S07.E04: Beauty

[formerlyfreedom]

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It's Halloween in Hyperion Heights and Victoria forces Ivy to take Lucy trick-or-treating. Meanwhile, Tilly appears to be waking up from the curse and is intent on leading Weaver to the truth – but not if Victoria can help it. In a flashback, Rumple and Belle seek the answer to a prophecy that could cement their happy ending.

[Worsel]

I liked this episode primarily because of the wonderful acting by Robert and Emilie.  Belle's death scene was well done, and I admit I got a bit teary watching it.  I also enjoyed Tilley/Alice.  I will admit the scenes of them building the house were a bit silly - no way to do all of that by themselves without some magic!  But even the cloying cuteness of it all did not detract from the wonderful emotions between Rumple and Belle.

Unfortunately the Hyperion Heights scenes were not as much fun to watch, particularly Jacinda and Henry's scenes - still no chemistry.  I liked Ivy who appears to have more chemistry with Henry.  Victoria continues to be insufficiently threatening - so far, she is not as good a villain as the Evil Queen.  

Overall, best episode of this new season, although that may not be saying much...

[InsertWordHere]

Hey, I finally got to watch live this season. Not that I’ve really been missing much. I don’t dislike Cinderella that much, but I’m totally onboard with A&E doing one of their much-loved twists and having Lucy be the daughter of Henry and Drizella instead, whether by adoption or a different biological father or birthmother or what have you. It would be much more interesting than what they’ve got going on right now. 

If I didn’t know their true relationship, I’d think Roni was romantically interested in Henry, based on the body language Parrilla uses in scenes with him. 

[KingOfHearts]

Well. That episode went from interesting to rage-inducing quick.

* Belle is "used to the chaos"? She's usually asleep through it.
* Rumple went an entire year without using the Dagger? All the character development really does happen offscreen.
* Confession: I freaking adore Alice and how campy her insanity is. She really brought the fun back to this dead show. 
* I loved all the Wonderland references. Orange marmalade, "we're all mad here", etc.
* Chuckled at the Elsa costume. Keep it Disney, Disney.
* Zelena got a mention! That's one small step...
* We finally got some Henry/Jacinda banter that felt somewhat okay and wasn't about their depressing lives.
* Jacinda was willing to quit her job again? I know her daughter was missing, but couldn't she tell the manager or call the police or something?
* Ew. Rumple is "pure of heart"? Get out of here with that, Alice.
* If the sandwich tasted funny, why didn't Alice spit it out? Did she really eat enough to fog up her whole brain?
* The Edge of Realms? WTF? I thought this was an infinite multiverse. 
* So Belle decided to inconvenience Rumple by building the house just so he wouldn't have to use his Dagger. What's so wrong about using magic again?
* Whoever speculated there would be "parallels" to Up weren't kidding. That obvious ripoff was really distracting, and it sucked.
* The marriage montage did nothing for me. I really couldn't care less about Rumpbelle's golden years.
* Why didn't Rumple keep Belle young? He just let his wife age and die.
* If Rumple wanted a mortal life, why couldn't they just move to the Land Without Magic? Belle wanted to see the world. It would have suited them both perfectly.
* I should have smirked at the Snow White costume, but it just made me miss Mary Margaret.
* Ivy opened up to Henry waaaay too easily. She doesn't seem like the type of person who would be so in-tuned with her feelings. She has no reason to like or trust Henry.
* Using "Swyft" was cringey. It would have been passable if Ivy said, "I don't need an Uber driver" and Henry said, "It's Swyft, actually."
* How could I feel bad at all for Belle's death when we just found out she lied to her husband for years? Again, this relationship is based on deception.
* Poor Gideon. He had to watch his mother age quicker than he should have. They're horrible parents.
 

There was only change needed to propel this episode into "surpisingly good" - keep Rumple dead. I was so excited when Rumple got shot. It was unexpected, his character had nowhere else to go, and it would have tied his arc with Belle together with a neat little bow. It would have shown us the writers had balls. But nope. There is not one darn reason to keep him alive. I'd trade him for Alice in a nano-second. I still think this episode is probably the best of S7 so far, but that's not saying much at all.

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I don’t dislike Cinderella that much, but I’m totally onboard with A&E doing one of their much-loved twists and having Lucy be the daughter of Henry and Drizella instead

Is it bad I ship Henry and Drizella? They have more chemistry than Henry and Murderella. They kind of deserve each other.

Edited October 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[txhorns79]

I thought this was a great episode, and perhaps that was because Henry/Jacinda/Lucy were mostly sidelined.  And it's true, Henry seems to have better chemistry with Ivy.   

I liked that Belle's story was largely completed in a way that I think honors the happy ending the couple was given.  I also really liked the scenes with Rumple and Alice.  They play well off each other, and made me interested to see what comes next.   

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah....so that was surprisingly better than I thought it would be. There's definitely an issue when Andrew J West and Adelaide Kane have more chemistry than Andrew and Dania. I thought briefly at the end scene that Ivy might have been drugging him because she was still loyal to Victoria, but her going crazy over Henry could be fun. There was too little of Ivy/Henry; even their two scenes together had me wanting more.

Yep; Alice is Wish!Hook's daughter. Like...show, you used to be a little more subtle about things. Now, you're just screaming LOOK, DO YOU SEE IT? at me. That chess scene, with Tilly inviting Rogers to play chess with her? Come on; I think now everyone can see it from a mile away.

