S03.E02: To Josh, With Love

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Rebecca, unsatisfied with Paula’s ideas to build a case against Josh, turns to Nathaniel for help crafting a truly evil plan. Meanwhile, Josh finds becoming a priest is harder than he thought.

Promo:

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Rinaldo]

One of the songs has already been made available.

[nightowl1989]

That redo of Paula's song was EPIC!

[Spartan Girl]

When Rebecca broke down in front of Nathaniel and let loose about how badly Josh hurt and humiliated her, for that brief second, she was a rational sympathetic person.

And then she confronted Josh in her wedding dress and exposed all her stalking. Oopsy. But up until that little mistake, her ripping Josh a new one was awesome.

Not that I'm justifying any of Rebecca's actions, but Josh's gleefully throwing aside all his guilt made me want to kick  him in the balls. You were right not to marry her, but what you did was still awful.

JFC why do people even LIKE this guy? He's an insensitive dullard that isn't even that hot!!

[Rinaldo]

Hot is in the eye of the beholder. Also, we've seen repeatedly (as far back as episode 3, with Rebecca's housewarming party) that he has a knack for helping people feel better and saying just the right thing. As long as it's not a high-pressure situation for him.

Sheesh, 5 new songs tonight to add to my Sporcle quiz to add to my Sporcle quiz of all the songs! :)

[Irlandesa]

The songs have been pretty strong so far this season.  I wasn't as enamored last season.  I think my favorite was Rebecca's last song and the "Empty Chairs & Empty Tables" homage. 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Not that I'm justifying any of Rebecca's actions, but Josh's gleefully throwing aside all his guilt made me want to kick  him in the balls. You were right not to marry her, but what you did was still awful.

I'm no Josh fan.  He was wrong.

But after learning what Rebecca did, I think it's natural and even okay to let go of the guilt and sort of back away from it all.

[srpturtle80]

I had a really shitty day as I had to put my cat to sleep this afternoon. So I was hoping for some lighthearted fluff. It was ok, but I’m really hoping that they quickly address Rebecca’s mental health struggles. I think I did read in an interview with her that it would be addressed this season. 

Probably in the minority but I find her and Nathaniel pretty hot together. I enjoyed her song for him and the end when she tossed the thong and said “that was just up my butt” did make me LOL. 

Thought the story with Tim(?) and his wife was stupid. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by srpturtle80

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

When Rebecca broke down in front of Nathaniel and let loose about how badly Josh hurt and humiliated her, for that brief second, she was a rational sympathetic person.

And then she confronted Josh in her wedding dress and exposed all her stalking. Oopsy. But up until that little mistake, her ripping Josh a new one was awesome.

Not that I'm justifying any of Rebecca's actions, but Josh's gleefully throwing aside all his guilt made me want to kick  him in the balls. You were right not to marry her, but what you did was still awful.

Josh deserved every last bit of Rebecca's invective. As White Josh and Hector clearly demonstrated, Josh was a juvenile chicken shit, who should have just talked to Rebecca. It's unsurprising because he kind of pulled the same shit with Valencia.

Rebecca just decided to lay ALL of her crazy out there. Yikes.

Quote

JFC why do people even LIKE this guy? He's an insensitive dullard that isn't even that hot!!

Josh is terrible, but I suspect people put up with him because he doesn't intend to hurt people.

I enjoyed Nathaniel and Rebecca's send up of Fifty Shades of Grey. Nathaniel and Rebecca are actually pretty hot together. He actually listens to her.

I suspect that Tim's subplot is a PSA from the female writers to the universe.

[SeanC]

Is that the most songs they've had in one episode?  Quite a variety of styles, too.

[Cthulhudrew]

Priest-school. Ha!

[DianeDobbler]

The reason I can't be mad at Josh - whom I like - is I can see Rebecca doing the exact same thing under similar circumstances. Maybe he's not as "crazy" as she is, but his coping skills are the flip side of the same coin.  In fact, in a lower key way, she DID do the same thing, in Season 1. "Settle for Me. " I'm not a Greg fan, and I know many people saw that date they went on as a great date Rebecca sabotaged. I did not. I saw it as Rebecca persuaded by Greg's logic, and what it looked like on paper - Josh is unavailable, Greg's attractive, he IS available, they get along, and doesn't it make "a certain sense", as Rebecca sang in "settle for me." But during the date, which went well superficially, I saw Rebecca become more and more claustrophobic, while still urging herself along, and when Greg suggested they move things along to her place, she retreated to a port'o'potty to get her bearings, and sang "Settle for him." in the mirror. She couldn't. She wasn't there. She wasn't feeling it. I think it's one thing to hook up, and another to enact a facsimile of a dating relationship where you're supposed to show more. I think she was suffocating, and she bailed, grabbing the vegan guy and hooking up. I think Greg, who counted on getting laid, was more pissed that she shagged a stranger instead of him, but that was the whole point. She wasn't afraid of intimacy - Greg didn't represent intimacy at that point. He represented a "smart choice 'on paper'" but she wasn't ready and was forcing herself through it. She couldn't do it, and retreated to her comfort zone, a one night stand." I get it. That is so much better than trying to do what the guy wants, a guy who wants more than you've got to give him. So essentially Rebecca ran out on this date and fucked somebody else, and IMO her reasons were legit even though her actions were rude. I don't think she owed Greg a bang, even through of all her inconsideration and lack of disclosure on that date, he seemed most appalled she fucked some other guy when he thought that slot was his that day.

