S01.E05: Choose Your Pain

[Colorado David]

Enjoyed the episode. Pretty sure Lady Klingon Captain will be recurring villain. The Klingons inflicting pain was a bit brutal to watch, I have a thing about seeing someone booted in the face - OUCH.

They released spore-kitty to be free, awww.....some heart after all there Starfleet.  Like that Saru has turned the corner on Michael.

I get the feeling engineer might have repercussions from using the spore drive in later episodes.  And he's gay, awesome - inclusion and equality is always a positive. I wonder if we'll get any cross-species relationships.

[Unusual Suspect]

So I'm glad to see more of the rest of the crew. Glad that the other bridge officers now have names. The show continues to open up, and I'm glad.

And yes, I agree with the theory about Ash ...

Spoiler

that he is totally Voq or some other Klingon agent. Which is a shame, I guess. 'Cause I do like him, and I hope he's not.

[2727]

Lorca, Lorca, Lorca. The guy kills everyone on his old ship -- except himself! -- in order to spare them capture and torture. And is then given his command back. Why not. It's isn't like Starfleet hands out life sentences for attempted mutiny or anything.

[tpel]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I also kind of love that while everyone else on the Discovery were bickering, Lorca just ran off and saved himself. Dude really is hard core. 

I loved that, too. He may not be a nice guy, but he is believable as a badass. The moment the klingon tractor beam snagged the shuttle, he was out of his seat and at the weapons locker, getting a big gun for himself and one for the security officer. A few times in the episode, we saw him shift to a fighting stance, though he only actually threw a punch when it would be strategically useful. There's just something about him that screams "ready for action". From the previews, I thought that him being tortured would be a big part of the episode, perhaps as a way to generate sympathy for an otherwise somewhat unlikable character. It wasn't, and I'm glad it wasn't. The klingon shined light in his eyes, and yeah it hurt, but then he went on to take care of business!

My favorite line of the episode was right after the light-torture scene, when Lorca is brought back to the cell and immediately goes after Mudd, slamming him against the wall and grabbing his "bug". Mudd pleads, "Use your words!" I guess it was the delivery, but that cracked me up :-)

Edited October 16, 2017 by tpel

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Ely said:

I've heard Garrett Wang say that during Voyager times TPTB specifically told the actors with human characters to tone it down and be as non-human as possible, which is just bizarre.

I've heard that in some iterations of Trek (especially the early TNG era) the writers and the actors were basically told that, since Federation humans were all perfect and lived in a perfect society, they could never have any real conflict among each other, or any real "negative" emotional responses or flaws. This was, obviously, a huge pain for actor sand writers, who are trying to creative three dementinal characters and dramatic situations, and a big part of drama, is character growth and conflict, Hard to do that when everyone is supposed to be totally absent of flaws (or even emotions like anger or sadness) and get along perfectly with each other. Hence why this has been phased out of more and more Trek over the years, and why, on my opinion, the best Treks are the Treks that allow its characters to have real emotions and conflicts. This show definitely has those!

[Helena Dax]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I've heard that in some iterations of Trek (especially the early TNG era) the writers and the actors were basically told that, since Federation humans were all perfect and lived in a perfect society, they could never have any real conflict among each other, or any real "negative" emotional responses or flaws. This was, obviously, a huge pain for actor sand writers, who are trying to creative three dementinal characters and dramatic situations, and a big part of drama, is character growth and conflict, Hard to do that when everyone is supposed to be totally absent of flaws (or even emotions like anger or sadness) and get along perfectly with each other. Hence why this has been phased out of more and more Trek over the years, and why, on my opinion, the best Treks are the Treks that allow its characters to have real emotions and conflicts. This show definitely has those!

I've never understood that, considering that one of the best parts of TOS are the (sometimes quite nasty)  arguments between Spock and McCoy. And the Trio wasn't without flaws. Even Kirk was short-tempered sometimes and made some mistakes. And I don't mean mistakes like "I trusted these aliens and it turns out they're dangerous", but "I'm going to assume the Gorn wants to invade us" or his "wait, am I complaining because the Organians prevented a war against the Klingon Empire?". 

I never thought people in the Federation were perfect, just that they were better. More open-minded and living in a world where curiosity, knowledge and generosity is encouraged and rewarded. There are still scoundrels like Mudd, and criminals, and prejudices -ask Spock-, but most people feel proud of being civilised. 

