S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Keepitmoving]

1 minute ago, Chinspinner said:

Yeah, I wrote it, and all I meant is the following: Sansa has history and baggage with Baelish, and how ever much her logical mind knows not to trust him, her emotional mind may stand in her way. Therefore, it struck me that it was likely to be with the help of Arya and Bran that she was able accept him for what he is. Furthermore, the scene in the previous episode where Arya hands her the knife is strongly indicative that this is how events unfolded. 

I can get with this view, because you can see how conflicted she was in the last scene with Arya. It is Arya who asks Sansa if she is alright, then Sansa says something about how weird it feels because she thinks he loved her in his own way. 

[Direwolf]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:49 PM, feet said:

After the Jon/Dany love scene, I was wondering if any of the chemistry was real?

Turns out that Kit has dating Rose Leslie (Ygrette) for a while and just bought a house together...

Wasn't Kit dating Emilia before he started dating Rose?

[madam magpie]

53 minutes ago, Direwolf said:

Wasn't Kit dating Emilia before he started dating Rose?

From what I've read, according to Kit and Emilia, they've never dated. 

[Chinspinner]

17 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

From what I've read, according to Kit and Emilia, they've never dated. 

Would they even have met? Wasn't one in Ireland and the other in Morocco or something? 

[madam magpie]

4 minutes ago, Chinspinner said:

Would they even have met? Wasn't one in Ireland and the other in Morocco or something? 

Good point...I don't know. I think all the dating rumors started with that Rolling Stone article several years ago where the photographer told Kit to kiss Emilia? Something like that? Because, yeah. It's not like they'd even been onscreen together before this season, had they? Though I'm sure they'd met at table reads, events, etc. 

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I never said this in any of my posts, that was someone else I guess.  I would not have posted anything about Arya being all knowing compared to Sansa because I don't see Sansa as dumb, never have. I saw her as being way too superficial and not understanding that girl, you need to get some skills to look after your own self and not rely on some prince out there. I never thought of Sansa as in dumb, meaning, she can't learn no matter what you do. I just felt her attitude and outlook on life is what held her back. Even her mother had some grit, and I was just waiting for Sansa to get some and here we are, she is Lady of Winterfell and she earned it even though it should have been hers simply as her birthright IMO. When she asked Arya at the end if she was bothered by her being the Lady, Arya truthfully answers that she would not have made a very good lady. But I thought, not only that, Sansa is in line before Arya for that position, John shouldn't even be in line before any of the other Stark kids for that position because he supposed to be a "bastard."

I guess I need to be clear about what position you're talking about.  If it's Lord of Winterfell, then I agree with you. However, Jon hasn't laid claim to that title and no true born Stark has offered it. If you're talking Warden of the North, that title appears to be given by the crown and Winterfell, I'm guessing, is the seat of power. If you're talking KiTN, that seems to be given by the lords and ladies in the north. In addition to traditionally being someone with Stark blood, they seem to attach strong warrior and military skills to the one bearing the title, along with solid leadership skills.

WRT the title of Lady of Winterfell being Sansa's by birthright, I disagree. In another world, Sansa would have been married off to some noble and would have been the lady of his house. The title of LoW would have gone to Robb's wife, followed by Bran's or Rickon's wife had Robb died without issue. But since that's not the way the cookie crumbled, Sansa fell into it by circumstance.

[meep.meep]

17 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Here's another Isaac interview, which makes it clear the scene was just Sansa asking Bran for help and he doesn't know much beyond that.

 

The knife is the key, people. Arya gave it to Sansa in their last scene in 7.06. Why would Sansa give it back to Arya or leave it in Arya's room if she was that afraid Arya would murder her? And Arya couldn't have known Littlefinger lied about the knife to their mother unless Bran told her. The exact order of events between the Starklings is left up to the audience but the last scene is clear that everyone except Littlefinger was on the same page. (The whole thing is meant to mirror his betrayal of Ned in the throne room, where all the baddies were secretly working together from Baelish to Slynt to Cersei.)

This is why it's too bad that they are thundering through everything in order to limit the number of episodes.  A few scenes with the sisters and Bran interacting, after all the years they have been separated, wouldn't have been that expensive, and would have added to the plot.  Just one, where Sansa gives the knife back to Arya, would have made everything stronger.

