Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Starfish35]

....ok.  I didn't see that coming.  I wonder why they would do that?  And that's really odd scheduling.

[catrox14]

Wait, so they aren't going to put SG behind Legends? That's so weird!

[jay741982]

53 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I thought it would on after Supergirl, not replacing it. What's on after Legends on Monday? 

I'm thinking Lucy Hale's new Show Life Sentence 

[Starfish35]

That's a really strange pairing (Legends / Life Sentence).  A show about time traveling superheroes and what looks like a rom com.  

[Proteus]

I'm just glad Legends isn't bleeding into summer. That'd have been horrible.

[Velocity23]

30 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Possibly, but I still think a delay in Supergirl's production schedule makes more sense as a reason for them  to pull such a weird move like this. And that's the only thing that could explain it, isn't it?

Then the same should have happened to the Flash.  Its basically a decision by Pedowitz i would think who said at the Summer Critics Press Tour that only 4 superhero shows will air at the same time. So with BL starting in January the decision was made between LOT and Supergirl.

[JJ928]

43 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Oh, wait! This may have to do with Kreisberg's firing and Berlanti needing to come back in and work with the writing staff. The production and writers on SG need more time, probably and that's causing delays.

Funny, I figured that The Flash would be the one more affected, but that doesn't look to be the case. Supposedly Berlanti was going to come back to both, but maybe he's choosing Flash first (his fave) and that's why Supergirl is getting delayed?

Don’t both shows already have 2 executive producers beside AK? I would imagine they already have the entire season planned out at this point. Either way, this feels like a terrible move for the show.

 

that said, I don’t watch SG and am happy LOT won’t be delayed too much.

Edited December 8, 2017 by JJ928

[Lady Calypso]

Just in forewarning that I'm totally guessing on a theory based off of little evidence, but I think the decision to take off Supergirl for two months and replace it with Legends has to do with them needing to bring back four midseason shows at some point? Maybe I'm wrong, but since The CW typically doesn't air any summer shows, which means most of their shows end by June, they needed to take Supergirl off a lot longer than intended. Plus, with Dynasty's unexpected 22 season pickup, that leaves one less spot in the spring schedule. 

I assume Life Sentence may get the Mondays at 9pm slot. It might pair ok with Legends, and then Supergirl when that comes back. That means they need to find a slot for The 100, iZombie, and The Originals. Two will likely go on Fridays (The Originals for sure, and maybe iZombie), which leaves one more to be fit into the schedule at some point. 

My best guess is the network was trying to find a way to not have Supergirl off for that long, but Dynasty likely screwed that up. If Dynasty was just for 10/13 episodes, Supergirl might have gotten to either take a shorter hiatus or not been replaced by Legends at all. 

But it sucks, because that means Supergirl is going to be halted in the likely middle of an arc and then come back in two months. They've probably had to add in some major cliffhanger as well. 

If I'm right (and I'm only guessing), I'm wondering why they didn't keep Legends off for longer and resumed that in April instead of taking Supergirl off. So I guess maybe the Kreisberg firing could be a more likely reason.

[Primal Slayer]

Ugh what the hell? To me it would make more sense holding off on Legends then it would Supergirl but I think this really has to do with TheCW trying out something new and having original programming during summer. If this is a success you can bet this will lead to CW-DC shows airing during summer.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Possibly, but I still think a delay in Supergirl's production schedule makes more sense as a reason for them  to pull such a weird move like this. And that's the only thing that could explain it, isn't it?

I'm going to bold this for emphasis, since this is the second time this has been brought up:

IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT AK'S DEPARTURE WILL LEAD TO ANY PRODUCTION DELAYS FOR SUPERGIRL OR FLASH.

1. All three of these shows received a full season order, which means there's no extension option on the contracts.  (Legends of Tomorrow is a bit different here, since that show did not receive a full season order, so there may be some more flexibility there, though some of the other issues I'm about to mention will come up.)

2. That means that the last filming days on these contracts are the last filming days. Can these dates be extended? Well, in emergencies, sure, but this will cost money. 

3. It's not just the actors here; other contracted employees (that is, people with specific end dates) include directors, stunt actors, set dressers, painters, coordinators carpenters, and more. Historically, most of these guys have contracted other work when not specifically contracted to the Arrowverse shows - yeah, Ken Hawryliw has stuck around as the Arrow props master for six solid years, but he's unusual. The others pop in for a few episodes and then pop out again.  The biggest problem would be presumably be the directors - TV directors tend to be booked months in advance, and tend to have relatively full schedules. Delaying the production of an episode by a week means losing that director. 

4. As of November, when AK was suspended/terminated, Supergirl and Flash would have had their location shots booked through at least February. Any production delays would mean not being able to film at those locations, and thus losing the deposits/rental fees on those locations.

