S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

Why did Bran reveal Jon's parentage to Sam, whom he barely knows, but not to Arya or Sansa?

What's fucking worse is that when Sansa said she didn't know what 3 eyed raven meant, Bran acted all assy like she was too dumb to understand.  The Sam shows up and says he doesn't understand what that means and Bran gives him the SIMPLE EXPLANATION THAT HE SHOULD HAVE GIVEN SANSA 4 EPISODES AGO.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

While I'm glad LF is finally gone, I was a bit annoyed that his whole trial's evidence against him consisted of 'Bran says so." If that was all that was needed to convince the Northern and the Vale lords of LF's guilt, they could have done this the day Bran rolled into Winterfell. That annoyed me, as well as the when and the how of Arya turning against Sansa and Sansa (offscreen) winning her over. Was it all fake? And if it was, why was it necessary?

And yeah, one dragon was sacrificed, thus proving the means for the NK to cross the Wall, all to convince ONE one-handed dude to fight with them. Nice going, Jon Snow (and no, I don't give a shit if you're Targaryen or not, the whole fuss about whether the man who left his first wife and kids in the hands of a murderously insane pyromaniac to get with a teenager actually MARRIED her or not is just enraging).

I 'm not sure I agree with all that, It seems Sansa initiated and figured most stuff, and I think it's telling that it was done with just the Vale army there and Wolcum, Sansa, Arya and Bran and it seemed obvious that Sansa trusted Arya since Sansa gave her the dagger back as Arya walked in with it on her hip. Sansa would not allow her sister to enter with weapons if she didn't feel safe. Bran  confirmed what Sansa knew and filled the blanks. We knew Bran had to bring up the stuff like Lysa's letter and the throne room. Sansa remembered the poison, and Lysa being pushed out, LF and Sansa's letter, LF selling her to the Boltons, and I guess we got confirmation he talked to Joffery.

[KaleyFirefly]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I love that both of Cersei's brothers dared her to kill them.

What I don't get is why didn't she kill Tyrion? She has no love for him like she might for Jamie. She's hated him her whole life. He's her enemy. What stopped her? The fact that she knew Jamie wouldn't like it? But she had no problem alienating Jamie later.

[SimoneS]

I have no problem with the accusations against Littlefinger being on Sansa and Bran's word. Even today, people have gone to prison on less evidence and this is alternate world Westeros.  My issue is all the manufactured drama. 

[GrailKing]

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As per this show, Tyrion's interested in a better world, he's not going to give that up because Dany has feelings for Jon and not him.

I don't think we know Tyrion well enough, he's conflicted, but he did not look resigned  to the bedding more jealous and angered.

[Blonde Gator]

Well, one of my favorite YouTubers (guy has 2 million followers) put up a brand new video tonight (Sunday) about the Dany prophecies, and he covers both show prophecies AND book prophecies, by both Mirri Maaz Duur and the ones from the House of the Undying.   It makes quite a bit of sense, given what was in the books and how D&D have played it, including all of the heavy handed fore-shadowing we've been getting. 

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, KaleyFirefly said:

What I don't get is why didn't she kill Tyrion? She has no love for him like she might for Jamie. She's hated him her whole life. He's her enemy. What stopped her? The fact that she knew Jamie wouldn't like it? But she had no problem alienating Jamie later.

the fact that killing him would certainly bring Dany's immediate and firey wrath.

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, KaleyFirefly said:

What I don't get is why didn't she kill Tyrion? She has no love for him like she might for Jamie. She's hated him her whole life. He's her enemy. What stopped her? The fact that she knew Jamie wouldn't like it? But she had no problem alienating Jamie later.

I think the only reason that Cersei didn't kill Tyrion was because she wanted to use him to get Jon and Dany to believe that she would send help. 

Another thing, what Lannister troops could there be left after Dany destroyed most of them. I was wondering where those generals or whoever they were magically appeared from.

[Blonde Gator]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I have no problem with the accusations against Littlefinger being on Sansa and Bran's word. Even today, people have gone to prison on less evidence and this is alternate world Westeros.  My issue is all the manufactured drama. 

And we know Bronze Yohn Royce was suspicious of Little Finger forever, as were the rest of the Lords of the Vale when Lysa took her swan dive.   No love lost there, I almost laughed when Bronze Yohn gave Baelish a thumbs down when he screamed "I'm a celebrity, get me out of heeeeeeeeeeeeere!".

