Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Cleanqueen]

So if they're currently writing the flash /supergirl musical episode then that means it'll be either episode 17 or 18. I hope the plan to have arrow characters crossover still stands, I want Felicity to be in it. 

[Trini]

A few DCTV moments in io9's Best and Worst TV 2016.

[tv echo]

Includes Flash spoiler...

Ask Ausiello: Spoilers on Big Bang, Homeland, The Flash, Supernatural, Gilmore Girls, The 100 and More
By Michael Ausiello / December 20 2016, 11:53 AM PST
http://tvline.com/2016/12/20/the-big-bang-theory-season-10-spoilers-sheldon-amy-ask-ausiello/

[tv echo]

10 Most Epic TV Superhero Moments in 2016, From ‘Arrow’ to ‘Luke Cage’ (Photos)
Linda Ge | December 19, 2016 @ 6:41 PM
http://www.thewrap.com/10-biggest-epic-tv-superhero-moments-2016-arrow-luke-cage-supergirl/

Quote

2 of 14
"Supergirl" flies to The CW
In a rare move, CBS relinquished the rights to its only superhero drama, allowing the Kryptonian to join her CW brethren.
*  *  *
5 of 14
The death of Black Canary, "Arrow"
After a season-long mystery about "Who's in the grave?" the answer was revealed and devastated fans and other characters alike. The loss of Laurel Lance has left a void in the Arrowverse that's still gaping -- though her mysterious reappearance in the "Arrow" midseason finale may shake things up.
*  *  *
7 of 14
When Barry met Kara, "Supergirl"
Before the monster Arrowverse crossover brought Supergirl over to The CW, The Flash visited her in National City, marking a rare cross-network crossover event that delighted fans and opened the doors to so many possibilities.
*  *  *
11 of 14
Legends of SuperFlarrow
More than a dozen DC comic book characters appeared on screen together when The CW tackled its most ambitious crossover yet, bringing together the heroes of "Arrow," "The Flash," "Supergirl" and "Legends of Tomorrow."

[tv echo]

Marc Guggenheim Talks del Toro's 'Trollhunters,' Confirms More DC/CW Crossovers
Posted December 20, 2016 by Scott Huver
https://www.moviefone.com/2016/12/20/marc-guggenheim-trollhunters-dc-cw-crossovers/

Quote

I imagine you were pretty gratified to see the enthusiastic response to the big crossover among the DC/CW series, particularly to the 100th episode of "Arrow." When you started seeing the fan reaction to what was happening on-screen, how did you feel?
I'd probably have to say, first of all -- just because it's the nature of my personality -- relieved. You know what was really nice? What was so great about the response -- I was reading Twitter and checking social media and everything, was for one night at least, the "Arrow" 100th, we all sort of dropped the tribalism of which relationships we wanted, and what plotlines were upsetting us, and it was just the celebration of the show. And that was really, really wonderful.

Both the 100th episode and the crossover, it really was written with fans in mind. The whole thing really was an exercise in "What do we think is cool? What do we think the audience will think is cool? Trust that what we think is cool and what the audience thinks is cool is the same thing, and just go for it."

I think the cherry on top of the sundae was, I think everyone watched with an eye towards what we were trying to accomplish. They recognized it was a TV show and it wasn't a movie, so they were I think impressed by the scope of it. They recognized that each of these shows has their own identity, so they understood that the "Flash" episode is an episode of "Flash," same with "Arrow," same with "Legends."

I think what was most gratifying was just the fact that everyone was on board for this ride that we had constructed for them. It was super great. Definitely everyone, both here at the office and the studio and network, we've still been on a high.

Do you see this as being an annual event?
Yeah. I think, certainly, each year we've done a crossover, and each year it's gotten bigger and more ambitious. Those sorts of decisions are actually made well above my head -- though I don't think it's hard to look at the landscape and go "Well, surely there will be a proper four night crossover next year with all four shows -- 'Supergirl' properly included."

But who knows? I think all of us are still recovering a little bit from this crossover. It is a lot of work. I'm not going to lie to you. It's a labor of love for sure, but it's definitely -- it's kind of like childbirth. You don't want to immediately start thinking about the next baby. You're still holding the newborn in your arms.

I felt with the "Arrow" 100th in particular, by the time we got to the end of that particular episode, for "Arrow," the table's really been reset; everything seems open to a whole new way of looking at things and the possibilities are wide open. Do you guys feel that way creatively on staff?
Yes and no, in the sense that, look: I think on "Arrow," we've always sort of felt like, once we introduced Barry Allen, and once the universe sort of expanded to include metahumans, and now time travel and parallel universes, and now aliens, I think we all recognize that the world is much bigger, and that "Arrow" can absolutely do episodes where he's fighting a metahuman, or, like we did last year, introduce magic.