This sort of thing is why production delays are costly, which in turn is why U.S. television productions tend to stagger on when a showrunner has to depart for whatever reason.  Berlanti Productions is presumably already looking at having to make some major payouts over the AK situation; there's no need to add more costs to this - especially since all three shows have other showrunners, producers, and writers.

The more likely scenario?  The CW purchased two midseason replacements - Black Lightning and Life Sentence - and also have new episodes of The 100 and iZombie waiting. But they are only cancelling one show, Valor, and most of their fall shows got full season orders. So their schedule is a bit jammed. 

[statsgirl]

Last night I went to a taping of a New Year's Eve sketch comedy show, and in one of the sketches, a character says "But I like Marvel" and the other replies "This is a DC movie.  It's dark and joyless".

(I'm a terrible audience member for a show taping because I rarely laugh out loud. But that was funny.)

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I think the second new character will end up being Ava.  They're already setting it up, with her saying the Time Bureau is in disarray since Rip's arrest and Darhk's resurrection.  And she disobeyed orders this last episode to come back and save Sara.  I think it's only a matter of time before she comes over for good, possibly bringing Rip with her.

I really hope it's not Ava.  She doesn't bring anything to the team that Sara doesn't.  They're both tough women, leaders, WASP and no super skills or magic suits.  Up to now everyone on the Waverider has had at least one  unique ability or demographic, most more than one.

I don't want a Sara/Ava romance but I'm more willing to put up with that if she's not on the Waverider.  The long hair falling over her shoulder is just such a stupid look for someone whose job it is saving time rather than trying to win a Miss Sexpot contest.

[Oreo2234]

Ken@pursuit23, the paparazzi guy who spoiled a lot of crossover stuff, claims that this Supergirl/Legends time slot stuff has to do with AK's firing. I don't know how reliable he is about this kind of stuff. At least it might give the writers time to rework some plots. Hopefully someone decides to nix the Alex adopts Ruby storyline they seem to be working towards. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Oreo2234

[WindofChange]

49 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

Ken@pursuit23, the paparazzi guy who spoiled a lot of crossover stuff, claims that this Supergirl/Legends time slot stuff has to do with AK's firing. I don't know how reliable he is about this kind of stuff. At least it might give the writers time to rework some plots. Hopefully someone decides to nix the Alex adopts Ruby storyline they seem to be working towards. 

I trust Ken when it comes to spoiling whatever's going on in the episodes, I won't trust him at all about anything that's happening BTS in the CW offices in LA... So I'd take what he says with a massive grain of salt. He may know what's happening in Vancouver, but he most likely doesn't know what's happening in LA and is relying on a lot of "I heard from someone who heard from someone"s

Edited December 9, 2017 by WindofChange

[Primal Slayer]

He doesn't even seem that sure

And he also said that filming wouldn't be halted so I dont see it being AK. Some show would have to take a hit due to all of these shows.

[Oreo2234]

If its not related to AK then I don't understand why Supergirl was chosen to take the hit. It's ratings were actually steady after the losses it suffered last year and now they are giving it a schedule that will almost guarantee decreased ratings. Why not move Arrow, isn't it supposed to be close to the end of its run anyways?

Edited December 9, 2017 by Oreo2234

[Morrigan2575]

13 minutes ago, Oreo2234 said:

If its not related to AK then I don't understand why Supergirl was chosen to take the hit. It's ratings were actually steady after the losses it suffered last year and now they are giving it a schedule that will almost guarantee decreased ratings. Why not move Arrow, isn't it supposed to be close to the end of its run anyways?

Maybe because there's less episodes of LoT? 

[tofutan]

Wait, so Torvey says we'll get more Ray/Leo, but Leo won't be in the cartoon? So what script made him almost cry? The crossover or will he come and pick Leo up in 11 or something?

 

And our best guess for the Valor replacement is Life Sentence, correct? 

Edited December 9, 2017 by tofutan

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Oreo2234 said:

If its not related to AK then I don't understand why Supergirl was chosen to take the hit. It's ratings were actually steady after the losses it suffered last year and now they are giving it a schedule that will almost guarantee decreased ratings. Why not move Arrow, isn't it supposed to be close to the end of its run anyways?

I have no idea how long Arrow will run, but I suspect that Amazon.com sales rankings provide one clue to this: Arrow is outselling the other three Arrowverse shows, including Supergirl.  (I put up the info on the Ratings thread here; please note that Amazon typically adjusts those ratings according to real time sales on an hourly basis.)

[KirkB]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

QL barely remembers he has another daughter these days (see Wedding Watch)

To be fair to Quentin, the watch was a wedding present. Sara's not married, engaged, or even actively dating anyone right now. Plus it would be a little odd for him to call her on her time ship and ask her to come back for he can give her his dad's old watch.