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I have no problem with the accusations against Littlefinger being on Sansa and Bran's word. Even today, people have gone to prison on less evidence and this is alternate world Westeros.  My issue is all the manufactured drama. 

I still think, it's because Sansa can't trust that there are no safe places, so she played it out with all the raw emotion intact as a precuation.

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Euron's about to become a threatening villain at any time now.

Wait until the GC support Euron instead of her.

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I think the only reason that Cersei didn't kill Tyrion was because she wanted to use him to get Jon and Dany to believe that she would send help. 

Another thing, what Lannister troops could there be left after Dany destroyed most of them. I was wondering where those generals or whoever they were magically appeared from.

Didn't most of the Lannister army take the Highgarden gold back to KL before Dany's Dragon and Dothraki arrived?

Edited August 28, 2017 by leopardprint

[MadMouse]

7 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

What I don't get is why didn't she kill Tyrion? She has no love for him like she might for Jamie. She's hated him her whole life. He's her enemy. What stopped her? The fact that she knew Jamie wouldn't like it? But she had no problem alienating Jamie later.

Because even in her disillusion state she knows that Dany would burn the Red Keep to the ground, I think even Jon and Varys would both be like fuck it at that point.

[Cthulhudrew]

That's two episodes in a row where they've pulled the "get everyone walking in procession so that we can pair them up to have conversations" shtick. You're showing your hand, writers.

Bigger question though: If Daenerys had such a problem with Jon deciding to demonstrate his loyalty at the cost of losing an alliance against the walking dead, why didn't she speak up and release him from his oath then and there instead of bitching about it after the fact? It's not like her character isn't known for speaking her mind even when it is inconvenient.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Cthulhudrew

[KaleyFirefly]

And now begins our Long Night till next season.

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, KaleyFirefly said:

What I don't get is why didn't she kill Tyrion? She has no love for him like she might for Jamie. She's hated him her whole life. He's her enemy. What stopped her? The fact that she knew Jamie wouldn't like it? But she had no problem alienating Jamie later.

Because ultimately, he's still her brother and no matter how much she wants him dead, she loves him too much to do it by her own hand, especially right in front of her.  The more interesting thing in that scene is Tyrion practically begging her to kill him. I really do think at this point that he wants his sister to kill him. 

Seriously though, just watched that scene again and those two put on a frigging clinic. It was amazing watching them build off one another.  Sad that'll probably be the last scene between the two.

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Wait until the GC support Euron instead of her.

Euron will likely become Theon food sooner rather than later.

[britesongs]

51 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

One criticism, the title is The Dragon and The Wolf BUT we NEVER saw Ghost anywhere in the episode ????  For all we know he is the last male Dire Wolf left.  Is he busy chasing Nymeria to continue the lineage ??? :P

I'm deciding whether the title is in reference to Jon since Bran and Sam had the conversation about Jon being both a Targ and a Stark or if it's supposed to be referring to Jon and Dany having boat!sex. 

Either way, seriously. Where the fuck has Ghost been? If the reason we haven't seen him is because of the CGI budget going to the dragons, why not at least a throwaway line about him being at the Wall or hanging out in the godswood at Winterfell keeping an eye on Bran?

47 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I seem to recall Sansa hearing Lysa & Peter Baelish talking about how she helped him poison Jon Arryn.....when Peter caught Lysa trying to toss Sansa out the Moon Door.  Lysa was screaming "I love you, I've always loved you, I poisoned my husband for you, blah, blah, blah".  I'd have to rewatch the episode, but I really believe show Sansa heard that herself, straight from Lysa and in front of Littlefinger.

She did. I was just watching that season (and episode) earlier today. Sansa knew all of that. As far as the question others have asked about why she didn't act earlier, I think she was biding her time until it was clear he was of no use to her or that he had started to actively plot against her and her family. She was willing to tolerate his presence until he turned up the volume on his usual machinations. Then she decided to end it.

Edited August 28, 2017 by britesongs
unexplainable little bits of weirdness I had to fix because Stannis (and Davos) would have objected.

[Colorful Mess]

28 minutes ago, doram said:

Yeah, that theory would never make sense.

Jon sleeps with Dany to... manipulate her to get the help that she's already promised him before he bent the knee...

but...

Jon can't lie to Cersei to... get the help that she will give him contingent on that lie?

Well, lets first agree that the writing here is a mess. So its hard to discuss anything about a character's motives! I'm kind of stabbing in the dark here.

Second, it's important to note that he did NOT bend the knee. He just promised her he would. He has no "oath" to uphold to her, even though he said he does in the dragon pit. That clued me in that something was up. Why say you swore an oath to her - it's not like it's your NW vows!  