I did like the Rumple/Belle scenes, surprisingly. Although the Edge of Realms confused the hell out of me, Belle's death was surprisingly handled well. I even almost felt sad about it. The acting really was well done; I've been sick of Rumbelle since about late season 2, especially with the poor use of Emilie throughout the series, but this episode reminded me of their early season 1 scenes, but mostly their first flashback episode together. So at least they ended on a high note. Nice of Belle to basically trick Rumple and play his own game but making it seem like they had a lot longer to be together and find a way to make him mortal. Though I missed the first couple of minutes so Belle having a strand of grey hair while Gideon was supposed to only be 10 kind of confused me as to how old Belle was supposed to be. 

Victoria is seriously the worst villain they've had. I'm sorry, but Regina's evil season 1 self was so much better and scarier, and her tactics for keeping people unaware worked better. Victoria's whole "take your pills" is just pathetic. And now Rumple is not Weaver, but himself again, so at least we have someone FINALLY awake. I think that's what has annoyed me for these four episodes. Everyone is under a curse, and the only person, besides Lucy, who is aware has appeared in less than eight scenes total, and her only scene of self-awareness is a long four minute scene with some random witch last episode. OUAT had Emma and Henry not part of the curse, so they were awake. We saw Regina, early on, know about the curse and we had scenes of her going into her vault to do what needed to be done. We even had the revelation of Rumple being aware to some degree, or at least they toyed with the idea for a while. And that's what they are missing. With everyone under their curse personas, it felt disconnected from the flashbacks. 

Yeah....I think, in order for me to want a potential eighth season, getting rid of Jacinda would help a lot. I'm still undecided on Lucy, but probably get rid of her as well. Then keep Alice/Tilly around, because she was fairly awesome. She had a weird mouth tic when she talked, especially noticeable in the car with Victoria, but her character was fun. 

I did laugh at the shot of Henry driving by Rumple and Alice in the forest on his motorcycle. 

[Rumsy4]

Alice is WHook's daughter!!! So, one hunch confirmed. And she is also the LGBT character. That chess scene with Rogerss at the end had me flailing more than anything else.

It's official--Henry has more chemistry with literally anyone other than Jacinda. Ivy Swyft FTW!

Regina was dressed like Monica in Friends when she worked for that sexist cafeteria. I missed her scene becasue my friend called me on the phone abotu something urgent, and I had to mute it. I also missed the scene where Rogers and Weaver were walking. Could anyone recap those scenes if possible?

Rumbelle did nothing for me. I'm curious to know if Rumbellers were satisfied. Rumple's eternal flip flopping and abuse right till the end of S6 is not going to be washed away by a too-sweet montage. The fake CGI and zero-conflict scenes made it seem surreal. They seem to have traveled a bit, but then settle down to a pretty isolated life. I guess deep down Belle knew that the only way to keep Rumple "good" was to isolate him from everyone else. I almost took it as a sacrifice. But, Rumple seems to be "awake" now.

Victoria is no Mayor Mills. And it's bothering more and more that she has custody of Lucy over Jacinda. I'm over this weak ass curse. Also, her daughter being missing again should have Jacinda freaking out. It's not natural for her to let other people search for her missing daughter. What the fork (thanks, Good Place)??

Edited October 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Noneofyourbusiness]

So, unanswered questions:

1. How did Rumple find out about a "Guardian" between scenes? Was it in one of Belle's books/scrolls?

2. What prompted Tilly to suddenly stop taking her pills?

3. What's in those pills? Why does no one ask what they are or what her condition is called? Who's giving them to her? It can't be normal medicine to have the effect of making her forget her real memories; that would be magic. And why curse her to be awake-unless-she-takes-pills in the first place?

4. Does Victoria know who Tilly/Alice is? Tilly called them "her" pills, but Victoria asked her who she was in the car and seemed too shocked to be covering.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[txhorns79]

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Regina was dressed like Monica in Friends when she worked for that sexist cafeteria. I missed her scene because my friend called me on the phone about something urgent, and I had to mute it. I also missed the scene where Rogers and Weaver were walking. Could anyone recap those scenes if possible?

Regina and Monica (on Friends) were both dressed like Marilyn Monroe. 

[KingOfHearts]

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And she is also the LGBT character.

When was this confirmed? I think I missed something.

It was good to see the residents of HH celebrating Halloween. It made everything feel so much more alive. It echoed Miner's Day and Valentines from S1. This episode seemed to be a combination of "Skin Deep" and "Hat Trick". 

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Henry/ Jacinda stuff? Still don't care. 

Just get rid of Jacinda, Victoria, Weaver, and Lucy, and you have a decent cast of characters.

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Is she gonna get a backstory? Lana is being wasted.

For the first time in forever, I'm waiting for a Regina centric.

Edited October 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

Good episode. I like Alice/Tilly.

I really miss Storybrooke and The Charmings.

Henry/ Jacinda stuff? Still don't care. It seems like Lucy isn't as interested in convincing them of the curse as Henry was in Season 1.

I got teary eyed at Up, er, I mean Rumple and Belle's story.

Has Robert always had that gut or is that costume padding?

I don't like that Regina is the new Snow. Is she gonna get a backstory? Lana is being wasted.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

When was this confirmed? I think I missed something.