So, this aborted Josh/Rebecca wedding. Until two weeks prior, Josh and Rebecca were getting married in two YEARS. Abruptly she announces the venue is available, and it's two weeks. Josh still remembers the time Rebecca declared she was pregnant, turned out she wasn't, and how manic and disturbing she'd been behaving. The engagment abruptly went from two years to two weeks, with Rebecca appropriating someone else's pinterest ideas for the theme. She was acting extremely intense and not always rational (we remember the DIY wedding prep, right). She was almost on drugs without being on drugs - super intense, tunnel visioned, obviously repressing and railroading over a ton of things. Josh is no whiz kid but he could feel all of this, and he's getting no clarification from his financee. Finally the Robert thing comes out and Rebecca lies to Josh. PLUS let's remember she had the hots for Nathanial at the time, another reason she decided to suppress those wayward feelings and railroad Josh to the altar on an accelerated schedule. Josh was more and more uneasy and stressed, Rebecca was unavailable despite their engagement, and finally he ran, and ran TOWARDS something particular, to cover his ass probably. I have a vocation! I'm not just dumping the bride. Also, remember the song Rebecca sang the morning of the wedding. It was all about the validation getting married would bring her. Getting married was going to solve all of what she thought were her problems. Rebecca should definitely not have been getting married.

I switch them out, put Rebecca in Josh's shoes, and I get it, and I get what Josh did. I don't think Josh did anything Rebecca wouldn't have done if the shoe were on the other foot. Rebecca is always trying on roles. That's what Josh is doing. A role that will justifiy and validate their confused, unended circumstances in life an appear to reconcile all the pieces.

Edited October 21, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[quangtran]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Is that the most songs they've had in one episode?  Quite a variety of styles, too.

I believe so. Four full songs -three oringials and one reprise-is a record for this show. The previous was "When Will Josh See How Cool I Am", which had three orignials. Some episode has had three tunes, but those usaully consist of reprises (Don't settle for Me) or throwaway numbers (Romantic Moments, Period Sex, Where is the Rock, I have Friends).

[dungeonwriter]

Oh god, the reprise made me actually scared for Rebecca's sanity. Like, she really really hit rock bottom levels there. When you lay it out like how she did, she comes across as a dangerously unhinged stalker. 

Sigh, it's hard to laugh. I'm just cringing. 

But 

 

I need to send this to a guy I like. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by dungeonwriter

[Spartan Girl]

@DianeDobbler you are absolutely right about everything. Both Josh and Rebecca are equally guilty in using each other to avoid their own problems. But as crazy as Rebecca is, Josh still could have at least broken up with her to her face LONG BEFORE the wedding instead of making Father Brah do it for him at the last second. In fact, he never should have gotten back together with her in the first place. He should have let things go instead of rushing with that impulsive proposal just because he found out she was his "soup fairy."

[doesntworkonwood]

I really liked this episode. I like that they're getting wackier as the seasons progress and I'm all for it. 

I did like the orgasm subplot, though I didn't like the song. It amused me just how oblivious Tim was, plus I think that with all of the characters getting wackier and wackier, it's nice to have something that grounds the episode a little bit. 

I'm really happy with the direction they're taking Nathaniel's character. They could have taken him down a much serious route, but I'm glad that they haven't. I don't want to say he's a male version of Rebecca, but he is his own definition of crazy which I like. I don't want them to be together together, but I do like how they're playing about with their relationship. 

Not happy with Josh or his sub-plot. It was a bit boring and lacked the humour of the other two plots. Plus, it's still really rude not to say anything to your ex-fiancee after you leave them at the alter to become a priest. The least you could do is shoot them a text to acknowledge what you've done. 

[DianeDobbler]

I agree but that's expecting more maturity from Josh than he has shown at this point, than Rebecca has shown at this point, than most characters other than maybe White Josh are capable of at this point. Rebecca's not the only "crazy" one on the show. Nobody on CEG has handled their relationships in a mature manner. Rushing / impulsive is Josh just as much as it's Rebecca.  He's never been alone on the show as far as I remember. When he's not w/Rebecca, he's with someone. That's his dysfunction. Greg showed maturity the episode he left, but it was a LONG time coming for him. (And Rebecca should have told him "It's not you, it's me." on their date instead of just disappearing and taking a stranger home.) I don't think there's much wrong with how Josh, Rebecca and others feel on this show, it's how they handle it that creates drama, and that's across the board, not just with Rebecca. It took two seasons for Valencia to confront the reality about her relationship with Josh - she was pushing for marriage with a guy who just wasn't into it - for FIFTEEN YEARS.  I don't necessarily think this show is about a crazy, dysfunctional woman and the people around her. The people around her are nearly as crazy in their own way, and then they intersect with her. I just don't want to hold them to a higher standard than I hold her.

[HunterHunted]

Did anyone hear the "Sexy Getting Ready Song" as the score when Rebecca got her dress and lingerie gift from Nathaniel?

[Rinaldo]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

Is that the most songs they've had in one episode?  Quite a variety of styles, too.

