S04.E06: A Dark Knight: Hog Day Afternoon

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Gordon and Bullock are hot on a serial killer who has been assassinating cops and dressing his victims in the severed heads of pigs as his signature mark. Meanwhile, Sofia tries to win over Penguin, and Thompkins, Nygma and Grundy find themselves an unlikely home at Cherry's place.

Promo:

[SimoneS]

I admit it, the pig heads freaked me out. Gross. Is this is a character from the comics? Because he is scary. As soon as I saw the tie, I began to think that Peguin's bag man is Professor Pyg.

Oh Harvey, you broke my heart as well as Jim's.

Sophia has Peguin's snowed. Love it.

Ed is so annoying. Good that Lee is helping the less fortunate. 

I missed Bruce so I was glad to see him in the preview.

[HoodlumSheep]

Another good episode! Gotham's on a roll.

• I like this lee. She's so much better when she's not tied down with stupid romance drama. She's allowed to be her intelligent self here and it's refreshing.
• Poor Butch/Grundy :( i just want to wrap him in some blankets and give him a big hug. You do not deserve this. Ed is not your friend. At least lee tried to warn him. He's become a sympathetic character.
• Props to the guy who played Professor Pyg. Talk about creepy.
• Sofia continues to slay and Oswald continues to be a sucker.
• Zsasz!
• Good to have the gordlock antics back! This is what we should be getting
• Also, an episode where they let harvey remind the audience that he's actually a pretty smart cookie when it comes to the street smart cop stuff
• Oh harvey, :( i screamed so loud when pyg slit his throat. And then that reveal with Harvey being on Pengy's payroll. Broke my heart and jim's. Gordlock's managed to evade a hardcore breakup, but this and next episode might be it. :'(
• So, jim, you seem pretty cool with asking ozzy for help/info, etc. Despite being against his licensed crime...
• And i'm surprised pyg is a fan of jim's. Sure he's against the licensed crime stuff, but surely you know about all the other dirty deeds Jimbo has done???

Edited October 27, 2017 by HoodlumSheep

[WritinMan]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I admit it, the pig heads freaked me out. Gross. Is this is a character from the comics? Because he is scary. As soon as I saw the tie, I began to think that Peguin's bag man is Professor Pyg.

Yes, he is from the comics. And quite a disturbing character as I recall.

[tennisgurl]

My roommate walked in right as the pig guy was taunting Jim with a hot dog. She has never looked more confused...

[Chaos Theory]

Poor Nygma,  you know things have hit rock bottom when Lee Thompkins is laughing at you.  At least she took pity on him and agreed to help.  Bonus points for giving him blackmail lessons.   Lee, Nygma and Grundy may actually make a fun team.  

uhhhhhh  the rest......well Jim was as self righteous as ever.  Why isn't he IA?   Nothing against IA but besides the random murders and shady dealings with the underworld Jim might actually fit in there.  

No Babs sighting.  Booooooooo!!!!!!

Edited October 27, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Danielg342]

I would write a review, but I want to see what's going on with Bullock first. I'm not sure I like it.

I know I've wanted him to have things to do...but Harvey going evil just doesn't sit well with me.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Danielg342

[tennisgurl]

Not having Bruce or Alfred was weird, but we got lots of Harvey and Harvey/Jim scenes so that makes up for it. 

The pig man was super creepy. Kudos to the actor, who really came off as dangerously deranged and scary without being able to show any facial expressions, and behind a big scary pig mask. Very creepy atmosphere in this one, and I am darkly happy pig man got away. I am excited to have more of him as a reoccurring villain, even if its not long term. 

This is closer to the Lee I originally liked so much back in season 1. Sassy, competent, kind, but also kind of dark and open to the weirdness of Gotham. She, Grundy, and Ed are going to be an interesting combination. Poor Butch/Grundy. At least Lee is looking out for him. "Hi pretty lady" Also, Ed gets credit for drinking a green Riddler drink! 

Oh Harvey! It was so sweet how much Jim clearly loves his BFF and how desperate he was to save him, but also how heartbroken he was to realize Harv was in Penguins pocket. Granted, I can understand why Harv is doing what he is doing (his bosses are telling him to turn a blind eye, and he has always been somewhat corrupt) but it still hurts to see. Never break up guys! You need each other!

