S13.E03: Patience

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I said I didn't doubt that Dean said it as an insult.  My point is that Jack should be confused by the term, even (or especially) if he picked up the "sneer" you say Jensen put in it (not questioning you, literally didn't see that part of the scene, though we often don't agree on interpretations :) )  

If Jack looks up the definition of "freak" it wouldn't seem to be an insult.  If he questioned Sam about it, I wonder what he would say?  

They are very selective (as needs want) in what Jack does and doesn't understand about the world/language/biology etc. He understands when they need him to, and doesn't when they don't, for.. reasons. Crap writing.

And by pretty much any definition, Jack is a freak. A freak of nature if nothing else. But they are intent on throwing Dean under the bus this arc, so I'm sure it's not the last 'nasty' thing he says or does to Jack, until they have him apologizing to the spawn.

Edited October 27, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They are very selective (as needs want) in what Jack does and doesn't understand about the world/language/biology etc. He understands when they need him to, and doesn't when they don't, for.. reasons. Crap writing.

And by pretty much any definition, Jack is a freak. A freak of nature if nothing else. But they are intent on throwing Dean under the bus this arc, so I'm sure it's not the last 'nasty' thing he says or does to Jack, until they have him apologizing to the spawn.

As I said in my post I get why Dean feels the way he does and won’t condemn him for it, but Dean definitely meant the word freak in the nasiest sense possible. Jensen portrayed it as Dean sneering the word out as though even mentioning Jack disgusts him. 

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

(which is unfair as Sam is mainly trying to help him for genuine reasons which Dean knows full well)

Actually, Dean doesn't know this.     Because Sam has told him that his primary purpose for wanting Jack around was that they needed him and that Sam sees him as useful.  Dean can't be faulted for thinking this if that is the only argument that Sam is presenting.

It's also the reason Sam was pressuring Jack so hard to learn to control his powers so they could put them to work,

Plus, Sam's approach is also harmful.  Because Jack doesn't know Sam and Sam isn't being honest with him.  Regardless if Sam's motivations are changing because Jack has no idea what they initially were if Sam doesn't come clean. .  If Sam suddenly says, "hey Jack, now that you got control of your powers, how about helping us out."  it should cause Jack to question again why Sam is so nice to him. .  Tell Jack he cares about him but he also hopes at some point they can help them.  Sam conveniently leaves this out.

IMO, Sam's approach is more harmful because at least Jack knows exactly where he stands with Dean.  If Dean says or does something good for Jack he'll know its genuine.  But because Sam is not being honest about a big part of his reason for wanting Jack on their side, Jack will always question Sam's motivations.

Edited October 27, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

As I said in my post I get why Dean feels the way he does and won’t condemn him for it, but Dean definitely meant the word freak in the nasiest sense possible. Jensen portrayed it as Dean sneering the word out as though even mentioning Jack disgusts him. 

I agree - and I also agree with Dean, in the sense that Jack *is* a freak, and one whose existence cost him his mother and bff *days* ago.

[nightwing877]

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

I thought it was nice to see Missouri again. She seemed to be a lot sharper back in the original episode. I was disappointed that they brought her back just to kill her off. 

However, being the nature of this show and not everyone goes away - permanently - The Wayward show could pull a "Grams" from Charmed and have her appear as a spirit once in a while. Patience was already getting visions of her. 

Yeah I can see her appearing again like that or a flashback. Heck with how they made it that she was a hunter after all, they could pull a Bobby/Rufus and have Missouri and Ellen teaming up on a hunt when they were younger lol

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Jensen portrayed it as Dean sneering the word out as though even mentioning Jack disgusts him. 

While I agree with you, I think the full truth came out in what he said last. It isn`t just because he is wary of Jack and they have been burned so many times in the past. It is the "I can barely look at him" part. Right now, he is too angry because Jack is there and Cas and Mary are not. That is not really Jack`s fault but Dean can`t help the feeling right now. He is seething mad that the people he loves are gone and Jack is there in their place. 

Sam isn`t angry at Jack for the reason Dean is so he can look at him fine. But he also can`t make Dean not be angry. Time is the only thing that can do that realistically.      

Btw, I didn`t mind that Jack has a supernatural line on Cas that noone else has. He also has powers noone else has. And in a roundabout way Dean DID facilitate that. Up until now Jack didn`t suddenly come up with the idea to turn on a Cas-dar. He only did so because he got emotional in response to Dean being emotional.  

Oh, and I also saw a gif on tumblr about Dean saying Jack doesn`t deserve to be saved with Cas, in his first scene, asking Dean "you don`t think you deserve to be saved?" So while it might seem very harsh on Dean`s part, other than Sam, he doesn`t make many exceptions. Certainly not for himself. I think if someone told him that he doesn`t deserve to be saved, he`d kinda agree, too.  

Sam doesn`t operate on that wavelength. And that`s why they will never agree on such a matter emotionally. Jack just can`t be their argument, either way. He is a person (kinda), not a point anyone can make. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

While I agree with you, I think the full truth came out in what he said last. It isn`t just because he is wary of Jack and they have been burned so many times in the past. It is the "I can barely look at him" part. Right now, he is too angry because Jack is there and Cas and Mary are not. That is not really Jack`s fault but Dean can`t help the feeling right now. He is seething mad that the people he loves are gone and Jack is there in their place. 