[Velocity23]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I have no idea how long Arrow will run, but I suspect that Amazon.com sales rankings provide one clue to this: Arrow is outselling the other three Arrowverse shows, including Supergirl.  (I put up the info on the Ratings thread here; please note that Amazon typically adjusts those ratings according to real time sales on an hourly basis.)

I was going according to Itunes most popular TV shows of 2017 (top 50 TV shows featured) and it only lists 3 CW shows:

- Flash

-Riverdale

-Arrow

[tv echo]

[bijoux]

Tell me if NaziBarry dies on Freedom Fighters.

[NumberCruncher]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

I have no idea how long Arrow will run, but I suspect that Amazon.com sales rankings provide one clue to this: Arrow is outselling the other three Arrowverse shows, including Supergirl.  (I put up the info on the Ratings thread here; please note that Amazon typically adjusts those ratings according to real time sales on an hourly basis.)

This is why I will never understand the arguments over ratings between the various Arrowverse shows as an indication of which couples/characters/shows are "most popular".  Ratings vs. sales are dependent on a variety of factors. A show with lower real-time ratings can end up with higher DVD sales where the inverse may be true for another.  All of the Arrowverse shows target their own specific niche and clearly viewers have different priorities when it comes to viewing habits, time constraints, disposable income, etc., so the infighting is useless.  That said, while I do think the sales of Arrow are likely having an impact as to why it has lasted six seasons, I wish the network would consider ending it next season as the show has always had a huge problem of recycling/repeating old storylines.  To me, that's a indication that your arc is played out and you need to plan an exit strategy.  I strongly suspect that's why Arrow ratings have been declining faster than the norm as well.  I know personally I've been fairly bored the past few seasons and only skim the episodes out of loyalty and love of specific characters.

Guggenheim & Co. have always said they planned a 5-year show to coincide with Oliver's backstory arc, and even at that, it felt as though they sometimes had to stretch out the plot to fit that timeline at the sacrifice of quality.  When it became clear that the network had no intention of canceling Arrow, I think the showrunners didn't really know where to go next so they hurriedly introduced a bunch of new characters that nobody really warmed to in an attempt to continue the gravy train.  While I don't think most general viewers hate the newbies as much as many people here do, I do think they are a lot more disposable in terms of audience loyalty so focusing on them so much (especially last season when the ratings really started their slide) hasn't really done the show many favors in retaining viewers when the stories are weak.

Edited December 9, 2017 by NumberCruncher

[tv echo]

The ensemble group on LoT works because it's mostly composed of likeable characters that we're familiar with and have invested time in - like Sara, Ray, Stein, Jax, Snart, Rory. Then they introduced new characters who are likeable (Amaya, Nick) and mesh well with the old group - and there's just good overall cast chemistry. Even Mick is obnoxious in a likeable way.

In contrast, Arrow has gotten rid of Team Arrow members that we liked (Thea, Roy Harper) and forced onto the team new characters who get mixed reactions as to likeability (Rene - sometimes likeable but often obnoxious in a bad way, Dinah - mostly likeable but sometimes hypocritical, Curtis - used to be likeable but now often annoying). The most likeable new character, Ragman, was dropped. Moreover, the new characters just don't mesh well with the old characters, and there's not good overall cast chemistry.

Edited December 9, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Tell me if NaziBarry dies on Freedom Fighters.

I've watched the first 6 episodes of Freedom Fighters: The Ray (each episode is either 6 or 8 minutes long) - you can watch them here...
http://www.cwseed.com/shows/freedom-fighters-the-ray/episode-one/?play=25836258-32cb-49ac-aef2-06cfb2dce2dd

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Dark Flash (NaziBarry) does not die in the first 6 episodes, which is more of an origin story for Earth-1's The Ray and ends in a cliffhanger.

-- Ep. 1: On Earth-X, The Ray and other superheroes (I have no idea who they are - Phantom Lady? Black Condor? etc.) fight the New Reichsmen and then fight Dark Arrow, Overgirl and Dark Flash.

-- Ep. 2: The Ray and other superheroes continue to fight Dark Arrow, Overgirl and Dark Flash. One superhero (Red Tornado?) is an android and is disabled ("dies"), but gives his cortex to The Ray, who fights off Dark Arrow's attempt to take the cortex. The Ray is injured but is saved by Vibe, who opens a breach to Earth-1, shoves The Ray through it, while Vibe stays behind on Earth-X.

-- Ep. 3: In Oklahoma on Earth-1, at a "Tulsa Fair Housing" office, a Muslim woman tells Ray Terrill, who works there as a public interest lawyer, that she was evicted without notice or reason by her landlord. We then see Ray practicing his speech about treating everyone fairly regardless of gender, race, etc., in the break room. But when he tries to give the speech to the board(?), they tell him that they're shutting down his department. Then we see Ray having drinks with a co-worker and talking about how he still hasn't come out to his parents. We then see Ray having dinner with his parents. After dinner, Ray is in his back yard when the portal opens and Earth-X's The Ray falls through. The Ray gives the cortex to Ray, his helmet disappears revealing that he looks identical to Ray, and then The Ray turns into this big yellow light that explodes. Then Earth-1's Ray's body glows yellow.

