S03.E09: The Doldrums

[millahnna]

Loved this one; great pacing, good establishing the new characters.  And we're basically at the point in the books where I stalled out (I think I made it a few pages into Claire being on the other boat).  But unlike this same part in the book, I'm actually interested in what comes next on the ships. I continue to find most of the show changes to be improvements. 

 

The only nitpick I had this episode (and truly, it's a minor nitpick) was when Jamie was talking down the dude from jumping overboard, for whatever reason, Sam had some serious baby face going on. Don't know if it was the lighting or the action or what but when he commented on Claire's greys later it kind of doubled the irony of the show choosing to not bother making them look older.  Didn't really bug me though.  I noticed it but it made me laugh a bit.

[Haleth]

I'm glad I read a lot of this episode thread (or maybe it was the book vs show thread) before actually watching the episode.  It cleared up some of the questions posed.  About Claire's dresses, Jamie says he had them sent to Lally Broch years ago by Jarod and couldn't part with them.  That's why he still had them and didn't sell or repurpose them.  Claire's blue skirt wasn't too short, she had it hitched up in front to make it easier to walk around the ship.

I'm loving Marsali, the little brat.  She's certainly her mother's daughter, right?  And I'm loving Yi Tien Cho.  Thank you, writers, for giving him dignity instead of being a racist stereotype!

The situation on the man o' war was dreadful.  That poor boy, trying to lead while half the crew were dying.

There has been no mention of Murtaugh because the writers want to surprise us when he turns up in the colonies.  Mark me. :)

Black Sails fans, did anyone else think the cook looked like Randall, the cook who loses his job to Silver?  Maybe all 18thc ships cooks look the same.  Was that ship the Walrus?

7 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Fergus is about 32, and Marsali is 15

Man, if that isn't timely...

Edited November 13, 2017 by Haleth

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have a question- why is Jaime so against Fergus and Marsali’s marriage? I understand in the books he wished for it to be blessed by a priest, but in show verse he’s against it and I don’t see why. Fergus is a grown man by modern standards and Marsali is over marriageable age with no indications she’s promised to someone else. They’ve been courting a few months and want to get married....this is a problem because?!! I can see Jaime NOT wanting Lagohaire to be a part of his family until the end of time but Claire just returned, he cannot expect Fergus and Marsali to change their plans because his wife (Claire) returned to the dead. 

Of course it wasn’t fair for Marsali to be such a bitch to Claire but I cannot be surprised by her behavior. Seems like life was good for them with Jaime as a stepfather, and her mother is angry and hurt, easy to blame Claire of her misfortune. 

As others have mentioned, Fergus is kind of an outlaw with no real means to support a wife and family. And there is the age difference to consider too. But, mostly, I just think it was such a surprise to Jamie that he figured it was a whim of theirs to get married and not really that they had real feelings for each other. More akin to a couple of teenagers running off to Vegas to get married without thinking about it at all.

[WatchrTina]

15 hours ago, morgan said:

It’s funny, sometimes, even most of the time,  I think Sam is amazing.  And sometimes....not so much.

That's my reaction too though thankfully the "not so much" moments are few and far between. Generally speaking, I think he's doing a brilliant job in a demanding role.  Not every actor can pull of the charming-and-funny-action-hero bit and then also turn in a performance full of pathos and vulnerability like that scene in the cave with Mary McNab. 

On those few occasions where I feel like something is going wrong in his scenes I think it is almost always the fault of the writing.  I've already said I don't understand the way he played the conversation on the dock with Claire (where Ian is mentioned) but the blame for that can be placed squarely on the writers.  None of us (viewers) are sure what it was Jamie told Jenny & Ian in the letter.  The folks in the unsullied thread are REALLY confused. That's the fault of the writing, not the acting.

I remember a behind-the-scenes bit I saw once with Carrie Fisher of Star Wars.  She was talking about how difficult some of the dialog was in the the original film.  She said she told George Lucas, "Just because you wrote it doesn't mean we can say it."  If you think Sam sometimes stumbles -- I'd say look to the writing.