I think, last year, we leaned pretty heavily into metahumans and magic. I wouldn't say the results were mixed -- I would say that the response was mixed. I think what's a fun challenge for us on "Arrow"; how do we acknowledge this larger universe that has grown, while at the same time allowing "Arrow" to do what it does best? Which is: each of these shows has its own identity, and "Arrow" is the gritty, grounded crime drama. We do 23 episodes a year. So that's a pretty big canvas, and I think that out of 23 episodes, the show can benefit from, and withstand, the occasional foray into genre.

Edited December 21, 2016 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

Trailers for midseason premieres for Supergirl and Flash

[way2interested]

Interesting. So 1b of Flash has time travel in general, 2b has E2 travel, and 3b has traveling into the future. I'm honestly wondering they can go next. Also, since I'm kind of stumped as to where Supergirl's going I kind of liked that teaser more even though it told me less.

Just awaiting LoT and Arrow then, I suppose. 

[Starfish35]

So Supergirl returns January 23rd, not the 16th as previously rumored.  Good - that means all four shows come back the same week.

[ruby24]

I think where they can go next is to have Flash descendants start coming to the present from the future. Like Bart Allen, who is a HUGE character in Flash comics- they have to bring him in sooner or later. He's the Flash that actually was the character on Smallville back in the day.

He's Barry and Iris's grandson, but I'm guessing the show will turn him into their son to simplify it. Of course I don't know where that leaves the Tornado Twins, their actual kids, since they might want to use them too at some point. I guess Barry and Iris could always just have three kids in the future. Maybe Bart's the oldest.

They could actually do a lot more with the future in general, imo, more than they can do with the past. They're only going five months ahead right now, but they could go years, or decades. I could easily see some sort of episode set ten years from now, where we see what happened to everyone, similar to how they did E2.

Also, I think Supergirl has to line up with Flash for at least this next chunk of episodes, because it's going to include that musical crossover two-parter, which has to happen back to back. I gotta admit, I'm kind of looking forward to it, although it could be a disaster.

But the easiest thing they could do (and should do imo) is bring in Music Meister as the villain. Boom. Simple explanation for everyone singing, lol.

Edited December 21, 2016 by ruby24

[Mellowyellow]

Oooh both trailers look awesome! When do they release the Arrow and LoT ones?

[kismet]

The musical crossover is about the only thing worthwhile coming down the pike for the Flarrowverse IMO. They are all narrative messes right now, well except LoT and that is because it really has no structure to begin with.

My New Year's wish for the Flarrowverse is that all the writers' rooms get it together for 2017.

Edited December 21, 2016 by kismet

[statsgirl]

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

I think, last year, we leaned pretty heavily into metahumans and magic. I wouldn't say the results were mixed -- I would say that the response was mixed.

Translation:  What we did was great but some people didn't understand how great we are.

Wow, that's some serious damseling of Iris going on.  Why is it on The Flash women always need men to save them?  (Also why Sara would be a terrible fit on that show.)

[MariaHill]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Translation:  What we did was great but some people didn't understand how great we are.

I literally LOL'd when I read that quote. "The audience is too stupid to appreciate our brilliance and they are all Watching TV Wrong." Whatever you need to tell yourself, Guggie, you hack. 

[ruby24]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Wow, that's some serious damseling of Iris going on.  Why is it on The Flash women always need men to save them?  (Also why Sara would be a terrible fit on that show.)

I want to put this delicately, but I have seen a lot of reaction specific to Iris on this topic, and it's that it's very rare for black women to be portrayed as vulnerable, in need of saving, and the object of true love, affection and the desire to protect them. So while some may see that as a cliche, others do see it as a change in the typical stereotypes of black female characters, especially in terms of Barry's all consuming love for her, etc. Just wanted to point that out.

And I will say that I myself have only recently become enlightened about this as well.

[Proteus]

I groaned at The Flash promo. Too much Iris and Westallen drama. They don't have the guts to kill her off so I just don't care.

[Trini]

On 12/21/2016 at 6:05 PM, statsgirl said:

Wow, that's some serious damseling of Iris going on.  Why is it on The Flash women always need men to save them?  (Also why Sara would be a terrible fit on that show.)

Well, it hasn't happened yet. Plus everyone gets 'damselled' on The Flash; but actually, they haven't done this much with Iris, even though it's a trope that the hero's love interest is always in danger. The last time Iris was truly damselled (season 1), she saved herself. I don't know how she would do that against a speedster much more powerful than Barry.

But I agree that they need to do better with the female characters. The male-to-female ratio of characters also skews things so that the men get more to do/featured more. (Make Tina McGee regular/recurring!)

