S03.E12: The Bakra

[Athena]

Quote

The Artemis finally reaches Jamaica bringing Jamie and Claire that much closer to their goal. During a lavish ball on the island, the Frasers encounter old allies, as well as former adversaries who threaten to derail their mission.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[FnkyChkn34]

The worn shoulder on Jamie's coat is all I can see now in every scene. It's bothering me...

Edited December 3, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[GHScorpiosRule]

And I’m miffed that Geilles is still her skinny ass self.??

[Bort]

I’d rather not have Lotte in a fat suit. Those never look good.

[FnkyChkn34]

Oh, so that's how it's going to end? Hunh.  I'm not an immediate fan of this episode... I will need to rewatch and think on it. The hour went way too slow for me and not enough happened. 

[toolazy]

I did not love this episode though I'm withholding final judgement until I see the finale.  

Just now, FnkyChkn34 said:

Oh, so that's how it's going to end? Hunh.  I'm not an immediate fan of this episode... I will need to rewatch and think on it. The hour went way too slow for me and not enough happened. 

Exactly!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Blah. I’m disappointed in Schelhaas. Boring episode.

The only parts I enjoyed were a few:

Wee Ian slapping his hand against his mouth after revealing that his Uncle Jaime had the other sapphire. He just looked so adorable.

The other was the smoldering looks between Jaime and Claire at the Ball after he teased Claire how she couldn’t keep her hands off him in Paris. This after Claire teased him how Marsali and Fergus reminded her of them.

❤️?❤️?❤️

I was never so glad as near the end when Jaime got rid of that god awful wig. The one Geilles was wearing at the Ball was just as horrid.

And Captain Leonard is a bastard. Is he psychic as well? Jamie and Claire weren’t even visible as their carriage took them away.

I guess it’s guid I don’t recall any of this from the buik?

Good to see Lord John. He had ??when looking at and talking to Jaime!

HAH! I KNEW Dougal lied to Claire about Geilles and their child! 

[Dust Bunny]

Cait looks gorgeous with the grey streaks. Sam is fitting into Jamie's age as well.

I could watch David Berry all day long. I never really felt the Lord John Grey love in the books, like some readers. Yet, with David Berry embodying the role, I need to read all the novellas.

Lotte really goes for it. Wow.

Temeraire has more agency; credit to the writers on that one. Casting for slaves is one job I would never want. 

I see why they cast that gal for Margaret. Her "reading" eyes were disconcerting. I hope we hear Bree next week! And I look forward to Sam reaching for Cait's hand that's been in the credits.

I do love how they're re-purposing the gowns and suits, in subtle ways.

South Africa is gorgeous. I envy the location scouts on this show.

Alright episode. Lots of exposition. Not enough Lord John Grey.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[Cloudberryjam]

“Of all the gin joints...”

Why didnt J + C just run in and get LJG to have Geillis arrested or send soldiers to her plantation to check it out? Surely he would do Jamie that favor.

Was Willoughby hitting on Margaret or just being kind?

3 minutes ago, Dust Bunny said:

Cait looks gorgeous with the grey streaks. Sam is fitting into Jamie's age as well.

I could watch Dave Berry all day long. I never really felt the Lord John Grey love in the books, like some readers. Yet, with Dave Berry embodying the role, I need to read all the novellas.

Lotte really goes for it. Wow.

Temeraire has more agency; credit to the writers on that one. Casting for slaves is one job I would never want. 

I see why they cast that gal for Margaret. Her "reading" eyes were disconcerting. I hope we hear Bree next week! And I look forward to Sam reaching for Cait's hand that's been in the credits.

I do love how they're re-purposing the gowns and suits, in subtle ways.

South Africa is gorgeous. I envy the location scouts on this show.

Alright episode. Lots of exposition. Not enough Lord John Grey.

I agree, I find David Berry so magnetic—I hope they will spin off the LJG novels, though I havent read them either. I could watch him read the phone book (erm do they even  have phone books anymore??) 

[Ziggy]

I disagree that not much happened. I realize it wasn't an action-packed episode, but a ton of stuff happened. Most of it was really laying the groundwork for the season finale. The Geilles story line was full of information.

There were some big changes from the book, so the episode really kept me on the edge of my seat. I'm really eager to see how they pull it all together in the finale ... and just how Jamie gets away so quickly.

I'm really not looking forward to Droughtlander.

