S02.E01: A Father's Advice

[Guest]

On 9/26/2017 at 7:18 PM, emjohnson03 said:

Loved the use of U2's cover of  "One" by Damien Rice as well. So good!

I didn't listen to which it was on the show but the song was written by U2, and was later covered by Damian Rice, I'm pretty sure.  

On 9/26/2017 at 8:22 PM, RogerDodger said:

Why is everyone assuming Jack died in the fire?  I get that is what the writers want us to think, but seems like classic misdirection to me.  I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the characters to be very upset simply because, you know, their house just burned.

But if Kate coincidentally just has to tell Kevin the house burned down, right after Kevin told Toby that Kate told him their father died... not even these writers would dare stoop to such ridiculous misdirection, I don't think.

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yes, the good old days when you were not parent-accessible 24/7.  Man, I feel bad for this generation.

Poor teens with their smart phones.  They can always turn them off and pretend it's 1994.  They don't because smart phones are awesome.  

9 hours ago, Biggie B said:

 

Why did Kevin rent out the entire restaurant? He's not such a giant star that he needs the privacy in public. Was it just to impress Kate and Toby? It seemed uncomfortable to be in an empty restaurant; one of the interesting parts of dining out is the atmosphere, and other patrons are a big part of that (and I don't mean dining out at your local neighborhood pizzeria).

I think it's part of their way of showing Kevin's incredibly impractical and socially clueless.

6 hours ago, chocolatine said:

She's an urban planner. 

Thanks.  Where was that given?  I think I kept asking last season if the attorney thing was just an assumption because she used the words 'legal pad' once.  

Randall, Toby and Beth were alternately insufferable.  The monologues were painful as always.  Milo's drunk face includes letting his numb lip hang, which is kind of cool but also kind of heavy handed.  

I too kind of balk at the suggestion that he was drinking 'round the clock at home behind Rebecca's back.  I figured he meant he'd been drunk for weeks at Miguel's but maybe dialog set his time there at days.  I know it's common to hide alcoholism at home but I think that's usually someone who drinks openly around family but pretends it's not at problem level.  I don't know of drunks who are entirely closet drinkers, especially bossy, know-it-all husbands like Jack.

[Casually Observant]

On 9/26/2017 at 7:16 PM, Laurie4H said:

Am I the only one who doesn't like Beth?  I guess I just don't like the actress.  She isn't natural to me.  All her expressions seem fake.  And she always seems upset.

No, you are not. Why is Beth written to always look ticked off? No matter what, she looks put out, angry, resentful. She rarely shows any kind of happiness or exuberance. It makes it hard to sympathize with her even when she is justified with her feelings. We need to see a balance instead of this always simmering-below-the-surface/my life sucks even though I live in a gorgeous home and have excessive income and a handsome husband and darling daughters and fulfilling job/ wife.

On 9/26/2017 at 8:26 PM, ChromaKelly said:

Ugh, yes. It's generally advised to never adopt out of birth order. Adopting an older boy with two younger children in the home is a recipe for disaster. I kind of hope they don't adopt.

I worry if they bring an older, troubled and unrelated boy into this home with the two younger daughters, it could cause all kinds of bad outcomes.  It'd be funny if they end up bringing home another girl, maybe a white child or a set of twins.  

On 9/26/2017 at 8:41 PM, pally said:

only problem with the  Jack lingering theory is that the firefighters and tape were still at the house when Rebecca drove by,  The implication is that Jack was already dead when she stopped.

Rebecca looked like it was a regular day, driving home. Jack is still alive and she's just heading home. Then, she sees the house has burned down.  She didn't know about it until then, otherwise why was she coming home?  Also, the plastic stuff in the car might have been her picking up some stuff that was left at the office by Jack, or maybe it was because he was at a treatment center or something. Essentially, I think the house had just burned down and no one had been able to reach her to tell her yet.

21 hours ago, colorbars said:

I've always found Beth really funny and delightful. This was the first time she ever seemed overly upset about anything.

Huh.  That's interesting.  

18 hours ago, llewis823 said:

No you are not the only one.  I feel like Beth always talks down to everyone - and rarely smiles. Not a big fan of her character.

OK.  Thanks.

15 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Okay....please tell me did  Rebecca ACTUALLY knock on the door again and insist that Jack come with her OR was this the way she reenacts it in her mind? Did she actually leave and not insist he join her and that's a decision that she regrets?  I'm not sure why I got that feeling.  Things went dark, then they changed.  

I thought the same as you. This is what she should have done, but didn't. This would have changed everything.   Or, this is what they want us to think! Or, did they change their mind and reshoot the scene because they were not sure where the plot was going at that point in shooting?  Who knows!

14 hours ago, Phoebe70 said:

Random thoughts...

-I was bothered by Beth's behavior in front of the adoption specialist/social worker.  Couldn't she have discussed her doubts with Randall in private beforehand?

Quite puzzling why she was being so overtly passive-aggressive at the adoption agency. Was she purposely trying to sabotage their interview?  Otherwise, who would approve the adoption when one parent was clearly not on board?  No one.  If she felt this strongly about it, she of course would have had this conversation with Randall before even going.  Why are they writing her with all of this repressed anger?  She has just become a Debbie Downer.  Don't bring another child into this household before you fix things, Beth and Randall.

[jjj]

I binged the first season a few weeks ago, and was so frustrated that we did not get an answer about Jack in the season finale.  It was like having someone rip out the last page of a mystery book.  I only watched this episode because I saw headlines of "How Jack Died" today, and thought that meant it actually was revealed.  So, if they are going to stretch this out, I will wait and binge, because it is too much of a tease.  It reminds me of "How to Get Away with Murder," where the little details in the opener finally become part of the revelation at the end.  (I binge that, also.)  I saw in an interview that every little detail in the final scenes of this first episode will be explained -- and I prefer not to get pieces of the answer via tweezers, week by week. 

