S13.E09: The Bad Place

[catrox14]

Yeah the more I think about it, the more I say I'll be happy when Robert Berens takes off for Wayward Sisters. He  basically wrote Dean as Mark of Cain Dean in this episode for no fucking reason.

[Whodunnit]

So now Jack is with Mary (who is in an iron maiden), Dean and Sam are in GodzillaworldTM (Please Show let it be Godzilla and not dinosaurs),  and the dreamwalker lady is like dead or unconscious at the side of the road (It sucks to be her I  guess).

[Casseiopeia]

So why didn't they call Castiel?  Dean has been asking Sam about Cas for a few episodes now.  How about a quick call to tell him where they are going?  I get that would have tipped off Foghorn Leghorn but they don't know that.

Mary was with Kelly when Jack exploded out of her.  Does Mary know what Jack looks like?

Dean has been all over the place this season.  They need to pick a personality for him.  I'm getting whiplash.  Terrorizing a traumatized girl that just showed him her battle scars just so not Dean Winchester I don't care how guilty he feels about abandoning mom.  I really hate the writing for Dean at times this season.

[AnimeMania]

Maybe Sam and Dean are in a world were the asteroid never killed off the dinosaurs so there are human-like (intelligent) dinosaurs. They never showed the face of the person in the hood there.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

So why didn't they call Castiel?  Dean has been asking Sam about Cas for a few episodes now.  How about a quick call to tell him where they are going?  I get that would have tipped off Foghorn Leghorn but they don't know that.

Mary was with Kelly when Jack exploded out of her.  Does Mary know what Jack looks like?

Dean has been all over the place this season.  They need to pick a personality for him.  I'm getting whiplash.  Terrorizing a traumatized girl that just showed him her battle scars just so not Dean Winchester I don't care how guilty he feels about abandoning mom.  I really hate the writing for Dean at times this season.

My problem is why would Dean ever put a gun in the face of a teenager other than when he was under the influence of the Mark. And I tell you that's exactly what the reminded me of.  So I just need someone to explain WHY reacted the way he did. 

[nightwing877]

So Jack is with Mary now. I wonder how they are going to get them both out now. Curious if Jack somehow ends up escaping but Mary is still left behind. I can't see the Wayward Sisters backdoor pilot seeing everyone rescued, I could see Jack and Mary's story resting next episode. While Kaia finds a way to rescue Dean and Sam. 

I still find it strange they decided to put Sam and Dean in this type of world, especially for a backdoor pilot. It's an odd choice to showcase for a potential spin-off series. Dinosaurs appearing in a backdoor pilot alone might give the wrong impression. 

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, nightwing877 said:

I still find it strange they decided to put Sam and Dean in this type of world, especially for a backdoor pilot. It's an odd choice to showcase for a potential spin-off series. Dinosaurs appearing in a backdoor pilot alone might give the wrong impression. 

I was thinking that it is kind of a meta comment by the show. The Winchesters are prehistoric, they are dinosaurs. The process of evolution has led to the creation of shiny new characters for the show, and it's okay if Dean and Sam are shunted aside, because who could possibly want to watch a story that is about them? Well, I would, but what do I know? :-/

[Bobcatkitten]

Wow. I don't know where to start with that. 

It was beautifully shot; had great music; the actors delivered. But man it was a mess.

There is not much you can say to convince me that Dean would ever kidnap a teenager at gunpoint. I know he's guilt-ridden and desperate but no. Also, Sam would never have stood by. He would step in front of the gun and say, "we can do this another way." There were trying to build into this big showdown at the boat and feeling like there was no choice but logically it made no sense. The warding failed. And all they had to do was cut themselves and do some sigils and the angels would be blasted away. It has worked without fail but suddenly wasn't an option. 

I liked Kaia and Jack's general storyline of trying to find a way to the other dimension. The scene where he showed Sam and Dean Mary was very good. And I liked the conversation in the car between Sam, Dean and Jack. 

But dinosaurs? Really? I love this show and I'm along for the ride but man it was a rough ride this week. And to be honest I'm not excited for the next one. 

Oh yeah, they didn't call Cas? Ridiculous. 

[Lady Calypso]

I thought about the episode some more, and I'm really annoyed what they did with Dean. Their attempt at making him be all about family, no matter the cost, makes sense, but he literally held a poor girl hostage just because he wanted to get Mary back. When he held the gun to Kaia, I thought that he was under some spell at first. Sam standing by and letting it happen also annoyed me. Both boys looked really bad in that moment, all to get to the last act of the episode. 

I think it annoyed me more when Kaia explained, quite reasonably, why she didn't want to dreamwalk, as it hurt her in real life. And then Dean held the gun to her anyway! What the hell, show? Both boys looked bad in that moment, but Dean more so. 

I still am excited for dinosaurs. It's only going to be a one episode thing and the rest of it will take place on the spinoff. Plus, I really like dinosaurs. It is season 13, after all. We've had our fair share of angels and demons. I'm ok with something a little more fun for an episode. It's not like it'll be a staple for the season. 

[sigmaforce86]

I liked this episode a lot - the pacing was just much better than earlier in the season.  Yes "obsessed with getting mommy back Dean" was over the top and a little TOO obsessed but the rest of the episode still made up for it.  

I thought the boys didn't call Cas because they couldn't be sure their lead on where to find him was any better than the lead Cas was following - and by the time they knew they'd found him they were too busy being chased to stop and contact him.  Or maybe that's just my own made up fan fiction to fill in an actual plot hole but works for me.

Also between Jacks electric face touching, weird gold force fields, pounding angels and dino tracks I think they saved up their entire half year special effects budget just to blow it all for this episode

[catrox14]

So this is Beren's response to Dean's actions.

He turns Dean into an asshole and then says oh Dean was bluffing.  He would have caved? So it was just pointless for him to put a gun in a teenage girls face? Did he just write that for the shock value at Dean's expense? 

Edited December 8, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Edited December 8, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah the more I think about it, the more I say I'll be happy when Robert Berens takes off for Wayward Sisters. He  basically wrote Dean as Mark of Cain Dean in this episode for no fucking reason.

