RazzleberryPie September 6, 2015 Share September 6, 2015 I can usually distinguish Mia's choreography, and some of Stephanie's. I totally agree they can easily mix in some new styles with the tradition and freshen things up far more. Link to comment
sleepyjean September 7, 2015 Author Share September 7, 2015 (edited) I just found this old video of an interview with Kelli during the 1996 DCC auditions. I think Kelli said it was a month long process (I was having a hard time paying attention to what she was saying. I was too busy trying to figure out if that was Shelly Bramhall in the black/dark blue leotard behind her.) But she never mentions training camp, so I wonder if it existed at that time, and if not, when it started. At the end of the video, there's a shot of Judy teaching choreo while wearing the infamous DCC "buckle bike-tard". Possibly the most hideous garment ever worn by the team. Classic! I have to say, Judy and Kelli both look very much like they did 19 years ago. Edited September 7, 2015 by sleepyjean 2 Link to comment
Gigi88 September 7, 2015 Share September 7, 2015 My eye is always drawn to Jacie in that video. She always gives it something extra. Link to comment
KellyAnn3 September 7, 2015 Share September 7, 2015 I just found this old video of an interview with Kelli during the 1996 DCC auditions. Judy was up out of a chair and demonstrating moves! This is interesting, even if the choreography is kind of blah. It reminds me of some of the choreography I had to do in high school colorguard because less than half of the girls could actually dance. I have to wonder if the dances have gotten harder since Judy stopped actually choreographing them or what. Link to comment
caligirl50 September 7, 2015 Share September 7, 2015 In the What Are They Thinking video (yes it was mean), but I have to say this (and it's dumb): Christina's brown dance outfit is perhaps the prettiest I have ever seen since this show began since 2005 (is that right?). And we've all seen A LOT of outfits. Love it! 1 Link to comment
Elizabeth9 September 7, 2015 Share September 7, 2015 I liked Christina in the brown too Link to comment
bigskygirl September 9, 2015 Share September 9, 2015 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders in Oxnard. Link to comment
Beana8 September 9, 2015 Share September 9, 2015 I think they consider the stage show that they do at USO tours like the equivalent of a Broadway musical in that the dance routines never change no matter who is doing it. As for the sideline routines they just mix the same 10-15 moves in different orders. I can imagine why some of the girls make mistakes. At least they aren't doing the Jazz moves like they did in the 70's. And im sure they have to really think about each new move they incorporate into their style. Is it right for their brand? Is it too overtly sexual? Link to comment
ByTor September 9, 2015 Share September 9, 2015 Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders in Oxnard. Who's the blonde in the back (looks like 3rd from the left)? Her arm movements seem to be a little "off" from everyone else. Link to comment
Oranaiche September 9, 2015 Share September 9, 2015 Who's the blonde in the back (looks like 3rd from the left)? Her arm movements seem to be a little "off" from everyone else. Melissa and Kinzie are both on the left. Kinzie is closer to the center. Not sure which one you mean though because Lacey is third from left for most of the routine. Link to comment
ByTor September 9, 2015 Share September 9, 2015 (edited) Melissa and Kinzie are both on the left. Kinzie is closer to the center. Not sure which one you mean though because Lacey is third from left for most of the routine. I got a little mixed up, I thought it was 2 rows but now it looks like 3. It looks like she's the 2nd from the left in the back. Edited September 9, 2015 by ByTor Link to comment
KellyAnn3 September 11, 2015 Share September 11, 2015 I got a little mixed up, I thought it was 2 rows but now it looks like 3. It looks like she's the 2nd from the left in the back. That's definitely Melissa. I did notice a few times where she was behind a few seconds on some of her arm motions. I wouldn't hold it against her, though, because it looks like it was WINDY that day and their hair kept blowing into their faces. She probably got temporarily disoriented. 1 Link to comment
rose711 September 11, 2015 Share September 11, 2015 I just found this old video of an interview with Kelli during the 1996 DCC auditions. I think Kelli said it was a month long process (I was having a hard time paying attention to what she was saying. I was too busy trying to figure out if that was Shelly Bramhall in the black/dark blue leotard behind her.) But she never mentions training camp, so I wonder if it existed at that time, and if not, when it started. At the end of the video, there's a shot of Judy teaching choreo while wearing the infamous DCC "buckle bike-tard". Possibly the most hideous garment ever worn by the team. Classic! I have to say, Judy and Kelli both look very much like they did 19 years ago.Wow. Thanks for posting that. It's amazing how far they have come in 20 (or so) years. I liked that even then Kellie had the attitude that every year she wanted to squad to be better . She definitely had ideas and plans for improving the team every year. 1 Link to comment
