Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Sakura12]

When Barry and Iris are both calling Joe, dad when talking to each other. It sounds like incest. 

[Primal Slayer]

When people get married they sometimes call their In-laws mom/dad. They both know they arent related and that Barry was just a friend who fell on hard times.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It sounds like incest. 

There's that and the fact that the article we've been discussing (which @dtissagirl made the joke about) actually referred to Barry and Iris's "brother-sister dynamic" here: 

Quote

But, significantly, the one change to the narrative we do know about hinges on Iris. She’s not on speaking terms with her father, Joe, which may mean that the Barry and Iris’s brother-sister dynamic is still off the table.

No one needs to be quoting incest definitions, goodness. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

Barry and Iris are not married. 

[calliope1975]

I don't know that I find Iris/Barry's relationship incestual, but I completely understand those who do. Once again, TIIC badly screwed up the backstory of the main canon pairing. It's their own fault if viewers find it skeevy. 

[ComicFan777]

Barry and Iris were raised together in the same house since Barry was 10...so for like 15 years.
I think Joe refers to both of them as his children and Iris has mentioned in passing that Barry is like a brother to her.
I always felt that Barry and Iris are basically foster siblings.

[apinknightmare]

12 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I don't know that I find Iris/Barry's relationship incestual, but I completely understand those who do. Once again, TIIC badly screwed up the backstory of the main canon pairing. It's their own fault if viewers find it skeevy. 

It's also a pretty strange thing to bring up in a Vanity Fair article when talking about the main pairing. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Barry and Iris were raised together in the same house since Barry was 10...so for like 15 years.
I think Joe refers to both of them as his children and Iris has mentioned in passing that Barry is like a brother to her.
I always felt that Barry and Iris are basically foster siblings.

Foster siblings, I can see; but they're still not actually related. Iris and Barry have never been referred to as sister and brother, though. Iris has described Barry as her 'best friend'.

[dtissagirl]

I have a foster brother who was taken in by my family when he was 8 and I was 7. He was never officially adopted -- he has a mother who's in and out of his life -- but he lived with us, we grew up as siblings. I cannot watch The Fosters either. I find it extremely icky when fiction put kids in foster-siblings situations, and then make it romantic.

But beyond my personal feelings about it, when a show needs to actively write its main romantic pairing in a way that's designed to revert the foster-sibling situation, that tells me that they're aware they started out from a screwy background.

And it's not like they haven't done fucked up romantic background before, I mean, Arrow can teach a lesson in how NOT to position the backstory of the main romantic pairing. But otoh, they do seem to know how foster-siblings relationships work on Supergirl, so maybe it IS Kreisberg who's the icky one.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

But otoh, they do seem to know how foster-siblings relationships work on Supergirl, so maybe it IS Kreisberg who's the icky one.

I just want to know whose idea it was to have Iris - shortly after we meet her and right before Barry's about to confess his feels - tell Barry they're "kind of like brother and sister." FIRE YOURSELF. Repeatedly calling him her friend would've been enough, writers. 

VC Andrews fans, all of them. 

[statsgirl]

There is a strong aversion to incest in humans (and some other creatures) because it screws up the gene pool   That's why you're not supposed to have sexual feelings towards someone you were brought up with.

I find the sister swapping and season 1 brother swapping on Arrow less icky than two children who grew up as siblings since they were eleven and call the same guy 'Dad' having sex.  The Flash really screwed that up.  What they should have done was have Barry move in and out of Joe's house to make a demarcation that Barry is not actually Iris's brother. But that would have messed up the "Joe is Barry's true dad" which is the relationship that the show cares about.

18 hours ago, Trini said:

1) Supergirl,
2) Flash,
.
.
3) Legends
4) Felicity Smoak

:)

I know you put a smiley face there but I found this offensive, especially following an episode where Felicity had precisely 20 seconds of time that wasn't about Oliver, Laurel, the new team or the villain. (NO ONE other than Diggle had less time spent on them in the episode and Laurel, who is dead, had a great deal more.) I come here to avoid the kind of mean-spirited comments that are the status quo at other sites.  Let's be civil to each other in discussions, it makes life so much better.