So I totally disagree.  This was not remotely out of the blue IMO.  We've seen this coming for two years.  First, we know Dean's relationship with his Mom is fundamental to his self identity.  And he wrote her off -- out of rage and pain.  Second, all year Dean has been "no f*cks to give".  Starting with his unvarnished truth bomb he laid on the Sheriff in 13.1 (we're Sam and Dean Winchester and we kill monsters).  Third, he's been baldly truthful to Jack from the get-go.  From his 'if I have to, I'll kill you rather than let you hurt the world' to 'thought you were looking for your Dad'**.  Fourth, right in the episode, as soon as Jack showed him Mom was alive, Dean starts breaking.  We get the 'hollowed out voices' sound effect as Dean realizes the enormity of what's happened.  And he's mentally eviscerating himself for not trying to get back into the AU.  Yes, he wanted Sam to have hope, but Dean never ever believed.  And now he's proven wrong.  WORSE, Mary is being tortured in an Iron Maiden and screaming for help.  Yep.  That'd break Dean.  

And Sam and Jack knew Dean was WAAAYYYYY out of line. The show isn't pretending this is remotely okay.  Jack has clearly learned survival skills around Dean -- he's going to sit in the back and be quiet and let Sam handle Dean.  And Dean knows he's out of line.  But MOM IS IN PAIN.  And Dean did nothing about it for months.  Even if they get Mary back, Dean is going to have a hard time forgiving himself.

Now let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR:  I'm not blaming Dean.  Dean is blaming Dean.  That is how this character is wired.  

So... this isn't "Mark of Cain" Dean.  This is what being a demon and the Mark of Cain revealed about Dean -- dude can be ruthless when he's no longer cares about anything.  Dean would like to be dead right now - he's feeling so gutted -- but he can't.  He's going to go get Mary if it kills him and anyone who gets in his way.  It doesn't matter if WE think she deserves this special treatment - Dean feels she does.  And it's not going to be puppies and ice cream if they get her back.  We watched him take some SERIOUS damage right in this episode.  I don't know how he's going to ever forgive himself.

Again.. from Dean's POV... not my POV.

ETA: On Beren's note. Of COURSE Dean was bluffing.  I knew it, Sam knew it. Jack trusted Sam's instincts.  Dean wanted Kaia in the car.  He wasn't going to take no.  He wasn't going to actually kill her (because that would be pointless).  But he was going to dragon-roar at her (an directly threaten her with a gun) to obey until he could figure out what else to do.  Again, Dean's actions were NOT COOL.  They were waaaaaaay out of line.  But I never worried for Kaia's safety, let alone life, at the hands of Dean.  He did drag her into an Angel fight -- which was bad -- but I don't think he would have actually physically damaged her.  OTOH ... he DID psychologically scare the shit out of her. And he needs to own up to that.  That, again, was NOT COOL.  

Edited December 8, 2017 by SueB

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean is blaming Dean.  That is how this character is wired. 

 

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

- dude can be ruthless when he's no longer cares about anything.

Thank you for this post @SueB.   I had started my own reply but you said it way better than I ever could.  This is Dean.  Love him or hate him.  (I'm actually a bit surprised they went there, tho.  It's 8pm network tv, not HBO.)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think he might have shown Kaia the same vision of Paradise that he showed to Castiel.  I wonder if we'll ever get a glimpse of it.  Maybe that's end game for the show.  Jack creates Paradise on Earth, and everyone lives happily ever after... 

I thought so too, but then I wondered if Jack remembered the vision of Paradise that he's shown Cas while in the womb.  I thought earlier this season (and I can't remember which episode it was) when Sam questioned him about it, he didn't remember it?  I'd like to get a glimpse of it.  Just a few seconds is all it would take, so maybe I could get behind this 'vision' also.  Right now, I feel like I think Sam and Dean probably feel on the issue - we've been told but have no way to know if what Jack is saying or seeing is, or could even be, true.

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I thought about the episode some more, and I'm really annoyed what they did with Dean. Their attempt at making him be all about family, no matter the cost, makes sense, but he literally held a poor girl hostage just because he wanted to get Mary back. When he held the gun to Kaia, I thought that he was under some spell at first. Sam standing by and letting it happen also annoyed me. Both boys looked really bad in that moment, all to get to the last act of the episode.

Sam backs Dean up.  Generally, I think, he presents a strong, unified front to others instead of allowing any room for dissent.  (Now, before I'm crucified for that opinion, I'm sure there are examples were Sam has not done this - in front of others.  But as I said, generally, I think this is true).  He also did this - backed Dean up - with Mary last year in the bunker when Dean told her to leave, even though Sam obviously disagreed with Dean.

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My problem is why would Dean ever put a gun in the face of a teenager other than when he was under the influence of the Mark. And I tell you that's exactly what the reminded me of.  So I just need someone to explain WHY reacted the way he did. 

Exactly.  Now if the house of cards falls down it will be all Dean's fault since he was the one that insisted on opening the rift. 

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Exactly.  Now if the house of cards falls down it will be all Dean's fault since he was the one that insisted on opening the rift. 

Perhaps you have me on mute.. but I thought I gave a reasonable explanation of WHY Dean did what he did.  It was BAD, but it wasn't OOC IMO.

[Pondlass1]

Don't back Dean up against the wall.  Especially when it involves family.  I guess I wasn't as surprised as most.  Seemed in character for me - his mom's in trouble.  No way Dean would've carried through with any threat.  But he can be damn scary and it gets the job done.

Also - maybe he has a small residue of demon still left inside. LOL.

[Katy M]

I don't like that Dean did it, but I think there is a bit of precedent.  He didn't actually point the gun in his face, but he did tell Chuck he had a gun. He wouldn't have shot Chuck, either.  He didn't have a gun on him, but he threatened to shoot Uncle Ted in Family Remains.  Wouldn't have done it even if he did have a gun.  Most ridiculous of all, he acted like he was going to go for his gun in The Real Ghostbusters just because those guys were annoying him.  He helped Ron hold up that bank.  Granted, it wasn't his original plan, but he did go along with it and facilitated the "bank robbery" lasting for probably hours with all those innocent people scared.  He pointed a gun at those two campers when he came back from Purgatory.

