Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

I haven' been on twitter yet but I'm guessing every major entertainment site will be talking about it, that's hype. And they would take 3-4 million viewers over 120k [random number] tweets. 

In a better world, they'd be featured on it but them pissing off OTA fans isn't going to diminish that buzz or heavily influence it for that many people. 

If Olicity OTA don't bring buzz why do comic book sites continually write click bait articles about them? Cause they can stop any day now.

[SmallScreenDiva]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think it'll ultimately matter, but it is stupid to just not put them in there to get everyone hyped up. No point in pissing off the group that is arguably most vocal about promoting your show online unless you have to - or unless you're Chico, I guess.

Exactly. These crossovers will get the ratings because a lot of viewers are interested when it comes to these "special" events but pissing off a pretty vocal part of your fanbase? Well, I guess it's not like they haven't done it before. Six years of getting told my faves don't matter and I'm still the idiot who watches the show. Oh well.

[LeighAn]

8 minutes ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

Diggle and Felicity left off the promo poster AND Diggle's officiating the Barry/Iris wedding? Nope. 

It so ridiculous. Barry erased his daughter and Diggle barely gives a crap about Barry or Iris, they are barely friends. 

[Guest]

Is Earth X where they're Nazis?

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Is Earth X where they're Nazis?

Yes

[tarotx]

I worry we won't get anything official about Diggle, Felicity, and Thea or showing them alive until the Arrow Premiere. And this cover was probably commissioned a while back. The Arrow promotion is going to suck big time until the premiere >.<  Fan Twitter did have a quick fix to add Felicity and Diggle. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yes

Welp. More reasons not to watch. Cool. 

[Primal Slayer]

14 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

If Olicity OTA don't bring buzz why do comic book sites continually write click bait articles about them? Cause they can stop any day now.

I never stated that they don't. I said this creates enough buzz on its own.

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, tarotx said:

I worry we won't get anything official about Diggle, Felicity, and Thea or showing them alive until the Arrow Premiere. And this cover was probably commissioned a while back. The Arrow promotion is going to suck big time until the premiere >.<  Fan Twitter did have a quick fix to add Felicity and Diggle. 

This could only be made better if they had Felicity or Diggle take Barry's spot on the line up.

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Welp. More reasons not to watch. Cool. 

I know..I don't get the fascination with making the good guys Nazis..I remember the mess with captain America..just stop.

[LolaRuns]

11 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

You said you criticized the promos for the season but apparently you have a problem with people criticizing the poster. If the network has different priorities and you think it's a compelling argument to not criticize the poster than you shouldn't criticize the promos applying the same logic. If you don't apply the same rules to yourself I don't see how you are in a position to apply your rules to others, sorry.

When I criticize I try to view it from perspectives other than just my own preferences. 

When people say they are stupid or wrong about it because buzz, I try to see some logic in it because I don't think that people are mean spirited by nature. The crossover is to a large part about the Westallen wedding. We might not like that, but despite the fact that Barry might not be popular here, he still has the show with the best ratings and he has proven during the last big crossover that he can bring the ratings to other shows. I might not like it, but just looking at those numbers it makes sense to make them the heart of the crossover. 

Similarly, using the crossover to essentially crossover with Freedom Fighters probably makes less sense from a business point of view, but it appears that the creator is really into that whole CW Seed thing and wants to make it a success. 

I don't have a problem with people not liking the poster, this is personal preference. But when people try to make it into a neutral statement like this is stupid I question this statement. Since something being neutrally stupid has a bigger requirement than just creating something I don't like personally. And even many things that turn out to be stupid in retrospect were at least following an internal logic when the decision was made. 

The promos of Arrows have no other purpose than to promote Arrow. If they are boring then they are bad at that job. If somebody could give me a good counter argument as to why that is not the case, I'd be absolutely be willing to listen. I looked at them under the assumption that for some reason being mysterious about the island survivors is a requirement and they could still cut more interesting promos while still keeping up the mystery about the islanders. 

The point of the crossover promo is to promote the crossover and just because the result does not fit out personal tastes doesn't mean that there isn't some traceable logic to it. I also suspect that the poster might be less than perfect, but less because of who is or isn't on it, but more because that retro style is not necessarily gonna appeal to that many people who would also be willing to watch the CW. Choosing a more modern style that fits with the CW look might have more sense. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, LolaRuns said:

When I criticize I try to view it from perspectives other than just my own preferences. 

