S13.E04: The Big Empty

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And Dean left Sam alone last week to go on a hunt with Jody.  I just don't think it's a good idea, personally.  This is Satan's son we're talking about.  I wish the writers wouldn't have them forget that piece of information so readily.

So then, them hunting separately shouldn't be a problem. I don't think Dean IS forgetting he's Lucifer's son, but I think Sam wants to believe it doesn't it matter.

[catrox14]

Seriously, how did neither Sam nor Dean ping shapeshifter from the get go. I hate it when they are stupid at their jobs.

[MysteryGuest]

But they really don't hunt separately on this show, so I can't make myself crazy wishing that they would.  It's been done a handful of times, but it's just not what this show is about.  And even though they've done it, I think it's absurd for either one of them to really be alone with Jack right now.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

But they really don't hunt separately on this show, so I can't make myself crazy wishing that they would.  It's been done a handful of times, but it's just not what this show is about.  And even though they've done it, I think it's absurd for either one of them to really be alone with Jack right now.

They have hunted separately every season of this show for lesser reasons than fighting over the potential evil of Satan's Spawn.

To me this is just a way for Dabb to make sure that mean Dean acquiesces to kind Sam about woobie Jack. So to me it bothersome. But we can agree to disagree.

[devlin123]

Can someone please explain to me why Sam thinks Dean had a better relationship with Mary and why he is blaming Dean for reaching out to her only to be ignored and betrayed by her. If I remember correctly Sam was the one who teamed up with her and the BMOL and who shared more intimate moments with her. So instead of putting the blame with Mary, the person who was actually the reason why Sam felt their relationship was lacking, he lashes out at Dean. On another note I love the fact that Dean is self aware enough that he can recognize when is behavior is being hurtful and is big enough to acknowledge the fact

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, devlin123 said:

Can someone please explain to me why Sam thinks Dean had a better relationship with Mary and why he is blaming Dean for reaching out to her only to be ignored and betrayed by her. If I remember correctly Sam was the one who teamed up with her and the BMOL and who shared more intimate moments with her. So instead of putting the blame with Mary, the person who was actually the reason why Sam felt their relationship was lacking, he lashes out at Dean. On another note I love the fact that Dean is self aware enough that he can recognize when is behavior is being hurtful and is big enough to acknowledge the fact

Revisionist history. Seriously. It's a writing fail IMO

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

To me this is just a way for Dabb to make sure that mean Dean acquiesces to kind Sam about woobie Jack. So to me it bothersome. But we can agree to disagree.

Unless they intended to make Jack evil, Dean was always going to have to come around on his opinion of him, or he'd end up looking foolish.  That was pretty much a given.  We absolutely can agree to disagree, but all things considered, I think how they've shown him coming around has been pretty realistic and he hasn't had to be wrong.  He's still in a bad place emotionally and he still doesn't entirely trust Jack, so his original perspective hasn't changed all that much.  He didn't just flip overnight.  I guess we'll see what happens in the next few weeks.

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

Can someone please explain to me why Sam thinks Dean had a better relationship with Mary and why he is blaming Dean for reaching out to her only to be ignored and betrayed by her. If I remember correctly Sam was the one who teamed up with her and the BMOL and who shared more intimate moments with her. So instead of putting the blame with Mary, the person who was actually the reason why Sam felt their relationship was lacking, he lashes out at Dean. On another note I love the fact that Dean is self aware enough that he can recognize when is behavior is being hurtful and is big enough to acknowledge the fact

The dialogue in that scene was definitely written poorly.  I'm going to have to watch the episode again to remember specifics, but I just sort of hand-waved some of it away and decided that Sam was just saying that he never really got a chance to bond with Mary, so he's not ready to give her up yet.  I don't think Dean's ready either, but he did have a prior relationship with her, and he also did get some closure with her at the end.  At no time last season was Mary any more affectionate with Dean than she was with Sam.  She pretty much froze them both out.

[Myrelle]

The first person I always ask said that the Cas scenes were silly and a waste of time; but it was just an addendum to how bad she thought the rest of the episode was. She said that yes, he faced off with himself in the BE, but his doppleganger did something OTT with his voice(her words), then I asked if she felt like he was hamming it up or what, to which she said yes; but the brother stuff was the biggest turn-off for her as I'm sure it would be for me.

[SueB]

Another EXCELLENT episode IMO.  I think this season is on FIRE.  Quick thoughts:

- So very glad that we got an episode that specifically dealt with where each brother is and got them to a better place.

- Loved that Jack was watching Clone Wars!  And yes, good call on Anakin being sucky.   Super happy that Jack called out Sam on the 'can opener' issue.  Sam handled that well.  

- Jack IS afraid of Dean, I think that's warranted and I hope it ends.  Personally, I think Dean WAS channeling John a bit in terms of being tough on Jack.  Channeling John is NOT how Dean acts as a parent -- that's not what Dean was doing.  Dean was intentionally NOT being a parent.  He saw Jack as a liability and a danger. I think he was tough on Jack because this was Dean's version of 'testing Jack'.  And not necessarily consciously, but unconsciously. The comment about using Jack as an intern was spot on IMO.  Would Jack follow orders?  Partially is the answer.  Would Jack work hard? Yes. Would Jack's instincts 'kick in'?  Seems like "no".  Jack didn't automatically respond with a power surge when hit.  And although Jack couldn't use his power "on demand" easily, he clearly didn't activate his powers and 1) stopped the bad guy and 2) saved the good people.   I'm neither praising nor condemning Dean for him channeling John.  I see it as an instinctive 'show of authority'.  Dean is worried Jack will turn evil.  He's worried this is a situation he has no control over the situation (he doesn't).  And Dean's head, right now, is in a numb state.  