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, SueB said:

So I totally disagree.  This was not remotely out of the blue IMO.  We've seen this coming for two years.  First, we know Dean's relationship with his Mom is fundamental to his self identity.  And he wrote her off -- out of rage and pain.  Second, all year Dean has been "no f*cks to give".  Starting with his unvarnished truth bomb he laid on the Sheriff in 13.1 (we're Sam and Dean Winchester and we kill monsters).  Third, he's been baldly truthful to Jack from the get-go.  From his 'if I have to, I'll kill you rather than let you hurt the world' to 'thought you were looking for your Dad'**.  Fourth, right in the episode, as soon as Jack showed him Mom was alive, Dean starts breaking.  We get the 'hollowed out voices' sound effect as Dean realizes the enormity of what's happened.  And he's mentally eviscerating himself for not trying to get back into the AU.  Yes, he wanted Sam to have hope, but Dean never ever believed.  And now he's proven wrong.  WORSE, Mary is being tortured in an Iron Maiden and screaming for help.  Yep.  That'd break Dean.  

And Sam and Jack knew Dean was WAAAYYYYY out of line. The show isn't pretending this is remotely okay.  Jack has clearly learned survival skills around Dean -- he's going to sit in the back and be quiet and let Sam handle Dean.  And Dean knows he's out of line.  But MOM IS IN PAIN.  And Dean did nothing about it for months.  Even if they get Mary back, Dean is going to have a hard time forgiving himself.

Now let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR:  I'm not blaming Dean.  Dean is blaming Dean.  That is how this character is wired.  

So... this isn't "Mark of Cain" Dean.  This is what being a demon and the Mark of Cain revealed about Dean -- dude can be ruthless when he's no longer cares about anything.  Dean would like to be dead right now - he's feeling so gutted -- but he can't.  He's going to go get Mary if it kills him and anyone who gets in his way.  It doesn't matter if WE think she deserves this special treatment - Dean feels she does.  And it's not going to be puppies and ice cream if they get her back.  We watched him take some SERIOUS damage right in this episode.  I don't know how he's going to ever forgive himself.

Again.. from Dean's POV... not my POV.

ETA: On Beren's note. Of COURSE Dean was bluffing.  I knew it, Sam knew it. Jack trusted Sam's instincts.  Dean wanted Kaia in the car.  He wasn't going to take no.  He wasn't going to actually kill her (because that would be pointless).  But he was going to dragon-roar at her (an directly threaten her with a gun) to obey until he could figure out what else to do.  Again, Dean's actions were NOT COOL.  They were waaaaaaay out of line.  But I never worried for Kaia's safety, let alone life, at the hands of Dean.  He did drag her into an Angel fight -- which was bad -- but I don't think he would have actually physically damaged her.  OTOH ... he DID psychologically scare the shit out of her. And he needs to own up to that.  That, again, was NOT COOL.  

Yeah. My gut reaction to that moment was a great big WTF??!! That is the darkest thing Dean has ever done. Jensen's performance from the moment Jack puts his hand on him, to putting Kaia in the car was downright scary. But chewing on it overnight, and reading various posts/tweets, this is where I landed also. This is Dean at the very end of his emotional rope. Great post.

I also read another thought on Twitter that resonated with me. This was also Dean saying, no, fuck this. We have helped everybody, at all costs, our whole fucking lives, and now you are going to help us whether you like it or not. It was brutal and shocking, but also, yeah. It was kind of awesome, too.

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Perhaps you have me on mute.. but I thought I gave a reasonable explanation of WHY Dean did what he did.  It was BAD, but it wasn't OOC IMO.

No, I don't have you on mute, and I did read your post.  But I don't agree with it. 

Yes, Dean will do some scary things for family, but he's also not heartless.  He does have a line, especially is there is a person right in front of him.  Kaia just showed him why she was scared to dreamwalk.  It physically harms her.  Just last episode Dean gave up the great good (finding Jack) to save Smash.  I just don't see him pulling a gun on Kaia after what she admitted. 

I read this post on Tumblr that explains the situation and why I thought it was BS and OOC much better than I could.

Quote

ok but here’s my problem

i can connect the horrible scene with kaia with jack giving dean the vision that clearly hit him much more than sam

and put the 3.16 hell call back together with jacks power mangling biggest fears and desires until the people bearing them work exactly as he wants them to (kelly, cas, kaia, therefore also dean)

but like both the plan and its execution are so lazy and poor and if it turns out to not be in any way powered by mind-altering, sorry but it is gonna be a disaster bc sorry slapping the “dean would do anything to save family” is just lazy and show’s berens’ lack of competence and an oversimplified vision of dean

like

yeah dean aint just purity and roses but lemme remind you that he’s the guy who was capable of talking god and his sister into resolving their issues while he was very much on the doomsday clock and carrying a bomb inside of him, so no, altered state aside, dean would not violently threaten a girl with a bullet to her head just because she gave a solid no to engaging with their personal problems which is even more of an insidious bullshit writing choice on berens’ side if sam (who actually canonically is capable  of doing shit like this on his very own) gets to stay innocently shocked and terrified with dean “snapping” which is meant to give off the vibe that he would Never do this which is just plain crap?

so like yes, offence, fuck this shit thanks

http://deanirae.tumblr.com/post/168321932233/ok-but-heres-my-problem-i-can-connect-the

[SueB]

Ah... no problem. I thought you were agreeing with there was no explanation.  That's different than no explanation you agree with.  Hence, my confusion. 

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

No, I don't have you on mute, and I did read your post.  But I don't agree with it. 

Yes, Dean will do some scary things for family, but he's also not heartless.  He does have a line, especially is there is a person right in front of him.  Kaia just showed him why she was scared to dreamwalk.  It physically harms her.  Just last episode Dean gave up the great good (finding Jack) to save Smash.  I just don't see him pulling a gun on Kaia after what she admitted. 

I read this post on Tumblr that explains the situation and why I thought it was BS and OOC much better than I could.

http://deanirae.tumblr.com/post/168321932233/ok-but-heres-my-problem-i-can-connect-the

I think the difference in Dean still talking with Amara with the bomb inside him is that it was only his life at stake*. This time it's his mother, whose 'death' he had chosen to accept and who is currently being tortured in a manner reminiscent of his time in Hell. I think that vision stripped him of the last fuck he had to give and Kaia got caught in the implosion. I do hope they have Dean revisit it with more than 'sorry I got you into this' (though I have no illusions that we will, given the writing sitch on the show), but I understand why now.

