These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

Just because the actors suck at imitation doesn't mean anything. For example I found the various actors for Alistair all very consistent. So it can be done. Gen was nothing like Cassidy when it came to Ruby but Gen can't act. Jared doing his own thing or Misha hamming it up, that's on the actors not on what they should actually be like. Jared should imitate Emily if it's going to be an actual possession. Anything else is just crappy acting.

I truly don`t think it will be a possession in the sense that the word would imply. It`s obvious from the trailers we`ve gotten and the clips that still have to happen as well as even from the interviews that Sam will be Sam for the episodes.

When Jared said that at the end "if we`re dead or alive or Amara possesses me or whatever the situation is", it is either him throwing out the most random thing in the history of ever - how in all the world would he readily name this as a scenario for Sam at the end of the show? - or he just meant to imply that somehow Sam becomes "the darkness" at the end on some level. 

Will it make any kind of logical sense in a lore-building way? Of course not. But Dabbernatural isn`t big on making sense.

Not to mention he will have honestly given away the ending of his character, if not the show, before Season 15 even aired because that was said at Comic Con last year. 

When they were told the ending in rough terms, I`m pretty sure it was understood that they couldn`t outright say it. Which is why I always thought it was a Freudian slip on Jared`s part. OR it truly was random nonsense. Which, the latter I can`t even comprehend how that works. Who would come up with such an utterly specific scenario (that never happened on the show) and throws it out as a possibility for Sam`s ending?   

Edited October 24, 2020 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, Smad said:

Just because the actors suck at imitation doesn't mean anything. For example I found the various actors for Alistair all very consistent. So it can be done. Gen was nothing like Cassidy when it came to Ruby but Gen can't act. Jared doing his own thing or Misha hamming it up, that's on the actors not on what they should actually be like. Jared should imitate Emily if it's going to be an actual possession. Anything else is just crappy acting.

I disagree. They possess a living being, with vocal chords and a lifetime of sense memory. They should indeed mimic the attitude of the the demon, but not necessarily the physicality. Rick Springfield's Lucifer is a good example. Or the maid that Ruby possessed temporarily in 4x09.

ETA: I think @Aeryn13 is right, because there has never been any indication that Chuck or Amara are possessing anyone. Amara, especially, since she, like Jack, aged rapidly into a grown human form if her own. Their true forms were actual light and darkness in 11x20. There is no need for another body except as a disguise, in which case Jared would be 'acting' as Sam anyway, so a power transfer shouldn't change anything.

Edited October 24, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

If you slow down the beginning of this first trailer, you can see them all still wearing the clothes from the next episode so I guess Chuck coming to the bunker will be the "cliffhanger". And apparently something is wrong with Jackie-poo.

In that case, Amara is probably gonna visit in the beginning. 

Also, from this trailer and the au revoir one Dean and Sam will come to fisticuffs. Up to what looks like Dean pulling a gun even. Great, here comes the bus again. Then Sam will have the bloody nose for the "my whole life, you`ve kept me safe" scene. More of the bus.   

[Terese]

On 10/24/2020 at 11:51 AM, Smad said:

Just because the actors suck at imitation doesn't mean anything. For example I found the various actors for Alistair all very consistent. So it can be done. Gen was nothing like Cassidy when it came to Ruby but Gen can't act. Jared doing his own thing or Misha hamming it up, that's on the actors not on what they should actually be like. Jared should imitate Emily if it's going to be an actual possession. Anything else is just crappy acting.

I thought Jared's portrayal of Lucifer was perfect. He was condescending and utterly chilling in his confidence. We hadn't really seen Mark Pelligrino as Lucifer prior to The End. So, there was nothing to imitate, really.

According to Eric Kripke in the DVD commentary, he greatly admired Gen's interpretation of a more gentle and somewhat seductive character. He said it was necessary to lure Jared. The first interpretation of Ruby was too sarcastic etc. to be believable.

[Terese]

How Jared and Jensen responded to the End, publically, is not necessarily compatible with how they would respond privately. According to Jensen, he spent two weeks struggling, while discussing it with many. I'm sure this got back to the powers that be. Concerned that Jensen's struggles and questions may become public, he was asked(told) to troubleshoot any potential problems that may arise. By the time Jared announced his pleasure with the ending, Jensen began praising it as well. 

As the show is fundamentally different in theme, tone, character, and so forth, any ending previously envisioned by either actor may no longer be compatible with how things now are.

This final season has placed both Sam and Dean in a hamster wheel, largely at the mercy of cosmic beings well above their paygrade. A previously conceived ending, prior to the degradation of their characters, may have been blaze of glory while THEY had agency and self-direction. Now, as pawns on a hamster wheel, simply getting off that wheel becomes the new standard of a lowered bar, that brings satisfaction. Sam and Dean simply get to stop being victims. The story now insists that is what they are and have always been. Sadly, any ending that reverts them back to hero status operating on bravery, conscience, greater good in hunting things and saving people is lost. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Terese

[Casseiopeia]

So the line up of writers for the last 4 episodes...

Meredith Glynn  Unity-I'm guessing by the end of the episode everyone will be back on board

Robert Berens    Despair-I'm guessing Castiel dies

Brad/Eugenie     Season Finale-Chuck lives or dies, Jack lives or dies, the Winchesters live or die I'm sure it will be very              confusing but the season will finally be over.