She mentioned an ex-girlfriend who had worked for Belfrey.

[Senna]

I will admit I felt a twinge when the flashbacks of Rumpel and Belle's early relationship came up.  Skin Deep was my favorite episode of the first season.  Unfortunately what followed in the series (lies, sleeping spells, more lies) irrevocably screwed up the couple in my eyes, so I didn't really "buy" all the sweetness of their happy (rip-off of Up) married life, and I cracked up every time someone claimed Rumpel was "pure of heart."  (Really, show?  Really??)

I was also a bit confused by the prophecy and Belle's interpretation of it.  Rumpel just thought they were waiting for the sun to set, but Belle interpreted the sun setting as her death, right?  So she purposely decided to stay in a place where her life would be comparatively shortened?  (I assume because our other characters aren't that old yet.)  That's pretty dark and kinda sad -- sacrificial for Rumpel, but sucks for her son (and who knows if her interpretation is even correct).  And somehow Rumpel didn't seem to be aware this (her aging and eventually dying) was happening?  Rumpel just looked really dumb.  And I'm pretty sure I yelled "Your relationship is nothing but secrets!" when Belle made her deathbed reveal.  And then Rumpel starts talking about needing to give his dagger to a guardian -- where did that come from?

I was interested in Alice and am curious about what happened in her fairy tale past, since she's obviously WHook's daughter but seemed kind of normal when she met Rumpel (as opposed to the crazy realm-hopper we saw in the first episode).

As of this episode, Ivy is my favorite of the new characters.  I have a soft spot for prissy characters like her.

All that said, this episode was way more interesting than the last couple (which is not saying much ...) and gave me some actual curiosity for where the story is going.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Senna

[Shanna Marie]

I spent the entire episode shouting at the TV, "What about a True Love's Kiss?" After all, it almost worked before, until he stopped it, and then Belle told Hook that the TLK would work to lift the Dark One curse only if the Dark One didn't see it as a curse. So, when he really wanted to be rid of it, shouldn't a kiss have worked? Plus, he was rid of it, with his heart washed pure, and he chose to take it back and to do more and more evil. Ugh.

The Up thing really bugged me. It's one thing to take familiar stories and incorporate them into a fairy tale mashup plot and give them a twist. When you're just dumping your characters into an entirely unrelated story that doesn't even match up or fit thematically, it's just lazy writing, trying to give this plot the emotions from that famous opening sequence of Up. That was a story about a couple growing old together, having to put off their planned adventures, never being able to have children, and him only realizing after her death that the life they'd had was really an adventure. This was a story about a woman growing old and dying while the man remained immortal, after they'd had a kid and had adventures. They have nothing to do with each other.

I like Ivy. She and Henry do have a lot more of a spark than he has with Jacinda. Tilly is fun, but she barely took one bite of that sandwich. She shouldn't have got enough of the drug to make a difference.

Every time they mentioned Jacinda not being able to see Lucy or Victoria knowing about Tilly's diagnosis and prescription, I shouted "That's not how any of this works!"

And poor Rogers, I guess he gets a costume rather than clothes. In no life is he allowed to have different outfits.

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

* The Edge of Realms? WTF? I thought this was an infinite multiverse. 

Flat Earth Multiverse Confirmed. 

16 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

There was only change needed to propel this episode into "surpisingly good" - keep Rumple dead. I was so excited when Rumple got shot. It was unexpected, his character had nowhere else to go, and it would have tied his arc with Belle together with a neat little bow.

That would have made too much sense? I too was half-expecting him to stay dead and be reunited with Belle in the Underworld. And what's all this crap about a Guardian? Is that going to be poor Alice?? Ugh... 

13 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Regina and Monica (on Friends) were both dressed like Marilyn Monroe. 

I can't believe I missed that! haha

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

When was this confirmed? I think I missed something.

11 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She mentioned an ex-girlfriend who had worked for Belfrey.

Yup.

[KingOfHearts]

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I spent the entire episode shouting at the TV, "What about a True Love's Kiss?" After all, it almost worked before, until he stopped it, and then Belle told Hook that the TLK would work to lift the Dark One curse only if the Dark One didn't see it as a curse. So, when he really wanted to be rid of it, shouldn't a kiss have worked? Plus, he was rid of it, with his heart washed pure, and he chose to take it back and to do more and more evil. Ugh.

They spent years researching a solution when the show has already given us three. Either you have to TLK, go to a Land Without Magic, or channel the darkness into someone and kill them. It's especially frustrating because the entire show hinges on Bae's decision to move to LWM in order to free Rumple of the DO curse. The show already setup ways to amend this problem, and the writers blatantly ignore them just to keep Weaver around. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 minutes ago, Senna said:

And somehow Rumpel didn't seem to be aware this (her aging and eventually dying) was happening? 

He was aware. He didn't know it was intentional, that the sun was never going to literally set, and that she was going to refuse to be magically youthened.

[ParadoxLost]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And poor Rogers, I guess he gets a costume rather than clothes. In no life is he allowed to have different outfits.

Meanwhile Rumple got a new jacket to disguise his awful jeans and shirt.  At least the jean jacket is gone.  But the jeans are more noticeably strategically faded which screams 'he has one pair of jeans'.  His shirt remains unbuttoned for reasons I fail to comprehend.  And don't think I didn't notice that his new jacket was trying to camouflage that it was camouflage.