[Chinspinner]

37 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

This is why it's too bad that they are thundering through everything in order to limit the number of episodes.  A few scenes with the sisters and Bran interacting, after all the years they have been separated, wouldn't have been that expensive, and would have added to the plot.  Just one, where Sansa gives the knife back to Arya, would have made everything stronger.

I agree. While this would have ruined the reveal, it would have also felt less confused and less manipulative of the audience. Then again, the writers have really created a rod for their own back with (as someone aptly named him) Google Bran (Deus Ex Machina Bran might be an even more apt title, although not as pithy). 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner

[madam magpie]

49 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

This is why it's too bad that they are thundering through everything in order to limit the number of episodes.  A few scenes with the sisters and Bran interacting, after all the years they have been separated, wouldn't have been that expensive, and would have added to the plot.  Just one, where Sansa gives the knife back to Arya, would have made everything stronger.

They definitely needed something. I think, though, that the show wanted to fool the audience as much as Littlefinger. And that's ok...it is fiction, after all. Surprises and misdirection are good. Where they blew it was in the set-up. Knowing now that the Starks were in it together, we should be able to rewatch the scenes leading up to the climax and see it coming. It's fine to misdirect early on as long as you also plant real clues to the truth. Because they didn't, we have no way of knowing what really happened, when Sansa/Arya got on the same page, how Bran got involved, etc. Deleted scenes don't mean much to me because they aren't really part of the story. It matters to the plot and the girls' characters whether they were really on the verge of killing each other, but I have no idea if they were or not.

ETA: The knife is an interesting clue. Someone mentioned that somewhere; I didn't notice myself. The fact that the last thing we saw was Arya give it to Sansa and then in the trial/execution scene Arya has it back does tell us that something transpired between them. But I think that's WAY too subtle and much too easily missed. And it still doesn't explain who was playing whom when.

Edited September 1, 2017 by madam magpie

[Chinspinner]

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

They definitely needed something. I think, though, that the show wanted to fool the audience as much as Littlefinger. And that's ok...it is fiction, after all. Surprises and misdirection are good. Where they blew it was in the set-up. Knowing now that the Starks were in it together, we should be able to rewatch the scenes leading up to the climax and see it coming. It's fine to misdirect early on as long as you also plant real clues to the truth. Because they didn't, we have no way of knowing what really happened, when Sansa/Arya got on the same page, how Bran got involved, etc. Deleted scenes don't mean much to me because they aren't really part of the story. It matters to the plot and the girls' characters whether they were really on the verge of killing each other, but I have no idea if they were or not.

ETA: The knife is an interesting clue. Someone mentioned that somewhere; I didn't notice myself. The fact that the last thing we saw was Arya give it to Sansa and then in the trial/execution scene Arya has it back does tell us that something transpired between them. But I think that's WAY too subtle and much too easily missed.

I hate to be THE twat, but when I saw her enter with the knife, I was somewhat clued into how this would play out; but only because it was a trope-ish (new word) bait and switch. 

[madam magpie]

Just now, Chinspinner said:

I hate to be THE twat, but when I saw her enter with the knife, I was somewhat clued into how this would play out; but only because it was a trope-ish (new word) bait and switch. 

That's fair! A friend of mine said that as soon as he saw Bran at the table, he knew Sansa was not going after Arya. But I still think it matters when and how that happened because how close Sansa/Arya came to killing each other does mean something important for both characters.

[Chinspinner]

15 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

That's fair! A friend of mine said that as soon as he saw Bran at the table, he knew Sansa was not going after Arya. But I still think it matters when and how that happened because how close Sansa/Arya came to killing each other does mean something important for both characters.

As per my previous posts, I agree entirely, the whole thing felt awkward and a little cheap to me (see previous posts). 

Edit: I would add that in previous series of GoT I would not expect the trope to be followed, rather I would expect it to be subverted... but in this series, less so. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner

[Chinspinner]

Actually let me add a post about this; namely the debate over the Baelish/ Arya/ Sansa sub-plot. 

Personally, I think the issue is this: GoT was always unpredictable, it subverted trope after trope, it led the audience into a false sense of security. In this series/ season, in particular, rather than subverting tropes, it has used them several times, and it has also relied upon deus ex machina repeatedly. As a small example, would Benjen ever have reappeared in the books in such a casual and flippant manner? 

While the show remains great, it has come to rely on those tropes US TV writers tend to use, rather than the subversion of tropes Martin tended to use.   