Edited November 13, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Juliegirlj]

The scenes on the ship seemed like a remake of the Master and Commander movie. I disliked Jamie and Claire having separate cabins- seems like a lazy writing trick. 

I am less invested in Claire and Jamie because they seem less invested in each other. Overall the season feels like a big let down to me and it bums me out. 

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Black Sails fans, did anyone else think the cook looked like Randall, the cook who loses his job to Silver?  Maybe all 18thc ships cooks look the same.  Was that ship the Walrus?

OMG you are right!  He DOES look like the cook from Black Sails.

And as for your second question, yesterday Luke Arnold (who played Long John Silver on Black Sails) re-tweeted one of @Outlander_STARZ's tweets about this episode with the commentary:

Quote

When you walk into a room at a party and see your ex all over someone else #thatsmywalrus

Edited November 13, 2017 by WatchrTina

[satrunrose]

I really liked this episode! I love the way they've handled Yi Ten Cho. Before the season started, I was honestly hoping they would write him out because the book character was such an uncomfortable caricature but it's like the show writers took the couple of honest, human, dignified moments he was allowed in the book and turned that into the character and the result (thanks to actor and writers) is lovely. 

I guess I'm generally happy with the way the books are being changed this season. I have complicated feelings about Voyager. I love so many of the beats in the novel but when you step back and look at it as a whole there's way to much and then...and then...and then... for it to feel coherent (seriously, how many shipwrecks were there?). Yes, there's a bunch of scenes I miss seeing, but I feel like the pacing has been a big improvement on the novel (which is odd, because show pacing has been a bit of a complaint of mine up until this point). 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, millahnna said:

Don't know if it was the lighting or the action or what but when he commented on Claire's greys later it kind of doubled the irony of the show choosing to not bother making them look older. 

When I did my second rewatch, and granted my lights were on in the room, I could see the "wrinkles" the make-up people added to right around Sam's eyes and below. They've also added some "furrows" for his brow. I think they look just fine. I'm hand waving it as these two people, despite all the trauma they have suffered, just have verra good genes and look younger than they are. Gabaldon has written it a number of times how Claire looks younger than her age.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I'm loving Marsali, the little brat.  She's certainly her mother's daughter, right? 

I'm not. I detested her in the buiks until after she got over her judgy self toward Claire. And aye, she is her mother's daughter. Mainly because, though it's true that Claire suddenly appeared out of nowhere, it is NOT true that Claire broke up their family as Marsali told Claire. Jamie wasn't even living with them, and hadn't for quite some time; not to mention the marriage was less than two years old. I remember just being irked every time she called Claire a "hoor."

5 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I disliked Jamie and Claire having separate cabins- seems like a lazy writing trick. 

There's a very good and valid reason for this. It's not the 20th century. It's the 18th century, and until they were married by a priest, Marsali and Fergus' handfast marriage wasn't binding. So it makes perfect sense that Claire and Marsali shared one, while Fergus shared the other with Jamie.

5 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

I am less invested in Claire and Jamie because they seem less invested in each other.

I couldn't disagree more. But I guess Jamie and Claire have become a rorschach test this season.

One thing I loved seeing, before Fergus and Marsali showed up, I think, was when Claire and Jamie are standing right in front of the door that leads below, how Jamie wraps his arms around Claire, and leans in for a kiss (that never happened!), and Claire laughs giddily (it's the same laugh she did last season after Jamie came back from removing the pins from the wheels of the British and setting fire to the wheels), and it just made me smile like a silly loon.

Though this episode isn't as quotable as last week's, there are some guid ones, and I'll have to go back and post them later.

But it's just so typical, that once Jamie and Claire are back in sync or happy, that something happens to separate them again.

What I am verra curious tae know is who is Claire standing in front of when she's wiping color off her lips(?) in the updated opening credits. I've paused it and still can't make out who it is.

[WatchrTina]

12 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Gabaldon has written it a number of times how Claire looks younger than her age.