7 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

It's been one ep. Has the problem of Flash underutilizing female characters, especially Iris, really been solved? I mean I would love for it to be the case, but I feel the article is a tad premature. Sounds more like a "this is how you should think of Iris" piece commissioned by CW PR. 

I think the fact that in Flashpoint once again, Iris' only role was to be a cheerleader for Barry and now Wally, and Caitlin relegated to a pediatrician while Cisco was a genius billionaire with a gorgeous woman as arm candy pretty much shows that the problem hasn't been solved.

Arrow and Supergirl do much better on female characters.  On LOT, Hawkgirl was a fail but Sara was worth five male characters on the show.

Edited October 9, 2016 by statsgirl

[Trini]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I know you put a smiley face there but I found this offensive, especially following an episode where Felicity had precisely 20 seconds of time that wasn't about Oliver, Laurel, the new team or the villain. (NO ONE other than Diggle had less time spent on them in the episode and Laurel, who is dead, had a great deal more.) I come here to avoid the kind of mean-spirited comments that are the status quo at other sites.  Let's be civil to each other in discussions, it makes life so much better.

I'm not sure where you think I was being uncivil. Like others, I was giving my own ranking of the shows. I put "Felicity Smoak" because she's the only character I like from Arrow. Sorry, you didn't get the snark.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Trini

[Thundercatmary]

20 minutes ago, Trini said:

I'm not sure where you think I was being uncivil. Like others, I was giving my own ranking of the shows. I put "Felicity Smoak" because she's the only character I like from Arrow. Sorry, you didn't get the snark.

Oh see i misunderstood also, these things happen though on boards etc. :)

Really the only show I watch regularly is Arrow, though I have watched some of LOT since I love Sara and I also think the upcoming season of LOT looks good and will probably watch.

[Starfish35]

I haven't watched the season premieres of either The Flash or Arrow (have lots of RL issues I'm dealing with at the moment), but my ranking would probably be, just going off what I've read:

LoT > Supergirl > Arrow > The Flash.

I know LoT isn't necessarily a good show, but it entertains me without some of the frustrations I have with the other shows.  Sara's my favorite Flarrowverse character, and they got rid of the Hawks and Savage, thankfully.  And the rumors about Rip being gone for a portion of the season don't really bother me because he's never been a character I cared all that much about.  

Supergirl gets second place just by default, frankly.  It's a fun show, but it can be a little too cute/cheesy at times for me.  I thought their season finale was a hot mess.  But I'm intrigued by the spoilers I've read for the upcoming season.  It could be really good or it could be a disaster.   I'm not heavily invested either way, so I guess I'm not as stressed about it. Lol.  

Arrow.....I'm getting to the end of my patience with Arrow.  I'm sure they've improved some parts of it, but I'm just not here for the constant WWLLD (especially when it doesn't make any sense with what we knew of the character) or the whole New Black Canary thing.  As far as I'm concerned the only one who should be taking up the Black Canary name is Sara, and I'm never going to change my mind on that, so if finding the new Black Canary is going to be a major story thread for the season, it's better for my blood pressure if I just step away now.  (I'm also concerned about how they're going to deal with Felicity and Havenrock - I have no confidence, based on what I've seen in past seasons, that they will deal with it well.)

The Flash - I loved this show in the first season, but it's been a mess ever since the first season finale, and it doesn't sound like the season premiere addressed any of the issues with Barry's behavior.  I'm just tired of watching the show destroy a character I used to enjoy, not to mention their issues with their female characters, so....I think maybe it's better that I step away from this one also, at least for the time being.  

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I'm not sure where you think I was being uncivil. Like others, I was giving my own ranking of the shows. I put "Felicity Smoak" because she's the only character I like from Arrow. Sorry, you didn't get the snark.