Dabb     Series Finale-sadly the series will finally be over and Jensen and Jared will spend many conventions  trying to explain what just happened.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Brad/Eugenie will write a better script than Dabb.  Glynn or Berens they seem to be on par with each other but I will also guess that whatever they write will be negated by the Duo.  Dabb gave himself the perfect out by deconstructing the show so no one is going to understand what's happening or care by the end.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Casseiopeia

[Terese]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So the line up of writers for the last 4 episodes...

Meredith Glynn  Unity-I'm guessing by the end of the episode everyone will be back on board

Robert Berens    Despair-I'm guessing Castiel dies

Brad/Eugenie     Season Finale-Chuck lives or dies, Jack lives or dies, the Winchesters live or die I'm sure it will be very              confusing but the season will finally be over.

Dabb     Series Finale-sadly the series will finally be over and Jensen and Jared will spend many conventions  trying to explain what just happened.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Brad/Eugenie will write a better script than Dabb.  Glynn or Berens they seem to be on par with each other but I will also guess that whatever they write will be negated by the Duo.  Dabb gave himself the perfect out by deconstructing the show so no one is going to understand what's happening or care by the end.

Do you think any of the writers will remember that Sam and Dean are heroes who spent their lives sacrificing for the greater good?  Because Sam who shot God over Jack,  knowing if successful, the world would end, and Dean not giving a damn about anything but his revenge and killing Chuck, asking no questions which could also end the world, is not who they are. 

[BabySpinach]

16 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Robert Berens    Despair-I'm guessing Castiel dies

Oh joy, Berens giving his obvious fave Cas a martyrdom tongue-bath while having consistently written him as an obnoxious, unrepentant asshole in previous eps. Wonder if Dean will fall to his knees again and weep mightily for the pure, perfect angel who was too good for him? Maybe denigrate himself some more as the cherry on top? 🤢

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Oh joy, Berens giving his obvious fave Cas a martyrdom tongue-bath while having consistently written him as an obnoxious, unrepentant asshole in previous eps. Wonder if Dean will fall to his knees again and weep mightily for the pure, perfect angel who was too good for him? Maybe denigrate himself some more as the cherry on top? 🤢

I guess that was the Dean crying scene we saw in the promo's before the last 7 episodes aired.

6 minutes ago, Terese said:

Do you think any of the writers will remember that Sam and Dean are heroes who spent their lives sacrificing for the greater good?  Because Sam who shot God over Jack,  knowing if successful, the world would end, and Dean not giving a damn about anything but his revenge and killing Chuck, asking no questions which could also end the world, is not who they are. 

Details details details....none of these writers sweat the "small" stuff.   It's all about getting from A to B.....or Z.

[Terese]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I guess that was the Dean crying scene we saw in the promo's before the last 7 episodes aired.

Details details details....none of these writers sweat the "small" stuff.   It's all about getting from A to B.....or Z.

Yes, I guess they truly are hamsters and puppets, or whatever synonyms apply to Sam and Dean with respect to moving along the idiotic plot.

[ahrtee]

Does anyone think that Dabb's vision of Jack came from "turn up your noses at Wayward Sisters, will you?  I'll give you something 100 times worse...and you'll *have* to watch it if you ever want to see Sam and Dean again."  

[Terese]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Does anyone think that Dabb's vision of Jack came from "turn up your noses at Wayward Sisters, will you?  I'll give you something 100 times worse...and you'll *have* to watch it if you ever want to see Sam and Dean again."  

Yes. This entire season is motivated by revenge, petty "cruel and capricious" writers are gods, actors are puppets and hamsters, viewers will still watch, revenge.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Does anyone think that Dabb's vision of Jack came from "turn up your noses at Wayward Sisters, will you?  I'll give you something 100 times worse...and you'll *have* to watch it if you ever want to see Sam and Dean again."  

Taking to the B vs J thread

Edited October 26, 2020 by Myrelle
wrong thread

[Aeryn13]

7 hours ago, Terese said:

I thought Jared's portrayal of Lucifer was perfect. He was condescending and utterly chilling in his confidence. We hadn't really seen Mark Pelligrino as Lucifer prior to The End. So, there was nothing to imitate, really.

According to Eric Kripke in the DVD commentary, he greatly admired Gen's interpretation of a more gentle and somewhat seductive character. He said it was necessary to lure Jared. The first interpretation of Ruby was too sarcastic etc. to be believable.

Kripke can declare his admiration all he wants, I thought she was godawful as an actress.

[Terese]

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Kripke can declare his admiration all he wants, I thought she was godawful as an actress.

Well, perhaps. He was just talking about her ability to interpret Ruby differently. I don't remember what I thought of her acting. I think I probably don't focus on that. Unless it's obvious acting. I never cared for Meryl Streep, for example, because I was always aware of her acting. 

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So the line up of writers for the last 4 episodes...

Meredith Glynn  Unity-I'm guessing by the end of the episode everyone will be back on board

Robert Berens    Despair-I'm guessing Castiel dies

Brad/Eugenie     Season Finale-Chuck lives or dies, Jack lives or dies, the Winchesters live or die I'm sure it will be very              confusing but the season will finally be over.