Edited October 27, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Lantern7]

Hey, another Grant Morrison villain! I don't think this Pyg was as "unique" as the canon version. He also doesn't have the animal rights schtick that his Beware The Batman counterpart had. Don't worry if you never saw that; I think two dozen people remember the CGI show. Their Alfred was a good intro to the guy we got here.

I feel bad for Harvey. I would've had him sob about how Jim made him a better cop and person, but he had to look the other way.

Oswald is still equal parts menacing and neurotic. Ed is sad. Grundy is sadder. I do like the insinuation that he's no longer human. You know, a team-up with Grundy and Ivy would make sense, though Grundy would be the smart one in that pairing.

Bruce is basically Alice in the middle of "Alice's Restaurant." "You remember Bruce, right? This show is about Bruce."

ETA: Does Gotham owe Marvel and/or Hayley Atwell a small royalty for Sofia's sweet red hat?

[scarynikki12]

Professor Pyg was creepy as hell. Can’t wait to see him again. 

Sofia continues to expertly play Pengy and I AM HERE FOR IT. 

I noticed Bruce wasn’t in the episode but he wouldn’t have fit so I’m fine with his absence. 

Lee opened her clinic! Give Wayne manor a call for funding. Bruce will want to help and surely Alfred still has the crush. I love Bruce’s relationship with Leslie in the comics and this would be a great way to put them back in the same orbit. I’m also loving the combo of Lee, Ed, and Grundy. Lots of fun potential there. 

[Kostgard]

Harvey! Show, you can't scare me like that. I was yelling at Jim to apply pressure on that wound and not just from a neck tie!

I don't know why Jim was so shocked that Harvey was on Oswald's payroll. I thought that since he was still going along with the licensing program that was a given. And I'm sad that it might lead to a rift between them since this episode proved that Jim is way better when he's with Harvey.

Though...not much smarter. Did like him figuring out the "blind" sax player, but also noticed that when Pyg had him duct taped to the chair, the tape was over his jacket sleeves. All Jim had to do was wriggle out of his jacket. But dummy Jim can't figure that out and drops himself down a storey onto a hard floor instead.

Lee is way more tolerable when she's not constantly whinging about Jim. And I'm glad that if she's gotta come back to Gotham, she's trying to do some good. The Ed/Grundy pairing continues to be amusing, though I feel sorry for Grundy. I love that Ed ordered a grasshopper, probably only because it's green (also, a fight club serves a fancy girly drink? I figured in a bar like that the only question is "How much rotgut do you want?"). That guy's commitment to a theme is admirable.

 Good start for Pyg, but I definitely need to see more. 

And Sofia...just...good god. ORPHANS? What, were there no kittens to rescue? No nuns to save from a burning school bus? She is laying it on super-thick but Oswald is so lonely and desperate for a friend that he's swallowing it all, hook, line and sinker. Sofia really struck at the right time (after Ed was really gone and not just frozen). Oswald was at a low point and it really shows. 

But I love the bust of a horse's head in Sofia's house. Well played, Gotham. Well played.

Zsasz, however, remains perfection. I love that he doesn't give a shit about phone messages, will just sit down and eat someone else's lunch, and I love how grossed out he was at all the orphans. I kinda want Zsasz to be the one to figure out Sofia's game. 

3 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

ETA: Does Gotham owe Marvel and/or Hayley Atwell a small royalty for Sofia's sweet red hat?

I'm enjoying Sofia, but she can't hold a candle to Peggy Carter, dammit! (Sorry, I'm still cheesed off about that show getting canceled. I want to be Peggy Carter when I grow up).

Edited October 27, 2017 by Kostgard

[Danielg342]

6 hours ago, Kostgard said:

And I'm sad that it might lead to a rift between them since this episode proved that Jim is way better when he's with Harvey.

That's what bothers me the most. If this was merely a spat- which is what this should be anyway- I could live with it.

A breakup? I'm sorry, but no...especially because that means Harvey will turn into some villain or just be killed because we know Jim ain't going anywhere.

The real problem is that this show just can't- or won't- develop characters and do nuance in any way. They turn everyone they don't know what to do with evil and use cheap tricks like peril or a breakup to add "drama" when they really can do better.