The fact that there were people willing to fight for Ripper -Michael, Stamet, the doctor etc- seems to imply that this is still our Federation. Lorca is cleary a "the end justifies the means" guy, but that doesn't mean the show thinks he's right. In fact, we know this idea won't work in the long term and I'm sure the show will give an answer to that. Of course, the main reason is probably what happened at the end of the episode. I don't believe it's Mirror Universe-related, but messing with the parallel universes is never a good idea.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Helena Dax
Grammar

[CanadaPhil]

I am going to have to call complete BS on the Ash "fan theory" with the actor who plays Voq being a "made up person".

He was at the Canadian 2017 Fan Expo in Toronto just over 1 month ago... was on discussion panels with the ENTIRE cast and can be seen in at least 1 live interview that occurred on the InnerSpace show (its on the Canadian network where STD airs).

The dude is not only REAL, but you instantly know its the guy playing Voq as he has a distinctive face and eyes!! It was clearly him... Not Shazad Latif who plays Ash.

I'm not saying Ash is a plant of some kind as he very well may be... But Voq's real life persona was at Fan Expo in Toronto.

 

PS.. and an fyi..

For those who were not aware, STD is actually shot in Toronto, so we are going to be seeing a lot of character actors familiar to Canadian co-productions along with many NEW Canadian bit players. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[starri]

11 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

The actress playing L'Rell is not listed by IMDB in the credits for this episode, but of course the site is unreliable at times, especially right after broadcast until someone edits the listing.

Mary Chieffo was in the end credits.

One of the other things I really liked about Paul and Hugh (Pugh?  Stalber?) is that they actually acted like professionals around each other.  Some very mild flirting while Paul was in sickbay getting his nose fixed, Hugh's aside to Michael that if she got Paul to listen to her, to tell him how, but mostly just two adults doing their jobs.  What a concept.

"One tends to worry when they're doomed to love a brilliant but reckless maniac who's willing to risk his life for glory."  Awwww...

And the lack of the usual suspects rending their garments about how they can never let their children watch Trek again because a gay couple in matching pjs were brushing their teeth at the same time was incredibly refreshing.  And sadly, a bit surprising.

Also, I want a pair of those.

Originally, Ripper was going to be a member of the crew, named Ephraim, after the scientist who actually discovered tardigrades.  He would have been the actual chief engineer and Paul's boss, but it was too expensive.

ETA:  Admiral Cornwell and Lorca totally used to bang, right?

Edited October 17, 2017 by starri

[Frozendiva]

Discovery airs at 6 pm my time (Space airs shows at Eastern time). I didn't watch it til today. Surprised at the F-bomb, especially when it is not even prime time!

The best and most interesting episode so far.

Smiled at the Harry Mudd character, the mention of 'Stella', and the Tribble.

Nice that Lorca managed to save himself.

Letting the Tardigrade go was a good idea. Let it come back if it wants to.

New guy is still a bit dubious - is he on the up-and-up or will he be an undercover Klingon agent?

[Starchild]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Oh, and...Mirror Universe?!?!

It seems unlikely that the Mirror Universe was triggered only 10 years before we saw it in TOS. Could the Federation have truly have become that different in only a decade?

[Biggie B]

I didn't know that the Klingon who tortured Lorca was L'Rell until reading this thread. An episode or two ago,  I'd asked here if L'Rell was female but never got a response. I guess I know now! But she was so different - in  prior episodes, she seemed so meek and subservient. No so here!

I must have missed an early scene or scenes. What happened between the scene in which Lorca was having a discussion with the Admiral (when she entered the room and inadvertently turned on the lights, to Lorca's discomfort) and the scene in which Lorca was captured and the other person killed?

This is the first episode that I liked Stamets. He was great. I really like his pairing with the doctor, they are very good together, even though they certainly have very different personalities. I'm afraid for their relationship, though - that whole mirror thing is scary.

So glad that Ripper was able to be free, poor thing.

I also liked Tilly a lot more than I have. She may be a bit quirky and/or socially awkward but everything she says is really quite correct and logical. I totally loved her excitement and commitment. 

I find Saru very whiny and annoying but I give him credit for realizing his shortcomings and trying to deal with them. He really had a huge chip on his shoulder about his lost opportunity but I'm glad he told Michael about it. I was dismayed that he was so ruthless towards Ripper but I get where that was coming from, and he sort of made up for it. I hope that receiving the telescope marks a positive turning point in his relationship with Michael, and that he now feels more confident and secure.