When people say they are stupid or wrong about it because buzz, I try to see some logic in it because I don't think that people are mean spirited by nature. The crossover is to a large part about the Westallen wedding. We might not like that, but despite the fact that Barry might not be popular here, he still has the show with the best ratings and he has proven during the last big crossover that he can bring the ratings to other shows. I might not like it, but just looking at those numbers it makes sense to make them the heart of the crossover. 

Similarly, using the crossover to essentially crossover with Freedom Fighters probably makes less sense from a business point of view, but it appears that the creator is really into that whole CW Seed thing and wants to make it a success. 

I don't have a problem with people not liking the poster, this is personal preference. But when people try to make it into a neutral statement like this is stupid I question this statement. Since something being neutrally stupid has a bigger requirement than just creating something I don't like personally. And even many things that turn out to be stupid in retrospect were at least following an internal logic when the decision was made. 

The promos of Arrows have no other purpose than to promote Arrow. If they are boring then they are bad at that job. If somebody could give me a good counter argument as to why that is not the case, I'd be absolutely be willing to listen. I looked at them under the assumption that for some reason being mysterious about the island survivors is a requirement and they could still cut more interesting promos while still keeping up the mystery about the islanders. 

The point of the crossover promo is to promote the crossover and just because the result does not fit out personal tastes doesn't mean that there isn't some traceable logic to it. I also suspect that the poster might be less than perfect, but less because of who is or isn't on it, but more because that retro style is not necessarily gonna appeal to that many people who would also be willing to watch the CW. Choosing a more modern style that fits with the CW look might have more sense. 

If you want to understand my logic, that I explained at least twice already here you go:

Fact 1: Networks/EPs/show writers care about online buzz, proved by the fact that they ask for it for every single episode.

Fact 2: Felicity and Diggle are very popular online, proved by the fact that they trend a lot and you can't miss the replies to the official accounts that always mention them.

So, given the fact that they want buzz and those two characters bring it my conclusion is it would have been smart to use them too.

No one has ever denied Barry brings ratings. At best people said they don't care for him so would have liked the crossover to be about something else. None of this has anything to do with Felicity and Diggle and online buzz.

I didn't say that the poster doesn't follow its logic, I said that to create online buzz it would have been smart to also add two characters that get people to talk.

The promos for Arrow are boring to you. Some SA's fans for example want to see him and only him and are very happy to see him and his son.

The promos follow their own logic, like the poster follows its own logic. Obviously in both cases the network thinks they are doing the promotion right. You think the promos are boring and don't do their job to promote the show, I think the poster could have done a better job to promote the crossover. You are entitled to your opinion and should respect the rights of other people to have their own opinions as well. If you want to understand like you said good, if not, good. Either way I'm done.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

http://tvline.com/2017/09/22/the-flash-barry-iris-wedding-crossover-episode-photo/

 

I come home, and  Iris and Barry are at the center of the Crossover poster!

I said that they should do a team of villains, and they're doing it! Don't screw it up, Berlanti! Glad that Capt. Cold will get to be a part of this.

[raven]

Knock it off.  Several posts have been removed for being argumentative and repetitive as well as some political posts.  

This is also not the place to debate the network's promo policies.    It is the place to discuss your opinions, make your point but not to run in circles.

[Mellowyellow]

GOLDIE!!!!!!!!! Sorry I'm conditioned to react like this when I see a golden!

[Starfish35]

Some other thoughts:  

After a closer look, I can't find Ray/The Atom (as opposed to The Ray - this is going to get confusing) anywhere in the montage, although he's on the side.

Leaving aside the issue of whether Felicity/Diggle/Alex/Winn should be on the poster, I personally would have replaced Zari with Kid Flash.  Zari hasn't even been introduced yet, and since they're (understandably) not using her superhero name, it seems like most people who don't follow spoilers/news would have no idea who she is.

And while I'm very disappointed that it seems J'onn won't be included and we won't get to see Diggle's reaction to him, I just realized that apparently James isn't going to be included either.  Interesting - I figured they would include Guardian.  But then I thought they would include Martin Manhunter too so who knows? 