As to "most songs," more below. I agree about variety of styles, though (to my personal delight) these are all styles from musicals (as opposed to music videos, which they sometimes do): Gene Kelly (Singin' in the Rain), Bob Fosse (music more Cy Coleman than Kander & Ebb), Les Mis, and the Gypsy-esque reprise. 

6 hours ago, quangtran said:

I believe so. Four full songs -three oringials and one reprise-is a record for this show. The previous was "When Will Josh See How Cool I Am", which had three orignials. Some episode has had three tunes, but those usaully consist of reprises (Don't settle for Me) or throwaway numbers (Romantic Moments, Period Sex, Where is the Rock, I have Friends).

Great analysis, and I appreciate that others here get into the statistics as I do! However, "When Will Josh See How Cool I Am?" also had a reprise in addition to  its three original songs: the reprise of "I Could If I Wanted To." And as tonight also contained the debut of the new theme song, maybe that tips it over into presenting more original songs? 

Actually, for those of us who really go down the song-counting rabbit hole, if we count mini-reprises and throwaways, there have been still other episodes with four (I don't count "Who's the Cool Girl Josh Is Dating?", because "Let Me Call You Sweetheart" is an old song not written for this series).

We have "Who Needs Josh When You Have a Girl Group?", which besides "Friendtopia" and "Stuck in the Bathroom" has that strange little ditty "This Song Goes in a Loop de Loop" and the few seconds of "Trent Is Getting Ready Song." There's "Josh Is the Man of My Dreams, Right?", with "Santa Ana Winds," "Let's Have Intercourse," "You're My Best Friend," and in the tag, Weird Karen's reprise of a sliver of "The Math of Love Triangles." We can go back to "Josh and I Go to Los Angeles!" where in addition to the JAP rap battle and the two renditions of "Flooded with Justice" we have Trent's interrupted tag "Dear Rebecca Nora Bunch." And an obsessive like me can actually count five in "When Will Josh See How Cool I Am?", because Rebecca sings an almost subliminal reprise of "I Give Good Parent." Whew!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

S3 theme song:

 

After Everything You Made Me Do:

 

I've Got My Head in the Clouds:

Edited October 21, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Phishbulb]

Who are the characters that Rachel is playing in the new opening to the show? I guess the blonde is supposed to be Carrie Underwood (specifically referencing the "Before He Cheats" video), and the guy in the hoodie is Eminem I guess. Who are the brunette and the (guy?) in the leather jacket and red shirt?

Given that Joseph Khan directed this intro, I would have figured he would work in Taylor Swift in there as he's directed quite a few of her videos. I guess the dark haired woman could be her; Taylor did have dark hair in her "Wildest Dreams" video (which Khan directed). Maybe they thought it would be confusing to have two blondes in there.

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm no Josh fan.  He was wrong.

But after learning what Rebecca did, I think it's natural and even okay to let go of the guilt and sort of back away from it all.

I think Josh can and should definitely back away from Rebecca. But let go of the guilt? He left her at the altar. He still hasn't apologized to her for that. Regardless of her behavior—most of which he didn't know about until her song—he shouldn't let himself off the hook just yet. He needs to grow a spine and grow up and have the hard conversations. He could at least tell her, "My bad."

[alrightokay]

37 minutes ago, Phishbulb said:

Given that Joseph Khan directed this intro, I would have figured he would work in Taylor Swift in there as he's directed quite a few of her videos. I guess the dark haired woman could be her; Taylor did have dark hair in her "Wildest Dreams" video (which Khan directed). Maybe they thought it would be confusing to have two blondes in there.

I almost thought Rebecca was going to lay into Josh with her own version of TS's "Look What You Made Me Do" in the church.  (OMG, Rebecca is totally Taylor Swift encapsulated and unhinged--all the lovesickness, the fairy tale-fantasies, the squad goals, and now the revenge theme.  Except Rebecca's truly a feminist, whereas I feel like TS plays at it.)

I loved this episode.  I was so confused and bored by the Tim subplot at first but then his song was so hilarious and I could see how his inability to satisfy his wife paralleled Rebecca's inability to find release from Josh.  Even after she "climaxed" by letting it all out at the church, she couldn't be content afterwards, because now she has to deal with the fallout of telling him all the sketchy things she did.  AND, Josh doesn't even feel bad anymore, so the satisfaction she got from telling him off was fleeting.  And one last thing about the Tim-plot--I wonder if Paula's not even realizing that she said those mean things to Tim is a sign that she's becoming over-absorbed by the Josh lawsuit and is letting her marriage deteriorate again.  The whole line about how Tim and his wife have huge communication problems seemed to echo her own situation with Scott, but she didn't seem to make that connection.

I'm TeamNathaniel.  Every single scene between Nathaniel and Rebecca wasn't just hot, it was clever and funny (I loved all the ways they poked fun at 50 Shades of Grey, with her criticizing the lingerie he sent her, the whole helicopter farce, the masks).  I loved the Snape reference in her "Strip It All Away" song because it was a callback to their Harry Potter/Slytherin/Ravenclaw discussion in the elevator.  They have so much in common in terms of their insecurities, their obsessions, and their ability to put together complicated plots.  I feel like Nathaniel sees Rebecca as she really is and still accepts her; I'm hoping she starts to see him as he really is and that they can help each other get healthier in the end.  (I know there are a lot of TeamNoGuyforRebecca fans, and I realize that that would perhaps be the strongest "feminist" ending that Bloom could create; but for now, I'm really enjoying N and R's dynamic.)