 

Quote

I can’t decide if Michael is asexual or just emulating a Vulcan. So far she has expressed no interest at all in anybody romantically.

After being yanked off her prison transport and suddenly being put to work on a weird, mysterious ship with a crew who pretty much hates her, the last thing she could possibly be thinking about is finding a lover!

Edited October 17, 2017 by Biggie B

[CanadaPhil]

Since some were giving out their speculation theories re: Voq/ L'Rell, here is another "out there" theory.... 

The "sacrificing everything" line made by L'Rell to Voq the last time we saw him was referring to having him undergo AUGMENT genome treatment (Enterprise fans will recall that plot line)... Remember that her clan is known as the "deceivers"!

Therefore, the parting line about "after all that we have been through" during the escape has absolutely nothing to do with rape, but meaning everything to do with what she and VOQ have been through. 

Ash/VOQ raging on her may have nothing to do with what is assumed, but more to with Ash/VOQ raging on her because he is full of regrets and pissed off at what he has been turned into??

So that's another "out there" theory.

I can't recall... did the Klingon Augments register as completely human at some point or would any normal med scan still show their supressed Klingon traits?.... anyone... anyone... Beuller??

;)

Edited October 17, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, Starchild said:

It seems unlikely that the Mirror Universe was triggered only 10 years before we saw it in TOS. Could the Federation have truly have become that different in only a decade?

Nope.  The Mirror Universe goes WAY back before that -- and it was never actually "triggered," according to ST:ENT.  It's simply always existed alongside "our" universe. See the two-part ENT episode "Through a Mirror, Darkly."

Edited October 17, 2017 by legaleagle53

[tpel]

OK, assuming that the klingon woman is L'Rell, here is another twist on CanadaPhil's theory: maybe Ash was telling the truth and is not a genetically augmented Voq. But L'Rell's purpose in raping him was to obtain human genetic material to combine with her own (let's say she is a descendant of Augment klingons) to produce embryos she can experiment on with the goal of reviving the positive parts of the Augment treatment (added strength, intelligence) without the negative ones. Once perfected, she could apply this treatment to Voq, who would thus "loose everything" but become a formidable leader. Still not sure this fits with the timeline . . .

[CanadaPhil]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Nope.  The Mirror Universe goes WAY back before that -- and it was never actually "triggered," according to ST:ENT.  It's simply always existed alongside "our" universe. See the two-part ENT episode "Through a Mirror, Darkly."

Those were two fantastic episodes for that series and two of my all time fav. Trek episodes!

[paigow]

Lorca killed everyone he shot at except Captain Rapist - was that intentional? How did he miss by that much at unobstructed close range? Why not shoot her again? 

[paigow]

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Nope.  The Mirror Universe goes WAY back before that -- and it was never actually "triggered," according to ST:ENT.  It's simply always existed alongside "our" universe. See the two-part ENT episode "Through a Mirror, Darkly."

But they were temporally out of sync...The Defiant that Kirk was trapped on ended up in the Archer Mirror Universe - allowing them access to technology from the future....

[legaleagle53]

7 minutes ago, paigow said:

But they were temporally out of sync...The Defiant that Kirk was trapped on ended up in the Archer Mirror Universe - allowing them access to technology from the future....

So how did Kirk, Scotty, McCoy, and Uhura end up in the Mirror Universe of their own time and not 100 years earlier, if the universes were always temporally out of sync? Or any of the DS9 crew, who encountered the Mirror Universe almost 100 years after Kirk's time?

The universes were never temporally out of sync.  That area of Tholian space was simply so unstable that it warped time as well as space, which is what landed the 23rd-Century Defiant in the Mirror Universe of the 22nd Century.

Edited October 18, 2017 by legaleagle53

[starri]

And indeed, if the Prime-Universe Defiant had so much more advanced tech than the MU NX-01, why wasn't the ISS Enterprise more advanced as well?  They had a hundred years to invent new stuff based on it.

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, starri said:

And indeed, if the Prime-Universe Defiant had so much more advanced tech than the MU NX-01, why wasn't the ISS Enterprise more advanced as well?  They had a hundred years to invent new stuff based on it.

Blame it on Berman & Braga.... The original Tholian episode did not specifically mention the Mirror Universe.  If ENT is canon, then there was some kind of technology / temporal gap in the Mirror Universe evolution.  I would prefer to ignore prequel speculation / plot recycling from the future...