Sam isn`t angry at Jack for the reason Dean is so he can look at him fine. But he also can`t make Dean not be angry. Time is the only thing that can do that realistically.      

Oh, I agree with you! As I mentioned in my initial post in this thread I get where Dean is coming from. I was just pointing out that while yes the word “freak” can be used in different manners, as a term of endearment between friends for instance, Dean definitely meant it with the nastiest underbite possible. An understandable nastiness considering his resentment towards Jack, but nasty nonetheless. 

 

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree - and I also agree with Dean, in the sense that Jack *is* a freak, and one whose existence cost him his mother and bff *days* ago.

Id say it’s arguable how much of this is all Jack’s fault. He didn’t ask to be conceived and realistically, Jack or no Jack, they would have always had a confrontation with Lucifer at some point. He was an enemy of Castiel and the brothers long before Jack entered the picture. 

[ILoveReading]

Part of me still wonders if Jack is playing a con.  Because when Dean said he wanted to kill Jack he said he would be the one to do it if it went bad.  Jack just told Sam that he said he wanted to kill him.  It makes me question if he's trying to turn them against each other.

I doubt it but it would be interesting if it was the direction the writers were headed.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Part of me still wonders if Jack is playing a con.  Because when Dean said he wanted to kill Jack he said he would be the one to do it if it went bad.  Jack just told Sam that he said he wanted to kill him.  It makes me question if he's trying to turn them against each other.

I doubt it but it would be interesting if it was the direction the writers were headed.

I think it could go either way. There’s the theory you’ve shown, or it’s simply the writers trying to highlight his childlike mindset i.e. he’s still too emotionally immature to make a distinction between Dean saying he’d only kill him if he went bad and Dean saying he’d kill him. 

Im hoping he’s being genuine because I like Jack and consider Alexander a great additions to the cast, but sadly I fully expect him to go dark side at some point -sigh-

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think it could go either way. There’s the theory you’ve shown, or it’s simply the writers trying to highlight his childlike mindset i.e. he’s still too emotionally immature to make a distinction between Dean saying he’d only kill him if he went bad and Dean saying he’d kill him. 

Im hoping he’s being genuine because I like Jack and consider Alexander a great additions to the cast, but sadly I fully expect him to go dark side at some point -sigh-

I'm guessing he'll go dark for a few episodes in the middle of the season but toward the end he'll have to make a choice and he'll go back to the Winchesters. 

[Aeryn13]

I think he might be their overpowered "good side" weapon against AU!Michael should they ever clash. It`s been three episodes now and Jack is still an angsty Baby!Groot. Even in this episode when he showed some frustration, it was still only angsty. Nothing about it was dark. 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm guessing he'll go dark for a few episodes in the middle of the season but toward the end he'll have to make a choice and he'll go back to the Winchesters. 

Unless they've killed off all the other Big Bads by the end of the season and he's continuing on into the next, at which point he'll be "bwahaaa....I'm bigger than God now!"  :)  and :(  

I'm guessing the creepy crawlies Asmodeus wants brought to the surface will show up at some point as yet another big bad.  But maybe they were just a red herring?  (fingers crossed.)  

[MysteryGuest]

I've been trying to figure out why this episode seemed so lacking to me, and I realized it was because there were no real scenes between Dean and Jody.  Yes, they were onscreen together, but no real dialogue was exchanged between them.  I guess we're supposed to assume that Dean filled Jody in on Lucifer's child being born, his mother being swept into an alternate universe, Castiel dying...why do these writers insist on skipping over all of this needed dialogue?  They did it last season and it drove me crazy, and apparently that trend is going to continue. It makes for very hollow storytelling, IMO.  

When Dean gets back from his hunt, the first thing he says to Sam is "how's the kid...has he gone dark side yet?"  He doesn't say how's the freak, or the monster, or anything like that.  The scene to me was written to show that Sam had been sitting there stewing until Dean got back, just so he could accuse him of messing Jack up.  That's what rang false to me, and it's just more manufactured angst between them.  Sam told Jack that Dean and Cas saved him, so again, I'd rather have seen Sam start the conversation there instead of just blaming Dean for Jack's issues.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Id say it’s arguable how much of this is all Jack’s fault. He didn’t ask to be conceived and realistically, Jack or no Jack, they would have always had a confrontation with Lucifer at some point. He was an enemy of Castiel and the brothers long before Jack entered the picture. 

I don't blame Jack either. I also don't think Dean is blaming him for existing, he just can't stand that he does while Mary and Cas are dead. I think him stopping him from mindlessly stabbing himself in the last ep speaks to that. And we know 'how' Dean told Jack he would kill him if it comes down to it, but Sam doesn't. He also didn't bother to ask, just assumed Dean must have been a dick about it.  Supernatural entities aside, I liken Dean's reaction to 'hating' the driver of a car in an that killed your loved ones, even if they were not at fault because the roads were icy. You can't hate the icy road, but you have to hate something. Not fair, perhaps, but totally human.

[Bobcatkitten]

Off the top, the last scene was masterful on both Jensen and Jared's part.

