Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I don't think he'd even be in it if he wasn't busy, gotta keep things separate you know... even though he was in 4 Marvel movies...

If you go to the Movie section and look at the MCU thread there's about 20 actors missing from the photo. I don't think they excluded or would have excluded Clark Gregg, especially since AoS has onscreen ties to the MCU (unlike the Netflix shows).

[tv echo]

Report on "The CW Casting Superheroes" panel at SCAD aTVfest...

SELECT CAST AND CASTING DIRECTOR OF CW’S ‘THE FLASH’ SHARE AUDITION EXPERIENCES
EMILIE KEFALAS   FEBRUARY 9, 2018
https://scaddistrict.com/2018/02/09/select-cast-casting-director-cws-flash-share-audition-experiences/

Quote

The final day of aTVfest, Saturday, Feb. 3, continued the festival’s focus on the work that goes on behind-the-scenes of television with a special panel featuring a casting director, David Rapaport, and two actors, Danielle Panabaker and Kendrick Sampson, from CW’s “The Flash.” Rapaport shared how he and his casting office break down process when it comes to auditioning thousands of actors for a single role, which was the process Panabaker and Sampson went through to earn their respective roles. 
*  *  *
When it comes to the casting process, Rapaport said it is not unlike dating. Many of the programs he uses when agents and managers submit actors to him are actually similar to a dating app like Tinder.

“You see 1,500 submissions for one character and I’m basically acting as a liaison, a matchmaker between the producers and the actors,” Rapaport said. “It’s my job to go through with the producers’ likes or dislikes for the type of person, and on my side, it doesn’t necessarily have ‘I like long walks in park.’ It has resumes and pictures and demo reels and I try to match the essence of a character that we’re looking for with the essence of the actor through their material.”

The timeline for the casting process varies, especially for television series, according to Rapaport. For “The Flash,” he and his team had three months to cast the pilot. When the CW ordered a full first season, Rapaport has 8 to 10 days to cast anywhere from two to 22 characters per episode.

“It’s a really really fast process,” Rapaport said. “It’s a numbers game. What happens is the director and writer will hand us a script. The new characters are in the script, but there’s very brief breakdowns. It’s like, ‘We’re looking for a man in his twenties and a woman in her twenties,’ and again I’m looking for the heart of what that character is and how I can best match them to the actors that I know.”

From there, Rapaport said he and his office release a brief to agents and managers in the business alerting them of what they are casting. Those agents and managers then submit around 2,500 actors per role.

“We narrow that down to about 50-100 people that we then we weed out through pre-reads, self-tapes and then in-person producer sessions and meetings,” Rapaport explained. “We narrow those choices down to one person that we then send to the studio for approval. They send that to the network for approval. And then it comes back to us to negotiate the deal. It’s a fast process. We see a lot of people. There’s a lot of people making different decisions. It’s never quite where you started from.”

Panabaker, who plays Dr. Caitlin Snow/Killer Frost on “The Flash,” said her audition for the role happened very quickly, with the whole process taking less than week.

“I remember I was in New York, and I flew back and I think I met with David Nutter, the director of the pilot, and then read for you and Andrew and a handful of people on a Tuesday,” Panabaker said. “I read for you guys on Tuesday, went to studio on Thursday, and tested on Friday and got the call from Greg Friday afternoon that I got it.”
*  *  *
Sampson plays Dominic Lanse/Clifford DeVoe, a character with dual personalities, which he said he was not aware of when he auditioned. Both he and Panabaker said prior to landing roles on “The Flash,” they had been auditioning for Rapaport for years.

“I don’t even know when it was but there’s another one a few years ago…where I went in and [Rapaport] had all the lines memorized and was acting out the scene with me behind the camera and afterwards I was like, ‘You’re my favorite casting director ever,'” Sampson said. “So every time, I go in and have this long conversation, and then don’t get the part. And then finally with ‘The Flash,’ my agent said, ‘Well he called.'”

In that vein, Rapaport said he has never cast some of his favorite actors.

Edited February 10, 2018 by tv echo

[way2interested]

42 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

If you go to the Movie section and look at the MCU thread there's about 20 actors missing from the photo. I don't think they excluded or would have excluded Clark Gregg, especially since AoS has onscreen ties to the MCU (unlike the Netflix shows).

