Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Sakura12]

My one issue with Caity Lotz is her tendency to purse her lips when Sara is out of sorts. I swear to God I started watching her scenes in S2 with a hand raised to cover her mouth. It actually helped, because I connected better with the character when I focused on her eyes. And it was present in this episode of LoT. I also saw her in the 70s episode where it wasn't present because Sara was relaxed and the pursing doesn't come out then.

 

CL has said she's aware that she does that. It's a habit she's trying to fix. She said when she's fighting she gets really into it and makes faces then too. I do like that she's watching herself and attempting to fix her issues. It's the only way you can learn and grow as an actor. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Sakura12

[Delphi]

I'm actually not bothered by the alleged character assassinations on LoT. The way I see it is that these characters were only semiformed on Arrow and Flash with the exception of Sara so they had to fill them all out a bit more. I feel like Stein's arrogance and Ray's need to be something more adds more to them as characters.

[Sakura12]

I think they wanted to give Stein more of an edge. I actually like that he's more than just an old Professor. We are seeing more of him then just seeing him every once in awhile. People usually are different than they act when you don't see them often. 

[tennisgurl]

I really like most of the characterization on LoT, and think they are mostly interesting. Of course, I adore Sara, and love how she is being written, so that helps a lot. And, as someone who hated Ray on Arrow, I actually really enjoy him here. They have gotten rid of the stalker/arrogant stuff, and spend more time on him as a lovable, idealistic doofus. It works a lot better. Plus, they do actually mention his dead fiance and how that affected him, and that does make him more sympathetic, even if the dead fiance thing is rather cliche. 

 

Also, many of the characters do have pretty massive personality flaws, but they usually get called out on them. I can appreciate that a lot. 

[nksarmi]

I love Stein.  First, the dynamic between him and Jax is more interesting than anything that tried with Robbie.  Grant it, I don't think they tried that much, but even thought Stein and Jax have been joined less - I feel like we know them more as characters.  And the kid's acting doesn't bother me at all.  But I always ask myself if it's the actor or the writing and I can't think of a scene where Jax didn't sell his lines or make me feel a disconnect between the actor and the screen.

 

I was not completely buying the romance between Cisco and Kendra, but outside of that and the Egypt flashbacks (which I do not like at all), Kendra is working for me.  She's probably my least favorite character (now that Carter is dead - if I don't count Savage), but that only speaks to how much I like the rest of the cast.

 

But anyway, back to Stein, sure, he's a bit manipulative and he definitely thinks he knows it all, but the man is supposed to be brilliant and that tends to lead to arrogance (Felicity is the exception, not the rule). On the other hand, he genuinely admitted that what he did to Jax was wrong and apologized and he and Jax are learning to work together - considering how different they are, it's kind of fun to see that develop.   

 

Plus, Stein is as hard on himself as he is on anyone else.  I like him.  And as others have said, one of the most refreshing things about Legends is that characters get called out for their crap.  And it's not all the same character needing the pep talk every week.  It's a nice balance. 

[nksarmi]

Stein should be in jail for what he did to Jax. But it probably does explain why he managed to get a decent woman to marry him.

 

Well he's in good company.  Even if we ignore just the regular run of the mill laws these people are breaking so we can exonerate people like Felicity, Cisco, and Diggle who are mostly on the side of the angels - Oliver has still done things that would put him pretty firmly in the "morally grey" category and earn him a few life sentences in any justice system. 

 

I'm fairly certain Barry has broken his share of laws and he's definitely in morally questionable territory as far as I'm concerned after his stunts on Earth 2 got Joe 2 killed.  Then of course, there's the whole being selfish enough to go back in time to save his mom, knowing it could cause some kind of time rip that would tear apart the city/world and doing it anyway.

