Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It is still absolute crap when it comes to rules of time travel and the occasional plot point or continuity but somehow I mind a whole lot less on LoT than I do on Arrow or The Flash.   

I think it's because it's so unabashedly silly.

I watched the SC 2046 episode and realized that's actually the one LoT episode I have seen in full before. My impressions haven't changed. SA is great as old man Oliver, though the make up sucks and makes him look closer to 80 that very early 60s he'll be at that point. I still really like JJ/Connor. Does he ever show up again or does the team stick to going to the past?

Wentworth Miller is beautiful, but I'm still annoyed by his inflections as Snart.

That side plot about Ray/Kendra/Jax is still lame with Martin as the best part of it.

Too bad Oliver doesn't know about Grant Wilson in the present. I wonder what his reaction would be to the reveal of Joe Wilson being a villain. Oh my God, Slade, another one? How much more are out there so we can book them accomodation with ARGUS?

[WindofChange]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It is still absolute crap when it comes to rules of time travel and the occasional plot point or continuity but somehow I mind a whole lot less on LoT than I do on Arrow or The Flash.   

When you watch a show that doesn't really take itself seriously nor is rarely serious, you tend to feel this way. This is exactly why in the first two seasons of Flash everyone was so forgiving with plot holes, bad episodes, etc. They were forgiving because it was light and funny. Then The Flash got darker and heavier and that's when it started getting criticized.

It's the same thing with Arrow. It's serious therefore it's more open to criticism. People are just less forgiving about serious shows and said characters in them. 

Another example is Iris interrupting that funeral and was incredibly rude in the process. She wasn't criticized for her actions because the flash tried to make that moment funny but Felicity would've been crucified if she did that on Arrow. 

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 LoT is different and hasn't had all the same challenges of Arrow, but it's ability to handle character development and its ensemble cast remains impressive in my opinion.

No one is questioning this though. They're questioning the unfair comparison between Arrow and LoT. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by WindofChange

[apinknightmare]

I imagine it probably helps that LoT was conceived as an ensemble show, whereas Arrow morphed into one. 

[Sakura12]

Who was comparing LoT and Arrow? They are different shows. All that was said is LoT is better at handling it's characters, including the villains. And that is true, it's also better at that then Flash and Supergirl.  Then it was brought up that LoT didn't have to deal with what Arrow did. But that still doesn't change the fact that LoT is better at managing it's characters. I even noticed that in the crossover that when LoT's episode started immediately the characters started working together better and started acting like a team. The LoT writers knows how to mix and match characters and make it fun and interesting. 

LoT is probably the most comic booky show out of all of them since they are able to have characters crossover from different comics/shows and interact with the team in a fun creative way. They do have the advantage of not having to follow any comic book story since they are basically a new one.  

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Who was comparing LoT and Arrow? They are different shows. All that was said is LoT is better at handling it's characters, including the villains.

LOL, that is comparing them.

[Sakura12]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

LOL, that is comparing them.

LoT is better at handling it's characters than most shows. Black Lighting has only had a few episodes, but so far they are handling their characters well. I wouldn't consider that comparing everything about the other shows that we need to bring up everything that makes one show have to deal with more than the other. Arrow had trouble dealing with their characters before LoT even started. The complaints about Sara were all over the place when she was on Season 2. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT is better at handling it's characters than most shows. 

Cool. 

The original comment that triggered the discussion was "I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow." Which is, you know, a comparison.

[lemotomato]

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Who was comparing LoT and Arrow?

I believe people have been responding to this post:

11 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow.

[Sakura12]

Oh, I missed that post. With that I would just respond Phil Klemmer is the reason. 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Oh, I missed that post. With that I would just respond Phil Klemmer is the reason. 

That's fine. And other people think there are other reasons, thus, the subsequent discussion.

[tv echo]

Mr. Terrific (as depicted on Arrow) would not be in my top 5 - off the top of my head, I would put Black Lightning on this list way ahead of Mr. Terrific...

5 Best TV And Film Adaptations Of Superheroes Of Colour
Hannah Parker  On Feb 12, 2018
https://culturedvultures.com/five-best-tv-film-adaptions-superheroes-colour/

Quote

MISTER TERRIFIC (ARROW AND DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW)
...
Let’s put this out there straight away so we can move on from it – he’s a bit annoying. He tried to be a superhero but he quite frankly just isn’t that good at fighting. But that doesn’t stop him, and that’s why he makes this list. However much people try to deter him from crime-fighting on the streets, he refuses to give up. On top of that, he’s gay. Which makes him one of the only characters representing gay men of colour on TV right now. Echo Kellum is the man who was set the task of playing this tech wizard, and most of the time, it’s a character you not only think is awesome, but really want to be friends with.