I hadn't really considered that Sam might see himself in Jack back in his demon blood/psychic powers days so I thought that was a well done parallel and throwback. And I think Dean has a point about whether Jack could go evil. Also that Sam is hoping the kid can open the alternate universe. (After all, wasn't that one of the first things Sam asked him when they were in the cell together?)

But neither one is fully right or fully wrong. I think Dean's grief has pushed him a bit past rational on Jack and same with Sam being perhaps not cautious enough. And that's life, people. Lots of gray.

I felt bad for Jack overhearing the conversation as I see him more as a toddler and I felt immediately pissed at Dean, which is a reminder at how good of an actor Ackles is. 

 

I agree on the bad writing on the wraith storyline though. There was no need to suddenly make Missouri a hunter. And frankly I hated how there was no explanation for her willingly going to her death. It came out of left field. Wraiths aren't particularly hard to kill. Three on one they could have handled that before the wraith got anywhere near her family. Huge hole for me that took me out of the overall MOTW storyline.

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's the way he has been (except for Benny, and we're not going there today.) 

And Emma (I'll take further thoughts on that to the B v J thread). 

The whole debate of nature v nurture is interesting and meaningful when it comes to ordinary monsters, like Amy, Benny, Emma, Lenore, Garth etc. It's even interesting when it comes to Sam, a human. Unfortunately, IMO, it loses all meaning when they try to apply it to the nephil of Lucifer/Satan.

IMO, it's a false equivalency really because according to the lore per Sam himself in 13.2, nephilim are more powerful than its' parental units. So that makes Jack no ordinary monster. He's not even an ordinary nephil because he is the spawn of an archangel who is also Lucifer, who according to Chuck wasn't changed by the Mark but rather the Mark made him more of who he was already and that was jealous, envious, bitter and hateful towards humanity. Lucifer's characterization in s5 was that he despised humanity and that never changed, not even the Lucifer in s12. He still hated humanity but decided to break all of Daddy's toys (humans) and managed to work himself up to possessing a Catholic Cardinal and POTUS Jeff. He wanted the power of POTUS office but settled for raping both he and Kelly to create a nephil. He would have been evil!POTUS with a pending Spawn until the BMOL Magic Egg of Exorcism showed up, and Crowley redireced him to his lair. So clearly, Lucifer had a plan. I think Lucifer still has a plan. Lucifer wants to raise Jack to control the world. Jack has memories of everything that happened in utero. He said he WAS his mother. That implies then IMO that he WAS also Lucifer at some point. JMHO YMMV

Whether he controlled Cas and Kelly to force his own birth, OR it was just his innate survival tactics kicking in, he still had the power to control Kelly and Cas in utero. And somehow also had the power to convince her that he was going to be wonderful, and to convince Cas about Paradise and Peace. And that ALL could be precisely what Jack wants and he's just going about it in all the wrong ways.

It's also just as likely that it's Lucifer's DNA at work and that Jack is making those conscious choices to ensure his own birth. Lest we forget Lucifer's greatest power was getting people to do what he wanted and convincing them it was their idea essentially. That's how he convinced Nick to be his meatsuit, but Sam was strong enough to resist it even though there were cracks in Sam's armor. And ultimately Sam agreed to be possessed to defeat Lucifer. So I reckon that if Jack is twice as powerful as Lucifer, then he might already have that skill of manipulation. He set a bible on fire in LOTUS via Kelly but he could easy peasy read one in 13.2? I call shenanigans.

He's already got all the knowledge per Asmodeus. It's the inability to control his power that is the problem. Jack is also smart. Twice now he's appealed to Sam via 'Dean hates me' and then it became "Dean wants to kill me". No, that's not what Dean said. Dean said "IF it comes to that, I'll be the one that kills you".  Maybe Jack is manipulating Sam by presenting it that way. Maybe he doesn't get the difference.  It's funny that Jack seemed to take a pretty different tone with Sam when he told him 'This is pretty much the opposite". His voice was calm. There was no sense of childish naivete in that tete a tete with Sam. Wouldn't it help Jack's position if he drives a wedge between Sam and Dean? 

The whole premise is one big false equivalency. I see what you're doing show and well, it's failing for this viewer.

I also predict that Dean and Cas will have a major, possibly irreparable rift because Cas will be aghast that Dean said he would kill Jack if the time came. I'm not looking forward to that.

Edited October 27, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Death is dead and Chuck and Amara have gone off to parts unknown eliminating the possibility of divine aid.

This got me thinking.  Dean KILLED Death. Like it's 100% on HIM.  And he saved the universe by reconcilling Chuck and Amara but that reconcilliation is part of why they are also absent.  PLUS God literally put Dean .. 'and Sam' in charge by saying 'it's got you'.  I put 'and Sam' because the's precisely how it was played.  PLUS last year both Sam and Dean actually admitted that they 'save the world'.  Which was nice to see them acknowledge.  But THIS YEAR?  This year it's like a burden.  And now Dean is feeling it potentially more than Sam.  Because besides it being fundamentally in Dean's nature, Dean IS the one God spoke to and he IS the one who killed Death.

And Jack is not only the 'son of Satan', he's the grandson of Chuck.  

I think Dean not only 'thinks he needs to save the world'.  Dean actually believes it literally.  And he's pissed about it.  And partially pissed at himself for the choices he made that he think put him in this position and the price he's paid.