 

Of course Legends is a show of "heroes and villains" so a character doing something "morally questionable" is kind of part of the billing.  Plus, in a universe where Oliver and Diggle save Malcolm (a mass murderer who also robbed a character of her free will, but instead of just kidnapping her - forced her to kill a friend) so Thea won't know the burden of being responsible for her pyscho, evil dad's death - it seems like if Jax can forgive Stein for what he did to him - perhaps we should all just go with it and give the good doctor a chance to redeem himself.  Because if he can't - I don't think any of the other characters can.

[Trini]

Why isn't all this Legends discussion in the Legends forum?

 

 

... No reason to use the Connor Hawke name if you aren't going to give us Connor Hawke.

 

Do the producers just really hate the character? They've done 'Connor Hawke--but not really' twice now. On Arrow, with Oliver's son who is not Connor; and on Legends with Connor who is not Oliver's son. I mean, they are clearly going out of their way not to do him, but yet still use his characteristics with other characters. Weird.

[Starfish35]

I totally believe that William was supposed to be Connor. But there was an outcry about him being whitewashed, since his mother was white. So TPTB backpedaled, and since they'd never actually said the mother's name onscreen, Sandra and Connor became Samantha and William.

I don't know what's up with the Connor Hawke on LoT though. I mean, it's cool that the next Green Arrow is Diggle's son, but "Connor Hawke" is a rather random name for him to have pulled out of thin air. I think it's just one of those things that the writers thought would be cool but there really isn't a good in-show explanation for it. What else is new, right?

Edited February 28, 2016 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

I can fan wonk the Connor Hawke name. Diggle and Lyla was thinking of a middle name for Jr since they wanted him to have a tinge of individuality. They settled on Connor because they would have a Sara and John Connor.  And Jr was into archery and liked Hawkeye (who can never be named so he can be called Hawk). 

[Genki]

I just finished 3 episodes of Legends to get to Starling City 2046, and really this was my favourite episode, because it was very Arrow. I wanted more even though it was only a possible future. Anything todo with VS bores me to tears. 

 

I like Sara a lot and I like Captain Cold, the rest....meh!

 

I totally believe that William was supposed to be Connor. But there was an outcry about him being whitewashed, since his mother was white. So TPTB backpedaled, and since they'd never actually said the mother's name onscreen, Sandra and Connor became Samantha and William.

 

This is why I'm annoy they still went through with the William storyline, because it did absolutely nothing for Arrow.

[arjumand]

So I watched the thing. Too bad somebody didn't put that final scene in the lair on Youtube so I didn't have to. Oliver teaming up with Diggle: Next Generation was sweet. As was the copy that. Awww. The kid must have picked it up while Dig and Lyla were settling who would do the dishes and take out the trash.

 

Seeing it in higher resolution, did they cake on the old man make up or what? That looked more 80+ than 60. I hope Sara tells Oliver to invest in some face creams once she gets back to the present day.

 

I know you guys have been saying that the young part of Firestorm is bad, but man, having seen him now, he is SO, SOOO bad. I do not even know what the whole thing about snooping around a woman who's just lost her freaky soulmate or whatever and the unknown to her, retirement age son was about. I guess it's because Sara's the only other woman on board and she was busy. Ray was actually perfectly fine until Stein meddled. Stein should go stand in the corner.

 

 

Oh, Old Man Makeup Oliver was terrible, really really terrible. He's taken first place in terrible old age makeup in my opinion (used to be Guy Pearce in Prometheus). Then, the fact that he looked about 120 made his jump'n fight later on look even more bizarre - I started questioning if he was actually faking the aging - like, just before we left 2046, Connor would have said: "Could you wipe that crap off your face? It looks goofy."  "But, but, my suffering! I'm OLD." "Goofy." "Fine!" Oliver sulkily grumps his way into a corner and starts peeling off the prosthetics / wiping off the make-up. As a final touch, he pulls off the fake beard.

 

On an equally shallow note - so, nu!Green Arrow, Old Man Make-up Green Arrow, and, for that matter, the Green Arrow action figure on Arrow - all their costumes have sleeves. Just sayin'.

 

#newcostumesucks  #ynosleeves #bringbackthesleeves #andshirtlessoliver

[KirkB]

Everyone: Oliver, your suit needs sleeves!