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I groaned at The Flash promo. Too much Iris and Westallen drama. They don't have the guts to kill her off so I just don't care.

I'm glad there's "too much" Iris; last year they ignored her for 2/3s of the season.

[RedVitC]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I want to put this delicately, but I have seen a lot of reaction specific to Iris on this topic, and it's that it's very rare for black women to be portrayed as vulnerable, in need of saving, and the object of true love, affection and the desire to protect them. So while some may see that as a cliche, others do see it as a change in the typical stereotypes of black female characters, especially in terms of Barry's all consuming love for her, etc. Just wanted to point that out.

And I will say that I myself have only recently become enlightened about this as well.

Yeah, the reaction on my timeline after the new trailer is (besides flailing) mostly relief that Iris is allowed to cry and be vulnerable and that she doesn't have to be strong all the time or the 'strong black woman who doesn't need a man'. (edited to make clearer that this is the reaction I see on my timeline after the trailer).

This is not really the place for this topic, so I'll point to this article ( Why It Matters When Women of Color Play Love Interests) that I posted on The Flash forums a while back because it mentioned Iris. It doesn't go deeply into the issue, but it brings up some of the points you mention here, why it's different/important for a woman of color to be the love interest, and protected etc.

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Well, it hasn't happened yet. Plus everyone gets 'damselled' on The Flash; but actually, they haven't done this much with Iris, even though it's a trope that the hero's love interest is always in danger. The last time Iris was truly damselled (season 1), she saved herself. I don't know how she would do that against an speedster much more powerful than Barry.

 

Yeah, the one time Iris was kidnapped, back in S1, she was the one to give the finishing punch. And when they were hostages, she was the one to save them.

Edited December 22, 2016 by RedVitC
make things clearer

[way2interested]

I would at least hope though that Iris has the opportunity to be vulnerable though, because it seems to be more focused on Barry, Wally, and the team being determined to save Iris rather than what she thinks about all of this. I'll wait until the episodes come out to see for myself, and it is Barry's show so his pov is the most important, but it would be interesting for Iris have to deal with that information and what she does with it (and subtle props for the show at least not keeping that a secret until sweeps). However, I am a bit worried that any "vulnerability" from Iris will be brief (like 1-2 scenes wrapped up in the same episode that she finds out) and then swept under the rug for other povs instead.

[statsgirl]

I acknowledge that I don't know what it feels like to be always represented as having to be strong by Iris has spent more than two seasons doing nothing but supporting the men in her life, which I think is another form of damseling, while being lied to and having her own story dismissed (except for that one time she could punch the bully).   I'll see what it's like but unless Iris has some agency in her own story, I'll be disappointed.

I think the two worst flaws of The Flash is how they write women, all the women, and how everyone keeps propping Barry no matter what he does. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I think, last year, we leaned pretty heavily into metahumans and magic. I wouldn't say the results were mixed -- I would say that the response was mixed. 

Yeah, sure, it was the metahumans  and magic that were the problem last season.  Sure.  DD got a little repetitive in the present but magic in the flashbacks was not why they sucked.  And metahumans and magic really, really weren't the biggest issues in the present day story line. But go ahead MG.  Pretend a little while longer.

 

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I want to put this delicately, but I have seen a lot of reaction specific to Iris on this topic, and it's that it's very rare for black women to be portrayed as vulnerable, in need of saving, and the object of true love, affection and the desire to protect them. So while some may see that as a cliche, others do see it as a change in the typical stereotypes of black female characters, especially in terms of Barry's all consuming love for her, etc. Just wanted to point that out.

And I will say that I myself have only recently become enlightened about this as well.

That's actually really intersting.  And frustrating.  So on one hand, yay for Iris being written first and foremost as any other woman on the show without the writers seeing first the color of her skin, but boo that women are still being written as props for men.   Maybe if they'd done on a week to week basis a better job of giving Iris (and Caitlin and any guest stars) their own PoV first and foremost (before just being there to build up the stories of the men around them) then I'd be more gratified in knowing that Iris is breaking a stereotype, but it's disheartening knowing it's probably only because the writers are so completely myopic in their guys first agenda for the show.  

So I remain frustrated, but I guess it's nice there is at least some sort of a silver lining. 

[Proteus]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm glad there's "too much" Iris; last year they ignored her for 2/3s of the season.

I didn't think so. 