Oh no, I saw the list. It's just from the bad blood between Kevin Feige and Ike Perlmutter (who Jeph Loeb, the head of Marvel tv reported to), I wonder if that would have affected if CG would be included. I'll admit it mostly comes from bitterness at AoS being Marvel's redheaded stepchild, plus with Brie Larson being included in the photo even though she won't even be in the MCU until after the ten years (unless she has a surprise cameo in Infinity War, which she isn't supposed to appear in until part 2).

[Sakura12]

55 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I have a LoT question. I remember spec abou Rip possibly being Oliver's descendant because his son was named Jonas. Was that ever touched upon? Because I actually thought it could be that his mom is an Olicity descendant. Right before Savage executes him he comments on him being brave like his mother and stupid like his father. That was sort of a huh, maybe it actually goes this way moment for me. 

By the way, I'm done with the first five episodes, they just landed is SC 2046. It's far from perfect, there's some not great acting and I feel some stuff hasn't been explained enough for people who haven't followed Arrow and The Flash (I'm going to have to google some stuff about Stein and Firestorm), but there really isn't too much Savage in these episodes which is, sadly, a good thing. 

I think they said that Jonas was a reference to a character MG created called Jonas Quantum. Any episode without Savage is slightly better episode. The first season of LoT is just not a good show. I'm happy they fixed that in the second and third seasons mostly by getting rid of the Hawks and Savage. 

Also seeing those gifs of Iris and Eddie really show how much more they acted like a couple over Barry and Iris. Barry and Iris just seem to be a lot more telling us how great they are by other characters then actually showing them being this great couple. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

TV Pilot Season 2018: By the Numbers
FEBRUARY 09, 2018 6:15am PT by Lesley Goldberg
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/tv-pilot-season-2018-by-numbers-1083029

Quote

Collectively, ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC and The CW ordered 74 new dramas and comedies — including a handful of straight-to-series pickups — as they look to reboots, light-hearted procedurals and multicamera comedies to cut through the clutter. In the months to come, the broadcasters will compete with cable and streaming outlets for top stars as they hope to find the next This Is Us or The Good Doctor for the 2018-19 season.
*  *  *
Here's a closer look at Pilot Season 2018 by the numbers, including how all the studios fared. But first, here's a look at how overall volume compares with the past few years:

Network     2018     2017      2016    2015    2014    2013    2012                           

ABC            22           24         24        25        27        24        24
CBS            18           17         17        18        19        23        16
Fox             11           13         19        15        16        16        16
The CW       9             6           6          4          6          8          8
NBC           14           14          22        23        27        27        23      

Totals         74           74         88       85        95         98        87
*  *  *
The CW 9 (6 in 2017)

The younger-skewing, Mark Pedowitz-run network set a record with nine pilot pickups, including the Supernatural backdoor pilot. The pickups are again equally divided between co-owners Warner Bros. Television and CBS Television Studios, though the former has one more this season with Wayward Sisters. Thematically, the network is again betting big on genre fare with reboots of Charmed and Roswell in the works, among others.

Big swing: The CW remains committed to Charmed, which was redeveloped from last season, with a new "feminist reboot" take already facing backlash from the original cast.
*  *  *
STUDIO BREAKDOWN

The broadcast networks continued to focus on ownership this pilot season, buying largely from their vertically aligned studios. That helped CBS Television Studios repeat again this year. Of CBS Television Studios' 20 overall projects, only four are set up at corporate sibling The CW, with nine overall co-productions. ABC Studios held on to its second-place ranking (with only three co-productions overall). Warner Bros. Television moved from fourth to third this season on the strength of The CW's big year and its willingness to do co-productions with CBS. 20th Century Fox Television dropped again this year from third to fourth as Fox had fewer needs and outside sales were virtually nonexistent. Universal Television repeated its fifth-place showing, though the studio has business everywhere but Fox. And cable-focused indie Sony Pictures Television Studios, under new leadership this season, remained in sixth with five sales, down the most year-over-year of all the studios. 
*  *  *
Warner Bros. Television: 14 (12 in 2017)

Peter Roth's willingness to change with the times and share in ownership helped the studio improve its haul from last year (and move up a slot in the overall rankings). The independent studio has sales everywhere save for Fox (where it has Gotham, Lucifer and Lethal Weapon). Of the studio's 14 overall sales, two are co-productions with CBSTVS. Helping the studio was The CW's record year, with five of the younger-skewing network's nine orders coming from WBTV.