 

*Don't get me started on how this 1000-suns exploding nuclear option wasn't going to harm anyone else in the vicinity, but that's another post.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the difference in Dean still talking with Amara with the bomb inside him is that it was only his life at stake*. This time it's his mother, whose 'death' he had chosen to accept and who is currently being tortured in a manner reminiscent of his time in Hell. I think that vision stripped him of the last fuck he had to give and Kaia got caught in the implosion. I do hope they have Dean revisit it with more than 'sorry I got you into this' (though I have no illusions that we will, given the writing sitch on the show), but I understand why now.

 

*Don't get me started on how this 1000-suns exploding nuclear option wasn't going to harm anyone else in the vicinity, but that's another post.

The fate of the entire earth was at stake when Dean was attempting to talk Amara off the ledge.    He was very much under a time crunch as God was dying and if he died before Dean set off the bomb or talked Amara down the sun would have impolded. The stakes were much higher then Dean's family or Dean's life.  He literally had everyone's life in his hands.  He still took the time to try and empathize with her. 

As we saw Kaia was willing to cooperate when Jack did the mind meld thing, why not have Jack suggest that, before Dean pulled the gun. 

Maybe I'd feel differently if I felt it was part of a larger arc but I doubt it will be revisted which is why IMO, it was lazy and done for shock value and it didn't work because I don't see that as something Dean would do.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah. My gut reaction to that moment was a great big WTF??!! That is the darkest thing Dean has ever done. Jensen's performance from the moment Jack puts his hand on him, to putting Kaia in the car was downright scary. But chewing on it overnight, and reading various posts/tweets, this is where I landed also. This is Dean at the very end of his emotional rope. Great post.

I also read another thought on Twitter that resonated with me. This was also Dean saying, no, fuck this. We have helped everybody, at all costs, our whole fucking lives, and now you are going to help us whether you like it or not. It was brutal and shocking, but also, yeah. It was kind of awesome, too.

Best part of the episode, IMO.

But, as usual, the concern(mine, at least) is that it was just Jensen again giving everything he had in him, acting-wise, to this one scene with no pay-off for it forthcoming from the clueless writers of this show. If this were a well-written show, or even decently-written(as it was in the early seasons under Kripke and Kim Manners, IMO) then I'd be wondering what reckless thing Dean was going to do by the end of this season and hoping that it might involve sacrificing himself, in some way, in order to atone for all of the ways that he felt that he'd "failed" others this season and, by doing so, making his life "matter" again to some extent-and yes, similar to as he did and felt when he made the deal to save Sam. This would be very IC for Dean too, IMO, as it's apparent(to me) from this season(so far, anyway) that Dean feels that he doesn't matter that much in the mostly Godless(to him) land of the living. I, again, think that this type of a storyline for Dean IS being presented to us so far this season, but the worry is that it's yet again just more Jensen's acting that is presenting it to us, than the actual writing, which since S4 has a had the ignominious history of simply dropping seemingly awesome storylines and potential storylines for Dean and treating them as if they never even happened.

The hope is that the attention to Dean's hell time in the last episode and that awesome scene of Dean learning that Mary was indeed alive(and what's worse, being tortured! at the same time)in this episode, has re-awakened Dean's own unresolved hell time and all the horrors that went along with it and that completely changed him on a very fundamental level.

Dean still needs redemption from his long-buried hell time experience, IMO, and if this were any other show, I'd say that they are setting him up to earn that in a similar way to how they set up Sam's redemption in S5; but this is a show that completely dropped Dean's hell time experience once before and has pretty much refused to even acknowledge that storyline again in any real way up until last episode, so hope is still in short supply in that regard for this Deanfan. Anything further on this, I will take to another thread.

But getting back to this one-those were the two scenes that I found to be the best in this episode. I'm not interested in the Wayward Whatevers at all, so I figured that I'd be writing this one and the next one off as pretty much immaterial to this season of Supernatural-which, again, other than those two scenes that left me with some tiny bit of hope for some possibilities with them continuing Dean's grief/nihilism arc, that WAS how I saw and felt about this one.

Jack just seems like Sam II with SuperPowers to me and, as such, the character, as written and acted, holds little appeal for me, but I am aware that both the writers and the "new" viewing audience just love the little cream puff to pieces, and as such, I expect even more Jack pimping to come, with both Dean and Sam likely taking the backseat support roles to all his heroics.

Such a strange way to treat the apparent stars of the show, but this is apparently the New Supernatural where the action hero(who isn't Dean or Sam, this time around) must possess huge powers in order to save the world even while he continues to vacillate between his feelings of actually being good or evil at his core-so season 5 all over again, except, as I mentioned, with Jack being given Sam's role this time around. Oh, Joy...*sighs*...

I DID literally LOL at the dinosaur footprint, with the thought that this show is indeed becoming so bad that it's funny, in some ways.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Dean pulling the gun on Kaya was a really bad moment because the writing wasn`t there for it, not in this episode and not in this Season so far. They can`t have OTT slapstick comedy and then try to pull a "the character is really in a dark place" moment. I also didn`t like the double negative, he was wrong about Mary and now he is wrong in handling how he was wrong about it. Groanworthy. 

All IMO to get to the end and have Kaya transport them away. This could have easily been accomplished with her agreeing to help on her own. There was no need to make Dean look horrible for shits and giggles just to get there.  

Also with Sam, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. He offers up a shocked "Dean" but otherwise lets it happen. Considering he has gotten judgemental over much less, why did he not step in with such a situation? That was as ludicrously OOC as Dean doing it in the first place.     

In the end, it kinda makes me hate Mary even more because it`s because of her and her ungrateful ass doesn`t deserve my favourite character getting ruined for her.

The end was just Purgatory 2.0. It`s a de-saturated woodland area with monsters. So what if it`s prehistoric and dinosaurs. Clearly, there is also a human-like being there, as seen in Kaya`s vision. And they have neither the budget to pull off Jurassic World (maybe Jurassic Park when they took their first tour and no dino showed up) nor the talent to pull it off in a clever way, getting around budgetary restraints. 

Patience and her Dad made me roll my eyes. You don`t need to literally redo every little thing from early Winchesters for this spin-off.        