- I was particularly proud of Dean for not hiding his feelings - he knows he's transparent to Sam.  He's openly drinking from a flask. He's openly hostile when pushed.  Dean feels numb inside but he's also self-aware. Dean is just letting himself "be" how he feels.  And I like that.  Sam may think it's not healthy -- and it certainly was unkind to Jack (if Jack truly is an innocent) -- but Dean's PAST swallowing.   And I really loved that he told Sam to keep having faith.  That he NEEDS Sam to have faith.  So yes, Dean recognized he's been an ass. It's what he needed to be for a while.  And his relationship with Sam is strong enough to deal with that.  Dean's apology was not REMOTELY forced.  Dean isn't worried about Sam leaving.  Dean apologized because he felt that was the right thing.  I really like that.  

- Sam feeling like Dean was closer to Mary in S12 rang true to me.  Dean may have had a larger conflict with Mary but Dean still managed to not only try and forge even a little bit of a relationship -- to the point where Dean reached out and told Mary he needed to talk to her (before she got brainwashed).  Sam's relationship with Mary felt more distant.  And to me, Mary was much more comfortable with Dean than Sam.  I think she felt overwhelmed at what happened to Sam.  So much so that she didn't even consider the impact of her death on Dean's life.  But Dean got through to her, to really see HIM.  That was a great moment for the two of them.  Sam didn't have that moment.  Not yet.  And yes, we can talk about having a whole year to forge a relationship, but Mary wasn't open to that.  Her guilt was too strong.  It was selfish of Mary and she knew it.  And I don't blame Sam one bit for feeling like he was cheated out of his second chance.  Not by Dean but by circumstance.  And Sam is really afraid to potentially live with that.  We've been here before with Sam -- he could do something really drastically dangerous (like let Lucifer loose) to correct that injustice in his mind.  

- I'm also glad that Sam accepted Dean's apology with no fuss.   And that he opened up about his fears.  Sam and Dean may not be on the same page but at least now they seem to be able to share their grief.  It's SUCH PROGRESS from where they were for the first three episodes.  

-Loved seeing Camille (Mia) again.  Glad she lived.

- I thought the concept of the MOTW was good. I don't think the abusive boyfriend was well flushed out.  He was just a basic jerk.  I don't really get his motivation.  

- Loved LOVED that Jack asked Mia for help and got it.  Twice I shed a tear over Cinnamon Roll Jack (how I see him).  Yes, he could go evil.  I'm just going to enjoy his Cinnamon Roll phase.

Cas:  I think it's the real Cas back.  I'm not sure what damage the Empty did to him but that smile at the sunshine was pure Cas.  I liked that The Empty was Grumpy Cat.  He was Entropy times infinity.  He just wanted to stop and sleep.  I've been grumpy like that.  And Cas could easily annoy the hell out of him.  I thought it was Winchester 101 when Cas realized all he had to do was be annoying and stubborn.  And the Empty (which again, I think is Entropy to the extreme) simply could not tolerate Cas' energy.  He spit him out and went back to sleep.  Works for me. If he could have squashed him he would.  He didn't know how to deal with Cas.  In the history of "EVER", no one had ever woken up.  And apparently even God couldn't pull Cas out of the Empty. I think only the Empty could spit Cas out.  I like the construct.  I suspect we'll see it again.

[Whodunnit]

We saw it when Cas wanted to be a hunter a few seasons back, that Dean on the job is different from Dean at leasure. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

Haven't had time to read anyone elses comments yet (busy work day!) but just a flying post to say that I LOVED this episode. My Dean is back (didn't recognise him last week), great characterisation and writing, great performances from Jared and Jensen (OMG when Jensen/Dean said 'don't say that' like a little boy my heart just melted), great for the brothers relationship with each other and with Jack - who I am really enjoying.

The Cas scenes were a pace dragger for me. I haven't got over my anger at the writers killing him then immediately losing their nerve and telling everyone 'oh but he is not really dead'. It felt manipulative and pointless, so I haven't been able to get on board with Sam and Dean's grief / guilt etc. And the way he is getting brought back (if that is him) is lame IMO.

But the rest was excellent.

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Loved seeing Camille (Mia) again.  Glad she lived.

was she meant to be the same character she was in Into the Mystic? I assumed they were just reusing the actress.

[goldy]

6 hours ago, devlin123 said:

Can someone please explain to me why Sam thinks Dean had a better relationship with Mary and why he is blaming Dean for reaching out to her only to be ignored and betrayed by her. If I remember correctly Sam was the one who teamed up with her and the BMOL and who shared more intimate moments with her. So instead of putting the blame with Mary, the person who was actually the reason why Sam felt their relationship was lacking, he lashes out at Dean. On another note I love the fact that Dean is self aware enough that he can recognize when is behavior is being hurtful and is big enough to acknowledge the fact

I guess its because Mary always felt guilty for making that deal with Azazel and was scared of getting too close to Sam because she wrongly felt he would never forgive her.

I don't think Sam was blaming Dean for anything, he was just trying to explain why it's harder for him to give up the hope for their mom being alive. I feel like sam wanted to be close to Mary, he wanted to have what Dean had with her and he feels like Dean having some kind of a relationship with Mary makes it easier for him to accept her alleged death and since he didn't have the same relationship with Mary, its harder for him to accept the fact that she might be dead so he wants to hang on for the remote posibillity that she might be alive. because it might mean that he would maybe get the chance to have a better relationship with her. 