If they wanted to plot that Jack is killed *in* the fire, they would not have shown us the fire.  Everyone looked too clean in the final scenes, including Jack's personal effects.  The watch seems to be at 6:10, and the notebook does have "Construction Design" printed on it. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

I binged the first season a few weeks ago, and was so frustrated that we did not get an answer about Jack in the season finale.  It was like having someone rip out the last page of a mystery book.  I only watched this episode because I saw headlines of "How Jack Died" today, and thought that meant it actually was revealed.  So, if they are going to stretch this out, I will wait and binge, because it is too much of a tease.  It reminds me of "How to Get Away with Murder," where the little details in the opener finally become part of the revelation at the end.  (I binge that, also.)  I saw in an interview that every little detail in the final scenes of this first episode will be explained -- and I prefer not to get pieces of the answer via tweezers, week by week. 

If they wanted to plot that Jack is killed *in* the fire, they would not have shown us the fire.  Everyone looked too clean in the final scenes, including Jack's personal effects.  The watch seems to be at 6:10, and the notebook does have "Construction Design" printed on it. 

The producer was coy but said the fire was a clue not the death. I agree with not dragging it, but I think there will be shows with mainly Randall or Kate doing things and no real Jack drama. They have too many to get through.

I think Beth's reaction wasn't that odd at the adoption place, she felt dragged there in a sense, she wanted the woman to know she wasn't on board and I feel, to know her husband had "issues" he was trying to work through. The "Do you have  a baby left at a fire station? comment was snarky but better than pretending she didn't think he had things to work through. Better than that is not going but marriages are complicated and at least they are  human. He seemed a little manic in his actions, he should take a breath and go slow.

I hope as others have said, a foster child that later gets adopted is a better script. It will be a lot more than another plate at the table and I hope they make it warm but also realistic. And do we see another possible breakdown for Randall?

"

Also, the dog is definitely theirs, Milo said in an interview last year: "Is a dog negotiable down the road?
Oh, yeah. Yeah, Jack’s getting a dog. And that’s the thing I always wondered: Does he want it for the kids or does Jack want it for himself? I feel like anything that Jack can do to bring his family together and closer, and just more wrapped on top of one another, he’s going to do it. And I think a dog absolutely does that, no matter who’s walking it or picking up after it or feeding it. I think Jack just always wants to keep his family together."

Edited September 28, 2017 by debraran

[KateeBar]

I did not love this episode. I can buy manic Randall being pushy about his plan, but I don't buy Beth's response. She has never seemed like the silent treatment type. That was off to me. 

I think my biggest issue was Toby, same as last season. I just can't stand that character. Thanks to the Fug Girls, I've now seen the actor in a bunch of red carpet pictures and he seems EXHAUSTING in still photos, with his posing and accessories and wacky suit choices. Which has made me wonder - was Toby originally written differently, and the actor was all "let me punch him up, improvise a little" and then we got the Toby we now see? 

I sort of wonder if Jack was in an accident, and the house burned while Rebecca was at the hospital? Though that just seems like too much tragedy to lump on them, too. I hope there's an explanation soon. 

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think I've seen it mentioned, what was the point of breaking the news of the ever-so-brief separation in a public place?  I think going home makes more sense.  Why subject the kids to having to deal with emotions in front of strangers and have to run out?  It felt like too much contrived drama for no good reason.  I may be starting to come down on the side of people who think the show is too manipulative. 

[Gurkel]

9 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yes, this!  I love Randall, but I think he's throwing himself into something that may not ultimately be the best thing for him or the family.  He doesn't have to adopt a child to honor the memory of his two fathers, he could just focus on his two adorable girls and be content that he's taken time out of an all-consuming career to be there for them.

I didn't have a problem with Beth finally snapping at the adoption agency.  She's probably also stressed about going back to work and supporting the family  ...  she may love her new job, but going back after time off would be scary, especially with the added pressure of her husband staying home and wanting another kid.    And not only is she under a strain, she probably feels like she can't vent to Randall because he's been through such a terrible time.  So she has nobody to talk to right now (especially with William gone, who really was a friend to her).  And it built up until she snapped.

Well said. Just adding that I don't think Beth is angry or a Debbie Downer, as some posters have suggested. She laughs, she jokes around with the family, and she's almost always on board with Randall's ideas, no matter how quirky (e.g. thanksgiving). Plenty of other characters on the show get upset and express their opinions. So why does it bother people so much when a black woman does it? 

 

8 hours ago, Cardie said:

Newer usage says it's okay not to put the comma before "and." 

And there's a special place in hell for people who say that. 

[Quickbeam]

6 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

Quite puzzling why she was being so overtly passive-aggressive at the adoption agency. 

I felt like the counselor had read the room accurately; her comment about "the dragger and the dragee", opened the door to Beth's comments.  

[PRgal]

An "older" child could be five or six years old.  Randall and Beth's kids are older than that.  I'd like to see them adopt a non-white child who also isn't black.  Maybe a Hispanic or Native American boy (side note:  an adopted child is still related to the family.  Just not genetically related.  Sorry for the nitpicking.  My DH and I took adoption training classes).

Also, are Kate and Toby married now?  He called her his "wife" a few times.

Edited September 28, 2017 by PRgal

[Gurkel]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

An "older" child could be five or six years old.  Randall and Beth's kids are older than that.  I'd like to see them adopt a non-white child who also isn't black.  Maybe a Hispanic or Native American boy (side note:  an adopted child is still related to the family.  Just not genetically related.  Sorry for the nitpicking.  My DH and I took adoption training classes).

Also, are Kate and Toby married now?  He called her his "wife" a few times.

I forgot to mention that I loved the scene with Randall playing with the neighbors' baby for so long that they had to ask for him/her back. "Okay, that's all for today."

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, Gurkel said:

Plenty of other characters on the show get upset and express their opinions. So why does it bother people so much when a black woman does it? 

My only problem with Beth was the last episode when she wasn't expressing her opinions. Or, she was, but passive-aggressively.  This isn't about wanting something different for dinner.   Adoption is a huge life decision and shouldn't be entered into because you don't want to rock the boat.