[starri]

I think you just broke my brain.

[The Kings Foot]

On 16/10/2017 at 2:27 PM, tpel said:

When I saw a klingon female, L'Rell came to mind. But the more I saw of her, the less I thought it was her. She looks different (could just be makeup or lighting though) and sounds different (then again, she was speaking English). More compellingly, there is the time issue: Ash has been there 7 months, and his longevity is due to her interest in him, which implies that his rapist has been there for at least much of that time. L'Rell has been occupied elsewhere. Finally, L'Rell strikes me as fairly smart. This klingon woman, not so much. Despite having him at her mercy, Lorca owned her in their conversation.

Or Ash could have been lying 

[MissLucas]

I checked a lot of pics and it seems really like it was L'Rell* - which means she managed to commandeer a prison ship complete with crew and prisoners within a month. It could also mean Ash is lying and a plant. Which I find disappointing. The timeline is definitely wonky. Guess we'll have to wait if/when the show returns to Voq and his plot.

*Unless she's got a twin sister - who knows with these Klingons. It was a bit weird that she was always referred to as 'Captain' only and never given a name.

Edited October 18, 2017 by MissLucas

[aemom]

On 10/16/2017 at 9:28 PM, starri said:

Mary Chieffo was in the end credits.

Could that be simply because she was in the Previouslies?  I don't know what the SAG rules are for credit in shows.

[2727]

The after show confirmed that it was L'Rell. Bad makeup* or lighting or something that so many viewers didn't recognize her.

I hope we eventually learn if Stamets and Culber are married or what. I always wonder what relationships and sexual mores might be like so far in the future, but Trek usually doesn't go there (except for Risa.)

 

* For Face Off viewers, Glenn Hetrick is the department head for makeup/prosthetics. Heh.

[aemom]

5 minutes ago, 2727 said:

The after show confirmed that it was L'Rell. Bad makeup* or lighting or something that so many viewers didn't recognize her.

That's surprising.  Also surprising considering that Ash said that he's been there 7 months, which doesn't fit with the timeline that we know, unless as another poster suggested, he's lying.  I still think there's something off with Ash, so I'm curious to see how this all plays out.

[CanadaPhil]

12 hours ago, paigow said:

Lorca killed everyone he shot at except Captain Rapist - was that intentional? How did he miss by that much at unobstructed close range?

Who knows? 

Why do all those morbidly obese cops who achieve internet infamy only land two or three of 15 rounds after mag dumping into someone's back with straight on 5 yard shots?

[CanadaPhil]

On 2017-10-18 at 0:17 AM, The Kings Foot said:

Or Ash could have been lying 

That whole "7 month" thing just sounds bogus and Lorca rightly confronted Ash on that point.

It really doesn't make sense that the Klingons would have returned at any point following the battle to retrieve "prisoners" and yet just leave the gargantuan Cloaking Battle Cruiser which initiated the conflict to begin with just floating derelict in Space??

And.... the Federation was in effective control of the battlefield following the confrontation!!.. all the other houses had departed and only T'Koover'Gomer "The Regrettable"'s Death Barge remained and Shenzou had effectively crippled it! 

The Federation fleet was NOT wiped out. They still had several vessels remaining (essentially intact).... the post battle details don't seem to make any sense at all on the surface. 

If anything, the Federation should have taken that vessel as  a "war prise", imprisoned the whole Klingon crew and use all of that as some means to sue for some kind of armistice/ treaty from a bargaining position of strength.

I am liking this show, but the bizzare details surrounding the battle are my only real gripe so far.... and I won't even get into the absurdity of abandoning the Shenzou in their OWN territory with all of its Star Fleet files and database records intact for the taking!??.. That just gets lumped in with all of the above. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[Florinaldo]

9 hours ago, 2727 said:

The after show confirmed that it was L'Rell. Bad makeup* or lighting or something that so many viewers didn't recognize her.

I still think that the problem lies mainly with the make-up; when you cannot be sure if you are seeing the same character and actor, there is something very wrong.

In the old days of ST, the three main Klingon characters (Kang, Koloth and Kor) were recognizable as individuals and the actor's performance was allowed to come through the (admittedly rather light) make-up. You still could identify the same three characters (and the other Klingon characters) when they came back in their post-Augment phase with the cranial ridges restored. If Colicos, Campbell or Ansara had been fitted with the Discovery version's prosthetics, we might have had some difficulty in distinguising one from the other.