Dabb     Series Finale-sadly the series will finally be over and Jensen and Jared will spend many conventions  trying to explain what just happened.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Brad/Eugenie will write a better script than Dabb.  Glynn or Berens they seem to be on par with each other but I will also guess that whatever they write will be negated by the Duo.  Dabb gave himself the perfect out by deconstructing the show so no one is going to understand what's happening or care by the end.

Response Taken to spoilers with speculation 

[PAForrest]

10 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So the line up of writers for the last 4 episodes...

Meredith Glynn  Unity-I'm guessing by the end of the episode everyone will be back on board

Robert Berens    Despair-I'm guessing Castiel dies

Brad/Eugenie     Season Finale-Chuck lives or dies, Jack lives or dies, the Winchesters live or die I'm sure it will be very              confusing but the season will finally be over.

Dabb     Series Finale-sadly the series will finally be over and Jensen and Jared will spend many conventions  trying to explain what just happened.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Brad/Eugenie will write a better script than Dabb.  Glynn or Berens they seem to be on par with each other but I will also guess that whatever they write will be negated by the Duo.  Dabb gave himself the perfect out by deconstructing the show so no one is going to understand what's happening or care by the end.

The one upside to the Duo is that they don't actually hate the two leads, never have, don't have any reason to. Doesn't mean they can write them well, but they do surprise us at times - like the episode before the COVID hiatus. I think that was theirs (seriously I can't recall the titles anymore), and it was pretty good for this season. Low ass bar, admittedly, but still better than most of the season. So you could be right - obviously we'll know soon enough.

Berens' episode is going to be a complete shitshow for Dean, that's a given. Dean fans should probably go into it having already finished a day-long drinking game before the "previously" starts.

At this point I think it's good to remind everyone that after they announced the show was ending, Jensen came right out and said he wanted Kripke and some of the other original writers - or ANY writers from the past - to come back and write some scripts. Obviously that wasn't going to happen for a number of reasons, contracts being the main sticking point. But you know Jensen didn't say that out of nostalgia - he desperately wanted the final season to go out on a high, and he knew fully well, better than anyone, that this current crop of producers couldn't and wouldn't deliver. And he was right. Of course, his just saying that very likely only pissed off Drabb et. al. even more. And now we are where we are - and Jensen is floating the idea of a 6-episode fix-it.

I'm just saying.

[Smad]

14 hours ago, Terese said:

According to Eric Kripke in the DVD commentary, he greatly admired Gen's interpretation of a more gentle and somewhat seductive character. He said it was necessary to lure Jared. The first interpretation of Ruby was too sarcastic etc. to be believable.

 

6 hours ago, Terese said:

Well, perhaps. He was just talking about her ability to interpret Ruby differently. I don't remember what I thought of her acting. I think I probably don't focus on that. Unless it's obvious acting. I never cared for Meryl Streep, for example, because I was always aware of her acting. 

Doesn't matter what Kripke thinks in this case. It's also a sign of a crappy writer/storyteller who doesn't seem to get it. You can't change a character in the middle of the story for no reason. Ruby since her first appearance had the same motivation and goal, a vessel change wouldn't change that. If Kripke liked second Ruby more in terms of behavior he should have written first Ruby like that from the start. Because it's the same damn character. And even if he liked Gen's interpretation (aka inability to copy Cassidy), she still sucked at acting it. Other than Jared/Sam and some show sycophants, no one liked Gen's Ruby and not because she was evil.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, Terese said:

According to Eric Kripke in the DVD commentary, he greatly admired Gen's interpretation of a more gentle and somewhat seductive character. He said it was necessary to lure Jared. The first interpretation of Ruby was too sarcastic etc. to be believable.

Heheh. I assume this is probably a typo, but I bet it isn't far from the truth. Except when she was making goo-goo eyes at Jared, it mostly looked like she was reading cue-cards over people's shoulders.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Heheh. I assume this is probably a typo, but I bet it isn't far from the truth

It's actually not.  Ruby was supposed to body hop a lot in s4 but they kept Gen because of her developing relationship with Jared.

[tessathereaper]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Kripke can declare his admiration all he wants, I thought she was godawful as an actress.

Oh god yes. I wasn't sure about Katie at first but I came to like her within a couple episodes but Gen ugh. But it tells you they had no real plan for the next season because I'm pretty sure they simply could have told Katie to soften it up if they were planning on having Ruby and Sam hook up next season.  

As it is it just made Sam look ever stupider than he did, like what you really think a demon had a sudden personality change because you are just...so hot and awesome?

[Smad]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It's actually not.  Ruby was supposed to body hop a lot in s4 but they kept Gen because of her developing relationship with Jared.

I wish they had done that. I still remember the one episode where Ruby had to hop vessels for 2 min in a motel to tell the guys it was surrounded by demons. The black actress who played the maid inhabited by Ruby was awesome. Her attitude and the way she talked reminded me so much of Cassidy's Ruby that I actually celebrated out loud. I wanted to keep HER. She was more entertaining in those 2 min than Gen during her entire run.