Maybe one of the reasons Sam joined the BMOL with Mary was because it was his way of trying to get close to her.

[Casseiopeia]

46 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

was she meant to be the same character she was in Into the Mystic? I assumed they were just reusing the actress.

She was the psychic in The Mentalists.  She was about the only thing I liked about that episode.

[nightwing877]

20 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

She was the psychic in The Mentalists.  She was about the only thing I liked about that episode.

Wow, I didn't even notice. Shows how long it has been since I saw that episode. But reusing actors is so common in Supernatural or even X-Files too. I think it comes down to the show being long running, they are bound to reuse people 7 or even a decade later. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

42 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

She was the psychic in The Mentalists.  She was about the only thing I liked about that episode.

Thats what I meant. Wrong ep title. But my question was, is she meant to be the same character? I didn't think so, but someone up thread did.

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Thats what I meant. Wrong ep title. But my question was, is she meant to be the same character? I didn't think so, but someone up thread did.

Her character was killed in The Mentalists.  (Though that doesn't mean anything in SPNland!) :)   But no--different name, not a psychic and the other wasn't a shapeshifter.

[Bobcatkitten]

They are soooo close to a complete, solid episode. 

Them hunting with Jack was excellent. And I don't really care whose idea it was or who is right and wrong. All this Dean vs. Sam stuff is making my head spin. Sometimes Dean is right. Sometimes Sam is right. Why is it a contest? Sorry for that vent. New to the fandom and didn't realize it was so polarized.

Back to the episode - the therapy session was well done and I loved Jack having a talk with his mom. I liked the shifter storyline. Thought it was interesting they didn't even have a talk about whether she should live or die. The last scene was amazing. I love when the brothers interact. Jensen has been knocking it out of the park this season.

Now the bad - Castiel. I didn't like the whole empty thing. I was so bored. And was he trying to sound like Alistair? I like Cas and miss him a bit but I think the writing on him coming back is really lame. 

[Katy M]

49 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Thats what I meant. Wrong ep title. But my question was, is she meant to be the same character? I didn't think so, but someone up thread did

No. Her character died in The Mentalists.  Though I suppose that means nothing.

[Pondlass1]

The Cas scenes were boring and why would the empty have a floor and gravity if it's empty?  He'd float about surely?  Will Jack abandon Sam for Cas now?

Dean's instincts and fighting skills wax and wane according to plot and writer - (the guy that took out a whole vampire nest  got killed by a wraith last week).  Are there different varieties of shapeshifter? Some cast off yucky skin others just seem to change ( a la the episode with Magnus).  It was a weak storyline.  The B plot MOTW stories are getting pretty thin.  Isn't this supposed to be a horror show?  A guy pulling off his face doesn't cut it.  (Remember when Dean climbed up on that scarecrow? Oh The tension. I didn't breathe for 5 minutes.... those days are long gone).

The impatient Dean versus patient Sam scenes are getting irritating.  They're being wrongly written too ... surely Dean would be the brother so determined that mum was still alive.  Sam gives up on people usually if you check the history.  And there's so much left unsaid in their arguments it's driving me to drink.  

I'm not particularly bothered whether the spawn of Satan turns evil or not, but Dean's approach makes the most sense to me.  Sam's using him, let's face it.  The actor portraying Jack is doing a good job, tho.  But it's all a bit like Connor from Angel.  Daddy will get out of the AU and influence him to turn on everyone, Cas will be the voice for good .... yadda yadda yadda.  Bin there done that.

Anyway, at least the episode didn't drag and probably was entertaining to the casual viewer.  Fingers crossed for good ratings.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

  Sam's using him, let's face it.

They've been using Cas for years.  I see this as no different. Sam can want something from him and still care about him. 

[Aeryn13]

We lost the only Dean-writer on staff to the dark side? That`s mega-disappointing.

As was this episode. I figured it was gonna be the "turn around" ep but I thought it would be done with more nuance and balance than this. Instead we went to the Fallen Idols school of writing. Dean turns into an over-the-top carricature who the good monster of the week (gee, show, I`m not sure that anvil hit me hard enough) shames and calls out while the woobie-dom on Sam and Jack gets dialed up.   

So we get the requisite apology scene at the end. Whatthefuckever. This show does not understand the concept of two people being in different places emotionally and both can be right or rather not wrong. 

This revisionist history shit with Mary took the cake though. Now her being a disinterested ice-bitch to Dean is something Sam covets? Newsflash, Sam, she was a disinterested ice-bitch to you, too. So you had it all along. Heck, she talked more about Sam at least than Dean. And the entire speech sounded accusatory, as if somehow Dean had to so good, he needed to realize that. Again, Sam, he had what you had so you need to realize how good you had it as well. And you bitched at him for doing feelings wrong about her all freaking Season. 

Competency went out of the window again. Sigh.

Somehow I expected more from the Empty but eh.

Overall, it sucked. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Diane]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Another EXCELLENT episode IMO.  I think this season is on FIRE.  Quick thoughts:

- So very glad that we got an episode that specifically dealt with where each brother is and got them to a better place.

- Loved that Jack was watching Clone Wars!  And yes, good call on Anakin being sucky.   Super happy that Jack called out Sam on the 'can opener' issue.  Sam handled that well.  