 

28 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

I felt like the counselor had read the room accurately; her comment about "the dragger and the dragee", opened the door to Beth's comments.  

Absolutely.  But, she should have never been put in that position in the first place.  Beth should have said something.  And Randalll should have been able to read her better. She wasn't stating anything outright, but she also wasn't being the most subtle, either.

[Clanstarling]

14 hours ago, mojoween said:

I'm still devastated that Kevin threw out the cake.

Eh, it wasn't chocolate and looked a little grainy to me. So I was good with it. :)

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It's a fraction of what Randall must have made at the investment firm and will be quickly eaten up by mortgage, property taxes, living expenses, and college/retirement savings.

I would assume that being an investment guy, he has investments up the wazoo to live on,, money put away for college, and that he quite possibly doesn't have a mortgage - given that he seems to like to pay cash for expensive things. I think Beth's income will maintain the status quo. My DH and I did the same thing (on a much, much more modest income, less than the current median) and managed just fine.

13 hours ago, debraran said:

She did have his keys, not something he would have been carrying IN the house. The steno book, not sure, but it's there for a reason. Rehab notes? Construction? I think I see construction or something like that on cover.

Not everyone empties their pockets when they come home - assuming there was time to empty them. Does anyone else think Jack's ring looks HUGE compared to the watch? 

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't think I've seen it mentioned, what was the point of breaking the news of the ever-so-brief separation in a public place?  I think going home makes more sense.  Why subject the kids to having to deal with emotions in front of strangers and have to run out?  It felt like too much contrived drama for no good reason.  I may be starting to come down on the side of people who think the show is too manipulative. 

I thought it strange too - but decided it was a different spin on the "break up in public so there won't be a scene." I didn't care for it - though I think the kids would have reacted more noisily if they'd been told at home. OTOH, maybe it was just so the kids wouldn't see their father have to physically move out??

[Guest]

I don't think that 'dragger and draggee' thing was appropriate.  She and Rebecca both, and by extension the writers, were saying it's not only normal but healthy for a spouse to force you into irreversible life decisions?  Bullshit.

I do think Beth spent most of her scenes with a sour, sulky face and it does put me off, not that a black woman character has to be all smiles, of course.  But the writers have the opportunity to write an interesting, fresh, black woman character and instead they regurgitate this old, tired stereotype.  Beth's nearly always the self-righteous, sarcastic, sourpuss, victim in the room.  (How is my comma usage there?  Don't answer that.)

[Lady Calypso]

7 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

Rebecca looked like it was a regular day, driving home. Jack is still alive and she's just heading home. Then, she sees the house has burned down.  She didn't know about it until then, otherwise why was she coming home?  Also, the plastic stuff in the car might have been her picking up some stuff that was left at the office by Jack, or maybe it was because he was at a treatment center or something. Essentially, I think the house had just burned down and no one had been able to reach her to tell her yet.

I thought Rebecca looked like she was in shock, with the blank expression on her face. She didn't seem to be happy or sad, but just kind of there. Once she pulled up in front of the house and saw it, possibly for the first time if she wasn't home when the fire started, then that's when she broke. 

I'd really hate if this is yet another twist and Jack's just at rehab. But with the wedding ring being part of the personal belongings, I don't think Jack would ever take that thing off unless he was actually dead. I assume he can keep the ring in rehab (I could be wrong), and I feel pretty sure he's not in jail. 

7 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

I worry if they bring an older, troubled and unrelated boy into this home with the two younger daughters, it could cause all kinds of bad outcomes.  It'd be funny if they end up bringing home another girl, maybe a white child or a set of twins.  

Honestly, I'm expecting it'll be a pre-teen or young teenage boy, just because they might want to utilise the storyline, and they can't always get the material that they want from a young child. I'd rather it was a five year old child than a pre-teen or teenager, but I get the feeling that it won't be the case. Though they also could go with the twist of Randall/Beth taking in a troubled girl instead. That would be a neat twist that I'd get behind. We often see TV shows choosing boys in terms of telling a story about a troubled foster child; rarely do shows ever take in a troubled teenage girl (shows like The Foster excluded as that girl is the main character on that show). So, if we have to have a teenager or pre-teen come on the show for Randall and Beth to adopt, I'd rather it was a girl. I always am in the mood for subverted tropes.

7 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

Quite puzzling why she was being so overtly passive-aggressive at the adoption agency. Was she purposely trying to sabotage their interview?  Otherwise, who would approve the adoption when one parent was clearly not on board?  No one.  If she felt this strongly about it, she of course would have had this conversation with Randall before even going.  Why are they writing her with all of this repressed anger?  She has just become a Debbie Downer.  Don't bring another child into this household before you fix things, Beth and Randall.

I don't think she was intentionally sabotaging the interview, although it was definitely sabotaging it. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see the in between scenes when Randall told Beth that he wanted to adopt until now. So we have no idea if Beth has tried to talk to Randall about this before and he kept shooting her down, or if she tried to get on board and the bitterness kept building up. Maybe it was a little of both. It is definitely on Beth for not getting Randall to listen to her earlier, but we also saw that Randall initially was going to go through with the adoption, regardless of how Beth felt (and then he calmed down and figured out that he was wrong for their fight). Beth should have talked to Randall earlier. But, I assume TV writing made it so that we saw Beth and Randall fight about it. Because of the time jump in between last season and this one, they had to put the conversation on hold. Both were wrong in this episode, though. Beth for being passive aggressive and not having conversations with Randall beforehand, and Randall for not listening to Beth or noticing that she wasn't on board. Both said some pretty wrong things in their fight. 

They definitely didn't fix things by the end of the episode, so we may see a rocky point in their marriage. Just because Beth compromised with adopting an older kid, it doesn't mean their problems are magically fixed.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

but we also saw that Randall initially was going to go through with the adoption, regardless of how Beth felt (and then he calmed down and figured out that he was wrong for their fight).