Beden September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this but I saw an editorial in today's New York Times and wondered if/how this could affect the DCC. Are these women paid? Do they receive any benefits/health insurance or anything? Thoughts? Anyone know anything about this? The Opinion Pages | Op-Ed ContributorsCheerleaders, Until They See Their N.F.L. Paychecks By NILY ROZIC and LORENA GONZALEZSEPT. 11, 2015 AS the National Football League starts a new season, millions of Americans will settle in for the next five months to enjoy the thrill of pro football. Forty-five percent of those fans are female, and the league has spent millions of dollars in recent years trying to increase its appeal among women. And yet, one high-profile group of women in the multibillion-dollar N.F.L. is still waiting for fair treatment. Cheerleaders are often paid well below minimum wage and aren’t given the most basic protections that every employee deserves. The issue is gaining traction. In just the last two years, professional cheerleaders for the Oakland Raiders, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, New York Jets, Buffalo Bills and Cincinnati Bengals have filed wage theft lawsuits against their respective teams, alleging labor violations including misclassification, meaning that some cheerleaders were treated as independent contractors, not as employees, and therefore didn’t receive the wages or benefits they deserved. (So far, the Raiders and Buccaneers have settled lawsuits by agreeing to pay more than $2 million in back wages.) These recent complaints reveal a pattern of abuse, including failure to pay in a timely manner or at all, failure to reimburse for mandatory expenses or to adhere to basic requirements under state labor laws, and unlawful deductions from earnings, including penalties for minor infractions such as forgetting pompoms. According to the complaints, the cheerleaders often worked hundreds of hours for less than minimum wage and without overtime, workers’ compensation coverage or lunch breaks. Women reported cheering while injured for fear of being kicked off the squad. Many teams required them to go to approved vendors for out-of-pocket expenses, often amounting to thousands of dollars. Teams mandated specific hairstyles, nails, clothing and makeup, and strictly monitored weight. Minor slip-ups could result in fines. Meanwhile, teams marketed their cheerleaders at live events and on calendars and other merchandise for profit. That’s why we introduced legislation in California and New York to address the rampant misclassification of professional cheerleaders as independent contractors. Misclassification of employees has become an increasingly widespread and pernicious tool to undercut basic labor protections. In July, Gov. Jerry Brown signed the California bill into law, designating cheerleaders as employees entitled to minimum wages and other benefits. Lawmakers from Illinois, Maryland, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Texas have signed a letter voicing their support for cheerleader equity. But we shouldn’t have to pass special laws and file lawsuits to get the N.F.L. to do the right thing. In 2014, the N.F.L. had estimated revenues of more than $9 billion, and its commissioner, Roger Goodell, has a stated goal of reaching $25 billion by 2027. Most of that revenue goes to the teams, which now have a combined estimated value of $46 billion, according to Forbes. The league’s least valuable franchise, the St. Louis Rams, is worth well over $900 million. And many of those teams benefit from public largess. Even the Dallas Cowboys — at $3.2 billion, the nation’s most valuable sports franchise — got $325 million in tax-exempt public money to help build its new stadium, which opened in 2009. Nice work if you can get it.Compared with those numbers, the cost of paying N.F.L. cheerleaders even a minimum wage would amount to little more than a rounding error. However, the problem goes beyond wage theft to reveal a more insidious sexism that seems to be part of the culture of the N.F.L. Testifying recently in the California Assembly, Caitlin Yates, a former Raiderette, said that cheerleaders were benched without pay if they gained weight, and forced into situations where they were sexually harassed. In their lawsuit, the Buffalo Bills’ cheerleaders allege that they had to walk around in bikinis at a casino event called “The Man Show” to promote the team, and at a local golf tournament men bid on which cheerleaders would ride in their golf carts. The lawsuit also describes strict rules for everything from hair color to etiquette (how much bread to eat at a formal dinner, for example), personal hygiene, including the use of tampons, and restrictions on what other jobs the cheerleaders could accept. Professional cheerleading is incredibly