[Primal Slayer]

The Atom is flying towards Overgirls boob. Heatwave isn't in the big montage though.

I dont know why the overloaded the hero side but then the baddies (who look like robots) only have 4 peeps.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

Just now, Primal Slayer said:

The Atom is flying towards Overgirls boob.

Oh yeah, sure enough, there he is! Lol! 

[Trini]

1 minute ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont know why the overloaded the hero side but then the baddies (who look like robots) only have 4 peeps.

...Especially when the heroes are already represented along the perimeter....

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Heatwave isn't in the big montage though

I didn't notice that - good catch!

[Trini]

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

[Starfish35]

Amaya got it the worst I think - if it wasn't for her necklace I would not have recognized her.  

Question - does anyone know where these spoilers/rumors about Mon-El marrying Saturn Girl are coming from? 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

I'd say JH got screwed. and they made Killer Frost look way more like a vixen then she usually does lol.

I'm am cool with the art (seen A LOT worse) but majority don't really take that much likeness to the actors. 

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

Best: Firestorm

Worst: Iris, but really all of them but Iris is featured up front and you'd think they could do better. ( And CP deserves better.) 

[apinknightmare]

Oliver for sure got screwed over. He not only doesn't look like himself, he looks misshapen. 

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Question - does anyone know where these spoilers/rumors about Mon-El marrying Saturn Girl are coming from? 

I think from Ken Pursuit's twitter (although I'm not sure if he said they'd be married or if Mon-El was just returning with a SO).

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

Worst:Barry and Iris.

Best:Everybody else. 

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think from Ken Pursuit's twitter (although I'm not sure if he said they'd be married or if Mon-El was just returning with a SO).

From what I saw, he responded to someone guessing that Mon-El would be married to Shadow Lass by saying he could confirm that at least half of that was true.  But I don't know where Saturn Girl came into the picture.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Oliver for sure got screwed over. He not only doesn't look like himself, he looks misshapen. 

He kind of looks like a poor man's Adam Driver? 

Edited September 22, 2017 by leopardprint

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Worst:Barry and Iris.

Barry was unrecognizable. I'd be pissed if I was Grant

[JamieLynn832002]

18 minutes ago, Trini said:

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

I really don't see any winners here (maybe Wild Dog because it's his mask, not his face being destroyed.) For me the worst is Heat Wave because every time I scroll past I have to scroll back to see who the heck it's supposed to be.

[Delphi]

hmm,  I liked Barry,  but that may very well be because he looks more like a Doctor than Barry and I like my Doctors so much more than I like Barry. 

 

Also,  whichever one of you spent the afternoon slamming anti Felicity trolls,  I want you to know that you're my current favourite hero. 

And I just realized that the poster means that Thea won't be suiting up again,  which makes me sad. 

[Mellowyellow]

Heatwave, Firestorm and the top half of SG's face looks like the actors to me. I could recognise them.

Iris looks overly pink to me! They only reason I guessed it was her was bc of the WA wedding being talked about. 

[Primal Slayer]

I think its a pretty good likeness to Grant on the cover. 

[Mellowyellow]

3 hours ago, way2interested said:

I wonder if they'll compensate at least for Felicity by having an overplayed promo clip of her from the crossover like they did last year (sorry, Felicity, but I swear if I hear "best team-up ever" one more time...).

haha I know how you feel. I adore Felicity and can't get enough of her but OMG that clip! I never want to see that clip again! 

[statsgirl]

There's no Alex, J'onn,  Winn or James as well as no Felicity, Diggle or Thea. (I'd complain there's no Quentin or Joe but they're old so they don't count.)  But they have room for two pictures of all the costumes.   And of course all the newbies are there, even the one who hasn't been seen yet.

Quote

“We conceived this year’s crossover to be evocative of the annual Justice League/Justice Society crossovers we grew up with and looked forward to as kids,” executive producers Marc Guggenheim and Andrew Kreisberg said in a statement. “Phil was the perfect choice to bring the comic book cover iteration of this idea to life. You can count on one hand the number of artists who could compellingly represent so many characters in a single image. Phil is one of them. And his design invokes the cover of Justice League #207, which was the 20th Annual JLA/JSA crossover. Our ten-year-old selves are in heaven.“

I wish MG and AK would stop writing the cross-overs to their 10 year old selves.  I'm no longer 10 and I never was a boy which may be why I find the cross-overs the worst episodes of the season.