VALKYRIE (THOR: RAGNAROK)
LUKE CAGE (LUKE CAGE AND THE DEFENDERS ON NETFLIX)
FALCON (MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE)
STORM (X-MEN FILM SERIES)
MISTER TERRIFIC (ARROW AND DC’S LEGENDS OF TOMORROW)

Edited February 13, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

TV Pilot Season 2018: Meet the Overachievers
FEBRUARY 12, 2018 6:15am PT by Lesley Goldberg
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/tv-pilot-season-2018-meet-overachievers-1083254

Quote

While overall orders are on par with those of last year (74 versus 74 in 2017), it has been a big season for prolific developers like perennial favorites Greg Berlanti and Aaron Kaplan as the five broadcast networks continued to spread the wealth among established producers and a few rising stars.
*  *  *
Greg Berlanti (Four)
Warner Bros. Television-based Berlanti already holds the record for the most scripted series currently in production at the same time (11) and could add to that with ABC multicam Most Likely To, CBS dramas God Friended Me and The CW's Spencer, the latter of which is being produced by his husband, Robbie Rogers. For the sake of comparison, Berlanti had the same number of pilots picked up last season (with The CW's Black Lightning and ABC's Deception moving forward).

Edited February 13, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

[quarks]

29 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

 Arrow had trouble dealing with their characters before LoT even started. The complaints about Sara were all over the place when she was on Season 2. 

Arrow struggled with this in the first five episodes, no question - remember how slimy Tommy was in the pilot, versus how he was portrayed later in the season? 

But between episodes 115 - 209, Arrow had no problems dealing with their characters with the exception of Laurel - where the problem was with the initial concept. Legends of Tomorrow was able to jettison the Hawks at about that stage (episode 13). Arrow, for whatever reason, had to hang on to Laurel.

Post episode 209 - after Arrow, like Legends of Tomorrow, had found its footing - Arrow had to change its fundamental structure, something none of the other superhero shows have had to do so far.  And naturally, the characters have struggled as well. It's not just the gap between an IT girl getting data off a laptop with bullet holes versus an IT girl helping to design a flying robot suit - though that's big - but the huge gap between a traumatized vigilante targeting the 1% and struggling to figure out the most effective way to help out the disadvantaged, and a guy zipping around shooting arrows at aliens and metahumans.

With Sara in particular - fans in general liked the character/character concept when she was first introduced, barring some complaints from comic fans horrified that any version of Black Canary would be introduced as a trained assassin and someone who had knowingly agreed to experiment on humans (something both Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow have mostly dropped) and a few complaints about Caity Lotz's acting (something that has improved considerably since her initial introduction, though it also helps that the LoT directors typically keep Caity Lotz moving, which is something Arrow's directors didn't always do.) The problem came later, after Sara joined Team Arrow - and after Arrow had been forced to change its initial concept. Season 2B didn't just include Sara on Team Arrow; it also featured Team Arrow going after a superpowered villain, instead of trying to solve mysteries and fight corporate/civil corruption.  A reformed assassin is the sort of person you want going after a superpowered villain, but that wasn't the plot that Arrow fans originally signed on for. 

And it didn't help that after a season and a half of everyone yelling at Oliver and Oliver continuing to feel that he had to make up for his past misdeeds, everyone, including Laurel, was more willing to forgive Sara - because the show now needed to focus on the superpowered villain, not the more nuanced questions of hey, who is really the villain here that Arrow asked between episodes 105-209, a shift that did Sara no favors at the time.

[Velocity23]

[Sakura12]

Speaking of characters, I never thought I'd be shipping Ray with anyone but I'm loving him and Zari. 

[Cleanqueen]

11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Speaking of characters, I never thought I'd be shipping Ray with anyone but I'm loving him and Zari. 

same, they're opposites and they totally attract.

[tennisgurl]

I like Ray and Zari too, and I could totally get behind them as a couple. They're quite different from each other, but not so different that it doesn't seem that they would fit together. They have fun banter, and some solid chemistry as well. 

[statsgirl]

Zari is grounded and a cynic which is what an off-the-walls optimist character like Ray needs.  It's why he really started to work on Arrow not when  he was paired with Felicity but when they started playing him off Grumpy Cat Oliver.