competitive and skilled work, requiring hours of practice and training. Not everyone makes the cut, and the women who do take obvious pride in their work. In the rest of the world, we don’t dock your pay just because you enjoy your job. Nor do we expect you to work for free or even pay for the privilege of working. The league has an opportunity now to address these troubling conditions by setting an explicit policy for teams that recognizes and respects the value that cheerleaders create. Not only would it spare us all the state-by-state fight, drawn out over years, to pass a patchwork of laws; it would also send a clear signal to football’s fan base, including millions of women, that one of the nation’s iconic institutions believes in fair play both on and off the field. 2 Link to comment
Dopeydwarf September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 Kelli mentioned that they are paid. I think that's why she has capped the number of DCCs they can have-probably in the budget. Don't know about insurance, though. Link to comment
Beden September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 Does anyone know what their pay is per game? Are they compensated for the several months of training camp? What happens if they blow out a knee and require surgery? I'm not aiming for trolling or slamming anyone here, I'm genuinely curious. We've seen women who quit their jobs to concentrate on TC--how do they live? They've been accepted into TC, which is sorta/kinda like being interns. I believe that usually interns in a company are paid--not a lot, granted, but they receive some $. And, as mentioned in that editorial, the Cowboys are a multi billion $ organization; I can't believe that 3 dozen cheerleaders salaries would make much of a dent in their budget. I suspect that # of cheerleaders being capped has more to do with having a manageable # to deal with in regards of choreography and general management. Link to comment
Dccfan126 September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 I still feel like there is an elephant in the room the Cowboys will never address. Of course these girls can quit their job -- they are being paid at least something by CMT. Link to comment
bigskygirl September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 I do not believe the girls get paid by CMT or while they are in training camp because they have not officially made the team yet. They make $175? for each home game and get paid a certain amount due to the number of years on the team for certain appearances. Link to comment
RazzleberryPie September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 Does anyone know what their pay is per game? Are they compensated for the several months of training camp? What happens if they blow out a knee and require surgery? I'm not aiming for trolling or slamming anyone here, I'm genuinely curious. We've seen women who quit their jobs to concentrate on TC--how do they live? They've been accepted into TC, which is sorta/kinda like being interns. I believe that usually interns in a company are paid--not a lot, granted, but they receive some $. And, as mentioned in that editorial, the Cowboys are a multi billion $ organization; I can't believe that 3 dozen cheerleaders salaries would make much of a dent in their budget. I suspect that # of cheerleaders being capped has more to do with having a manageable # to deal with in regards of choreography and general management. Many internships, actually most in media, entertainment, marketing, etc., do NOT pay interns. For college internships, the compensation is college credits or work experience. I'd like to see exactly how much $$ they directly bring into the organization from appearances, camps, merchandise, CMT show, etc., plus adding to the game day experience. If they paid 36 girls $25K, and let's say it costs the org $40k per girl if you factor in benefits, then it's about $1.44M to keep 36 full time. That's without travel, costumes, music rights, choregraphers, hair and makeup, etc. - which I know a lot of the cosmetic things are comped. My estimate is that they'd need to bring in $3 M to sustain them as fulltime employees at a low yearly income. For most for-profit businesses, sustaining and not profiting isn't worth maintaining. I think they could easily bring in $3-4M if they don't already, especially if a real salary would free up more girls to do more appearances, teach more DCC classes/camps, etc. Link to comment
Beden September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 What you say makes sense (but...sorry) I spent 30+ years in professional theater on the tech side of things and I was always paid back in my student days doing summer stock--ie, interning for money and no credits but had something to put on a resume. Okay, it wasn't much, I shared crummy apartments with multiple other interns but we were still paid. Also, I'd think that DCC would pay for themselves in PR, personal appearances, calendar sales and all of that kind of things, assuming your reasonable #'s are in the ballpark. But does anyone actually know about this? Link to comment