Lol, I thought you hated Felicity so much that you skipped mentioning  Arrow and were saying the worst of the worst was Felicity. 

For me, Arrow is my "it" show.  Even as maddening as it is.  It's the show I spend 75% of my forum time on and that other 25% kind of happened accidentally because the Flash, Lot, and Supergirl's connection to Arrow. 

So it's Arrow on it's own shelf.  And then the next three kind of bunched together on the same level but for different reasons.

LoT can be so much fun when it wasn't maudlin Hawk crap.  Supergirl sucks in the shipping but excels in a number of relationships and is finding it's footing story telling wise.  The Flash can be super frustrating until I remind myself I just don't care enough about the characters to sustain that level of frustration and then it goes back to being just something to roll my eyes at but still find worth watching. 

In an odd way, while Arrow is always at the top of the list, it's a lot easier to watch any of the other three. Flash cause I don't deeply care, LoT because I'm looking forward to the fun, Supergirl because minus the love interests, I do love watching the relationships and so far Supergirl really is written as a good guy not like Barry who it's hard to prove anymore. 

I have a lot more invested in Arrow so it has the power to make me so much more upset, but I'm ok right now.  I think it will be fine.  Eventually. 

Crosses fingers.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lol, I thought you hated Felicity so much that you skipped mentioning  Arrow and were saying the worst of the worst was Felicity. 

Nope, the opposite! I only got into Arrow in Season 2 because another family member was watching it; but I wasn't really invested in it. And then I just couldn't take the show seriously after Season 3.

[statsgirl]

Sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought you were complaining that there was too much Felicity and the show was only about her (like that site that will not be named).

[CabotCove]

Quote

I know you put a smiley face there but I found this offensive, especially following an episode where Felicity had precisely 20 seconds of time that wasn't about Oliver, Laurel, the new team or the villain. (NO ONE other than Diggle had less time spent on them in the episode and Laurel, who is dead, had a great deal more.) I come here to avoid the kind of mean-spirited comments that are the status quo at other sites.  Let's be civil to each other in discussions, it makes life so much better.

Negative comments on a character are not disallowed on the site, as far as im aware. So whats the problem if something negative was to be said about Felicity? If there is a new ban, then Im all for it as long as it extends to all characters in this universe. 

Edited October 10, 2016 by DCLeague

[RedVitC]

Hi everyone, I posted once before last year (?) and then felt too nervous to post more, lol. If I post more it’ll probably be on the Flash board, but I wanted to say thank you to those who welcomed me back then and for the replies!

About some of the things I’ve read here:

-Barry and Iris were best friends before he moved in with the Wests (pilot, at Nora’s crime scene: My daughter is best friends with her kid). I expect that is the reason Joe took Barry in in the first place. Iris’ pre-existing relationship with Barry is not somehow overwritten by Barry’s relationship with Joe.

-Barry had a crush on Iris before he moved in with them (ep1.9: I had to go live with the girl I had a crush on).

-Iris never saw Barry as her brother. First of all, the aforementioned pre-existing friendship, and as to the much tossed around brother and sister quote, it literally continues with: 'we’re not brother and sister’. She was trying to say, in an admittedly ham-fisted way, that she knows Barry talking about girls with her is weird because he’s a boy and she’s a girl.

Barry’s mother was murdered when he was 11, he lived with the Wests until he went to college at 18 and didn’t move back in (as far as we know) until s1 ep 10 when Iris moved out. So they lived in the same house for about 7 years.

People will feel what they feel, of course, I can only feel sorry for Candice the few times she has had to, gracefully, shut down this line of thinking.

Anyway, I love them together (~clutches OTP protectively~)

In other news, the Legends trailer looks fun. I love time travel stuff. I do wonder if we’re eventually going to see the ripple effect from all the things they do in the past, because they keep doing pretty major things that you’d expect would have some effect on the present.