I don't even know how that would work.  Why would an adoption agency, or a mother choosing parents for her child, pick a couple where one wasn't on board?

[MelGoLightly]

I paused this scene and took a close look the house. I felt like there were a ton of clues thrown out at once, but the house was the biggest. The house was still dripping wet from the fire hoses. It was definitely something that had happened that day or earlier in the evening.

• Her Steelers jersey says something about the goings-on of that day as well. Notice how the kids aren't in their Steelers clothing? It looks like Rebecca is coming from somewhere - like a hospital - with Jack's personal affects. She's stone faced while driving, holding it together to be able to drive is my thought. And seeing the house blackened and dripping for the first time since the fire breaking out and  having to go to the hospital for/with Jack breaks her. 
• The firefighter and inspector are both turning and looking up toward one particular room (the one dripping) which has the hole in the roof over it and the firefighter is pointing to that room. That room has to be the source of the fire. But is it Kate's room or is it their master bedroom? Maybe Jacks' alcoholism doesn't even play into the fire. The more I think about it and from reading everyone else's theories, I am willing to bet that alcohol is not a direct factor. 
• Definitely agree that the cast, the red head, and the dog will serve as timestamps over the season. 

SO help me if Rebecca was having a "wish this was reality" flashback when she got Jack out of Miguel's house and told him to get in the car...I will keep watching but complain a lot. 

[OtterMommy]

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But if Kate coincidentally just has to tell Kevin the house burned down, right after Kevin told Toby that Kate told him their father died... not even these writers would dare stoop to such ridiculous misdirection, I don't think.

You have much more confidence in these writers than I do.  Right now, I'm envisioning a scenario where Kate is somehow responsible for the house burning down (curling iron and tissue box, people!) and THAT is why she and Randall are crying at Miguel's.  Meanwhile, completely unrelated to that, Jack dies somehow and it just happens to be on the same day.  Because....this show and all their TWISTS!!! and TURNS!!!!

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

You have much more confidence in these writers than I do.  Right now, I'm envisioning a scenario where Kate is somehow responsible for the house burning down (curling iron and tissue box, people!) and THAT is why she and Randall are crying at Miguel's.  Meanwhile, completely unrelated to that, Jack dies somehow and it just happens to be on the same day.  Because....this show and all their TWISTS!!! and TURNS!!!!

That's what I would call a really bad day.  Not that it would be just as bad if Jack died in the fire, but, just weirder anyway.  It's kind of like Theodore Roosevelt's wife and mother from two different diseases that just happened to kill them on the same day.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Katy M

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MelGoLightly said:

SO help me if Rebecca was having a "wish this was reality" flashback when she got Jack out of Miguel's house and told him to get in the car...I will keep watching but complain a lot. 

Yeah, I don't think show has gone the 'unreliable narrator' route (without hallucinogens or after-death excuses) before and if it starts now, I think that's a cheap trick.  

I figure the 'day Jack died' events will be like some Rube Goldberg machine involving Kate, the dog, the fire and Jack being a hero and martyr but not dying directly from the fire.  I'm sure it will be epic and tragic and I'll be both rolling my eyes at the melodrama and also crying because they can't take this long to dream up one event and not make it somewhat effective. 

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

You have much more confidence in these writers than I do.  Right now, I'm envisioning a scenario where Kate is somehow responsible for the house burning down (curling iron and tissue box, people!) and THAT is why she and Randall are crying at Miguel's.  Meanwhile, completely unrelated to that, Jack dies somehow and it just happens to be on the same day.  Because....this show and all their TWISTS!!! and TURNS!!!!

Yes, Jack dying in the house fire just does not fit with Randall's saying he slipped away when no one was looking, I have to say it again.  Also, he would not have had that construction design notebook on his person along with his ring and watch, it looks too big to be in a pocket.  It might have been next to him in his car, or with him at a construction site, something like that. 

[justmythoughts]

I confess I'd read your comments before I watched the episode. Even though, I was not prepared to that last scene. It was brutal, specially with the U2 song together, that song speaks deep into me. 

I do hope they are not using the fire as yet another coy. Maybe Jack didn't die in the fire, but I hope things are related. As much as I hope Rebecca really did knock on the door and grab Jack with her to the car (this show is already enough with so many people and past and now and middle past and more in the past...). I hope Jack and Rebecca and the big three had had a couple of great months before Jack died. Although having your house burnt down must be terrifying, I thought Kate and Randall were deeply sad, Rebecca was in shock and her break down was raw pain. But mostly, Miguel was crying... I imagine if it was "only" the house, he would put on a brave face for the kids.

I can understand both Toby and Kate's point of view. I am very close to my sisters, not twins, and somethings I feel even more confortable to tell them than my husband (girl stuff, ir even some complaints about the hubby - he is quite messy!), but I try not to make so clear to hubby that bond because he hasn't the same situation with his sister, so he doesn't fully understand. I don't know Toby's family background, I guess Kate should be aware of the fact that Toby sometimes has his insecurities in relation to his importante in her life... On the other hand, sure Toby should be aware of the fact that twins bond is something to be handled with care.

Glad Kate didn't get the gig not for her weight but for her lack of training or ability (even though to me she sings pretty nicely, maybe it is because I sound terribly!). Kevin and Sophie... Meh... Randall and Beth, adoption is not something you adjust in your life. It is very difficult and it requires preparation, although I liked more Beth's plan and I think it is risky because of the girls, but if they think carefully, maybe a boy in the middle of the girls' ages...

I am one of the not a Miguel fan, but I'll wait the whole story to be sure, right now for me it seems like he always lurked on Rebecca and was jealous of her and Jack's life, so more than love it seems like envy. But we'll see...

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, Jack dying in the house fire just does not fit with Randall's saying he slipped away when no one was looking, I have to say it again. 

It might, if he got everybody else and then slipped back in to save something else when nobody was looking.

[Guest]

Remind me when Randall said that slipped away thing?  

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It might, if he got everybody else and then slipped back in to save something else when nobody was looking.