Edited September 1, 2017 by Chinspinner

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Chinspinner said:

as someone aptly named him Google Bran 

Wiki Bran is more suitable since there are gaps in his knowledge that require outside editing....

[PatsyandEddie]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

That's fair! A friend of mine said that as soon as he saw Bran at the table, he knew Sansa was not going after Arya. But I still think it matters when and how that happened because how close Sansa/Arya came to killing each other does mean something important for both characters.

I knew as soon as Arya handed the knife to Sansa hilt first as a sign of fealty and trust. Sansa must have realized that Arya meant her no harm and left it behind. 

[Chinspinner]

1 minute ago, PatsyandEddie said:

I knew as soon as Arya handed the knife to Sansa hilt first as a sign of fealty and trust. Sansa must have realized that Arya meant her no harm and left it behind. 

Yes, and this was purposefully left ambiguous, which was good writing. What was BAD writing was omitting everything that followed so as to deceive the audience. 

[JustaPerson]

[BitterApple]

It's weird how Jon doesn't look Targaryen at all. I understand dark genes dominate over light ones. But a platinum haired guy and a light golden brown haired woman wouldn't produce a son with jet black hair and eyes. If they wanted to make it believable they should've casted a Lyanna who looked more like Uncle Benjen. 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, madam magpie said:

They definitely needed something. I think, though, that the show wanted to fool the audience as much as Littlefinger. And that's ok...it is fiction, after all. Surprises and misdirection are good. Where they blew it was in the set-up. Knowing now that the Starks were in it together, we should be able to rewatch the scenes leading up to the climax and see it coming. It's fine to misdirect early on as long as you also plant real clues to the truth. Because they didn't, we have no way of knowing what really happened, when Sansa/Arya got on the same page, how Bran got involved, etc. Deleted scenes don't mean much to me because they aren't really part of the story. It matters to the plot and the girls' characters whether they were really on the verge of killing each other, but I have no idea if they were or not.

ETA: The knife is an interesting clue. Someone mentioned that somewhere; I didn't notice myself. The fact that the last thing we saw was Arya give it to Sansa and then in the trial/execution scene Arya has it back does tell us that something transpired between them. But I think that's WAY too subtle and much too easily missed. And it still doesn't explain who was playing whom when.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head as to why most people felt a little cheated. I followed the knife, both when Bran gave it (hesitatingly) to Arya, and when Arya gave it hilt first to Sansa. But, I think that by itself was a wee bit too subtle. I was okay with it, and was okay with being manipulated, but you are right - it would have been much better to have something to look back at and say THERE!.

As a fan of Babylon 5, I really loved that seemingly unimportant statements paid off, sometimes seasons down the line. That was fine, connective, writing.

On a different note, my feeling is that Sansa sent Brianne off because it would make Littlefinger even more sure that his plan was working.

[Popples]

On 8/31/2017 at 6:57 PM, LanceM said:

The one thing that would have made that scene even better was if Missandei stood up and announced all her titles as she arrived just to annoy Cersei some more.

That would have been the only time I would have enjoyed it, just to see Cersei's expression while Missandei rattled them off.

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's weird how Jon doesn't look Targaryen at all. I understand dark genes dominate over light ones. But a platinum haired guy and a light golden brown haired woman wouldn't produce a son with jet black hair and eyes. If they wanted to make it believable they should've casted a Lyanna who looked more like Uncle Benjen. 

I thought Lyanna's hair looked pretty dark, much more so than Ned's, and she does have brown eyes. Ignoring the Viserys wig, the rhaegar actor does look like both Harry Lloyd and Kitten. That was good casting, even if he didn't look as handsome as he should have*. I still can't believe they used the same damn wig, though.  

*Harry Lloyd is a very pretty man and even in the Targ wig he still pulled it off better than Rhaegar.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Lady S.

[NeenerNeener]

18 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's weird how Jon doesn't look Targaryen at all. I understand dark genes dominate over light ones. But a platinum haired guy and a light golden brown haired woman wouldn't produce a son with jet black hair and eyes. If they wanted to make it believable they should've casted a Lyanna who looked more like Uncle Benjen. 

It's not a 100% given that dark hair is always dominant.  I have a brunette brother with a blonde wife, and all of their children are blond. I know a number of brunette Italian women with blond husbands and blond children, and a  few dark-haired/blond spouse combos where the children started out blonde but eventually became brunettes as they aged.

