. Rollins, Carisi and Finn didn't even come to his trial! Only Benson cares.

I could be wrong about this since it has been forever since seeing the episode, but didn't she say "Is it because I'm a lesbian?" and then boom, the credits.  I remember it being very abrupt and that was part of the controversy.

After all these years, it still bothers me that ending scene! She was fired for not being blind to convicting the guy even though she was right! Branch likes his ADA's like McCoy; single-minded and going for the jugular; taking no prisoners! So be it if the wrong person is found guilty! lol! I thought she was probably on the way out when she stuck her neck out when 3 guys were being prosecuted for murder and were later found to be innocent as well! I could never work for Branch! ;-)

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fiero425

[millennium]

The return of Jack McCoy and the ghost of Ben Stone only underscore what a poor relation SVU is to the mother ship.  

A stupid episode overall, and a cheap parody of the moral dilemma which led to Ben Stone's resignation.   If you recall, Stone compelled a woman (Alison Janney) to testify against an underworld figure despite a legitimate threat to her life.   It was the only way to make his case.   When the woman is murdered, Stone resigns.

In Stone's case, somebody died because Stone followed a course of action one-hundred percent in keeping with his character.  

In Barba's case, someone died because Barba followed a course of action one-hundred percent antithetical to his character.

Does anyone who has watched this show all these years really believe Barba would kill that baby?   That he would violate everything he believed as a prosecutor and officer of the court to place his own feelings above the law?

The only surprising thing about this shitty episode is that Barba didn't throw his career away to save Noah from some threat-of-the-week.   It was refreshing to see there is at least one other child in New York City.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

Does anyone who has watched this show all these years really believe Barba would kill that baby?   That he would violate everything he believed as a prosecutor and officer of the court to place his own feelings above the law?

This could stand as a perfect example of a truly rhetorical question since the answer has to be a resounding "No," right? I'm not sure this would even have been believable if they'd worked in Barba in therapy all season about not "pulling the plug" on his abusive father. 

[Xeliou66]

Barba was just written completely OOC for most of this season, he deliberately tanked the case in Pathological when he could’ve just sent it to family court to start with, he made the decision to indict the whole company in Flight Risk just to please Benson by being a “feminist icon” and then he dropped the case midway through in Info Wars. So it didn’t surprise me when Barba went off the deep end and pulled the plug in this last episode. His relationship with Benson ruined SVU’s best prosecutor. 

And yeah present day SVU is a joke compared to the mothership, the original was all about the cases, SVU is now all about the trials and tribulations of condescending bitch Olivia and sex trafficker’s brat Noah. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Did some just call Noah sex traffickers brat?

 

 

 

:DEAD:

Edited February 11, 2018 by MrsRafaelBarba

[QueenMab]

Well, sex trafficker junkie hooker's brat to be precise. Some of us are of the opinion "blood will out" on that one, no matter how much of a " helicopter mom" Benson is. That's all....

....with a grandmother who is a bat poop nutball. Kid's DNA not exactly stellar. :)

[MamaMax]

Ok seriously did I hit my head and wake up 3 seasons in the future? Who were these people? What happened to Barba that he turned into a total idiot? What the hell was Bensons talking about -- that he is the most ethical person, like, EVA?  When the hell did Jack McCoy become DA? WTF?????????

[Willowsmom]

Benson happened to Barba. Or more correctly Executive producer Mariska Hargitay happened. Jack McCoy became DA in the last season of Law and Order.

[QueenMab]

Yeah.... who's EVA? WTF? About two seasons ago we were saying "Barba! RUN! Run away from Benson! She will take you straight down the road to career Hell! RUN!" He didn't listen and guess what? THAT'S what happened to Barba. OY!

[millennium]

1 hour ago, QueenMab said:

Yeah.... who's EVA? WTF? About two seasons ago we were saying "Barba! RUN! Run away from Benson! She will take you straight down the road to career Hell! RUN!" He didn't listen and guess what? THAT'S what happened to Barba. OY!

It does seem that getting close to Benson is the kiss of death for characters on this show: Barba, the former IA guy, Mayhem ... 