So, Jon didn't really promise anything to her. And if that's the case, then she might also fake out on her promise as well. Especially when she learns that Jon's the rightful heir. He doesn't know this, of course, but he's smart to hedge his bets.

If Jon is willing to play her he has to be skeptical of her. He doesn't know this woman. For all he knows, she could be using the WW fight as PR, to swoop in and declare herself savior of Westeros - a la Stannis. Which would be fine! However, Stannis didn't have dragons. Jon has already been shown to be very mistrustful of a monarch with weapons like that. He warned her not to use them in ways that would hurt the kingdom. So I guess my point is that he's trying to get her to do what he wants, so that he (and Tyrion) will curb her pyrotechnic tendencies (Varys: "You need to find a way to make her listen"). So, sex = another step in influence over her (my tinfoil theory is that fake!wight hunt was the first attempt to "make her listen"). Plus the coded "romance" in their scenes suggests that she's more into him than he's into her. Jon would make note of this, and use it. 

Also, I think the conflict in S8 will be how will dragons be used? Jon wants to use them as a shield to guard the realms of men. THIS IS THE VOW THAT REALLY MATTERS. He realized that in his conversation with Beric in the last ep. Jon is falling back on his NW vows--not any silly vows to HER. Meanwhile, Dany doesn't see her dragons as a "shield." She sees them as a way to bring about justice and vengeance. That may work for Essos but it doesn't work for a free Westeros that most likely will want a new way of ruling--one based on protection without overwhelming displays of force.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[alaynestone]

Ok, this is a bit random, but this thought just popped into my head.

Rhaegar & Lyanna are a bit like Anakin & Padme, are they not?  Both had a hidden, secret romance/marriage.  Both ended up causing a war/chaos to happen because of their love/relationship: Rhaegar & Lyanna having caused Robert's Rebellion.  Anakin going to the dark side because of losing Padme, causing him to become Darth Vader.  Both ends had lots of people die.  And, both ended up having a savior child(ren) that will fix everything:  Jon & Luke.

 

Ok... I'll escort my nerd ass out myself.

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

But if Rhaegar had been more upfront about it, more public, a war could have been avoided. Maybe. Same with Lyanna. Dad it isn't rape, it's love and he will marry me. I know Dorne would rebelled or been insulted but that kingdom is so remote. Find Robert a new wife and done. All the anger came from what they thought was a rape.

Remember though, that it appears that he did.  Rickard and Brandon Stark show up at KL claiming that Lyanna was kidnapped.  King Aerys says she wasn't, that Rhaegar didn't kidnap her.  They call Rhaegar a liar and King Aerys kills them both. 

And for all we know she sent a raven and it was either ignored or they didn't care.  It's entirely likely that her dad wanted her to marry Robert for the Alliance and she decided she wasn't going to be sold to Robert.  I can't blame her for that.

There's also my personal theory that Benjen knew and was suppose to tell, but maybe he didn't.  Or maybe they didn't believe him.  And his guilt is what drives him to join the Night's Watch.  It made little sense to me, for him to join it when he was now the 2nd son and needed to make heirs as well, in case something  happened to Ned.  Or at least wait to join the Night's watch until after Robb was grown and the Stark line was assured to continue.

I think it's also possible that Ned knew.  It's possible that Ned gets a raven from Lyanna or finds out what the truth is, but he's too late.  It was drilled into us early on, that Ned and his army race to the trident, but get there too late for the battle.  So maybe Ned wasn't racing there to join the battle, but to stop the battle.  That's more iffy though cause he seems freaked out by 3 Kings Guard guarding Lyanna.  Although, that could be because while he knew she wasn't kidnapped, maybe he didn't expect to find out they were married, which is what was implied by the Kings Guard being there.

[Potanical Pardon]

Where's Gendry?

[LanceM]

In case anyone is wondering here is what D&D had to say about why they shot the R+L=J reveal and the Dany-Jon sex scene the way they did:

"He's the rightful heir to the iron throne. That changes everything... It was about making it clear that this was an information bomb that Jon was heading towards... Just as we're seeing these two people come together, we're hearing the information that will inevitably if not tear them apart, at least cause real problems in their relationship, and she's his aunt. It complicates everything on a political level, on a personal level, and it just takes everything that could have been so neat and kind of perfect for Jon and Dany, and it really muddies the waters."