Last but not least, the songs were fabulous--especially Josh's "Head in the Clouds."  It was such a delight, with the "Holy Ghost" popping up, the witty puns, and the joyful dancing.  What a fantastic showcase for Vincent.

(And my fave Hector was back--love him!)  

Edited October 21, 2017 by alrightokay

[Kirsty]

13 hours ago, srpturtle80 said:

It was ok, but I’m really hoping that they quickly address Rebecca’s mental health struggles.

I expect them to address it, but given that the show is about her mental health struggles, I don't expect her to learn and grow any time soon. Other characters can mature (see Greg and Paula at the start of the second season), but I think her character's journey is a downward spiral and she's going to get much worse. I really wanted her to talk to a therapist this week though.

Rebecca and Nathaniel were sexy together, but man, that was fast. I was not expecting them to hook up in episode two. So, they're physically attracted to each other. And he might genuinely like her? But she's drawn to the worst in him! She was attracted to him when he was cold, selfish, and amoral, and not when he sent her a basket of girly things in the wake of the wedding fiasco. So if they dated she wouldn't want him to become a better person. I did enjoy that he was talking to his favourite person in his office and it turned out to be a picture of himself when he was winning! Lolz.

I was glad when Rebecca confronted Josh in public and had it all out. I felt he deserved a scene like that, and literally leaving him at the altar was a lovely touch.

[msani19]

56 minutes ago, alrightokay said:

I was so confused and bored by the Tim subplot at first but then his song was so hilarious and I could see how his inability to satisfy his wife paralleled Rebecca's inability to find release from Josh.  Even after she "climaxed" by letting it all out at the church, she couldn't be content afterwards, because now she has to deal with the fallout of telling him all the sketchy things she did.

At first, I thought this `was meant to be in another episode, but I like this perspective. I was quite amused with the entire plotline because there are far too many men who think they have "given" a woman an orgasm because they think a female orgasm is like theirs. From his smugness when telling them that they both orgasm at the exact same time, I knew they were setting him up for a rude awakening later. Then when they told him that it wasn't an electric toothbrush (WTF dude, you seriously thought she was brushing her teeth after sex??? Yea, you didn't think about it at all!) but a vibrator - the way the other woman delivered the line had me in stitches! I also liked the cold, detached way Paula pointed things out to him - you've never given your wife an orgasm ever and you guys have some serious communication issues. Plus, the way she said my bad I can be too mean sometimes, then proceeded to deliver another devasting line. 

I was happy to see Rebecca head over to confront Josh until her song was about how HE made her do all those crazy things. Then Josh's first reaction is YES, it's not me it's her. So basically neither one of them is ever able to take a moment of reflection and acknowledge that they have done the wrong thing. It has to be someone else's fault. Josh is so dumb, it hurts..."priest school"? *eye roll*. A draft email that he couldn't even finish? Then he tries to read it to Rebecca? What a pathetic coward.

I know that Rebecca has mental health struggles, and looks like next week there might begin to address it. I go back and forth on how I feel about Rebecca, where sometimes I genuinely sympathize with her and other times I think how can anyone tolerate this person. 

I hope that Nathaniel was able to stop those truly awful retaliations against Josh's family. That wasn't even funny. Especially what he had planned for Josh's Dad. 

The scenes with Rebecca and Nathaniel are pretty hot, but they actually leave me cold. There's something so superficial about their interactions like they are both an image they are projecting to the other person and it's all a game. Nathaniel has his own bucket of issues and Rebecca is exactly the wrong person to be with. Actually, she shouldn't be with anyone. She brings out the worst instincts all of the people around her.

 

Hmm...I guess I had more thoughts than I thought! 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, alrightokay said:

the Tim subplot

I cracked up at the last convo between Tim and Paula when he told her he was grateful for her bluntness, and she said it was on his wife for not saying something for 11 years, and that probably indicated major communication issues, and Tim's face was all, "Oh, crap; nothing is solved." Hee. 

9 minutes ago, msani19 said:

I hope that Nathaniel was able to stop those truly awful retaliations against Josh's family. That wasn't even funny. Especially what he had planned for Josh's Dad. 

I was surprised he went so scorched earth. It felt OOC, actually, to go after Josh's family that hard-core. 

[possibilities]

I was glad Rebecca was upset by the plans to destroy Josh's family. I was not sure if she had any brakes anywhere, but now at least that's been established.

The thing about this show is, the people seem quite a mess, but most of their behavior is not all that far from how a lot of people actually behave. So yes, it's awful, but no, it's not hard to believe, not really. It's a little exaggerated, bit not nearly as much as we might want to think it is.

[Eeksquire]

So, I love the reprise of Paula's song, but... don't other people already know about most of those things? Actually, I mean, Paula might know about more of the things than anyone else, but Heather and Valencia were there for a couple of those things... I just don't know that I buy it as such an emergency that "OMG, people will know!" People already know.

Also: I am Team Nathaniel.  There's something really great about the dynamic between him and Rebecca (not healthy, mind you, but fun to watch).  And I do like that Nathaniel, while perhaps now attracted to Rebecca, is still just as evil as he was when he was introduced.