Keeping Gen was not necessary for her relationship with Jared, that's literally what off-camera time is for. But then this show has never been above nepotism.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The one upside to the Duo is that they don't actually hate the two leads, never have, don't have any reason to. Doesn't mean they can write them well, but they do surprise us at times - like the episode before the COVID hiatus. I think that was theirs (seriously I can't recall the titles anymore), and it was pretty good for this season. Low ass bar, admittedly, but still better than most of the season. So you could be right - obviously we'll know soon enough.

Berens' episode is going to be a complete shitshow for Dean, that's a given. Dean fans should probably go into it having already finished a day-long drinking game before the "previously" starts.

At this point I think it's good to remind everyone that after they announced the show was ending, Jensen came right out and said he wanted Kripke and some of the other original writers - or ANY writers from the past - to come back and write some scripts. Obviously that wasn't going to happen for a number of reasons, contracts being the main sticking point. But you know Jensen didn't say that out of nostalgia - he desperately wanted the final season to go out on a high, and he knew fully well, better than anyone, that this current crop of producers couldn't and wouldn't deliver. And he was right. Of course, his just saying that very likely only pissed off Drabb et. al. even more. And now we are where we are - and Jensen is floating the idea of a 6-episode fix-it.

I'm just saying.

Where did Hensen float the idea of a 6 episode fix?

Paley spiel seems pro finales and ending... in professional speak.

5 hours ago, PAForrest said:

The one upside to the Duo is that they don't actually hate the two leads, never have, don't have any reason to. Doesn't mean they can write them well, but they do surprise us at times - like the episode before the COVID hiatus. I think that was theirs (seriously I can't recall the titles anymore), and it was pretty good for this season. Low ass bar, admittedly, but still better than most of the season. So you could be right - obviously we'll know soon enough.

Berens' episode is going to be a complete shitshow for Dean, that's a given. Dean fans should probably go into it having already finished a day-long drinking game before the "previously" starts.

At this point I think it's good to remind everyone that after they announced the show was ending, Jensen came right out and said he wanted Kripke and some of the other original writers - or ANY writers from the past - to come back and write some scripts. Obviously that wasn't going to happen for a number of reasons, contracts being the main sticking point. But you know Jensen didn't say that out of nostalgia - he desperately wanted the final season to go out on a high, and he knew fully well, better than anyone, that this current crop of producers couldn't and wouldn't deliver. And he was right. Of course, his just saying that very likely only pissed off Drabb et. al. even more. And now we are where we are - and Jensen is floating the idea of a 6-episode fix-it.

I'm just saying.

Dean = dumb brawn + mistakes + toxic anger

Sam = super speshul + super smart + A+++ 1+++

Yeah... they don't actually hate the leads. They have just pidgeon holes them into bullets that maybe existed in the first iteration of Kripke's script.

[Aeryn13]

12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Where did Hensen float the idea of a 6 episode fix?

Paley spiel seems pro finales and ending... in professional speak.

Dean = dumb brawn + mistakes + toxic anger

Sam = super speshul + super smart + A+++ 1+++

Yeah... they don't actually hate the leads. They have just pidgeon holes them into bullets that maybe existed in the first iteration of Kripke's script.

He mentioned it in several interviews now as a possibility of something that may happen in 5 or 6 years, not as a concrete plan. Though with his new production company, there may be more validity to it if he is really and truly interested (and remains that way in a couple years).

While your character outline is not wrong, the worst offenders of that are Badd, Berens and Perez. The Nep Duo is so-so but they can write decent Dean if the mood strikes. Better them do the Season Finale and God conclusion than Berens or Badd.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/24/2020 at 3:18 AM, Aeryn13 said:

You can see them Here

Why are they all of Jack

[Terese]

8 hours ago, Smad said:

 

Doesn't matter what Kripke thinks in this case. It's also a sign of a crappy writer/storyteller who doesn't seem to get it. You can't change a character in the middle of the story for no reason. Ruby since her first appearance had the same motivation and goal, a vessel change wouldn't change that. If Kripke liked second Ruby more in terms of behavior he should have written first Ruby like that from the start. Because it's the same damn character. And even if he liked Gen's interpretation (aka inability to copy Cassidy), she still sucked at acting it. Other than Jared/Sam and some show sycophants, no one liked Gen's Ruby and not because she was evil.

He didn't want her to copy Cassidy. Maybe trace personality of the vessel alters the personality of the demon in some manner. In any case, I'm not a sycophant or no one; I thought she was fine. 

[PAForrest]

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He mentioned it in several interviews now as a possibility of something that may happen in 5 or 6 years, not as a concrete plan. Though with his new production company, there may be more validity to it if he is really and truly interested (and remains that way in a couple years).

While your character outline is not wrong, the worst offenders of that are Badd, Berens and Perez. The Nep Duo is so-so but they can write decent Dean if the mood strikes. Better them do the Season Finale and God conclusion than Berens or Badd.  

There have been so many skype/zoom meetings in the last month, I can't recall which was what anymore. It might have been the Rosenbaum podcast, but again, they're all blurring together.

I actually took notice of it because it was a more concrete idea than I expected to hear - specifically "6 episodes" on a "streaming" platform. He put a little more thought into it than the usual hand-waved, 'sure, we'll get together sometime and do something,' answer.  After the Ackles' production deal came to light, it made a little more sense. The streaming platform he's thinking of would be HBOMax (Warner Brothers), and it may have even been part of the deal pitch.