And she would know.  Diana is older than me and looks younger than me.  I'm trying hard not to hate her for it.

So . . . this morning's shower thoughts were about Fergus and the seeming double-standard of Jamie being upset by his having eloped with Marsali.  Both of them are Jamie's foster-children.  He kens them well.  We LOVE Fergus.  Why isn't Jamie happy?

Well, obviously he's not happy because they were sneaky about it -- hiding the relationship.  And obviously they were sneaky about it because they suspected that people (mainly Laoghaire) would not approve.  Jenny may have accepted this French, one-handed, brothel-born bastard as her "foster son" but Laoghaire's not likely to be equally sanguine to have him as a son-in-law.  And then there's the matter of his job.  He's a smuggler.  Even Ian and Jenny (who are willing to look the other way when the proceeds of Jamie and Fergus' smuggling activities come their way) don't want their son, wee Ian, mixed up in that.  Certainly Laoghaire would not want her daughter marrying into that either.  Even Jamie has reservations about that.  It's a huge double-standard -- not wanting Marsali mixed up kind of life that HE is leading (and that he has now brought Claire into) -- but that's completely human.  "Do as I say, not as I do."  It makes for some good drama.  I like it.

Edited November 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

What I am verra curious tae know is who is Claire standing in front of when she's wiping color off her lips(?) in the updated opening credits. I've paused it and still can't make out who it is.

It looks like Jamie to me, if it's the same clip I'm thinking of.  I wouldn't have said she's wiping color off of her lips though, just has a washcloth she runs along her lips.  I assumed it's from the turtle soup scene or thereabouts.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The Giddy Laugh!

 

[FnkyChkn34]

I was going to quote the post, but I can't find it now...  Re: Jamie's comments on the docks at the very beginning:  I wasn't confused, so maybe that means I don't understand?  Or I missed something?  Claire asked if Jamie told Jenny and Ian yet, and he says no.  So they still think they are traveling to France which buys them time. But, he did write them a letter explaining everything.  So I assumed that he was sending the letter as they left, and mail in that age probably would take weeks to get to them?  So Jenny and Ian will eventually know, but Jamie and Claire will be well on their way to rescuing them by they time they do know.  (I think that's what they did in the books, too, but I can't entirely recall.)

[toolazy]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was going to quote the post, but I can't find it now...  Re: Jamie's comments on the docks at the very beginning:  I wasn't confused, so maybe that means I don't understand?  Or I missed something?  Claire asked if Jamie told Jenny and Ian yet, and he says no.  So they still think they are traveling to France which buys them time. But, he did write them a letter explaining everything.  So I assumed that he was sending the letter as they left, and mail in that age probably would take weeks to get to them?  So Jenny and Ian will eventually know, but Jamie and Claire will be well on their way to rescuing them by they time they do know.  (I think that's what they did in the books, too, but I can't entirely recall.)

Yes. In the book, Jamie delays writing Jenny until he has a plan in place to go after him.  So, basically after they've arranged things with Jared and are about to leave on the Artemis. 

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Yes. In the book, Jamie delays writing Jenny until he has a plan in place to go after him.  So, basically after they've arranged things with Jared and are about to leave on the Artemis. 

OK, thanks for clarifying.  So I guess I fail to see what was confusing about that scene?  Or why people are criticizing Sam/Jamie for it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

27 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

OK, thanks for clarifying.  So I guess I fail to see what was confusing about that scene?  Or why people are criticizing Sam/Jamie for it.

Probably because of the line he said he’d already written to Jenny explaining everything. It came off as maybe either lying to her again, or telling her that Wee Ian was kidnapped BEFORE they met with Jared-before he had a plan of action?

To clarify: I didn’t have any problem with the line.