Possible, but I still think if he died in the fire, either on the scene or later at the hospital, Miguel and the kids would have been there.  Miguel would have driven them instead of just taking them to his house.  Unless Jack had some minor injury that morphed into something dire.  Even then, they're so devoted to the guy that I think they would have gone along with their mother.  The thing I wonder about is Kate blaming herself, if she somehow started a fire and he wasn't there.  Unless preoccupation with fire meant nobody realized he hadn't come home or been heard from. . . it could go a lot of ways. 

[Guest]

I can see a lot of circumstances where Rebecca wouldn't want the kids going with her and would ask Miguel to keep them.   Mainly to me it implies Jack was already dead when Rebecca got the call to show up wherever she did.  And that none of them were at the house when it burned.  That Jack had a notebook on him suggests he wasn't, either.  

Oh jeez, I bet the notebook is going to be full of dying words from Saint Jack.

[pawsodoom]

2 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I can see a lot of circumstances where Rebecca wouldn't want the kids going with her and would ask Miguel to keep them.   Mainly to me it implies Jack was already dead when Rebecca got the call to show up wherever she did.  And that none of them were at the house when it burned.  That Jack had a notebook on him suggests he wasn't, either.  

Absolutely. Assuming Jack died in the fire, no one may have been home when the fire started, Jack got the call, went home, tried to rescue the dog, and died in the process. That's one theory. We can probably come up with 10 more.  And I'm sure they will all be wrong. :)

[ShadowFacts]

51 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Remind me when Randall said that slipped away thing?  

He said it to or about William, maybe when William was planning to go to a nursing home, or maybe later than that when they were on their trip and he didn't want him to die in his sleep or something, I can't pinpoint it but it was referring to not having William die when Randall wasn't present. 

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Possible, but I still think if he died in the fire, either on the scene or later at the hospital, Miguel and the kids would have been there.  Miguel would have driven them instead of just taking them to his house. 

Another possibility is that he was injured and later died from some event related to the fire. The family did indeed gather round the bedside and, after he died, Miguel took them to his house, where they were still crying. Rebecca would have stayed behind to deal with post-death issues. Both of my parents died in hospitals and, believe me, you don't just book it out of there once they have passed.

[possibilities]

Oxford Comma Forever!!

Can anyone remember what the kids are wearing in that scene at Miguel's house? Rebecca is wearing a football jersey and no coat when she drives up to the burnt out house. I recall Kate and Randall wearing coats when they are at Miguel's, but I wouldn't swear by it.

I didn't mind the time jumping and misdirects in Season 1, but I'm tired of it now. It's starting to feel like being jerked around, or lost in a maze, not like a fun romp back and forth through time. It added depth to the beginning, challenging our expectations. Now I just feel like they've written a story, cut the scripts into confetti, and tossed it into the air. It's gone past intriguing and into annoying. We don't need chaos in order to create emotion. The show is dangerously close to going too far.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Can anyone remember what the kids are wearing in that scene at Miguel's house?

Normalish clothes--- jeans, shirts and cardigans.

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

He said it to or about William, maybe when William was planning to go to a nursing home, or maybe later than that when they were on their trip and he didn't want him to die in his sleep or something, I can't pinpoint it but it was referring to not having William die when Randall wasn't present. 

Randall said it when William offered to leave so that the girls wouldn't witness his decline and eventual death.

I don't know why we started talking about the Oxford comma, but I'm staunchly pro, for the same reason as @Driad.

Edited September 28, 2017 by chocolatine

[HappyHousewife]

Enjoyed reading the posts in this thread, great insight/suggestions on Jack/fire/etc.  

And now, for my two cents.

I do not think Jack died in the house fire.  Kids are at Miguel's after finding out the house burned down (except for Kevin who is out being Kevin and who most likely broke his leg playing football [#1 on the cast] at least a couple weeks prior to the fire -  (the condition of cast and all the signatures), and Kate's statement about being the one to tell Kevin refers to telling him the house is gone, not that Jack is dead. I don't think the kids know he's dead at this point, but he is. The dog is the family dog or the red haired girl's pet. The red haired girl is possibly Randall's girlfriend (based on the fact that she seems to be focused on him, consoling him, etc).   

Final scene with Rebecca: The watch/wedding band/keys/flag patch/steno book are in pristine condition - they were not in the fire. Now, here's my take on Jack - I believe Jack finds out Rebecca and Miguel are having an affair while he is struggling with his alcoholism (I found Miguel's "oof" reaction somewhat dismissive, a little too passive, we know he's been crushing on her for a long time).  Jack confronts Rebecca and Miguel? Kate intervenes, tries to calm him down, they argue and she tells him to just leave -OR- Kate encourages him to go to a get together (possibly at a family football party at Miguel's, Froggy's or at the game itself - Rebecca is wearing the Steeler's sweatshirt) and his suspicions are confirmed. He leaves, goes home, and in an intoxicated, hit bottom, I've lost Rebecca, FML state, he decides to take his own life, but sets the house on fire first, then leaves and commits suicide by either hanging or pills/booze (meds that were Rx'd to help him with the alcoholism) somewhere outside the house, maybe at his office. He writes his suicide note on the steno pad and leaves the items to be found.  Do we know how Jack's parents died? if they're dead? I cannot recall any reference. I'm curious to know what happened to Jack's father.

 

A little far fetched maybe - but entirely possible. Whatever the cause of death is for Jack, it has something to do with Miguel. Randall cannot stand Miguel, and Kevin isn't real keen on him (although he did let him wear the 'hat' at Thanksgiving last season). I don't recall ever seeing grown up Kate and Miguel interact. 

Toby - I like him, but I do not think he is a good match for Kate (husband-wise).

Beth and Randall - my favorites.

William - the voice of reason, hope we see him regularly in flashbacks.

That's it for now. Peace out.