Co-productions: 2
Rank last season: Fourth

Edited February 10, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Diamond Select Toys Sneak Peek Ahead of International Toy Fair – New York 2018
Posted by Rich Johnston February 8, 2018
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/08/diamond-select-toys-sneak-peek-ahead-international-toy-fair-new-york-2018/

Quote

Every year, the International Toy Fair in New York delivers a score of toy-related images onto the Internet, many of them items that are being seen for the first time. Diamond Select Toys will have a slew of new products – and even a few new licenses – at the show this year, which runs from February 17-20,  – and now Diamond are giving us a sneak peek. Check out new action figures, statues, banks, busts, dolls, vinyl figures and Minimates from Pacific Rim, The Predator, Kingdom Hearts, Batman: The Animated Series, Marvel Comics, Marvel Studios and more…
*  *  *
 
DC Gallery Arrow TV PVC Diorama (FEB182294, $45.00)

A Diamond Select Toys Release! You have failed this city! The Green Arrow brings his brand of justice to the DC Gallery line with this sculpture of Oliver Queen from the CW TV series Arrow! Based on Stephen Amell’s portrayal of the character on the show, this 9-inch PVC diorama shows him drawing an arrow from his quiver atop a Starling City rooftop. This sculpture features detailed sculpting and paint applications and comes packaged in a full-color window box. Sculpted by Rocco Tartamella!

Also Coming Soon:
 
DC Gallery Flash TV Series PVC Diorama (JAN182372, $45.00)

 
DC Gallery Supergirl TV Show PVC Diorama (DEC172255, $45.00)

Edited February 10, 2018 by tv echo

[Miss Dee]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

By the way, I'm done with the first five episodes, they just landed is SC 2046. It's far from perfect, there's some not great acting and I feel some stuff hasn't been explained enough for people who haven't followed Arrow and The Flash (I'm going to have to google some stuff about Stein and Firestorm), but there really isn't too much Savage in these episodes which is, sadly, a good thing. 

Believe me, there are some good character moments in the episodes coming up, even if the plotting in Season 1 left a lot to be desired.

You'll start to see this course-correct in the season finale. Each episode goes up in quality starting with Season 2's premiere; by the time Season 2B starts the show is firing on all cylinders. From what I can see, its the general consensus of fandom that it still is.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Miss Dee

[Featherhat]

The possibility that Rip is decended from Oliver was never brought up. It was just a co incidence like the two Rorys, two Rays and a Roy. 

I liked Star City 2046, SA was hilarious as Grumpy Old Man!Oliver and it convinced me that the scruff is as much facial hair as I ever want to see on his Oliver (or in any live action). It gets better (although at some points more Savagey sigh), throughout the season and then as @Miss Dee and @Sakura12 gets a whole lot better in S2 and 2B really ramps it up. I feel like Arrow might benefit from having a villain POV ep like LOT did but then that had JB, NM, ML and AD gleefully feasting on scenery in a way only they can.

[bijoux]

Wait, who is the second Ray? 

[SmallScreenDiva]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Wait, who is the second Ray? 

The gay dude we met on Earth X, I think.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

The gay dude we met on Earth X, I think.

That was The Ray, not another Ray 

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was The Ray, not another Ray 

His name is Ray though.

[bijoux]

Oh, right. I think his real name actually was also Ray and one of the heroes commented on that. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Diamond Select Toys Sneak Peek Ahead of International Toy Fair – New York 2018
Posted by Rich Johnston February 8, 2018
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/08/diamond-select-toys-sneak-peek-ahead-international-toy-fair-new-york-2018/

Those are great. That's the best Oliver one yet. He looks like Stephen Amell.

Just now, bijoux said:

Oh, right. I think his real name actually was also Ray and one of the heroes commented on that. 

Oh I didn't ever hear that part.  Thanks!

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, tv echo said:

Diamond Select Toys Sneak Peek Ahead of International Toy Fair – New York 2018
Posted by Rich Johnston February 8, 2018
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/02/08/diamond-select-toys-sneak-peek-ahead-international-toy-fair-new-york-2018/

Barry and Oliver look great but I see no resemblance in Kara's face.  

Kind of a random thought, but it's a pity they don't have action figure toys for all of the Arrowverse characters.  Collect em all!