[RedVitC]

7 hours ago, way2interested said:

I would at least hope though that Iris has the opportunity to be vulnerable though, because it seems to be more focused on Barry, Wally, and the team being determined to save Iris rather than what she thinks about all of this. I'll wait until the episodes come out to see for myself, and it is Barry's show so his pov is the most important, but it would be interesting for Iris have to deal with that information and what she does with it (and subtle props for the show at least not keeping that a secret until sweeps). However, I am a bit worried that any "vulnerability" from Iris will be brief (like 1-2 scenes wrapped up in the same episode that she finds out) and then swept under the rug for other povs instead.

Fair enough :) I definitely hope and think we need to see how Iris herself deals with this information and what she herself does in reaction to it. But I also think that letting her be scared and cry for that moment in the trailer and having Barry comfort her in itself is a positive. They could have also gone the route that she brushed it off and immediately said something like, 'the future isn't written, Barry' (that's not necessarily wrong if it's in line with who a character is, but it would be more in the direction of her not getting to be vulnerable, and in this case she'd essentially be comforting him, making the moment about him.). So I'm definitely also waiting to see what happens in the next few episodes, but I'm happy with what we got in the trailer.

[RedVitC]

I posted this in the other forum, but for those interested, it looks like the team will also be trying to prevent

Spoiler

Caitlin from becoming Killer Frost.  I didn't spot this myself, but apparently in the trailer you can see some reports in the news clip on the Star Labs museum, Killer Frost being on the loose, Joe West being honored, and someone getting a book deal.

I put it under a spoiler tag even though it's in the trailer, because you have to zoom/really pay particular attention to see it.

[CabotCove]

Quote

And I will say that I myself have only recently become enlightened about this as well.

? 

Edited December 22, 2016 by HeroLeague

[tv echo]

How is Barry going into the future to save Iris any different from him going into the past to save his mother?  He's still acting for his own selfish purposes, regardless of possible ramifications on other people's lives.  Yes, I understand that it's only one possible future, but changing this particular future could affect other people as well, and not necessarily for the better. And yes, it's arguable that it's not entirely selfish since he's saving Iris, but the same point could've been made with respect to saving his mother. I thought he learned his lesson with Flashpoint, but he's doing the same thing again. Does future versus past really make it okay? I am genuinely puzzled.

Edited December 22, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Why One Flash Actor May Have Trouble Returning
BY LAURA HURLEY Dec. 21, 2016
http://www.cinemablend.com/television/1603000/why-one-flash-actor-may-have-trouble-returning

Quote

Actor Teddy Sears landed a role on the upcoming Fox series 24: Legacy after finishing his run as Zoom, and he recently explained why he could have some difficulty returning to The Flash:

"It would be a lot of fun to drop back into that world. We'll just have to see if the guys on the other end feel the same way. It sounds like they do, but it's funny - now I belong to Fox, so there's lots of people that would have to give a thumbs up. But I really hope so."

Teddy Sears is currently under contract with Fox for his part on 24: Legacy, so returning to The Flash on The CW isn't quite as simple as Sears hopping a flight to Vancouver to film with Grant Gustin and Co. for a few days. For the time being, Fox would need to lend Sears to The CW if a Zoom return were to happen. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by tv echo

[Chaser]

12 minutes ago, tv echo said:

How is Barry going into the future to save Iris any different from him going into the past to save his mother?  He's still acting for his own selfish purposes, regardless of possible ramifications on other people's lives.  Yes, I understand that it's only one possible future, but changing this particular future could affect other people as well, and not necessarily for the better. And yes, it's arguable that it's not entirely selfish since he's saving Iris, but the same point could've been made with respect to saving his mother. I thought he learned his lesson with Flashpoint, but he's doing the same thing again. Does future versus past really make it okay? I am genuinely puzzled.

He is probably going to save Iris and in the process kill another character. Angst for WestAllen.

I wonder who is the most expendable this season...

[ruby24]

HR, Julian and Joe's girlfriend Cecile. One of those three dies, is my guess.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

How is Barry going into the future to save Iris any different from him going into the past to save his mother?  He's still acting for his own selfish purposes, regardless of possible ramifications on other people's lives.  Yes, I understand that it's only one possible future, but changing this particular future could affect other people as well, and not necessarily for the better. And yes, it's arguable that it's not entirely selfish since he's saving Iris, but the same point could've been made with respect to saving his mother. I thought he learned his lesson with Flashpoint, but he's doing the same thing again. Does future versus past really make it okay? I am genuinely puzzled.

Saving someone from possibly being murdered is selfish? I disagree.

He's not going into the future. The past is history, and anything changed there will affect the present, but the future does not exist yet.

[CooperTV]

18 minutes ago, Trini said:

Saving someone from possibly being murdered is selfish? I disagree.