I'm not saying it will really happen - it depends on where the guys' careers take them after this. Personally I hope Jensen is simply too busy to put it together. OTOH, if he and Jared do decide in two or three years that it's something they want to do, this time Jensen will have control if it's done under the umbrella of his production company.

Edited October 27, 2020 by PAForrest

[shoetingstar]

On 10/26/2020 at 12:48 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Where did Hensen float the idea of a 6 episode fix?

Paley spiel seems pro finales and ending... in professional speak.

Dean = dumb brawn + mistakes + toxic anger

Sam = super speshul + super smart + A+++ 1+++

Yeah... they don't actually hate the leads. They have just pidgeon holes them into bullets that maybe existed in the first iteration of Kripke's script.

Ironically, they wrote Season One's Route 666 (which I think is no longer as hated at was before) where we got to see Dean in another light -romantic side. The fact that he dated someone, not just a one-night stand. The fact that he couldn't lie to Cassie, while Sam easily lied to Jessica (understandably) for a year. This was a huge revelation for the character at the time. Basically, he could & did want a longer relationship but was hurt. Another sacrifice to the family business. Both brothers came off well in that episode in the end. Sam was pissy when he found out Dean's secret but ended up fangirling over them lol. 

Also in light of Get Out, Watchmen and Lovecraft Country, mixing horror with racism elements. I think it was ahead of itself a bit. (though there are some problems, the timeline is an absolute mess. I seriously want a cut of the episode that takes Cassie's Mama's 10 mins over-acting and over-crying out. Feels like 10 years and I'm embarrassed for everyone in the scene lol. I FF through that and its a shame because she's giving the historical racism part of it.)

Maybe the Kripke hate afterwards, turned them bitter lol. (apparently they did him a favor, because the original concept had to be scrapped).

And re: Ruby and Gen. Gen's acting was very stiff. Definitely a case of attractiveness winning over skill. I really like Katie's Ruby once she got into it.

Edited October 28, 2020 by shoetingstar

[Terese]

1 hour ago, shoetingstar said:

Ironically, they wrote Season One's Route 666 (which I think is no longer as hated at was before) where we got to see Dean in another light -romantic side. The fact that he dated someone, not just a one-night stand. The fact that he couldn't lie to Cassie, while Sam easily lied to Jessica (understandably) for a year. This was a huge revelation for the character at the time. Basically, he could & did want a longer relationship but was hurt. Another sacrifice to the family business. Both brothers came off well in that episode in the end. Sam was pissy when he found out Dean's secret but ended up fangirling over them lol. 

Also in light of Get Out, Watchmen and Lovecraft Country, mixing horror with racism elements. I think it was ahead of itself a bit. (though there are some problems, the timeline is an absolute mess. I seriously want a cut of the episode that takes Cassie's Mama's 10 mins over-acting and over-crying out. Feels like 10 years and I'm embarrassed for everyone in the scene lol. I FF through that and its a shame because she's giving the historical racism part of it.)

Maybe the Kripke hate afterwards, turned them bitter lol. (apparently they did him a favor, because the original concept had to be scrapped).

And re: Ruby and Gen. Gen's acting was very stiff. Definitely a case of attractiveness winning over skill. I really like Katie's Ruby once she got into it.

Poor Gen. For me, 1st Ruby was too much like 1st Meg. All the biting quick witted sarcasm came off as just bitchy. And that's fine, except they were demons. I guess I felt demons should be more threatening, menacing  or tempting. I can't see Sam ever falling prey to 1st Ruby or Team Free Will ever trusting that 1st Meg had changed. Gen's Ruby appeared softer, subtle and more sincere, which was a much better hook then brash sarcasm. 

I never rewatch Route 666, although was vaguely disappointed that Dean returned to Lisa instead of Cassie. 

[shoetingstar]

36 minutes ago, Terese said:

Poor Gen. For me, 1st Ruby was too much like 1st Meg. All the biting quick witted sarcasm came off as just bitchy. And that's fine, except they were demons. I guess I felt demons should be more threatening, menacing  or tempting. I can't see Sam ever falling prey to 1st Ruby or Team Free Will ever trusting that 1st Meg had changed. Gen's Ruby appeared softer, subtle and more sincere, which was a much better hook then brash sarcasm. 

I never rewatch Route 666, although was vaguely disappointed that Dean returned to Lisa instead of Cassie. 

It's worth a view just have the FF button ready lol. I get push-back but I maintain Cassie made more sense. I've gotten various stories about why Cassie was not brought back (Kripke hated that episode, the actress's schedule, etc. ). Lisa only returned for her 2nd episode because of Gimble. Originally Dean's dream was supposed include Jason Voorhees, but they could not get the rights in time. So Gimble, who created Lisa, wrote her (and Ben) into Dean's dream as something he longed for. 

[Terese]

32 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

It's worth a view just have the FF button ready lol. I get push-back but I maintain Cassie made more sense. I've gotten various stories about why Cassie was not brought back (Kripke hated that episode, the actress's schedule, etc. ). Lisa only returned for her 2nd episode because of Gimble. Originally Dean's dream was supposed include Jason Voorhees, but they could not get the rights in time. So Gimble, who created Lisa, wrote her (and Ben) into Dean's dream as something he longed for. 