[wknt3]

On 2/8/2018 at 8:28 PM, dttruman said:

I was of the understanding that Michael Chernuchin had complete autonomy and he could write whatever he wanted (within reason). I thought he would come up with new scenarios and the writers would come up with plausible circumstances or excuses for regular episodes. But if he wrote something himself, then that was his "baby" and everybody had to follow it. I guess he doesn't have the clout to tell Hargitay that sometimes "it's not all about her".

Based on interviews with, and articles about, Warren Leight regarding his experience as SVU showrunner and my understanding of network television in general, he does not have complete autonomy. Dick Wolf and NBC are the final decision makers and when he was hired he was given general guidelines about what they wanted from the writing. In WL's case it was more grounded stories with increased realism, a dark gritty tone, and the general conception of Amaro as pretty explicit Stabler clone. Based on what was being said by those ultimately in charge at the time and what ended up on screen it seems that an increased focus on Benson was a directive from above too. It is obvious that Wolf and NBC believe that that if Mariska leaves the show is done and they are willing to indulge her and give her quite a bit of say in the creative process. They also have story and script approval and can tell whomever they hire that Benson will have a Benoah arc or that she will have X number of explicit spotlight episodes. I'm firmly of the belief that Chernuchin does not have complete autonomy - do the funeral scene and Benson telling Stone that she hopes he sucks or Barba and Liv's goodbye sound like they were from the same writer? There are definitely elements of the script I would associate with him like the courtroom scenes debating Important Social Issues and others I can ascribe to indifference or malice (Barba pulling the plug on his own) but there are a lot of Benson scenes that just don't seem to be coming from the same place as the rest of the script in this epsisode. And in others. As far as clout is concerned it's relative. WL and MC have experience and were brought in with cancellation a real possibility. Compare the second half of Season 17 or the first half of Season 19 with Season 18 and you can see that they obviously have clout and influence compared to Season 18 which is what happens when there is nobody able to push back against Mariska.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

It does seem that getting close to Benson is the kiss of death for characters on this show: Barba, the former IA guy, Mayhem ... 

Benson is a Bad News Buffet and anyone caught in her fallout is D.O.A. or SOL. It's one of the consistent gimmicks they have used over the years to keep Benson relevant.

[ForeverAlone]

The more I think about Rafael's final speech to Olivia, the weirder it becomes for me. Now let me preface this by saying that I was pleased with the outcome, meaning I was so glad and relieved Rafael walked away from Olivia and that seemed like a goodbye. A sad, emotionally charged goodbye, but a goodbye nonetheless. But I'm still trying to figure out the emotional reason behind that speech. When he started that speech out (and up until his final line), it sounds like he was confessing his love for her. So much so, I was afraid he would either propose or take her in his arms for a passionate kiss. And maybe he was. But why would being in love with someone cause someone that much pain, if they had such a positive influence on you? Why would they need to move on if they were in that much love? Unless what Rafael was saying (that she made him see colors-still pisses me off because it basically pisses on the first 15 years of his career and makes him seem like he was damaged when he came to SVU- and that now he became her) was that she was his emotional downfall and he needed to walk away. And I could wholeheartedly get behind that explanation, because so many SVU fans- except the Barson fans- have been saying for a while that Olivia's influence over Rafael has weakened his character and certainly weakened his professional competence. 

It's almost like the writers were trying to have it both ways. They have been throwing red meat to the Barson shippers for the past two seasons, but there seemed like an uptick this season. But they didn't seem to want to pull the trigger and have them actually in a relationship (even in an offscreen relationship now that Raul is no longer part of the show). So they basically had him tearfully confess his feelings (or at least it seemed, because he never actually said that he was in love with her), and then walk away. It's honestly kind of bizarre, and if I was on the receiving end of a speech like that, I wouldn't know what to think. I mean, a good friend of several  years (the writers never seemed to portray Olivia as desiring Rafael, because he was always the one making overtures of company to her, while she rebuffed him, so I have a hard time thinking she harbored this crush on him) just confesses that he can now see colors and his heart is opened because of me, but then tearfully kisses me on the forehead and says he must move on. I'd be thinking "WTF just happened?" Of course as an audience member, I'm still thinking that. 