RazzleberryPie September 12, 2015 Share September 12, 2015 What you say makes sense (but...sorry) I spent 30+ years in professional theater on the tech side of things and I was always paid back in my student days doing summer stock--ie, interning for money and no credits but had something to put on a resume. Okay, it wasn't much, I shared crummy apartments with multiple other interns but we were still paid. Also, I'd think that DCC would pay for themselves in PR, personal appearances, calendar sales and all of that kind of things, assuming your reasonable #'s are in the ballpark. But does anyone actually know about this? Your summer stock WAS a paying job, and you were compensated with cash, not college credit. I always, fortunately, took marketing/pr internships that did pay, but most of the TV, magazine, event planning, etc., internships absolutely did not pay. The fields were highly competitive and you were lucky to be there and should be grateful, or at least that was the philosophy. I had quite a few friends who did the Disney Experience or whatever they called it, where they were usually some sort of customer service, host, or character, and they were paid in room, boarding and college credit as temporary interns. That's how Disney gets around a lot of labor laws, but I digress. Anyway.....I think a franchise as popular as the Dallas Cowboys, and with DCC being the creme de la creme of pro cheerleading, they could easily pay 36 girls fulltime and make a reasonable profit. Not sure how that would go with say, the Tennessee Titans or Jacksonville Jaguars (smaller cities, less of a fan base, unknown cheerleaders, etc.), but the Cowboys could definitely make it happen. Link to comment
PrincessLeia September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 Kelli mentioned that they are paid. I think that's why she has capped the number of DCCs they can have-probably in the budget. Don't know about insurance, though. The Cowboys are the world's either first or second most valuable franchise. We are talking billions of dollars. I'm sure they have a budget, but you'd think it would be a pretty good one. Link to comment
Law Mom September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 Couple of issues: First, unpaid internships are probably illegal and will likely come to an end in the next few years. Recent lawsuits have resulted in judgments or settlement for the interns. Second, I just wanted to share these IG videos posted by Michelle Keys. My DD just took her first prep class at Kitty Carter's and she absolutely loved Michelle! https://instagram.com/michelleckeys/?hl=en Link to comment
Luvdallas September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 Not a fan of Michelle. Unpaid internships will never go away. They have been a fact of life for so many years. If the college kids of today worked harder and didn't complain so much maybe they would have better chances of jobs! Everyone wants everything handed to them. Link to comment
MaryWebGirl September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 I don't see what unpaid internships have to do with the DCC. An internship is supposed to be a learning experience to provide training for a job. This IS the job. And supposedly they're the best of the best, so they should be compensated appropriately. 1 Link to comment
Oranaiche September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 I don't see what unpaid internships have to do with the DCC. An internship is supposed to be a learning experience to provide training for a job. This IS the job. And supposedly they're the best of the best, so they should be compensated appropriately. The unpaid internship discussion started in relation to training camp, which the girls don't get paid for. Link to comment
cashandprizes September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 I think they consider the stage show that they do at USO tours like the equivalent of a Broadway musical in that the dance routines never change no matter who is doing it. As for the sideline routines they just mix the same 10-15 moves in different orders. I can imagine why some of the girls make mistakes. At least they aren't doing the Jazz moves like they did in the 70's. And im sure they have to really think about each new move they incorporate into their style. Is it right for their brand? Is it too overtly sexual? They don't perform on USO tours anymore. Link to comment
ClosetBachJunkie September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 I posted this question in another thread, but it either got missed or no one knows the answer. What does Show Group do with the extra routines they learn if they don't perform them on USO tours? I've often wondered why they need such technically trained dancers for Show Group when, from what I've seen, they only do sideline dances, Thunderstruck, or Loud whenever they're doing an appearance. Link to comment
PrincessLeia September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 They don't perform on USO tours anymore. They don't? I thought show group went on a USO tour every year. Link to comment