[that one guy]

Spoiler

On 10/15/2017 at 8:18 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

How did the Klingons even learn Lorca's name -- didn't the Discovery destroy all the Klingon ships at Corvan 2 ?  So who was left to phone home to the Klingons ?
 

Spoiler

They have spies everywhere?

 

Spoiler

On 10/16/2017 at 4:41 PM, marinw said:

  Hide contents

Maybe Ash is a Klingon Agent who is one of those Klingons with Human DNA (It’s complicated)

 I'd be disappointed at this point if someone didn't turn out to be secretly a Cylon Klingon. Having human-looking secret Klingons would diffuse criticism from fans who want to know why Klingons don't look the same as on TOS which is only 10 years away at this point, it would be creepy and paranoid and cool, and it would integrate some Klingon characters into the main cast, instead of having the be in totally different scenes speaking a different language. Also - how else do you explain what we've seen? Tyler wasn't on that ship for 7 months, no one was. Until last week, L'Rell (sp?) was stuck on the sarcophagus ship with Voq. She's only been in command of the ship with Mudd and Tyler on it for a couple, three weeks max. Whatever the ship's mission is, it just got underway. So the story that Tyler was captured at the Binary and has been held on this ship ever since is just totally fabricated. If he's not a Klingon, why does he state a backstory that's obviously false? For that matter, Mudd's hiding stuff too. Is he in on it? Since last episode, L'Rell and Voq traveled back to L'Rell's clan, and she acquired a ship, a crew, and a Mudd. The whole thing has to be a setup. They know who Lorca is, have a good idea what the ship can do. They knew they'd be tracked, they knew there would be a rescue attempt, the whole prison ship thing was staged. He was supposed to get away. Maybe he's Voq, but definitely Tyler's a Klingon or Klingon intelligence asset sent to infiltrate the Discovery and learn the secret of the Spore Drive. Of that, I have no doubt whatsoever. If he's not a spy, they missed the boat on a huge opportunity to tell an intriguing story, and I'm really confused about what kind of story they're trying to tell.

[jsbt]

Tyler is absolutely Voq. The minute L'Rell mentioned her house being the deceivers and how Voq would need to lose "everything" I knew what it meant. The ultimate irony: The racially pure Klingon bigot becomes human and most likely

 

fucks a human Starfleet officer.

 I wonder if this was part of Fuller's original concept. Knowing his fascination with transformation in his past work I would not be surprised. (The spore drive/network is also almost certainly all him - he was fascinated by plants in Hannibal, etc.)

I don't know why people are still debating - that was 100% L'Rell. The question is if Tyler knows he is Voq, or if he is now a sleeper agent.

I still don't care about the OG Harry Mudd, but Rainn Wilson was great.

Until this week's credits I had no idea the admiral was not Caroline Dhavernas from Hannibal and Wonderfalls. Jayne Brook's gained a lot of character as she's gotten older.

Edited October 20, 2017 by jsbt

[paigow]

In Trouble With Tribbles - 10 years from "now" - "Arne Darvin" was a deep cover Klingon spy - a cosmetically perfect human but exposed by agitated tribble and medical scan. I cannot believe that Voq learned spy craft so quickly...it would take years just to learn how to speak at a NORMAL human rate....."Ash" is wounded and will need medical attention, if he is a Klingon, then his mission will end in Sickbay....

[Lokiberry]

34 minutes ago, paigow said:

In Trouble With Tribbles - 10 years from "now" - "Arne Darvin" was a deep cover Klingon spy - a cosmetically perfect human but exposed by agitated tribble and medical scan. I cannot believe that Voq learned spy craft so quickly...it would take years just to learn how to speak at a NORMAL human rate....."Ash" is wounded and will need medical attention, if he is a Klingon, then his mission will end in Sickbay....

I think we're just going to have to fanwank around Arne Darvin. I suspect L'Rell's matriarchs have done a much better job on Ash/Voq and he's virtually undetectable (except by tribble). I also don't think he's the only spy. Somebody had to give the Klingons Lorca's flight plan, so they could intercept him.

[MissLucas]

The Klingon's were not just familiar with Lorca's flight plan but also with his medical history. Klingon intelligence is quite impressive. As for Ash - a real Ash must exist in Starfleet records. I assume Ash was captured and if we're going with the Ash/Voq theory he was used as a blueprint. Nothing in Voq's behavior so far suggested that he's cut out for that level of deception so my money's on unaware sleeper - think Final Five.