[ComicFan777]

I think the quote from Flash pilot from Iris to Barry is:
"Even though we pretty much grew up in the same house together and we're kind of like brother and sister, because we're not brother and sister, it can get really weird and awkward to talk to me about girls."

I took this as Iris saying that they are technically not brother/sister by blood, but Iris considers them like brother/sister so it can be awkward to talk about girls, but I guess it depends on interpretation.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ComicFan777

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, DCLeague said:

Negative comments on a character are not disallowed on the site, as far as im aware. So whats the problem if something negative was to be said about Felicity? If there is a new ban, then Im all for it as long as it extends to all characters in this universe. 

I think the misinterpretation was that Trini was referring to Arrow as "Felicity and Friends," which is a derogatory way that people who hate Felicity refer to Arrow. It would be like one of the people on this board who hates Barry going over on The Flash site and calling it "Flush." So, I'm pretty sure that @statsgirl wasn't implying that no one should have negative comments about any particular character, just that maybe we can avoid that kind of talk when referencing the shows. 

[Sakura12]

I see it more as a foster brother and sister situation. While it's not incest because they are not related, it's still gives me pause. Of course the biggest pause for me is I think Iris deserves better than Barry. He's screwed with her life because he wanted to make it better for himself. For me it seems like he's in love with the idea of her, not the person she is. Flash isn't showing me any reason for Iris and Barry to be together, other than because comics. I don't go with that, I'm not reading the comics to see a different Barry and Iris relationship and just put it into this show. That's not how story telling works. 

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I took this as Iris saying that they are technically not brother/sister by blood, but Iris considers them like brother/sister so it can be awkward to talk about girls, but I guess it depends on interpretation.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think the idea was to fully show just how much Iris didn't think of Barry in a romantic way while reminding the audience that hey, they aren't brother and sister. That way when Iris finally came around to romantically loving Barry it seems like all that much more of a feat for Barry. I just feel like you shouldn't ever have one person in a pairing ever refer to the other in a sibling type way, and if you do it once, learn your lesson and don't EVER do it again. But they did do it again - at least once that I remember - I'm pretty certain a VotW referred to Iris as Barry's sister (to Barry) when she was in trouble at some point last year. DON'T DO THAT.

[Mellowyellow]

I haven't read the comics so no idea if they grew up together in the comics but I have watched A LOT of asian series where the guy and girl grew up together and fell in love. It is like a major trope for asian drama so I really don't see what the fuss is! The Flash scenario is very tame compared to what I've seen! 

ETA: There is this famous Korean Tragedy where they were raised as brother and sister for the first 10 years of their lives (baby switched in hospital! Long story). Anyway they grew up, fell in love, we Asians watched the series and cried and wailed over the tragic plot. My hubby who had a much more western upbringing watched the series with me and was like "WTF! They were practically siblings ewwwww."

Edited October 10, 2016 by Mellowyellow

[tarotx]

I once read a Gothic romance book where the 16-year-old girl falls in love with her dead father's best friend who she thinks killed her father (though it turned out her mother did it). And they get together at the end. Just because it's out there doesn't mean people aren't going to think it's icky if they think it's icky. 

[Starfish35]

Quote

I haven't read the comics so no idea if they grew up together in the comics

IIRC in the comics they met in college.  But I might not be remembering right.  I do know they didn't grow up together though.  