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't have a problem with Dean doing what it takes to get the job done. Sometimes even superheroes have to go a little dark - and Dean is a hero, in my books. I do believe we are/were supposed to understand and believe that it was a bluff - there's no way Dean shoots any innocent just for refusing to help. Even the most ardent of Dean-haters have to admit that. But I want the writing to back it up, and I want them to follow through on it in a way that supports the character, not that throws him under the bus. I've said for a while now that I believe they are writing towards Dean dying - and this downward spiral of darkness and desolation (despite the few light moments) only convinces me more. Just don't fuck it up, show. Make it worthy of my emotions, and of Jensen's acting.

[Diane]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

So I totally disagree.  This was not remotely out of the blue IMO.  We've seen this coming for two years.  First, we know Dean's relationship with his Mom is fundamental to his self identity.  And he wrote her off -- out of rage and pain.  Second, all year Dean has been "no f*cks to give".  Starting with his unvarnished truth bomb he laid on the Sheriff in 13.1 (we're Sam and Dean Winchester and we kill monsters).  Third, he's been baldly truthful to Jack from the get-go.  From his 'if I have to, I'll kill you rather than let you hurt the world' to 'thought you were looking for your Dad'**.  Fourth, right in the episode, as soon as Jack showed him Mom was alive, Dean starts breaking.  We get the 'hollowed out voices' sound effect as Dean realizes the enormity of what's happened.  And he's mentally eviscerating himself for not trying to get back into the AU.  Yes, he wanted Sam to have hope, but Dean never ever believed.  And now he's proven wrong.  WORSE, Mary is being tortured in an Iron Maiden and screaming for help.  Yep.  That'd break Dean.  

And Sam and Jack knew Dean was WAAAYYYYY out of line. The show isn't pretending this is remotely okay.  Jack has clearly learned survival skills around Dean -- he's going to sit in the back and be quiet and let Sam handle Dean.  And Dean knows he's out of line.  But MOM IS IN PAIN.  And Dean did nothing about it for months.  Even if they get Mary back, Dean is going to have a hard time forgiving himself.

Now let me be CRYSTAL CLEAR:  I'm not blaming Dean.  Dean is blaming Dean.  That is how this character is wired.  

So... this isn't "Mark of Cain" Dean.  This is what being a demon and the Mark of Cain revealed about Dean -- dude can be ruthless when he's no longer cares about anything.  Dean would like to be dead right now - he's feeling so gutted -- but he can't.  He's going to go get Mary if it kills him and anyone who gets in his way.  It doesn't matter if WE think she deserves this special treatment - Dean feels she does.  And it's not going to be puppies and ice cream if they get her back.  We watched him take some SERIOUS damage right in this episode.  I don't know how he's going to ever forgive himself.

Again.. from Dean's POV... not my POV.

ETA: On Beren's note. Of COURSE Dean was bluffing.  I knew it, Sam knew it. Jack trusted Sam's instincts.  Dean wanted Kaia in the car.  He wasn't going to take no.  He wasn't going to actually kill her (because that would be pointless).  But he was going to dragon-roar at her (an directly threaten her with a gun) to obey until he could figure out what else to do.  Again, Dean's actions were NOT COOL.  They were waaaaaaay out of line.  But I never worried for Kaia's safety, let alone life, at the hands of Dean.  He did drag her into an Angel fight -- which was bad -- but I don't think he would have actually physically damaged her.  OTOH ... he DID psychologically scare the shit out of her. And he needs to own up to that.  That, again, was NOT COOL.  

Sue as usual you are right on point.

[Bergamot]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The hope is that the attention to Dean's hell time in the last episode and that awesome scene of Dean learning that Mary was indeed alive(and what's worse, being tortured! at the same time)in this episode, has re-awakened Dean's own unresolved hell time and all the horrors that went along with it and that completely changed him on a very fundamental level.

Dean still needs redemption from his long-buried hell time experience, IMO, and if this were any other show, I'd say that they are setting him up to earn that in a similar way to how they set up Sam's redemption in S5; but this is a show that completely dropped Dean's hell time experience once before and has pretty much refused to even acknowledge that storyline again in any real way up until last episode, so hope is still in short supply in that regard for this Deanfan. Anything further on this, I will take to another thread.

But getting back to this one-those were the two scenes that I found to be the best in this episode. I'm not interested in the Wayward Whatevers at all, so I figured that I'd be writing this one and the next one off as pretty much immaterial to this season of Supernatural-which, again, other than those two scenes that left me with some tiny bit of hope for some possibilities with them continuing Dean's grief arc, that WAS how I saw and felt about this one.

Myrelle, this is how I saw that scene as well, as tying back to Dean's experiences in Hell, and looking forward to some kind of resolution -- or as you say, redemption -- from what he has been through. If the show has no plans for any kind of payoff from all of this, if it is all just dropped, then it really was pointless and unfair.

Especially since I knew as soon as the scene started, with Jack telling them Mary was alive, that this is what people would be talking about. Not so much about Kaia or Patience, no matter how hard the show is trying to push the new characters. It's not just because they are new, either; I was fascinated with Dean and Sam, wondering what their story was, from the first scene they were in. Sorry, but I could not care less about Patience's relationship with her father. (And could their big tragic good-bye scene have fallen any flatter? Her father came across to me like, "Well, bye, Patience, have a good trip -- and oh, by the way, don't ever come back.")

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't have a problem with Dean doing what it takes to get the job done. Sometimes even superheroes have to go a little dark - and Dean is a hero, in my books. I do believe we are/were supposed to understand and believe that it was a bluff - there's no way Dean shoots any innocent just for refusing to help. Even the most ardent of Dean-haters have to admit that. But I want the writing to back it up, and I want them to follow through on it in a way that supports the character, not that throws him under the bus. I've said for a while now that I believe they are writing towards Dean dying - and this downward spiral of darkness and desolation (despite the few light moments) only convinces me more. Just don't fuck it up, show. Make it worthy of my emotions, and of Jensen's acting.

This. So much. Seriously.

Jensen has been So. Amazing. in S13. Better than ever, IMO. The writing simply has to do the character justice, though. It can't all come from just and exclusively the acting in this case and in this particular storyline, IF it IS a storyline, FCOL, and not just another weird character beat that they decided to throw in there for whatever reason.

And that 's the biggest problem with the writing these days, and mainly because of the writing history, IMO-you can't tell what they're doing as far as storylines are concerned with any of the main characters-except Jack, of course, who seems to be their new flavor of the month-or Dabb's, anyway.