Edited November 13, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Well, obviously he's not happy because they were sneaky about it -- hiding the relationship.  And obviously they were sneaky about it because they suspected that people (mainly Laoghaire) would not approve.  Jenny may have accepted this French, one-handed, brothel-born bastard as her "foster son" but Laoghaire's not likely to be equally sanguine to have him as a son-in-law.  And then there's the matter of his job.  He's a smuggler.  Even Ian and Jenny (who are willing to look the other way when the proceeds of Jamie and Fergus' smuggling activities come their way) don't want their son, wee Ian, mixed up in that.  Certainly Laoghaire would not want her daughter marrying into that either.  Even Jamie has huge reservations about that.  It's a huge double-standard -- not wanting Marsali mixed up kind of life that HE is leading (and that now he has brought Claire into) -- but that's completely human.  "Do as I say, not as I do."  It makes for some good drama.  I like it.

The show skipped a book scene that would have clarified some of this, I think.  Book Claire already knows about Fergus and Marsali because Fergus tells her at Lollybroch while people are running around after the shooting waiting on lawyers and he says then that Laoghaire has already flatly rejected his suit because he's a one-handed smuggler with no legitimate job prospects.  Plus the whole brothel born French bastard thing.   Jamie doesn't know about it as this point (Claire does ask.), but even if he doesn't know about the courtship, he surely knows what prevailing local attitudes would be.  Throw in that book Marsali is all of 15 running away from home, things are already in chaos with Laoghaire because Ian's sudden kidnapping means he's running off to the Caribbean for what will probably be at least half a year with her financial settlement still not squared away, and it's not much of a stretch to think he'd rather the whole thing blow over and everyone return home none the wiser if it could be managed.

[FnkyChkn34]

36 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Probably because of the line he said he’d already written to Jenny explaining everything. It came off as maybe either lying to her again, or telling her that Wee Ian was kidnapped BEFORE they met with Jared-before he had a plan of action?

To clarify: I didn’t have any problem with the line.

I took it to mean that he wrote a letter, but not that he necessarily had already sent it.  When he says he "explains everything," I don't think he's lying to anyone.

[Nidratime]

I liked this episode, especially the parts featuring Yi Tien Cho and every time Marsali rolled her eyes. But, the two things that jumped out at me were when Claire suggested that Jamie allow Fergus and Marsali to be together with the hopes that their attraction would fizzle out and the second was when the young captain of the British ship called Claire Mrs. Frasier.

As for the first, Claire must still be in 20th century mode if she thinks it's okay for Marsali to shack up with Fergus just to test the waters, with the hopes that they'll go back to their former lives. That's not going to happen -- for Marsali, at least -- in the 18th century. Claire obviously should know that. So, I wasn't getting quite what she was driving at since Fergus and Marsali were spending time with each other in every other way other than actually sharing a bunk.

As for the second thing, I just can't remember how Claire was addressed during her time on the Porpoise in the book. How ever she was addressed, John Gray never picked up on her being in any way related to Jamie, so either they're going to not have Gray on the boat or they're never going to know each others names. Another thing that bothers me about this is that, when they reach "the new world" Jamie takes a big sigh of relief and finally feels free to introduce himself and Claire as Mr. and Mrs. Frasier. That moment is way less dramatic and meaningful if they're throwing their real names around before then.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Not to be nitpicky, @Nidratime, but it's Fraser. No 'i' only an 'e.'

[nodorothyparker]

Just checked the book.  Claire is introduced as Mrs. Malcolm on the Porpoise and that's how Lord John initially comes to know her.

[aemom]

29 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

As for the first, Claire must still be in 20th century mode if she thinks it's okay for Marsali to shack up with Fergus just to test the waters, with the hopes that they'll go back to their former lives. That's not going to happen -- for Marsali, at least -- in the 18th century. Claire obviously should know that. So, I wasn't getting quite what she was driving at since Fergus and Marsali were spending time with each other in every other way other than actually sharing a bunk.

I don't think that she was suggesting that it was okay for Fergus and Marsali to be shacking up (which wasn't even really okay in 1968 when Claire left), but that Jamie should let them continue to court and see if it fizzled out.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I don't think that she was suggesting that it was okay for Fergus and Marsali to be shacking up (which wasn't even really okay in 1968 when Claire left), but that Jamie should let them continue to court and see if it fizzled out.