[tennisgurl]

Rebecca is now heading towards some a real mental health breakdown, especially after that freak out at the church. It seemed like Rebecca had become some kind of crazed vengeance ghost for a second there. Lets not forget that, not all that long ago, Rebecca burned a guys house down and ended up institutionalized. On the other hand, she did have a few moments of rationality here and there, so its probably not too late for her. 

Josh does deserve to feel bad for what he did to Rebecca, but Rebecca certainly is in the wrong for her months of stalking and attempts at manipulating Joshes life. Really, Josh leaving Rebecca was the right call, and maybe if Rebecca hadn't moved the wedding to so soon, he would have done it earlier, BUT the way he did it was the worst, most selfish, cowardly way possible. Especially not getting in touch with her for two weeks afterwards. Thats pretty inexcusable. I dont think Josh is a totally irredeemable asshole, he usually means well, but the guy is rather dim, and refuses to actually deal with his problems, going for quick fixes and avoidance instead. As someone else mentioned, its a lot like Rebecca, actually. Instead of dealing with real life, they both try to focus on other things instead, even when its harmful to themselves or others. I do think they'll deal with Rebecca's problems though. The show has done a good job in the past at addressing others issues I've had with the show. 

So many songs this week! I especially thought the sexy song with Rebecca was awesome, and, yes, actually pretty sexy, even while being goofy at parts. Rebecca and Nathaniel are pretty great right now, even if they arent super healthy. Granted, could any normal, totally well adjusted person really hold Rebecca's attention? 

The Tim plot was funny, especially if its more of a metaphor for the bigger story. So much trouble could have been avoided if people just talked to each other. 

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Josh can and should definitely back away from Rebecca. But let go of the guilt? He left her at the altar. He still hasn't apologized to her for that. Regardless of her behavior—most of which he didn't know about until her song—he shouldn't let himself off the hook just yet. He needs to grow a spine and grow up and have the hard conversations. He could at least tell her, "My bad."

I'm speaking from Josh's perspective and, frankly, mine.  Josh did a bad thing.  People were telling him he did a bad thing.  He was a coward to drag his feet on addressing it but the second she confronted him with "look at all the things you made me do" including following him after he led her on in NY (he didn't), hiding in the bathroom twice while he had sex with his girlfriends, running over an ex's cat and essentially exposing her stalker tendencies, I get why he meets the idea of apologizing with a "fuck no!"  

I would not apologize to my stalker even if I technically did something wrong.  Just wouldn't. I'd have no interest in smoothing things over after learning about the things he/she had done even before I did my shitty thing. I wouldn't feel bad about it. I'd feel relieved that my crappy thing actually saved me.

14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Did anyone hear the "Sexy Getting Ready Song" as the score when Rebecca got her dress and lingerie gift from Nathaniel?

While there were many new songs, I'd say most were related to previous songs.  Josh's song was in the same style as "Tapped That Ass." Then there was the reprise of Paula's song.  I think the Empty Chairs homage is pretty new.

7 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

So, I love the reprise of Paula's song, but... don't other people already know about most of those things? Actually, I mean, Paula might know about more of the things than anyone else, but Heather and Valencia were there for a couple of those things... I just don't know that I buy it as such an emergency that "OMG, people will know!" People already know.

I think Paula is the only one who knows it all so she's the one who won't be surprised.  Valencia knows about the cat but she doesn't know that Rachel was hiding in the bathroom while she and Josh had sex. It's one of those things that when they're apart of Rebecca's schemes, they can kind of justify them.  But I think hearing them all put together will be quite a shock for a lot of people.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Irlandesa

[theatremouse]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Lets not forget that, not all that long ago, Rebecca burned a guys house down and ended up institutionalized. On the other hand, she did have a few moments of rationality here and there, so its probably not too late for her. 

Wasn't that close to 10 years ago? I don't disagree on the importance of remembering that reveal, but I do disagree about it being not that long ago. That said it's also the sort of thing where if you're capable of that, you probably stay capable of it, regardless of recency.

Rachel Bloom had some awesome subtle facial expressions during that Fosse-esque number. I really enjoyed that.

I like officemates for filling out office scenes and serving as chorus in larger songs, but I didn't really feel like I needed that Tim subplot. Other than feeling mouthpiece y, I don't really need the show to dig into those tertiary characters more, and it felt out of left field. It was also super sexual harrassment city in the break room...not that there aren't clear boundary issues in that office but I was put off by that plot nearly the second it started. From a "wait why are you having this conversation with coworkers?" angle. It was distracting.

[OoogleEyes]

I just adore this show

That is all, carry on...

[possibilities]

Rebecca not only burned down that house, but when asked about why she was saying the name of the guy she did it to, she lied about who the name referred to. She's extremely wrong in multiple ways, but no one knows all of it, not even Paula, and that colors their reactions and how right or wrong their own behavior is.

[SmithW6079]

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I cracked up at the last convo between Tim and Paula when he told her he was grateful for her bluntness, and she said it was on his wife for not saying something for 11 years, and that probably indicated major communication issues, and Tim's face was all, "Oh, crap; nothing is solved." Hee. 

 

Paula was a grade A bitch to Tim in that scene, but then again, she's been a bitch from the start, beginning with her obsession with Rebecca's life, the way she aided and abetted Rebecca's stalking, including the destruction of Josh's relationship with Valencia, the way she treated her husband and family, the way she treats her coworkers.