Edited October 20, 2017 by MissLucas

[marinw]

So that's why the Discovery is so dark? Why can't Lorca wear sunglasses indoors?

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

The Klingon's were not just familiar with Lorca's flight plan but also with his medical history. Klingon intelligence is quite impressive. As for Ash....

Having the conveniently left behind and yet fully intact Shenzou with fully accessible tablets loaded with Star Fleet personnel files sure helps for providing a very easy start to that "intelligence" gathering. 

[tpel]

14 hours ago, jsbt said:

I don't know why people are still debating - that was 100% L'Rell. The question is if Tyler knows he is Voq, or if he is now a sleeper agent.

I was one of the early doubters on L'Rell, and I'll admit that the case is closed: it is L'Rell. A friend and I compared still images from an earlier episode with those from episode five. While the makeup is a little different, and very different lighting exaggerates the effect of makeup differences (she looks a lot more ridgey in good light), it is definitely the same actress. But I think there are open questions about Ash and Voq. I'm spoiler-free, so as far as I can tell, there are a few options on the table here:

(1) Ash is really a genetically altered Voq, and he knows it.

(2) Ash is really a genetically altered Voq, but he doesn't know it, and will presumably be "activated" in the future.

(3) Ash is not Voq, but L'Rell's raping him was a cover for obtaining genetic material, that she will use to transform Voq.

(4) There is really not much connection between Ash and Voq, though something shady was happening between L'Rell and Ash -- maybe he's an informant or spy.

(5) Ash was telling the truth; he's just a prisoner of war who fell victim to L'Rell's advances.

 

4 hours ago, paigow said:

In Trouble With Tribbles - 10 years from "now" - "Arne Darvin" was a deep cover Klingon spy - a cosmetically perfect human but exposed by agitated tribble and medical scan. I cannot believe that Voq learned spy craft so quickly...it would take years just to learn how to speak at a NORMAL human rate....."Ash" is wounded and will need medical attention, if he is a Klingon, then his mission will end in Sickbay....

This is an awesome argument against (1) and maybe (2). Seriously, if the dude can't speak his native language at a normal rate, how is he managing English so well? But how funny would it be if his downfall was the kite little tribble in Lorca's office?

[CanadaPhil]

Another part to this Ash thing is that Lorca certainly has a feeling that Ash may not be who he appears to be.

Lorca has certainly demonstrated that he was not born yesterday and will probably want to get to the very bottom of what may be going on behind the scenes. 

It will be obvious to him that the Klingons did not come upon his shuttle by sheer chance which must he gnawing on him... Is there a conspriracy in Star Fleet?

I see Lorca'a attitude towards Ash as being one of those "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" things..... for now.

:)

[paigow]

Voq reminds me of the Spartan hunchback in "300" crossed with Forrest Gump...social outcast with several chips on his shoulders...smart enough to be a soldier, but not a deep cover operative...

Furthermore, no character can be called Ash if he is not played by Bruce Campbell...

Edited October 20, 2017 by paigow

[jsbt]

L'Rell's people could have trained Voq in everything he needed to know. Possibly conditioned his mind to speak our language perfectly. It's science fiction in the future, they're not subject to the same limits we are.

[starri]

"May the sun and moon watch your comings and goings in the endless nights and days that are before you."  Tilly says it before she and Michael let Ripper go.  It sounds like a prayer, and a lot of people have said it seems to be a tweaked version of the Song of Ascent.  I wonder if the show is trying to subtly tell us that Tilly is Jewish.

I'd like that.  I'm as big a non-believer as they come, but I've never really liked Gene Roddenberry's idea that spirituality is something to evolve beyond.  As a cultural identity at least, if not in the actual belief in a creator.

[Lebanna]

Lorca's backstory reminds me of all those stories in the last few years of ferry captains jumping on the first lifeboat and leaving crew and passengers to drown. It's fun to have a captain with a kind of unforgivable backstory. But I'm sure we'll find out later that there was more too it, unless they actually want us to dislike him permanently. And of course, it explains why he immediately latched on to Michael, as she is probably the one person involved in the Binary Stars that behaved even worse than he did. It would definitely be comforting to hire the only person alive who guarantees that you are forever not the worst person on the ship. 