I think there were a lot of people shacking up in the 1960's! That being said, I didn't see anyway Jamie could prevent them from courting on a ship where they're bound to run into each other. So, that's why I couldn't understand what she was proposing he allow them to do since the only thing he was preventing them from doing was staying in the same cabin.

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

The show skipped a book scene that would have clarified some of this, I think.  Book Claire already knows about Fergus and Marsali because Fergus tells her at Lollybroch while people are running around after the shooting waiting on lawyers and he says then that Laoghaire has already flatly rejected his suit because he's a one-handed smuggler with no legitimate job prospects.  Plus the whole brothel born French bastard thing.   Jamie doesn't know about it as this point (Claire does ask.), but even if he doesn't know about the courtship, he surely knows what prevailing local attitudes would be.  Throw in that book Marsali is all of 15 running away from home, things are already in chaos with Laoghaire because Ian's sudden kidnapping means he's running off to the Caribbean for what will probably be at least half a year with her financial settlement still not squared away, and it's not much of a stretch to think he'd rather the whole thing blow over and everyone return home none the wiser if it could be managed.

Claire knows that Fergus is sad about a girl but she doesn't know it's Marsali.  She has no idea who it is.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

 

As for the second thing, I just can't remember how Claire was addressed during her time on the Porpoise in the book. How ever she was addressed, John Gray never picked up on her being in any way related to Jamie, so either they're going to not have Gray on the boat or they're never going to know each others names. Another thing that bothers me about this is that, when they reach "the new world" Jamie takes a big sigh of relief and finally feels free to introduce himself and Claire as Mr. and Mrs. Frasier. That moment is way less dramatic and meaningful if they're throwing their real names around before then.

 

She was Mrs Malcolm but someone on the Porpoise recognized Jamie (the one-eyed man from the print shop, I think) so the young captain eventually knew who she was. He makes a note of it in the ship's log, an act for which he later apologizes to Claire.

 

But I'm not sure that this is even a thing in the show.  I believe that they are out to everyone as Frasers.

Edited November 13, 2017 by toolazy

[nodorothyparker]

8 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Claire knows that Fergus is sad about a girl but she doesn't know it's Marsali.  She has no idea who it is.

Crap, you're right.  They talk all about the situation but he never actually names either the girl or her mother.  That's what I get for quoting from the book without double checking first.

[Nidratime]

Quote

But I'm not sure that this is even a thing in the show.  I believe that they are out to everyone as Frasers.

Well, if she runs into John Gray, she should say she's Mrs. Frasier, then. ;-)

[Lady Iris]

How does Jamie not cuff Marsaly over calling Claire a whore? I kept waiting for him to say or do something.

[toolazy]

10 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Well, if she runs into John Gray, she should say she's Mrs. Frasier, then. ;-)

Something tells me he's not on the ship, which is sad but not surprising.  Also, Fraser.

 

7 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

How does Jamie not cuff Marsaly over calling Claire a whore? I kept waiting for him to say or do something.

 

Cuff her? Do you what know that is? Besides, he knows he's not really able to take much of a moral high ride when it comes to Claire.   And it's Marsali.

 

 

12 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Crap, you're right.  They talk all about the situation but he never actually names either the girl or her mother.  That's what I get for quoting from the book without double checking first.

 

No worries.  I only know that because I've read this book way too many times.  Many more times than the others, in fact.

Edited November 13, 2017 by toolazy

[Lady Iris]

4 minutes ago, toolazy said:

11 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

How does Jamie not cuff Marsaly over calling Claire a whore? I kept waiting for him to say or do something.

 

Cuff her? Do you what know that is? Besides, he knows he's not really able to take much of a moral high ride when it comes to Claire.   And it's Marsali.

Cuffing to me means to whack 'em upside the head.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Also, Fraser.

I know. I was reminded already. But *that's* the joke. She's not Mrs. Fraser but Mrs. Frasier. So, clearly not Jamie's wife. See? Ha? Ha?

[toolazy]

28 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Cuffing to me means to whack 'em upside the head.