I hope his 'dearie' at the end means he got his memory back and he'll change his clothes.

And he had a collar in his flashback that was trying to swallow his head.

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

That would have made too much sense? I too was half-expecting him to stay dead and be reunited with Belle in the Underworld. And what's all this crap about a Guardian? Is that going to be poor Alice?? Ugh... 

Henry.  I am positive its Henry. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Henry.  I am positive its Henry. 

I don't know. It might be too much to ask for the writers to remember Henry is supposed to be Rumple's "undoing".

[ParadoxLost]

Just now, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I don't know. It might be too much to ask for the writers to remember Henry is supposed to be Rumple's "undoing".

I didn't even remember that.   It just seems like if they decided that someone could be the Gaurdian of the dagger and end the Dark Curse that it would be Heart of the Truest Believer, Henry.

[pezgirl7]

So we're all pretty sure that Alice is WHook's daughter now? Because when I mentioned it after the first episode, no one seemed on board, and everyone thought it would be Rapunzel. LOL Alice really is manic, even in FTL. She's fun to watch.

I actually teared up a bit when Belle and Rumple were dancing to Beauty and the Beast. I don't know if it's because I thought it was touching, or if it was just because I knew what was coming for Belle.

So now we're going to have a love triangle with Henry, Ivy and Jacinda? BORING

Why is Colin being so underused? I hope his storyline gets more interesting.

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I don't know. It might be too much to ask for the writers to remember Henry is supposed to be Rumple's "undoing".

It would be good if the writers brought that prophecy back to tie in with the "Guardian" thing, but I doubt it.

1 minute ago, pezgirl7 said:

So we're all pretty sure that Alice is WHook's daughter now? Because when I mentioned it after the first episode, no one seemed on board, and everyone thought it would be Rapunzel. LOL Alice really is manic, even in FTL. She's fun to watch.

I donno. Opinion seemed pretty divided. For some reason everyone had a mass hallucination and heard that WHook's daughter was imprisoned in a Tower. And that's where the Rapunzel spec started. But the chess imagery pointed to Alice. I wrote a fic where WHook's daughter was named Alice. :-)

[Lady Calypso]

Oh, and another thing that kind of got me irrationally annoyed. The scene where Roni gives Henry that alcoholic "Poison Apple" drink and he comments that it needs cinnamon. First off, a dash of cinnamon in an alcoholic drink doesn't sound good at all. If it was an apple cider drink, then maybe. So writers, the "cute" throwbacks are too forced. And secondly, all I could think of when Roni gave Henry that drink was the time where Regina accidentally poisoned her own son when she was trying to poison Emma instead, so Henry taking a sip, I inwardly cringed as I had those flashbacks. Yes, show, I know that Regina's thing in season 1 was poisoned apples...but I probably conjured up the wrong image for it to not be annoying. 

[ParadoxLost]

9 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

It would be good if the writers brought that prophecy back to tie in with the "Guardian" thing, but I doubt it.

I donno. Opinion seemed pretty divided. For some reason everyone had a mass hallucination and heard that WHook's daughter was imprisoned in a Tower. And that's where the Rapunzel spec started. But the chess imagery pointed to Alice. I wrote a fic where WHook's daughter was named Alice. :-)

I remain unconvinced that this wasn't a fake out and that the other "dead" stepsister is his daughter.  WHook and Tremaine  seemed like they had a "past".

Rumple showing up around the time Cinderella and Henry meet has me more convinced that Lucy is Cinderella and Henry's adopted daughter.  I don't see how they stall the curse for a decade and then cast it with all the cast of flashback characters conveniently still together.

Edited October 28, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[CCTC]

I will start this off by admitting I have a Belle-Rumple bias thinking it was a toxic relationship and they should never had Belle go back to him - so my viewing was shaded by that.

That said - it probably was the best episode of the season.

Again, anit-Rumbelle bias, but I thought most of their scenes came off as false -- it just did not jive with who Rumple is even if had reformed.  Also, would Belle really be attracted to someone as sappy as that version of Rumple.  Their life seemed so isolated and just there.  It was like a Thomas Kincaide painting on steroids with some elements of a Hallmark movie at its sappiest.  On a positive note, I do think their final scene was touching and well acted and showed real emotion.  The actors connected well and it was the best acting I have seen Robert do in awhile.   For Rumbelle fans they did give them a pretty decent send-off and gave Belle more to do than Emma a few weeks ago.

Henry not only had more chemistry with Ivy, but  Ivy's character, while not nice, seemed more layered and the actress showed some more subtext than Jacinda.    She did a better job at showing some underlying vulnerability and showed potential for being a fleshed out character.

The Henry Roni scene almost seemed like it was intentionally staged to show off inappropriate chemistry.

I have not decided whether I like Alice or not.  She has potential to be interesting, but am not sure the actress is up to it, but I need to see more of her.  I did kind of wish that had been Rimple's ending - shot where he is not the dark one and being able to die and join Belle.  Weaver does not seem different than Gold, and I don't feel like going through another Rumple is good deep inside and will find his way again so he can die and join Belle.   I would like to tell him that it might be time to move on from the whisper talk all the time.   Also, the pure heart line was hard to swallow. 

It seems like it should take more than a bite of smashed pill for it to do its thing.