[Wishing Well]

Just rewatched all of Agents of SHIELD since we have a month off, and there's nothing more that I want than an Arrowverse/AOS crossover.  Felicity and Cisco working with Fitzsimmons...with both sides thinking the others are just smart geniuses until Cisco busts out the vibe powers and Felicity and Fitzsimmons making effective science murder methods together.  May and Sara proving to be the most useful despite having no powers or PhD.  Daisy and Oliver discussing their various reasons for self hate and Daisy quaking Oliver before he can shoot her?  Mack would find a kindred spirit in Diggle as they stare in horror at everything.  And finally, Yoyo teaching Barry how to be a speedster without mucking everything up. 

[Mellowyellow]

Arrow should take lessons from AoS on how to sell new characters to the audience! I was sad about Deke! DEKE!!!!!!

[way2interested]

Woah, really? I disliked Deke from beginning to end (if that was the end). The only newbie I liked was half of Tess (I didn't like her intro but she grew on me until she was abruptly killed and then even more abruptly came back) and half of Flint (not a great actor or character but I loved how Mack and Elena got to be parents for a bit). I'm just glad we're finally back to present day, but the midseason finale was good as always.

[insomniadreams88]

Deke grew on me to the point that I didn’t particularly like him but I still wanted to see more of him. 

[Mellowyellow]

I thought he was endearing by the midseason finale. They wrote a great scene for him and Enoch.

I saw an article that the 100th ep might have a FitzSimmons wedding but I think that might be wishful thinking on the writer's part. Anyone know anything about that?

[Wishing Well]

AOS reddit (so much nicer than Arrowverse reddit) has me convinced that Deke is a Fitzsimmons descendant.

 I would be SO down with Grandparents!Fitzsimmons after seeing their interactions, and how he kinda looks like Marauder Fitz.  

[tennisgurl]

I grew to like Deke a lot more than I thought I would, and was really sad to see him go. The last scene with him and Enoch really tugged on the heart strings, and I was really invested, in characters we have only known for a few weeks! 

I could totally see Deke as a FitzSimmons relative, especially Fitz. He looks a decent amount like him, and they even have rather similar body language, especially when Fitz is channeling is "Leopold" dark side. 

[Wishing Well]

Speaking of AOS, I remember when I started watching (s3 was airing) and I told my friend how much I liked handsome Ward and thought he would be cute with Skye...in the stoic dude cheerful chick kind of way.  Kind of like Olicity.  She didn’t say anything, she just laughed hysterically.  

 

Two years later, I am laughing hysterically now while my friend Travis starts watching and also thinks Ward is ultimately a sweet guy who is cute with Skye.   He’s about 6 episodes away from um...the beginnings of what will ultimately lead to SquidWard.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Wishing Well said:

Speaking of AOS, I remember when I started watching (s3 was airing) and I told my friend how much I liked handsome Ward and thought he would be cute with Skye...in the stoic dude cheerful chick kind of way.  Kind of like Olicity.  She didn’t say anything, she just laughed hysterically.  

 

Two years later, I am laughing hysterically now while my friend Travis starts watching and also thinks Ward is ultimately a sweet guy who is cute with Skye.   He’s about 6 episodes away from um...the beginnings of what will ultimately lead to SquidWard.

I was so relieved when he turned out evil.  I hated them as a potential couple.  I also hated Skye for about 6 episodes so that seems fair.  But I lived in fear of when they really were going to push them as a couple.  So there was cheering as he kept getting worse and worse.  And I liked her more and more in the process.  

I finally lost interest in AoS last season to the point of not watching as they brought in Ghost Rider and the AI,  but I binged this season and have been loving it. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Sakura12]

I think my issue with AoS is I don't hate it but I don't love it either, so it loses my interest quickly and I don't feel like watching or I forget it's on. I stopped a few episodes into the AI storyline.  Maybe it is their many story arcs. One can interest me then the next one doesn't and I stop watching.  Compare that to Gotham which is just batshit crazy nonsense but I love it because it keeps me interested. they even manage to get me to like characters I previously hated. Not many shows have done that. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Sakura12

[Wishing Well]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was so relieved when he turned out evil.  I hated them as a potential couple.  I also hated Skye for about 6 episodes so that seems fair.  But I lived in fear of when they really were going to push them as a couple.  So there was cheering as he kept getting worse and worse.  And I liked her more and more in the process.  