I was mad they messed up Oswald/Ed, but messing up Harvey's a deal-breaker.

[darkestboy]

What a creepy introduction for Pyg. The guy is scary enough in the comics and they certainly caught that on screen with the character as well.

The opera music, sing song voice and everything exudes creepiness about the guy.

Not too shocked about Bullock being in Oswald's pocket but will get annoyed by Gordon though, even if he is right be disappointed by Harvey.

Good scenes this week with Grundy, Nygma and Leslie. They do need to give Cherry something to do as she's a but blah so far but this group of characters is making for an interesting dynamic so far.

The Oswald/Sofia storyline is moving along nicely and I like that the latter seems to be steps ahead of Oswald every time. Zsasz's reaction to the orphanage was priceless, 7/10

[Kathemy]

Workmanlike episode. Good acting mostly. Synthetic Lee is synthetic. 

[thuganomics85]

Even with the pig mask on (eww), I recognized Michael Cerveris' (The Observer from Fringe) voice as Professor Pyg!  He did a pretty good job at making him creepy as hell!  Glad he escaped, which means he'll continue to be a thorn in the GCPD's side.

Oh, shit!  Jim and Bullock might be on a break now, due to Bullock confessing that he's on Oswald's payroll too.  Really, Jim shouldn't have been that surprised, because Bullock's always been willing to go there with the likes of Falcone and Fish in the past.  I love Bullock and everything, but he's always had a dirty side to him.  But I wonder how their partnership will change going forward.

Lee, Nygma, and Grundy are becoming a great trio.  I like that Lee clearly still has a dark edge to her, but she is still trying to do good with the clinic and feels guilt for her part in the Tech virus.  Dumb Nygma continues to be a hoot, and Grundy is strangely sympathetic for basically being an undead zombie who kills people.

Sofia continues to have Oswald wrap around her finger.

Zsasz asking the right questions like if the chat is a "chat chat" or a chat that requires the shovel!  And, yeah, the food would have gone to waste if he didn't eat it. Zsasz is the best! 

Now that I think about it, that one dirty cop could have inadvertently had a point about Jim being Internal Affairs.  I bet Jim would love that shit! 

[Kathemy]

By the way Sofia is just ridiculously pretty. It's almost disturbing.

[Snookums]

Ahhh, Zsasz, you are a voice of sanity: how I love you!

Well, honestly this week was full of both some nice surprises and some deeply wearying attempts to present very well established beats as new and shocking information. Also a good demonstration of how to handle this monster cast: half and half weekly! No Babs, Tabs, R'as, Bruce, Ivy, Selina or Alfred, and not wedging them in made the episode flow quite well.

Anyway, the good!

Quote

I like this lee. She's so much better when she's not tied down with stupid romance drama. She's allowed to be her intelligent self here and it's refreshing.

Agreed. I was shocked at how much I enjoyed Lee here, considering she's been the equivalent of itching powder every time I saw her last season. She's finally out from under the weight of JIM HATEZ  and the Tetch virus crap (but at least that was used to give her a perfectly workable reason for coming back to Gotham) and she's got a great thing going with Idiot Ed (Morena's comic timing is really crack) and Grundy, the sweet lump of swamp water. Please keep going this way, show.

Professor Pig is both disturbing and another fantastic casting choice--him running off waving the hot dog was the best thing I've ever seen on this show. Kind of nice to see deranged lunacy focused on something "real world" for once instead of just trying to take over/murder the entire city. 

Jim and Harvey locking the cop in his car was funny too; these two work so well together! 

Sophia's long con as Ozzy's dream girl/mom/Mary Poppins is really paying off. I guess they just kinda forgot about her and Jim's smoochathon? 

Okay, now the bad...

The plots for this show continue to disintegrate under the slightest pressure. For instance, let's look at Fight Club. Yeah, Grundy's unbeatable, and that's not good. Most particularly from Cherry's point of view: she runs bets on these matches, right? So why the hell is she so thrilled about a guy who not only cannot be bested but murders all his opponents? Who the hell is either going to fight him or bet against him? He's fine as a ringer but he's no long term cash cow.