- Jack IS afraid of Dean, I think that's warranted and I hope it ends.  Personally, I think Dean WAS channeling John a bit in terms of being tough on Jack.  Channeling John is NOT how Dean acts as a parent -- that's not what Dean was doing.  Dean was intentionally NOT being a parent.  He saw Jack as a liability and a danger. I think he was tough on Jack because this was Dean's version of 'testing Jack'.  And not necessarily consciously, but unconsciously. The comment about using Jack as an intern was spot on IMO.  Would Jack follow orders?  Partially is the answer.  Would Jack work hard? Yes. Would Jack's instincts 'kick in'?  Seems like "no".  Jack didn't automatically respond with a power surge when hit.  And although Jack couldn't use his power "on demand" easily, he clearly didn't activate his powers and 1) stopped the bad guy and 2) saved the good people.   I'm neither praising nor condemning Dean for him channeling John.  I see it as an instinctive 'show of authority'.  Dean is worried Jack will turn evil.  He's worried this is a situation he has no control over the situation (he doesn't).  And Dean's head, right now, is in a numb state.  

- I was particularly proud of Dean for not hiding his feelings - he knows he's transparent to Sam.  He's openly drinking from a flask. He's openly hostile when pushed.  Dean feels numb inside but he's also self-aware. Dean is just letting himself "be" how he feels.  And I like that.  Sam may think it's not healthy -- and it certainly was unkind to Jack (if Jack truly is an innocent) -- but Dean's PAST swallowing.   And I really loved that he told Sam to keep having faith.  That he NEEDS Sam to have faith.  So yes, Dean recognized he's been an ass. It's what he needed to be for a while.  And his relationship with Sam is strong enough to deal with that.  Dean's apology was not REMOTELY forced.  Dean isn't worried about Sam leaving.  Dean apologized because he felt that was the right thing.  I really like that.  

- Sam feeling like Dean was closer to Mary in S12 rang true to me.  Dean may have had a larger conflict with Mary but Dean still managed to not only try and forge even a little bit of a relationship -- to the point where Dean reached out and told Mary he needed to talk to her (before she got brainwashed).  Sam's relationship with Mary felt more distant.  And to me, Mary was much more comfortable with Dean than Sam.  I think she felt overwhelmed at what happened to Sam.  So much so that she didn't even consider the impact of her death on Dean's life.  But Dean got through to her, to really see HIM.  That was a great moment for the two of them.  Sam didn't have that moment.  Not yet.  And yes, we can talk about having a whole year to forge a relationship, but Mary wasn't open to that.  Her guilt was too strong.  It was selfish of Mary and she knew it.  And I don't blame Sam one bit for feeling like he was cheated out of his second chance.  Not by Dean but by circumstance.  And Sam is really afraid to potentially live with that.  We've been here before with Sam -- he could do something really drastically dangerous (like let Lucifer loose) to correct that injustice in his mind.  

- I'm also glad that Sam accepted Dean's apology with no fuss.   And that he opened up about his fears.  Sam and Dean may not be on the same page but at least now they seem to be able to share their grief.  It's SUCH PROGRESS from where they were for the first three episodes.  

-Loved seeing Camille (Mia) again.  Glad she lived.

- I thought the concept of the MOTW was good. I don't think the abusive boyfriend was well flushed out.  He was just a basic jerk.  I don't really get his motivation.  

- Loved LOVED that Jack asked Mia for help and got it.  Twice I shed a tear over Cinnamon Roll Jack (how I see him).  Yes, he could go evil.  I'm just going to enjoy his Cinnamon Roll phase.

Cas:  I think it's the real Cas back.  I'm not sure what damage the Empty did to him but that smile at the sunshine was pure Cas.  I liked that The Empty was Grumpy Cat.  He was Entropy times infinity.  He just wanted to stop and sleep.  I've been grumpy like that.  And Cas could easily annoy the hell out of him.  I thought it was Winchester 101 when Cas realized all he had to do was be annoying and stubborn.  And the Empty (which again, I think is Entropy to the extreme) simply could not tolerate Cas' energy.  He spit him out and went back to sleep.  Works for me. If he could have squashed him he would.  He didn't know how to deal with Cas.  In the history of "EVER", no one had ever woken up.  And apparently even God couldn't pull Cas out of the Empty. I think only the Empty could spit Cas out.  I like the construct.  I suspect we'll see it again.

Sue great recap.  I agree I am loving this season, I think it is just as good as season 11 was.  

[Boopsahoy]

52 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

surely Dean would be the brother so determined that mum was still alive.  Sam gives up on people usually if you check the history. 

Dean is so destroyed at the death of Cas and his Mom that he no longer has any hope. He doesn't WANT any hope for fear he will be crushed again.  I totally understood when he told Sam no you still have to believe shes alive. I think all his bluster about Mary being dead was done just to hear Sam have hope.

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

We lost the only Dean-writer on staff to the dark side? That`s mega-disappointing.

As was this episode. I figured it was gonna be the "turn around" ep but I thought it would be done with more nuance and balance than this. Instead we went to the Fallen Idols school of writing. Dean turns into an over-the-top carricature who the good monster of the week (gee, show, I`m not sure that anvil hit me hard enough) shames and calls out while the woobie-dom on Sam and Jack gets dialed up.   

So we get the requisite apology scene at the end. Whatthefuckever. This show does not understand the concept of two people being in different places emotionally and both can be right or rather not wrong. 

This revisionist history shit with Mary took the cake though. Now her being a disinterested ice-bitch to Dean is something Sam covets? Newsflash, Sam, she was a disinterested ice-bitch to you, too. So you had it all along. Heck, she talked more about Sam at least than Dean. And the entire speech sounded accusatory, as if somehow Dean had to so good, he needed to realize that. Again, Sam, he had what you had so you need to realize how good you had it as well. And you bitched at him for doing feelings wrong about her all freaking Season. 