Really? Jason? That would have been amazing and scary. Yeah, the actress for Cassie probably wasn't available. I remember being far more convinced of their love and a genuine relationship than with Lisa. Lisa was fine, but felt a little forced compared to Cassie. I have all the DVDs and just started season 1 a couple nights ago. Mostly, cause I wanted to remember what I loved about the show. This season has made me almost forget. I will watch  Route 666, soon. 

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, Terese said:

Really? Jason? That would have been amazing and scary. Yeah, the actress for Cassie probably wasn't available. I remember being far more convinced of their love and a genuine relationship than with Lisa. Lisa was fine, but felt a little forced compared to Cassie. I have all the DVDs and just started season 1 a couple nights ago. Mostly, cause I wanted to remember what I loved about the show. This season has made me almost forget. I will watch  Route 666, soon. 

IMO Cassie would have been even weirder than Lisa because she pretty much made it clear at the end of the episode that she had zero interest or investment in a relationship. I figure she wouldn't even remember his name by the time of Seadon 5.

Lisa was awkward as well but at least they re-introduced her in Season 5 before the Finale. They needed to have done even more to reintroduce Cassie.

[Terese]

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

IMO Cassie would have been even weirder than Lisa because she pretty much made it clear at the end of the episode that she had zero interest or investment in a relationship. I figure she wouldn't even remember his name by the time of Seadon 5.

Lisa was awkward as well but at least they re-introduced her in Season 5 before the Finale. They needed to have done even more to reintroduce Cassie.

Maybe. A one weekend stand versus a more lengthy, but doomed one, both ages ago.  I don't remember too much about the Route 666 episode or how they said goodbye.  I remember one or both felt some distrust or hurt from the past? A misunderstanding that could have been resolved with communication? I guess I'll find out upon rewatch. I feel the attraction for Lisa was perhaps less her, and more about Ben and the idea of family. And as I reall when they parted in season 6, Lisa even emphasized Dean as being a role model for Ben. 

In fact, when I think of Dean with someone, it would be the waitress in Monster Movie. Much like I think Sam with Sarah, or some one like her. Eileen is good though. Someone who gets it, their lives and isn't afraid of it, or expects them to choose between it or them. But, mostly, they don't get to have that kind of love in their lives. It's just not compatible.

[Bergamot]

If Dean is going to end up with the real-life version of Rocky's Bar when everything is over, I would like to see him with someone like Pamela. Someone who can assist him if he has to kill some vampires that come in to the bar, and then is there to wipe the blood off his face afterwards. Someone who can give him friendship and warmth and companionship, someone he can have a drink with and laugh with and talk about his life with.

I have nothing against Eileen, but Dean's relationship with the Pamela we saw for a few brief moments in Nihilism, who only existed inside Dean's head, came to life and felt to me like something more real than what we have seen in all the scenes with Sam and Eileen. The latter relationship feels artificial to me, and sometimes awkward and unconvincing, like that scene where the two of them are cooking bacon and eggs for breakfast after supposedly spending all night drinking margaritas together.

I know that the Pamela in Rocky's Bar said that Dean was not interested in her, that he just liked to flirt. But I have no doubt at all, if he were interested, that she would be there for it! Unfortunately, I don't think Dean will get the chance to have something like this in the end, because I don't believe he will get the peace that he deserves. Which is really tragic.

[gonzosgirrl]

Totally O/T for this thread but since we're on the subject... Lisa made more sense because Ben is Dean's son. I will not be accepting arguments at this time.

:P

[tessathereaper]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

IMO Cassie would have been even weirder than Lisa because she pretty much made it clear at the end of the episode that she had zero interest or investment in a relationship. I figure she wouldn't even remember his name by the time of Seadon 5.

Lisa was awkward as well but at least they re-introduced her in Season 5 before the Finale. They needed to have done even more to reintroduce Cassie.

I agree. Cassie it seems was ready to move on, that seeing Dean again let her work through whatever lingering issues she had about how it ended. Sure now she knew he wasn't crazy but she just had different aims in her life and she was sensible enough to see that it wasn't something she saw working out.

There really would have been no reason for Dean to go back as I'm sure he was able to move on afterwards too, now that it was a good clean break, Cassie knew the truth, knew he wasn't crazy but still didn't see it working out between them. With Lisa, their first meeting which was probably just before Sam had left to go to college(Dean took a 5 day roadtrip while Dad and Sam cleaned up the aftermath of a banshee case in Florida), it had been something that had been a fun, amazing weekend for both of them, who were both a bit wild and they both remember each other very fondly("greatest night of my life Dean" and Gumby Girl, due to her uh... flexibility LOL ie. the sex was amazing and that was all either of them had been looking for at the time). 

They re-meet up under different circumstances years later and when they are at different places in their lives, more mature.  Lisa even at the end of her initial appearance suggested she might have been willing to see if there was a possibility for something more between her and Dean.  She kissed him and said "if you want to stick around for a while, you're welcome to stay."  So it would make sense for Dean to start to see her as someone who "might have been" except, at the time well, he was going to get dragged to hell in less than a year. And he had grown fond of her son Ben too.