Now, Lee's clinic. I guess she doesn't want Jim to know she's in town or something but why is this her only alternative? Is she so completely out of money (isn't she a rich widow?) that this is the only setup she can afford? And you don't have to personally hand out the drugs, Lee! That's what insurance is for! 

Jim Gordon, the dummy, turned it up to eleven with just about everything this week, from crashing himself onto a concrete floor to being shocked, shocked! that Harvey is on the take. Why? Harvey has been no better than he should be, ethics-wise, since Act One Scene One four seasons ago! He "understood" the entire mob structure of Falcone and Friends (where are those other mob families, by the way?) He dated Fish! He covered Jim's hypocritical ass more times than can be counted! He's been actively supporting (along with the rest of Gotham's civic structure, to be fair) the stupidly unworkable licensing system from its inception! What is so dramatically different now?

And also, let's chat about the whole bagmen/cops on the take thing; if every single aspect of Gotham's justice system is OPENLY going along with Penguin's licensing, who the hell is he even bribing???? There's no reason to pay off cops who are already totally complying with the scheme, which is not any way a secret from anybody! You can't have this idiot licensing thing AND the whole corruption angle at the same time--the two cancel each other out.

[Kostgard]

On 10/27/2017 at 10:54 PM, Snookums said:

Professor Pig is both disturbing and another fantastic casting choice--him running off waving the hot dog was the best thing I've ever seen on this show. Kind of nice to see deranged lunacy focused on something "real world" for once instead of just trying to take over/murder the entire city. 

Jim and Harvey locking the cop in his car was funny too; these two work so well together! 

Sophia's long con as Ozzy's dream girl/mom/Mary Poppins is really paying off. I guess they just kinda forgot about her and Jim's smoochathon? 

Agree on all three points. Pyg was great. Swinging the hot dog around, incorporating an oink into his laugh, the way he said "mon frère" with such a weird up tick in his voice that it almost sounded like a fart, and the little curly pig tail strap on the back of his apron. He is the sort of batshit insanity this show does well. 

Jim really is best when he's with Harvey, though man does he need to appreciate him. on rewatch the scene in the hospital really rubbed me the wrong way. If Jim were just disappointed in Harvey, that would be fine, but instead he was all up on his high horse. As pointed out, Jim kinda owes Harvey in this department. Dude, how many times has Harvey supported you when you were doing something illegal/unethical? Often without question and to his own detriment? Time to return some of the love, Jimbo.

And yes - they've been showing us how Sofia is playing Oswald, but they really need to show us more of Sofia/Jim. All we know for sure is they've definitely made out, probably donked each other a couple times at least (Crystal Reed said they actually filmed a sex scene that got cut), and Jim has no idea who he is dealing with, what with his, "If you don't tell me what your plans are, I'm gonna send you back home on the first train, young lady!" As if, Jim. As if. 

 

On 10/27/2017 at 10:54 PM, Snookums said:

The plots for this show continue to disintegrate under the slightest pressure. For instance, let's look at Fight Club. Yeah, Grundy's unbeatable, and that's not good. Most particularly from Cherry's point of view: she runs bets on these matches, right? So why the hell is she so thrilled about a guy who not only cannot be bested but murders all his opponents? Who the hell is either going to fight him or bet against him? He's fine as a ringer but he's no long term cash cow.

Now, Lee's clinic. I guess she doesn't want Jim to know she's in town or something but why is this her only alternative? Is she so completely out of money (isn't she a rich widow?) that this is the only setup she can afford? And you don't have to personally hand out the drugs, Lee! That's what insurance is for! 

Jim Gordon, the dummy, turned it up to eleven with just about everything this week, from crashing himself onto a concrete floor to being shocked, shocked! that Harvey is on the take. Why? Harvey has been no better than he should be, ethics-wise, since Act One Scene One four seasons ago! He "understood" the entire mob structure of Falcone and Friends (where are those other mob families, by the way?) He dated Fish! He covered Jim's hypocritical ass more times than can be counted! He's been actively supporting (along with the rest of Gotham's civic structure, to be fair) the stupidly unworkable licensing system from its inception! What is so dramatically different now?

And also, let's chat about the whole bagmen/cops on the take thing; if every single aspect of Gotham's justice system is OPENLY going along with Penguin's licensing, who the hell is he even bribing???? There's no reason to pay off cops who are already totally complying with the scheme, which is not any way a secret from anybody! You can't have this idiot licensing thing AND the whole corruption angle at the same time--the two cancel each other out.