[Hava]

23 hours ago, madam magpie said:

That's fair! A friend of mine said that as soon as he saw Bran at the table, he knew Sansa was not going after Arya. But I still think it matters when and how that happened because how close Sansa/Arya came to killing each other does mean something important for both characters.

Yes, exactly. I'm still thinking about this storyline. I REALLY don't want the show to suggest that the Stark sisters were actually going to kill each other before Bran stepped in. 

Arya and Sansa may have not gotten along growing up and may have even disliked each other, but, before this season, I never questioned that they loved each other. They're still SISTERS! I think the only truly awful thing that Sansa did was her role in the murder of the butcher's son, but, even then, I couldn't imagine that Arya would kill Sansa over that. 

Sadly, the show did not do a good job in letting us know what was truly going on between them. Either they were acting in private (why?) or they truly were looking to kill the other (why?). Neither of which makes sense.

[Calamity Jane]

2 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

It's not a 100% given that dark hair is always dominant.  I have a brunette brother with a blonde wife, and all of their children are blond. I know a number of brunette Italian women with blond husbands and blond children, and a  few dark-haired/blond spouse combos where the children started out blonde but eventually became brunettes as they aged.

Both my husband and my son started out pretty much platinum blond and gradually darkened as they got older.  By 40, both were quite dark haired.  

[Tyro49]

What will Jon do when he finds out who he really is? Will he believe it? Will he ignore it? (He never wanted to be king.) What will Dany do? How will others react?

Euron conspired with Circe to leave the confab and go get the Golden company, but that was before he saw the wight; that question "can they swim?" seemed mighty serious. Who knows what he's actually doing now?

What on earth is Visarion spewing? Liquid nitrogen? It looks cold and frosty; shouldn't that have reinforced the Wall, rather than bringing it down??

Is Circei in fact pregnant? Will Bronn follow Jaime? 

If Bran wargs into Visareon will the Night King know?

Where are the remaining Dire Wolves? Ghost and Nymeria? Will they take part in the coming actions?

Will Jon and Dany have a child? Boy or girl?

Does Arya aspire to be like Lady Brienne?

Who will be paired up when it's all over?

Who will die? We know the ending will be bittersweet.

Will there be any magic left in the world, or will it be destroyed for good this time?

(Should we give the middle finger to LittleFinger?)

Does the Night King want Circei?

Is it true they're starting filming in October, which is now next month? That sounds good for next summer.

I really thought Circe would kill Jaime this time, just for a moment.......

I really thought the WW would make for Castle Black and then Winterfell, but as some of you have suggested, maybe not....... but that will leave Jaime on the wrong track.........

[Casually Observant]

31 minutes ago, Tyro49 said:

Euron conspired with Circe to leave the confab and go get the Golden company, but that was before he saw the wight; that question "can they swim?" seemed mighty serious. Who knows what he's actually doing now?

What on earth is Visarion spewing? Liquid nitrogen? It looks cold and frosty; shouldn't that have reinforced the Wall, rather than bringing it down??

After seeing the wight in action and asking about their swimming abilities, I believe Euron did actually decide to leave for the Iron Islands. He's always been in it strictly for himself. Cersei looked put out and annoyed by his earlier grandstanding and intimidation attempts toward Tyrion and also his statement about leaving and taking his toys home. I think Cersei's comments to Jaime that Euron's actions were all a  pre-planned fake-out and that 'No one walks away from me!' was a lie. 

In my opinion, the flying dead dragon Viserion is spewing blue flame, the hottest flame there is. Otherwise, how could it have cut through the thick, centuries old ice wall like it was butter?

Edited September 3, 2017 by Casually Observant

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

If Bran wargs into Visareon will the Night King know?

Oh, I like that idea. 

[Macbeth]

On 8/28/2017 at 9:39 AM, penelope79 said:

I found this scene funny :D :

Jon: We should sail together... to give a better impression (looking longingly at Dany)

Jorah: Or you can fly to Winterfell with your Dragon, to be safer (please choose my approach, Khaleesi!)

Jon: It's your choice, of course... but we should totally sail together (another look and no subtlety)

Dany: We'll sail together (looking back at Jon the same way he does)

Jorah: #%?^£"

 

I was thrilled to have Jorah back so He could be the war-time consiglieri  (Varys and Tyrion are better peace-time consiglieris).  But his love for Dany is clouding his advice as well.  (Tyrion had a conflict with his love for his brother.)  Once Jorah spoke - I was like - just sit in the corner with the others and we will let you know when we need you to use your sword. 