[MrWhyt]

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

If Jon is willing to play her he has to be skeptical of her.

jon's not playing her, that's not the Jon Snow we've been watching, he's not Littlefinger

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Well, lets first agree that the writing here is a mess. So its hard to discuss anything about a character's motives! I'm kind of stabbing in the dark here.

You have it right the first line ;) I really do not think the showrunners (D&D) care about dialogs or reasonable storytelling anymore.  They just want to go from plot A to B to C while shoving as much non-verbal shots to the episodes as possible :D

[ulkis]

5 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

That's two episodes in a row where they've pulled the "get everyone walking in procession so that we can pair them up to have conversations" shtick. You're showing your hand, writers.

True, but at least the setting was more convenient for leisurely chatting instead of last episode's "let's chit chat while the snow and wind is blowing in our faces and we're supposed to be on the lookout for wights."

re: Baelish, I think even if they had devoted more to that plot, I think it would have been still felt kind of off because Baelish's plan was never quite clear. It would still be like, "ah ha, Baelish! We've stopped you from . . . whatever the hell it is you were going for with these convoluted schemes of yours! Seducing Sansa but what was all the other stuff about?"

Not that I still didn't like him getting killed off, because I did, but that's because one of the reasons I've never liked his character is because he's never made much sense. I think he indicated once he wanted the Iron throne but they seemed to have dropped that.

[VCRTracking]

I know it was only for the audience's benefit, to let us know that Ned knew that Jon was really legitimate, but Lyanna telling him her baby's full name was "Aegon Targaryen" was... I'll let this tweet say it:

 

2 minutes ago, alaynestone said:

Ok, this is a bit random, but this thought just popped into my head.

Rhaegar & Lyanna are a bit like Anakin & Padme, are they not?  Both had a hidden, secret romance/marriage.  Both ended up causing a war/chaos to happen because of their love/relationship: Rhaegar & Lyanna having caused Robert's Rebellion.  Anakin going to the dark side because of losing Padme, causing him to become Darth Vader.  Both ends had lots of people die.  And, both ended up having a savior child(ren) that will fix everything:  Jon & Luke.

 

Ok... I'll escort my nerd ass out myself.

Aww, don't be embarrassed. I've been seeing parallels between Padme and Anakin and Elizabeth and Phillip on Netflix's The Crown.(A young brunette Queen who's in over her head married to an arrogant blond who complains a lot)

[Colorful Mess]

6 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

jon's not playing her, that's not the Jon Snow we've been watching, he's not Littlefinger

Sorry I have to do this but....*spools up the book quotes*

Quote

“No. No, that’s wrong. Jon would never . . .”

“Jon would never. Lord Snow did. Sometimes there is no happy choice, Sam, only one less grievous than the others.” - AFFC

Edited August 28, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[britesongs]

5 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Where's Gendry?

He apparently missed Dany's ship when it left for KL so he's probably still rowing there. Again.

[HunterHunted]

37 minutes ago, doram said:

Jon can't lie to Cersei to... get the help that she will give him contingent on that lie?

It's not even a lie. The moment he bent the knee he ceased being the King of the North. He was Jon Snow the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He could have agreed to Cersei's terms because there is no such entity as the King in the North and as a vassal of Daenerys, it's completely up to Dany what Jon does with his northern troops.

The thing that is completely bullshit about Jon and his honor is that we didn't see him volunteering that Dany already lost a dragon. He isn't volunteering that he came back from the dead. It's not a lie. Cersei just doesn't have all of the facts.

Jon has all of the honor and the brains of a Stark.

Edited August 28, 2017 by HunterHunted

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think we would have seen a proper start to finish love scene if it was meant to be the start of an endgame romance. 

Every single thing/arc/story this season was rushed, why boat!sex! wouldn't be? Yeah, it would have been great to have more scenes like the one with Dany and Jon talking about Dragonpit, but then it would have been great to have a ton of extra scenes. Anyway, I don't think it means that the romance won't happen, because it already happened. The message there is not that Lyanna and Rhaegar were doomed, but that he  loved her and she loved him, said by Bran and cut straight to Jon's and Dany's face.  Now if Dany and Jon both live happily after it is all said and done it is another story.

Can we start taking bets on the sex of the baby? I say it is a dark haired girl. Mark my words.

Pet peeve of this episode: Emilia's wig. That thing didn't move when she was riding a dragon and it didn't have a single hair out of place having sex. Sure they can afford something better than that helmet they pass as Dany's hair.