Victoria came off as pretty non-threatening, esp. since Rumple clearly was not scared of her at the end.    If he does have his memory back, does that mean he will be playing games with Regina and Henry and Wish Hook while they are clueless?

They were not exactly subtle with Hook and the chess piece.

The Edge of Realm end must have been a different pace of time since Gold appeared in the Cinderella realm after Belle died of old age and Regina had not aged and Henry is about five years older (I am assuming he is in his early twenties so he can be in his late twenties or early thirties in the present time with his preadolescent daughter.

Edited October 28, 2017 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I remain unconvinced that this wasn't a fake out and that the other "dead" stepsister is his daughter.  WHook and Tremaine  seemed like they had a "past".

I was going to type a lengthy post as to why the timeline wouldn't make it possible, but then I realized what Show I was watching. lol Still, I think Alice is WHook's Little Rook. It seems to unnecessary to do a fake out at this point.

[Watt]

I thought ivy was playing Henry, actually. Getting close on purpose for some nefarious reason. It's too bad because I like ivy and Henry actually has chemistry with her unlike jacinda.

 

I enjoy Tilly.

[ParadoxLost]

2 minutes ago, CCTC said:

The Edge of Realm end must have been a different pace of time since Gold appeared in the Cinderella realm after Belle died of old age and Regina had not aged and Henry is about five years older (I am assuming he is in his early twenties so he can be in his late twenties or early thirties in the present time with his preadolescent daughter.

The time was completely whacked in this episode.

Belle and Rumple traveled the world for ten years.  Then they were settled down in a home until Gideon was eighteen.  Belle was aging at an alarming rate.  I knew she was dead before the end of the episode when I saw the strip of grey hair.

Then they go to the Edge of the Realm where Gideon visits but doesn't really age while away.  Belle does age and dies.

Then Rumple leaves and coincides with Henry meeting Cinderella which should be eighteen years after he left Storybrooke according to his back story.  But wasn't according to Regina/Hook/Emma ages.

If time was going in reverse while Rumple was in Edge of Realm, Gideon should have been younger again.

[cappoe]

No shock to anybody Henry has way better chemistry with Ivy then his true love. 

[Terrafamilia]

Yeah, Rumple is "pure of heart." They didn't say pure what however.

Count me on the Henry/Ivy train.

Did my ears deceive me or did I hear someone say something about a list of where she (Lucy) "may have went"? Grrrr, I hate that supposedly professional writers these days can't be bothered to care about the language with which they make their living.

[Writing Wrongs]

I thought Rumple had some explanation about time there?

What is the connection between the name Tilly and her being Alice?

 

Regarding Hook's daughter:

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A vengeful witch trapped her in a prison. Every day, I'd sneak in to play chess with her. But I was discovered and punished. My heart was poisoned, cursed. So I can never save her. I knew I knew that true love was the cure. So I roamed the realms seeking it, but it was futile. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by Writing Wrongs

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 minute ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I thought Rumple had some explanation about time there?

What is the connection between the name Tilly and her being Alice?

Yes, but it still seems inconsistent with the New Enchanted Forest timeline.

Tilly was one of three sisters in the Dormouse's story during the Mad Tea Party.

[VoicePlaya]

Not a terrible episode. Alice/Tilly is interesting so far, though she's one that could easily start to get on my nerves depending on how they use her. But I'm okay with her for the time being. Liked her with Rogers and it definitely does look like she's WHook's daughter. 

Victoria remains impossible for me to take seriously. Not a fan of the actress either.

I like Henry better with Ivy. I'm not convinced that she's not playing him, but they do have chemistry.

 

49 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina was dressed like Monica in Friends when she worked for that sexist cafeteria. I missed her scene becasue my friend called me on the phone abotu something urgent, and I had to mute it. I also missed the scene where Rogers and Weaver were walking. Could anyone recap those scenes if possible?

Rumbelle did nothing for me. I'm curious to know if Rumbellers were satisfied. Rumple's eternal flip flopping and abuse right till the end of S6 is not going to be washed away by a too-sweet montage. 

I wasn't paying complete attention during those scenes, but Regina was wondering why Henry seemed down after spending time with Jacinda and Lucy and he told her that he'd been by the cemetary where his wife and daughter were buried. She was basically encouraging him to ask Jacinda to some Halloween party or something and he wasn't sure if he was ready for that.

 Weaver and Rogers were talking about Tilly. Weaver was telling him to let him (Weaver) handle his informant the way he wanted to and I think Rogers made a comment about how he thought that Weaver cared about Tilly, but Weaver shot that down. 

I'm curious about how Rumbellers feel too. The montage was sweet, a little too much so, but all I kept thinking about was how abusive the relationship was. The acting was good and seeing Belle die was sad, but that wasn't enough to make me forget about what a terrible relationship they had. All the comments about Rumple having a pure heart and being a good man were tough to swallow.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I thought Rumple had some explanation about time there?

What is the connection between the name Tilly and her being Alice?

He did say that time works differently in the Edge of Realms....which is code for them playing with time however they want because who cares?

I personally wasn't bugged about Rumple going back to whatever Enchanted Forest Henry's been in, because sure, I guess Rumple can now travel back in time or whatever. 

What bugged me more was the rapid aging of Belle and how Rumple either didn't notice how quickly it was going, or how he allowed Belle to presumably convince him to not use magic on her until it was too late. Like...did he not care to magic her young at any point? Did he not question that they were supposed to have an eternity, or what would feel like an eternity, and they didn't? 