Good point about Grundy, and I'm sure they will run into that problem (there's gotta be some sort of hiccup in the Lee/Ed deal. Either the money stops coming in so Lee threatens to stop helping or Ed gets frustrated when Lee can't cure him right away and threatens to walk). Grundy can't improvise on his own, so we'll probably have a situation where  Ed has to stay ringside and coach him through everything. Maybe coming up with their strategies for their fights will help unfreeze Ed's brain.

As for Lee's money, I assume she didn't take any of Mario's money so she'd have something else to be a martyr about last season. And she probably spent all of her own money moving back and forth from Gotham every time she got pissed off at Jim. 

The whole bribery thing made sense in the moment (Jim was publicly trying to shame the cops in front of the media to go straight, so Oswald countered with "Stay with me and I"ll triple your salary"), but not a whole lot of sense in the long term. It's sort of a problem this show has with not taking the time to actually develop stuff or explain it or think about it because they have so many characters to move around and they keep rushing the story forward. As another example, I've seen a lot of people complain that the Sofia thing with Oswald is moving along too fast as well, and she's accomplishing her task too easily. I think there is some merit to that argument, though I would argue the elements explaining that were established. In the first episode Oswald wondered how shutting people out was costing him, and then Sofia came in right after he lost Ed - not just having him around physically, but the clever Ed he knew and loved may be gone for good. Oswald's been outwardly successful, but emotionally he's probably at the lowest point he's ever been. He has no one to watch his back. Not really. He has no friends. Ed is gone and he pushed Ivy away. Zsasz is a good employee, but he's not a friend. They play off each other well, but Zsasz doesn't care about him. This is a job. And if Oswald lost power tomorrow Zsasz would just shrug all, "Okay" and he'd move on to the next job. This is probably the longest stretch he's gone without someone looking out for him in some fashion - he had his mother, then Butch to some extent (Butch was brainwashed, but he was far more supportive than Zsasz), then Ed, then his father, then Ed again, then Ivy. And he doesn't even have himself since he's not really listening to his emotions/gut (note he's been suspicious of Sofia at least twice now. He knows something ain't right) and he's not being true to himself. He was ripe for the picking. But this might only be clear to a dork like me who spends too much time thinking about this stuff. The show itself hasn't really developed it that much. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Kostgard

[Snookums]

Quote

"If you don't tell me what your plans are, I'm gonna send you back home on the first train, young lady!" As if, Jim. As if. 

Seriously. That loud rumbling you heard was the entire viewership rolling its collective eyeballs at that line. She's not six years old, Jimbo. You can't MAKE her do anything, much less pack her off to St. Criminala's School For Naughty Gangsters.

[Kathemy]

http://www.douxreviews.com/2017/10/gotham-hog-day-afternoon.html

Not the best review but wtf.

[Miss Dee]

We know if Selina and Bruce aren't in it, neither's your heart. :) (Or mine!)

[Kathemy]

And they aren't giving me back Baby Batcat either :'-(

[Kostgard]

I'm confident we'll get Baby Batcat back at some point this season (the scene of them on the roof in the premiere was too good to be for nothing). Bruce just has to go douchebag for a while (he can't do it in front of Selina. Her eyes would roll right out of her head). And Selina has to...do whatever it is she's been doing off-screen.

[DR14]

I think we'll get them back eventually, I just hope the payoff of them being apart all this time was worth it.

You can count on more than one hand the number of episodes Selina hasn't been in since her mom's arc.  And she really didn't have much in the way of a character arc in the episodes she was in for the rest of S3.  So her development is still up in the air for me.

I feel this season in particular should be a sort of "coming of age" season for both those characters.  I at least feel that they have achieved that with Bruce's character.

Edited October 30, 2017 by DR14

[Danielg342]

18 minutes ago, DR14 said:

I at least feel that they have achieved that with Bruce's character.

I feel like this season should be the one where the show transitions from one centering around Gordon to one centering around Bruce. David Mazouz will be 18 in February 2019 (halfway through S5), and considering this series is about Batman's origins, eventually Gordon would have to give way to Bruce at some point.