[theschnauzers]

A lot of “territory” was covered and now we can see why the writers made some choices earlier in the season that pay off in this episode. This episode also highlighted how good the casting is, not only with Sam and Cait, but David Berry, John Bell, Lotte Verbeck, and some of the other significant supporting cast. I thought the episode was phenomenal given the heavy plot burden it had to carry. I’m sure we will see the rest of the payoff in the finale. And I would swear Outlander used the same spot that was used for Nassau on Black Sails. Continues to show how smart that decision was by TPTB.

[Dust Bunny]

Something else happened in this episode: we had the POV of Young Ian. "The Reckoning" was the first POV episode of Jamie. We've had POV with both Bree and Roger. This episode had a LONG cold-open, from Young Ian's perspective. That's a really strong and subtle way to suggest how central a character he becomes. The Fraser [of the Soon-To-Be-Ridge] Clan continues to grow.

[Petunia846]

I thought they did an excellent job adapting the book here. There was very little (or maybe nothing?) that was exactly like the book, but in my opinion it actually worked much better than this section of the book did. I agree that a ton of stuff happened and I was pretty fascinated the whole time while watching it.

My biggest take-away: That prophesy! Oh my gosh. Obviously it's taking about Bree. 200 years old at birth because Claire went back through the stones. I know the much later books get into the issue of the prophesy of the return of the Scottish kings and that's a plot line, but was it really in this book or is that another adaptive change? Also, did Claire and Jamie not hear that? Did they not understand it? They were standing right there, but she was kind of mumbling and stuff.

Didn't we already have Ian's perspective once, when he was with that girl and then the print shop burned? I appreciated the rattiness of Jamie's jacket because what else would you expect after a long sea voyage (and especially one with as much adventure as theirs)? I agree it would have been nice to know why they didn't just run to LJG and get his help with everything. Even just a shot where they were looking around the party desperately but couldn't find him or something like that. Another question, so they set "their" slave free, but who was the other guy driving the carriage? Was he not a slave too? I know he wouldn't have been their slave, but that doesn't really seem fair or realistic that he wouldn't have run off too.

[Ziggy]

The prophesy was mentioned in Voyager, but I can't remember exactly what was said. There was a moment when Claire saw a genealogy chart with Bree's name on it. I didn't remember that at all the first time I read Voyager. When I read it the second time, I did so after finishing the series (and I remembered the chart from Echo or MOBY).

There is just so much information in the books!!! One of the things I love about the show is the moments here and there when I say, "So that's what that part was about!" Rereading the books is almost like reading them for the first time because there is so much I missed, and I learn even more in the show.

[thesparkinside]

While they were talking about the prophecy, I was like, "Wait, wait, who do they mean?" I don't know why it didn't come to me immediately that it was Brianna, but I decided to just let it go and keep watching so that I didn't miss anything. It came to me a minute or two after finishing.

It was a decent episode. Loved Young Ian's shocked reactions and Geilis being both evil and not stupid (I really liked, "Of all the gin joints . . . "). And Lord John not knowing wtf was going on but trying to be okay with it all. I'm glad they went there (a bit) with the slavery issue. I expected Jamie and Claire to say, "Are you sure you want to live off in the woods with a colony of runaways? We might be able to get you somewhere where you can live openly and freely . . . " But I guess they're done with that character, so they let him ride off into the sunset (kind of).

I really liked the repurposing of clothing, as they discussed in the behind the scenes snippet. It is quite realistic, actually. Clothing was very valuable, especially the finer stuff like Claire's dress and Jamie's suit of clothes. Very cool. Oh, and I LURVED Geilis's sack dress when she was talking to Archibald and Margaret! The wigs were bad, but I think that was purposeful. :)

The blood bath was insane. It could have come off dumb of silly, but I think it worked. Is she crazy or awesome or scary or what? Young Ian, like Lord John, has a great WTF face.

I think we got subtle clues that Claire understands what's going on with Lord John, but I'm glad it wasn't more overt and that it wasn't actually discussed (I would have had to roll my eyes HARD if Claire openly discussed the fact that LJ has the hots for her husband in a public place where anyone could overhear it).

[AheadofStraight]

Couldn't they have aged Lotte even a smidgen?? She barely looked older than Ian and she should be in her 40s or 50s. At a minimum she could've laid off the botox before filming. As I said to friends, her forehead is smoother than my 11 year old's. ??