[Rumsy4]

27 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I remain unconvinced that this wasn't a fake out and that the other "dead" stepsister is his daughter.  WHook and Tremaine  seemed like they had a "past".

One possibility is that Alice met WHook's daughter in her travels and she taught her to play chess. Maybe she's the ex-girlfriend she remembers in her Curse memories. Buuut I think Alice is the daughter.

1 minute ago, VoicePlaya said:

I wasn't paying complete attention during those scenes, but Regina was wondering why Henry seemed down after spending time with Jacinda and Lucy and he told her that he'd been by the cemetary where his wife and daughter were buried. She was basically encouraging him to ask Jacinda to some Halloween party or something and he wasn't sure if he was ready for that.

 Weaver and Rogers were talking about Tilly. Weaver was telling him to let him (Weaver) handle his informant the way he wanted to and I think Rogers made a comment about how he thought that Weaver cared about Tilly, but Weaver shot that down. 

Thank you!!  

3 minutes ago, VoicePlaya said:

All the comments about Rumple having a pure heart and being a good man were tough to swallow

I was rolling my eyes. A&E think they can convince everyone Rumple and Regina are practically saints now if they keep repeating it long enough.

[Shanna Marie]

50 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's especially frustrating because the entire show hinges on Bae's decision to move to LWM in order to free Rumple of the DO curse.

And "travel" doesn't have to mean visiting fairytale lands. As with Henry, there are adventures to be had in our world. Belle and Rumple could easily have moved out of Storybrooke and gone to London, Paris, Moscow, China, India, Australia, Paradise Falls, wherever. Just as Henry could have found ways to be a hero in our world without realm jumping. And Rumple would have been an ordinary mortal in these places. So the whole dilemma was utterly contrived and unnecessary.

I wonder if Rumple knows that Rogers isn't his Hook. They'd still have the same initial history, though WHook ran away with WRumple's wife, not this Rumple's wife. They'd have a lot less water under the bridge than Rumple has with our Hook, but on the other hand, they wouldn't have formed the same apparent truce (Hook was not only invited to Gideon's birthday party, but was on the list of people bringing stuff, so I assume there's a truce).

44 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

So we're all pretty sure that Alice is WHook's daughter now? Because when I mentioned it after the first episode, no one seemed on board, and everyone thought it would be Rapunzel.

I don't know. This early in the season, with that being one of the big questions, I'm guessing it's a fakeout. These writers consider setting something up or giving clues to be spoiling their shocking surprise twists.

46 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Why is Colin being so underused? I hope his storyline gets more interesting.

I was getting annoyed at so little Rogers, but then I reminded myself that Colin has a small child and a newborn at home, so he and his wife are probably perfectly okay with him working a couple of days a week. For this episode, he probably had to show up for the location shoot for the walking with Weaver scene, and then there was probably a day in the studio for the hospital scene, and otherwise he could be home with his family. He's got as good a deal as his character, who gets to live with his wife and child with her parents and without his annoying stepson, without his wife's toxic "BFF", and without worrying that Rumple will put Belle under a sleeping curse so he's free to do something horrible to him again.

12 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Did my ears deceive me or did I hear someone say something about a list of where she (Lucy) "may have went"? Grrrr, I hate that supposedly professional writers these days can't be bothered to care about the language with which they make their living.

I heard it, too. I had to correct it out loud. And not only do professional writers write like that, but they had a character who's supposedly a novelist say it, which tells me it was an unintentional error, not something they did deliberately to fit a character.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Thank you!! 

To be specific, since "seemed down after spending time with Jacinda and Lucy" could be interpreted as spending time with them making him down, Roni meant that the last time she had seen Henry was in her bar near the end of "The Garden of Forking Paths", when he was with Jacinda and Lucy and they were happy. He told her that since then he'd walked through the cemetery where his wife and daughter were buried.

Also, she said that she knew how losing a love like that could make a person want to give up on life, but encouraged him to find happiness with Jacinda and said that his having loved once was proof that he was meant to do so again.

And Weaver brought up Rogers being champion of young girls and told him not to bring his missing girl case into Weaver's work.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Noneofyourbusiness

[snarkastic]

I'm voting Alice as not Whook's daughter because it was her black rook that he carried with him, and she had his white knight, as if they were always the same colour, but at the end they played as opposite. He was black and she was white. Also, to keep with the trend of copying everything from season one, there needs to be an August pretending he's Baelfire type takeout.

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, snarkastic said:

Also, to keep with the trend of copying everything from season one, there needs to be an August pretending he's Baelfire type takeout.

That's the stongest argument for her not being WHook's daughter. OTOH, she's one of the recurring characters this season. I would expect to have WHook and his daughter interact and form a bond without knowing who they really are. We'll see...

4 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Also, she said that she knew how losing a love like that could make a person want to give up on life, but encouraged him to find happiness with Jacinda and said that his having loved once was proof that he was meant to do so again.

Thanks. Maybe I'm glad I missed another hope speech from St. Roni! lol

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Maybe I'm glad I missed another hope speech from St. Roni! lol

You saved yourself much eyerolling at the irony of someone who dedicated decades to getting revenge on someone tangentially involved with her love's death and avoiding any chance at finding happiness again giving the "you can find love again" speech.