[Starfish35]

Yeah I like Ray and Zari too.  Their differences are fun.  She's a cynic and he's an optimist.  He tends to like to follow the rules - she likes to see how to get around them.  He's a health nut, and she'll eat any junk food she can get her hands on.  

[tennisgurl]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Zari is grounded and a cynic which is what an off-the-walls optimist character like Ray needs.  It's why he really started to work on Arrow not when  he was paired with Felicity but when they started playing him off Grumpy Cat Oliver.

Thats what I like about them so much, they balance each other out. Ray needs someone to ground him, and Zari needs someone to help her see the bright side of things. But, you can tell that they like each others differences, especially with Zari, who you can tell has grown found of Rays peppy optimism, even if she thinks its annoying sometimes. 

[JJ928]

I totally forgot about LOT returning last night so I just watched. I  like Ray/Zari, but I still ship Sara/Ray too lol.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Yeah I like Ray and Zari too.  Their differences are fun.  She's a cynic and he's an optimist.  He tends to like to follow the rules - she likes to see how to get around them.  He's a health nut, and she'll eat any junk food she can get her hands on.  

1

I get the feeling it's Brandon Routh coming through on that and while most of the time Ray's health nut obsession amuses me, I wanted to smack him for freaking out on one hot chocolate for the kid that just got sprung from the mental asylum and was periodically possessed by some uber demon...but it's the sugar that's going to kill her?  I was very happy for Zari to shut that down but wish she'd been maybe a tad less diplomatic about it.  

3 hours ago, JJ928 said:

I totally forgot about LOT returning last night so I just watched. I  like Ray/Zari, but I still ship Sara/Ray too lol.

I liked the idea of Sara and Ray originally because of the same reasons that Ray and Zari work, the contrasts in personality soften and help each other but after three years, I've given up that either Sara or Ray are interested in each other that way. 

At least I still have my Sara/Rip ship to amuse me.  And who knows, maybe Ava will grow a personality before the end of the season.  Yeah, I'm not that hopeful either.  Still, there could be worse pairings.  I don't hate Ava, just find her really dull.  

[Mellowyellow]

I still love that he wrote letters to get the FDA to ban junk food. 

Hehe such a goody goody. 

So Ray and Zari are happening????

[Sakura12]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

At least I still have my Sara/Rip ship to amuse me.  And who knows, maybe Ava will grow a personality before the end of the season.  Yeah, I'm not that hopeful either.  Still, there could be worse pairings.  I don't hate Ava, just find her really dull.  

Since Ava's on her second personality, maybe the third one will work for me. 

So Ray and Zari are happening????

Not so far, they were just together all last episode and I thought they worked well. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Sakura12

[Trini]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

Hmm -- do they not have Supergirl also?

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

Hmm -- do they not have Supergirl also?

I assume it's on hiatus til LoT finishes it's run this year.  

[Wishing Well]

I’m not into Avalance :(. A few of my friends are watching LOT now because of the WLW but...NYSSA ?

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I get the feeling it's Brandon Routh coming through on that

I've had the same feeling. :) 

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Since Ava's on her second personality, maybe the third one will work for me. 

Lol. :)

[JJ928]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

At least I still have my Sara/Rip ship to amuse me.  And who knows, maybe Ava will grow a personality before the end of the season.  Yeah, I'm not that hopeful either.  Still, there could be worse pairings.  I don't hate Ava, just find her really dull.  

I do NOT like Ava at all. The show may be trying to make her more bearable by making her slightly nicer, and softening her hair & makeup, but it's still a NO for me. I'll stick to my CanaryAtom crack ship lol.

[statsgirl]

I don't like Ava but I've become resigned to Avalance happening.  I'll just keep thinking of Sara with other people.  At least it's not going to make me stop watching like Karamel was going to.

[Starfish35]

Yeah resigned is a good word.  :( I'm not thrilled about how it's being handled but it's not a deal breaker.  

Oddly enough, I've recently started coming around on the idea of Sara and Ray.  I don't think there's any basis for it in the show now, and I like what's going on with Ray and Zari, but...I've been playing around with the idea in my head, and I could see an angle where I could enjoy a Sara/Ray ship.  

