S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Lady Iris]

Jon talked about how fire and dragonglass can kill the wights but no mention of valerian steel. Is that something we're only privy to as the viewers? Do they not know that those blades are effective weapons?

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

Jon talked about how fire and dragonglass can kill the wights but no mention of valerian steel. Is that something we're only privy to as the viewers? Do they not know that those blades are effective weapons?

I believe Jon killed a wight with Valyrian steel, so he knows.  He might have not mentioned it because there is so little Valyrian steel left of there, that it would not be significant.  

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair). The character gets so idealized as being the best at everything and the best looking that this makes him... well, human. And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

Yes, some of the artists' impressions made me giggle. I don't know what was funniest, the one who was clearly Ian Somerhalder with long blond hair, or the one who was Tom Wlaschiha (Jaqen H'ghar) with long blond hair.

I honestly didn't mind the actor's appearance, even though I really thought it was the same actor who played Viserys at first. I liked that fact that it was done on purpose by the showrunners and director. They were brothers, so why shouldn't there be a resemblance? I'm not sure if it was in the books or show only, but Viserys is supposed to have styled himself after Rhaegar, so the hair works too. 

Quote

I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

This, definitely. 

[madam magpie]

I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I'm surprised by how many people thought the Jon/Dany sex scene was underwhelming. I mean...it seemed to me like the scene wasn't going for romance so much as symmetry and plot reveal in an effort to sow conflict. It also seems like, incest aside, this would be a very tricky situation for Jon/Dany and much as they're clearly into each other, they'd both also be conflicted by destiny and duty.

The scene in the cave and then last week at Jon's bedside, and Dany coming to his rescue and having to leave him behind, were so much more romantic and showed pretty clearly, I thought, how they feel about each other. 

In other news, I was bummed to learn last week that she associates the name Dany with that creepy, molesting brother because I always call her that and think of the character that way! I'm holding out hope that she comes around eventually and sees it as an endearment instead, though on this show, she'd be more likely to start burning people alive as traitors who call her that so...

Edited August 30, 2017 by madam magpie

[glowbug]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

Funny you should mention Orlando Bloom. In a sense he would be perfect casting for Rhaegar, not because I find him all that particularly attractive (I don't), but because he and Kit Harrington look like they could be related, especially young Orlando Bloom (he's not aging well).

On the other hand, Jon is supposed to take after his mother's side of the family so Orlando Bloom would be the wrong choice. Otherwise people would take one look at Jon and go, "Holy crap, you're not Ned's bastard. You're the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark."

[Hana Chan]

21 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I'm surprised by how many people thought the Jon/Dany sex scene was underwhelming. I mean...it seemed to me like the sex scene wasn't going for romance so much as symmetry and plot reveal in an effort to sow conflict. It also seems like, incest aside, this would be a very tricky situation for Jon/Dany and much as they're clearly into each other, they'd both also be conflicted by destiny and duty.

My only complaint is that it was very brief given just how momentous an event this is. It's a pairing that's been seasons in the making and it gets cut to just a few brief seconds. Hot seconds, definitely, but too brief.

Some positive notes though - what we did get was very interesting. I loved Jon pausing before he knocked on Dany's door, but walking in after she opened it and closing it behind him. The look on Dany's face during the act was one of real surprise and... dare I say it... joy. This is a man that is her equal, regardless of the fact that he gave up being KITN for the greater good. Every other pairing either had her in a more submissive position (Drogo) or where she was clearly the queen being serviced (Daario). 

And I liked that instead of having her body on full display (not that it's not an amazing body, but one we've seen naked an awful lot through the series), Kit's body was positioned so that we saw him first and foremost and he was almost shielding her. Since I'll never say no to seeing Kit Harrington naked, that pleased me a great deal. But the way they filmed the scene was really quite lovely.

[MadMouse]

When Dany has her vision of Rhaegar at first she thinks it was Viserys. They did look alike but it was like Rhaegar was the premium brand and Viserys was the generic version. The biggest problem was using the same wig and Rheagar's outfit. A little longer hair and clothes that actually fit right would have made a huge difference maybe a little stubble too.

[madam magpie]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

My only complaint is that it was very brief given just how momentous an event this is. It's a pairing that's been seasons in the making and it gets cut to just a few brief seconds. Hot seconds, definitely, but too brief.