10 minutes ago, snarkastic said:

Also, to keep with the trend of copying everything from season one, there needs to be an August pretending he's Baelfire type takeout.

Yes, that plus their fear of setting things up because that might spoil their surprise twist is what has me pretty sure that Tilly/Alice isn't WHook's daughter.

[Curio]

I only caught the last 5 minutes... so I was able to watch the chess scene. I tend to agree with those who think it's way too early in the season to reveal Rogers' daughter, even though I'd much prefer it if Alice is the daughter. Would it kill the writers to drop clues and not do a 180 switcheroo that makes no sense at the end of the arc? Can Alice just be the daughter so we can grow to enjoy the Captain Rook moments in Hyperion Heights more?

Based on previous seasons, TS;TW will probably keep dropping anvil hints that Alice is Rogers' daughter, and they'll probably share many scenes together where they have great chemistry, and the audience will be fooled into believing they have this great father/daughter connection... and then wham! the finale will reveal all of those Captain Rook moments were just fakeout scenes and the real daughter will only get 2 minutes of screentime, but the writers will expect the audience to have the same emotional connection to the brand new character we've never met before.

I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

[Rumsy4]

Gideon was such a non-entity this episode. It was all sooo perfect with him going off to some fairy tale academy and offering to kill his  dad and become the Dark One (there's the Gidiot we know).

Why was Belle so content to grow old and die when her son was still so young? It's odd. Couldn't she have gone on more adventures with her family and then come back to the Edge of Reason Realms to die? At least she would have been part of her son's life for a longer time. Why was she ageing in a land where time was frozen? The timeline made no sense.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[thuganomics85]

If I look past all of the post toxic behavior and creepiness of their relationship throughout the years, that was actually a pretty solid ending for Rumple and Belle.  Yes, it is sad that Belle died, but at least it was of old age and Rumple did get to have some good years with her.  Granted, most of this is probably credit to Robert Carlyle and even Emilie de Ravin for selling the hell out of it, but the flashbacks were easily the highlight of the reboot so far (even if I could tell they were cribbing from Up for a lot of it.) But Rumple's thing is that he wants to no longer be immortal, so he needs to find some kind of Guardian?  And I guess we'll find out how he ends up getting effected by the curse as well.  Likely will have something to do with Alice, I imagine.

Speaking of Alice, so it seems like she/Tilly actually needs to be drugged by Victoria/Tremaine in order to stay in line and if not, she could expose everything? Of course, she's now back on the pills, but judging from Rumple's "dearie" at the end, I guess they are hinting he could get his memories back.

For the top billed stars, Lana Parrilla and Colin O'Donoghue sure got to take it easy tonight.

Ha, wow, the idea of having more Ivy/Drizella and having her interact with Henry is majorly backfiring right now, because Adelaide Kane is clearly a superior actress compared to Dania Ramirez, and has way better chemistry with Andrew J. West.  I have no idea if her feelings are sincere or if she's playing him, but I would vastly prefer them over Henry and Jacinda.  If nothing else, it would also mean that Lucy will probably whine and freakout over it, which would make delight the evil side that I apparently have!

They seem like had way more CGI shots for this episode, so I wouldn't be surprised if the next few episodes are suddenly smaller in that aspect.

Hi, Gideon!  Bye, Gideon!

Victoria really is not doing a good job at this whole evil baddie thing.

Definitely the best episode so far, which might not be saying much, but it at least had moments where it actually felt like Once Upon A Time, instead of a pale imitation. 

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

The time was completely whacked in this episode.

Belle and Rumple traveled the world for ten years.  Then they were settled down in a home until Gideon was eighteen.  Belle was aging at an alarming rate.  I knew she was dead before the end of the episode when I saw the strip of grey hair.

Then they go to the Edge of the Realm where Gideon visits but doesn't really age while away.  Belle does age and dies.

Then Rumple leaves and coincides with Henry meeting Cinderella which should be eighteen years after he left Storybrooke according to his back story.  But wasn't according to Regina/Hook/Emma ages.

If time was going in reverse while Rumple was in Edge of Realm, Gideon should have been younger again.

The time working differently in different realms sure is convenient, isn't it. You can give anyone the backstory you want without even thinking about continuity. 

1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

Yeah, Rumple is "pure of heart." They didn't say pure what however.

Count me on the Henry/Ivy train.

Did my ears deceive me or did I hear someone say something about a list of where she (Lucy) "may have went"? Grrrr, I hate that supposedly professional writers these days can't be bothered to care about the language with which they make their living.

I think when writing dialogue, writers try and make it sound like people realistically talk. This is not always proper English, so things like that don't bother me. 

[Proteus]

Hated it. They killed Belle after years of never writing for her. Hated this episode.

[Lady Calypso]

Also, how come Victoria's curse wore off on Alice and now she needs pills to keep erasing her memories? Because at least with Regina's curse, she chose a select few to remember for various, legitimate reasons and everyone else who wasn't under the curse just hadn't been swept up in it. This just makes Victoria's work look very sloppy, as if she half assed the curse with some very glaring holes. 

I'd like to think it'll be explained when Victoria eventually gets caught....but even if they do, I can't imagine the reasoning will be very good.

[Camera One]

What I love most about this show is all the useful romantic advice.  I've already written "Die for your man" into my notebook.