Barry always happens to be saving his relatives or his girlfriend in those instances. But other people that are not related to him (like Cisco's brother, for example, or Ronnie, or Laurel, or whoever) are off-limits, because changing timeline is suddenly wrong. The fact that The Flash writers want everyone in-show to sympathize with Barry's selfish choices is another thing entirely.

[tv echo]

But that's my question. If saving Iris from being murdered in the future is not selfish, then saving his mother from being murdered in the past is not selfish - yet Barry was considered selfish for Flashpoint.

Also, I thought the point about time travel is that what you change in any time period (past, present, future) has ripples throughout many lives. So if Barry changes the past or the future by saving someone he loves, then that will also affect other lives.  Example: Barry hides Iris away so that she can't be killed, so Savitar kills someone else instead.

Edited December 22, 2016 by tv echo

[Trini]

Barry has unselfishly saved plenty of people not related to him.

Again, the future isn't written; that's actually something he -or anyone else- can change.

[RedVitC]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

How is Barry going into the future to save Iris any different from him going into the past to save his mother?  He's still acting for his own selfish purposes, regardless of possible ramifications on other people's lives.  Yes, I understand that it's only one possible future, but changing this particular future could affect other people as well, and not necessarily for the better. And yes, it's arguable that it's not entirely selfish since he's saving Iris, but the same point could've been made with respect to saving his mother. I thought he learned his lesson with Flashpoint, but he's doing the same thing again. Does future versus past really make it okay? I am genuinely puzzled.

I can think of several reasons why it's different. Now, the Flash (and the flarrowverse in general) is not very consistent with its rules, but:

From the perspective of the future isn't written: Well, the future isn't written yet, it's what you make it. It's in constant flux. The situation is no different from say a character being shown their future in a Christmas future type situation. This is their future if they continue on the path they are on. When the character sees that it leads to a bad ending, they change their behavior/life and the future changes with it. It'd also be the same thing if say Cisco or Caitin found out they were evil in the future. They wouldn't just sit back and say, "oh well, that's that, it was nice knowing all of you, hope I don't kill you". They'd try to make it so they didn't turn evil. Nothing wrong with that. No one is responsible for the entire universe. And shipping aside, I don't think I heard anyone say that either Eddie or Iris where selfish when they got back together in 1.23 despite knowing about the newspaper (or if you follow that thought that it possibly could have undone any future grandchildren)

From the perspective that time wants to be intact/wants to happen: Iris dying is itself a change. Iris didn't die at this point in the other timeline, nor did she die at this point in the timeline before Eobard messed it up by killing Nora. So Iris is not supposed to die at this point. I've seen speculation that the Speedforce deliberately threw Barry to that specific point, because Iris is not supposed to die (time wanting to correct itself). I don't know if I believe that, but it is interesting that he was thrown to that specific moment in time. If Barry and Iris do have speedster offspring, they might have something to do with it. Perhaps one of them was in the Speedforce while the change happened, so they still exist, but the time they're from doesn't.

Also, Savitar himself is a time traveling villain. He's from the future, and was defeated by Barry in the future. He's traveled back in time and is messing with time to change an outcome and to get back what he lost (whatever that is) and to destroy Barry (and his team). So trying to prevent Savitar is not selfish from that perspective either. And it's not just Barry. They're going to try to save everyone from the respective prophecies. The person that falls, the person that betrays and the person that suffers a fate worse than death. No member of the team is going to sit back and accept that they're doomed.

Finally, what is the alternative for all of them? Are they just going to sit back and say, "well, we're just going to let this one die, this one betray us, this one suffer a fate worse than death, because that's what we saw. And even though that future itself is a changed future, it's more valid than the other one it was changed from for some reason, so we're not going to try and change it back. Tough luck."

I remember during S2 reading stuff about how people shouldn't just accept what they know of the future, because you make your own choices and your own future. There's no reason for any of the team members to accept that they're going to lose half the team one way or the other.

Edited December 22, 2016 by RedVitC
clarify

[apinknightmare]

I think there's still some time travel shenanigans for Barry in store - I highly, HIGHLY doubt that he and the team will leave anything to chance, and just assume that they've altered the course of the future without doing some kind of checking (even though it's pointless, since the future can change at any time - but this show is sketchy with its own rules). I also wouldn't be surprised if he ran back to that point in time, saw Savatar with someone else he cares about and not Iris, and then he gets all angsty because he checks the byline in Gideon's weird future paper, and either Iris's name still isn't on there, or she's no longer Iris West-Allen. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

I think the major difference between going in the past & changing a death vs going into the future to save someone from dying is that the future is not set and is in flux. What BA does may forever change time but it doesn't unravel the past & present like going back in time does. In some ways it might not be scientific, but similar to throwing a stone in water the waves ripple outward. So if u go back in time those ripples are also forward the only problem is those years have already existed which why it unravels existing reality. 