Yes.  That's what it means.  I'm going to assume you were being hyperbolic and weren't actually suggesting that Jamie whack her upside her head, no matter how provoked he probably felt. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

I think there were a lot of people shacking up in the 1960's! That being said, I didn't see anyway Jamie could prevent them from courting on a ship where they're bound to run into each other. So, that's why I couldn't understand what she was proposing he allow them to do since the only thing he was preventing them from doing was staying in the same cabin.

Including, Claire's own daughter!  Where does she think Roger went after she left...? ;-)

My interpretation of the scene was just that Claire was telling Jamie to stop resisting Fergus' and Marsali's relationship.  If he told them he'd allow it or approve, then they'd be more open and whatnot, to see if it would fizzle out.  I don't think Claire was telling Jamie to let them sleep together, but she did want to share his cabin, afterall...

[Lady Iris]

@toolazy I'm always making with the hyperbolic ;)  I know Jamie would never hit a woman. I was just surprised he didn't at least take umbrage with his step daughter calling Claire a whore.

[toolazy]

33 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I know. I was reminded already. But *that's* the joke. She's not Mrs. Fraser but Mrs. Frasier. So, clearly not Jamie's wife. See? Ha? Ha?

Gotcha.  That's what I get for not paying attention.  

4 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

@toolazy I'm always making with the hyperbolic ;)  I know Jamie would never hit a woman. I was just surprised he didn't at least take umbrage with his step daughter calling Claire a whore.

Well, he would and did hit women - at least one woman - but he's been educated that that's not okay.  Honestly, I think he didn't call her on it because he still feels guilty about the whole situation.  And besides, Fergus told her not to talk about Claire like that, so maybe Jamie didn't feel the need to pile on.  

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

@toolazy I'm always making with the hyperbolic ;)  I know Jamie would never hit a woman. I was just surprised he didn't at least take umbrage with his step daughter calling Claire a whore.

 

6 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Gotcha.  That's what I get for not paying attention.  

Well, he would and did hit women - at least one woman - but he's been educated that that's not okay.  Honestly, I think he didn't call her on it because he still feels guilty about the whole situation.  And besides, Fergus told her not to talk about Claire like that, so maybe Jamie didn't feel the need to pile on.  

Also, he said something like "Claire is none of your concern" and then Fergus said something too.

And I'm not defending what Jamie did (especially in light of our opinions from modern times), but he didn't exactly "hit" her.  He didn't punch her or slap her, right?  Even though she's slapped him many times.  He administered a punishment that was common at the time.  He thought he was teaching her a lesson; he wouldn't just hit a woman for no reason.  Claire needs to stop slapping him, actually.

[TaurusRose]

47 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

Also, he said something like "Claire is none of your concern" and then Fergus said something too.

And I'm not defending what Jamie did (especially in light of our opinions from modern times), but he didn't exactly "hit" her.  He didn't punch her or slap her, right?  Even though she's slapped him many times.  He administered a punishment that was common at the time.  He thought he was teaching her a lesson; he wouldn't just hit a woman for no reason.  Claire needs to stop slapping him, actually.

Bingo.  It’s amazing to me that we don’t hesitate to call Jamie out (or my personal favorite, clutch the pearls) over the mere suggestion that he “cuff” some female, but Claire’s ACTUAL physical violence towards him raises nary an eyebrow. If we’re going to be offended, let’s be offended both ways.

Edited November 13, 2017 by taurusrose

[MsProudSooner]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Just checked the book.  Claire is introduced as Mrs. Malcolm on the Porpoise and that's how Lord John initially comes to know her.

Did I miss the conversation where Jamie tells Claire they should use Malcolm instead of Fraser?  I'm really looking forward to Claire meeting LJG. 

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, AEMom said:

I don't think that she was suggesting that it was okay for Fergus and Marsali to be shacking up (which wasn't even really okay in 1968 when Claire left), but that Jamie should let them continue to court and see if it fizzled out.