I think when the show started, Raylicity was still fairly fresh in my mind, and I wasn't totally sold on Ray himself yet.  And there was a general expectation (at least here) that the show would pair them up.  And it was just at that point a hard no for me.  But now.....I think if the show put in some effort to develop a deeper friendship between them, I could buy a slow friends growing into love scenario.  That's entirely hypothetical though, since I don't think the show is interested in going there.  Avalance seems to be the order of the day, and I like what's going on with Ray and Zari right now. 

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, I dont really like Ava or Avalance right now, even though I thought Ava was better in the Beebo episode. I wish we could have had more of Ava softening towards Sara and the Legends before she got "I am love interest" stamped on her forehead. Shes fine, and I know a lot of people on the internet (including some people who are just super excited about a W/W ship) are into them, so more power to them, but I dont really care either way. I doubt it will kill the show for me or anything, or even really hinder my enjoyment, but its not something I am super interested in right now. 

[Oreo2234]

I think Sara has a very platonic chemistry with Ray (as well as Nate). I like their dynamic and I think trying to go for a romance would ruin the friendship. I can see Ray and Zari though, before Zari I thought they should just give up trying trying to give Ray a romance.

I liked Ava a lot more in the Beebo episode but I never really disliked her much because I knew they would change her attitude.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Oreo2234

[Delphi]

 Is Curtis still gay?  They haven't mentioned that like,  at all.   I don't count representation when I can't see it.  He's basically a terrible vigilante whose partner divorced him, I'll give him a vigilante of colour medal though. 

[KenyaJ]

7 hours ago, Delphi said:

 Is Curtis still gay?  They haven't mentioned that like,  at all.  

Yeah, he was talking to Rene about all the guys he was(n't) dating at Oliver and Felicity's wedding reception.

[Starfish35]

This is funny. :)  Legends of Tomorrow Cast Is 'Stayin' Alive' in Disco Dance Video — WATCH

Black Lightning down opposite Olympics and without an original Flash lead-in.  Source: (Now updated with final numbers).  It was also the only scripted original airing last night.

And unrounded preliminary and half-hour numbers from RJK at SpottedRatings.com:

Quote

Black Lightning .................. 0.538 ... (0.543 ... 0.533)

Edited February 14, 2018 by Starfish35
Updating with unrounded and final numbers

[Velocity23]

[Starfish35]

Well that's.....unexpected. 

[Morrigan2575]

Well, that certainly explains the 9 pilots this year. Also means a lot of their shows will get renewed 

[Starfish35]

Here's the Variety article:

Quote

When the CW launched in 2006, it did so with a Sunday programming lineup. But the night proved to be a tough field to compete in for the then-fledgling network, born from the combination of the WB and UPN. In 2008, the network struck a deal with Media Rights Capital, essentially leasing over a five-hour Sunday-night block to the independent producer. That scheme failed, and in 2009 the CW gave Sunday evening back to its affiliates.

Since that time, the television landscape has changed dramatically. Under Pedowitz, who joined in 2011, the CW has shifted its programming strategy, moving from an audience makeup that skewed hard female to a near-even gender balance, and increasing its median age to aid affiliates leading into their evening-news broadcasts. It has also pursued a digital strategy that emphasizes its own platforms, CWTV.com, an ad-supported platform where it stacks recent episodes of its original programs, and CW Seed, a digital venue for short-form content.

The CW has become a money maker for its parent companies through their deals with Netflix to stream past seasons of shows produced for the network. The current Netflix deals are set to expire in a year and a half. The Sunday expansion gives the CW more shelf space for original series, an indicator that the parent companies have found that producing shows to air on the network then live on via streaming distribution in subsequent years has been profitable.

Pedowitz said that discussions with the parent companies about expanding began in earnest in July, and approval came in December.

“I think everyone is pleased,” Pedowitz said. “This move is a win-win-win for the CW, for our affiliates, and for our owners.”

For affiliates, the prospects of seeing the CW program primetime on Sundays — giving it 12 hours of original programming per week, up from 10 — is now far more attractive than it was a decade ago. In recent seasons, the network, which draws smaller audiences than the Big Four and skews significantly younger, has countered broadcast trends, showing ratings stability and even flashes of growth. In Nielsen live-plus-seven numbers, the network is currently averaging 1.8 million primetime viewers (up 3% from last season) a 0.5 rating in the 18-34 demo and a 0.6 rating in the 18-49 demo (both even). It has found critical and commercial success with female-skewing dramedies such as “Jane the Virgin” and “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”; superhero action dramas such as “Flash” and “Arrow”; and new series “Riverdale” and “Black Lightning.”