 

Oliver: But, my arms! Look at my arms! They're beautiful!

 

Malcolm pops up out of nowhere, bites him on the arm, and disappears.

 

Oliver: Sleeves it is.

[wonderwall]

This is adorable... I ship Sara/Rip too T_T

 

 

http://thecaptainmarvel.co.vu/post/140038407840/a-summary-of-their-relationship

[spaulding]

I am loving Sara on LOT.  She is the MVP of the team. 

 

I dread the end of S1.  I have no idea if she'll be back for S2 or if a new team will be created.  I don't watch Arrow, so I don't want her back there. 

 

I watched one episode of Arrow, Haunted, for John Constantine.  One episode was all that was needed for me to realize that I can't stand the Laurel character.  It really is all about her, isn't it?  I don't want to watch any Sara/Laurel scenes.

 

Being on LOT, Sara doesn't need any interaction with Laurel even if they are sisters.  Sara stands on her own and has chemistry with everybody.  Let her build new relationships with others.

[foreverevolving]

I think it is safe to say that if any character is coming back next season on LoT it's gonna be Sara! (possibly Ray too and Snart - Maybe i'll get my AtomCold ship after all :-P.. one can hope)

[kismet]

I can't help but wonder depending upon the shooting schedule for "Prison Break", if Snart & Mick will be left behind in another timeline (probably willingly after last weeks episode) to accommodate them being off the show for a certain amount of time. And then when their availability is open again the team will have a rescue mission to get them back from wherever they left them.

[tarotx]

I think Prison break will be shot when LOT is finished for the season. And it's being filmed in Vancouver so I don't see them leaving LOT for the show. I mean unless they just don't want to do LOT any more.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/15/prison-break-event-series-fox

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2016/02/prison-break-revival-season-vancouver/

[Velocity23]

Prison Break starts filming in March/April. LOT ends filming on april 1st.

[Guest]

If they renew LoT for a second season it's possible they might keep it a short season with it airing in January. That means time for the actors to film other things.

[AyChihuahua]

I want LoT to do well now, bc while I love Sara, I want her to stay there and not come back to Arrow, except for an occasional visit. Heck, if they get rid of Ray next year (BR is prob a big drain on the budget, but RP's still not popular) and get rid of Hawklady and VS, I may even watch.

[Lady Calypso]

I want LoT to do well now, bc while I love Sara, I want her to stay there and not come back to Arrow, except for an occasional visit. Heck, if they get rid of Ray next year (BR is prob a big drain on the budget, but RP's still not popular) and get rid of Hawklady and VS, I may even watch.

For LoT to get a second season, they're going to have to kill VS for me to watch it. Everyone else is debatable (leave Carter dead, especially, as it gets Kendra more scenes with others and Carter's a whiny ass) but VS drags the show down. He's not even a good villain, just an annoying one. He's like a fly that you keep trying to swat away but it keeps coming back. Oooh, or like a cockroach. It just won't die. 

 

Surprisingly, Ray's not a bad character on the show. He's certainly better than he was on Arrow/The Flash. They've embraced his selfish need to do things for himself and for the fame, rather than for the good of others. But it surprisingly has made him a really good character, because shows don't often embrace the hero who does things for his own selfish reasons. But if they have to get rid of him, I'd be sad (he actually has excellent scenes with Stein and with Mick/Snart) but it would probably be for the best. 

 

Personally, I think the only characters they need to keep for a second season are Sara, Rip, Stein and Snart. I'd be fine if they kept Mick, Jax, and Kendra, but they aren't necessary. I guess Stein/Jax are kind of a forced package deal because of the whole Firestorm thing, but Snart could give or take his partner. 

[Starfish35]

Vandal Savage is a one season story. That was made clear up front, before the season even started. If they get renewed, next season will have a different story.

[nksarmi]

I like Ray on LoT and I'd love more of him and Snart together if we did lose Mick.  I want an additional woman on LoT if it gets a second season.  I know we only saw her once, but I think Vixen would fit in well.