I put the rest of my thoughts on this last part in the B vs J thread...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dean still needs redemption from his long-buried hell time experience, IMO, and if this were any other show, I'd say that they are setting him up to earn that in a similar way to how they set up Sam's redemption in S5; but this is a show that completely dropped Dean's hell time experience once before and has pretty much refused to even acknowledge that storyline again in any real way up until last episode, so hope is still in short supply in that regard for this Deanfan. Anything further on this, I will take to another thread.

My first thought was that either Jack did something to him that made him act that way. Or that he was remembering his own Hell time so it caused him to really go ballistic. I said that in of my first comments in the thread. And I figured that was just my headcanon that I don't think was supported by the canon text. Unless it's the subtext and now that Berens acknowledges that subtext is there intentionally in the storytelling maybe it's not totally my headcanon or yours.

Sadly though, that doesn't change the horrible optics of an episode that has a 40 year old man putting a gun to the head of teenage girl who has shown her own suffering and her acquiescing to his demands. That's the optics left behind. It's bad for Dean and only Dean because Sam isn't shown doing that. He's not stopping it but he's not doing the action. And then the other guy is telling her that her powers can be used for good with the camera on Sam which HELLO FORESHADOWING the reappearance of Sam's powers. You mark my words. It's gonna happen. Quote me on this. 

I don't know if Dean himself was flashing back to his Hell time in 13.08 or it was just the show reminding the audience that Dean has been to Hell and back. I thought it was the latter. But maybe that did trigger Dean's Hell PTSD so he relived his own time. And it also may have triggered the part of his Hell time where in he tortured others for 10 years like maybe he became ruthless out of some PTSD shit. I mean if that is shown to be what happened to him vs just "Bully Dean" I will submit my mea culpas and tip my cap to the writers.  I don't think that is going to happen, though. 

I said in 13.08 that Sam's Hell time not being mentioned was on purpose. It was present by it's absence (like Cas was present by his absence in the early part of the season via Dean's grief). So I'm thinking it's likely that Sam's Hell time that gets a revisit via Jack with Mary. Which raises the question, does Mary even KNOW that Sam went to Hell as Lucifer's vessel. I know what Dean told her in their dream walk (oh hi dreamwalking knowledge LOL 2.0) but does she even remember?

Even if Sam's Hell time stuff was triggered by the same vision, he didn't put a gun in Kaia's face to make her help them. IF anything it's like he shut down to an extent. But then Sam's reactions in this episode were so weird. Like was he a pod person, was he in shock that Mary was alive and being tortured? Or was he supposed to be the moral center here? I'm guessing the latter.

[Casseiopeia]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sadly though, that doesn't change the horrible optics of an episode that has a 40 year old man putting a gun to the head of teenage girl who has shown her own suffering and her acquiescing to his demands. That's the optics left behind.

Unfortunately that is all I can think about from last night's episode.  There is no justification.  There were at least 10 other ways Dean/Berens could have handled that moment.  That was a series low for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Unfortunately that is all I can think about from last night's episode.  There is no justification.  There were at least 10 other ways Dean/Berens could have handled that moment.  That was a series low for me.

If they had to do this, it's too bad they didn't do it with Patience instead, who decided to throw her lot in with 'the life' despite Dean warning her off (and Jody blowing off that warning). At least then there could have been a lesson from it - saving people and hunting things often comes with a hefty price tag. Doing it with a young woman who has just shown her vulnerabilities was a poor choice.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Unfortunately that is all I can think about from last night's episode.  There is no justification.  There were at least 10 other ways Dean/Berens could have handled that moment.  That was a series low for me.

Long time viewers who know Dean and have a perception of him will find ways to have it make sense, accept it and even forgive Dean for the transgression. The problem is that episode was not for those viewers only. It was also for the Wayward viewers who are only tuning in for the Wayward connection to this episode. What do they get?

A teenage girl who can't control her unasked for power and suffers for it is the protagonist in this situation and she is accosted by this other apparent teenager ish guy who seems to want her to use her powers but she punches him and fights him off. "Yay you go girl".  And this guy is awkward just wants her to know she can do good things with her power.

Then there are two older dudes, one who is being nice to her, and suddenly this other guy who yes is desperate to save his mother, puts a gun in the face of the innocent teenager and she's terrified of him.

How do you think that's gonna play with the female audience they hope to get. Not everyone finds it hot when Dean acts that way or even knows what Dean's history is. And boom now he's the villain in the episode and maybe even the villain of the entire work, if you don't know all about Dean's history. 

It's a bad look and not well handled at all. Bleh.

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If they had to do this, it's too bad they didn't do it with Patience instead, who decided to throw her lot in with 'the life' despite Dean warning her off (and Jody blowing off that warning). At least then there could have been a lesson from it - saving people and hunting things often comes with a hefty price tag. Doing it with a young woman who has just shown her vulnerabilities was a poor choice.

And it was a deliberate choice to put Dean in that situation. I am less charitable that Dabb has a longer thing for Dean's benefit. I just don't see what it does other than making Dean the villain here. 

[gonzosgirrl]

It occurs to me that this is another episode title this season that refers to both a place (The Big Empty, The Bad Place) and Dean's state of mind.

[Diane]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Long time viewers who know Dean and have a perception of him will find ways to have it make sense, accept it and even forgive Dean for the transgression. The problem is that episode was not for those viewers only. It was also for the Wayward viewers who are only tuning in for the Wayward connection to this episode. What do they get?

A teenage girl who can't control her unasked for power and suffers for it is the protagonist in this situation and she is accosted by this other apparent teenager ish guy who seems to want her to use her powers but she punches him and fights him off. "Yay you go girl".  And this guy is awkward just wants her to know she can do good things with her power.

Then there are two older dudes, one who is being nice to her, and suddenly this other guy who yes is desperate to save his mother, puts a gun in the face of the innocent teenager and she's terrified of him.

How do you think that's gonna play with the female audience they hope to get. Not everyone finds it hot when Dean acts that way or even knows what Dean's history is. And boom now he's the villain in the episode and maybe even the villain of the entire work, if you don't know all about Dean's history. 

It's a bad look and not well handled at all. Bleh.

And it was a deliberate choice to put Dean in that situation. I am less charitable that Dabb has a longer thing for Dean's benefit. I just don't see what it does other than making Dean the villain here. 