[Cloudberryjam]

After listening to Matt and co in the behind the scenes bit after talking about how much they love Lotte and that they wanted to work her into season 2 also but didnt,  I wonder if they will go completely off the rails and

Spoiler

Keep Geilis alive, have Claire chase her to Abandawe and then Geillis goes thru the stones. It would b waaay off book but they kinda changed the prophecy...and Lotte IS awesome....

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cloudberryjam

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

After listening to Matt and co in the behind the scenes bit after talking about how much they love Lotte and that they wanted to work her into season 2 also but didnt,  I wonder if they will go completely off the rails and

  Hide contents

Keep Geilis alive, have Claire chase her to Abandawe and then Geillis goes thru the stones. It would b waaay off book but they kinda changed the prophecy...and Lotte IS awesome....

The only problem with that is the bones have already been established earlier in the season. Not that they couldn't change that, but... .

[Cloudberryjam]

Quote

 

 

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only problem with that is the bones have already been established earlier in the season. Not that they couldn't change that, but... .

Oh yeah thats right thanks i forgot about the bones...never mind! :)

[WatchrTina]

I'm posting an initial reaction without looking at anything anyone else has said.

OMG that was so good!  I didn't know how the writers could possibly condense so much plot but they did it.  (Let's all just whistle past that slave trusting a white man to keep his promise to set him free.  The deep suspicion demonstrated in the book is MUCH more realistic but hey, we've only got two episode -- some stuff just HAS to be condensed.) Other than that wee complaint -- great job by the writers.

Oh and the wee Captain of the Porpose?  He needs to die screaming.  Asshole.

[nodorothyparker]

This whole section of the book is such a convoluted mess saved only by the return of Lord John for me so I really wasn't expecting much.  The show managed to be both better and worse with the big governor's ball of convenient meetups and prophesy/magic mumbo jumbo.

Lotte Verbeek is such a hoot in this role that I can mostly look past the nutso literal bloodbath that lets her look the same approximate age as 16-year-old Ian, who was decent enough in this episode even if the actor still looks and seems completely wrong as book Ian.  At least the show remembered that many redheads fade as they age and adjusted her terrible wig accordingly.   This version of Geillis makes a little more sense than her book counterpart at this point in the story, but her big plan still seems to be marrying conveniently nonsuspecting men and then hanging out for years and years to halfass attempts to change history for the glory of Scotland.

The slave market scenes were great in showing the reaction of a modern person who of course is aware historically that there would have been slaves and it would have been terrible but hadn't really given the reality of it or walking up on it much specific thought.  I have to echo a nonbook reader though in wondering what exactly did Claire see happening when she implored Jamie to "do something."  It bugs a bit in both book and show that she's shocked just shocked that the only thing he realistically could do was buy the slave for her.  And of course they both expect this man who has every damn reason to be beyond suspicious of their motives as white strangers who legally own him to trust them that of course they'll let him go if only he can do them this favor and report back to them first.  But then this is the same Claire in the same episode who is shocked just shocked that Geillis, knowing what she knows about Geillis, would lie about knowing where Ian is.

I still love Lord John as a character but his return is mostly flat here for me.  Book Claire walks in on a scene she doesn't understand and is blindsided pretty quickly by the revelation that Jamie still has this huge secret and past that John is part of that she isn't, leading to the wonderfully prickly interactions she and John will have at least through the next few books as she tries to suss all of that out.  But because the show gave away the Willie reveal two minutes after she showed up, it comes across here as a much less nuanced "Oh hey, here's my good friend.  I've told you all about him."  "Oh, okay."  The end.  I will give David Berry credit though for doing a nice job reacting to all the weird stuff that was going on in those scenes with Geillis and then Margeret as a man who knows he's not in on the joke but will do his best to put a good face on it anyway.

I still like the writing for show Yi Tien Cho/Willoughby even if it's not exactly clear where they're going with it with only one episode left.

[toolazy]

Lotte's wig at the ball - we were meant to know it was a wig, right? It wasn't a make-up wig, it was literal wig?  Because if we were meant to think that was really her hair, someone dropped the ball in a big way.

[FnkyChkn34]

36 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Lotte's wig at the ball - we were meant to know it was a wig, right? It wasn't a make-up wig, it was literal wig?  Because if we were meant to think that was really her hair, someone dropped the ball in a big way.

I assume that it was meant to be as bad and as obvious as the men's white wigs. 

[Bort]

I love Geillis so much. She’s such a lunatic and Lotte plays the hell out of her. I’ll be sorry to see her go.

I laughed and laughed at the guy’s complete look of bafflement at Geillis’s Benjamin Button reference.