Fergus and Marsali are going to be in nearly constant company for weeks on end. 18th c ships are tiny!  For all intents and purposes they are shacking up...without the sex unless they are very sneaky.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, MsProudSooner said:

Did I miss the conversation where Jamie tells Claire they should use Malcolm instead of Fraser?  I'm really looking forward to Claire meeting LJG. 

The only time Jamie told/reminded Claire that she was "Mrs. Malcolm" was in "A. Malcolm" as he left to go meet with whoever (I can't recall; Fergus, maybe?), while she was abed in the brothel. 

[CalamityBoPeep]

23 hours ago, OftenPerplexed said:

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

 

23 hours ago, morgan said:

It’s funny, sometimes, even most of the time,  I think Sam is amazing.  And sometimes....not so much.  And yeah I wince a bit.

 

 

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 

On those few occasions where I feel like something is going wrong in his scenes I think it is almost always the fault of the writing.  I've already said I don't understand the way he played the conversation on the dock with Claire (where Ian is mentioned) but the blame for that can be placed squarely on the writers.  None of us (viewers) are sure what it was Jamie told Jenny & Ian in the letter.  The folks in the unsullied thread are REALLY confused. That's the fault of the writing, not the acting.

 

I've noticed Sam's delivery too, and I think it's a combination of factors. The other Scottish actors rarely have to deliver a paragraph of lines that are meant to sound poetic, all at once. Most of them get to play off other actors, so their conversations sound more natural, in general. Add to that, the effort the writers are making of keeping some of the dialogue from the books intact, which doesn't actually lend itself to the spoken word very well... and Sam's fighting an uphill battle. Plus there's the tendency on the part of Scots (about 1/2 my family) to slowing down their speech a bit when they're speaking to Americans, in order not to lose us. When Hubby & I went to introduce him to that side of my family (many, many moons ago) he had the devil of a time trying to translate what some of my broader-speaking cousins were saying, if they spoke at their normal rate. I even had some trouble on occasion, and my own mother is a Scot! So, I think the sheer weight of the lines, (in number and text), combines with Sam's awareness that he needs to try to stay somewhat understandable, slowing him down a lot. The other Scottish actors get to be more "normal" since they aren't trying to create the "King of Men."

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

 

Black Sails fans, did anyone else think the cook looked like Randall, the cook who loses his job to Silver?  Maybe all 18thc ships cooks look the same.  Was that ship the Walrus?

 

 

19 hours ago, Squirrely said:

 I also missed the ship's one legged cook whose name escapes me at the moment. He always livened things up!

 

Our Randall had one leg! And yep, when I heard a line delivered in the preview, I had to check imdb! It's Randall, y'all! (His character is called Bernard Cosworth in this.) We've missed you, you old loon! Back home... only not serving on the Walrus (that was the Artemis, in this case), but on the Spanish (now British ;-) ) galleon. Can't wait to see what other Black Sails Easter eggs are in store for us. 

Also... loved the new opening credits. Loved Jamie & Claire. Love Fergus & Marsali. Loved the whole episode, really.

Edited November 13, 2017 by CalamityBoPeep
Why do I only notice the mistakes after I hit "submit"?

[jzygayle]

9 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I love the way they've handled Yi Ten Cho. Before the season started, I was honestly hoping they would write him out because the book character was such an uncomfortable caricature but it's like the show writers took the couple of honest, human, dignified moments he was allowed in the book and turned that into the character and the result (thanks to actor and writers) is lovely. 

YAAAAASSSSSSSSSS.  I'm so glad they didn't keep the original and horrific caricature.

[GingerMarie]

I remember a conversation that Jamie and Claire had about the 'changeling ' and the 'fairies' taking the baby and she was just shocked and outraged that anyone would believe that and Jamie told her 'it's not what you believe but it is what they believe and it makes them feel better.  The Captain pretty much told her the same thing about the superstitions of his crew.  Does not matter what you or I believe but what they believe.  