Both actions are selfish but because the future is not set it provides a little more leeway to not be seen as an entirely selfish move. Because you are influencing the future not entirely changing it for personal reasons.

As for the damseling. It doesn't generally bother me if the character has been allowed to be more than just a damsel prop. Flash has not done great by Iris and allowed her character to be more than a prop in the past 3 seasons. I think that's where the damdeling becomes frustrating for me.  I would love to see her have her own actual stroyline that is not about her boyfriend or her brother and I would like that not to be a damsel SL. But at least she's not being forgotten this year like in previous seasons. 

Personally, my guess is that BA will go into the future cause some unforseen complications while saving IW and that is what leads to the WestAllen break of s4. It's basic TV law (& flarrowverse is no longer a rulebreaker) that a couple cannot remain together happily for too long. So something needs to break them, BAs misactions are perfect stimulus. Just enough manpain blended with hero complexing.

[apinknightmare]

Barry says in the promo that they have to figure out the events leading up to Iris's death - and that if they change one of them, that'll stop it from happening. The future isn't set in stone, but it's not as if Barry and Iris are just gonna go about life and do whatever and hope it turns out for the best, and the whole Savatar killing her thing doesn't happen. They are actively trying to figure out which thing led to the chain of events that ended with her death, and are purposely going to do something differently at that point. He should know from, oh...every experience he has with fucking with time - and he has a lot of it - that changing one thing often changes others, and not always for the good. So...I don't see how the scenario presented in the promo isn't selfish? 

I mean, it's not a value judgment on whether I think Iris should live or die. I like her! And surely Barry can't just allow her to die. But if they're going to keep putting him in these types of situations where he is actively messing with the timeline to benefit his own life and save the people he loves while allowing who even knows what to happen to other people to achieve that end, they need to stop with the Flash Days and the cups of coffee named after him at Jitters. He ain't that guy. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by apinknightmare

[LeighAn]

23 hours ago, RedVitC said:

Yeah, the reaction on my timeline after the new trailer is (besides flailing) mostly relief that Iris is allowed to cry and be vulnerable and that she doesn't have to be strong all the time or the 'strong black woman who doesn't need a man'. (edited to make clearer that this is the reaction I see on my timeline after the trailer).

This is not really the place for this topic, so I'll point to this article ( Why It Matters When Women of Color Play Love Interests) that I posted on The Flash forums a while back because it mentioned Iris. It doesn't go deeply into the issue, but it brings up some of the points you mention here, why it's different/important for a woman of color to be the love interest, and protected etc.

Yeah, the one time Iris was kidnapped, back in S1, she was the one to give the finishing punch. And when they were hostages, she was the one to save them.

I see no issue with Iris being given vulnerability and complexity to her character but my next question is whether Iris is going to receive the same barrage of ugly abuse that Felicity has recieved during season 3 of Arrow when she was allowed to cry and be vunerable or will the fact that Iris has a comic canon moniker protect her from that toxic sexist element? 

Im all for women not being treated as one thing or being defined by one trait. If it's okay for Barry or Oliver or Diggle to have these big emotional vunerable moments where they are crying big soppy man tears and some male reviewer or a male fan in a comment section talks how powerful and moving and sensational those moments were then women characters like Laurel and Felicity and Caitlyn and Iris should be allowed to have the same big vunerable crying moments with out being derided or called wet mops, blamed for dragging the show down, being lesser characters and too emotional and ruining the show with their drama and my favourite called "polarising" from the same male reviewers and male fans in comment sections and yet that's the A typical response in FlarrowverseArrowverse.

It happened to Laurel in season 2, it happened to Felicity in season 3-4 I'm not hugely familiar with the Flash fandom but I've seen some unkind things said about Iris and Caitlyn so it'll be interesting to see whether Iris receives the same hostile backlash. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by LeighAn

[ruby24]

4 hours ago, kismet said:

Personally, my guess is that BA will go into the future cause some unforseen complications while saving IW and that is what leads to the WestAllen break of s4. It's basic TV law (& flarrowverse is no longer a rulebreaker) that a couple cannot remain together happily for too long. So something needs to break them, BAs misactions are perfect stimulus. Just enough manpain blended with hero complexing.

We'll see. I do think they will be married at some point though, since that's the big thing about the comics couple. Plus their speedster descendants that I know the show will want to bring into the mix from the future (for sure we'll see Bart Allen and the Tornado Twins eventually).

They probably have room for one break-up before marriage, but I can't imagine the show not having them get married. And not just in the series finale or something- I feel certain they will be a married couple during the show.