[FurryFury]

I'd love for them to get Constantine, personally, but I'm not sure he'd fit a more sci-fi setting. 

 

Vixen is very likely at this point, I'd say. Kendra seems to be quite unpopular.

[Starfish35]

I prefer the show stay closer to sci-fI than magic-oriented, personally. I know comics have always had a mix of the two, but I'm not crazy about the magic side. This goes for Marvel as well, actually. I'm not really interested in any of the more magic-oriented movies coming up in the MCU.

*shrug* Each to their own of course. It's not an absolute no-go, but it's not really my thing.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[nksarmi]

I'd love for them to get Constantine, personally, but I'm not sure he'd fit a more sci-fi setting. 

 

Vixen is very likely at this point, I'd say. Kendra seems to be quite unpopular.

 

I'd love Constantine for an episode but probably not as part of Rip's team.  If we want someone magic related, I'd love to see Zatanna, but since they have an actress already for Vixen and she's been introduced to the audience - she seems like a good transition. Dr. Light from Flash would also be good, but I'm not sure they will give up the actress who play her if they have plans for Linda down the line.

 

Oh and I haven't given up on Kendra - I love Hawkgirl in the Justice League cartoons I've watched with my kids.  I'd love to see her become the kickass warrior she should be.  But I do not want them to bring Carter/Hawkman back as a regular - I think Kendra has potential outside of him.

Edited March 1, 2016 by nksarmi

[statsgirl]

On Agent Carter, Jarvis just did a Felicity and hit someone with his car.  Does Tara Butters have to pay her husband for use of his intellectual property?

[way2interested]

On Agent Carter, Jarvis just did a Felicity and hit someone with his car.  Does Tara Butters have to pay her husband for use of his intellectual property?

Ha, I literally laughed for a minute straight because I immediately remembered Felicity and then sat down trying to figure out which one I thought was funnier. 

[jay741982]

I always loved Felicity doing it cause Isabel was in the middle of ranting to Diggle including her irrational hatred of Felicity then BAM!!

[tv echo]

Tara Butters apparently also copied her husband's fondness for end-of-episode shockers.  I love Agent Carter and hope it gets a third season despite dismal ratings.

[doesntworkonwood]

Well... Tara Butters is married to Guggenheim, so it's fair to presume she watches and is very aware of Arrow. It's also fair to make a joke when there are similarities between the two shows they are both involved in because, you know, they're married. 

 

And as far as Kara and Felicity go, Supergirl (the show) was made after Felicity became popular on Arrow, by the same people who created Felicity. It's not like they're two different shows created by two different people, they're both in the same 'world' and are both promoted by the same people, so when similarities between Kara and Felicity first came to light, it's pretty fair for people to compare the two characters and attribute certain qualities to what the producers of Arrow found was working well in their characters. 

 

And I'm pretty sure people on this board are aware of Felicity the show, considering it has come up multiple multiple times. And judging by the fact that the Small Talk thread could pretty much be renamed 'Lets remember Buffy', it's pretty fair to say that the majority of the people on this forum are aware that women on TV didn't start with Felicity Smoak.

[tv echo]

Greg Berlanti's Blindspot also has a blonde tech girl named Patterson (no glasses, though), played by Ashley Johnson, who is sometimes reminiscent of Felicity - though much blander.

Edited March 2, 2016 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

Granted, my only knowledge of Supergirl is from Smallville and the cartoons, but Kara was previously always portrayed as a smart alec teenager with loose blonde hair and a penchant for crop top shirts. In "Supergirl", she ties her hair back, wears glasses and pink button down shirts, and babbles. It's probably a callback to Clark Kent's disguise, but the superficial resemblance to Felicity is there, so I think it's fair to point out the similarities.

Edited March 2, 2016 by lemotomato

[hogwash]

They should've went with the smart alec...

[kismet]

I don't think MB could pull off smart alec.