PLUS, there's a part of me that sees Dean as more honest with Jack.  As I've said before, Dean has zero f*cks to give about ANYTHING these days.  Except for this burden and his loss.  But he cut Sam short on talking about 'needing Jack'.  I thought it was because he didn't want to have false hope regarding Mary.  NOW, I think it MAY be because he saw the interdimensional can opener issue right from the get go.

And I think Dean both simultaneously loathes EVERYTHING to do with Jack and yet still 'sees' him.  Jack's existence is REALLY pushing Dean's morality envelope on what is the right thing to do.  I think he 100% believes Jack will turn evil and yet he is intolerant of Sam using him as a can opener and didn't let Jack continue to stab himself and questioned the beer.  So... Dean calling Jack a freak?  Intended to be downright nasty IMO.  Definitely lashing out at Sam with Sam's trigger word. But part of this is (IMO) Dean trying to compartmentalize his POV on Jack.  He NEEDS Jack to remain a freak so he can kill him.  

And again, that SUCKS.  And Dean is pissed that it's left up to him.  

[shang yiet]

Quote

But neither one is fully right or fully wrong

I agree.  They are both projecting their grief and loss on Jack. I would certainly like Sam to be more wary of Jack but Dean warning Jack he might kill him is pretty tactless and counter-productive. Just how was Dean going to do it? Jack could kill Dean in a blink of an eye. What good is that honesty when it unsettles Jack and makes him wary of both Dean and Sam?

And so what if Sam is using Jack to save Mary and Cas? What's wrong with that? He can still have a genuine bond with Jack too in the process.

So Dean can lay it on the line if he wants to but Sam has the right to do the same. I didn't like that only Dean is allowed to yell. 

 

Quote

And now Dean is feeling it potentially more than Sam.

Given Sam's history with the demon blood and special link to Lucifer, Sam has a big stake in the Jack situation as well and feels he has a lot to prove.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I agree.  They are both projecting their grief and loss on Jack. I would certainly like Sam to be more wary of Jack but Dean warning Jack he might kill him is pretty tactless and counter-productive. Just how was Dean going to do it? Jack could kill Dean in a blink of an eye. What good is that honesty when it unsettles Jack and makes him wary of both Dean and Sam?

And so what if Sam is using Jack to save Mary and Cas? What's wrong with that? He can still have a genuine bond with Jack too in the process.

So Dean can lay it on the line if he wants to but Sam has the right to do the same. I didn't like that only Dean is allowed to yell. 

 

Given Sam's history with the demon blood and special link to Lucifer, Sam has a big stake in the Jack situation as well and feels he has a lot to prove.

I actually enjoyed Sam yelling - showing some emotion rather that the robot/zen/dour Sam of late. He has as much right to his feelings as Dean does, but I think, like in real life, people are almost always going to choose a side.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I actually enjoyed Sam yelling - showing some emotion rather that the robot/zen/dour Sam of late. He has as much right to his feelings as Dean does, but I think, like in real life, people are almost always going to choose a side.

Or not. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, shang yiet said:

Given Sam's history with the demon blood and special link to Lucifer, Sam has a big stake in the Jack situation as well and feels he has a lot to prove.

Here is what I don't get. What is saving Jack going to prove for Sam? He freaking allowed Lucifer to possess him to make up for his mistakes with demon blood and letting Lucifer out and saved the world in the process. He said in s7 that he doesn't have anymore guilt for what he did because he felt like he had made up for it. In s8, he said the trials were purifying him which implies that he no longer felt tainted. As recently as s11, when he faced Lucifer again, he said "No".

Yes, I get what the narrative is trying to push WRT to Sam but I just can't fathom what believing in Jack's "goodness" is going to prove to Sam about himself. 

I would have more respect for Sam's position if he kept his argument to 1) Inter-dimensional can opener usage  2) That Jack as a partial human being deserves a chance just for that alone. He loses me every time he makes the arguments about himself. That he knows how it feels. I just want to yell at him and say "Sam, you clearly have issues with yourself here still. See a psychic counselor or something".

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here is what I don't get. What is saving Jack going to prove for Sam? He freaking allowed Lucifer to possess him to make up for his mistakes with demon blood and letting Lucifer out and saved the world in the process. He said in s7 that he doesn't have anymore guilt for what he did because he felt like he had made up for it. In s8, he said the trials were purifying him which implies that he no longer felt tainted. As recently as s11, when he faced Lucifer again, he said "No".

Yes, I get what the narrative is trying to push WRT to Sam but I just can't fathom what believing in Jack's "goodness" is going to prove to Sam about himself. 

I would have more respect for Sam's position if he kept his argument to 1) Inter-dimensional can opener usage  2) That Jack as a partial human being deserves a chance just for that alone. He loses me every time he makes the arguments about himself. That he knows how it feels. I just want to yell at him and say "Sam, you clearly have issues with yourself here still. See a psychic counselor or something".

I think it can depend on how you look at the situation. It might not be that Sam has self-issues per say. It might be more that Sam is thinking along the lines of “When I was in trouble Dean worked to save me. Jack is innocent and hasn’t done anything wrong so far? Shouldn’t we be trying to save him too? Why did I deserve to be saved, but jack doesn’t?. IMO that interpretation still fits in with Sam feeling purified and relieved of his own guilt. Just because Sam has moved on doesn’t mean he can’t still acknowledge the parallels there. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or not. 