[DR14]

5 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I feel like this season should be the one where the show transitions from one centering around Gordon to one centering around Bruce. David Mazouz will be 18 in February 2019 (halfway through S5), and considering this series is about Batman's origins, eventually Gordon would have to give way to Bruce at some point.

Agreed.  Gordon being the center focus stopped making since when he shot Theo in the head and his "Boy Scout Cop" arc ended.

Edited October 30, 2017 by DR14

[Kathemy]

44 minutes ago, DR14 said:

I think we'll get them back eventually, I just hope the payoff of them being apart all this time was worth it.

Wouldn't be too sure. I mean, next episode we'll have

Spoiler

Bruce basically boning that new girl right on the dance floor.

I guess the return to Selina, if we get one, will be one little peck on the cheek.

Sorry for being a negative Nancy ;-)

Edited October 30, 2017 by Kathemy

[DR14]

25 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

Spoiler comment

Yeah, I saw that.  I don't really know how much mileage the show can get out of that though.  Bruce is vulnerable right now, so I think the angle can make since for a time.

Edited October 30, 2017 by DR14

[Kathemy]

Crap I'm sorry that was a spoiler shouldn't have posted it in this thread and dunno how to edit it to spoiler.

As for Talia well it would be a rehash of the Silver line.

[Kathemy]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Is the 

  Hide contents

new girl confirmed as Talia? Considering who she'll be the mother of, that's a pretty significant canon character to introduce this early in Bruce's life. 

No, she absolutely isn't. Doesn't stop people speculating however especially since she's of Lebanese descent.

[DR14]

I will legit scream if the show throws Jim and Lee back at us but not Bruce and Selina.

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, DR14 said:

Yeah, I saw that.  I don't really know how much mileage the show can get out of that though.  Bruce is vulnerable right now, so I think the angle can make since for a time.

Yeah - this show loves to draw parallels between characters. Like Oswald, Bruce is at an emotional low point now and it's making him vulnerable and stupid. It will be temporary (for both - one will go back to heroing and one will go back to murder and mayhem). I can see this going on with Bruce for, like, a 3-4 episode arc. Then he'll pull himself out of it (and learn how much of it to keep for his "billionaire brat" routine). I would say they are doing this with Jim too, but I always find kinda stupid and vulnerable due to being a dummy. 

7 minutes ago, DR14 said:

I will legit scream if the show throws Jim and Lee back at us but not Bruce and Selina.

I'm sure we'll get both. I  just hope that only one will suck (the one that's basically guaranteed to suck).

[Kathemy]

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

Like Oswald, Bruce is at an emotional low point now and it's making him vulnerable and stupid. It will be temporary (for both - one will go back to heroing and one will go back to murder and mayhem). I can see this going on with Bruce for, like, a 3-4 episode arc. Then he'll pull himself out of it (and learn how much of it to keep for his "billionaire brat" routine). [...]

I'm sure we'll get both. I  just hope that only one will suck (the one that's basically guaranteed to suck).

Batcat never sucks when it's actually happening. It's just how the writers seem hellbent on not allowing them even one moment of happiness before pulling them apart in the most heartbreaking fashion.

I actually understand both Camren and David's objections to that relationship in a fashion, by only going by what's shown on screen. And that's despite barebone Gotham Batcat being an absolutely beautiful romance. Of course the public dissing of the romance is poor PR, though, but maybe that's the way the writers want it.

This is the key for successful ships - and mind you, I'm not embarrassed to call myself a shipper. In order to make the audience invest, you must show what they could have that's worth fighting for. You need to show happiness so people understand why they bother trying to get back together. This is a teen romance, so for obvious reasons they can't just take the shortcut of awesome graphic sex; they need to tell a heartfelt story. Dancing the Masochist Tango 24/7 makes people give up.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Kathemy
Added content. Silly site claiming "edited" if it's within the first 5 minutes...

[DR14]

I think it's funny that at a time the adult versions of the characters are engaged in comic canon is the time the show is most hostile towards the pairing.

[Kathemy]

16 minutes ago, DR14 said:

I think it's funny that at a time the adult versions of the characters are engaged in comic canon is the time the show is most hostile towards the pairing.