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm speaking from Josh's perspective and, frankly, mine.  Josh did a bad thing.  People were telling him he did a bad thing.  He was a coward to drag his feet on addressing it but the second she confronted him with "look at all the things you made me do" include following him after he led her on in NY (he didn't), hiding in the bathroom twice while he had sex with his girlfriends, running over an ex's cat and essentially exposing her stalker tendencies, I get why he meets the idea of apologizing with a "fuck no!"  

I would not apologize to my stalker even if I technically did something wrong.  Just wouldn't. I'd have no interest in smoothing things over after learning about the things he/she had done even before I did my shitty thing. I wouldn't feel bad about it. I'd feel relieved that my crappy thing actually saved me.

 

I agree, for the most part. Josh is not the villain here; Rebecca is. She stalked him from New York. She slept with his friend. Then, when she was dating said friend, she slept with Josh. She manipulated his family. She destroyed his relationship (and engagement). She pushed him into getting married sooner than he wanted.

Maybe he should have manned up and talked to her the day of the wedding, but would that have changed any of Rebecca's actions? Doubtful. She still would have played the aggrieved victim out for revenge.

When Josh sang in the church and says something about Aladdin -- was a meta joke about Vincent Rodriguez and his stage career? I thought he had played Aladdin on Broadway, but I don't see that credit. 

[Snarklepuss]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Josh does deserve to feel bad for what he did to Rebecca, but Rebecca certainly is in the wrong for her months of stalking and attempts at manipulating Joshes life. Really, Josh leaving Rebecca was the right call, and maybe if Rebecca hadn't moved the wedding to so soon, he would have done it earlier, BUT the way he did it was the worst, most selfish, cowardly way possible. Especially not getting in touch with her for two weeks afterwards. Thats pretty inexcusable. I dont think Josh is a totally irredeemable asshole, he usually means well, but the guy is rather dim, and refuses to actually deal with his problems, going for quick fixes and avoidance instead. As someone else mentioned, its a lot like Rebecca, actually. Instead of dealing with real life, they both try to focus on other things instead, even when its harmful to themselves or others. I do think they'll deal with Rebecca's problems though. The show has done a good job in the past at addressing others issues I've had with the show.

ITA.  Rebecca's craziness should not play down Josh's own dysfunctions.  And he has them for sure.  He is juvenile and lacks even the most basic self awareness, to the point where he doesn't have even a clue of what motivates him.  His not knowing what it involves to become a priest and then being as dumb as a box and unable to handle it is just one case in point, let alone copping out and leaving her at the altar.  Is he as crazy as Rebecca?  No, but he's pretty darned messed up.

I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere but Rachel's lost a significant amount of weight between seasons.  She's looking rather svelte and it becomes her.  It makes the scenes between her and Nathaniel that much hotter.  I too like them together and the way the show is writing his character.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved Josh's song and dance! He finally got to do a solo that wasn't autotuned or boy band! Don't get me wrong. I loved the four Josh Chan boy band song from S1 but he I loved that he got to show us some range in his singing and dancing. I also loved that when Hector and White Josh found out that Josh hadn't spoken to Rebecca since he left her at the altar, they both told him he had fucked up. They don't even like Rebecca and they know that he did her wrong!

The Fosse dance was awesome - hot AND hilarious!

Ha, the Empty Chairs at Empty Tables inspired song was hilarious. Sorry, Tim, I can't feel sorry for you (even though I also agree with Paula that his wife should have said something to him during their eleven years together). Maybe he should have paid more attention to When Harry Met Sally:

 

8 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

When Josh sang in the church and says something about Aladdin -- was a meta joke about Vincent Rodriguez and his stage career? I thought he had played Aladdin on Broadway, but I don't see that credit. 

Nope, he never played Aladdin, on or off Broadway. He was in The Hunchback of Notre Dame when it premiered at the La Jolla Playhouse, the off Broadway production of Here Lies Love at The Public Theatre, the national tour of Anything Goes, the Pippin revival at the Goodspeed, the national tour of Xanadu, and Irving Berlin's White Christmas when it premiered at the Curran in San Francisco and then went to Boston. Adam Jacobs played Aladdin on Broadway when it premiered in 2014 and left the production earlier this year (he is now doing the national tour). His understudy replaced him until Telly Leung joined the cast in June.

[Rinaldo]

The Aladdin reference was just a regular joke, not a meta one. The list of actors who've played Aladdin onstage remains a very short one, as Adam Jacobs played it from the original tryouts through just last spring. And to annotate @ElectricBoogaloo's excellent list of VR3's credits, all those shows cast him in the ensemble (sometimes understudying roles, notably in Here Lies Love, or occasionally getting a short pull-from-the-chorus part, as in Anything Goes). Getting a leading role in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend represents a big leap up in his career status.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My issue with Josh is that regardless of Rebecca's behavior before the wedding, he left her at the altar and then didn't even have the nerve to tell her to her face that he wasn't going to marry her. He just left and hasn't communicated with her in any way since then. He could have expressed his concerns before the day of the wedding. He could have shown up to the church and told Rebecca he was calling off the wedding. He could have called her afterward to apologize. He did none of those things. He just disappeared because he doesn't want to face the consequences of his actions.