[QueenMab]

David Haden, the Indian guy from Scotland yard, that ADA from Brooklyn that went gay .. :)

[QueenMab]

Barba and Benson had six years to work it out. Love is loud and proud. If he thought she was "the one" he had plenty of time to move to another job in the DA's office, put a ring on it and make it a relationship that stood the light of day test. He didn't. Also, the one thing that told me she wasn't his love happened in the episode " December Solstice" where OG Barba, his momi Lucilla showed up. Barba had been "working" with Benson for almost three years, and bitching about it to his mom, because it was safe to tell her everything, and Benson had yet to meet his mother. For a Cubano, close to his mother, if Benson was the object of his desire, he would have introduced her to his mom waaaay back. As it was, Benson barged in to a conversation he was having with Lucilla and ignored her like she was invisible, showing what a domineering clod she was and Barba looked like he wanted to sink through the floor, then introduced her to his mother who (yay mom!) snarked at her "Benson, he talks about you. You drive him a little crazy" then gave that Barba half smirk that told me...momi don't like that bitch. No Latina mother would do that to the woman she knows her son is in love with no matter how she felt about it. She would have just smiled and said hello. Later when he asks Benson what she thinks she'll be doing when she's 85 , in her arrogance and conceit, Benson says " oh wrangling with you". ??!? And Barba looks off with that Faraway look in his eyes and says " wouldn't that be nice". That comment and look told me   ."yeah, be nice if we could do that but that would mean my career went absolutely nowhere and I've got plans..not going to happen". That's why this constant shipping of Barson was so silly to me. It was clear right off, Benson wasn't his lifemate choice.

[Lebanna]

45 minutes ago, QueenMab said:

Barba and Benson had six years to work it out. Love is loud and proud. If he thought she was "the one" he had plenty of time to move to another job in the DA's office, put a ring on it and make it a relationship that stood the light of day test. He didn't. Also, the one thing that told me she wasn't his love happened in the episode " December Solstice" where OG Barba, his momi Lucilla showed up. Barba had been "working" with Benson for almost three years, and bitching about it to his mom, because it was safe to tell her everything, and Benson had yet to meet his mother. For a Cubano, close to his mother, if Benson was the object of his desire, he would have introduced her to his mom waaaay back. As it was, Benson barged in to a conversation he was having with Lucilla and ignored her like she was invisible, showing what a domineering clod she was and Barba looked like he wanted to sink through the floor, then introduced her to his mother who (yay mom!) snarked at her "Benson, he talks about you. You drive him a little crazy" then gave that Barba half smirk that told me...momi don't like that bitch. No Latina mother would do that to the woman she knows her son is in love with no matter how she felt about it. She would have just smiled and said hello. Later when he asks Benson what she thinks she'll be doing when she's 85 , in her arrogance and conceit, Benson says " oh wrangling with you". ??!? And Barba looks off with that Faraway look in his eyes and says " wouldn't that be nice". That comment and look told me   ."yeah, be nice if we could do that but that would mean my career went absolutely nowhere and I've got plans..not going to happen". That's why this constant shipping of Barson was so silly to me. It was clear right off, Benson wasn't his lifemate choice.

Yes, but mami Lucía rolling her eyes at Benson and the whole  'squabbling with you' conversation happened back when frankly their relationship was still defined by Barba standing up to Benson and telling her off sometimes. They bickered constantly and even fell out often. Lucía clearly verbally rolled her eyes at Benson because Rafael did so when he talked about Benson to her. That was at the tail end of Barba actually being himself and he and Benson actually being kind of cute on some level (IMO). The two of them were so much better when there was that level of antagonism there. The stupidity of the writers deciding to lose that will never cease to amaze me.

That was all long before this travesty of an episode. Long before Barba was neutered like an unlucky tomcat this season. Almost like this show has fallen into an evil mirror universe since then. (Insert Spock's barba joke here) *bilingual bonus*

Edited February 11, 2018 by Lebanna

[millennium]

8 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

The more I think about Rafael's final speech to Olivia, the weirder it becomes for me.

You mean you weren't moved by I'm you now, Olivia?

LOL, it sounds like something a stalker would say, picture Michael Emerson in the role ...  I'm you now, Olivia.  Now every episode will be about me.   I'll suck up more and more dialogue until characters like Parisi and Rollins exist only to say "Are you okay, Lieutenant?" and "The Chief is on line three."  I will chew up every scene and spit out Finn when I'm done.   Each week viewers will tune in to see me react to the latest threat against Noah, be it an outbreak of chicken pox or a suitcase nuke secretly switched with his Minions lunchbox.  I am you now, Olivia!  Abandon all hope, ye who tune in here ...