Personally, I'm pretty sure that them growing up together in the show was due to the writers wanting Joe to have that parental relationship with Barry, and they didn't really think through how that might affect the Barry/Iris relationship.  They probably thought "oh no big deal! Plot twist!" Lol.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Starfish35

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, these EPs don't seem to put a whole lot of thought into the conception stage with their LI characters, especially in terms of how they relate to the love interests themselves (see Laurel and Ray for other characters whose dynamics with their intended LIs were poorly-thought-out--and not saying that being a love interest is ALL these characters are intended to be, just talking about that aspect in particular). For now, I passively ship Westallen because I love Iris and I resent the EPs for not doing better by her, so I certainly don't want them to continue doing worse by lessening her role and throwing more LIs at Barry. But I do hope their dynamic, once they are together, allows Iris to feel normal human feelings when Barry screws up--and maybe even hold him accountable for his dumbass actions!--because the show really lost me in S1 when she was only allowed to be mad for about 1/3 of an episode after a season's worth of buildup re: the secret. And that's just one instance (it happens with both Barry and Joe, to be clear). Anyway, personally, all of that stuff bugs me more than the brother-sister thing because that's something I can just shake my head and laugh at the EPs about at this point, but I just don't like the unequal dynamic of WA (or Barry/Anyone, to be more accurate).

[CabotCove]

Quote

I think the misinterpretation was that Trini was referring to Arrow as "Felicity and Friends," which is a derogatory way that people who hate Felicity refer to Arrow. It would be like one of the people on this board who hates Barry going over on The Flash site and calling it "Flush." So, I'm pretty sure that @STATSGIRL wasn't implying that no one should have negative comments about any particular character, just that maybe we can avoid that kind of talk when referencing the shows. 

OK. If its enforced all round, I can get behind that?

 

Quote

Anyway they grew up, fell in love, we Asians watched the series and cried and wailed over the tragic plot. My hubby who had a much more western upbringing watched the series with me and was like "WTF! They were practically siblings ewwwww."

Lol

Edited October 10, 2016 by DCLeague

[RedVitC]

The last thing I’ll say about the sibling thing: Iris has made it a point to say 'my' dad. As in: ‘My dad is going to be so happy to see you’ (pilot). 'Why is my dad mad at you?' (1.02)

I can only speak for myself, but there’s plenty to love about Barry and Iris just watching the show, from the top of my head a few things I like:

I love that Iris was the first and for a long time only person that believed Barry about his father's innocence. Belief in the impossible is a big thing they share. Not even Joe believed Barry (I don't blame him for that, but it's still true), and he was quite harsh in the pilot in the way he expressed it. Iris said that Barry was sent to shrink after shrink. I’ve always wondered why they didn’t explore that resentment that must have been there between Joe and Barry more.

I’ve loved Iris’ slow realization of her feelings and they’re not one bit less worthy because it took her a while (though they should have given it more screentime). I love Barry’s steady love for her and that his feelings have remained so strong throughout everything that happened (death, dating other people, constant attacks) that he could tell her ‘I don’t know what this is between us. All I know is you’re everything to me, and you always have been’.

I love that instead of telling her ‘but we kissed at the waterside and you said you'd been thinking about me’ Barry let Iris make her decision on what she was feeling in the moment, even when she confessed she had been thinking about him but couldn’t anymore in 1.21, and he made sure to comfort her about Eddie's disappearance despite what he was feeling. I love that Barry gave Iris that recording of Eddie and didn’t try to take credit for how he arranged it.

Most of all. I just love watching their scenes. I love their chemistry. It’s very intimate, I find it very romantic. Their relationship is beautiful. Best friends to lovers. I love how sweeping their story is. People are always making gifsets for their ships with that one quote ‘I hope that if alternate universes exist, it will still be you and me in the end etc’, but for Barry and Iris it’s actually true. Which is wild.

Their story is quite tragic. They were married in the original timeline. Then Thawne went back in time (136 years) and killed Barry’s mother, potentially erasing their marriage and the children they already had. Basically Barry had to go live with his wife as a child. Despite Thawne’s actions and the changes in both their lives they still found each other romantically. Their story has been about finding each other again from the start.

I’m sure there’s much to criticize about this relationship, especially writing wise, but to me it’s nothing worse than other ships which are liked by me and others both in the Flarrowverse and outside of it. Look Iris is my favorite character, the writers need to do better in giving Iris point of view and focus as a character and reporter, but I think she’s been a pretty terrific character despite it. I can remember specific times I’ve cheered at her actions, no matter how they were picked apart by the internet afterwards (and boy, can people be picky when it comes to Iris and Barry/Iris).