[MadameKillerB]

ok so I watched it and managed to plug my ears while the vomiting was going on. My fiance helped me with the timing ;) 

I think the conversation here about Sam's acting is so interesting! You all are so insightful! I wonder too if there is some anxiety about the rabid fandom for his character. Do you think that plays into it as well? Does he feel constrained not just by the writing but by the anxiety to please fans while also honing his craft? Just musing out loud, er, in type.

Personal note: I've been letting my grays grow out and my fiance (who is 10yrs younger than I am) told me the other day how he liked all the different colors in my hair. And then to have Jamie tell Claire he liked her grays! My fiance turned to me and said, 'SEE?!' :) 

[WatchrTina]

3 hours ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

And yep, when I heard a line delivered in the preview, I had to check imdb! It's Randall, y'all! (His character is called Bernard Cosworth in this.)

Oh, this just fills my little Black-Sails-missing heart with joy.  I had already heard that many of the un-named sailors in the background were also on Black Sails -- especially the rigging specialists who do the raising & lowering of sails on camera.  Now if they can just come up with a reason to bring Winston Chong (Joji, the silent, katana-wielding, Samurai pirate) into Outlander, that would just make my day. But it's not likely. He's a little too distinctive for a background player.

Edited November 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, WatchrTina said:

Oh, this just fills my little Black-Sails-missing heart with joy.  I had already heard that many of the un-named sailors in the background were also on Black Sails -- especially the rigging specialists who do the raising & lowering of sails on camera.  Now if they can just come up with a reason to bring Winston Chong (Joji, the silent, katana-wielding, Samurai pirate) into the show, that would just make my day. But it's not likely. He's a little too distinctive for a background player.

Billy Bones, please? ;-)

[WatchrTina]

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Billy Bones, please? ;-)

Ooooh Tom Hopper -- he of the massive biceps.  When his Game of Thrones character was flambéed by a dragon I began hoping that he would be chosen for the role of a certain wicked smuggler who turns up in Book 4 of Outlander but, alas, that role has already been cast with another actor.

And now, in an effort to make this post episode-relevant, I loved the way the very ending was shot only from Claire's perspective.  You were left to imagine Jamie's reaction.  Remember he swore he was going to keep an eye on the plague ship the whole time Claire was on it.  Now I can't wait to see that same moment shot from the opposite angle.  Jamie is going to LOSE it.

Edited November 14, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Keeta]

Regarding Sam's acting, my biggest criticism is that whenever he's supposed to be Thinking or Plotting, he acts with his eyebrows and eye muscles (squinting) A LOT. It has the effect not of looking crafty or intelligent as Jamie is often described as being (when he needs to), but of someone who's just trying too hard. It's not convincing, and he goes to the same well too often.

That being said, he's been able to access some very impressive depths of emotion in less "plot-driven" scenes, which has been quite lovely.

[Nidratime]

Quote

That being said, he's been able to access some very impressive depths of emotion in less "plot-driven" scenes, which has been quite lovely.

He was getting kudos all over the place (media and fans) for his acting during the first half of this season, so that's why I'm puzzled by the sudden notion that his acting is not up to snuff. And, I wasn't even a part of the audience giving him all those kudos. This is just a head scratcher for me.

[Clawdette]

I haven't noticed a problem with Sam's acting, either.  But one thing I have noticed is how he sometimes is able to make his eyes - from a certain angle - appear slightly slanted.  I wondered if he was trying to affect a book characteristic but I've noticed this probably two-three times each season.

I'm no expert, although I did take a course in Book Reviewing and Dramatic Criticism as part of my Journalism course of study a million years ago.  In addition to Sam's interpretation and the writing, we also have to add in the director's take on how scenes are portrayed.  It's a bricolage.  

[FnkyChkn34]

I swear that I read somewhere or heard in an interview that they gave Sam a forehead prosthetic as part of aging him. If so, that could be affecting his eye movements. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I swear that I read somewhere or heard in an interview that they gave Sam a forehead prosthetic as part of aging him. If so, that could be affecting his eye movements. 

Yes, they did. Sam mentioned it in one of the magazine interviews.