 

The more I watch Supergirl. The less I see the similarities between FS & Kara. They were there at the beginning superficially. But I think now the writers are writing Kara as her own person. If anything, I think they do borrow heavily from the Clark Kent clumsy adorkable barrel a lot. And like I've said before, if there is anyone that Kara reminds me of its Barry Allen. It often feels like those shows are too similar imo. They repeat a lot of the same themes.

[ComicFan777]

When catching up on episodes of Supergirl, it occurred to me that Supergirl did a much better job at portraying the difficulty of a main character keeping a big secret and lying (ie. Alex killed Kara's aunt, but Martian Manhunter took the blame for it) compared to Arrow.  I felt for both sides without really thinking too much about who is right or wrong in the situation.  Alex tried to tell Kara the truth on occasion and missed her chance because something would come up.  It showed her consistently feeling guilty over the course of more than an episode and struggling with the secret-keeping in all of her facial expressions throughout. 

 

I think that it rang true to me compared to Oliver in Arrow with the BM secret/lies because Alex was actively shown to feel bad about hiding the secret from her sister instead Oliver just telling someone that he felt bad.  When a character is shown to try to fix their mistake through action, I think it is much more effective in making the audience sympathetic to their dilemma (right or wrong, you feel bad for them), and I think that is where I think Arrow missed the mark for me.  I didn't feel any sympathy for Oliver for keeping the secret because it didn't feel like he felt bad about it and his struggle with the truth was rarely demonstrated.  After watching how Supergirl pulled it off, it is such a stark difference in how they tried to portray Oliver in keeping a secret in comparison and it seems so simple of how they could have just made him more sympathetic rather than throwing all characters at us telling us why his actions were justified.  Showing his struggle consistently throughout multiple episodes would have gone a long way to help me feel like he felt like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.  He may have said that he struggled and felt guilty, but it was a brief moment and felt insincere - too bad it ended up being an epic fail. 

[dtissagirl]

 There is absolutely no comparison between Kara Danvers and Felicity Smoak, none what so ever. The only people who think so can't have watched any TV outside Arrow.

 

When I watched the Supergirl pilot, I cringed at how blatant they were trying to capitalize on the Felicity Smoak IMAGERY with how they were styling Kara. Kara's even wearing a baby pink dress shirt, exactly like Felicity wore in her first appearance on Arrow. I cannot believe this is a mere coincidence because both shows are under the same production company.

 

Do I lose my TV viewer credentials now or what.

[doesntworkonwood]

When I watched the Supergirl pilot, I cringed at how blatant they were trying to capitalize on the Felicity Smoak IMAGERY with how they were styling Kara. Kara's even wearing a baby pink dress shirt, exactly like Felicity wore in her first appearance on Arrow. I cannot believe this is a mere coincidence because both shows are under the same production company.

 

Do I lose my TV viewer credentials now or what.

You're going to have to change your display picture, because obviously you are not aware of any character outside of Felicity Smoak. Buffy who?

[lemotomato]

Nope, no resemblance at all. Not even superficially.

 

[ComicFan777]

When I watched the Supergirl pilot, I cringed at how blatant they were trying to capitalize on the Felicity Smoak IMAGERY with how they were styling Kara. Kara's even wearing a baby pink dress shirt, exactly like Felicity wore in her first appearance on Arrow. I cannot believe this is a mere coincidence because both shows are under the same production company.

 

Do I lose my TV viewer credentials now or what.

 

I think Berlanti outright mentioned in one of his interviews that Kara was modeled after Felicity.  I got the impression that Kara couldn't be molded to be like Felicity just like Patty couldn't from the Flash - all were initially modeled after Felicity, but it became obvious it couldn't be the same and they started writing their characters more fitting to the actress that plays them.

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

I think Berlanti outright mentioned in one of his interviews that Kara was modeled after Felicity.  I got the impression that Kara couldn't be molded to be like Felicity just like Patty couldn't from the Flash - all were initially modeled after Felicity, but it became obvious it couldn't be the same and they started writing their characters more fitting to the actress that plays them.