Too much screen time devoted to the Hound, while Brienne got nothing. Lovely scenes between Pod/Bron/Tyrion, and I'm sure Por and Bron went straight to the beers AND the women.

Qyburn is creepy, but a scientist at his core;  you could see the wheels in head turning when he picked up the wight's arm. 

Lena and Peter were great and currently the two best actors in the show - the third is Alfie Allen, who I don't think gets the all the praise he deserves. Loved the Cersei and Tyrion scenes, which were among the best this season, and the love and hate and all the unspoken pain were all over their faces.

Glad that Jamie left, but it was a good two seasons too late.

The scene between Theon and Jon was fucking awesome, BUT adoptive son/father was rewriting history. Like always, D&D fail at writing, because Jon's line should have been something like "I know you didn't come to us by choice, and I know you never felt totally at home, but for us, for me, for Robb, you were always one of us, you were part of the Starks". I LOVED Ned, but he took Theon as a hostage, period.

Jon isn't Ned's son by blood, but in every single other aspect he is his true son. Can't be mad at him from being exactly like Ned Stark - that was something Ned would done. Dragonpit was beautiful, and while I enjoyed the scenes and all, something was missing - maybe the writing should have been more polished, as always, maybe the directing was not that good.  

Cersei's dress was all kinds of awesome.

I don't care if it is a fucking plot armor, Tormund better be alive, because I don't want Davos or Jon facing him next season. 

I'm not sure if I buy that Littlefinger would beg and cry, but whatever. I'm glad he is gone, he should have been gone a long time ago.

The wall falling down was kind of meh, that scene should have been shown from the POV of the WWs - frowm the ground, which would have had a much bigger impact IMO. 

As as it was cool to the dragons as we saw them this season, it is obvious that all that CGI cost us the other three episodes. This season felt rushed in all the wrong ways, so many scenes should have been there and were not, so many talks, small lines between the characters that should have been there. There is not doubt, at least for me, that D7D are nowhere close to George - George, for all the myth of being really innovative and daring, is a very conventional writer. But he is a much better writer than D&D and it shows on screen; adds the lack of the three episodes and we got what we got, which wasn't exactly awful with a capital A, but it was a waste of potential. Not my favorite season, but I'm glad the plot moved forward.  Here hoping HBO as a change of mind and we get a 10 episodes season. Whishful thiking I know, but a girl can dream.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Raachel2008

[Oscirus]

46 minutes ago, Shimmergloom said:

Remember though, that it appears that he did.  Rickard and Brandon Stark show up at KL claiming that Lyanna was kidnapped.  King Aerys says she wasn't, that Rhaegar didn't kidnap her.  They call Rhaegar a liar and King Aerys kills them both. 

And for all we know she sent a raven and it was either ignored or they didn't care.  It's entirely likely that her dad wanted her to marry Robert for the Alliance and she decided she wasn't going to be sold to Robert.  I can't blame her for that.

There's also my personal theory that Benjen knew and was suppose to tell, but maybe he didn't.  Or maybe they didn't believe him.  And his guilt is what drives him to join the Night's Watch.  It made little sense to me, for him to join it when he was now the 2nd son and needed to make heirs as well, in case something  happened to Ned.  Or at least wait to join the Night's watch until after Robb was grown and the Stark line was assured to continue.

I think it's also possible that Ned knew.  It's possible that Ned gets a raven from Lyanna or finds out what the truth is, but he's too late.  It was drilled into us early on, that Ned and his army race to the trident, but get there too late for the battle.  So maybe Ned wasn't racing there to join the battle, but to stop the battle.  That's more iffy though cause he seems freaked out by 3 Kings Guard guarding Lyanna.  Although, that could be because while he knew she wasn't kidnapped, maybe he didn't expecmt to find out they were married, which is what was implied by the Kings Guard being there.

If all this is true, why hide her? There's no reason to hide her if he thought what he was doing was righteous. He should have married her took her to King's landing, told the Dornish, the Starks and the Baratheons to suck it up. He knew what he was doing. Hell Rhaegar could've went to Kings landing as soon as he heard the Starks were arrested, but he didn't he and many died because of it. He didn't care.

Look at the marriage scene on this show. Those aren't the face of two people disheartened by the fact that the brides family got slaughtered by their actions.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Oscirus

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, britesongs said:

He apparently missed Dany's ship when it left for KL so he's probably still rowing there. Again.

He is a fast rower so he is probably already at Eastwatch with his row boat and is rescuing Tormund and Beric  :D :D :D

[ulkis]

.