I found Lorca weirdly attractive in this episode, which is unfortunate as I kind of loathe him. But something about how he instantly jumped up and grabbed that rifle on the shuttle just did it for me and I was kind of into him for the next half an hour. I don't know what to say. Hopefully it will wear off.

That bit where he chucked the squeaking bug at the wall seemed like the kind of thing probably only Kirk or possibly Sisko (if it were a vole) would have done. All the other captains were either shown to be total animal lovers (Archer definitely, maybe Janeway) or just wouldn't have decided to take their anger out on a poor little beastie (Picard). But then, Lorca just is all about the animal cruelty all of the time. 

Speaking of the bug, its relationship with Mudd kind of reminded me of Boris The Animal (It's Just Boris) and his bug hand-creatures, from Men In Black III. And on that note, it was awesome to see young Mudd. He was so very unlikable on TOS, and I always kind of disliked his episodes a bit, so anything that gives me some value added when I rewatch them will be much appreciated. 

Stamets and Tilly continue to be my favourite people, but the doctor gets to join that group this week. That bathroom scene was just adorable. I know other people have mentioned their favourite cannon Star Trek couples, and I always liked Tom and B'Elanna as well - and yes, these two may just out-cute them too. Star Trek is often so bad at writing good long-term relationships (or often, good relationships at all), so I really hope this lasts.

Saru is so delightfully messed up. And with all his tics, the ganglia popping out and the little crackling sounds he makes, he's a very emotional guy and he just can't hide it. So of course he and Michael have a love/hate thing. It's very different from McCoy and Spock, but there is an echo of that.

I'm not getting into the whole Ash/Voq thing, but I agree with what's been said here and I'm happy to just wait and see how it plays out. Although if he is, and he and Michael ever get close, and she finds out that he ate Captain Georgiou, that will be a Vulcan style screaming rage meltdown that I would pay (even more) money to see. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Lebanna

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

 Although if he is, and he and Michael ever get close, and she finds out that he ate Captain Georgiou.... 

Reminds me of Hot Shots

Topper: What are you mad at me for? I'm not the one who ate your father!

[CanadaPhil]

3 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Lorca's backstory reminds me of all those stories in the last few years of ferry captains jumping on the first lifeboat and leaving crew and passengers to drown. It's fun to have a captain with a kind of unforgivable backstory.....

I find this new series really intriguing and Lorca is an entirely new breed of Star Fleet Captn. that we have never seen before.

I don't buy for 1 second that Lorca is a man that would abandon his crew to so that he could live another day... or hour. He is strictly the go down fighting kind of man the way I see him.

[Sandman]

On October 15, 2017 at 9:18 PM, ottoDbusdriver said:

And I guess the tardigrade injection did have one lingering side-effect on Stamets -- quite literally a mirror universe version of himself.  In his bathroom mirror.

I couldn't decide if it was some sort of indication that Stamets is now distributed in some way across the network (which would be weirdly metaphysical and creepy) or if the whole first part of the mirror scene was a kind of delusion, and the version of Stamets we saw at the end, alone, was the real version, and there is no relationship with Dr. Ricky -- er, Culber (which would be psychologically creepy and sad).

The disco uniforms are also sad ...and Jayne Brook, with her mostly immobilized face, is creepier than your average nuKlngon. I'm sorry, but I just can't with her. 

I did enjoy the reference to Capt. Robert April on the roll call of the most decorated captains -- the Animated Series gettin' some love!

Edited October 22, 2017 by Sandman

[CanadaPhil]

3 hours ago, Lebanna said:

.......

I found Lorca weirdly attractive in this episode, which is unfortunate as I kind of loathe him. But something about how he instantly jumped up and grabbed that rifle on the shuttle just did it for me....

That is a very telling scene. He is instantly "large and in charge" in that moment. You add this to his collected and calculating demeanour while determining his next move in captivity along with going back for Ash and you have a picture of a man  who is certainly not a coward... like his whiny First Officer clearly is.

Geez.... Saru has Zero redeeming qualities from my point of view. The way in which he demeans his subordinates is beyond contempt. He inspires no confidence at all. I don't see how anyone could follow him.

Edited October 22, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[tpel]

5 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Lorca's backstory reminds me of all those stories in the last few years of ferry captains jumping on the first lifeboat and leaving crew and passengers to drown. It's fun to have a captain with a kind of unforgivable backstory. But I'm sure we'll find out later that there was more too it, unless they actually want us to dislike him permanently. And of course, it explains why he immediately latched on to Michael, as she is probably the one person involved in the Binary Stars that behaved even worse than he did. It would definitely be comforting to hire the only person alive who guarantees that you are forever not the worst person on the ship. 