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I'd take Felicity and Diggle's faces showing up even if their names weren't listed instead of ignoring the fact that they exist. 

The stupid thing is that there is enough room on the poster for all the "A" characters.  There's no need to piss off a substantial part of your viewing audience.

5 hours ago, LolaRuns said:

Twitter does not represent the entire audience. Flash has like what, 2-3 million viewers? There's like 99 comments on that twitter post (compared to 400 likes and 140 retweets). Now all viewers of tv shows are as dedicated as the kind of people who would visit a forum on a tv show. 

Maybe because they wanted to go for a certain look and that look happened to be Mask focused? 

The look for the cross-overs is always Mask focused.  Maybe I've wrong but I think that there would be a few Flash viewers who would be upset if Iris was left off the poster entirely.

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

If Twitter influenced their ratings, I'd agree but it doesn't so TheCW will be happy regardless if this performs like past crossovers.

Twitter can be used as what is called a "proxy variable" in research. When you can't measure the object itself, you measure something that stands in for or parallels the variable.  Those who tweet about the Arrowverse may be only a part of the fandom but if 80% of twitterverse feels one way, chances are good that the same proportion in the fandom probably also feels the same way.  (In the pre-internet days, politicians and companies used to say that if one person writes in to complain about something, there are 5 - 10 people out there who feel the same way but can't be bothered to write.)

[Xander]

2 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

From what I saw, he responded to someone guessing that Mon-El would be married to Shadow Lass by saying he could confirm that at least half of that was true.  But I don't know where Saturn Girl came into the picture.

It's in another reply. He's like Saturn something. But another twitter account posted spoilers as well but I think they deactivated.

[MarkHB]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Opinion time: Who got the best likeness in the poster, and who got screwed over?

That is NOT Melissa B's chin.

True fact: many comic book artists went into that line of work because, while they could draw, they sucked at drawing likenesses. And, as for "who else could draw that many characters," I nominate George Perez.

[Xander]

They remind me of different people. Like Supergirl reminds me of Claire Danes, White Canary of Uma Thurman and Killer Frost a little of Kate Winslet. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I see a certain likeness in some if them, Barry, Cisco and Firestorm more than the rest..the others, Oliver and Iris in particular, look nothing like the actors that play them. If they showed me Iris without the context I'd never guess who it is. It isn't a particularly inspired drawing..

[Guest]

I can't see a likeness in any of them. Maybe the side profile of the main Barry in the middle but that's about it. Although if it's a homage to those old covers, maybe that's the point. IDK. Haha.

[tv echo]

DC's official announcement...

Breaking News: A Crisis of a Crossover
By Tim Beedle   September 22, 2017
http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/09/22/breaking-news-a-crisis-of-a-crossover?sf116092466=1

Quote

The CW and Warner Bros. Television announced today that this year’s crossover is entitled “Crisis on Earth-X,” a nod to the numerous “crisis” events held throughout the DC Universe since CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS introduced the concept of the Multiverse. To celebrate the announcement, artist Phil Jimenez, known for his work on WONDER WOMAN and SUPERWOMAN, was asked to create a custom comic book cover paying homage to DC’s longtime annual comic book crossovers.
*  *  *
Jimenez clearly took inspiration from those early crossovers as well. “Some of the first DC Comics I ever read were those insane crossovers with a dozen characters from alternate earths and dimensions—the kind of stuff I later became known for!” he revealed. “So when CW asked me to do an homage cover inspired by those amazing team up covers, I couldn't resist, the chance to draw all of The CW’s DC Super-Heroes in one crazy action sequence was insanely fun and exciting. And Romulo Fajardo'a colors brought everything to life!”

Edited September 23, 2017 by tv echo

[Miss Dee]

Poor guy. He's going to get savaged for that "all" comment.

Well I like it, even if they did include Captain Cold in the central fight but left Heatwave out of it.