That's why I wrote almost ;)

[Bessie]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I actually enjoyed Sam yelling - showing some emotion rather that the robot/zen/dour Sam of late. He has as much right to his feelings as Dean does, but I think, like in real life, people are almost always going to choose a side.

I'm on both their sides because I think the writers, for once, have introduced a truly gray situation. They're both right and each has a legitimate position. People may not like how one or the other is expressing that position, but to my mind, they both have a reasonable point. 

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

And so what if Sam is using Jack to save Mary and Cas? What's wrong with that? He can still have a genuine bond with Jack too in the process.

This is true but if Sam isn't honest with Jack from the start, he's always going to question Sam's motives.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'm on both their sides because I think the writers, for once, have introduced a truly gray situation. They're both right and each has a legitimate position. People may not like how one or the other is expressing that position, but to my mind, they both have a reasonable point. 

I’m the same! I’m actually enjoying the Jack storyline so far. I reserve the right to change my mind later, but at this point I’m enjoying it because everyone including Jack is well represented. 

[bethy]

I wish there didn't have to be sides. I wish that Dean and Sam would acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view and proceed together with both perspectives in mind. I wish that after all they've been through and how many times they've dealt with this exact same situation that the brothers would give each other the benefit of the doubt and not have to have the same old fight over and over again. 

I wish these writers could come up with a way to plot conflict for the characters without going back to the same well one more time. 

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here is what I don't get. What is saving Jack going to prove for Sam? He freaking allowed Lucifer to possess him to make up for his mistakes with demon blood and letting Lucifer out and saved the world in the process. He said in s7 that he doesn't have anymore guilt for what he did because he felt like he had made up for it. In s8, he said the trials were purifying him which implies that he no longer felt tainted. As recently as s11, when he faced Lucifer again, he said "No".

Yes, I get what the narrative is trying to push WRT to Sam but I just can't fathom what believing in Jack's "goodness" is going to prove to Sam about himself. 

I would have more respect for Sam's position if he kept his argument to 1) Inter-dimensional can opener usage  2) That Jack as a partial human being deserves a chance just for that alone. He loses me every time he makes the arguments about himself. That he knows how it feels. I just want to yell at him and say "Sam, you clearly have issues with yourself here still. See a psychic counselor or something".

I don't think this is Sam trying to prove anything about himself. He's just using himself as an example. It's not about guilt or remorse, IMO, or Sam trying to right his own wrongs through Jack, but Sam trying to find something good to come out of all the losses they just experienced. If Jack can just be a force for good, then losing their mom allover again might not feel so empty and pointless. Except, it will either way...but, that's a whole different discussion. 

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, bethy said:

I wish there didn't have to be sides. I wish that Dean and Sam would acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view and proceed together with both perspectives in mind. I wish that after all they've been through and how many times they've dealt with this exact same situation that the brothers would give each other the benefit of the doubt and not have to have the same old fight over and over again. 

I wish these writers could come up with a way to plot conflict for the characters without going back to the same well one more time. 

This is what I've been trying to say, but you said it much more concisely.  I think it's perfectly legitimate for them each to have a different perspective on Jack, but I want them to handle it better than they are.  They know how this works.  Jack is an unknown entity, one that could have world-ending repercussions.  While it's ok to hope he can be good and to work toward that end, they should absolutely be working night and day to find a way to destroy him, in case they need to.  It shouldn't be an either or situation.  Rightly or wrongly, the universe is depending on them not screwing this up.

[Bessie]

17 minutes ago, bethy said:

I wish there didn't have to be sides. I wish that Dean and Sam would acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view and proceed together with both perspectives in mind. I wish that after all they've been through and how many times they've dealt with this exact same situation that the brothers would give each other the benefit of the doubt and not have to have the same old fight over and over again. 

Agreed. Right now, I’m okay with chalking it up to grief. But at some point soon, I’d like there to be a meeting of the minds. 

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think it can depend on how you look at the situation. It might not be that Sam has self-issues per say. It might be more that Sam is thinking along the lines of “When I was in trouble Dean worked to save me. Jack is innocent and hasn’t done anything wrong so far? Shouldn’t we be trying to save him too? Why did I deserve to be saved, but jack doesn’t?. IMO that interpretation still fits in with Sam feeling purified and relieved of his own guilt. Just because Sam has moved on doesn’t mean he can’t still acknowledge the parallels there. 

I get that parallel. I really do. Sam can still be empathetic with Jack without making it about himself with Dean. He could just keep telling Jack he's worth it just for his own sake. He could tell Dean that Jack is worth it for his own sake. He doesn't have to say what he said to Dean about how he didn't kill him when John told him too. Sorry, Berens that's not actually how that happened. It was if Dean couldn't save Sam he'd have to kill him. John never told Dean to kill Sam as if there was no other option.. Berens left out that Dean didn't JUST say he would kill Jack. He told Jack IF which is the big qualifier here, that IF Jack went dark he would be the one to kill him. It's the same thing with Jack only the difference is that Jack is NOT Dean's family by choice or by birth. Dean doesn't owe it to Jack or Cas or Sam to not kill Lucifer's Spawn.