Edited February 12, 2018 by millennium

[RafaelBarbas]

On 2/11/2018 at 12:46 AM, shapeshifter said:

That was another really confusing part for me. I assumed the prosecutor was trying to get Barba to admit that he felt guilty because that would essentially be an admission of guilt. Yes? No?

Essentially he created a no-win paradox. If Barba is guilty, he is admitting guilt, ergo knowledge of wrongness in his actions. If he doesn't, he comes across as remorseless, a potential reoffender. The jury however managed to parse his answer.

[catrice2]

Why does everyone's character have to be called into question except St. Olivia?  Nowhere would this group of misfits still be together.  Michlle Hurd's character was taken off for a BS reason about not being able to "handle" the squad, but Elliott was allowed to stay for years with his anger issues and Olivia clearly has trouble remaining objective.  Although they tried to take Danny Pino's character and make him basically the same person he was on Cold Case, he too had to have his character destroyed over anger/jealousy issues.  Rollins is a drunk gambler that is a functioning addict, after years of being sober Dann Florek went to prostitutes,  Adam Beach was also accused of something...I could go on and on.   After being raped, terrorized, etc. we are to believe that Olivia can remain objective and be a good leader and investigator.  I remember (only with Stabler) when this show was tolerable.  I was cheering when Benson was on leave and Connie Neilson (??) was on there.  Not content to just ruin in house cops, they also had to make the one she was undercover with in the hate group a serial killer, and Pam Grier some type of liar.  But only Olivia survives unscathed!!  Now Barba, the one person I thought was going to escape and the write this crap.  Truth be told, I read most of it on this board, I fast forwarded through most everything except the Jack scenes.  Although I really loved Jack and Lenny (with almost anybody) I have a special spot for Stone and Robinette, and the detectives in those seasons.  

I honestly do not remember ever getting the impression that Jack and Ben were so close that Jack would be giving the eulogy...so my shock at Ben being dead was two fold. 

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Why does everyone's character have to be called into question except St. Olivia?  Nowhere would this group of misfits still be together.  Michlle Hurd's character was taken off for a BS reason about not being able to "handle" the squad, but Elliott was allowed to stay for years with his anger issues and Olivia clearly has trouble remaining objective.  Although they tried to take Danny Pino's character and make him basically the same person he was on Cold Case, he too had to have his character destroyed over anger/jealousy issues.  Rollins is a drunk gambler that is a functioning addict, after years of being sober Dann Florek went to prostitutes,  Adam Beach was also accused of something...I could go on and on.   After being raped, terrorized, etc. we are to believe that Olivia can remain objective and be a good leader and investigator.  I remember (only with Stabler) when this show was tolerable.  I was cheering when Benson was on leave and Connie Neilson (??) was on there.  Not content to just ruin in house cops, they also had to make the one she was undercover with in the hate group a serial killer, and Pam Grier some type of liar.  But only Olivia survives unscathed!!  Now Barba, the one person I thought was going to escape and the write this crap.  Truth be told, I read most of it on this board, I fast forwarded through most everything except the Jack scenes.  Although I really loved Jack and Lenny (with almost anybody) I have a special spot for Stone and Robinette, and the detectives in those seasons.  

I honestly do not remember ever getting the impression that Jack and Ben were so close that Jack would be giving the eulogy...so my shock at Ben being dead was two fold. 

The thing is, Olivia is the most biased and worst cop on the squad who is always letting her personal feelings interfere with her job, the show will just never acknowledge that Benson can be wrong because Mariska’s enormous ego won’t allow it. They make Benson out to be some saint but a lot of the viewers see her for what she is, a terrible cop and boss and a complete bitch.

About Stone and McCoy, we never saw them together because McCoy wasn’t on the show yet when Stone left but they did work in the DA’s office at the same time for a while and it’s not surprising they were friends. And it made sense for McCoy to deliver the eulogy since he is the current DA and Stone was a well respected former DA.

One thing that I wondered about was when Peter Stone said he was Ben’s only remaining family member, I remembered that Stone mentioned a daughter to Schiff in a mothership episode, I wonder what happened to her. I assume the writers just forgot, but it would be nice if Peter mentioned having a sister who had died several years prior just for the continuity. 