“I heard a lot of feedback saying that it gave [affiliates] something to talk to the MVPDs about to try to up their retrans fees,” Chris Brooks, executive vice president of network distribution, said of  the expansion, which he worked with affiliates to secure clearance for. “It gave them something to sell on Sunday nights outside of syndication. It was really well received.”

The move back into Sundays, which will go into effect in the fall, has prompted an uptick in development. The network has ordered eight pilots for 2018-19 — in addition to a planted pilot for a likely “Supernatural” spinoff — after ordering six last season and greenlighting four to series.

The CW plans to air 15 original scripted shows this season. Pedowitz said that the network plans to air as many as 20 next season.

[Morrigan2575]

I had to Google to find the 15th show. Who knew there was another mid season show coming in march (Life Sentence).

Well, I never doubted all DC shows would get renewed. I think this means zombie and The 100 are pretty solid renews. SPN goes without saying.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I ahd to Google to find the 15th show. Who knew there was another mid season show coming in march (Life Sentence)

Yeah Dynasty's getting kicked over to Fridays and Life Sentence is taking its place.

[Starfish35]

I wonder whether the renewal announcements will come now; whether they were waiting to announce this first.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

I wonder whether the renewal announcements will come now; whether they were waiting to announce this first.

yeah, I expect renewals will follow shortly, at least for the obvious shows 

[tv echo]

Matt's Inside Line: Scoop on Once, H50, Legends, Sabrina, Chicago Fire, Legion, SEAL Team, The Middle and More
By Matt Webb Mitovich / February 13 2018, 7:55 AM PST
http://tvline.com/2018/02/13/once-upon-a-time-spoilers-cancelled-final-season-lgbt-romance-alice-robin/

Quote

Any idea when we’ll see Thunder suit up on Black Lightning? —Michele C.
Actually, you will see Anissa (played by Nafessa Williams) suit up this Tuesday night — though her first instinct about what to wear quickly proves to be, um, battle un-ready. What she then gets properly fitted for, thanks to a super-helpful boutique clerk (and colorful latex), is pretty fabulous for a “beta” costume. And that’s not even counting what she does with her hair….
*  *  *
Is that “human” Gideon in the new Legends of Tomorrow photos? What brings her back? —Sal
Previewing next Monday’s episode of the CW series, Amy Louise Pemberton aka Gideon says, “[It] is very much about Zari and her learning her place within the team, and Gideon’s basically manifested herself to help her figure out where she fits in the team.” As for how the team’s newest member takes to meeting the ship’s AI face to “face,” Tala Ashe said, “Given the context of [it], I think she will initially be quite pissed off…. The way that Gideon enters Zari’s world is perplexing and makes her pretty mad at first!”

Edited February 14, 2018 by tv echo

[Lady Calypso]

It does make me relieved with The CW expanding to Sundays. I was worried with all these new pilots that some of my favourite shows would have to get cancelled in order to fit them in. The schedule this year with shows has already been somewhat messed up (a LOT of shows starting really late), so opening Sundays up will help. 

My thought was that they might cut down a lot of shows to 13 episodes and only have four or five shows get a full 22 episode order. Not that only having 13-18 episodes is a bad thing, though. I'd rather have a tighter season with a better story arc than a show trying to fill episodes to get to 22. Some shows would even benefit from shorter seasons (Supernatural, for example). But opening Sundays up will definitely help with the network wanting to add on more shows and with their superhero universe expanding. 

[tv echo]

Written by someone who clearly didn't watch Arrow for years...

Single on Valentine’s Day? These TV characters will make you feel better about it
by Sandy Perez  1 week ago
https://hiddenremote.com/2018/02/01/valentines-day-tv-worst-relationships/

Quote

Finding yourself single this Valentine’s Day? It’s better to be alone than in bad company! Here are over 10 TV characters who prove being in a relationship is overrated.
*  *  *
Everyone in the CW’s Arrowverse
Being with a superhero initially sounds like a no-brainer, but why would you want to be with someone who could die any day, as horrible as that sounds. Not to mention, take Oliver Queen, for example, he lied and lied to Felicity for years. Heroes, you just can’t trust them. And let’s never forget that Barry Allen’s flashpoint changed everyone’s lives.

Edited February 14, 2018 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

For years? Really? I somehow don't remember years and years of lies.

[calliope1975]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

For years? Really? I somehow don't remember years and years of lies.

I loathed the BMD story line, and it was still, like, a couple months of lies. I have no idea what this person is talking about.