Edited September 3, 2017 by ulkis

[Lemuria]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

He is a fast rower so he is probably already at Eastwatch with his row boat and is rescuing Tormund and Beric  :D :D :D

Wait, didn't he run to Eastwatch?  All the while thinking, "Who do I have to f*!@ to get off this planet?"

[MadMouse]

Brandon didn't ride to KL demanding Lyanna, he threatened the crown prince by calling for Rhaegar to come out and die. Aerys was crazy but he had every right to lock him up, do you think if an Umber rode to the gates of Wintefell and demanded Robb's head Ned wouldn't have done the same.

As for Jon playing Dany, there was a reason why during Bran's monologue about Rhaegar and Lyanna that when he said "He loved her" "And she loved him" they focused on Dany and Jon. This is history repeating itself the Dragon and Wolf falling in love. But this time the kingdom will benefit not bleed.  

[Colorful Mess]

44 minutes ago, doram said:

I'd say we should agree to disagree but considering that I've read this half a dozen times and the only thing I can understand is "the writing is a mess".....? Beyond that, I can't make any kind of coherent logical or narrative sense from anything you've written here. I mean, I say that in all honesty. Like, it's not even a question of me thinking if a character is acting OOC or not, or if a plot is contradictory. I actually gave myself a headache trying to understand what you're trying to say.

I need to hear your theories for what he's doing in this episode. Why does he have sex with her if this isn't a love story? Is it just to get his dick wet? 

People saying Jon is "just like Ned" is driving me nuts. He's not here to repeat the Ned Stark story, he's Ned with the ability to play the game. And he plays it for the greater good (i.e. undercover with the wildlings). His book version is low-key cunning.

Also, why have the Stark sisters on Level 20000 in this ep, while he's still stuck on Level 1? I refuse to believe he's a Northern Fool.

The end of this story will be Stark catharsis - they are ALL learning how to be gamemasters here.

If we work backwards from that premise, then we start to see that he's not being truthful in this Ep. He's charming her. She's quick to anger and impulsive! Tyrion said this himself. Just because she says she'll do something doesnt mean she won't change her mind.

However, If we both can't make sense of it, then I give up. The show is probably going to pull another Lost at the end (oooooh GRRM would be PISSED...)

Edited August 28, 2017 by Colorful Mess

[Oscirus]

So I just watched inside the episode and Jamie's reason for leaving Cersei is that she didn't tell him her plan? Are they serious? That's literally a worst reason than  the books.

[Miles]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

True to form, the plot that sent him off was really dumb.  How and when did Sansa figure all this out?  What prompted this sudden revisiting of things like Littlefinger’s dealings with Ned Stark?  There’s not even a hint of an explanation.  It would tend to indicate that (assuming GRRM ever publishes the next book(s)) we’ll eventually get a more narratively satisfying story of Sansa outwitting Littlefinger, though.

I think Sansa figured it out the moment Little Finger asked her "and what would that make her (Aria)?" and Sansa answered "the Lady of Winterfell". Little Finger thought he was clever, but he didn't know Aria like Sansa does. Sansa knew that (despite the dumb quote we got in the previously on, that was clearly meant to mislead us) the last thing Aria would want to be would be a Lady of anything, let alone one that has such a high position that she would be in the spotlight all the time.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Miles

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Dany was never barren, and Mirri never told her she was. That's just Dany being her own unreliable narrator.

“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”

Always took that to mean Danny was barren. That last part was not said on the show (about the living child) because I was reading the books and watching the show at the same time and remember the living child part was left out.

Never finished the books, so I'm stuck in book one so to speak.

[ulkis]

23 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Every single thing/arc/story this season was rushed, why boat!sex! wouldn't be? Yeah, it would have been great to have more scenes like the one with Dany and Jon talking about Dragonpit, but then it would have been great to have a ton of extra scenes.

Yes, but even with the limited episodes they felt really rushed. The second episode after they met, Davos smacked us with the anvil of "I've noticed you staring at her good heart." If they had just left in the lingering hand holds and glances and left out stuff like Davos' line and Tyrion mentioning all the men who had fallen for Dany, including Jon Snow, it would have felt a bit less rushed, imo.

Agreed about the Theon/Ned scene, Alfie Allen's acting and the Daenerys wig, although it's always distracted me.

[Miles]

Well the trip north backfired massively. Not only did they not convince Cercei to do the right thing (which Tyrion really should have seen coming). They also gave the white walkers the means to break the wall. I don't see how else they would have made it over, considering all the enchantments in the wall. Seems like the only way to break it was dragon fire (since the horn of winter was never introduced).