The ratings don't really support this.  I can't imagine there were a bunch of new people watching, but maybe so. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Long time viewers who know Dean and have a perception of him will find ways to have it make sense, accept it and even forgive Dean for the transgression. The problem is that episode was not for those viewers only. It was also for the Wayward viewers who are only tuning in for the Wayward connection to this episode. What do they get?

A teenage girl who can't control her unasked for power and suffers for it is the protagonist in this situation and she is accosted by this other apparent teenager ish guy who seems to want her to use her powers but she punches him and fights him off. "Yay you go girl".  And this guy is awkward just wants her to know she can do good things with her power.

Then there are two older dudes, one who is being nice to her, and suddenly this other guy who yes is desperate to save his mother, puts a gun in the face of the innocent teenager and she's terrified of him.

How do you think that's gonna play with the female audience they hope to get. Not everyone finds it hot when Dean acts that way or even knows what Dean's history is. And boom now he's the villain in the episode and maybe even the villain of the entire work, if you don't know all about Dean's history. 

It's a bad look and not well handled at all. Bleh.

And it was a deliberate choice to put Dean in that situation. I am less charitable that Dabb has a longer thing for Dean's benefit. I just don't see what it does other than making Dean the villain here. 

Hopefully it is addressed, if only amongst the 'sisters' why Dean did what he did, and how he has also saved each of these women's lives at least once. If they don't have Jody or Donna defend Dean to them (even if it's after a good smack upside his head), then I want nothing to do with their show. And let's not forget that both Sam and Jack, either one of whom could've stepped in, didn't.

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe I'd feel differently if I felt it was part of a larger arc but I doubt it will be revisted which is why IMO, it was lazy and done for shock value and it didn't work because I don't see that as something Dean would do.  

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not sure when I'll have the chance, but I'm not sure that it isn't something Dean would do.  From what I've read, the one thing that keeps sticking out to me is the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean says, "Killing that guy, killing Meg. I didn’t hesitate, I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just, uh .... it scares me sometimes."  Now, I know the show and Dean have come a long way since then and killing meat suits isn't an issue anymore, but I think that if you substitute Mom for Dad, it could apply in this situation too, no?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not sure when I'll have the chance, but I'm not sure that it isn't something Dean would do.  From what I've read, the one thing that keeps sticking out to me is the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean says, "Killing that guy, killing Meg. I didn’t hesitate, I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just, uh .... it scares me sometimes."  Now, I know the show and Dean have come a long way since then and killing meat suits isn't an issue anymore, but I think that if you substitute Mom for Dad, it could apply in this situation too, no?

Not really. This wasn't someone who was a threat to Dean. She wasn't attacking him or anyone else. She just wouldn't help them. It's not like she was actively harming them. He had no reason to go there with her. 

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm going to put Dean forcing Kaia into the car down to temporary insanity from learning of Mary's fate. He did apologize to her, but man, that was dark.

Indeed.

And I know that I agreed with an earlier post that said his fans would know that Dean would have never pulled the trigger, but I'm going to do a turn around on that part of the post that I agreed with because when I was watching, I honestly was afraid that he might do it-and obviously so was the girl.

Dean was So Friggin' Dark and Scary as Hell there.

But this just makes me feel more strongly than ever that it is imperative that these writers simply do something more with this aspect of Dean this season, and with what happened there with him or it will just reinforce my already held belief that Jensen is being wasted on this show and with this present set of writers, especially.

So I guess for me Berens comment should have been more along the lines of that's something to wonder about. His actual comment now makes me feel as if this was just a weird character beat that he threw in there, which is again, too bad, as my little bit of hope of more coming out of it for Dean, has now become more diminished to practically nothing...*sigh*...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

Berens' tweet:

 

Jensen, when asked in October what time period he would visit

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not sure when I'll have the chance, but I'm not sure that it isn't something Dean would do.  From what I've read, the one thing that keeps sticking out to me is the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean says, "Killing that guy, killing Meg. I didn’t hesitate, I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just, uh .... it scares me sometimes."  Now, I know the show and Dean have come a long way since then and killing meat suits isn't an issue anymore, but I think that if you substitute Mom for Dad, it could apply in this situation too, no?

Dean can and has dome some try scary and over the line things in the past.  I dont' deny that.  The thing that makes this different for me is what immediately preceded Dean pulling the gun.  Some spoilers her for Kaia's background since you haven't seen the episode.

Kaia takes drugs to stay awake because she doesn't want to dreamwalk and almost OD'd.  She doesn't see her powers as a gift she sees them as a curse.  When Kaia didn't want to help she wasn't refusing due to principal, or because she was some snot nosed teenager with an attitude.  She was down right terrified because dream walking physically harms her.  She showed Sam and Dean the scars.

So no, I don't see Dean pulling a gun on teenager in that situation regardless of Mary.
 

49 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So I guess for me Berens comment should have been more along the lines of that's something to wonder about. His actual comment now makes me feel as if this was just a weird character beat that he threw in there, which is again, too bad, as my little bit of hope of more coming out of it for Dean, has now become more diminished to practically nothing...*sigh*...

Berens talked about how the episode came up short so they extended the Sam, Dean, Cas driving scene and how it become the emotional center of the ep.  TBH, I have no idea with scene he was talking about since there was two.  One where they tell Jack he's family and one where Jack talks about how powers can be used for good.   Maybe instead of giving more lines to Jack (which I admit I tuned out). why not take advantage and give us a quick flashback to Dean in hell.   They have the set with the cage, film Jensen in it.

Show a new flashback that comes up just after Dean sees Mary in the cage.   Show the audience that Dean is mentally trapped back in hell.  If it wasn't possible to film Jensen in that cage, there are other ways to do it.  When Dean pulls the gun have him say, "you're going to help us.  You're going to get me out of there."  (instead of mom)

That shows that Dean's PTSD is fully triggered rather than just the weird character beat Berens made it sound like. 

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If they had to do this, it's too bad they didn't do it with Patience instead, who decided to throw her lot in with 'the life' despite Dean warning her off (and Jody blowing off that warning). At least then there could have been a lesson from it - saving people and hunting things often comes with a hefty price tag. Doing it with a young woman who has just shown her vulnerabilities was a poor choice.