I finally lost interest in AoS last season to the point of not watching as they brought in Ghost Rider and the AI,  but I binged this season and have been loving it. 

One of my favorite scenes is still the one where after 10 episodes of the tropey bad guy is in love with good girl, will kill you but do anything for her, Skye got sick of that too and just shot him in the back four times.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I've always been pretty lukewarm on AoS until the last couple of seasons. I really enjoyed the Ghost Rider and AI storylines and was amazed at how they managed to bring in these new characters, give them focus but not sideline the original characters. Also, I've become very attached to Yoyo and Mac and Ming-Na always rocks for me. I like how they split their storylines within the season, it helps with the pacing, IMO. Something Arrow could learn from.

[tennisgurl]

I really am impressed at how AoS manages to work in its new characters in ways that make sense, and dont push the original main characters into the background. They find a good balance of allowing new characters into the plot organically, and know when to let a character go and when to keep them around. 

I found AoS rather bland at first, and then it kicked into high gear when the HYDRA arc started, then went on and off from "awesome" to "good enough" until the Ghost Rider arc, and its been a thrill ride ever since. The Ghost Rider, AI, and Space arcs were all really unique, but still tied into each other, and didn't seem like "and now, something completely different" every time. I especially loved how the Ghost Rider and AI world arc came together. 

Saw Antman last night on TV, and I always forget how much I love that movie until I see it again. Its such a fun ride, but without sacrificing solid character work and development. Its very much an MCU movie, but it has a different sort of vibe than a lot of the other movies. It feels like a Leverage style heist story that happens to take place in a superhero world. Of course, thats why I enjoy combined universes like the MCU and the Arrowverse (despite the billions of dull articles complaining about genre fatigue that have been coming out since 2009), you get to try different things and play around within the genre. Antman still ends with the hero fighting the villain, but its a more low key battle, and if the heroes hadn't shown up, its not like the villain would go out and immediately start blowing up buildings. They had to stop the villain for, essentially, being an amoral illegal arms dealer, not for wanting to blow up stuff with a portal in the sky. Its why I haven't gotten tired of the superhero genre yet, there is so much you can do with it with a bit of creativity. And Antman is quite a creative film, which I give it a lot of credit for. It shows you can make pretty much any weird thing work, if you commit to the concept, like finding cool ways to combine shrinking with combat, and think outside the box. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Its why I haven't gotten tired of the superhero genre yet, there is so much you can do with it with a bit of creativity.

Yeah, the MCU really leaning into different films belonging really to different genres like the caper, the war movie, the spy thriller, the broad comedy, the mystical arts jujutsu, and even a teen action movie - it has kept it fresh. It's all been under one "Superhero" umbrella but hasn't had to conform to one superhero style.  

[Mellowyellow]

5 hours ago, Wishing Well said:

One of my favorite scenes is still the one where after 10 episodes of the tropey bad guy is in love with good girl, will kill you but do anything for her, Skye got sick of that too and just shot him in the back four times.

I loved that they never wrote her as being torn about him! She was all "You are ffing NUTS" and shot him! 

I liked GoodWard in the computer generated world though.

I can't work out if I enjoy AoS's new characters because they introduce them to me slowly or because they are better characters. Lol probably both. I remember seeing Yo-Yo in small doses and thinking "Ooh I'd like to see more of her". I LOVED Bobbi, Lance and Mack when they appeared. 

I don't have the devotion to AoS that I have towards Felicity but I love it as a show and enjoy almost everything about it. I've never watched it and thought "WTF you morons". 

[BkWurm1]

I'm really excited to watch LoT.  More excited than I can recall for a non-Arrow, Arrowverse show in a long time.  

I have 15 minutes on the DVR already, just the perfect amount so I can fast-forward through the commercials.  :D  

[Mellowyellow]

See I'm lukewarm about LoT these days! Can't put my finger on it! LOVE LOVE LOVE Ray though! He's my "Felicity"of LoT and the only reason I watch.

Not counting Arrow (cuz I have a complicated and unhealthy relationship with Arrow) the other show that I am enjoying besides AoS is Supergirl surprisingly! I think I watch Flash out of habit! We usually talk over it but still we leave it on for some reason and sit through it. 

[tennisgurl]

God I missed LoT. Its completely nuts and yet makes so much more sense than half the crap that happens in the rest of the franchise. 

Great season opener! My love for this show is both deep and slightly creepy. 