-- Ep. 4: Ray tells his friend about what happened. The cortex suddenly emits this hologram of the android (Red Tornado?), who explains about Earth-X and the Resistance, and then tells Ray that he must "destroy the cortex and save the world." Ray suddenly starts glowing yellow and his clothes transform into The Ray costume and helmet. He also has The Ray's powers. Cut to Earth-X, where Dark Flash and Dark Arrow give a status report to Overgirl, who tells them to prepare their forces for a final strike to eliminate the rest of the Resistance.

-- Ep. 5: Back on Earth-1, Ray as The Ray is trying out his new powers and showing off for his friend, while delaying doing anything about helping the Resistance on Earth-X. Cut to STAR Labs, where Caitlin(?) tells Cisco that she picked up a "resonance burst" indicating that someone crossed over from an alternate earth into Tulsa, Oklahoma. Cut back to Tulsa, where Ray picks up a guy in a bar. When they go walking through a park, they stumble across a bad guy robbing two women. Ray transforms into The Ray and rescues the women from the mugger.

-- Ep. 6: Ray as The Ray stops some bank robbers and then leaves before the police arrive. Cut to Earth-X, where Vibe is trying to find his Ray. Then Overgirl, Dark Arrow and Dark Flash arrive to capture him. Vibe fights Dark Flash and is defeated and tied up. The bad guys check Vibe's computer and find out that The Ray went to Earth-1. Cut to Earth-1, where Ray is on the phone with his new boyfriend, when he's shot with a dart and rendered unconscious. When he wakes up, he sees two hazy figures standing over him. The end.

Edited December 9, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Moreover, the new characters just don't mesh well with the old characters, and there's not good overall cast chemistry.

I think a big reason this has been a problem is they don't allow the newbs to mesh and interact with everyone.  Curtis is Felicity's and Dinah belongs to Diggle when it comes to scenes.  Rene has Quentin.  They needed to have Diggle bond with Curtis and Felicity with Dinah.  I still don't give a damn about Rene so I'm not going to worry about him. 

But what I'm saying is it's pretty clear WHY we don't really deeply care about them.  They are isolated with either one original member and then themselves.  They haven't even tried to make us care about them outside of a singilar connection on the team.  

[Miss Dee]

Thanks @tv echo! I'd love to see these for myself - the CW seed should work in Canada, right?

[tv echo]

I guess I just assumed that anyone could go online to that cwseed.com link and watch the eps for free, but I really don't know how it works in other countries (outside the U.S.).

Edited December 9, 2017 by tv echo

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think a big reason this has been a problem is they don't allow the newbs to mesh and interact with everyone.  Curtis is Felicity's and Dinah belongs to Diggle when it comes to scenes.  Rene has Quentin.  They needed to have Diggle bond with Curtis and Felicity with Dinah.  I still don't give a damn about Rene so I'm not going to worry about him. 

But what I'm saying is it's pretty clear WHY we don't really deeply care about them.  They are isolated with either one original member and then themselves.  They haven't even tried to make us care about them outside of a singilar connection on the team.  

Yeah I'll never get that.How do they expect fans to invest in a team dynamic when that basically doesn't exist and there are characters who have barely shared scenes or had no alone scenes at all.

Edited December 9, 2017 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

Just finished Freedom Fighters and while it wasn't bad it suffered from the usual: way to short and it told a very incomplete story for it's first season.

Interesting that Cisco's E-X counterpart is literally the same, they took what appeared to be zero liberties there.

[thegirlsleuth]

They started Season 5 with OTA and all the newbies (pre-Dinah)  all working together and interacting, but I have to say that didn't work either, at least for me.  I still didn't care about the newbies, and there were a lot of situations in which there were too many people trying to talk.  This was especially true for Renee. I think by the second half of the season they realized they needed to fill out some of the secondary characters and began giving them smaller scenes with each other.

One think I've noticed is that Oliver and Curtis really don't click.  I know we've talking about how sometimes Amell has anti-chemistry with people romantically, but I think he also has anti-chemistry with Curtis.  I have no reason to believe there is any personal dislike behind it, but there's something about when they talk to each other, with different energy levels and dynamics, that almost makes them seem like they are reading the scene completely differently.  I'm not explaining this clearly, but the rhythm of their scenes is always off and Amell pulls out his blank face more often.

I watched Freedom Fights, and was left with the same feeling like I did with Vixen, where I wanted it to be about five times as long.