On top of that he wants to be the good guy in all of this so he doesn't want to take any of the blame for what HE did. That's why he was so stoked when Rebecca blurted out all the things she had done - now he sees himself as the victim in all of this so as far as he's concerned, leaving her at the altar was totally justified and he's now off the hook for anything bad that happened.

Believe me, I'm not saying that Rebecca's stalker behavior is okay. That's all on her (contrary to her belief that Josh MADE her do all the things she listed in her song). But she doesn't bear all the blame for what happened. Just because one person does wrong doesn't mean the other person is 100% right. They both made bad choices at one time or another. But Josh wants to play the role of the good guy in this. He even told White Josh and Hector that the reason he is becoming a priest is because he's "a good person." A good person doesn't abandon their fiancé on their wedding day and then hide/avoid communication with the person they just humiliated in front of all their friends and family.

[DianeDobbler]

I DID hear the "Sexy Getting Ready Song" refrain when Rebecca received the box of clothing from Nathaniel. I love the actor (Scott Michael Thomas) but I'm not feeling the character this season the way I did last season (the Nathaniel character). I think Josh is hiding from his guilt and his denial by focusing on becoming a priest, albeit I think the fact that the denial and guilt exists should be apparent a bit more.  And p.s., I love the compassionate but eye-rolling reactions of the priest to Josh's romanticism of religious life. And while what he did was shitty, the lead up to the wedding was a complete train wreck - a railroad job by Rebecca, to extend the metaphor. Josh is not someone who confronts a lot - he lets things happen to him. The fact that he actually broke up with Rebecca that time she told him she was pregnant, got manic about having his baby, then switched to proposing period sex was kind of an outlier for him - I guess it was so OTT he legitimately freaked out enough to actually break up that time, instead of waiting to be broken up with.

 

I can't particularly think of him as extra awful within the universe of the show, as I could see Rebecca doing the same  - abandoning someone at the altar, hiding out in some role playing narrative situation that justifies herself to herself, feeling a bit guilty about not communicating with the person ("I know, I know!") but not enough to actually get around to it. I do think the script is a bit flawed in not alluding to everything that led up to Josh's decision to run away to the seminary. He was freaked out by Rebecca again - the bizarre wedding plans that had nothing to do with either Rebecca or him, the mania in her that resurfaced, including moving the wedding date up by two years, her calling him "Robert", her obsession over her dad. But I suppose the story he tells himself isn't that he was fleeing in terror from his wedding, but that he'd suddenly discovered a calling to religious life. I think he and Rebecca are lot alike, or at least two sides of the same coin. He avoids his problems by literally avoiding his problems, Rebecca avoids her problems via manufactured drama.

 And in any event, Rebecca has done a lot of bad things to people, and then rationalized it in hindsight. There's also this - as humiliating as it may have felt, I don't think anybody at that wedding was comfortable with Rebecca's motivations and behavior leading up to it. Her saying "He humiliated me!" is surface-y true, but she's hiding behind it. That's not the real issue. She's mad because that wedding was the panacea that would cure all of her problems (as her song that morning showed), but she was full of anxiety, and bug-eyed with mania even before Josh fled. I think she'd be raging just as much if he came up and told her the wedding was off, or if he'd spoken to her afterward. Nothing he could have said would have made her reaction or her feelings better or different. You know how things are true on paper but not true emotionally? I don't think she's mad that he ran away and left her. She'd have been just as angry if he'd told her to her face. "Robert" told her to her face, and she burned his house down. And let's not forget Greg (and I'm no fan of Greg, nor of the actor who played him) also intended to leave town without informing her. She had too much pull on him, so he had to do it that way. I mean, they were friends if nothing else, so he should have told her, but he didn't in order to protect himself. Very possibly if Josh had tried to speak to Rebecca face to face, she would have railroaded him back to getting married. I think once the leaving her at the altar was done, no communication from him would have helped, as she was angry at the lost wedding itself. I'm not giving Josh credit for knowing any of this, but I think his actions are absolutely par for the course with CEG, including Rebecca's actions.

I don't think Paula forgetting what she told Tim about orgasms signals anything about her own life. In the premiere she and her husband ended up having satisfying sex. I just think Paula is very quick, very smart, and told Tim that because what she overheard made the situation super obvious to her, but she forgot about it soon afterwards because she has more important stuff going on in her life.

If this show had a romantic end game I could see Rebecca and Josh, but most especially Rebecca and Trent. I remember when they were both ragging on someone who went to Cornell. Trent obviously has some sort of social dysfunction, but he IS smart, has a similar educational background, and a risk-taker the way she is. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

I love the compassionate but eye-rolling reactions of the priest to Josh's romanticism of religious life.

He called Josh a "Maria." Hee.

[Mockingbird]

Luridness rhymed with cock...suredness. Oh, show. I love you. 

[MrsR]

The Holy Ghost sounded an awful lot like Santino.  Maybe he agreed to do a voice over.

Great songs this week.

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

He called Josh a "Maria." Hee.

How do you solve a problem like Maria??

[dubbel zout]

How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?

[SmithW6079]

3 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

How do you solve a problem like Maria??

You marry her to an older sea captain. Josh needs a daddy. ?

[Eeksquire]

After thinking about this for a couple of days, I wonder if the envelope of information that Trent gave Josh (and that he tossed before leaving Rebecca at the altar) won't be some kind of Chekhov's gun this season - I feel like bringing Trent back to do just the one thing and have it be immediately discarded is not really what this show does.  I could see the show waiting a looong time before paying that off, but still: that envelope is coming back somehow.