[GingerMarie]

3 hours ago, AheadofStraight said:

Couldn't they have aged Lotte even a smidgen?? She barely looked older than Ian and she should be in her 40s or 50s. At a minimum she could've laid off the botox before filming. As I said to friends, her forehead is smoother than my 11 year old's. ??

She did age.  Her hair is not as red and you can tell her features are older.  She looked older but by no means old.  

[Hybiscus]

Just let me get the "important" stuff out of the way first.

12 hours ago, Dust Bunny said:

I could watch David Berry all day long. I never really felt the Lord John Grey love in the books, like some readers. Yet, with David Berry embodying the role, I need to read all the novellas.

Alright episode. Lots of exposition. Not enough Lord John Grey.

1

 

12 hours ago, Cloudberryjam said:

I agree, I find David Berry so magnetic—I hope they will spin off the LJG novels, though I havent read them either. I could watch him read the phone book (erm do they even  have phone books anymore??) 

2

I am just finishing up with the Lord John novels and novellas and highly recommend them.  In fact, I'm going to reread them all when I finish and might even attempt to do a "read-along" (podcast or blog series) about them.  David Berry is truly terrific.  He also plays a gay man in the 1950's in the Australian tv series A Place to Call Home, but he's completely different,  Still handsome, but rather weak (the character, not Berry). 

As for the actual episode, this contained two of the ickiest scenes from the book, and my stomach was lurching through them; the Geillis/Young Ian scene and the slave market with the groping.  And I think my opinion of Matt Roberts just went down, as it was his idea for the blood bath.  Although, it did do wonders for Geillis's skin.  heh.

[Dust Bunny]

9 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

Didn't we already have Ian's perspective once, when he was with that girl and then the print shop burned?

Oh, you’re right! My bad. I blame it on the stuffy head and cold medicine. #FluShotFail

Edited December 3, 2017 by Dust Bunny

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

Overall I have to say I think the writers did an amazing job speeding through the essential plot points, even as they added scenes not in the book and changed other plot points. This is reminding me of the thrill I experienced when Game of Thrones went way off-book with the Sansa story-line.  It’s rather exciting to NOT know how this is all going to play out.  So many unanswered questions!  Now on to the blow-by-blow.

Whoo hoo!  Pre-credits scene showing what happened to Ian!  I LOVE it.  And I love that the Geillis reveal happened in that scene so that the surprise was not ruined for people by Lotte Verbeek’s name in the credits.  Alas, the re-appearance of Lord John WAS spoiled in the opening credits for those people paying attention but hopefully most non-readers missed that.

Oooh I hope we get behinds-the-scenes info about where Geillis’ estate was filmed.  That pink monstrosity was perfect for her lair.  I presume that the bath chamber (was it also her bedroom?) was a set but they did a great job capturing the island atmosphere of decrepitude and damp.  The wallpaper looked like it was moldering.

And speaking of that bath scene, damn, Lotte – you look good.  I am completely okay with the decision to NOT put Lotte in a fat suit and to, instead, give her character attributes of the infamous Elizabeth Báthory, who was reputed to have bathed in the blood of virgins in the belief that it would preserve her youth.  Book!Gellis – who I visualized like a fat spider in the middle of its web – might not have translated to the screen with the same creepy horror one feels in the book.  Sexy, preternaturally young Gellis works better in a visual medium. It also makes for more interesting mixed feelings by Ian whose brain is no doubt screaming “Danger danger! Run away!” while his nether regions are saying “Oooh, dat ass!”

I love how completely indifferent Geillis is to her male servant seeing her naked.  It’s a nice hint of the degree to which she holds them all in thrall.

I loved how Gellis slid her body over Ian’s in much the same way that the snake in the last episode slithered its body over Claire.

Mon Dieu, Sam looks good back in his French court finery.  When he steps out of that carriage at the ball he takes my breath away.  He even makes the wig work and that is saying something.

Oooh look!  Marsali is wearing the same gown that Claire wore to watch Jamie play chess with the Finance Minister in Paris (when Le Comte St Germain poisoned her.)  That was an amazing box of old clothes they had on the Artemis.  It not only held dresses for Claire and Marsali, it also contained silk coats for Fergus , Yi Tien Cho and Jamie.  Yeah, yeah I know, it’s unrealistic that they would be in that good a shape or that they would fit without major alternation (or that that many garments would fit in that box).  I don’t care.  I’m delighted to see those fine clothes again and I’m just going to fan-wank that Marsali is an absolute wizard with a needle and thread (with help from Claire who we know CAN sew clothes but is used to doing it by machine).  Who knows?  Maybe Yi Tien Cho helped with the alternations. He’s a man of many gifts.