[ChipBach]

On 9/2/2017 at 2:13 PM, Hava said:

Yes, exactly. I'm still thinking about this storyline. I REALLY don't want the show to suggest that the Stark sisters were actually going to kill each other before Bran stepped in. 

Arya and Sansa may have not gotten along growing up and may have even disliked each other, but, before this season, I never questioned that they loved each other. They're still SISTERS! I think the only truly awful thing that Sansa did was her role in the murder of the butcher's son, but, even then, I couldn't imagine that Arya would kill Sansa over that. 

Sadly, the show did not do a good job in letting us know what was truly going on between them. Either they were acting in private (why?) or they truly were looking to kill the other (why?). Neither of which makes sense.

The only plausible answer is that the ladies played it out knowing the LF had many little birds.  The maiden, the maestor, etc.  I would also guess that they needed to feel each other out knowing how cunning the LF game is played.  Arya knows how to sell the big lie given her faceless training, it was just method acting to ensure LF didn't get a whiff. 

 

On 9/3/2017 at 1:56 PM, Casually Observant said:

After seeing the wight in action and asking about their swimming abilities, I believe Euron did actually decide to leave for the Iron Islands. He's always been in it strictly for himself. Cersei looked put out and annoyed by his earlier grandstanding and intimidation attempts toward Tyrion and also his statement about leaving and taking his toys home. I think Cersei's comments to Jaime that Euron's actions were all a  pre-planned fake-out and that 'No one walks away from me!' was a lie. 

In my opinion, the flying dead dragon Viserion is spewing blue flame, the hottest flame there is. Otherwise, how could it have cut through the thick, centuries old ice wall like it was butter?

It is hard to believe that Cersei would have planned the deception with Urine (love that) on the pretense of actually seeing a wight.  She looked completely surprised by the little zombie AND to go to the meeting expecting a wight and assume they do not swim (which was the lynch-pin to her and Urines fake out) seems a bit too clever a plan.  So I agree, if the writing is good, she is either delusional or really playing Jaime to the hilt.  Stick a fork in her, I think shes done...

Edited September 5, 2017 by ChipBach
I forgot stuff

[Daisy]

On 9/2/2017 at 0:41 PM, NeenerNeener said:

It's not a 100% given that dark hair is always dominant.  I have a brunette brother with a blonde wife, and all of their children are blond. I know a number of brunette Italian women with blond husbands and blond children, and a  few dark-haired/blond spouse combos where the children started out blonde but eventually became brunettes as they aged.

I think on the show (that's how Ned/Jon clued in to Cersei and the kids) was that all of Robert's bastards were dark of hair and Joffrey, Mycerella and Tomnen were fair of hair. I'm not sure about Aerys's wife - but the incestus-ness of the Targs is what aided with the Silver-hair/light-ish coloured eyes. 

So i always figured Elia's (and Lyanna's)'s kids would be darker coloured. 
Catelyn's colouring is somewhat prominent with Robb + Sansa but as they got older on the show - their colouring went all aburn-y not still "carrots!!" to channel Anne of Green gables. 

[MrsR]

If there's a brunette who has blonde children that means that the brunette has one brunette gene and one blonde gene. They are passing on the blonde gene to their blonde children. If they continued to have children eventually they would pass on a brunette gene and have a brunette child.

[madam magpie]

20 minutes ago, MrsR said:

If there's a brunette who has blonde children that means that the brunette has one brunette gene and one blonde gene. They are passing on the blonde gene to their blonde children. If they continued to have children eventually they would pass on a brunette gene and have a brunette child.

Yes to the first bit; I think not necessarily to the second. Conceivably the brunette could pass on only the blond gene forever. It's not like you run out. Statistically, it's unlikely, however.

All a dark-haired Jon Snow means is that his mother gave him a dark-haired gene. Cersei/Jamie are both blond (ish), so neither has a dark-haired gene to pass on...I think. (If I'm remembering high school biology right, blond hair and blue eyes are recessive. Dark hair and brown eyes are dominant.) It would definitely be odd that only Robert's "legitimate" kids were blond and fair.

Edited September 5, 2017 by madam magpie

[Tyro49]

Why does it have to be Jon or Dany? Why can't they co-rule, like William and Mary?