This wouldn't work either since it was Dean who called her for help.  We're supposed to believe that a hunter of Dean's experience wouldn't know how to track down a physic instead of calling a high school girl who can barely control her powers that Dean also warned away from the life.

Edited December 8, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Jediknight]

That ain't a dinosaur.  Something tells me they're going to be introducing Lovecraftian type gods.  They need to introduce something that Jack wouldn't just stomp into the ground in 3 seconds, and bringing in those type of gods would be right up the alley.  It's why Billie wants the Wichesters alive, they, Castiel, Jody, Donna, the Wayward Daughters, and Jack working together stand the best chance of stopping them from taking over this and countless other dimensions.

Fantastic mid-season finale, and I am digging the heck out of this season.  Jack has been a great addition to the show, and I love that so far they haven't had him tempted by the dark side.  He doesn't give a rat's ass about Lucifer, he only cares about Sam, Dean, and Castiel, they're his family.

[Diane]

Just now, Jediknight said:

Fantastic mid-season finale, and I am digging the heck out of this season.  Jack has been a great addition to the show, and I love that so far they haven't had him tempted by the dark side.  He doesn't give a rat's ass about Lucifer, he only cares about Sam, Dean, and Castiel, they're his family.

I really like Jack too, enjoying his interactions with his family. 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Diane said:

I really like Jack too, enjoying his interactions with his family. 

I saw some wank about Dean accepting him as family all of sudden, both after his attitude in the beginning and because it took years for Cas to attain 'family' status. To that I say, Dean has always been about show vs tell, and Jack has shown that he wants to help, that he's remorseful over hurting anyone, and most of, he facilitated Cas's return and showed them what happened to Mary. He earned Dean's... maybe trust isn't the right word, but let's go with it for now. And I think he got the 'family' status because of Cas. Cas considers Jack his family/responsibility and Dean and Sam consider Cas family, therefore... 

Edited December 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

Dean being quick to declare someone family quickly isn’t exactly new anyway. He declared Charlie family after working on what 3 hunts together? 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

The ratings don't really support this.  I can't imagine there were a bunch of new people watching, but maybe so. 

There are only correlations, not causations that we can prove at all.

There are the SM ratings the network does pay attention. That's how this spinoff idea even came about. Because of the push on SM that trended the Wayward stuff for a long time. They trended #Wayward last night.

Regardless of ratings, that doesn't actually change my point. The numbers could have stayed steady because #wayward viewers came over and others may have left because they don't care about the wayward stuff.

And there are a lot of viewers who have bailed on SPN because they didn't care for how female characters have been portrayed and treated by the show who are interested in WS. And I suspect more will show up for the official back door pilot because they support it. 

So yeah I actually stand my entire comment because there is more to this than overnight ratings.

24 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

That ain't a dinosaur.  Something tells me they're going to be introducing Lovecraftian type gods.  They need to introduce something that Jack wouldn't just stomp into the ground in 3 seconds, and bringing in those type of gods would be right up the alley.  It's why Billie wants the Wichesters alive, they, Castiel, Jody, Donna, the Wayward Daughters, and Jack working together stand the best chance of stopping them from taking over this and countless other dimensions.

Fantastic mid-season finale, and I am digging the heck out of this season.  Jack has been a great addition to the show, and I love that so far they haven't had him tempted by the dark side.  He doesn't give a rat's ass about Lucifer, he only cares about Sam, Dean, and Castiel, they're his family.

I saw some stuff on SM that maybe this will be True Form Angels. That would be pretty interesting.

What are Lovecraftian gods? Can you give us some examples? That sounds better than dinosaurs LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There are only correlations, not causations that we can prove at all.

There are the SM ratings the network does pay attention. That's how this spinoff idea even came about. Because of the push on SM that trended the Wayward stuff for a long time. They trended #Wayward last night.

Regardless of ratings, that doesn't actually change my point. The numbers could have stayed steady because #wayward viewers came over and others may have left because they don't care about the wayward stuff.

And there are a lot of viewers who have bailed on SPN because they didn't care for how female characters have been portrayed and treated by the show who are interested in WS. And I suspect more will show up for the official back door pilot because they support it. 

So yeah I actually stand my entire comment because there is more to this than overnight ratings.

I'm still going to wait and see what Jody, Claire and Alex's reactions to all this is. Yes, Dean did a bad thing here - absolutely 100%. But there are also absolutely extenuating circumstances, and Jody - at least the Jody we've known since S5 - understands this. As do Claire and Alex, who have both seen the brothers do things in the name of saving people, and have forgiven (as well as been forgiven). So if the WS writers take the tack that Dean is some horrible misogynist child abuser who should be shunned and/or punished, then screw them. They will turn me off their show, just as surely as what Dean did will turn some off of SPN. And if they rewrite the history they just wrote, and give Sam and Jack no responsibility for what happened, screw them harder, with a rusty pipe.

[Bobcatkitten]

Upon rewatch, I liked it much better. It did feel like more than a TV episode - especially the cinematography and settings. The angels slowly breaking the warding was intense and made me sit forward. 

But the kidnapping scene was even worse. In my mind he just sort of waved the gun mildly but he really pointed it at her head. Ugh. And it could have easily been avoided by simply moving where Jack shows her the good things to the parking lot instead of later in the car. Also still don't care about another universe - dinosaurs or no dinosaurs. 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I saw some wank about Dean accepting him as family all of sudden, both after his attitude in the beginning and because it took years for Cas to attain 'family' status. To that I say, Dean has always been about show vs tell, and Jack has shown that he wants to help, that he's remorseful over hurting anyone, and most of, he facilitated Cas's return and showed them what happened to Mary. He earned Dean's... maybe trust isn't the right word, but let's go with it for now. And I think he got the 'family' status because of Cas. Cas considers Jack his family/responsibility and Dean and Sam consider Cas family, therefore... 

I think Dean sees someone as family when the script requires it. (snark)

I think Cas took longer because he was an angel. And some of that taking time was really only a like a year. Dean considered Cas family IMO in s6 before he learned of his betrayal which is why it hurt him so much. I think he did it when he declared TFW 1.0. I  think Cas was reticent to see himself as family to Dean and Sam because he was betraying his angel family and I think he got that finally during s8 and s9. And could openly admit he loved them as his human family in s12.  I agree that Dean sees Jack as family because Cas does.