I did like the writers adding the bit about Claire’s discomfort at seeing the slaves in attendance at the ball and the line they added when Jamie asks when it will end.

I’m not really a believer in love at first sight (a la Romeo and Juliet at the ball) but, given that Margaret routinely makes contact with mystical forces and that Yi Tien Cho has the soul of an artist, I’m going to assume that their mysterious instant mutual-attraction is one of those unexplainable forces in the Outlander-verse like the standing stones and Margaret’s prophetic visions.

That bit of banter followed by devoted looks that we were treated to while Jamie and Claire stood in line to meet the Governor made me hug myself with glee.  At first I thought it was just a goody for the fans (longing looks and romantic back-ground music) but now I think it was there to contrast with the moment to come, when Claire sees John’s longing look and is troubled and confused that Jamie does not seem at all bothered (or surprised) by it.

I liked Jamie’s comments about “ghosts” (e.g., Lord John) being drawn to them and that maybe it is Claire’s having traveled through the stones that causes all these coincidences in their lives. That sentiment is echoed again when Claire spies Geillis and excuses herself from Lord John saying “I think I’ve seen a ghost.”  It’s like the writers are speaking directly to the viewers about this flurry of unexpected reunions saying “Yeah, yeah, we know – just go with it.  It worked for Charles Dickens.”

I loved that the first words out of Jamie’s mouth once they are in private with Lord John are “Is Willie here?”

I love that the first words out of Lord John’s mouth once he hears about Ian are “What can I do to help?”

Okay I LOVE what they did with Jamie’s sapphire. That look on Claire’s face when Lord John admits he wears it “to remember our friendship” is everything.  I laugh every time. And I love that that stone now has such a key role to play in the plot that follows.  That’s some creative re-imagining they did and I LIKE it.

Another good addition is when Jared’s man offers to introduce Jamie to a brother freemason.  It’s a throw-away line – we never saw Jamie become a freemason at Ardsmuir in the show so most people will miss it.  But we did see masonic symbols on “A. Malcom’s” print shop sign and I recall that Book!Jamie reached out to the masonic temple at each location during their island hopping to make connections and gain help in the search for Ian. In this episode it makes sense that Jamie and Claire have to separate at this moment since he’ll be speaking to a fellow mason brother-to-brother and the presence of a woman would (I presume) interfere with the free exchange of information.  And it neatly paves the way or Claire to have a private conversation with John and then with Geillis.

And speaking of that private conversation with John – Yowza!  Tension so thick you could cut it with a knife.  I loved it.

Did you notice how pretty Margaret looked when Yi Tien Cho spoke to her in the garden?  That’s it – I’m demanding that all future first dates take place by candle-light. (Margaret and I are of an age ye ken?) 

That scene between Claire and Geillis is wonderful.  Geilli’s personality really comes through via her brutal dialog (most of which is straight from the book) and we get to see her straight-up lie to Clare about Ian.  She really is a witch bitch.

“A new king will rise in Scotland upon the death of a child that is 200 years old on the day of its birth.”  That can only mean Brianna who was conceived in the past but born in the 20th century.  Danger danger danger!  Excellent foreshadowing.

 

THE BAD

Claire should not have called the Campbells by their first names on so slight an acquaintance but she does so when she first sees “Archibald” at the ball.  I understand that the writers wanted to clarify who was who (we might not recognize him in that wig) and I can fan-wank that Claire was flustered about names (he calls her “Mrs. Malcolm”) but calling someone by a first name was a very intimate act in that time and place, reserved for family and close friends.  That’s why it’s so noteworthy when Jamie and John do it.

I know that as Governor John can be as rude to his guests as he wants but walking away from the receiving line at his own ball to have a private word with two particular guests struck an unrealistic note to me.  I know the writers did it just to move the plot along but given how strict the rules of etiquette were for people of that class, that moment was a clunker for me.

 

THE UGLY

Geillis’ wig at the ball – Mon Dieu! 

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

How is Jamie going to get out of THIS?  His arrest is totally off-book.  I have a theory but I’ll take it to Book vs. Show.

So what WAS that red stuff (the faux blood) that Lotte had to bathe in?  I hope they tell us in the podcast.  It wasn’t mentioned in the afterword.