So to me it made sense, he understandably would have put Cassie in the finished business category and moved on, as one tends to do in those circumstances, whereas Lisa had sort of left the door open just a little bit.

I'll be honest I was a bit of a Dean/Ellen shipper(not in that I really shipped them but it was something that made some sense to me),  I always through she made way more sense than Jo, because despite Dean being younger, he had a lot more "mileage" on him, in a way that was more similar to Ellen.   Dean was just at such a different place in life than Jo and had known what it was like to have so many heavy responsibilities on him, while Jo was still at the "romanticizing hunting" stage when they first met. There was only about 5 years difference in their ages but it may as well have been a couple decades in terms of life experience.

ETA:  Actually I agree about the waitress in Monster Movie too, she and Dean were really cute together.  Pamela too, it was always funny to me that Dean seemed to have more chemistry and women who seemed "more right" for him than any of his actual "love interests"(actual or proposed) the show gave him.  Lisa IMO actually came the closest out of the love interest/potential love interest category for me as they had a sexy, comfortable vibe to me.  But even there it wasn't quite it.  

Edited October 28, 2020 by tessathereaper

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, Terese said:

In fact, when I think of Dean with someone, it would be the waitress in Monster Movie.

I could see that! Jaime was great!

For me, once Donna was introduced, I was on the Dean/Donna ship. Dean was really kind to her in that first episode. And later when she learned about monsters, I think respected her competence.  The seemed to have genuine  respect for each other. Plus they both love food!  

I remember in the episode wherein Donna killed the vamps, that Dean was kind of into her because of her bravery. 

I always thought Jensen and Brianna had great chemistry. Dina/Deonna 4evr! 

[Lemuria]

Quote

I could see that! Jaime was great!

I liked her, too.  You know who else I could see?  Carmen.  It's just too bad she wasn't real  😀

[tessathereaper]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I could see that! Jaime was great!

For me, once Donna was introduced, I was on the Dean/Donna ship. Dean was really kind to her in that first episode. And later when she learned about monsters, I think respected her competence.  The seemed to have genuine  respect for each other. Plus they both love food!  

I remember in the episode wherein Donna killed the vamps, that Dean was kind of into her because of her bravery. 

I always thought Jensen and Brianna had great chemistry. Dina/Deonna 4evr! 

Wow, shows how much I try to block the more recent years out of my head, I forgot about Donna but actually I can see that too, for a more recent "ship", I could definitely see Donna.  As I said,  I've never really shipped Dean with anyone, but there are ones I can see the possibility and she's definitely one of them.

[catrox14]

So, speaking of Donna, I wonder why Sam is hugging her in the promos for the season. Does Jodi die? Or one of the Wayward Sisters?

I've been wondering if Dean is going to sacrifice himself. Like I almost feel some Point of No Return vibes from Dean's behavior. Why was he alone and drinking when Cas got back to the bunker?  Someone else pointed out that "get your house in order" is often something said to those facing death. I hadn't considered that. Maybe Dean has struck a completely separate deal with Billie going all the way back to advanced thanatology.  I just think Dean seems like he has more on his mind than Jack dying and the world ending. Heck, maybe he's struck a deal with Amara. I mean she should be able to read him still.0, so I think she knows something isn't right with Dean. He didn't exactly lie to her. He can't hurt her, even if Jack can. She seemed almost sad in their meeting, like she knows.

 

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, speaking of Donna, I wonder why Sam is hugging her in the promos for the season. Does Jodi die? Or one of the Wayward Sisters?

I've been wondering if Dean is going to sacrifice himself. Like I almost feel some Point of No Return vibes from Dean's behavior. Why was he alone and drinking when Cas got back to the bunker?  Someone else pointed out that "get your house in order" is often something said to those facing death. I hadn't considered that. Maybe Dean has struck a completely separate deal with Billie going all the way back to advanced thanatology.  I just think Dean seems like he has more on his mind than Jack dying and the world ending. Heck, maybe he's struck a deal with Amara. I mean she should be able to read him still.0, so I think she knows something isn't right with Dean. He didn't exactly lie to her. He can't hurt her, even if Jack can. She seemed almost sad in their meeting, like she knows.

 

Yeah, it doesn't matter.  Sam will guilt Dean out of sacrificing himself (probably with that tearful "you've done everything for me,") and take it on himself.  And then Jack will come up with something else for the win.  

Edited October 28, 2020 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

Given the clues from recent interviews that the resolution is more about talking and less about fighting, I'm now leaning towards nobody sacrificing anything, which makes Castiel happy, which gets him zapped by the Empty, and leads to one sappy/happy/touchy/feely ending (which I can see Jensen not liking).

[Aeryn13]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given the clues from recent interviews that the resolution is more about talking and less about fighting, I'm now leaning towards nobody sacrificing anything, which makes Castiel happy, which gets him zapped by the Empty, and leads to one sappy/happy/touchy/feely ending (which I can see Jensen not liking).

I don't think Misha filmed for 19 and 20, though. Unless he did it on the first day of 19 before the lockdown. And 19 is the resolution so if he died from happiness, it would only happen then.