It's extremely weird. Gotham's sort of been the go-to place for Batcatters over the last years, at least if you're not totally stuck up about shippin two teenagers. How they aren't capitalizing on the comics buzz right now is beyond me. 

[Kostgard]

I don't see the show as hostile to the pairing (though I'm not necessarily a shipper - I enjoy them together, but it's not something I'm actively rooting for one way or another - so I may not be as sensitive to it). I was wondering if they were going to leave them in the same state they were at the end of season three when Bruce told Selina off. But he apologized for that, and they had a pretty flirty encounter (the most "adult" flirty they've ever been, and not just a couple of cute kids). Then the show just kinda...stuck them on the back burner. I would be more worried about them if they were still pissed off at each other, but they seem to have moved past that before they got benched. 

But I really suspect we'll get development with them around the mid-season point that will carry over in the the second half. It seems a lot of the stuff they are establishing now is coming to a head around mid-season. For example (spoilered just in case, but not too spoilery):

Ivy is supposed to return in episode 12 (which should involve Selina), Sofia's storyline takes a big turn in episode 11, and Pyg is supposed to be around for five episodes, I think, which will take him up to about episode 11 or so. And finally I think something is supposed to happen between Jim and Harvey by this point as well.

So I think after all this stuff explodes, there will be more room on the playing field and Baby Batcat will be able to come back into play.

I'm actually kinda wondering if Selina will figure out that Bruce is a vigilante (though I think it will be a situation where she'll keep the secret - even from him. So he'll be unaware that Selina knows what he's up to).

[jhlipton]

On 10/26/2017 at 6:23 PM, Chaos Theory said:

At least she took pity on him and agreed to help.

I don't think she took pity on him as much as on his money.

On 10/26/2017 at 6:34 PM, Danielg342 said:

Harvey going evil just doesn't sit well with me.

Harvey wasn't doing anything while on Penguin's payroll that he wasn't obliged to do anyway.  Pulling more money out of the licensing scam seems like a Good Thing to me.  Of course, Jim has his own extremely hypocritical morals, so he sees it differently.

[Kathemy]

3 hours ago, Kostgard said:

But he apologized for that, and they had a pretty flirty encounter (the most "adult" flirty they've ever been, and not just a couple of cute kids). Then the show just kinda...stuck them on the back burner. I would be more worried about them if they were still pissed off at each other, but they seem to have moved past that before they got benched. 

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Ivy is supposed to return in episode 12 (which should involve Selina), Sofia's storyline takes a big turn in episode 11, and Pyg is supposed to be around for five episodes, I think, which will take him up to about episode 11 or so. And finally I think something is supposed to happen between Jim and Harvey by this point as well.

 

I'm unsure if you have forgotten it but they did have the scene where Selina wanted the knife and Bruce told her she should leave. The way the actors talked about that scene, it was clear this was supposed to be the breaking point, and the two are no longer even on friendly terms.

[Kostgard]

6 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I'm unsure if you have forgotten it but they did have the scene where Selina wanted the knife and Bruce told her she should leave. The way the actors talked about that scene, it was clear this was supposed to be the breaking point, and the two are no longer even on friendly terms.

You’re right - I had forgotten the “Why are you sitting around in the dark like a weirdo” scene. I hadn’t seen the interviews with DM or CB where they talk about this, so I didn’t watch the scene through that filter. But the scene didn’t strike me as having any sense finality around it. Selina was all, “Hey, help a girl out and hand over the knife” and Bruce responded with, “Yeah, not gonna do that. You should go” and then Selina left without much more fuss. Obviously not happy with each other, but I didn’t watch that scene and think “Oh, no! This is over!”

I suppose it would have more impact if we had seen Selina since then, but we haven’t. We didn’t get to see Barbara’s reaction when she failed to get the knife again and in the meantime, things have gone down between Bruce and Ra’s, so we don’t really feel the stakes for Selina. And I know Bruce was stressing about Ra’s during that scene, so I didn’t see it as any true indication of his regard for Selina. It is admittedly not the most hopeful note to end on before Selina goes MIA for three episodes, but I never got the feeling they were in big trouble afterwards. Not like I did after the hospital scene last season (though, again, I wasn’t watching with the actors' comments in mind). It still feels to me they’ve just been temporarily sidelined. And I just feel like Selina’s not really going to be into Barbara’s shit for much longer and after Bruce messes around with gals who aren’t Selina, that will help him put his feelings for her into focus. I don’t think they will run into each other’s arms next time they see each other, but the feeling I still get from them is, “to be continued...”