Competency went out of the window again. Sigh.

Somehow I expected more from the Empty but eh.

Overall, it sucked. 

This, in a nutshell, is what I've read and heard about this one, too. And now I've heard enough to delete it unwatched. As always, thanks to you and others here who made the sacrifice of watching and reporting back to us.

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This, in a nutshell, is what I've read and heard about this one, too. And now I've heard enough to delete it unwatched. As always, thanks to you and others here who made the sacrifice of watching and reporting back to us.

That's a shame, you should watch it, it was a good episode.  Not even close to a sacrifice to watch. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I agree. There are some great parts to this episode. Well worth it. (just fast forward past the empty)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This, in a nutshell, is what I've read and heard about this one, too. And now I've heard enough to delete it unwatched. As always, thanks to you and others here who made the sacrifice of watching and reporting back to us.

It was just garbage and you can easily ignore it because nothing in it to see. Well, you could watch the Empty scenes if you want to get caught up on the set-up for Cas` story. That is unrelated to anything else in the ep. But I do believe future eps will catch viewers up as well.  

[Katy M]

Speaking of The Big Empty, I already said it was lame, and I stand by that, but I was kind of excited for a moment, when there was that shadowy, oil-like figure stalking Cas.  I figured that they were finally going to get something creepy going, but then, they just turned it into Cas. 

[strippedhalo]

I know this is a dumb thing to complain about, especially on Supernatural, but... so Jack heals instantly from stab wounds to the chest, but can be taken out for a significant period of time by a blow to the head?  Convenient!

Also... not!Castiel's excuse for looking like Cas was that its true form would cause him to go insane.  But Castiel's true form is not Jimmy.  Do all angels and demons go to the Empty in their vessels for all eternity?

Edited November 3, 2017 by strippedhalo
To complain about something else that bugged me.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

I know this is a dumb thing to complain about, especially on Supernatural, but... so Jack heals instantly from stab wounds to the chest, but can be taken out for a significant period of time by a blow to the head?  Convenient!

That drives me crazy in general.  Soulless Sam couldn't sleep.  Yet, he could be, and frequently was, knocked out.  I think they've knocked out a demon or two, also.  Yeah, when Meg was possessing Sam, Bobby punched him/her after giving him holy water beer.  Then, he/she was seen "coming to" when Dean got there.  Stupid.

6 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

Also... not!Castiel's excuse for looking like Cas was that its true form would cause him to go insane.  But Castiel's true form is not Jimmy.  Do all angels and demons go to the Empty in their vessels for all eternity?

Don't get me started on that either.  I've hated it every time we've seen an angel in Heaven in a vessel.  And, I just hate their Heaven anyway. 

[Whimsy]

I liked this episode and I am liking the season so far.  I pretty much always like the different points of views shows will take regarding nature vs nurture.  It's always interesting to see the different opinions on this subject, even in sci-fi/supernatural shows.

I'm liking Jack right now.  I am afraid of the fact that he'll have to go bad to cause a conflict for the storyline, but right now I'm enjoying him.  I wish Dean wasn't quite so harsh with him because some of the interactions are slightly funny, but mostly uncomfortable.  If they'd lighten Dean up a little into more apprehension, then it could be funny all the time.  But, he's grieving so I'll give him a pass.  Speaking of grieving...

I know what people are saying regarding the revisionist history of Mary's relationship with the boys and I'm not saying it's wrong, but I can sort of hand wave that a bit because this is how Sam is feeling.  You can't just say to someone who feels less loved or whatever that they're wrong.  Even if they logically know they may be overreacting, it's still the way they are feeling.  It's very hard to work through those kinds of feelings.  Both of the boys' emotions are raw and they're both reacting out of grief.  Right now, Sam is sad his mother is gone (again) and feels that Dean had a better relationship.  Even if it's not true, he is feeling the void and is upset that he may never get another chance.  Dean doesn't agree with Sam and he doesn't have to.  It's just the way family dynamics are. 

I liked Mia a lot.  I also knew as soon as she showed the picture of her boyfriend and it was Niall Matter (of Eureka, Primeval, When Calls the Heart, etc) that he would turn out to be the Big Bad.  I think he's a very attractive man, but that blood all over his face squicked me out.

[Lady Calypso]

15 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

I know this is a dumb thing to complain about, especially on Supernatural, but... so Jack heals instantly from stab wounds to the chest, but can be taken out for a significant period of time by a blow to the head?  Convenient!

Heh. Plot contrivance. Much like how they will weaken both Dean and Sam's fighting abilities when they need one or both incapacitated. 

That's the main issue I have with this show sometimes. I know it's been on the air for 13 seasons so not everything can work, but this show most often has to make Dean or Sam somewhat OOC to fit whatever plan they have for the season. Whether that's backtracking on progress that they've made or them being beaten in easy fights, it's just frustrating to watch. Them having Dean knocked out twice this episode was quite annoying, just like they knocked out Jack, and just like they had Sam put away his gun just by hearing his not!Brother's voice.

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, Boopsahoy said:

Dean is so destroyed at the death of Cas and his Mom that he no longer has any hope.

But don't you think this sounds more like Sam's MO? Sam left Dean to rot in purgatory and Kevin to face torture with Crowley.  He quickly assumed there was no hope and went about his life.  But this time he's the one that's got all this sudden hope?  Doesn't mesh with his character IMO.

But it doesn't matter really.  It's all a contrivance for the brother 'scenes', and both actors are knocking it out of the park... so I shouldn't complain, even tho Dean's constant apologising is getting a bit hard to bear.