I think he will be the one to die/sacrifice for the Nougat in 18. And 19 will have some kumbayah nonsense with Michael and Lucy.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given the clues from recent interviews that the resolution is more about talking and less about fighting, I'm now leaning towards nobody sacrificing anything, which makes Castiel happy, which gets him zapped by the Empty, and leads to one sappy/happy/touchy/feely ending (which I can see Jensen not liking).

Well, they're already setting up a duplicate of the season 11 ending (with Jack as the soul bomb talking down the two warring parties/family members) so I can see that, and the idea of Cas being so happy he literally dies.  But that's just the season ending, not the series, and I thought it was the final ep that Jensen wasn't happy with.  And if they resolve everything in the penultimate ep, what will the final ep/wrap up be?  Just clips/cameos of their greatest hits, either as seeing their lives flash before their eyes as they're dying or as they get into Baby and ride off into the sunset?  

[Aeryn13]

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, they're already setting up a duplicate of the season 11 ending (with Jack as the soul bomb talking down the two warring parties/family members) so I can see that, and the idea of Cas being so happy he literally dies.  But that's just the season ending, not the series, and I thought it was the final ep that Jensen wasn't happy with.  And if they resolve everything in the penultimate ep, what will the final ep/wrap up be?  Just clips/cameos of their greatest hits, either as seeing their lives flash before their eyes as they're dying or as they get into Baby and ride off into the sunset?  

I think what he wasn't happy with is how/where they end up. Maybe not so much even the minutia of the episode 

A thought I had for the next ep: if Chuck storms the bunker at the end and Nougat looks in bad shape, maybe that's where Amara comes in? Saving them for the time being?

Because otherwise how do they survive? Is Chuck still villain-monologuing so much he doesn't kill them? If Nougat can't hack it - and he is only supposed to be a suicide bomb, not go mano a mano powerwise, they got absolutely nothing. (I thought about going for the obvious pun here.)

[PAForrest]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I could see that! Jaime was great!

For me, once Donna was introduced, I was on the Dean/Donna ship. Dean was really kind to her in that first episode. And later when she learned about monsters, I think respected her competence.  The seemed to have genuine  respect for each other. Plus they both love food!  

I remember in the episode wherein Donna killed the vamps, that Dean was kind of into her because of her bravery. 

I always thought Jensen and Brianna had great chemistry. Dina/Deonna 4evr! 

Jamie was awesome. And I believe I recall reading somewhere, years ago, where Jensen really liked her too for Dean.

The second time we saw Donna, I was convinced she was the girl for Dean. I would have been very happy if the show had gone in this direction. Unfortunately it seems pretty obvious that Dean isn't going to end up with a relationship - especially since he's probably going to be dead. Dean/Donna is a real missed opportunity. Even Brianna said she thought Donna should hook up with Dean.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

A thought I had for the next ep: if Chuck storms the bunker at the end and Nougat looks in bad shape, maybe that's where Amara comes in? Saving them for the time being?

Because otherwise how do they survive? Is Chuck still villain-monologuing so much he doesn't kill them?

Actually, that reminds me of that little part in one of the previews, where Chuck is saying something like, "I control all of time and space. And they think they can kill ME?" I can't remember if it looked like he was in the bunker when he said that, but I wondered when I heard it who exactly Chuck was talking to right then. Billie? Himself? Now that you suggest it, it might be part of a confrontation between him and Amara.

[Terese]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, they're already setting up a duplicate of the season 11 ending (with Jack as the soul bomb talking down the two warring parties/family members) so I can see that, and the idea of Cas being so happy he literally dies.  But that's just the season ending, not the series, and I thought it was the final ep that Jensen wasn't happy with.  And if they resolve everything in the penultimate ep, what will the final ep/wrap up be?  Just clips/cameos of their greatest hits, either as seeing their lives flash before their eyes as they're dying or as they get into Baby and ride off into the sunset?  

This whole season has been a duplicate with a twist or lesser telling. Right up until the last episode with just another version of Something Wicked where Dean has to go back and kill a monster preying on children. If it was their goal to revisit the series, the trip down memory lane should have enhanced or embellished the prior stories. Purgatory, by example, should d have developed what happens when you die in Purgatory. Are you cleansed and move on to Heaven at some point? Destructive Chuck instead of Destructive Amara. Mirror Universe, indeed. I so hope we aren't watching the real universe. I would like to see the real Sam and Dean in the final episode, after Chuck destroys this one.

 

 

[DeeDee79]

21 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

And re: Ruby and Gen. Gen's acting was very stiff. Definitely a case of attractiveness winning over skill. I really like Katie's Ruby once she got into it.

I completely agree with this. I didn't like the character of Ruby but I do think that Katie did a much better job than Gen did. I liked the thinly veiled contempt that Ruby 1.0 had for Sam while reeling him into her cause vs the overt cheerleading of Ruby 2.0. To add to this I also preferred Meg 1.0 over Rachel Miner's version. Both actresses were fine but OG Meg was so much more menacing IMO.

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Totally O/T for this thread but since we're on the subject... Lisa made more sense because Ben is Dean's son. I will not be accepting arguments at this time.

😛

I wish that the writers would have gone there. It would have been so much better than the "Jack is our son" cringefest that's taken over the show now.