Some positive notes though - what we did get was very interesting. I loved Jon pausing before he knocked on Dany's door, but walking in after she opened it and closing it behind him. The look on Dany's face during the act was one of real surprise and... dare I say it... joy. This is a man that is her equal, regardless of the fact that he gave up being KITN for the greater good. Every other pairing either had her in a more submissive position (Drogo) or where she was clearly the queen being serviced (Daario). 

And I liked that instead of having her body on full display (not that it's not an amazing body, but one we've seen naked an awful lot through the series), Kit's body was positioned so that we saw him first and foremost and he was almost shielding her. Since I'll never say no to seeing Kit Harrington naked, that pleased me a great deal. But the way they filmed the scene was really quite lovely.

I agree with all of this. I'll freely admit that Dany (and Sansa) is my favorite, so I pay a lot of attention to her. And I definitely think her feelings for Jon are a game changer for her, and a huge surprise, which make the reveal of their actual relationship in the moment this is all coming together for her more tragic. She's fallen hard for him for all the reasons you mention, and I expect her to get pregnant. Not to mention the whole "the Iron Throne isn't technically her birthright anymore" thing. I'm expecting a lot of emotional struggle for her next season, and I think that's primarily what this scene was meant to set up. 

Kit Harrington's ass and Emilia looking lovely are very nice as well. ?

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

If that's true then it's good they cut the scene because it makes Sansa look like a complete and utter fool on par with Jon.  It's one thing to be oblivious, it's another to trust the guy you've said can't be trusted.

I agree that cutting the scene helped, but Sansa still looks like a dunderhead.  From S6E10, Sansa says to Jon "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger".  She needed to take her own advice.

[YaddaYadda]

40 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I'm surprised by how many people thought the Jon/Dany sex scene was underwhelming. I mean...it seemed to me like the scene wasn't going for romance so much as symmetry and plot reveal in an effort to sow conflict. It also seems like, incest aside, this would be a very tricky situation for Jon/Dany and much as they're clearly into each other, they'd both also be conflicted by destiny and duty.

I get what they were trying to do, but I found so badly done. But someone on Tumblr re-edited the scene and I thought it was so much better. 

I don't know, the montage killed the reveal and Jon Snow's bare ass for me.

[MadMouse]

26 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I get what they were trying to do, but I found so badly done. But someone on Tumblr re-edited the scene and I thought it was so much better. 

I don't know, the montage killed the reveal and Jon Snow's bare ass for me.

Really? I'm not questioning your opinion but that mid sex "oh shit we're in love" stare they gave each other was one of the hottest things I've seen on TV in awhile.

Edited August 30, 2017 by MadMouse

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Really? I'm not questioning your opinion but that mid sex "oh shit we're in love" stare they gave each other was one of the hottest things I've seen on TV in awhile.

These things are in the eye of the beholder. It's like chemistry, some people see it, others don't. It just fell flat for me. I'm happy others liked it though.

Edited August 30, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[stillshimpy]

8 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Really? I'm not questioning your opinion but that mid sex "oh shit we're in love" stare they gave each other was one of the hottest things I've seen on TV in awhile.

Hotness is the eye of the beholder.  Even without the relatives reveal to underscore that this is going to be problematic, I personally don't find them to have anything other than manufactured chemistry that hails from a director's suggestion.   I like both actors but yeah, they're essentially the same size and I don't know....just not my gig.  

A lot of people have good butts so good on them for adhering to the workout regime that helps them in that area but I'm also not much of a butt person so there are diverse reactions even considering the prettiness of the people involved.  

ETA:  I'm also glad so many people got their swoons in and play through on it, but it wasn't any kind of universal knee knocking. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by stillshimpy

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

3 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Was Sansa just playing Littlefinger the whole time? Was Arya in on it since her return to Winterfell? How did Bran get involved? Did the Stark sisters nearly kill each other? According to Isaac Hempstead-Wright, who plays Bran Stark in the show, Sansa's storyline was not as manipulative as all that -- she really did fall under Littlefinger's thrall and came dangerously close to killing Arya. We just couldn't tell because the scene explaining all that was cut from the finale. "We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran's door and says, 'I need your help,' or something along those lines," Hempstead-Wright told Variety. "So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she's like, 'Oh, shit.'"