Edited September 28, 2017 by HappyHousewife
left out a word

[MoonMountain]

14 hours ago, Casually Observant said:

Rebecca looked like it was a regular day, driving home. Jack is still alive and she's just heading home. Then, she sees the house has burned down.  She didn't know about it until then, otherwise why was she coming home?  Also, the plastic stuff in the car might have been her picking up some stuff that was left at the office by Jack, or maybe it was because he was at a treatment center or something. Essentially, I think the house had just burned down and no one had been able to reach her to tell her yet.

I agree that Rebecca did look like it was a regular day driving home. Although her expression was blank, her makeup looked *perfect*. Not what I would expect someone to look like who had just found out that their husband died and/or their house burned down. It is hard to believe she didn't have some kind of facial reaction that would have smudged her makeup or caused some of it to run/wipe off, even if she was doing her best to hold it together. It just seemed like too much perfect looking lipgloss. I know they shot this scene much later, so maybe this was just a fail for the hair and makeup department. I also agree that it's possible she didn't know the house was burned down. I have to remember how not everyone had cell phones in 1998, and if they did, it was usually just the parents, or one for the entire family. So I think it's a possibility she may not have gotten the memo on the house yet.

Either way, with the belongings in the backseat, she knew *something* happened to Jack. 

Rebecca's makeup in that scene is REALLY throwing me off!!

My original theory was that Kate asked Jack to drive her somewhere, and Kate didn't know Jack was drunk, and he got into an accident which killed him. But that wouldn't make sense, since Kate didn't look like she'd been in an accident, or a fire for that matter, when they're in Miguel's apartment. However, we do know that Jack is dead at that point because they "need to find Kevin."  

I do think the fire and Jack's death happened all in one night, otherwise they wouldn't have necessarily taken the dog with them to Miguel's. Although I don't think Jack died in the fire, due to the condition of his personal items in the car. As someone else mentioned -- having Jack die from something else AND a house fire all in one night is almost too much tragedy for one family to really be realistic, so I'm interested to see how it all ties together.

 

And regarding Beth and the adoption...we all see that she doesn't seem into it, and her suggestion to adopt an older kid seems like a compromise to Randall. It's not necessarily something she wants. I wonder if they will go through with an adoption situation, Beth ends up unhappy as maybe the kid has a hard time adjusting, and she takes it out on the kid. She and Randall seem to have a dry sense of humor, but there's usually a smile or joke behind what they say. In that last episode I didn't really see her smiling much. I wonder if they're setting her up to lash out once this adoption becomes real.

[MoonMountain]

One more thing I just thought of -- Jack could have been in a different room of the house that the fire hadn't reached yet, but since the rest of the house was on fire, he couldn't just go downstairs and out the front door. Maybe the door to that room was closed, and he knew if he opened it, he'd be letting in a ton of smoke/fire.

He could have jumped out of a second story window, or from the roof, and died from complications from that (maybe he fell head first, or hit a tree?). Which would explain why his belongings are in such good condition. Because he wasn't actually IN the fire, he died trying to escape.

I would say he jumped holding on to Kate, and he died saving her that way, but she probably would have been in the hospital in that case, and not at Miguel's.

Just a thought.

Edited September 28, 2017 by MoonMountain

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, MoonMountain said:

I agree that Rebecca did look like it was a regular day driving home. Although her expression was blank, her makeup looked *perfect*. Not what I would expect someone to look like who had just found out that their husband died and/or their house burned down.

She could have just been shell-shocked, and reality didn't hit her until she saw the burned out house. Not everyone immediately starts grieving when they find out a loved one has died, especially if it was untimely/accidental. It can take hours or even days for some people.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, MoonMountain said:

Although her expression was blank, her makeup looked *perfect*.

I don't know if you can put much stock in that on a TV show, honestly.  She looked upset.  She had Jack's effects on the seat next to her.  No way she was driving home from the grocery store or something.    And, that's not the way you act when you pull up to a house that you don't know has burned down.  She clearly knew about it already, which negates the "normal drive home" theory.

[ShadowFacts]

I'm not really crazy about the structure of Jack's death being doled out in dribs and drabs.  I was going to put that in Unpopular Opinions but thought it probably isn't too unpopular.  If it's going to be stretched out for most of the season, I imagine it will be tied into Kate's dealing with her relationship with Toby which also isn't tops on my list of what I'd like to see.  They can also tie it into Kate and Rebecca's relationship but that will be harder with them across the country from each other now.  Guess I just have to see how it unfolds. 

[MoonMountain]

5 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

She could have just been shell-shocked, and reality didn't hit her until she saw the burned out house. Not everyone immediately starts grieving when they find out a loved one has died, especially if it was untimely/accidental. It can take hours or even days for some people.

I definitely thought about that, and that's a good point. But even if she didn't have a huge breakdown, she likely would have been talking to doctors, police, and/or firefighters...all that talking, at least some of that lipgloss would have been wiped off. 

I've done some makeup work for film/tv, so maybe I'm just too nitpick-y about that aspect and reading into it way too much. But when I was watching, I couldn't help but think, "Wow, her makeup looks really pretty. Wait...is this all happening in the same night?"

[ChicksDigScars]

On 9/26/2017 at 10:27 PM, sigmaforce86 said:

timeline is pretty set now but I have two thoughts on the broken leg / Kate tells Kevin thing.  1 it's a hint for future episodes, if/when we see Kevin break a leg we know the fire/death is close.  Only downside is we already know their ages and that they watched the Steelers game so another hint isn't needed.  2 the one I think more likely Jack is injured in the fire (burns, smoke inhalation, head or internal injuries) but he lives for days or weeks then dies which explains why the kids were with Miguel but Kevin was on a date.   

But when Rebecca pulls up to the house with Jack's personal effects, there is smoke in the air,  and three first responders in the front yard. The fire JUST happened.  My guess is that Kevin went off on his date and everything was fine. Something happened while he was gone.  Jack, Rebecca, Randall and Kate are at home, the Steelers game is on. Something happens.  Stove fire, perhaps. They all run outside to safety, which explains why Rebecca, Kate and Randall are not smoke covered. Kate freaks because something is still in the house (the mystery dog?) Jack runs in to get him for Kate.  Something happens while he's in there. Explosion, ceiling collapses, trapped by flames, overcome by smoke....something.  Dog runs around from the back yard. He was never actually in the house, which means that Kate sent her father back in for nothing. Life long guilt ensues. Eating for comfort increases.  