BTW, did anyone see the deleted scene with Benson, Barba and Dworkin at the restaurant? Again very weird how Benson and Barba are dining at a very upscale restaurant late at night it appears as well, that relationship was just incredibly weird, and it got exceptionally strange this season, I have no idea why they did this but the whole Barson relationship nauseated me. But Dworkin was awesome as always in that deleted scene, always cool to see him.

[wknt3]

26 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

BTW, did anyone see the deleted scene with Benson, Barba and Dworkin at the restaurant? Again very weird how Benson and Barba are dining at a very upscale restaurant late at night it appears as well, that relationship was just incredibly weird, and it got exceptionally strange this season, I have no idea why they did this but the whole Barson relationship nauseated me. But Dworkin was awesome as always in that deleted scene, always cool to see him.

I haven't seen it, but I'll have to check it out when I get a chance. The deleted scenes this year have been consistently of a higher quality than much of what makes it on air. It's also interesting to see how many plot holes, story issues, etc. are a result of those scenes being cut. To me it's another piece of evidence that the central problem isn't a lack of talent on the writing side, but a mandate that they have to spend a certain amount of time on Benson's personal life or how the case affects her. Think about how much better these episodes would be if the extras were in the show instead of the weakest Benoah scene or Liv's anguished whispering?

[ForeverAlone]

The Barson connection has been wonky since Warren left, in my opinion. Under Warren, Rafael and Olivia were good supportive friends, but they also didn't hesitate to go at each other if they were on opposite sides of a case. I never got a romantic vibe from Rafael toward Olivia. He was protective of her, but he is fairly protective of all the women he cares about. Then it seemed like Rafael was rolling over and allowing Olivia to pressure him on what cases to take to trial, even weak cases that should have never seen the inside of a courtroom. Plus it seemed like Rafael kept reaching out to Olivia, only to be rebuffed over and over again by her. Then whatever that weird, emotional goodbye speech that really didn't say all that much. Like I've said before, I think the writers and producers wanted to have it both ways. They couldn't actually put Rafael and Olivia in a relationship, but they played to the Barson fans as much as they could get away with, to the detriment of their professional relationship and Rafael's character development and professional competence. 

Even now, when Olivia is my least favorite character on SVU, I look back at how Rafael and Olivia's friendship and work relationship was written in seasons 14-17, and still appreciate what it was and how they interacted. It's only in the past two seasons where I really grew to hate the Barson connection more often than not.

Edited February 14, 2018 by ForeverAlone

[Xeliou66]

It was incredibly unprofessional how Barba and Benson were with each other, especially starting in season 18, they were always going out to these fancy restaurants, and yeah Benson was dressed as a macho masculine tough cop guy, and anyone who saw them would assume they were dating, what if a defense attorney ran into them, that would result in lots of questions and ethical issues. And it was laughable how Barba was practically begging Benson to date him and Benson kept rebuffing him, like a prominent ADA like Barba would even want to date a fat 55 year old bitchy cow and Benson would be the one who would be begging Barba to go out with her. And then Benson starting to call Barba “Rafa”, that’s for sure a lover’s pet name that was very bizarre how she started calling him that out of nowhere, very unprofessional and weird. And then Barba’s final scene is all about Benson, I thought he was about to fall down, kiss her feet and tell her that he would love and worship her for all eternity. 

The whole Barson relationship was sickening, extremely unprofessional and Benson completely ruined Barba’s objectivity, because of her influence he let his emotions take over and it ruined him.

[QueenMab]

Barba was a "born lawyer". RE is a Scorpio and that's how he played Barba for sure. The Law IS black and white, engraved in stone. The only shades are in how the law is applied but those "shades" have to be within the structure of the Law. This is the Barba we got at first and he was very successful. IT WAS HIS NATURE to think and make decisions like a lawyer. This cow convincing him to "forget the Law, do what is right" bullshit threw him waaay off track and damn near ruined his whole life. It would any prosecutor's. That he bought into it is where his character and the show went off the rails. 15 years at it and all of a sudden this emotional trainwreck of a cop has convinced him to stop practicing according to his lawyer nature and be an emotional trainwreck too?! PHOOEY! All they did with Barba is turn him into a puddle who was committing career suicide and didn't care because this cop told him to. Because it's the right thing to do? Bullshit!