If that's true then it's good they cut the scene because it makes Sansa look like a complete and utter fool on par with Jon.  It's one thing to be oblivious, it's another to trust the guy you've said can't be trusted.

Maybe. That scene though would have telegraphed to viewers right away they were setting Littlefinger up. They would have known Bran would have told Sansa everything. Because if you believe Sansa was falling for it why would she need Bran's help? To just be at a trial?

Here's how the trap had to have gone down. The siblings met privately with the key Vale lords like Yohn Royce and Bran told them secrets about themselves that noone else ever could have known and that convinced them his visions were legit. 

Also the lords of the Vale always suspected Littlefinger killed Lysa but didn't have proof and so Sansa finally confessed like "Yeah, Littlefinger did it." My feeling why they weren't that upset Sansa kept the secret and was technically an accomplice is Bran told them their aunt Lysa and Littlefinger conspired to murder her husband and the Vale bannermen were far more loyal to Jon Arryn than his batshit crazy wife.

Bran's only involvement prior to this was probably giving his sisters the info how Littlefinger started the War of the Five Kings. Then was like "You guys go deal with him. I'll be busy warging and doing my Three Eyes Raven stuff". Then when Littlefinger made his move by trying to convince Sansa to get rid of Arya the sister made their move and needed Bran's help.

Here's a nice article that details how it could have been possible Arya and Sansa could have been playing Littlefinger the whole time(or at least since Episode 5):

Game of Thrones: Did the Winterfell subplot actually make any sense?
Read more at http://www.nme.com/blogs/tv-blogs/game-of-thrones-arya-sansa-plot-littlefinger-bran-2129881#8qMzWrPUgLbjmeDq.99

I agree the scene where they're in front of Ned's crypt(where nobody could possibly be around) contradicts their scenes in future episodes. Arya doesn't hold Ned's death against Sansa at all and if she did she wouldn't have needed a letter to suddenly bring it out in the open. The scenes of tension between Arya and Sansa however felt very real so either they were both great actors in-universe and had to make it look really good for whoever was listening or they were still being manipulated. The scene with Sansa and Littlefinger where he tells her to assume a person's worst motive, in hindsight felt like Sansa was playing along and pretending to listen to Littlefinger. It could just be Sophie Turner and Maisie Williams didn't know it was all a ploy until they got the script for the finale and playing their characters arguing for real.

Edited August 30, 2017 by VCRTracking

[MadMouse]

Maybe its because I'm getting old, I've seen my share of boobs and ass so the passionate looks works for me. Not that I wouldn't want to see more of Emilla's assets, that woman is perfection.

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Hotness is the eye of the beholder.  Even without the relatives reveal to underscore that this is going to be problematic, I personally don't find them to have anything other than manufactured chemistry that hails from a director's suggestion.   I like both actors but yeah, they're essentially the same size and I don't know....just not my gig.  

A lot of people have good butts so good on them for adhering to the workout regime that helps them in that area but I'm also not much of a butt person so there are diverse reactions even considering the prettiness of the people involved.  

ETA:  I'm also glad so many people got their swoons in and play through on it, but it wasn't any kind of universal knee knocking. 

 

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

These things are in the eye of the beholder. It's like chemistry, some people see it, others don't. It just fell flat for me. I'm happy others liked it though.

Yeah, that's the boat I was in (no pun ... well, it's not a pun, but you know what I mean ... intended). 

First, the show runners did themselves no favors by making multiple short jokes about Jon this year.  My running soundtrack went something like:

Huh, they ARE practically the same height, aren't they?

And she's a tiny thing.  Like one of those dolls with those big eyes.

So, this is like pressing two of those dolls up against each other and then spinning them.  And they were just that stiff (again, no pun intended) when they move.

[domina89]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

To add my 2 cents to the sex scene, I think it should have been longer but what we got worked (for me). Kit's height has never been a problem for me but I also appreciated the aesthetics of him being with a petite delicate-looking woman. Good casting with Emilia because a love scene between Kit and someone longer and angular would be jarring.