Is it my imagination or is Lotte’s hair a different color?  I don’t think she colored it for Outlander – she’s been a red-head in everything I’ve seen her in – so I wonder if they put her in a wig with gray at the roots as a nod to her having aged there (if nowhere else.) That would be consistent with how they have aged Cait & Sam.

[morgan]

WatchrTina I pretty much agree with your whole post! 

Yes thought it was a very solid episode and a good way to burn through material, tie a lot of plot points, and add some new stuff in that actually makes sense.  Well done.  Also the first episode that had held my non book reader husband’s interest in weeks.

Loved how they faded Lotte’s hair color.  Exactly how my red-headed mother’s hair aged.  

[WatchrTina]

10 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

My biggest take-away: That prophesy! Oh my gosh. Obviously it's taking about Bree. 200 years old at birth because Claire went back through the stones. I know the much later books get into the issue of the prophesy of the return of the Scottish kings and that's a plot line, but was it really in this book or is that another adaptive change? Also, did Claire and Jamie not hear that? Did they not understand it? They were standing right there, but she was kind of mumbling and stuff.

I don't think they understood it.  Remember that interpreting Margaret's visions was Archie's particular gift -- he could bring meaning to his sister's rantings.  And even Geillis was not sure what that prophesy meant . . . at least not yet.

10 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

I agree it would have been nice to know why they didn't just run to LJG and get his help with everything. Even just a shot where they were looking around the party desperately but couldn't find him or something like that.

Claire didn't learn that Geillis had lied to her until Temeraire brought his news.  By then they were running from Captain Wanker and Geillis had already left the party.  John and Jamie have a close personal relationship but I can well imagine Jamie preferring a strategic retreat in that moment rather than trying to exploit that relationship to get himself out of a bind.  (That being said, I fully expect Lord John to figuratively ride to the rescue and order Jamie released next episode.)

 

10 hours ago, Petunia846 said:

Another question, so they set "their" slave free, but who was the other guy driving the carriage? Was he not a slave too? I know he wouldn't have been their slave, but that doesn't really seem fair or realistic that he wouldn't have run off too.

Temeraire had been promised freedom.  Jamie and Claire wished him well and sent him on his way.  No one was going to go looking for him.  The driver's owner, on the other hand, has probably made it clear that, should the driver ever run away, his owner would leave no stone unturned to find him and punish him (and likely anyone he cared about.)  That fear of capture and punishment was a key driver to keeping men enslaved.

Edited December 3, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Petunia846]

24 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't think they understood it.  Remember that interpreting Margaret's visions was Archie's particular gift -- he could bring meaning to his sister's rantings.  And even Geillis was not sure what that prophesy meant . . . at least not yet.

Archie didn't "interpret" Margaret's visions so much as give people some bs like a fake fortune teller. She apparently has a real mystical gift, he's just a con artist. I'm thinking that Jamie and Claire literally didn't hear it, or else surely they would have understood immediately, just like most viewers.

[Bort]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Is it my imagination or is Lotte’s hair a different color?  I don’t think she colored it for Outlander – she’s been a red-head in everything I’ve seen her in

I think Lotte is really a blonde, I’m pretty sure that was her hair color when she was on Agent Carter. 

[toolazy]

So I hated that part where Geillis tells Young Ian that it's a good thing he's not a virgin because it means he'll know what to do.  I hated that a really icky scene contained dialog to call to mind one of my favorite scenes - when Jamie tells Claire he's a virgin.  

[Nidratime]

Before reading anything....

Boy, that was good. I was entertained, strictly from a TV show standpoint. Bravo!

Regarding the prophecy, since Margaret didn't mention the Frasers of Lovat, it could actually apply to both Brianna and Roger ... although we know from the books, it's about the Frasers.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nidratime

[dbell1]

I missed Lotte and her wacky Geillis. But when was Benjamin Button published? Took me totally out of the scene, almost like the doctor saying "flop sweat" to Frank.

Wee Ian is one of my favorite buik characters, so I appreciated seeing a POV from him.

Odd how it became Dougal's family jewels and not Prince Charlie's war chest. And the sapphire is a paperweight, not a shiny bauble. Guess it's easier to hold as a random floppy piece of jewelry.

I want Yo Tien Cho to run away with Margaret and live happily ever after. 

I'll be in withdrawal symptoms next Sunday at 9. I've been rereading the series, but almost done there too. Might have to pick up 7 stones to get me through it.