31 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

so Jack heals instantly from stab wounds to the chest, but can be taken out for a significant period of time by a blow to the head? 

I was puzzled by this too? I think they forget.  (Another episode - when Jack healed from the tattoo- wouldn't the ink still  remain? When you have a tattoo it heals and scabs for a day or two, but once healed you're left with the ink markings).

[DittyDotDot]

I thought this was a pretty good episode--not great, just pretty good. I think they're still doing a good job of giving both Sam and Dean valid places they're coming from, but I don't know how Sam got from "Mom is not dead" to "Mom is dead" even though I think any reasonable person would've come to that conclusion a lot early. Whatever.

I rather enjoyed Jack in this episode. He seems to be becoming more his own person now and that's never a bad thing. 

But, Cass is back, baby!! ;) Wasn't trilled with Cass's side of things--thought the Empty was an interesting concept, but there should've been less talking and more quiet, if you ask me. But I am overjoyed Cass back. I'm thinking that's actual Cass and not the gatekeeper. Doesn't make sense to me the gatekeeper would leave the Empty when he was so fond of sleep. If he wanted to leave he probably could've done that eons ago and why would he stay in Cass's visage after he did leave? And, doesn't sound like he would be so enamored with being back in regular existence as Cass appeared to be at the end. They did miss a perfect opportunity to get Cass out of that trench he's been wearing for years, though, and I doubt the Mishamigos would've minded Cass coming back unclothed. ;)

Other than that, pretty standard fare. The counselor shifter was interesting, but when dead psychics show up as grief counselors, it should tip the boys off to there being a shifter in da house. I do love this game--while I'm at it, where have I seen bad shifter before? 

13 hours ago, Katy M said:

And, I don't care if Mary is dead or alive you guys.  You do NOT reopen that portal with Lucifer there, too.  Have we learned nothing?  NOthing?  

Amen to that, sister!! Except, both Sam and Dean have a whole helluva lot of brain damage now, so I'm betting even if they learned something, they'll forget. ;)

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think he means to be good, and he's honest about trying, but we will see him slip to the evil side at some point because TV shows never deviate from the typical tropes. 

I keep wavering on this, but I'm sticking by my initial assessment that both Sam and Dean will be wrong and Jack will be neither good nor bad. That doesn't mean he can't do something bad unintentionally or that he can't still be used for bad, though.

13 hours ago, Jeddah said:

What was going on with the doppelgänger? What was that voice?! What was Misha going for there?

I think he was going for smug, upper class, elite?

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And, Not!Cas's voice was just odd. What was the point? If it's a different entity, make it different actor. If it's part of Cas' psyche, then the voice wasn't necessary - we could've told the difference, like the two Deans in Dream A Little Dream. Weird.

I thought it was a smart approach, just thought there was too much talking. In fact, I was thinking that Cass should've wandered around the Empty alone for a lot longer. I think what this needed was more quiet reflection before the gatekeeper showed up and took that away. Either way, the doppleganger idea worked for me.

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My problem was with the whole thing. They had Dean be so OTT that he was being a dick, instead of just justifiably grieving and short tempered. I just hate that so much - the grief had such potential but instead they just used it to enhance the Dean is a neanderthal/Sam is reasonable and mature/Jack's a fluffy muffin trope they have going. No matter what they do with it now, it's endless fodder for the Dean-is-a-dick crowd.

I didn't think Dean's behavior was over-the-top. Grief isn't always reasonable or pretty and I appreciate they are letting Dean feel that right now. 

12 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Frankly, I couldn't care less about the "Dean is a dick" crowd, since their opinion is never going to change anyway.  If that's all they're getting out of this show, then it's their loss.

Amen!!

11 hours ago, devlin123 said:

Can someone please explain to me why Sam thinks Dean had a better relationship with Mary and why he is blaming Dean for reaching out to her only to be ignored and betrayed by her. If I remember correctly Sam was the one who teamed up with her and the BMOL and who shared more intimate moments with her. So instead of putting the blame with Mary, the person who was actually the reason why Sam felt their relationship was lacking, he lashes out at Dean. On another note I love the fact that Dean is self aware enough that he can recognize when is behavior is being hurtful and is big enough to acknowledge the fact

I think most people with siblings hold the belief that they are not the favored sibling, that doesn't mean it is actually true, though. For instance, I would say my middle sister is probably the favored sister by my mother, but I'm betting my middle sister would say it was me. Sam and Dean just look at things differently.

So, yeah, Mary called Dean more than Sam, but that doesn't mean Mary and Dean had a closer relationship. It was more likely Mary called Dean more than Sam simply because Dean would be alphabetically first on her contact list. However, from Sam's point of view, it would seem that Mary always called Dean and not himself. I also think there are a couple other things at play here too. One, I think Sam was also projecting how, through no fault of Dean's, Dean was born first and had four years with her while Sam didn't--Sam wasn't wrong that Dean and Mary had something Sam didn't even though it wasn't anything better. And two, I think Sam is somewhat angry at himself that he didn't push for more with Mary like Dean did--probably thinking it best not to push too hard and they had the time to work it out--and now he'll never have the chance again.

I think it's standard grieving, which again, isn't always reasonable or pretty.

41 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

I liked Mia a lot.  I also knew as soon as she showed the picture of her boyfriend and it was Niall Matter (of Eureka, Primeval, When Calls the Heart, etc) that he would turn out to be the Big Bad.  

Thank you!! It's funny to me how I never recognize Niall Matter outside of Eureka for some reason; I kept thinking he must have been in a previous Supernatural episode because he looked so familiar... .