[enoughcats]

On 9/2/2017 at 0:41 PM, NeenerNeener said:

It's weird how Jon doesn't look Targaryen at all. I understand dark genes dominate over light ones

-They could have managed it (too late now).  In my family, early 1900s, a daughter died at a young age by drinking the equivalent of drano.  Her mother was just in the other room.  Her mother's hair turned white as it grew out from that day.  

Jon met the dragon, and petted it and his hair turned white....

As scientifically realistic as some  other things that have happened.

[madam magpie]

7 hours ago, Tyro49 said:

Why does it have to be Jon or Dany? Why can't they co-rule, like William and Mary?

They can. It just seems unlikely.

[Mabinogia]

After all they go through fighting together, and other things, and being relatives, so Jon is a Targ, I can see Dany deciding to not pursue making the North part of the 7 Kingdoms and letting Jon reign as King in the North while she is Queen in the South. The only thing I see being a problem is Jon doesn't really want to be a King so he may say no thanks. IDK if Dany would make the same offer to anyone else.

[madam magpie]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

After all they go through fighting together, and other things, and being relatives, so Jon is a Targ, I can see Dany deciding to not pursue making the North part of the 7 Kingdoms and letting Jon reign as King in the North while she is Queen in the South. The only thing I see being a problem is Jon doesn't really want to be a King so he may say no thanks. IDK if Dany would make the same offer to anyone else.

For sure. I just don't believe they'll both live to see it. This would be great, though!

[Mabinogia]

38 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I just don't believe they'll both live to see it.

*sticks fingers in ears* LALALALALA I can't hear you!!!!!

[Pindrop]

Overall I have not enjoyed this season (I am probably repeating some points made by others): - 

• Known characters have acted out-of-character to suit the plot. Strong characters have been diminished. Character motivations are confused.  
• The world has become small and safe due to repeated time jumps and an absence of threat (who dies this season? Why is the plot armour so thick for certain characters?). 
• This season has relied too much upon genre tropes (which actually contradict the previous lore at times). 
• A number of the plots have been nonsensical; they seem to be designed to hit an action scene without rhyme or reason. Other plots have felt manipulative of the audience. In fact, the entire plot seems to have been designed around a few action set pieces that felt like fan-service, hence how the pacing felt off. 

I think last season had faults, but this season was the turning point where the show is limping towards an underwhelming conclusion. I am unsure if I will be there for that conclusion, largely because it is such a huge fall from the quality of the early seasons. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Pindrop

[Casually Observant]

9 hours ago, Pindrop said:

Overall I have not enjoyed this season (I am probably repeating some points made by others): - 

• Known characters have acted out-of-character to suit the plot. Strong characters have been diminished. Character motivations are confused.  
• The world has become small and safe due to repeated time jumps and an absence of threat (who dies this season? Why is the plot armour so thick for certain characters?). 
• This season has relied too much upon genre tropes (which actually contradict the previous lore at times). 
• A number of the plots have been nonsensical; they seem to be designed to hit an action scene without rhyme or reason. Other plots have felt manipulative of the audience. In fact, the entire plot seems to have been designed around a few action set pieces that felt like fan-service, hence how the pacing felt off. 

I think last season had faults, but this season was the turning point where the show is limping towards an underwhelming conclusion. I am unsure if I will be there for that conclusion, largely because it is such a huge fall from the quality of the early seasons. 

Well, I disagree. Awesome story telling, cinematography, CGI and acting were had this season just like previous seasons. Some of the episodes were so compelling (to me) that I  shouted at the TV, cried in misery to what I had just watched and in one, had to pause the episode due to the tension on screen and go do something else for about 15 minutes while taking deep breaths so I could steel myself before I could conjure the courage to go back and watch the conclusion.

I think that you could be right on some points, but overall it has been exemplary and I have no complaints - except I wanted more episodes and longer episodes!  I will sorely miss this show when it finishes after next season.  I'm sure there are many more like me out there.

[SimoneS]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:47 PM, Tyro49 said:

Why does it have to be Jon or Dany? Why can't they co-rule, like William and Mary?

I expect that Jon and Dany will end up ruling together.

Edited September 9, 2017 by SimoneS

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I expect that Jon and Dany will end up ruling together.

I don't have any expectations - except that given GRRM's style, I expect there'll be a few remote controls thrown at TVs. ;)

[paigow]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I expect that Jon and Dany will end up ruling together.