[WatchrTina]

21 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Regarding the prophecy, since Margaret didn't mention the Frasers of Lovat, it could actually apply to both Brianna and Roger ... although we know from the books, it's about the Frasers.

I don't think that's right.  Only Brianna was conceived in one century and born 200 years later.  I think it's pretty clear the prophecy is about her.  Alas, Claire is on her way to Geillis' house with a pocket full of photos of Brianna, which is going to clue Geillis in as to who the prophesy is about.

4 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

But when was Benjamin Button published?

The short story was published in the 1920s, so Geillis could legitimately be familiar with it (though I would have to wonder how widely F. Scott Fitzgerald's work was read in Scotland in the 1950s - 1960s when Geillis was growing up.)

Edited December 4, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Nidratime]

Quote

I missed Lotte and her wacky Geillis. But when was Benjamin Button published? Took me totally out of the scene, almost like the doctor saying "flop sweat" to Frank.

It was a short story by F. Scott Fitzgerald, published in the 1920's. So, the movie is just based on that and Geillis could've read the Fitzgerald story.

 

Quote

I don't think that's right.  Only Brianna was conceived in one century and born 200 years later.  I think it's pretty clear the prophecy is about her.  Alas, Claire is only her way to Geillis' house with a pocket full of photos of Brianna, which is going to clue Geillis in as to who the prophesy is about.

Thanks. Having just read the first four books, I've been lost on this prophecy business.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nidratime

[morgan]

3 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

I missed Lotte and her wacky Geillis. But when was Benjamin Button published? Took me totally out of the scene, almost like the doctor saying "flop sweat" to Frank.

1922

[dbell1]

Thanks Button readers. :)

[Nidratime]

I sure hope the TV show gives both Willoughby and Margaret a better ending than the books and they run off together. It's much better than him ending up with a pelican and her ending up with the escaped slaves who expect her to participate in ceremonies where she bites off a chicken's head.

[morgan]

6 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I sure hope the TV show gives both Willoughby and Margaret a better ending than the books and they run off together. It's much better than him ending up with a pelican and her ending up with the escaped slaves who expect her to participate in ceremonies where she bites off a chicken's head.

Oh god I forgot about that!  

[Moxie Cat]

40 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

The short story was published in the 1920s, so Geillis could legitimately be familiar with it (though I would have to wonder how widely F. Scott Fitzgerald's work was read in Scotland in the 1950s - 1960s when Geillis was growing up.)

That's true. I guess we can fanwank that Geillis might have been a Fitzgerald fan who read his short stories. But the reference was clearly intended for modern audiences who know the movie. I wish Geillis, familiar with 1968 pop culture, would have made a reference to Dark Shadows, Star Trek, or Doctor Who, all of which had time travel components and would have been more fun (and in the case of DS, a good callback, though it probably wasn't aired in the UK, I'm guessing).

Edited December 4, 2017 by Moxie Cat

[TaurusRose]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I still love Lord John as a character but his return is mostly flat here for me.  Book Claire walks in on a scene she doesn't understand and is blindsided pretty quickly by the revelation that Jamie still has this huge secret and past that John is part of that she isn't, leading to the wonderfully prickly interactions she and John will have at least through the next few books as she tries to suss all of that out.  But because the show gave away the Willie reveal two minutes after she showed up, it comes across here as a much less nuanced "Oh hey, here's my good friend.  I've told you all about him."  "Oh, okay."  The end.  I will give David Berry credit though for doing a nice job reacting to all the weird stuff that was going on in those scenes with Geillis and then Margeret as a man who knows he's not in on the joke but will do his best to put a good face on it anyway.

It didn’t feel like that at all to me.  There was plenty of tension between Claire and John Grey. I don’t know how she reacted in the book, but I got the feeling that show Claire sensed a strong bond between Jaime and LJG and wasn’t quite sure what to make of it.  I loved her reaction at seeing John wearing the sapphire as a token of “friendship.”

7 hours ago, GingerMarie said:

She did age.  Her hair is not as red and you can tell her features are older.  She looked older but by no means old.  

I agree.

[Scarlett45]

On 12/3/2017 at 10:21 PM, taurusrose said:

It didn’t feel like that at all to me.  There was plenty of tension between Claire and John Grey. I don’t know how she reacted in the book, but I got the feeling that show Claire sensed a strong bond between Jaime and LJG and wasn’t quite sure what to make of it.  I loved her reaction at seeing John wearing the sapphire as a token of “friendship.”