[dubbel zout]

I think the envelope is coming back. We had that very clear shot of Josh holding it. This show doesn't drop too many loose ends.

[alrightokay]

54 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the envelope is coming back. We had that very clear shot of Josh holding it. This show doesn't drop too many loose ends.

Speaking of loose ends--is Paula still in law school?  Is she still friends with Sunil?  For some reason, I remember Sunil saying he had an asshole fratboy roommate in college who made fun of him for doing musical theater.  And then in the second part of S2, Nathaniel said he knew about Harry Potter because he had a weird theater geek roommate in college.  I've always wondered if the show would tie those threads together....  

I also miss Father Brah; I hope he shows up soon to help Father Rodrigo solve his "Maria" problem.  :)

[DianeDobbler]

I don't think the envelope is a Chekhov's gun. It probably just contains the Robert details. What Rebecca has told Josh about how she's behaved vis a vis him, Josh, is plenty. If they throw in that she had a nervous breakdown after burning her beau's house down when her married college professor/beau rejected her, it's not going to exactly be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Josh was already in full cold feet, backing out mode before Trent ever showed up. I think it's to Josh's credit that he never looked at Trent's data to find an external excuse to do what he wanted to do (call off the wedding). Instead he followed what probably felt to him like an authentic excuse - he had a priestly calling due to all his tete a tetes w/Father Bra.

I believe the entire point of Trent having that dossier of Rebecca's background was for Josh to not go through with the wedding WITHOUT reading any of it. IOW, it was a red herring, nothing more. 

As poorly and immaturely as Josh has behaved, I think it would reflect much worse on him if he'd actually married Rebecca given everything that led up to the wedding. At the point Rebecca had set the date for two week's hence, I think all of her girlfriends, even, who are on her side, were purely humoring and enabling her, just getting through it. She was absolutely batshit during that time, but nobody had the stones or the authority to call it.

I don't think it's a real spoiler, but 

Spoiler

we've been told that this season Rebecca will be diagnosed. It's the DSM, which is constantly being revised and re-thought, but still, I'm sure the diagnosis will incorporate Trent's dossier, a/k/a the Robert story.

1

1

Rebecca actually reminds me of a very good friend of mine, particularly in her sexual authority and lack of inhibition, so to speak. One of the most striking moves Rebecca made in "Strip away my conscience" was when she did a shoulder shimmy, shaking her boobs, and she never broke eye-contact during the entire number. There is nothing coy about her when she gets like this - it's  almost B movie femme fatale what she does, and my friend was the same way. When I'd see her operate in clubs, or with a boyfriend she was mad at, it was almost cartoonish, just as Rebecca is. She went to all kinds of therapy, because she had a lot of the other Rebecca type symptoms  - a propensity for drama, personalizing everything, coming up with a new scheme or plan or storyline, etc., externalizing everything, acting out sexually, especially, even though her core issues, IMO, weren't especially sexual. She drank the way Rebecca drank, slamming that whiskey glass on the table. What happened is the older she got, the more she calmed down, til in her mid-thirties she was hardly a shadow of how she'd been. I think therapy helped, but I also suspect she had a frontal lobe maturity thing that needed time to settle down. I keep reading that for men, the frontal lobe doesn't settle down til after 24, but with her, it was every year after 24, she got calmer, even though it was hit and miss w/therapists. So I guess I'm very curious what Rebecca's deal will turn out to be. I'm sure the show has researched it very thoroughly. I don't think she's borderline or narcissist - if anything she is loaded with empathy. So I'm really interested.

Edited October 23, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[Snarklepuss]

23 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

On top of that he wants to be the good guy in all of this so he doesn't want to take any of the blame for what HE did. That's why he was so stoked when Rebecca blurted out all the things she had done - now he sees himself as the victim in all of this so as far as he's concerned, leaving her at the altar was totally justified and he's now off the hook for anything bad that happened.

Believe me, I'm not saying that Rebecca's stalker behavior is okay. That's all on her (contrary to her belief that Josh MADE her do all the things she listed in her song). But she doesn't bear all the blame for what happened. Just because one person does wrong doesn't mean the other person is 100% right. They both made bad choices at one time or another. But Josh wants to play the role of the good guy in this. He even told White Josh and Hector that the reason he is becoming a priest is because he's "a good person." A good person doesn't abandon their fiancé on their wedding day and then hide/avoid communication with the person they just humiliated in front of all their friends and family.

Well, that's the thing.  He wanted to bail on Rebecca and subconsciously latched onto the priest thing to reconfirm for himself that he's still a good guy.  To him, the priest excuse means he doesn't have to face or take responsibility for not being as good as he wants to believe he is.  It's all an attempt to hold on to his image of himself as the good guy.  The only problem is it isn't going to work and he's eventually going to have to face that what he did was wrong, especially if Rebecca and his friends keep reminding him of it.  Leaving anyone at the altar is never justified no matter the circumstances (as in what they did to you, how crazy you think they are, etc.).

Edited October 23, 2017 by Snarklepuss

[dubbel zout]

It's a good thing they didn't get married, but Rebecca's terrible behavior doesn't excuse or negate Josh's terrible behavior.