As far as Patty is concerned, the comparison to Felicity was made by the producers themselves. Here's the TV Line article announcing the casting of Patty:

A cop for the Central City PD, Wendy is described as bright and scientific-minded — more specifically, “Think ‘Felicity Smoak’ from Arrow,” the casting call reads.

So yeah, I think there's ample evidence that in the Berlanti-verse, at least, Felicity was used as a superficial template. And of course after the initial episode, Kara and Patty became their own distinct characters.

Edited March 2, 2016 by lemotomato

[FurryFury]

I don't believe that Kara was consciously modeled after Felicity. They aren't that similar, archetype-wise (Felicity is much more assertive, for instance), as for their look, it's quite possible to chalk it down to coincidence. It's not that unique. I mean, I can understand people who thought that Indigo in the last Supergirl episode was modeled on Mystique (even if it may also be a coincidence because that's her comic book look), but blond hair and glasses? Supergirl is traditionally blond, as for glasses (and her job, and her crush on a journalist, and a human billionaire enemy who hates aliens, and a Kryptonian general enemy...) - it's all borrowed from Superman.

Edited March 2, 2016 by FurryFury

[tv echo]

Intentional or not, here are some media comparisons of Kara to Felicity...

 

HOW FELICITY SMOAK SET THE STAGE FOR ‘SUPERGIRL’
By Sulagna Misra December 29, 2015 // 1:00pm
http://decider.com/2015/12/29/how-felicity-smoak-set-the-stage-for-supergirl/

 

'Supergirl' CBS Premiere Has A Female Superhero And Not Much Else [REVIEW]

BY TYLER MCCARTHY @TYLERMCCARTHY ON 10/09/15 AT 3:06 PM
http://www.ibtimes.com/supergirl-cbs-premiere-has-female-superhero-not-much-else-review-2134970

 

Reactions to The Supergirl Pilot Episode
BY SCOTT MURRAY  5/31/2015
http://www.assemblyofgeeks.com/blog/reactions-to-the-supergirl-pilot-episode

 

The TV Superhero Descendants Of Felicity Smoak
By Robert Dougherty Oct 28, 2015 12:15 PM
http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/tv-superhero-descendants-felicity-smoak

[dtissagirl]

If it had happened in any other episode I could chalk it up to coincidence. But every single sartorial choice in a pilot is planned, and thought out, and tested, and approved by executive producers. That might have been the single Supergirl episode Berlanti had to look at clothes/hairstyle for Kara, even. But it's the nature of making a pilot.

Edited March 2, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Guest]

LOL. What is happening?

[dtissagirl]

I once read how a race car shift gear works, and I didn't understand it either.

[SmallScreenDiva]

It's not unbelievable that Berlanti would want to associate, even just visually, a new character with a popular, established one, and it's not an insult to the new character. It's just being smart. It probably won't matter much to viewers not familiar with Felicity Smoak, but to those who do know her and like her, the visual of the pink button down, ponytail and glasses are likely to engender positive feelings. They might check out the new show. Find the character interesting enough on her own. Win for Berlanti.

[looptab]

Don't bite...

[wonderwall]

Lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll Felicity being compliant to men :p 

[AyChihuahua]

Those are some interesting conclusions you're drawing. People discussing whether Kara was, at least initially, modeled after Felicity becomes an attempt to dissuade you from watching Supergirl. I feel fairly comfortable that not one single poster cares whether you watch Supergirl or not.

Probably Berlanti wants all women like that, sweet, compliant, don't argue with men, just like Felicity.

Felicity, a woman who JUST DUMPED OLIVER is sweet and compliant and doesn't argue? I mean sure, except for that time she quit on her very first day. And that time she told him to get his head out of his ass. And those times she told him to stop mooning over her since he wasn't going to do anything about it. And that time she yelled at Oliver several times when he tried to help her through a difficult time. And that time in a different timeline when she told him he doesn't love or trust her and never will and then dumped him.