Or BOTH of them DIE....25% chance

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Or BOTH of them DIE....25% chance

Yeah this is my expectation or at least for House Targaryen to not be restored. 

The physical representation of this will be when KL, the Targaryen capital, is destroyed but Winterfell , the Stark home, remains after the war 

the last book in the series was originally called A Time for Wolves not A Time for Dragons 

[MisterBluxom]

Sorry I couldn't find a better thread in which to post this. But I'd just like to say that I've been binge watching this show recently and I've tried to compare it to some of the other shows that I've always considered to be the best TV shows ever made.

Seems to me this show is heads and shoulders above any other show. The acting, costumes, story and script, locations, direction, ...

Oh Hell! Just everything about it makes it the best TV show I've ever seen. I never really appreciated this before. But now, it seems real clear to me. The producers and directors (Oh Hell! Everyone) involved in making this show need to be recognized as really the very best team there has ever been. Nothing compares to this show. Nothing is anywhere nearly as good. I'm not high on any drugs now. It's just kind of hit me how truly magnificent this show is. I'm very happy they even got Ian McShane to appear in one episode. I think that is only fitting. I can't exactly explain why. I suppose I just think he is one of the best actors ever. But it's probably just that I like him.

 

I especially appreciate whoever decided on the various plot lines. People were disappointed back in S1 when Ned Stark was executed. But now I see that as just a setup for the eventual payback of seeing those responsible getting what they deserve.

 

I guess the next major plot line will be to see what happens to Circe. Isn't it sweet that her brother seems to have abandoned the "most murderous bitch ever"? I'm looking forward to seeing Jaime and Tyrion living the rest of their days together and being happy. I'm anticipating just what kind of end TPTB have in store for Circe. I will have to go visit the thread titled Season 8 Speculation. Maybe I can post something in there about my ideas for what would be appropriate for Circe.

Edited October 8, 2017 by MissBluxom

[GrailKing]

Know what I just realized ( not read every threads in every group ) why wasn't a Maester of the Citidel not at that dragon pit????

[Stephanie1216]

On 8/27/2017 at 10:45 PM, kieyra said:

I never believed they'd have Jon and Dany get it on. And when they did, I found myself squicked not because of the incest (the show has kinda numbed me to it) but because I still think of those two as kids playing at dress-up Queen and King. Like I was watching teenagers. 

We are somewhat numb to the incest but Dany and Jon are THE MOST BORING characters on tv.

they are only cool when teamed up with someone else. Ex: Jon and Sam, Jon and Igritte, I guess that's it. I liked Dany when she was in love with Drogo, her and Dario were hot, I enjoy it when her and Misandre are just being girlfriends, braiding each other's hair, talking about men or in the first dragon pit reaching out for each other and holding hands because they are real friends. Dany has more chemistry with her girlfriend than with Jon

On 8/27/2017 at 10:42 PM, BitterApple said:

Dammit, Game of Thrones *in my best Tyra Banks voice* I WAS ROOTING FOR YOU!!!!!!

The good: So many feels in the scenes with Cersei/Tyrion, Jon/Theon and finally Sansa/Arya on the Winterfell balcony. When Cersei couldn't bring herself to murder the younger brother she hated, and when Arya wistfully stated how much she missed Ned, that was like a sucker punch to the gut. Also, Jaime riding solo to Dragonstone and the accompanying realization that winter is finally here.

Now for the bad:

Wayyyyy too much time wasted on that stupid meeting when what we really wanted to see was boatsex and the Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback. Everyone expected such a big scene and it was kind of underwhelming. Jon and Dany look beautiful together but why did we get thirty seconds of them, but five minutes of Greyworm and Missandei? 

I also feel like Bran and Samwell felt disingenuous. Bran is all of a sudden revealing family secrets to Sam, (a guy he met one time), about Jon's parentage, but hasn't told Arya or Sansa? Ummm, okay.

The wall coming down lacked emotional punch because this is like the eighty billionth time we've ended on a dragon scene. 

Overall grade for finale: C+, but still better than anything else on tv. 

I agree about too much time on Grey Worm and M. I have yet to watch that scene and not FF. Who knew Jons butt was so big? Danys had two good lovers and Jon has had one. Their sex should have been much sexier. Not boring missionary, nor wild whorehouse sex but sexy, like the couple on Outlander, now they have chemistry.

[Primetimer]

The penultimate season finale moves a bunch of pieces around to get where it needed to be: with an army of zombies about to destroy absolutely everything. Finally!