Lastly on the topic of comics: I hadn’t read any Flash comics before the show. I've started reading the new Rebirth stuff because I love Barry/Iris on TV, not the other way around. Most people I follow that ship them don't know, follow or care about the comics at all. Obviously that's just a sample, but I'm betting most people that love them don't love them because they feel they have to. I'm not a stickler for comic canon per se (I like Olicity after all) but knowing the way WOC get treated on TV shows and in fandom, especially when they are also love interests, I'll say that I do find some comfort in the idea that it’s not just that Iris is married to Barry but that Iris is the matriarch of the Flash family (though there are no guarantees of course). They have speedster children with their own stories and grandchildren with their own popular stories. Bart Allen in particular is pretty popular, I’m sure he’ll pop up at some point. To me keeping this part about the characters is not even about canon, it’s about responsibility when you take a character like Iris an change her race: Making Iris West black, and making a big deal about it in terms of ‘we have great representation! Look at us!' and then turning around and giving that role, that family, those children to another woman, especially a white woman, would be extremely offensive on so many levels.

This is only my third post, so I hope it doesn't feel like I'm just barging in your house with my long winded opinions. I've tried my best to be respectful of everyone's opinions and feelings, but let me know if I haven't. 

[Mellowyellow]

Quick question:

I'm watching Young Justice (the cartoon) and I love the Robin in there.  He's really chilled, fun and sensible.

Is the Dick Grayson version of Robin always like that?

Also is Evelyn (newbie on Arrow) meant to be Artemis?

[Delphi]

Eh, season one Robin is essentially a mash up of Dick and Tim.   But yeah, Dick Robin was pretty fun and excitable. 

And yes. 

[Starfish35]

They're giving her the code name of Artemis, but I don't think she's supposed to resemble the Young Justice character (who is awesome, btw - she's my favorite YJ character). 

[Trini]

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Flash isn't showing me any reason for Iris and Barry to be together, other than because comics.

I also haven't read the comics; but the show has shown that they both love each other -- even though the writing does do a disservice to them half the time (::SIGH::).

[calliope1975]

I won't discuss Supergirl here because she has her own forum, but I did want to say I loved Superman. In 5 seconds, he was more of Clark Kent/Supes to me than anything in the DCCU. I look forward to seeing more. 

[Delphi]

37 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I won't discuss Supergirl here because she has her own forum, but I did want to say I loved Superman. In 5 seconds, he was more of Clark Kent/Supes to me than anything in the DCCU. I look forward to seeing more. 

Seconded.   He did very well in the role.  He really managed to channel a lot of the animated Superman into the role. 

My MVP award has to go to Calista and her portrayal of Cat Grant.   She's the best. 

[BkWurm1]

I was really surprised how HAPPY I got watching Supergirl.  Neither Arrow or The Flash has managed to accomplish that in a long time.  It was kind of a soft reboot.  I'd encourage people to check it out. 

[calliope1975]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was really surprised how HAPPY I got watching Supergirl.  Neither Arrow or The Flash has managed to accomplish that in a long time.  It was kind of a soft reboot.  I'd encourage people to check it out. 

Yep. It was fun. I didn't feel angsty or roll my eyes at dumb decisions. I thoroughly enjoyed myself and am excited for next week. 

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, RedVitC said:

The last thing I’ll say about the sibling thing: Iris has made it a point to say 'my' dad. As in: ‘My dad is going to be so happy to see you’ (

 

But she's also on too many occasions said Dad's back at the house or Dad's in trouble or Dad's looking for you. So I get why that initially made some people uncomfortable.  I think that's less of a problem now since Iris and Barry's bonding time with Joe is kept very separate (to the point where it is embarrassing how much more Joe seems to love Barry, lol) 

In the very first episode I clung to the line about Barry and Iris being best friends before he moved in with them and that he had a crush on her even back then.  So I completely believe that Barry has never thought of Iris as a sister. 