[statsgirl]

It probably will depend on how long the show goes on.   Generally couples have to get married by about season 6 or the shippers get too annoyed.  On the other hand, these EPs have shown they're willing to screw up Oliver and Felicity  on the way to the altar and completely reset them so why not Barry and Iris?  They're proud of not sticking to comic book canon

The problem I see with  bringing in future descendants is that it means that they won't be able to mess with the time line again, and there's nothing that show likes more than messing with the timeline, even more than it likes making Barry cry.

[Trini]

Barry and Iris have only been dating for a few months and they are already moving in together, so I can see them getting married sooner rather than later.

All TV couples will have some type of drama, but I don't think they will reset Barry and Iris after they stalled them for two seasons already. They've never been on the same trajectory as Oliver and Felicity.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Trini

[Chaser]

Huh. I don't watch Flash, but based off of what I've heard, they sound like they are following a similar timeline. Officially together in the third season (I'm ignoring S1 of Arrow because they were wrapping up their original intention), have perfect couple move in quickly, put female love interest in mortal danger in MSF.

Im actually expecting them to break up in episode 15. Also due to a convoluted mess that doesn't make sense and is totally the guy's fault.

I do think WestAllen will be married at some point (they will probably get a big 100th Crossover wedding) but I also think it's TV. On the CW.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Chaser

[Proteus]

IA. I know many think that Westallen will remain untouched and from this point forward their story will be all about being a happy couple and making babies and they will be together till the final episode, but this is a CW show. 

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

It probably will depend on how long the show goes on.   Generally couples have to get married by about season 6 or the shippers get too annoyed.  On the other hand, these EPs have shown they're willing to screw up Oliver and Felicity  on the way to the altar and completely reset them so why not Barry and Iris?  They're proud of not sticking to comic book canon

I can't agree with this. I think the Arrow producers caught major hell for screwing up the Black Canary character so badly, and thereby having to kill her off and essentially toss the GA/BC relationship, and that's exactly why the Flash producers are trying so hard to keep Barry and Iris on track.

Arrow has total freedom to do whatever they want with O/F (break them up and delay it forever, etc) precisely because they're not canon. But I think The Flash is trying much harder to stay true to their canon relationship, and that's why I think they will be married on the show ultimately (within the next two seasons is my guess).

Also, they just moved in together and got the new set for their place and everything (well, they're recycling the one from Arrow, but whatever), so I actually don't think they're breaking up this season.

[Trini]

52 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Huh. I don't watch Flash, but based off of what I've heard, they sound like they are following a similar timeline. Officially together in the third season (I'm ignoring S1 of Arrow because they were wrapping up their original intention), have perfect couple move in quickly, put female love interest in mortal danger in MSF.

Didn't Oliver and Felicity only get together at the very end of Season 3? I don't think that's the same. On The Flash, in Seasons 1 & 2, Barry and Iris had already had other love interests, and admitted their feelings for each other. Not to mention they already had a close relationship when the show started.

52 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Im actually expecting them to break up in episode 15. Also due to a convoluted mess that doesn't make sense and is totally the guy's fault.

Because that's only how long Olicity lasted? By mid-season 4, Arrow had already planted the seed for their break-up; there's been no indication of that on The Flash. Maybe something will happen around the end of the season; episode 15 is too soon. In any case, edible hats will be ready:

;-)

40 minutes ago, Proteus said:

IA. I know many think that Westallen will remain untouched and from this point forward their story will be all about being a happy couple and making babies and they will be together till the final episode, but this is a CW show. 

Like I said, I think they will have drama, but unlike Olicity, I think it will come from outside the relationship. --> Savitar targeting Iris. (I don't think they will have any babies on the show, but they've already referenced the Tornado Twins and grandchildren a couple times, so....)

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Barry and Iris have only been dating for a few months and they are already moving in together, so I can see them getting married sooner rather than later.

Oliver and Felicity moved in together as soon as they started dating, or rather they went on a trip together and lived together through a public proposal and wedding planning until the show suddenly broke them up for a stupid reason.

I think one of the biggest barriers in terms of keeping Barry and Iris together from now on is that Kreisburg can't write a mature adult romance.

Quote

Didn't Oliver and Felicity only get together at the very end of Season 3? I don't think that's the same. On The Flash, in Seasons 1 & 2, Barry and Iris had already had other love interests, and admitted their feelings for each other.

The Olicity ship started at the beginning of season 2, and by 2x15 it was clear they had feelings for each other.  Even the midseason finale of s2 had a shot of Felicity during Slade's "corrupt those he loves" monologue. The whole of season 3 was Oliver in love with Felicity but feeling I can't agree with this. I think the Arrow producers caught major hell for screwing up the Black Canary character so badly, and thereby having to kill her off and essentially toss the GA/BC relationship, and that's exactly why the Flash producers are trying so hard to keep Barry and Iris on track.that he couldn't be with her and still do his crusade.