 

Yes there was a lot of silent acting on Cait’s part and conflicted emotions on Claire’s face during the scenes with Lord John. Those emotions seemed very human and reasonable. It’s obvious Jaime trusts and respects Lord John a great deal, anyone with eyes can see that there’s an intimacy there.....and the actor playing Lord John is doing so well; he has romantic feelings for Jaime (I don’t think he’s “in love” but it’s not just lust), and of course he’s a decent person so he’s not going to break any social rules that would make Jaime uncomfortable (even in private)- however it’s showing all over his face. 

 

The slave market scenes were hard. Seeing poor Margaret mistreated by her brother and exploited for her gift was hard as well- damn. 

 

Gorgeous costuming though. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Squirrely]

You all are making me feel a lot better about this episode, so thanks for that. It was probably one of the strongest this season, now that I'm reflecting on it. 

But I'm so annoyed by the reveal of Geillis. I thought about the credits spoiling it for non-readers, but I don't care!! That was one of the best scenes in Voyager and I should have known better than to expect this show not to mess it up. 

I'm also hoping that YTC and Margaret run off together. I was thinking that from the moment he looked at her. I can totes live without the whole alligator and weird ass voodoo in the woods next week too. I tend to skip that part in rereads. 

Are we going to hear a word about Murtaugh or are they going to make us suffer another droughtlander first? 

I read Lord John and the Private Matter (drove out of state for the closest book signing too) and hated it. I just couldn't believe I was reading a book based on a prick sore. Haven't bothered with the others. It's a shame because I adore him in the main series. Maybe I need to try again. I can't wait til he shows up on the Ridge with Willie! If we don't get the outhouse scene I'm forever done with this show. ;)

[theschnauzers]

17 minutes ago, Squirrely said:

I read Lord John and the Private Matter (drove out of state for the closest book signing too) and hated it. I just couldn't believe I was reading a book based on a prick sore. Haven't bothered with the others. It's a shame because I adore him in the main series. Maybe I need to try again. I can't wait til he shows up on the Ridge with Willie! If we don't get the outhouse scene I'm forever done with this show. ;)

May I suggest reading some of the other LJG novellas? At least The Scottish Prisoner.

[newsjunkie]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only problem with that is the bones have already been established earlier in the season. Not that they couldn't change that, but... .

I assume the one thing they won't address is the one paradox that bothers me: how her bones can presumably have existed all that time in the cave even when Geillis was assumedly alive for part of the period of the 20th century.

[IntrovertGal]

Once again the show cuts scenes I was most looking forward to, i.e. Lord John giving Jamie the miniature portrait of Willie, Lord John and Jamie embracing and the long conversation Claire and Lord John had at the ball. Now I realise the show writers couldn't have included all of this because Jamie already told Claire about Willie (how I regret they made that decision now!) but they could still have included Lord John giving Jamie the picture and the embrace. Once again I was utterly disappointed by the show writers's decision to cut stuff that I love. First the kiss between Jamie and Lord John and now this. At least we got see some long and longing (on Lord John's part) looks between them, which Claire certainly picked up on. All in all there was not enough Lord John in this episode. However, David Berry still knocked it out of the park in the scenes he was given. Still, I guess I will have to resign myself to the fact that the show will never get certain scenes (especially involving Lord John) right and not to have any expectations in the future.

Other than that, I thought it was a thrilling episode, a lot happened and was revealed and I was not bored once second. The blood bath was extremely icky, but I loved seeing Geillis again, even if she is more nuts than ever.

The looks between Jamie and Claire at the ball when they were remembering their younger days when they couldn't keep their hands off each other were extremely hot! More of that please.

I have to agree with others here, Jamie's wig was absolutely terrible. I laughed out loud when I first saw him in it.

The slave market was incredibly hard to watch, as was hearing Claire tell Jamie that it would take decades/a century for slavery to end.

Now please excuse me while I go reread chapter 59 ("In Which Much Is Revealed").

[AheadofStraight]

17 hours ago, GingerMarie said:

She did age.  Her hair is not as red and you can tell her features are older.  She looked older but by no means old.  

I couldn't get past the ridiculously smooth, non-moving forehead to notice anything else. I also watched on my phone so I may feel differently once I see it on the bigger screen.

[Squirrely]

8 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

May I suggest reading some of the other LJG novellas? At least The Scottish Prisoner.

I have a copy of it. It may sound silly but I have such a hard time with Jamie and Claire's long separation, that I don't know if I can stand to read/enjoy it! I'm too damned emotionally invested in these fictitious people. lol