cashandprizes September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 They don't? I thought show group went on a USO tour every year. They go on a USO tour every year, they just no longer perform. Link to comment
RazzleberryPie September 13, 2015 Share September 13, 2015 Couple of issues: First, unpaid internships are probably illegal and will likely come to an end in the next few years. Recent lawsuits have resulted in judgments or settlement for the interns. Second, I just wanted to share these IG videos posted by Michelle Keys. My DD just took her first prep class at Kitty Carter's and she absolutely loved Michelle! https://instagram.com/michelleckeys/?hl=en Unpaid internships are legal (currently). Maybe not ethical, but legal. I really hope unpaid ones do become illegal. When I was in college, you earned something like 1 hour credit for every 100 hours in the internship, for up to 6 hours per semester. Students, of course, had to pay for their credit hours. I realize this differs from school to school, and from internship to internship. Your 'payment' was obtaining the college credit. The better internships, in my opinion, also paid hourly or a stipend, but a lot of the more glamourous, competitive (think The Devil Wears Prada) internships absolutely did not pay a dime. This was ESPECIALLY true for broadcasting internships, and the infamous Disney internships (which IMO violate a whole lot of labor and immigration laws). Relating back to the DCC and training camp - to me, internship/apprenticeship experience is ALWAYS tied to a school. Interns and apprentices get some kind of credit toward a degree or program. DCC training camp doesn't fall under that, so I don't think they could be considered interns. Maybe for the girls who teach DCC camps or create choreography, they could get some sort of college dance credit, but just for auditioning in camp, nope. BTW - glad your daughter loves Kitty's prep classes. They look difficult, but are the absolute best training for someone who aspires to be a DCC. She'll be putting her name and face in front of the organization and learning their style. Good luck to her. I hope we see her in uniform soon. Michelle's choreograph looks difficult (intricate and technical, plus a lot of style). Love to see her work. They don't perform on USO tours anymore. Why not? 1 Link to comment
cashandprizes September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 Why not? They used to do two USO Tours a year. Now only one with kids clinics and sit and signs, no performances allowed. Link to comment
MyFavShows September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 Hopefully this is the right place to post this, but the bios and photos of this seasons squad are up on the main site. Boy are a lot of those pictures bad. I can only count about 5 or 6 that I think are good pictures. Many make the cheerleader look significantly less attractive than they are. I'd be asking for a makeup pic if I were some of them. Do K and J pick which shot is the cameo, or does the DCC get to pick? Link to comment
KellyAnn3 September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 They used to do two USO Tours a year. Now only one with kids clinics and sit and signs, no performances allowed. I just don't understand why they aren't allowed to perform anymore. Their repertoire seems like it's innocent enough for military members if it's allowed on TV. Link to comment
caligirl50 September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 I wonder if something happened on a tour so they were asked to stop? I'm being dramatic but it doesn't make any sense. 1 Link to comment
Dccfan126 September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 I actually don't think it's that dramatic, because one of my thoughts was they aren't dancing anymore on tour because injury and liability issues. I am still confused about the insurance issues on these girls. They make them see Cowboys doctors -- what if their insurance doesn't cover a Cowboys doctor or recommended surgeon? I am guessing their were one too many blown ACLs on USO tours -- Brooke, Cassie, who knows who else. Who pays for that? Do you put someone with a blown ACL on a plane back to America? What if your personal insurance doesn't handle an injury like that out of the country? I mean, I doubt Bar Method offers stellar health benefits. Link to comment
Oranaiche September 15, 2015 Share September 15, 2015 I don't think the girls pay for the doctors that the organization provides them with. Pretty sure those costs are covered by the Cowboys. Link to comment
LaurenBrook September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 (edited) OMG...I'm a terrible person but I cannot stop laughing at this...WHHHHATTTTT!! did they actually put their voices in after filming? I swear no one's mouth is moving and it's the same little squeals and whatnot (first exercise segment). Is this the video people PAID for at one time?! um yeah, this is how the girls get so fit!! hahaha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nB6j2acK4E ETA ok the hair/makeup part is sort of cute at the end. i miss those girls :( Edited September 22, 2015 by LaurenBrook Link to comment