I hope Martin will come up with a better story (should he ever get to this point). All the characters involved in that little fools errand should be smarter than that. But I fear the destruction of the wall will also be undead dragon based in the books and the horn of winter is just a red hering.

What annoyed me a bit was that they made it seem, in the conversation between Tyrion and Cercei, like Dany had considered nuking Kings Landing and all it's one million inhabitants. Where did that come from? There was only ever talk about nuking the red keep, not the entire city. Would there be some civilian casulties, sure a few servants, but not nearly as many as there would be in a long drawn out war.

[VCRTracking]

A tweet about another favorite scene.

[Lemuria]

1 minute ago, Miles said:

Not only did they not convince Cercei to do the right thing (which Tyrion really should have seen coming). They also gave the white walkers the means to break the wall. I don't see how else they would have made it over, considering all the enchantments in the wall. Seems like the only way to break it was dragon fire (since the horn of winter was never introduced).

I think Tyrion believed that, when faced with total destruction at the hands of the undead, Cersei would make survival--especially her own--the most paramount problem.  Cersei may be "mad" (though I'm not sure how much that is true) but she's been very smart since she took over.  Under normal circumstances, letting two enemies fight first and then taking on the weakened survivor would make sense.  In this situation, it doesn't.  This is the first really irrational decision I've seen her make this season. 

[HunterHunted]

12 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If all this is true, why hide her? There's no reason to hide her if he thought what he was doing was righteous. Marry her take her to King's landing, tell the dornes, the starks and the Baratheons to suck it up.  Because he knew what he was doing. Hell Rhaegar could've went to Kings landing as soon as he heard the Starks were arrested, but he didn't he and many died because of it. Look at the marriage scene on this show. Those aren't the face of two people disheartened by the fact that the brides family got slaughtered by their actions.

And Westeros would likely still have ended up in chaos. Robert is insulted because Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar so he has beef with the Starks and the Targaryens. The Dornish are pissed because all of Rhaegar's children with Elia are out of the line of succession and likely to be killed to prevent another Blackfyre rebellion. The Starks have no other daughters to marry to Robert. To make Robert whole (marriage to another great house), Aerys would have had force a marriage between Robert and Cersei or Robert and Catelyn, which would break the Tully agreement to marry a Stark. I'd also imagine that the Baratheons would have also demanded gold from the Starks and the Targaryens too. I imagine that the Lannisters and Tullys would have also negotiated that the Targaryens supply the dowry for the woman Robert would eventually marry.

So even formally acknowledging the marriage of Rhaegar and Lynna costs the crown a lot of money and breaks old bonds and ties and would still have had at least two, maybe three or more, of the great houses in open rebellion against the crown. 

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Miles said:

What annoyed me a bit was that they made it seem, in the conversation between Tyrion and Cercei, like Dany had considered nuking Kings Landing and all it's one million inhabitants. Where did that come from? There was only ever talk about nuking the red keep, not the entire city. Would there be some civilian casulties, sure a few servants, but not nearly as many as there would be in a long drawn out war.

Tyrion exaggerated for emphasis. He was trying to get Cersei to agree.

1 minute ago, HunterHunted said:

And Westeros would likely still have ended up in chaos. Robert is insulted because Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar so he has beef with the Starks and the Targaryens. The Dornish are pissed because all of Rhaegar's children with Elia are out of the line of succession and likely to be killed to prevent another Blackfyre rebellion. The Starks have no other daughters to marry to Robert. To make Robert whole (marriage to another great house), Aerys would have had force a marriage between Robert and Cersei or Robert and Catelyn, which would break the Tully agreement to marry a Stark. I'd also imagine that the Baratheons would have also demanded gold from the Starks and the Targaryens too. I imagine that the Lannisters and Tullys would have also negotiated that the Targaryens supply the dowry for the woman Robert would eventually marry.

So even formally acknowledging the marriage of Rhaegar and Lynna costs the crown a lot of money and breaks old bonds and ties and would still have had at least two, maybe three or more, of the great houses in open rebellion against the crown. 

So in short,  Rhaegar should've acted like a king and not done something that would cause this much chaos, death and destruction because he ran into a pretty girl that caught his fancy.

[ruby24]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

I'm wondering if Tyrion will end up betraying Dany. There was so many mentions of how he loved Tommen and Myrcella  and  how he convinced Dany not to bring Fire and blood cause he didn't want his family hurt...I also didn't like the way the scene between him and Cersei cut out when he realized she was pregnant. It's pretty ominous to me. 