Seriously speaking, though, this was the first decent episode of the season.  I was struck by how much Belle was in the episode compared to Emma in her "curtain call".   

Despite my mixed feelings about Rumbelle, the two actors did a good job with most of the scenes.  Though I did not appreciate ANOTHER "Beauty and the Beast" theme music dance after I was able to repaint over that memory with the live action movie.  I was a little distracted by the wig with the weird streaks of white hair.  For a moment, I thought it was Morticia from The Adams Family at the dining room table instead of Belle.  As others have said, Belle seemed strangely disconnected from her own son and how her death would affect him.  I mean, seriously, they could have waited until Gideon was older before they moved to the Edge of Realms.  What was the hurry for Rumple to become mortal?  I was also annoyed with the multiple lines about Rumple being a "good man with a pure heart".  Give me a freak'in break.  The montage with the voiceover about how she was his prisoner and then fell in love and "came back, more than a few times", etc. was really off-putting and not heart-warming in the least.  And oh yeah, I'm sure Regina, Zelena, Snowing, Emma and Hook would put Gideon's birthday party on their calendar.  

In the present-day, Victoria won the award for worst acting in this one.  I actually didn't mind Jacinda as much.  Less screentime is good for her.  I agree that Ivy could potentially have more chemistry with Henry though I actually don't think Jacinda is a total write-off yet.  However, if they have Drizella murdering people left, right and centre in the flashbacks, count me out for that ship.   Henry wearing that purple jacket makes me think he's The Joker.  I actually found him a tad more likeable in this episode as well.

The actress playing Tilly/Alice is the strongest one among the new cast, though that's not saying much.  She was a perfect mix of unhinged and sane.  She actually reminds me of a female Will, and she has the same sort of energy.  

I also thought the costumed Disney characters were amusing, and there were a few good Easter egg lines like "quiet as a dormouse".

Interview with Emilie:

Quote

They’ve had quite a tumultuous relationship, so for them to be able to get to a place of such acceptance with each other and themselves, and with life, and this inner peace that has washed over them. They’ve been able to now show everyone maybe you can come to a point — whether it’s with someone else or with yourself, or with both — of just having that, having life be life, an acceptance of what it is, an acceptance of living, an acceptance of dying. 

As I was saying before, it’s really a big shift for them to be able to get to a place of, “We’re just going to live our life and,” in essence, “screw everything else. Let’s just be.”

The tumultous nature of their relationship is what made that scenario of "inner peace" and "acceptance" in this episode so unbelievable, and way too easy.  I guess it just takes time, eh?

Quote

What was your reaction to reading the script, or at least hearing about this Up-esque montage?
I had been briefed slightly on what the story was going to be. I’ve been reading these scripts for nearly seven years. I love reading them and always enjoy them, some more than others, but never had a reaction like this. I couldn’t stop crying. I challenged myself, like, “Okay, the second time I read it, [it’ll be easier], maybe I was just having an emotional day.” The second time I read it, I was supposed to go out to lunch afterwards. Nope, can’t do it. I called Bobby and said, “I can’t read this without crying,” he said, “I know, I’m the same way.” We’ve both had instances where our significant others were like, “Are you okay?” [Feigns crying] “Yup, just reading the script.”

Although I did find this episode better than the last few, I'm sorry but I was nowhere close to crying.  

Edited October 28, 2017 by Camera One

[jay741982]

4 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She mentioned an ex-girlfriend who had worked for Belfrey.

I took that as she had an ex female friend at first cause I've known heterosexual women who referred to their female friend as Girlfriend but yes what you said makes every bit of sense as well lol

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

I took that as she had an ex female friend at first cause I've known heterosexual women who referred to their female friend as Girlfriend but yes what you said makes every bit of sense as well lol

That's how I interpreted it too, but A&E confirmed it in an interview that's what they meant.

Quote

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: First off, this was definitely your take on Up, right?
EDWARD KITSIS: It’s definitely inspired by it. It really came from this place of the immortality. We said, “What if we did Up meets Benjamin Button with RumBelle?” What we really liked is at the end of last year, we wanted to feel like they lived a whole life. Yeah, that Up montage, very few things have inspired us like that.

How was it inspired by it?  Someone old died?  

Quote

Why did you guys decide to ultimately have Belle die? And is there any chance she could return in the future, considering the prophecy? 
ADAM HOROWITZ: We don’t look at this as killing Belle, in the sense of what we really wanted to do was preserve their happy ending from last year and show that they lived the ultimate happy life together.

So true, Adam.  When most people think "happy ending", they almost always think "they lived their life and died."

Quote

KITSIS: What it really comes down to is the reason we did this — it’s hard to say why we did this, but I can say in Rumple’s journey now we realize what he’s doing, he’s trying to get back to her and resist the darkness. Once again, he has to choose love over power to be with the person who was always there to guide him when that person is gone. That’s his struggle for the year. For us, we wanted to see Rumple’s battle. Also, it was like a man who spent hundreds and hundreds of years as an immortal and never wanting to age and get older, and he learned the lesson from Belle that life is only important because you only have one.

It's hard to say why we did this?  LOL.  It's hard to say why you do most things.  I'm really looking forward to Rumple resisting the darkness, since we've never seen it before.

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Regina and Monica (on Friends) were both dressed like Marilyn Monroe. 

I thought Regina looked more like Bea Arthur than Marilyn Monroe.