Quote

I can't agree with this. I think the Arrow producers caught major hell for screwing up the Black Canary character so badly, and thereby having to kill her off and essentially toss the GA/BC relationship, and that's exactly why the Flash producers are trying so hard to keep Barry and Iris on track.

I  think the problem with Laurel's character was a combination of casting and the toxic story of Oliver screwing one sister when he was supposed to be in a committed relationship with the other.  (I get the feeling the Kreisburg was a part of that decision.)  I don't think the Arrow EPs caught hell for screwing up the Black Canary, I think they had been trying to get rid of her or if not, minimize the character since mid season one because she wasn't working for the show.

I think The Flash is more on comic book track because AK likes comic book canon more than MG or GB do (he's the one who thought that Laurel wasn't working because she wasn't in fish nets yet).

As has been said a number of times, most of the viewers on the TV shows don't read the comics and don't give a fig about making sure the comic canon is followed.  (Personally, The Flash screwed up WestAllen for me in season 1 when Iris/Eddie reached a level of maturity that Barry/Iris has yet to reach.  I just can't root for Barry/Iris when he's still barely adolescent and she has to constantly give him pep talks.)

Edited December 23, 2016 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I can't agree with this. I think the Arrow producers caught major hell for screwing up the Black Canary character so badly, and thereby having to kill her off and essentially toss the GA/BC relationship, and that's exactly why the Flash producers are trying so hard to keep Barry and Iris on track.

Arrow has total freedom to do whatever they want with O/F (break them up and delay it forever, etc) precisely because they're not canon. But I think The Flash is trying much harder to stay true to their canon relationship, and that's why I think they will be married on the show ultimately (within the next two seasons is my guess).

Also, they just moved in together and got the new set for their place and everything (well, they're recycling the one from Arrow, but whatever), so I actually don't think they're breaking up this season.

I think you are right about the Flash producers being hyper aware of making sure they make Iris and Barry - the canon couple - work because canon flopped on Arrow, but the problem is, they have them working now and so that IMO, like with Oliver and Felicity, is the point where they will come in and screw it up just for dramatic purposes.  Not forever, but for the stall.  Once they get them married, then I'd say they are safe because of canon, but they aren't there yet.  

It doesn't deeply matter that WestAllen in the comics was relatively drama free.  They are going to put their own spin on it just like they did with why Iris was in his life even if they weren't dating.  Being on TV and telling their story means  there are different rules and one of the TV rules (and I agree it's a dumb one) is that every couple that is happy has to break up and not just a one or two episode break ,but a real break up.  I don't see that changing for Iris and Barry.  Sure, it might be outside reasons, but I expect it nontheless.  

What they might get though is time broken up with neither Barry or Iris trying to move on.  Maybe, just maybe, they'd make that concession to the history of the characters.  Maybe.  

But yeah, so Barry and Iris are living together now with tragedy already looming.  Their clock is ticking.  My money is still on Barry breaking it off because he thinks it will keep Iris safe since I don't think Iris will ever be allowed to be really pissed off enough to break up with Barry even if he deserves it, lol. 

[CooperTV]

12 minutes ago, Trini said:

Because that's only how long Olicity lasted? By mid-season 4, Arrow had already planted the seed for their break-up; there's been no indication of that on The Flash.

Arrowverse, and The Flash, Arrow and Supergirl are prime examples of that, is full of bad CW romances or bad handling of established romantic relationships.And from the past 2.5 seasons of The Flash it's not clear to me Westallen will have a smooth sailing because it's both a classic bad CW romance and it's written by people that only care for melodrama, not for consistency.

 

15 minutes ago, Trini said:

Like I said, I think they will have drama, but unlike Olicity, I think it will come from outside the relationship.

"Outside of relationship" sounds to me like some people control these characters and make them do things, almost. Those people are also called screenwriters.

[Mellowyellow]

Eh at least Barry won't ever have an illegitimate demon spawn lurking in the shadows.

Yes I'm very bitter. Very very very bitter.

[ruby24]

Well, another possible reason they could stay together is that I actually don't think that The Flash focuses NEARLY as much on the relationship as Arrow did with O/F. In fact, I personally don't think WestAllen has had enough focus. 

I mean, I don't know if this is their intention, but it could be that they want to treat them as solid and not focus on them so that they don't feel like they have to give them too much relationship drama and can just have them be together while the show focuses on the action, villains, etc.

I honestly don't think there's been enough romance, but I guess they think the Flash audience doesn't care as much about that as they do the other stuff.