I agree.  I always worried for poor Emilia when she was paired with Jason Momoa because he was so much bigger than her!  He looked like he was going to break her.  Kit is much more physically compatible with her.

[mac123x]

When Dany and Jon were chit-chatting about the Dragon Pit (with the tiny dragon jawbone prop) I thought "well, he might not be a tall man, but he's certainly towering over her" then he stepped down onto her level.  I admit to chuckling at that.

 

I was pretty "meh" on the sex scene, and I think part of it was that the lighting was too bright.  Compared to the Grey Worm / Missandei scene, all candle and fire-lit romantic, Dany/Jon looked like they were over illuminated.

 

Completely shallow note (as I am an aficionado of butts), I'm still debating whose was better, GW or Jon.  Must rewatch.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Yes, you do. You can make mistakes and still have rights, and besides, she's right. Lyanna didn't have a vote in whether she married Robert. The only way to marry her choice was to run away.

 You can't insert 21 st sensibilities into a story where there is none. She knew the score growing up. Very few noble people male or female  got to marry who they wanted so that excuse doesn't fly.  Lyanna choosing some handsome prince that she barely knew over her family, doesn't make her a feminist hero.

 If you're  not willing to accept the consequences for your actions then no you dont get to play the victim card. Especially if you continue your honeymoon while your family  getting slaughtered. 

[ulkis]

51 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

These things are in the eye of the beholder. It's like chemistry, some people see it, others don't.

As for chemistry, the Dany wig pretty much distracts me from noticing much. If she weren't wearing that darn thing I think I might have been more into their love scene. That said, I certainly don't think they have anti-chemistry or anything.

Edited August 30, 2017 by ulkis

[domina89]

10 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Completely shallow note (as I am an aficionado of butts), I'm still debating whose was better, GW or Jon.  Must rewatch.

NCW's isn't too shabby, either...

[Oscirus]

I see this episode as one that tried to do way to much. This show definitely  would've benefitted if it had one more episode  to do everything they wanted.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I see this episode as one that tried to do way to much. This show definitely  would've benefitted if it had one more episode  to do everything they wanted.

At the very least.   The whole season has suffered from bad pacing due to a compression issue IMO.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Tikichick

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Going to admit that I kind of like the fact that Rhaeger was portrayed by an actor that isn't so dazzlingly handsome and is a more normally good looking man (with crazy blond hair). The character gets so idealized as being the best at everything and the best looking that this makes him... well, human. And with all the fanart done since the books started, I don't think anyone short of Orlando Bloom back in a lighter version of his Legolas wig would have fulfilled anyone's image of what Rhaeger looked like.

I've always imagined Rhaegar as handsome and manly  so anything Legolas-like would have been one of the worst castings I could imagine. But again, I'm not an Elf person.

What impressed me in that scene was how, in a handfuls of seconds, they managed to convey "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna". I could swear I heard Barristan's voice over Bran's.

If there is no Robert's Rebellion spin-off I think more will be learned about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the prophecy, etc. in S8. If only because imo those dragon eggs didn't come out of nowhere and didn't land by accident in a Targaryen's "loyalist" hands.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Happy Harpy

[madam magpie]

44 minutes ago, ulkis said:

That said, I certainly don't think they have anti-chemistry or anything. But she has the most with Jorah, imo.

Ohhhhhh Hot Jorah, as he is known in my circle, is definitely the one I think Dany has the best chemistry with. But he's not her equal, not in her eyes and not in his own. She's been sold, traded, manipulated, and hunted, and then she made some impressive power grabs to get herself out of that. What I like most about Jon is how he values the women he's close to and their autonomy without any paternalistic reverence. Jorah worships her, but Jon respects her. I'd prefer that kind of partner for Dany...and Sansa.

Hot Jorah can save himself for me instead.

47 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

 You can't insert 21 st sensibilities into a story where there is none. She knew the score growing up. Very few noble people male or female  got to marry who they wanted so that excuse doesn't fly.  Lyanna choosing some handsome prince that she barely knew over her family, doesn't make her a feminist hero.

 If you're  not willing to accept the consequences for your actions then no you dont get to play the victim card. Especially if you continue your honeymoon while your family  getting slaughtered. 

I think we can judge; people aren't so different. What's different in the GoT world is the rigidity of the power structure, not how people would feel.