Edited September 28, 2017 by ChicksDigScars

[MoonMountain]

5 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

But when Rebecca pulls up to the house with Jack's personal effects, there is smoke in the air,  and three first responders in the front yard. The fire JUST happened.  My guess is that Kevin went off on his date and everything was fine. Something happened while he was gone.  Jack, Rebecca, Randall and Kate are at home, the Steelers game is on. Something happens.  Stove fire, perhaps. They all run outside to safety, which explains why Rebecca, Kate and Randall are not smoke covered. Kate freaks because something is still in the house (the mystery dog?) Jack runs in to get him for Kate.  Something happens while he's in there. Explosion, ceiling collapses, trapped by flames, overcome by smoke....something.  Dog runs around from the back yard. He was never actually in the house, which means that Kate sent her father back in for nothing. Life long guilt ensues. Eating for comfort increases.  

I do think this theory would fit the show really well. I read earlier in this thread someone saying that teenage Kate doesn't seem to be very overweight. Maybe she was heavier as a kid, then lost some of it in high school, and after Jack dies, the eating for comfort due to her guilt begins again.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

But when Rebecca pulls up to the house with Jack's personal effects, there is smoke in the air,  and three first responders in the front yard. The fire JUST happened.  My guess is that Kevin went off on his date and everything was fine. Something happened while he was gone.  Jack, Rebecca, Randall and Kate are at home, the Steelers game is on. Something happens.  Stove fire, perhaps. They all run outside yo safety, which explains why Rebecca, Kate and Randall are not smoke covered. Kate freaks because something is still in the house (the mystery dog?) Jack runs in to get him for Kate.  Something happens while he's in there. Explosion, ceiling collapses, trapped by flames, overcome by smoke, something.  Dog runs around from the back yard. He was never actually in the house, which means that Kate sent her father back in for nothing. Life long guilt ensues. Eating for comfort increases.  

I suspect it's something like that.  I don't think the fire JUST happened, though.  The firetruck was gone.  Nothing was smoldering.  One room was dripping but I'm thinking maybe they meant that to be plumbing related, since it was so localized.  There was a big aerial spotlight shining on the scene as if it was investigation time, and one of the men wore more of a suit and badge, more like an investigator than like the fire fighters.  

I'm guessing the others weren't home, though.  

OH, this show loves their bathroom scenes.  I'm going to guess Jack has to hole up in an upstairs shower or bath, water turned on.  He writes a goodbye note, stuffs the personal items outside a tiny, high window, or into some fireproof case.  Then he dies.  

[StarryNight]

In an interview with Milo V. at the end of last season, he said that we will find out how Jack dies early in the second season. I thought I remembered him say within the first couple of episodes.

In a Today Show interview a week or so before the start of Season 2, Milo V. said that we will not end up hating Miguel. That we will see he is a good guy. So I think that leans towards the fact that the kids don't like him just because he's not Jack.

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

He said it to or about William, maybe when William was planning to go to a nursing home, or maybe later than that when they were on their trip and he didn't want him to die in his sleep or something, I can't pinpoint it but it was referring to not having William die when Randall wasn't present. 

I remembered it as Kate saying it - but this scenario makes a lot more sense.

4 hours ago, Cardie said:

Star Trek vs. Star Wars is the U.N. compared to the vitriol on both sides of the Oxford comma debate. I'm an academic writer and it seems that every publisher is on the opposite side from the previous one. I'm schizophrenic, certainly trained up on the Oxford comma, but find myself using or not using it fairly randomly in personal writing.

Personal writing is a different beast, with different rules, imo.

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

She could have just been shell-shocked, and reality didn't hit her until she saw the burned out house. Not everyone immediately starts grieving when they find out a loved one has died, especially if it was untimely/accidental. It can take hours or even days for some people.

I can only speak for myself - but I've been pretty stone faced with makeup pristine after the death of family members (even untimely ones). There's a) the shock of it b) the need to grasp the details c) the need to take care of others first. The waves of grief and physical manifestations of it only come to me when I'm alone. I don't grieve any less, just more privately. So Mandy's makeup and expression seemed perfectly real to me. 

[KnoxForPres]

I wish the death was a non issue. Fully realizing I'm in the minority I just don't care. I don't like that it compromises most of the talk around the show instead of what actually happens in episodes. I love a good mystery but this is a cheesy and overly dramatic NBC drama. For me, it's not compelling or written well  enough that I gave a damn how Jack died. 

 I don't rewatch so please bear with me if I botch some details  When Kevin busted in Kate and Toby's place that was rude.  Prior to that Toby had been supportive of Kate's outfit and up for the night.  He asks if the date is still on since it's no longer a double and instead of "yeah- it's our birthday let's all go out and have some fun" they give this total d bag "inside joke" of "wellll yayayahhh!"   Exclusionary.   Then the outfit BS and no acknowledgement or care Toby had endorsed it.  Kate changes pronto.  

Now we are at dinner and Toby hears last she bailed on the audition.   He as a mate was probably as excited and nervous and he wanted to know the details. And she had lied to him and disclosed it to Kevin. 

That hurts. And sucks. I am 5 months older than the big 3 (and single never married but do have an amazing boyfriend) so I think through life experience at some point Kate and Kevin would have given this up.  Yadda yadda twins- when you say you'll marry someone shit should get real. 

My takeaway is Toby is not the one for Kate. I don't think she'd be ok with an us versus boyfriend if she really loved someone.  He was second fiddle all night and whether he acted appropriately or not I think he should open his eyes and get the hell out of dodge. 

I loathe the adoption story. Why!  Whether it's a spunky Michelle Tanner or Dylan McKay- no!  The existing family dynamics are good enough!  