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Amen to that, sister!! Except, both Sam and Dean have a whole helluva lot of brain damage now, so I'm betting even if they learned something, they'll forget. ;)

You're right.  What was I thinking?  Anybody that gets knocked out 20 times a year isn't going to keep any sense knocked inside their head.

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

Also... not!Castiel's excuse for looking like Cas was that its true form would cause him to go insane.  But Castiel's true form is not Jimmy.  Do all angels and demons go to the Empty in their vessels for all eternity?

Castiel's true form is an angel so I wonder if that creature is something that is more powerful than angels.

I've decided that Misha was going for a Jackie Kennedy/Katherine Hepburn mid atlantic kind of accent. Misha can do accents quite adeptly as seen in cons etc, so if he was going to do an English or Welsh or Norhern English accents then that's what we would have heard. Misha is a great actor and I think his entire body was different.

I saw on Tumblr or Twitter they were calling him "Qstiel" as a reference to "Q" from Star Trek and that kind of fits as well.

I'm fine with what he did there upon a re-watch. To me he was nothing like Castiel, Emmanuel, Jimmy, God or Leviathan Cas.

And I'd just like to once more be annoying and  toot my own horn that I called it back in the summer that Cas would be seeing himself solely based on Misha's sense of humor and saying it was a very handsome, talented actor LOL.  I love Misha.

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, forget NFL players. The Winchester brothers are sure to have brain damage with all the hits they take without a helmet. 

[Mulva]

Well that would explain why they never seem to learn from experience.

[gonzosgirrl]

DeanGirl rage aside, I'm just disappointed with so many things - and at the top of the list is the ever-growing disregard for canon and lore.

We've all come to except that nothing/nobody is ever really dead on the show, but goddamnit, burnt up wings are burned out wings. Even when Cas was exploded or turned into black goo and presumed dead and gone, there were no burnt up wings. God himself said it would take an untold amount of time to resurrect Gabriel or Raphael - but Not!Cas just pushes him on back to life? Bullshit.

We should be able to count on some things - and now we can trust nothing at all. Not good storytelling.

Don't get me started on Dean just giving up on Mary so easily and assuming Lucifer killed her immediately. Or, at all. 7+ years of this character have shown us (and them) that he likes to play with his food. The fact that Dean and Sam are alive is prima facie evidence of that. But yes, let's just forget all that. Let's forget that this is Dean Winchester we're talking about.

And Sam's impassioned speech about not getting quality time with Mary that Dean was so blessed with. Did they watch any of last season? Any of it at all? FFS.

Edited November 3, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We've all come to except that nothing/nobody is ever really dead on the show, but goddamnit, burnt up wings are burned out wings. Even when Cas was exploded or turned into black goo and presumed dead and gone, there were no burnt up wings. God himself said it would take an untold amount of time to resurrect Gabriel or Raphael - but Not!Cas just pushes him on back to life? Bullshit.

When The Big Empty was first mentioned by Billie in Form and Void, I wondered if that's where dead dead dead things went.  Angels, demons, vampires and whatever else killed by the Colt, and possibly Purgatory kills went.  So, I'm not that bothered by angels and demons going there after death.  I am annoyed by how easily Cas got out when Billie said "Nothing comes back from there."

[Aeryn13]

It was basically "Dramamu, I`ve come to bargain". Only Dr.Strange had to do it a gazillion times before the God-like entity gave in out of sheer annoyance. 

Speaking of, so they did introduce an Entity older and bigger and more powerful than God here? I mean, what else is the Empty-keeper? At least he just seems to want to sleep. And going by him/it/she/whatever, the Empty spanned everything and then God and Amara came and took a lot of territory as their own? On which at least God carved out his little ant farm project.

[catrox14]

I don't understand that therapy session at all.

Sam should have been tossed out the moment he started asking about patients.  Dean believed he was in a safe space to say what he wanted to say to the therapist and to say it how he said it. It was shit writing for Dean to use the word delusional because denial is the correct word  but whatever, crap writing with that.

I do not understand Jensen's line delivery there either. What was Jensen going for there? Pissed off, snarky Dean? Or did he amp it up to just straight up mean Dean so that Sam could stomp off? Or was that a ploy for Sam to get out of the office and go scrounging? It was a really weird scene.

That therapist shamed Dean. This isn't Dr Phil. I've been to therapy, that's not how it works, like at all. The therapist would have encouraged Sam to stay and talk. The therapist would not have told Dean "You MADE your brother so upset he left".  Nope, she would have said something like 'That was pretty harsh. Why did you say that to him?" She would have tried to understand WHY Dean was doing what he did. She wouldn't have cared that he doesn't think therapy has value. She would have  asked him questions. Not scolded him. That's not what they do.

His shitty line of "Yeah I've had a journal since I was a little girl" was utterly disgusting. Why would Dean even say those words? That's not him at all. Not even a grieving Dean would say that. I think they had to make Dean borderline hateful to make Sam and Jack as sympathetic as possible.

Remember last season when he apparently came round on the Mary thing after likely talking with the CPS woman? It doesn't match. That's why I really thought he was the shapeshifter.

 

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We've all come to except that nothing/nobody is ever really dead on the show, but goddamnit, burnt up wings are burned out wings. Even when Cas was exploded or turned into black goo and presumed dead and gone, there were no burnt up wings. God himself said it would take an untold amount of time to resurrect Gabriel or Raphael - but Not!Cas just pushes him on back to life? Bullshit.