That's where I find a false equivalency and that Sam's position by relating it to his own existence bothers me.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

I wish there didn't have to be sides. I wish that Dean and Sam would acknowledge that the other has a valid point of view and proceed together with both perspectives in mind. I wish that after all they've been through and how many times they've dealt with this exact same situation that the brothers would give each other the benefit of the doubt and not have to have the same old fight over and over again. 

I wish these writers could come up with a way to plot conflict for the characters without going back to the same well one more time. 

The thing is, I think that's what Dean is trying to do, not acquiesce, but just go on until something happens. He said as much to Jack. To me, it's Sam who is trying to force Dean onto his side. I'd say I don't know why they are writing it this way, but sadly, I think I do. That's a post for a different thread though. It's too bad that this is the only drama these writers are capable of. 

[devlin123]

I am loving the portrayal of dean, I love the fact that Jensen is going for it. Grief is not pretty, it is not logical, it is raw, painful and can be hurtful. I love that he is not playing for sympathy by woobifying his behavior. People are going to hate him, plenty already are, but it is realistic and  riveting to watch. Yeah it sux to be jack and on the receiving end but that's life and I am sure Dean will make it up to him. And these are not real people so I don't have to worry about if a fictional characters feelings are hurt and  I can just sit here and appreciate the beauty and complexity of Jensens acting

[catrox14]

Another thing that bothers me is Sam saying that him drinking demon blood didn't end bad for Sam.

Honestly, how is that true? Is it because Dean didn't kill him? Like Sam did do some awful things because of the demon blood. Like why was that even something to include. I feel like I must be missing something.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Another thing that bothers me is Sam saying that him drinking demon blood didn't end bad for Sam.

Honestly, how is that true? Is it because Dean didn't kill him? Like Sam did do some awful things because of the demon blood. Like why was that even something to include. I feel like I must be missing something.

I was assuming he meant that it ended well because he wasn't still addicted to demon blood.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I was assuming he meant that it ended well because he wasn't still addicted to demon blood.

That didn't have anything to do with Dean though AFAIR. The detox was scuttled at Bobby's behest. I'm not being snarky nor B v J. I legitimately can't see why Berens wrote that. It ended up quite bad for Sam.  I'm still just mystified at the correlation.

[Katy M]

Just now, catrox14 said:

That didn't have anything to do with Dean though AFAIR. The detox was scuttled at Bobby's behest. I'm not being snarky nor B v J. I legitimately can't see why Berens wrote that. It ended up quite bad for Sam.  I'm still just mystified at the correlation.

Sam did bad stuff while on demon blood.  I'm not denying that.  But, with or without Dean's help, he is not currently on demon's blood, therefore it didn't end badly.  Assuming he doesn't get addicted to demon blood again, as his life isn't yet over.  

And, although God cleaned Sam up when they were on the plane or whatever, he clearly still got cravings, see Good God Y'All, and I'm sure Dean's presence (I know they split up for a couple of epis, but let's not analyze this to death), helped him keep clean.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam did bad stuff while on demon blood.  I'm not denying that.  But, with or without Dean's help, he is not currently on demon's blood, therefore it didn't end badly.  Assuming he doesn't get addicted to demon blood again, as his life isn't yet over.  

And, although God cleaned Sam up when they were on the plane or whatever, he clearly still got cravings, see Good God Y'All, and I'm sure Dean's presence (I know they split up for a couple of epis, but let's not analyze this to death), helped him keep clean.

I gotcha. I never thought that was the case but I guess that might be what they were going for. Still weird for me.

[mertensia]

I can't say this was one of the better episodes, mainly because I do not understand why Missouri didn't set a trap. That said, my guess is her hunting was confined to things like banishing poltergeists or making ghosts stop haunting places.

Was that an old tobacco shed with drying tobacco?

Ugh on wraiths being able to grow that spike back.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Ugh on wraiths being able to grow that spike back.

Actually, I don't have a problem with that.  That makes sense to me.  Otherwise, wraiths would be way too easy to defeat.  Just break their spike off, and while their still alive, they're not any more dangerous than people at that point.  It's like a starfish growing its limbs back.  And, it takes at least a few mintues, and since the only other wraith we've seen was killed immediately after Dean broke her spike, it's not a retcon.

[mertensia]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Actually, I don't have a problem with that.  That makes sense to me.  Otherwise, wraiths would be way too easy to defeat.  Just break their spike off, and while their still alive, they're not any more dangerous than people at that point.  It's like a starfish growing its limbs back.  And, it takes at least a few mintues, and since the only other wraith we've seen was killed immediately after Dean broke her spike, it's not a retcon.

No, I meant ugh in the sense of what the Hell, universe! Like that's fair! 

[SueB]

@catrox14 I meant to get back to you earlier.  You are right.  The "future" vision did not get announced until the last line of the episode titled "The Future".  Cas DID, however, say the boy needed to be born with all his powers and that he had faith in the child.

So, that means that canonically, some point after Crowley arrived, Cas told Dean about Paradise.  Because Dean clearly knows and it's a key plot point (why Dean thinks Jack manipulated Cas).  There IS a deleted scene that shows conversation w/ Sam, Dean & Mary before Luci shows up but it doesn't talk about this.  HOWEVER, if you look at the scene where Sam and Dean are in gear-up mode prior to Luci arriving, Dean again talks about Cas having faith in the kid.  So... I'd put it before the "gear up event".  