I kind of feel sorry for the character Beth and how she's written. I think we are supposed to see her as a sassy good head on her shoulders woman but it's a caricature instead of reality.  I tend to like the actress and wish they could improve on her. 

One thing I'll say- whether it's that people are so moved by this and I am on the other side of the fence going "the fuck?" when I'm supposed to have the please let's never use again "feels"- I watch and then post. So there's that. Something they're doing is working. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by KnoxForPres
Thar isn't that and prob missed others

[debraran]

55 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can only speak for myself - but I've been pretty stone faced with makeup pristine after the death of family members (even untimely ones). There's a) the shock of it b) the need to grasp the details c) the need to take care of others first. The waves of grief and physical manifestations of it only come to me when I'm alone. I don't grieve any less, just more privately. So Mandy's makeup and expression seemed perfectly real to me. 

Mandy said she was told what the scene was and just did it without looking at the house until she had too. She said "she was all over" with different scenes and things out of order, and tried to stay "in the moment". I still feel the 2 scenes are not really related, at least I hope so. There are a lot of episodes to go, dog to be bought, girlfriends to be found, legs to get broken...lol (I hope it wasn't a drunk driving accident with dad)  So maybe the death is from the fire or maybe it happens later, but where do they live after that? I don't remember any flashbacks where they show that, Rebecca is either married or they are younger and he is alive. It's odd to me they never mentioned that aspect later, losing all their stuff. I feel if everything burned, that would be a BIG omission.

The funeral is deliberately vague in initial pictures, photos without dates, mostly backs or sides of people (but no cast on Kevin's leg) and Milo said he watched it being filmed. It was weird. They didn't tell him then how he died, just that there would be a fire in the second season, how they rewrote the scenes, is anyone's guess. I think with all the ideas on here, someone hit on it.  : )

Edited September 28, 2017 by debraran

[CelticBlackCat]

I know Toby has issues with playing second fiddle to Kevin in Kate's eyes, but it was both their birthdays, not just any other day, that he threw his tantrum and walked out on the dinner.  He probably isn't right for Kate, I agree.  She pretty much told him straight up at their weight loss meeting where they first met that she couldn't do this.  She's told him how much her brothers, especially Kevin, mean to her.

They are not married.  Just because you have a new boyfriend or girlfriend, that doesn't trump your family dynamics.  Does Kate even have an engagement ring?  They don't have a date set.  They became engaged in order to glom on to each other and it doesn't look like there's any planning going on.  Kate now all of a sudden wants to become the next Adele.

If and when Kate and Toby (I love it when some of your peeps accidentally type "Tody") they will be no more, but Kevin and Randall will still be her brothers.

[Cardie]

I wonder whether Rebecca's returning to the ashes of their home, rather than going to Miguel's, is because she wants to be there in case Kevin returns before someone can find him and tell him. Whatever the connection between Jack's death and this fire, Kevin has been out for only a few hours without finding out about either tragedy. So things had to have gone down fast.  He seems way too happy making out with Sophie for anything serious to have been wrong with his Dad before he left to go on his date.

[tennisgurl]

I think the adoption story could be really compelling (especially if they adopt a kid of a different race, and maybe exploring how that experience has changed since Randall was a kid and how it hasn't) as long as we dont end up in a classic Cousin Oliver style situation. The show is only on its second season, we dont need a new cute kid to bring in better ratings yet!

[kili]

Quote

One more thing I just thought of -- Jack could have been in a different room of the house that the fire hadn't reached yet, but since the rest of the house was on fire, he couldn't just go downstairs and out the front door. Maybe the door to that room was closed, and he knew if he opened it, he'd be letting in a ton of smoke/fire.

Maybe Jack was sleeping in the basement in Kevin's room? Kevin has a broken leg and navigating the steps to the basement may have proven to be "too tricky", so he decided to stay with a friend (maybe his girlfriend). Rebecca and Jack are still "working through things" and maybe he has been sleeping on the couch. Kate suggests that he sleep in Kevin's room since Kevin isn't there. The fire happens at night and Kevin is elsewhere. With only one route out of the basement (up the stairs which are on fire - probably because of the dodgy washing machine) Jack is trapped, but everybody else can jump out of various windows.

Although, wouldn't Kevin have found out shortly after his house burnt down? Maybe they didn't have cell phones, but the news of a house burning down in a suburb would spread like fire and he should have heard within the hour. Maybe he's on a field trip.

In other news - why do they still have the Pilgrim hat if the house burned down? Maybe Jack rushed into to save the stupid traditional hat and threw it out the windows before he collapsed. That would definitely lend more context to Kevin not wanting to share the hat.

Or maybe Jack was working construction, was inspecting the roofline after the crew went home, fell of a ladder and slowly bled to death.   Miguel was supposed to be there, but went home early. Rebecca shows up after the fire to tell him about the fire (after leaving the kids with Miguel and finding out where Jack is) and found him dead.  When Randall saw him during his Yoga Shake high, Jack was on a ladder.

[KnoxForPres]

39 minutes ago, CelticBlackCat said:

I know Toby has issues with playing second fiddle to Kevin in Kate's eyes, but it was both their birthdays, not just any other day, that he threw his tantrum and walked out on the dinner.  He probably isn't right for Kate, I agree.  She pretty much told him straight up at their weight loss meeting where they first met that she couldn't do this.  She's told him how much her brothers, especially Kevin, mean to her.

They are not married.  Just because you have a new boyfriend or girlfriend, that doesn't trump your family dynamics.  Does Kate even have an engagement ring?  They don't have a date set.  They became engaged in order to glom on to each other and it doesn't look like there's any planning going on.  Kate now all of a sudden wants to become the next Adele.

If and when Kate and Toby (I love it when some of your peeps accidentally type "Tody") they will be no more, but Kevin and Randall will still be her brothers.

I agree with you. For me it doesn't matter if they're dating or  at the altar- if she really loved Tody (for you) it would be about bringing him into the fold and not driving home how close they are. I can't imagine excluding anyone I loved.  They need to break up.