[leopardprint]

7 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

One think I've noticed is that Oliver and Curtis really don't click.  I know we've talking about how sometimes Amell has anti-chemistry with people romantically, but I think he also has anti-chemistry with Curtis.  I have no reason to believe there is any personal dislike behind it, but there's something about when they talk to each other, with different energy levels and dynamics, that almost makes them seem like they are reading the scene completely differently.  I'm not explaining this clearly, but the rhythm of their scenes is always off and Amell pulls out his blank face more often.

There's a very distinct "these are my friends/family and these are my coworkers I tolerate" line.  I'm going to have a hard time buying Oliver caring that they are gone. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by leopardprint

[tv echo]

Marc Guggenheim on The Ray's Potential Arrowverse Return
By CHARLIE RIDGELY - December 8, 2017
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/08/ray-arrowverse-return-crisis-on-earth-x-marc-guggenheim/

Quote

During an exclusive interview, we asked the producer if we'd ever have a chance to see The Ray again.

"Well, the Earth X-Ray, no. The Earth 1 Ray, who you met in the crossover, absolutely," Guggenheim confirmed. "The only two things that we need to see The Ray in live action again are a great story and Russell's availability. We get those two things and you'll absolutely see him again. We certainly would hope to."

That hope for Tovey's return all hinges on his fate with another series. As of now, the actor has a main role on ABC's Quantico, which is currently heading into its third season.

"The incredibly talented Mr. Tovey is busy as a series regular on Quantico at the moment," Guggenheim explained. "So, I hate it when actors display an inability to be in two places at once."
*  *  *
Hopefully the schedules will get resolved, and The Ray will find himself back on The CW very soon. In the meantime, Tovey is voicing the character in the animated series Freedom Fighters: The Ray. The first six episodes of the The Ray are currently streaming on CW Seed.

Edited December 9, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Marc Guggenheim participated in two panels at ACE Comic Con in Long Island today...

Tune In: DCTV Panel | 2018 ACE Comic Con Long Island
December 9, 2017, by ACE Universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxQkulXPg_o 

-- Freedom Fighters: The Ray: MG explained that, with four (and now five) superhero shows on The CW, the suggestion was made to do an animated superhero. So they first did two seasons with Vixen. Then, when the network wanted more, they pitched The Ray, which is now streaming online. MG said that Melissa Benoist is voicing Overgirl, that "Echo Kellum is back as Mr. Terrific," that "Carlos Valdes is back as Cisco," and that "Megalyn E.K. is reprising her role as Vixen."

-- Arrow: MG mentioned using the Billy Joel concert footage ("No Man's Land" song) in their Thanksgiving episode. When the mod asked about his wish list of comics characters that he'd like to use, MG: "I've made no secret of the fact that one day I would love to see The Question on Arrow. I think the Question is just tailor-made for Arrow. I've always felt that."

-- When mod asked about learning from past missteps and taking corrective actions, MG: "During the first season of Arrow, like when we were very first doing this, and the learning curve was so steep, we learned - we learned a few things. We learned, you know, don't, um - maybe this is too inside baseball an answer, but - we had all these characters and all these actors, and we made this point of, like, every single character has to be in every single episode, whether they belong there or not... Like a roll call... It was like, oh, got to name check Lance, got to get Laurel in there, got to get Tommy in there. And one of the things we realized was, it kind of did a disservice to the individual episodes because we were just servicing, you know, actor contracts, as opposed to really servicing the story. So one of the big things we did in Arrow, Season 2, and we sort of - this is applied to across all the shows - is, we're just telling the best story we can. And if a character appears, they appear. If they're in one scene, great. If they're in no scenes, fine... It's 23 -episode seasons, years. Make each episode its own special thing and tell the story that needs to be told. I think, as a result, we actually ended up not only just doing better episodes and avoiding character moments that, quite frankly, were forced or wedged in, it elevated the quality of the series overall. So that's one thing. We learned a lot of things production-wise in terms of, like, how do we pull this off? Like, you know, we learned what to do practically and what to do with CG." He then said that last year, for the Invasion crossover, they originally planned to do the aliens practically with prosthetics, but then changed to CG aliens. Mod followed up on MG's comment about realizing that they didn't have to use every actor in every episode after Season 1 of Arrow and noted that Seasons 2 & 3 of Arrow seemed "to have more air in it" and was "more actorly." 