I'm less sure if Iris thought of Barry as a brother.  I'm inclined to think that she didn't put a label on it.  He was just Barry.  And it probably wasn't until she tired to get him to open up about girls that she tried to put a label on it and "kinda brother and sister" was a way to explain it. 

I don't really care about that anymore except to mock the writers for letting it go there.  They should have stuck with calling them best friends and nothing else no matter how they grew up.  Which leads me to what I consider a bigger problem. 

Quote

Most of all. I just love watching their scenes. I love their chemistry. It’s very intimate, I find it very romantic. Their relationship is beautiful. Best friends to lovers. I love how sweeping their story is. People are always making gifsets for their ships with that one quote ‘I hope that if alternate universes exist, it will still be you and me in the end etc’, but for Barry and Iris it’s actually true. Which is wild.

We barely ever see them be best friends.  They spend lots of time now with the case of the week and we've seen them hanging at home together with Joe or at family dinners.  In season one, Barry dropped by and got coffee a lot.  But have they ever hung out just together as buds?  The closest is in the Pilot when they were waiting in line.  The next closest is when they've double dated (kind of) with Felicity.  Oh and that one time that Eddie and Iris kind of crashed Barry's date with... (blanking on her name)  Otherwise, these two best friends don't act like best friends.  Huge fail.  Cause I LOVE that kind of romance.  

I don't ship against Iris and Barry but I'm forever wishing for them to better written.  In the AU's they totally work but in the real time line?  Well lets hope they really are going to write Iris better. 

I also have a different reaction to the meant to be aspect of their romance.  Until they show why THIS couple works, I don't care about any other version working, at least as incentive to get me to root for Earth 1 Barry.  I was loving Flashpoint Iris and Barry UNTIL she skipped actually getting to know him and was just in love with him because DESTINY!   

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I'm not a stickler for comic canon per se (I like Olicity after all) but knowing the way WOC get treated on TV shows and in fandom, especially when they are also love interests, I'll say that I do find some comfort in the idea that it’s not just that Iris is married to Barry but that Iris is the matriarch of the Flash family (though there are no guarantees of course). They have speedster children with their own stories and grandchildren with their own popular stories. Bart Allen in particular is pretty popular, I’m sure he’ll pop up at some point. To me keeping this part about the characters is not even about canon, it’s about responsibility when you take a character like Iris an change her race: Making Iris West black, and making a big deal about it in terms of ‘we have great representation! Look at us!' and then turning around and giving that role, that family, those children to another woman, especially a white woman, would be extremely offensive on so many levels.

I don't think there is any reason to worry that they'd abandon WestAllen as endgame.  Candice the actress and Iris the character are pretty well liked as far as I can tell by not just the viewers but lots of reviewers as well. (I only make that point to say that she's not a polarizing character - there's no outside reason they'd write her out)  It seems to me the problems expressed aren't with Iris so much as what we aren't getting with Iris. 

I'm just always so frustrated that they keep insisting on telling me Barry and Iris should be together for all these reasons and I'm still waiting to see them be this best friend pairing rather than Iris constantly propping Barry and Barry kind of constantly screwing with her life.  I exaggerate some but I'm really hoping this season she and Barry will have to work on their relationship so I get to see why it's worth this label of epic love.   

I love shipping and I really want to swoon over them, but Barry is so selfish and the show ignores Iris so much it's hard not to remember how great she and Eddie were together. 

Maybe I'm just too annoyed at Barry to want him to get his heart's desire. 

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This is only my third post, so I hope it doesn't feel like I'm just barging in your house with my long winded opinions. I've tried my best to be respectful of everyone's opinions and feelings, but let me know if I haven't. 

Not at all. We like long winded respectful opinions.  I hope you always feel free to share. 