[tv echo]

The presence of Zari on the Crisis poster comic book cover design is a bad sign for Felicity having much of a role in the crossover. Zari is a hacktivist from the future, who's described as "a computer nerd with a wry, combative attitude." (source)

I guess I'll hope for a Felicity and Zari scene, where Felicity will learn future computer stuff that she can then use to help Team Arrow on Arrow.

Edited September 23, 2017 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

Apart from the first crossover, nothing good has come out of subsequent crossovers for us.

S4 blew Olicity up, S5 was kinda boring and all I remember from it was the ghastly spinning camera work on the Arrow portion of it. And the one cute photo of Raylicity =P 

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

Poor guy. He's going to get savaged for that "all" comment.

Yeah, saying "all of The CW's DC Super-Heroes" just lets people say, "well, those not on there aren't heroes." Which is not true at all. 

5 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The presence of Zari on the Crisis poster comic book cover design is a bad sign for Felicity having much of a role in the crossover. Zari is a hacktivist from the future, who's described as "a computer nerd with a wry, combative attitude." (source)

I guess I'll hope for a Felicity and Zari scene, where Felicity will learn future computer stuff that she can then use to help Team Arrow on Arrow.

That's been my fear. Since they first announced the character of Zari, I've really wanted at least one scene between her and Felicity in the crossover, but now... Ugh. (I think I wouldn't feel like this if we didn't get Curtis having to help Felicity with stuff she would have done herself before he existed on Arrow last season.)

[tv echo]

5 Big Takeaways From the 2017 Arrowverse Crossover Poster
by Russ Burlingame | September 22, 2017
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/22/5-big-takeaways-from-the-2017-arrowverse-crossover-poster

Quote

Who's not there?

We'll start out easy, pointing out some of the obvious omissions from the poster.

John Diggle and Felicity Smoak are nowhere to be found; ditto Harrison Wells, Joe West, J'Onn J'Onzz, Alex Danvers, James Olsen, etc.

In all likelihood this is a matter of practicality: Jimenez wanted to homage Justice League of America #207, which featured the disembodied heads of various Justice League and Justice Society members reacting to a Nazi supervillain. That eliminates non-costumed folks (Wells, West, Alex, Felicity) from consideration and leaves open the question of why certain charcters were selected for inclusion rather than Guardian, Spartan, and Martian Manhunter.
*  *  *
All in all, the answer could be a number of things. It could, legitimately, be that those characters do not have a major role in the crossover for one reason or another, or it could be simply that they were omitted for space on the poster. One or more of them could plausibly have new costumes coming that the studio didn't want to spoil this far in advance of the start of the seasons in 3 weeks.

The non-spoilage answer could be used to explain Diggle's and Felicity's absence from the poster, except that the rest of Team Arrow are present, including Mr. Terrific, who had not previously been confirmed to have survived the explosion at the end of season 5.

Speedy was in the crossover last year, but fans noted that Willa Holland's season-regular contract only seemed to have her in 13 or so out of the 23 episodes, and so her absence here could indicate she died on Lian Yu, or it could just be that she's not in the crossover for practical reasons.
*  *  *
The villains

On the poster, our heroes are fighting Earth-X versions of themselves, with Nazi-inspired uniforms and strange masks on each hero.

Given the fact that all of them are wearing those masks, the absence of mind-reader J'Onn J'Onzz might indicate that these heroes are not inherently evil, but somehow controlled -- but that is probably a stretch considering that the trailer for The Ray featured the Earth-X versions of the characters without the masks.
*  *  *
Equally difficult to discern is who might be the guy facing off with Vixen at the bottom. is that the Earth-X version of Malcolm Merlyn? Prometheus? Or someone with ties to Vixen's past?

Who's not there?
Killer Frost
Captain Cold is Back
The Ray
The villains

Edited September 23, 2017 by tv echo

[Delphi]

Ugh,  this is going to be a mess of a crossover.  In both actual storylines and within the fandom. 

[way2interested]

6 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The presence of Zari on the Crisis poster comic book cover design is a bad sign for Felicity having much of a role in the crossover

If Felicity being in CW promotional stuff determines how much she's in the show/shows, Felicity would only have a fraction of the scenes she's ever had through the years, ?

[tv echo]

^^^ That's true. I guess I should've said, the presence of Zari in the crossover episodes is a bad sign for Felicity having much of a role.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think too many characters is a bad sign for most characters to have a significant role..