Edited October 30, 2017 by Kostgard

[Kathemy]

12 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I don’t think they will run into each other’s arms next time they see each other, but the feeling I still get from them is, “to be continued...”

... "after the series is cancelled."

[Ailianna]

On 10/27/2017 at 0:19 AM, Kostgard said:

noticed that when Pyg had him duct taped to the chair, the tape was over his jacket sleeves. All Jim had to do was wriggle out of his jacket. But dummy Jim can't figure that out and drops himself down a storey onto a hard floor instead.

I don't know if you've ever tried to get out of a suit jacket while sitting in a car seat, for example, but I have and it's hard, and takes some experience, because of how suit jackets are structured.  And that's when you have your arms fee and it's only along the back that the jacket is restricted.  Now imagine you can't move your back around, you can't move your arms around, and you still have the seaming and shoulder pads and structure of a suit jacket to try to get out of.  It's much more difficult than you apparently think.  That didn't bother me at all, but again, I've had to get out of suit jackets in a car seat and fought that structure.

[John Potts]

Jim, your righteous anger (or at least, disappointment) with Harvey for his dealings with Penguin would be more justifiable if your first act on learning of a cop's murder was to go to Penguin for what he knew about it! It's not as if he thought Penguin was guilty because it was Oswald's men who were killed. The fact that Harvey's taking bribes just means that, unlike you, he's profiting from his corruption. Sounds like Harvey is simply being more honest & realistic about his role. It would be more interesting if Jim went along with it, only to realise Mr Pyg was going too far.

Victor had a really good week. Loved that he checked whether Oswald wanted a "Chat Chat" or a "Chat with shovels" (always best to be sure)! And he's a firm believer in "Waste not, want not", chowing down on Sofia's lunch because she'd cancelled.

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:49 AM, Kostgard said:

they've been showing us how Sofia is playing Oswald, but they really need to show us more of Sofia/Jim... Jim has no idea who he is dealing with, what with his, "If you don't tell me what your plans are, I'm gonna send you back home on the first train, young lady!" As if, Jim. As if.

As for Penguin... boy are you getting played. Not at all happy with how Gordon is complaining that Sofia is plotting against Penguin when that's exactly what he wanted her dad to do. As for "sending her home"(!) - Jim, she's not your daughter (or even your wife, though that would be more problematic) she can do what she likes. You can arrest her if you think she's up to something illegal (which she is!) but his tone was completely paternalistic.

On ‎28‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 6:54 AM, Snookums said:

let's look at Fight Club. Yeah, Grundy's unbeatable, and that's not good. Most particularly from Cherry's point of view: she runs bets on these matches, right? So why the hell is she so thrilled about a guy who not only cannot be bested but murders all his opponents?

I know! Good luck getting any more challengers when he's taken on two giants and killed them. I guess there might still be idiots who think they can challenge Grundy, but anyone with half a brain isn't going to fight him.

[Joe Hellandback]

1. God, Professor Pyg is truly repellent! I thought Zsaz and Anubis were creepy but he takes the biscuit! I thought he might be Alexander Siddig given his name in the titles but no. 

2. No Tabby, Selina, Bruce, Alfred, Ivy, Lucius, Barbara? Let's see more of them. 

3. Another great Penguin/Zsaz ep, Sophia is beginning to remind me of Gay Byrne's character in Miller's Crossing and Zsaz of The Dane.  

4. So, Lee hasn't just ditched her morality to become a rocker chick, she still cares. I really like the whole Beauty and the Beast vibe between her and Butch/Grundy. 

5. Jim and Harvey have the showdown we always knew would come, I wonder where Harvey's debts come from?

[Camera One]

I found this episode mostly boring.  

I don't buy Harvey being on Penguin's payroll.  Maybe it could have worked if we had seen Harvey being in big financial trouble before this episode, but the way it's set up, it doesn't work.

There were some amusing moments with Zsasz, and Ed not being able to formulate words or even a coherent plan.