Gigi88 September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 Ugh I had forgotten how incredibly annoying Ally was. 3 Link to comment
Oranaiche September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 The first part of that video is just uncomfortable to watch. It's night and day when you compare Ally and Megan Fox. Megan is so much more natural. 1 Link to comment
MyFavShows September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 Omg that video. They do not come off as very bright compared to the current girls :/. Also, the timing in the pom pom group dance was, to quote Judy, "a mess". Exercises were not very challenging either - I really doubt my body would end up looking like theirs after doing them ;). Link to comment
Dopeydwarf September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 Hey, I have that DVD and the Boot Camp(Power Squad Bod) one too! See, what you do is turn the volume down and put on other music. and when nobody is home, you can be a DCC if you pretend. The only problem is i am 63, and have the wavy under the arm arm thing , and it works against your count, kind of a resonative effect. :) I really wish it came with a complimentary out fit with a top that says "Wanna be DCC"" 5 Link to comment
RazzleberryPie September 22, 2015 Share September 22, 2015 I remember that DVD! It was fun, and I remember seeing an interview or maybe something on the DVD about how they filmed it over and over, with no music and just a metronome, and then added sound later. I also remember thinking Britney Evans had the most annoying, cartoonish voice that shouldn't come out of any adult woman's mouth, but Kandi Harris has a similar one. Just not as bad. And Ali......oh, Ali,......she definitely comes off as fake, and this was way before the whole Cassie/Ally calling that TCC out. While I'm being mean and cold (after yesterday's comments on Loni looking trashy), I have to throw in that my gut reaction to Aly, is that she's a good dancer, has a good build, but that voice and those mannerisms scream out "I know I'm not a pretty girl, but if I try to act and sound like one, nobody will notice that I'm not, and I'll fit right in." For the most part, it worked for her. 1 Link to comment
RazzleberryPie September 28, 2015 Share September 28, 2015 DFW - CBS affiliate interview with Kelsie about her job as a medical device sales rep. Not sure why she's in the operating room as much as she says (not that she'd have a reason to lie, I just don't get it) but for what it's worth: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/video/3297901-a-dallas-cowboys-cheerleader-who-operates-on-and-off-field/?sf13487641=1&sf13487667=1 Link to comment
RhiRhi September 28, 2015 Share September 28, 2015 DFW - CBS affiliate interview with Kelsie about her job as a medical device sales rep. Not sure why she's in the operating room as much as she says (not that she'd have a reason to lie, I just don't get it) but for what it's worth: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/video/3297901-a-dallas-cowboys-cheerleader-who-operates-on-and-off-field/?sf13487641=1&sf13487667=1 It is weird but all medical device sales people I know are in the OR for all operations with their devices. They are actually on call a lot. 1 Link to comment
ByTor September 28, 2015 Share September 28, 2015 I know they try to push the brains & beauty thing, but the story was introduced as though she's a surgeon. Link to comment
MyFavShows September 28, 2015 Share September 28, 2015 Good for her - I know I couldn't stomach that stuff. She looks absolutely gorgeous in the cheer footage too - IMO she's probably the prettiest DCC now that Emma and Jackie have retired. At least top 3. Link to comment
sleepyjean September 28, 2015 Author Share September 28, 2015 The DCC love to participate in this kind of "beauty and brains" piece, as someone called it. There was also another one upthread about one of the girls being an entrepreneur in the area of fitness and health supplements. These "Look , it's a DCC with an actual career!" articles tend to exaggerate, but they are interesting because they are the exception. The DCC organization likes to promote the idea that the DCC are "well-rounded" when the very nature of this organization, particularly the schedule, is a significant disincentive to significant regular involvement in anything other than DCC. Women with children, 8 to 5 professional careers, or serious involvement in community, philanthropic, religious organizations, etc. are comparatively rare. 1 Link to comment
Elizabeth9 September 28, 2015 Share September 28, 2015 Actually, a lot of the girls have careers. I'd say at least 50%. Link to comment
sleepyjean September 28, 2015 Author Share September 28, 2015 (edited) That depends on what you call a professional career. I suspect our definitions differ. Edited September 28, 2015 by sleepyjean 1 Link to comment
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