View the full article

[Meredith Quill]

On 17/11/2017 at 8:22 PM, ArmoPrincess said:

Missed these recaps - is the funding site legit?

http://forums.previously.tv/announcement/43-announcing-the-campaign-for-the-return-of-the-epic-old-school-recaps/

[JennyFF]

I always felt like Arya didn't want to be a lady in the way that Sansa wanted to be a lady, and definitely didn't want to be married off to a convenient suitor who would expect her to be like Sansa.  That doesn't mean she wouldn't want to be in a relationship or married to someone who she fancies and who respects her for who she is, and most importantly isn't up himself like Joffrey was.  It's also worth remembering she was pre-puberty then, so like many young girls, the benefits of boys hadn't presented themselves yet.   If either of the Stark girls were to marry Gendry, assuming they both survive, it would be Arya.  He wouldn't expect her to be all ladylike, and he isn't up himself.   If Gendry survives, he's bound to be made a Baratheon by whoever does end up King/Queen.

I'm a bit sad to see the end of Littlefinger, but it was his time.  He'd overplayed his hand, and with Bran able to fact-check everything he says, his former strength at manipulation was his inevitable down-fall.  I do think that the Stark sisters were genuinely bickering at first, but they knew deep down that they needed to be allies, and as many have said, Sansa knew Arya didn't want to become the Lady of Winterfell.  They'll have come to this realisation after the last showdown we saw, and sorted it out between themselves.  Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I know some people feel it's cheating not to show us that resolution, but it was apparent in the confrontation with Littlefinger, so showing it in advance would only have ruined the tension of that scene.  Personally, I was fairly confident that Sansa was putting on a show as the scene opened, but I liked that I wasn't 100% sure.

The Dragonpit scene and the exchanges in the run-up to it were immense.  It felt like glorious payback for years of investing in this large group of characters.  I'm another fan of Qyborn's excitement at seeing the dragons, then intrigue at the zombie hand.  I hope he's going to start scheming on ways to destroy the undead.  He may abandon Cersei, because let's face it, he's only hanging around with her because it gives him access to fun things, and there are more fun things further north.

I enjoyed Jon's exasperated geography teacher impersonation in response to Cersei saying she thinks the whole thing is a joke.  It's like he's trying to convince a bunch of spoilt teenagers that their exams are more important than whatever reality tv show it is they're currently distracted by.  By that token, I don't buy into the idea that Jon's stupid.  He's definitely naïve, and prone to overlooking the significance of the petty squabbles that everyone else is caught up in, but only because he knows just how serious the real threat is.   He underestimates how important those things are to everyone else, but ultimately, he's the one who's right about it all.   

He was also right not to lie to Cersei.  He could have said something a bit more vague along the lines of how she'd proven herself to be a bad ruler so far, with no interest in the people, so he doesn't want her to stay queen, but she has the opportunity to prove him wrong during the Great War, and that if she helped, she'd guarantee her mercy or something a bit more wishy-washy, but he'd lose a lot of respect if he was to go along with the idea that he was happy for her to stay Queen.  She caused too much hurt to his family, never mind the people, for that to work.   

We know now that she was lying all along, and getting him to promise to stay out of a future was a trap she was laying for him.  If he had lied, she'd have been able to use it against him when he did inevitably side against her.  The honour and nobility of the Starks is one of their strengths and one of the reasons people rally around them.  Anything that could undermine that would do them damage. He has good instincts for what is important in the long-term, whether it's prioritising the fight against the army of the undead, or how a world where they can't trust each other doesn't do good people any favours, but this gives him a blind-spot when it comes to short-term repercussions.  Luckily for him, the short-term repercussion was getting Dany even more interested than ever before!

I'm feeling like Cersei is at the end of her arc too, as she backs herself further and further into a corner.  I don't know why anyone believes her nonsense any more.  You can half-understand Jamie, because he's been in denial about her for years and had so much to lose by admitting it to himself, but are we supposed to believe Tyrion fell for it?  I wonder if he calculated that letting Dany and Jon believe she was going to support them was the best way to move on from an unhelpful stand-off?

Gendry wouldn't have gone to the Dragonpit, because he's officially still just a smith who is handy in a fight.  If they had sense, they've have sent him ahead to Winterfell with Dragonglass to start making suitable weapons, but I think the appeal of having Arya see him arrive there is too strong for it to happen off-camera.