Edited October 11, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Bort]

Too much Flash-centric discussion, bring it around to the topic, please. 

There's a lovely, but lonely, relationships thread in The Flash forum that hasn't been posted in since May. All this Barry/Iris discussion should be going there. 

[tv echo]

Some recent MG tumblr posts on big crossover event, LoT and Vixen...

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slowcookedvig asked:
Have you considered skipping the 4-show crossover? The shared universe has moved far away from Arrow's non-super-powered roots, and I imagine that even two shows must be a logistical nightmare. But 4 plots to align, exposition to explain character relationships, guest stars, filming schedules... I feel bad for all of you, actors, writers, & producers. I know the cross-overs draw audiences (particularly the first time), but the benefits may decrease as the number of shows to juggle grows.
Honestly, we do 23 episodes a year.  That’s a lot of episodes.  I think the show can handle one episode that’s a little outside the norm.

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tatjash asked:
Hi! I don't need that you answer me, I prefer it, I'm shy. But I hope that you read this. Things that I'll love watch in Legends of tomorrow only suggestions: *Alex Kingston visiting Sara and scene with rip (He's her father in dr who); *Cupid and she stalking Mick XD ; *I ship Sara and Rip so... some funny o cute scene, for example, Sara teaching Rip to fight or boxing XD I know, that no happen anything. But suggestions are free. Sorry my english mistakes. Hugs from Spain. Thanks for the shows.
We’d love to get Alex on Legends.
Glad that you ship Rip and Sara.  I think they have chemistry.
Thanks for watching the show!

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fictionaluniversetimelinesblog asked:
How come I can only find Vixen S1E1 on CW Seed, where's the rest of the series?
The first episode of Season 2 drops this Friday.  As for distribution beyond CW Seed, there’s an announcement forthcoming which I don’t have the authority to make here.

[Starfish35]

Supergirl started off with a 1.1.

http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/the-sked-monday-ratings-10-10-2016.html

[manbearpig]

Glad to see Supergirl starting well. I need it to adjust up so it is neck and neck with The Flash, though.

[Starfish35]

Well, Flash adjusted up to a 1.3 last week. But it might be lower this week - we'll see tomorrow.

[manbearpig]

Also interesting that Supergirl's 1.1 on the CW matches Gotham and Lucifer this week. All three of those are above my fave network superhero show, Agents of Shield.

[tv echo]

Edited October 11, 2016 by tv echo

[SmallScreenDiva]

That's not very good for Supergirl, is it? Wasn't it pulling 7 million viewers at CBS toward the end? I mean, I get that CW pulls fewer viewers, but I kinda expected more, maybe 1.4.

I also just noticed that all 4 DCTV shows have been promoting some sort of a reset. Reviewers are calling SG a soft reboot. The Flash has Flashpoint. Arrow's back to basics. And LOT showrunners had talked about relaunching it as more lighthearted and fun.

[Starfish35]

I think it's good. It only dropped 0.2 in the demo from its season finale on CBS, which was 1.3.  That's great for jumping to a network with a much lower viewership. I mean, it dropped about half its viewers, but the demo is what counts, not total viewers, and 3 million viewers is still good for a CW show.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

I watched the sneak peek for Flash and I already love Draco, if only for his disdain towards Barry. Hope they keep it up for a long while and it doesn't get resolved in beers and karaoke in episode 6.

[Morrigan2575]

34 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

That's not very good for Supergirl, is it? Wasn't it pulling 7 million viewers at CBS toward the end? I mean, I get that CW pulls fewer viewers, but I kinda expected more, maybe 1.4.

It's OK. I have a feeling, given the heavy promotion addition of OMG Superman! that CW/WB/DC we're hoping/expecting more. 

Supergirl will probably end up being the CWs #2 show behind Flash. Which, is good, i just think it's probably not as good as they wanted.

[Velocity23]

http://www.imdb.com/tv/fall-tv-legends-of-tomorrow-season-2/ls066059761