As to why Cas is alive, it's Jack's powers. He has the power to resurrect based on emotion and need. IMO, that is why Cas was awakened from his permanent sleep. I think Cas will remain "awake" as long as Jack needs him and that even if Cas wanted to go back to sleep, he can't, just like Kelly couldn't die.

I think it also might be speaking to the idea that death isn't the end for an Multidimensional Wave of Celestial Intent. That the energy never really dies but goes elsewhere. So the Empty keeps "somethingness" and holds it as nothingness so it "sleeps". 

I posted this in the spoilers but it's fine for here because it's just spec not based on any pending spoilers.

Assuming that it is OUR!Cas at the end why is he in his season 4 throwback outfit? I'm thinking maybe Cas made a deal and he gets his fully powered Original Recipe!Cas but it's only temporary. Long enough for Cas to find the boys and Jack and then possibly kill Lucifer. Then he has to return to the Empty once he knows Jack is safe and not going dark side and if Jack does go darkside then Cas takes him back to the Empty with him. If Cas breaks the deal or someone else tries to break the deal, and he doesn't go back then that means it's curtains for the entire universe so Cas would have to return to the Empty for his "permanent slumber". And is a much better reason that he annoyed the Empty Creature into spitting him out.  Again, just a speculation.

I just don't really see the point in them creating a doppelganger if they don't put him into the current SL for Dean, Sam and Jack to deal with.

Edited November 3, 2017 by catrox14
for clarity

[Wayward Son]

Anyone who has read my posts in bitch vs jerk knows I'm not a Dean fan, so based on posts here, I honestly went into this episode expecting to be infuriated by his behaviour. However, I feel pretty much the same way as I felt throughout episodes 1-3 namely that Jack thus far hasn't deserved the harsh treatment he's been receiving from Dean. Thus far, he has been an innocent who did not ask to be conceived and brought into this world. On the other hand, lashing out when one is grieving is a pretty normal and human thing to do and I can understand why Dean is behaving the way he is. He's angry at the loss of his mother and blames Jack for behaviour he rightly or wrongly* perceives as manipulating Cas to his death. So in a way yes it could be argued he was acting like a "dick" for taking his grief out on Jack, but on the other hand he's human and while I'll be the first to call Dean out when I think he's gone over the line I don't think he's done so here. I honestly wish the apology had been a more balanced one. I think they could have kept in Dean apologising for lashing out at Jack and Sam, but I also think Sam should have offered apologies of his own. He should have apologized to Dean for not respecting his feelings and constantly forcing Jack's presence on him. I think it's too early yet for Sam to realise he's wrong about Dean/Mary, but I do hope he comes to realise he's wrong about that in future episodes. 

 

In regards to Sam's words in the therapy meeting I agree with those who said Dean has not been portrayed as having a deep relationship with Mary. However, I'm going to put that down to Sam having an incorrect perception of things rather than its a message the writers are trying to tell us through Sam. 

 

I wasn't a fan of the Misha in the empty scenes, sorry Misha! The actual writing was meh at best, Misha's acting was passable but far from his best and the accent was just atrocious. As a poster said above, I can't remember who sorry, was he going for some sort of cheap Alastair rip off? 

 

Speculation with no spoilers but spoiler tagging to be safe

Spoiler

*I still suspect that we may find out that Lucifer was the one who planted the paradise vision. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Speculation with no spoilers but spoiler tagging to be safe

  Hide contents

*I still suspect that we may find out that Lucifer was the one who planted the paradise vision. 

I have thought this from the moment it happened, however I'd go a step further and say *all* the manipulation stemmed from that source.

[Katy M]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam should have been tossed out the moment he started asking about patients. 

He didn't technically ask about patients. He asked about her program and said they had been referred by one of her patients. If I were a real patient and the doctor told me that the patients were not supposed to speak of her ever, that would have been a huge red flag to me.  Doctor-patient confidentiality only runs one way.

 

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or was that a ploy for Sam to get out of the office and go scrounging? It was a really weird scene.

I was wondering that momentarily, but I think he stormed off for reals and then just took advantage of the situation when he saw the stay out sign.  He seemed genuinely upset at the water cooler.

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I have thought this from the moment it happened, however I'd go a step further and say *all* the manipulation stemmed from that source.

If Lucifer is worth his salt as a villain it should be this way.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He didn't technically ask about patients. He asked about her program and said they had been referred by one of her patients. If I were a real patient and the doctor told me that the patients were not supposed to speak of her ever, that would have been a huge red flag to me.  Doctor-patient confidentiality only runs one way.

Fair point. I think I misunderstood that scene then. Thanks

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, upon second viewing, I have a few questions about the Shifter storyline.  I thought Shifters needed to actually touch some part of the person whose shape they were going to take?  Am I wrong about that?  If not, then how did the doctor take on the shapes of the deceased family members?  Also, just a nitpick, but this woman does this as a career, so I don't see her leaving this messy blood trail all throughout her house.  I get that we needed a hint as to what she was, but that was way too obvious.  Lastly, I'm really surprised there wasn't even a short conversation at the end about leaving the Shifter alive.  I know that she was supposed to be good, and I didn't want them to kill her, but it did seem strange to me that they didn't even have a discussion about what to do with her.

With all of their allies dead, and with Jack still a big unknown, I would think that both brothers would be erring more on the side of caution now when it comes to monsters.  I would say that maybe they're just feeling done with the whole thing, but that doesn't really make sense when they still seem very much into hunting.  I guess I'll chalk it up to the monster storyline being secondary to the forward movement of the Jack storyline, so it wasn't very well thought out.  I'm really ready for a well-written monster episode.