-- When fan asked how the writing has changed with what the actors bring to their characters, MG: "Great question. Uh, I would say, when you first start out, you're writing - you're writing the characters. You're hearing a voice in our head that's really just the character. But then, over time, the voice you start to hear in your head is the voice of the actor. And you start writing - sometimes it's very conscious and sometimes it's very unconscious - but you start writing towards their strengths and away from their weaknesses. Um, but what's tricky, I will say, is - and it's a good challenge... like, let's take Arrow as an example. We've been doing this for six years. There are - you know, we've evolved as writers, but Stephen has also evolved as an actor. So there are things we write for him now that we never would've written for him in Season 1, um, you know, just because in Season 1 - like, humor. Stephen has developed a real, great gift for delivering, like, uh - his timing, his delivery, his deadpan-ness. And I think he would tell you, like, we weren't writing that stuff for him in Season 1. I don't think he would've been comfortable playing it in Season 1. So, like, it's a symbiotic relationship where every day we're getting dailies and we're seeing what they're doing, and that's influencing our writing, and our writing is pushing them in different directions. And you go back and forth and back and forth."

-- When fan asked how much the Arrow costume is worth, MG: "I would say, the Arrow costume, it costs us about $5,000 to make. So every time we need to do, like, a new costume - like, sometimes they get damaged doing stunts. Sometimes, you know, like, Season 4, you know, we created a brand new costume. It costs about $5,000. And, of course, Maya's going to see this and she's going to text me, you know, 'it's actually more than that.'  Um, but I think it's around 5 grand."

-- MG commented that he was online reading reviews of how Arrow's mid-season finale ended and how reviewers were saying, we all know it's going to be temporary, so big deal.  MG said, "How do you know it's going to be temporary? I don't think we're using the word 'temporary' the same way."

-- LoT: MG mentioned John Constantine's "surprise appearance" in the just-aired mid-season finale and said that he will be back for the mid-season premiere (310). MG: "I would watch the Sara Lance-John Constantine show, like, any day of the week. Those two guys are so great together. Um, and that's a real joy." MG also mentioned LoT's move to Supergirl's time slot on Mondays. When fan asked about the rules of time travel on LoT and if there's a logic behind it, MG joked: "Clearly not."

-- When fan asked if Katana (who debuted on Arrow) could appear on LoT, MG said that they "talk about that all the time, actually." He also said that Keto Shimizu, who wrote a lot of the Katana episodes of S3 of Arrow, is now a Co-EP on LoT and loves the Katana character. MG said that it always depends on two things: if there's the right story and if the actor is available, because they try to avoid re-casting.

-- When fan asked if Kid Flash was going to be replacing Firestorm on LoT, MG said that he couldn't say who was replacing Firestorm and that they'll probably make that announcement "in the New Year." MG: "I will say, it's not a brand new character. It's a character sort of from - plucked from somewhere in the Arrowverse. A character you've seen before. So, stay tuned."

-- Supergirl: When fan asked if Superman was going to return to Supergirl, MG said that he doesn't work on Supergirl and that that question was "above his pay grade" anyway. Another fan asked whether Supergirl will ever move to Earth-1 permanently. MG said that it was "totally possible" but that it was "up to the Supergirl folks." 

-- Flash: When fan asked if Reverse Flash was going to return to be a villain, MG said that he didn't know because he doesn't work on The Flash, so he doesn't know their plans. He only knows is that Tom Cavanagh "loves playing that character."

-- When fan asked whether we'll see any Titans characters on an Arrowverse show or any Arrowverse characters on the new Titans show, MG said it was "again above my pay grade," but "never say never."

-- When fan asked if Booster Gold or Blue Beetle will ever be introduced, MG said "never say never." He then added that both those characters are characters that they've talked about, that Ray Palmer was originally supposed to be Ted Kord, and that there's nothing he could "announce or speak to at the moment."

Walk the Line: The Anti-Heroes | 2018 ACE Comic Con Long Island
December 9, 2017, by ACE Universe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfvCnutYuJs 

-- MG mentioned Freedom Fighters: The Ray and how Melissa Benoist, Carlos Valdes and Echo Kellum were going to provide voices for that animated series.

-- When asked about anti-heroes, MG said that Oliver Queen was an anti-hero "for sure". The other panelists seemed to disagree. MG: "He's obviously over the course of the show - he's had this, you know, very complex relationship with killing. You know, one year he's killing, the next year he's not killing. One year he has that moral code, the next year he doesn't. And, you know, hopefully, if we've done our job as writers - and twitter will probably disagree with me on this... we've tried to make those ups and downs motivated by what's going on with him in his overarching emotional journey." MG added: "I think Oliver is fundamentally a hero. He is always trying to do good... His heart is always in the right place... I always say, the franchise of the show is Oliver making mistakes... This year on Arrow, you know, because of the first five years, we've been trying to have his mistakes be from a more informed, self-aware, mature place. You know, he's making different kinds of mistakes. Yeah, he's a very flawed character. The moment Oliver gets all his stuff together, that's probably when the show ends." MG then said that other anti-heroes are Slade Wilson, Mick Rory, Helena Bertinelli, Sara Lance and Nyssa al Ghul.