[Primal Slayer]

I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow.

[BkWurm1]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

God I missed LoT. Its completely nuts and yet makes so much more sense than half the crap that happens in the rest of the franchise. 

Great season opener! My love for this show is both deep and slightly creepy. 

It was so nice not to rage during an episode for the stupid. 

And yeah, it really was a great episode.  Did what LoT does best, make me rethink my hatred of the bad guys and let the Legends be themselves.  

[Sakura12]

I do like that LoT gives us some insight into the villians by having them bond with heroes. The other shows don't really do that. And LoT still keeps them evil. 

Even Reverse Flash had a human moment with Ray last season. Which is probably why I like Matt Letchers version more than Tom's now.

[lemotomato]

37 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow.

LoT is a goofy ensemble show about time travel adventures, and Arrow is (supposed to be) a gritty, grounded drama with one titular character. MG is better at one and not the other, apparently.

Edited February 13, 2018 by lemotomato

[Starfish35]

52 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow.

Phil Klemmer?

[Miss Dee]

I think Phil Klemmer has a bigger impact on LoT's awesomeness than anybody suspects.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Phil Klemmer?

Must be! 

[lemotomato]

More reasons why LoT doesn't make the same mistakes as Arrow:

- not forced to keep or bring in characters just because of comic canon

- didn't waste 1.5 seasons setting up a spinoff show

- isn't used as DC's dumping ground to introduce characters that have comics coming out 

- No 5 year plan that needed to get dragged out in present day and flashbacks

- shorter season

Edited February 13, 2018 by lemotomato

[Sakura12]

LoT does bring in comic characters, Jonah Hex, Zari and Constantine are comic characters. And Wally is being sent to the Legends because the Flash doesn't know what to with him. LoT is just set up to introduce new characters better than the other shows. 

And LoT is much better at writing for an ensemble than the other shows. All the characters feel important and needed, even the villains. 

Speaking of passion, Sara and Constantine showed more passion than Barry and Iris.  

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT does bring in comic characters, Jonah Hex, Zari and Constantine are comic characters. And Wally is being sent to the Legends because the Flash doesn't know what to with him. LoT is just set up to introduce new characters better than the other shows. 

I think the difference is that they aren't - for example - continuously having to reimagine a Black Canary character or set up for spin offs (Arrow's done it twice - the first time the story didn't suffer, the second time it did). Or seemingly being forced to contend with DC wanting their characters out for other reasons (like Waller, Deadshot). That leads to sloppier writing requiring bigger logic leaps. 

19 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

- shorter season

I'd love to see what Arrow would be like if there were only 13 eps to fill. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by apinknightmare

[WindofChange]

I'm sad because Arrow's biggest downfall is outside interference. From DC probably forcing these newbies onto the show, to the network forcing a breakup, to the network forcing Arrow to be the launchpad of many of DC shows (including LoT/Flash), to DC forcing Arrow to kill certain characters, to the larger universe commanding Arrow to step outside of its realistic roots.

Arrow is very much the oldest sibling in this sense. They go through all the shit from the 'parents' while the younger shows just enjoy without worrying about any interferences from DC/CW/WB.

This is the BIGGEST downfall that The Flash/LoT/Supergirl/Black Lightning haven't had to deal with so far.

And this is why the comparisons between Arrow/Any other DCTV show is unfair. Until those shows deal with the same interferences that Arrow has dealt with, maybe it's best just not to compare.

Edited February 13, 2018 by WindofChange

[lemotomato]

18 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT does bring in comic characters, Jonah Hex, Zari and Constantine are comic characters. And Wally is being sent to the Legends

Jonah Hex and Constantine are recurring. LoT didn't have to cram 3 new regulars in to the cast, two of them having redundant skills of someone who was already on the team, and one because "she's important to his story in the comics!" Zari works because she has a unique role to play. And Wally is replacing their team meta that left because Garber wanted to leave.

Edited February 13, 2018 by lemotomato

[tennisgurl]

LoT brings in comic book characters, but they dont feel like they're there because they"need"to be there, but because they have an actual purpose on the show, and the writers have actual stories to tell with them. They dont ignore comic cannon, but they arent trapped to it, and instead of making characters feel shoehorned in, they find stuff for them to do. 