I know there are some people that say "if it happened off-screen it didn't happen".  But that's just not a viable approach IMO for THIS plot point.  Because it's a deliberate plot point.  No matter HOW he found out, Dean knows Cas was promised a paradise future with Jack. That's canon.  

[Myrelle]

21 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

While I agree with you, I think the full truth came out in what he said last. It isn`t just because he is wary of Jack and they have been burned so many times in the past. It is the "I can barely look at him" part. Right now, he is too angry because Jack is there and Cas and Mary are not. That is not really Jack`s fault but Dean can`t help the feeling right now. He is seething mad that the people he loves are gone and Jack is there in their place. 

Sam isn`t angry at Jack for the reason Dean is so he can look at him fine. But he also can`t make Dean not be angry. Time is the only thing that can do that realistically.      

Btw, I didn`t mind that Jack has a supernatural line on Cas that noone else has. He also has powers noone else has. And in a roundabout way Dean DID facilitate that. Up until now Jack didn`t suddenly come up with the idea to turn on a Cas-dar. He only did so because he got emotional in response to Dean being emotional.  

Oh, and I also saw a gif on tumblr about Dean saying Jack doesn`t deserve to be saved with Cas, in his first scene, asking Dean "you don`t think you deserve to be saved?" So while it might seem very harsh on Dean`s part, other than Sam, he doesn`t make many exceptions. Certainly not for himself. I think if someone told him that he doesn`t deserve to be saved, he`d kinda agree, too.  

Sam doesn`t operate on that wavelength. And that`s why they will never agree on such a matter emotionally. Jack just can`t be their argument, either way. He is a person (kinda), not a point anyone can make. 

+100 to this post.

 

15 hours ago, devlin123 said:

I am loving the portrayal of dean, I love the fact that Jensen is going for it. Grief is not pretty, it is not logical, it is raw, painful and can be hurtful. I love that he is not playing for sympathy by woobifying his behavior. People are going to hate him, plenty already are, but it is realistic and  riveting to watch. Yeah it sux to be jack and on the receiving end but that's life and I am sure Dean will make it up to him.

And to this one, too.

But wouldn't it be something, if Jack tried to make it up to Dean instead of the other way around, by showing Dean some empathy and compassion over their shared losses. THAT would be something that might stop Dean in his tracks and get him to rethink his feelings on a dime-especially coming from the spawn, himself.

[Aeryn13]

I think if Dean had a talk with Jack and, instead of his earlier "he can`t be saved", he modified it to "I`m not sure", that would already be meaningful to Jack. It signifies a different outlook and Jack could be certain it is no lie because Dean has not said things behind his back that he also didn`t say to his face. And, if you compare the last scene with Sam here to the last scene with Jack in episode 2, Dean spoke much calmer and with a less outright hostile tone to Jack himself. Which is IMO a response to the situations, Jack only inquired about Dean`s opinion of him whereas Sam had expectations on Dean parenting Jack. 

Now I do think the impetus to change should/will come from Dean. Jack is too much of a naive child still to be expected reaching out. He might do it because he wants acceptance but not because of emotional maturity. Which is fair, it would be a lot to expect of anyone.    

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He might do it because he wants acceptance but not because of emotional maturity

Which might work for Dean, too, especially if you consider how little of that he's ever gotten in his entire life.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Which might work for Dean, too, especially if you consider how little of that he's ever gotten in his entire life.

Agree so much with this!

[Airmid]

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

Sam did bad stuff while on demon blood.  I'm not denying that.  But, with or without Dean's help, he is not currently on demon's blood, therefore it didn't end badly.

Well maybe not for Sam but it would have if he hadn't had a brother that dragged him out of hell and an angel that wiped out his suffering.

And that's not including all the people who died with Lucifer and company running around free while the earth teetered on the edge of destruction. 

But I guess we don't include those.

It did end badly, it did end bloody. Just because Sam's still upright, doesn't mean it didn't for him or for a lot of innocent people caught in the cross fire. 

Now, if Sam applied what he learned from all of that and instead of projecting himself onto Jack, he tried to do things better, then that's fine. I wouldn't have a problem with that. If Sam used his own experiences and tried to not repeat the mistakes of both himself and his family - that would be excellent. 

But I doubt that's the direction they're even attempting to go. And I should probably stop while I'm ahead since I already think this is teetering on belonging in another thread, even if it is about an issue in this episode.

[Icarus]

There were several plus points for me in this episode, i.e. no Mary and Lucifer and no Asmodeus so that was a good start IMO. I also liked Patricia, the ageing bit didn't work for me as she looked more like a teacher than a student but that is a small point and I think she will be a good addition to the Wayward offshoot although I probably won't watch even though I really like Sheriff Jody Mills and Donna Hanscum i.e. Kim and Briana though have my doubts about Claire. Also liked the good hunter Dean moments. Then the negatives start to come in, I didn't like Sam's condescending attitude to Dean, nor did I like the one dimensional Dean is angry and not being anything but angry. His comment – don't know which one to hug first – was so totally deadpan it had no warmth whatsoever and I understand he is being written and playing the everyone is dead (apart from Sam of course) so I am (Dean not me!!) …..........well I am not sure what to be honest – angry, withdrawn, suicidal, but surely meeting up with “old” friend is a good thing a warm hug to Jody would surely be more realistic, i.e. at least some of their friends are alive but I certainly didn't get any warm and snuggly feels from Dean for either Jody or Missouri. I am not particularly liking how they are writing Sam or Dean at the moment – they are almost parodies of themselves. So I enjoyed what worked for me and I guess I have to handwave the rest. Side point, Castiel is not my favourite character (writing, writing, writing) although I have learnt to live with him (love Misha to bits though!) but hoping beyond hope that they can come up with a good storyline for him in this Season.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Icarus said:

Then the negatives start to come in, I didn't like Sam's condescending attitude to Dean, nor did I like the one dimensional Dean is angry and not being anything but angry. His comment – don't know which one to hug first – was so totally deadpan it had no warmth whatsoever and I understand he is being written and playing the everyone is dead (apart from Sam of course) so I am (Dean not me!!) …..........well I am not sure what to be honest – angry, withdrawn, suicidal, but surely meeting up with “old” friend is a good thing a warm hug to Jody would surely be more realistic, i.e. at least some of their friends are alive but I certainly didn't get any warm and snuggly feels from Dean for either Jody or Missouri. I am not particularly liking how they are writing Sam or Dean at the moment – they are almost parodies of themselves. 

I think the writing for Dean’s grief and Jensen’s acting has been stellar. I find it VERY nuanced.  Dean starts off the episode with a 12 pack of dead soldiers (drunken beer bottles) listening to a brain melting song from The Rolling Stones.  He has a fresh bottle in his hand when they are talking about Jody.  

Dean reacts viscerally to Sam’s ‘we need Jack’ argument. First I thought it was ‘I heard you the first time’ dismissal, now we know Dean’s pissed at Sam selling Jack as an inter dimensional can-opener and feels that’s dishonest.  

He’s barely keeping it together w/Missouri and Jody and his ‘dandy’ response was a ‘don’t ask’ response.  Both Missouri (even in their limited interactions) and Jody know that was a great big signal flare that Dean is not going to want to talk about his losses and NEEDS to focus on the case.  And even though Missouri was facing death, she got straight into Dean’s face and told him to save her family. She not only needed that from him but she was letting him know she was relying on him.  Further, when Dean found out she knew she was dying and didn’t come, he had to know that this woman gave him her dying wish.  That’s a pretty profound level of trust and interchange right there IMO.  

When Sam snaps at Dean for telling Jack he’d kill him, Dean first tries to play it off and then he just opens up a can of pain.  And this is such a different level for Dean.  It’s not parody, this is raw.  He’s literally screaming at Sam that he thinks Jack mislead Cas and got Cas killed.  He’s lost his cool.  And the impression is clear, IMO:  THIS is how Dean is feeling right now.  The earlier beer and music were a good metaphor.  He’s doing everything to full the pain but it’s screaming in his head.  How is this parody?

 

Now let’s talk Sam. Sam KNOWS Dean is in pain and he’s shut down. So EVERY interaction is a negotiation.  He’s not condescending, he’s trying to make a case.  He doesn’t see that Dean has not only heard everything that Sam has already said, but is still rejecting 100% any attempt to humanize Jack.  And Dean is so harsh because Sam keeps trying.  It’s not til the end that Sam really hears how Dean is feeling. And it isn’t ‘dead inside’, it’s white-hot rage and grief.  

With Jack, Sam is IMO making all the right moves.  He thought control was the obvious first step.  But now he knows the extent of damage Jack’s psyche has already taken. Perhaps Dean didn’t mention the stab-a-thon. Seems like the boys aren’t talking.  

And Sam demonstrated that he’s finally OVER being triggered by the word ‘freak’.  (Note:If you think that word usage by Dean is unintentional, then you really have no appreciation for how injured Dean is by Sam helping the ‘thing’ that killed Cas). But Sam knew it and pressed on.  He called out what he thought was hypocrisy on Dean’s part.  That Dean thinks Sam was not as bad as Jack is.  Honestly, I’m personally inclined to agree with Sam.  Sam was in much worse shape than Jack.  So Sam did a decent job, IMO, of hearing Dean and responding with a reasonable argument.  

But I don’t think Sam was prepared for Dean to release his rage like that.  And Sam does not hold Jack responsible for Cas’ death. ETA: And Sam laid a trap for Dean to force that conversation. He clearly had talked to Jody  He took Missouri’s death off the table. Sam wanted to confront Dean about messing up Jack’s psyche and he effectively forced the issue.

In years past, this would have been a much more surface conversation and neither brother IMO would have ‘opened up a vein’ like they did in that final conversation.  It’s a testament to how strong their relationship has been that they can’t go back to truly ignoring the topic until the feels go away.  They are not going away for either. And they are not on the same page but at least both understand each other better IMO.  

So, ‘one dimensional’ and ‘parody’?   I just don’t see how those words applied.  It was raw and complicated from my perspective.  

Edited October 28, 2017 by SueB

[Wynne88]

Great analysis, SueB.  The conversations between Sam and Dean were really uncomfortable to listen to, as they should be.  The one place I think it breaks down a bit, though, is when Sam passed on the case to Jody without even mentioning it to Dean. He came across (to me) as clueless as to why that was a problem.