-- When asked if he had any advice for budding artists and writers in terms of getting into the mindsets of these anti-hero characters, MG: "My big thing is, write from a place of truth and try very hard not to make that your own truth. Like, recognize that there are different points of view out there... There's a wide swath of humanity and there's a lot of different ways different people respond to situations. And, um, try to locate what those responses are and write from an honest place about them... I think there are some people who are legitimately terrible people. Like, who are legitimately bad... This is real life... And I think it's really important that, especially now, we call them out on it... Everyone has their demons, but, you know, there are some people who, you know, let those demons consume them and become their justification for doing terrible things. And then there's all the rest of us who are all getting over our demons and, uh, manage not to do terrible things. And I think we need to call out the people who do the terrible things."

Edited December 10, 2017 by tv echo

[Mary0360]

52 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

There's a very distinct "these are my friends/family and these are my coworkers I tolerate line." I'm going to have a hard time buying Oliver caring that they are gone. 

That's definitely the same sense I get from Oliver to. I think it's going to be a part of the story that's addressed in the next part of the season since both Curtis and Dinah had lines that implied Oliver treats them differently then he treats Felicity and Diggle. 

 

That was was one thing I really didn't get about Dinah's jab at the newbies being spied on and not Felicity and Diggle. Did she really think that Oliver's wife was going to turn him in? His brother from another mother who is sharing the Green Arrow identity was going to turn him in? Diggle and Felicity are different. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

-- When asked about anti-heroes, MG said that Oliver Queen was an anti-hero "for sure".

Yep; not my thing.

6 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Just finished Freedom Fighters and while it wasn't bad it suffered from the usual: way to short and it told a very incomplete story for it's first season.

Interesting that Cisco's E-X counterpart is literally the same, they took what appeared to be zero liberties there.

Is there a forum for this yet?

[WindofChange]

I don't mind MG saying Oliver was an Anti-Hero... At least he as well as the audience acknowledge Oliver's faults and shortcomings.

What I find more dangerous is The Flash glorifying Barry Allen and calling him a Superhero while not properly addressing his own shortcomings. From what I've seen, Barry is an anti-hero too as he lacks integrity, honesty, honor, and selflessness. But I suppose these are ugly realities that The Flash doesn't want to explore because it's supposed to be a kid's show.

Edited December 10, 2017 by WindofChange

[Midnight Lullaby]

I like anti heroes better tbh. I get bored when the main character is “too perfect” while I find a darker story more intriguing.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, Mary0360 said:

Did she really think that Oliver's wife was going to turn him in?

I just loved reading this :)

[Trini]

36 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

What I find more dangerous is The Flash glorifying Barry Allen and calling him a Superhero while not properly addressing his own shortcomings. From what I've seen, Barry is an anti-hero too as he lacks integrity, honesty, honor, and selflessness. But I suppose these are ugly realities that The Flash doesn't want to explore because it's supposed to be a kid's show.

I don't think this is true at all.

[Miss Dee]

Guggenheim: "I think there are some people who are legitimately terrible people. Like, who are legitimately bad... This is real life... And I think it's really important that, especially now, we call the out on it... Everyone has their demons, but, you know, there are some people who, you know, let those demons consume them and become their justification for doing terrible things. And then there's all the rest of us who are all getting over our demons and, uh, manage not to do terrible things. And I think we need to call out the people who do the terrible things."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm definitely reading shades of Kreisberg in this part of his statement.

[Starfish35]

@tv echo, do you remember anything about a quote from MG saying they'd been trying to work something out about getting Mari McCabe on Legends this season, but so far it hadn't worked out? I could have sworn that was on TVLine, like in their Ask Ausiello or Matt's Inside Line columns, but I've been looking, and I can't find it there.  So I thought maybe it was something that had been posted here in this thread from another site and I'm just misremembering it.

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

@tv echo, do you remember anything about a quote from MG saying they'd been trying to work something out about getting Mari McCabe on Legends this season, but so far it hadn't worked out? I could have sworn that was on TVLine, like in their Ask Ausiello or Matt's Inside Line columns, but I've been looking, and I can't find it there.  So I thought maybe it was something that had been posted here in this thread from another site and I'm just misremembering it.

He mentioned it here:

Quote

Will Mari appear on Legends of Tomorrow this season? — Kellee
“Unfortunately, no movement at the moment, but we remain hopeful,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim says of the Arrowverse’s original Vixen, a.k.a. Amaya’s other granddaughter Mari McCabe (Megalyn E.K.). EP Phil Klemmer adds: “But you might meet her boyfriend.” (FYI: That’s just a possibility at the moment, as the Legends bosses are still breaking that episode.)

[Primal Slayer]

Im really surprised that Mgalyn just doesnt seem interested in exploring Vixen outside of the animated series. This verse seems to have so many wrenches constantly thrown in that end up disrupting some storyline that they attempt to tell.

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Is there a forum for this yet?

Nope. But if they do give it one, they might as well just merge it with Vixen's since these don't get that much traffic.