It also helps that LoT has characters that are really well defined, in ways that other shows could learn from. It means that their mad cap adventures are always grounded in a certain amount of reality, because the characters seem real, and their reactions to the things around them seem real. They also shake up the ensemble frequently, giving different characters different scenes with different people, and that makes the characters more well rounded. Like, Sara has a totally dynamic with Rip than she has with Amaya, which is totally different than her dynamic with Mick, which is different than her dynamic with Ray, and it all just adds to all of their characters. It also means characters dont get stuck in scene partner ruts, like how Dig was always with Dina for awhile, and Curtis and Rene were always a double act. It made the character dynamics less interesting, because you didn't see how they all interacted as a team, or how different people brought out different sides to each other. The writers and actors from LoT are clearly comfortable with their characters, so they arent worried about shaking things up out of fear that a dynamic wont work, like I felt sometimes in Arrow with the newbies. 

[Mellowyellow]

37 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

More reasons why LoT doesn't make the same mistakes as Arrow:

- not forced to keep or bring in characters just because of comic canon

- didn't waste 1.5 seasons setting up a spinoff show

- isn't used as DC's dumping ground to introduce characters that have comics coming out 

- No 5 year plan that needed to get dragged out in present day and flashbacks

- shorter season

I believe you forgot to add: Not forced to rehire actors they had already fired/written out.

[WindofChange]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

LoT brings in comic book characters, but they dont feel like they're there because they"need"to be there

Which again... Is LoT's gain that they don't have to deal with the interferences from the network/DC that Arrow has to deal with.

• Ray Palmer - Network wanted a spin-off
• Wild Dog - It's not a coincidence that a new Wild Dog comic came out the same time Rene was introduced
• Dinah Drake - Diane Nelson wanted more female characters
• Curtis - Pretty sure it was DC mandated
• Black Siren - Well..... We all know what happened there
• Sara Lance - They dedicated a lot of 4A to bring Sara back (and this was one of the weaker plot lines) for LoT

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

I dont understand how MG can be so right with LoT but so wrong when it comes to Arrow.

1. Less network/studio interference.

2. Did not need to change its original concept (gritty, non-superpowered vigilante show focusing on corporate/1% misdeeds, with season long mysteries/intrigues) to accommodate incoming shows.

3. Did not need to spend much of its third season/part of its fourth introducing a spinoff show - a introduction that did no favors to a number of its characters (notably Laurel, as always, but Felicity, Thea and Curtis also took a few hits there)

4. Allowed to hire multiple veteran/award winning actors and two Shakespearean trained actors, instead of a number of virtual unknowns, only one with stage training, and Susanna Thompson. 

5. Allowed to immediately fire three unpopular characters at the end of its first season.

6. Allowed to have extras/day players throughout its run, instead of forcing regular/recurring characters take on roles/dialogue that would ordinarily have been spoken/done by day players/guest stars (notably, Ray season three, but also Thea, season four, and poor Laurel in seasons two through four)

7. Continued to keep the same look (cheap!) through all three seasons, in contrast to Arrow's comparatively lavish filming, with carefully structured cinematography that maintained a specific look from episodes 105 to 223, and the occasional season 3 episode, to....what we have now, where even after an improvements in the ongoing set disasters that were seasons four and five, the show has no set look, and is rarely giving us cinematographic moments like that one lovely rain shot in 210.

Something I find fascinating, though: if we forget about Whose Line Is It Anyway: the two longest running shows on the CW are also the only two shows that endured and survived a significant downgrading to sets/art design/extras/etc - you can see the same issues with Supernatural if you compare this season to their earlier seasons. Showing that CW shows, at least, seem to be able to survive this sort of thing. 

8. Was not forced to give up a major subplot, built over the course of an entire season, one meant to connect its flashbacks to the present day plot, for the sake of a major motion picture.

Basically, the two situations aren't comparable.

[BkWurm1]

The first season with Vandal Savage and the Hawks was really a mess and LoT was very lucky to be allowed to shed it's most obvious problems at the end of season one, but I have to also give it due credit for finding ways to shine and connect the characters to the audience in unexpected ways despite those on-going issues.  LoT is different and hasn't had all the same challenges of Arrow, but it's ability to handle character development and its ensemble cast remains impressive in my opinion. 

It is still absolute crap when it comes to rules of time travel and the occasional plot point or continuity but somehow I mind a whole lot less on LoT than I do on Arrow or The Flash.