I found Lorca weirdly attractive in this episode, which is unfortunate as I kind of loathe him. But something about how he instantly jumped up and grabbed that rifle on the shuttle just did it for me and I was kind of into him for the next half an hour. I don't know what to say. Hopefully it will wear off.

I think Lorca has a long list of moral and personality flaws . . . but cowardice is not one of them. He killed his crew to spare them death by protracted torture. That might have been a whopping error of judgement -- how could he be so sure that there was no way at least some of them could be saved later on? And it connotes a certain level of arrogance, that he thinks he can make this decision for all those under him. But a coward would have just left, telling himself he was going for back-up or something. And I don't think he was fleeing. I assume that he was already off the ship for some reason, in a shuttle, or that he needed to get off the ship in order to destroy it. His own survival was hardly guaranteed. Perhaps the Buran's explosion was enough to take out all the klingon vessels in the area. If not, Lorca would be alone in a shuttle, perhaps temporarily blinded, surrounded by pissed off klingons eager to deliver him to that fate-worse-than-death he so wanted his crew to avoid.

Edited October 22, 2017 by tpel

[Lebanna]

3 hours ago, tpel said:

I think Lorca has a long list of moral and personality flaws . . . but cowardice is not one of them. He killed his crew to spare them death by protracted torture. That might have been a whopping error of judgement -- how could he be so sure that there was no way at least some of them could be saved later on? And it connotes a certain level of arrogance, that he thinks he can make this decision for all those under him. But a coward would have just left, telling himself he was going for back-up or something. And I don't think he was fleeing. I assume that he was already off the ship for some reason, in a shuttle, or that he needed to get off the ship in order to destroy it. His own survival was hardly guaranteed. Perhaps the Buran's explosion was enough to take out all the klingon vessels in the area. If not, Lorca would be alone in a shuttle, perhaps temporarily blinded, surrounded by pissed off klingons eager to deliver him to that fate-worse-than-death he so wanted his crew to avoid.

Yes, I'm sure there will turn out to be a practical reason why he had to get off the ship. Otherwise he would have been in prison with Michael, not captain of a lovely new ship. 

But as you say, it certainly seems that he is also punishing himself by keeping his eye injury painful.

So that implies that there is a lot of guilt there, deserved or otherwise.

I hope we see a flashback to Lorca before the Binary at some later point, as it would be interesting to know how much of this semi-evil persona is the situation, and how much is just him. I somehow doubt he was ever a big old cheery goofball, even before this happened.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Lebanna

[Vandy10]

On October 20, 2017 at 8:45 AM, jsbt said:

Tyler is absolutely Voq. The minute L'Rell mentioned her house being the deceivers and how Voq would need to lose "everything" I knew what it meant. The ultimate irony: The racially pure Klingon bigot becomes human and most likely

  Reveal hidden contents

fucks a human Starfleet officer.

 I wonder if this was part of Fuller's original concept. Knowing his fascination with transformation in his past work I would not be surprised. (The spore drive/network is also almost certainly all him - he was fascinated by plants in Hannibal, etc.)

I don't know why people are still debating - that was 100% L'Rell. The question is if Tyler knows he is Voq, or if he is now a sleeper agent.

I still don't care about the OG Harry Mudd, but Rainn Wilson was great.

Until this week's credits I had no idea the admiral was not Caroline Dhavernas from Hannibal and Wonderfalls. Jayne Brook's gained a lot of character as she's gotten older.

I'm down for a good character conspiracy theory, so I'm on board for Ash possibly being Voq. The only thing that was holding me back was his rage when pounding on L'Rell during his escape with Lorca. However, your bolded does solve that problem. And it also fits in with what L'Rell told him about losing everything. Not only did he lose his Klingon body, but also his memory and personality. I'm in. :)

[Sandman]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:45 PM, jsbt said:

Tyler is absolutely Voq. The minute L'Rell mentioned her house being the deceivers and how Voq would need to lose "everything" I knew what it meant.

It seemed that L'Rell tried to stop him from leaving, based on "...everything [they'd] been through." That doesn't sound to me like something she'd say to an agent about to be implanted on his mission. Of course, it doesn't sound like something to say to your garden-variety prisoner/torture subject, either ...

Edited October 23, 2017 by Sandman