[Starfish35]

52 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

He mentioned it here:

Yes!  That's what I was thinking of - thank you!

[Primal Slayer]

As I have started playing Telltales Batman S2, I have to say that the writers behind it really show a good way of taking these iconic characters and doing completely new things with them that also somehow remain true to the characters while keeping you enticed to see where they are going to take them. The Arrowverse/Berlanti/CW needs to hire this team or take a note out of their book. Would also love them to tackle a telltale version of Arrow.

[TwistedandBored]

If I haven't mention this here before, I want to take the opportunity to mention it now. Legends of Tomorrow is the most funniest show of the Arrowverse. I can't believe how much I have started to love this show.

After I watched last Tuesday's episode. I told my sister to start watched it since she likes quirky shows. She knows all the characters since she watched the first 3 and half seasons of Arrow and first two seasons of Flash. I was explaining main plots of last 3 season without giving away spoilers. The expressions on her face had me laughing so hard. Honestly, I should explain what this show is about to more people just for those reactions alone. 

[KenyaJ]

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm definitely reading shades of Kreisberg in this part of his statement.

All I got was Trump, LOL. 

9 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

One think I've noticed is that Oliver and Curtis really don't click.  I know we've talking about how sometimes Amell has anti-chemistry with people romantically, but I think he also has anti-chemistry with Curtis.  I have no reason to believe there is any personal dislike behind it, but there's something about when they talk to each other, with different energy levels and dynamics, that almost makes them seem like they are reading the scene completely differently.  

I think it's because Oliver is so dry and deadpan and Curtis is so stream-of-consciousness in his delivery. I always felt like the show was intentionally making fun of how different they are, like Oliver is always wondering what planet Curtis is from.

[statsgirl]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

The ensemble group on LoT works because it's mostly composed of likeable characters that we're familiar with and have invested time in - like Sara, Ray, Stein, Jax, Snart, Rory. Then they introduced new characters who are likeable (Amaya, Nick) and mesh well with the old group - and there's just good overall cast chemistry. Even Mick is obnoxious in a likeable way.

In contrast, Arrow has gotten rid of Team Arrow members that we liked (Thea, Roy Harper) and forced onto the team new characters who get mixed reactions as to likeability (Rene - sometimes likeable but often obnoxious in a bad way, Dinah - mostly likeable but sometimes hypocritical, Curtis - used to be likeable but now often annoying). The most likeable new character, Ragman, was dropped. Moreover, the new characters just don't mesh well with the old characters, and there's not good overall cast chemistry.

I think a big reason this has been a problem is they don't allow the newbs to mesh and interact with everyone.  Curtis is Felicity's and Dinah belongs to Diggle when it comes to scenes.  Rene has Quentin.  They needed to have Diggle bond with Curtis and Felicity with Dinah.  I still don't give a damn about Rene so I'm not going to worry about him. 

But what I'm saying is it's pretty clear WHY we don't really deeply care about them.  They are isolated with either one original member and then themselves.  They haven't even tried to make us care about them outside of a singilar connection on the team.  

I suspect another part of the problem is that the new characters are chosen not for who they are as characters themselves but because they come out of the comic books.  Definitely Dinah/BC, who I suspect displaced Thea/Artemis on the team permanently.  Curtis was fun when he was Curtis but as soon as he became Mr. Terrific, he started a downhill path. And Rene/Wild Dog got the lowest approval rating of all the newbies but didn't they want to ditch him, maybe because DC was trying to set up a comic book line.  Arrow's success in launching characters and shows is really its curse.

In contrast, now in s3 LoT can pick characters for how they fit into the existing group (as opposed to s1 when they were stuck with the Hawks) and it flows more naturally.

4 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I like anti heroes better tbh. I get bored when the main character is “too perfect” while I find a darker story more intriguing.

Same here.  One of the things that I like about Arrow is the inner conflict of the characters, not just Oliver but Diggle and Felicity and it's what made Moira so intriguing.  When Felicity has to fight against her fears and she succeeds in conquering them, it's so much more compelling to me than a hero who is flawed but the show refuses to address it and acts as if he is truly heroic.  (I'm getting deja vue, I just wrote something similar on the General Hospital threads.)

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

I think it's because Oliver is so dry and deadpan and Curtis is so stream-of-consciousness in his delivery. I always felt like the show was intentionally making fun of how different they are, like Oliver is always wondering what planet Curtis is from.

That worked really well with Ray at the end of s3.  But it's not working with Curtis. Maybe it's because Echo's portrayal is so over-over-the-top with Oliver. He needs to dial it back to the levels he is at when he's with Rene.

Edited December 10, 2017 by statsgirl

[tofutan]

So Ken on twitter claims: 

Is that a standard contract thing? Could he in theory block them from using the characters he created like Alex and Diggle if he was feeling petty?