I kind of agree with this. Tyrion clearly still loves his family in a lot of ways and is still a Lannister. I also don't get how he could ever think that Cersei would actually help them by sending her men to fight with them- weren't they just wanting a truce at first? Did he actually expect her to help, really?

And that scene between them was SO great, by the way. Tyrion and Cersei's scenes together were always the best, I've missed them. 

[KaleyFirefly]

3 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

I'm sure but hasn't it already been said the ending will be bittersweet?  Game of thrones is no fairytale and has never pretended to be. I think the two needed to come together to defeat the whitewalkers but that's it IMO I think there has been quite a bit of foreshadowing this season that Dany will not rule.

Remember one of her visions in the House of Undying was the Iron Throne with snow on it.

[skiracing12]

does anyone else get a sense that the whole mess with the golden company is a way to introduce (book) Aegon? The idea of the dragon having three heads seems important and i cant see any way an army that recently defeated the Night King being able to also beat cersei and 20,000 mercenaries and i also cant see cersei on the iron throne in the end. I hope this isnt where D and D are going there just isnt enough time ( and aegon is born before Aegon-jon(wtf guys be more original)

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, Tippi said:

Maybe Tyrion is thinking that Dany falling in love with and marrying Jon would not be the best strategic match she could make for the husband of the Queen.  Or maybe he thinks that Dany loving Jon will cause her to take too many risks to save him and thereby jeopardize her own life.  I'm just trying to find something other than Tyrion is jealous, though that could be case.

Well, he would have reason to fret if he thinks Dany is letting personal feelings override her good sense. That's exactly what got Tyrion himself in so much trouble.

Or, more specifically, he knows in retrospect that as soon as he fell for Shae, they were both doomed unless he was willing to give up everything else and run away with her. And he knows Dany and Jon don't have that option.

8 minutes ago, Miles said:

I think Sansa figured it out the moment Little Finger asked her "and what would that make her (Aria)?" and Sansa answered "the Lady of Winterfell". Little Finger thought he was clever, but he didn't knew Aria like Sansa does. Sansa knew that (despite the dumb quote we got in the previously on, that was clearly meant to mislead us) the last thing Aria would want would be a Lady of anything, let alone one that has such a high position that she would be in the spotlight all the time.

Yeah, I think some people are under the mistaken impression that Sansa and Arya were playing Littlefinger all along, but I agree that we were supposed to see the last Sansa/Littlefinger conversation as the turning point. And it was about realizing what Petyr was up to NOW, not discovering his previous crimes, which were mostly old news to Sansa. She just had to lean on Bran to fill in the last few details for the sake of presenting the full case to the Northern lords. 

Speaking of that case, I'm relieved they didn't dwell to much on the "It's Littlefinger's knife!" revelation. The point was just that it wasn't Tyrion's blade, and we weren't asked to imagine some big nonsensical knife plot on Petyr's part.

[Miles]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I think Tyrion believed that, when faced with total destruction at the hands of the undead, Cersei would make survival--especially her own--the most paramount problem.  Cersei may be "mad" (though I'm not sure how much that is true) but she's been very smart since she took over.  Under normal circumstances, letting two enemies fight first and then taking on the weakened survivor would make sense.  In this situation, it doesn't.  This is the first really irrational decision I've seen her make this season. 

She never made great decisions. This season she just got saved by plot contrivance a bunch of times, because the writers want to make it interesting. Euron teleporting around the world and taking out everyone of Cercei's enemies isn't due to great planning on her part.

I think we also shouldn't forget that she armed the faith militant, which cost her a son and now she blames Tyrion for the result of her little powerplay with Margery.

Not going into the fight in the north might actually be one of her smarter decisions. If the dead win, they add countless to their numbers and she is royally fucked, but if the living win, they will be severely weakened and she will have easy pickings. As far as she knows it's about a 50/50 shot, whereas when she fights at their side against the dead, she will be defeatet for sure in the following war.

[ElizaD]

Some things from the leaks turned out much less interesting than I expected, but I actually loved Littlefinger's death more than I hoped I would. The buildup was poor and this could have been a great storyline if episodes 7x05 and 7x06, especially, had been handled better; however, the climax worked so well for me that I can't hate it. Littlefinger breaking down, Sansa sounding like the Lady of Winterfell, Arya looking smug and finishing him off in a way that still left him gasping for a while instead of granting him instant death - very satisfying stuff.