Edited August 30, 2017 by madam magpie

[spaceghostess]

53 minutes ago, doram said:

To add my 2 cents to the sex scene, I think it should have been longer but what we got worked (for me). That moment when they're staring at each other is goosebumps inducing. But then again, I've always known that chemistry is subjective. People like what they already like, so to speak. 

Kit's height has never been a problem for me but I also appreciated the aesthetics of him being with a petite delicate-looking woman. Good casting with Emilia because a love scene between Kit and someone longer and angular would be jarring.

Ah, but his only other sex scene on this show was with Rose Leslie (Ygritte), who I'd definitely consider longer and angular--next to Kit, at least. Then again, the workarounds in that particular scene very successfully sidestepped the height issue, IMHO. *creeps off to gutter*

[Blonde Gator]

48 minutes ago, mac123x said:

When Dany and Jon were chit-chatting about the Dragon Pit (with the tiny dragon jawbone prop) I thought "well, he might not be a tall man, but he's certainly towering over her" then he stepped down onto her level.  I admit to chuckling at that.

 

I was pretty "meh" on the sex scene, and I think part of it was that the lighting was too bright.  Compared to the Grey Worm / Missandei scene, all candle and fire-lit romantic, Dany/Jon looked like they were over illuminated.

 

Completely shallow note (as I am an aficionado of butts), I'm still debating whose was better, GW or Jon.  Must rewatch.

Re: that scene....

If I'm Jon Snow, I stick that jawbone in my pocket....and take it back to Winterfell as souvenir.  Dragons have faded almost into myth at this point, so having an actual jawbone would be beyond cool!   He could give it to Arya, even though he has no ideas that she ran the dungeons under the Red Keep, I bet she'd like it even if she hadn't done that.  What a cool and unique gift it would have made. 

54 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I agree.  I always worried for poor Emilia when she was paired with Jason Momoa because he was so much bigger than her!  He looked like he was going to break her.  Kit is much more physically compatible with her.

I'm going with Drogo.....I love love love tall men with great legs (but prefer Lannister coloring).  Although the old thing about "kicking & crackers" would apply to Drogo in my world.

[Blonde Gator]

37 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've always imagined Rhaegar as handsome and manly  so anything Legolas-like would have been one of the worst castings I could imagine. But again, I'm not an Elf person.

What impressed me in that scene was how, in a handfuls of seconds, they managed to convey "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna". I could swear I heard Barristan's voice over Bran's.

If there is no Robert's Rebellion spin-off I think more will be learned about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the prophecy, etc. in S8. If only because imo those dragon eggs didn't come out of nowhere and didn't land by accident in a Targaryen's "loyalist" hands.

Nice thought about Barristan, may he RIP.  Perhaps if he'd been portrayed by a more charismatic actor (a la Davos), he'd still be around.  Barristan was a much beloved ASOIAF character who was killed off in the series well before his time, I'm afraid. 

[domina89]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Re: that scene....

If I'm Jon Snow, I stick that jawbone in my pocket....and take it back to Winterfell as souvenir.  Dragons have faded almost into myth at this point, so having an actual jawbone would be beyond cool!   He could give it to Arya, even though he has no ideas that she ran the dungeons under the Red Keep, I bet she'd like it even if she hadn't done that.  What a cool and unique gift it would have made.

I think it is interesting that Jon literally handed Dany the jawbone of a (baby?) dragon- especially when R/L were referenced later in the episode.  Reminded me strongly of the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal and how Rhaegar placed the crown of blue roses in Lyanna's lap.  I have read several analyses of that which suggest that is a sexual metaphor representing Rhaegar also giving her a child.  Yet another baby hint for Jon and Dany?

[YaddaYadda]

48 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I've always imagined Rhaegar as handsome and manly  so anything Legolas-like would have been one of the worst castings I could imagine. But again, I'm not an Elf person.

What impressed me in that scene was how, in a handfuls of seconds, they managed to convey "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna". I could swear I heard Barristan's voice over Bran's.

If there is no Robert's Rebellion spin-off I think more will be learned about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the prophecy, etc. in S8. If only because imo those dragon eggs didn't come out of nowhere and didn't land by accident in a Targaryen's "loyalist" hands.

There will be no Robert's Rebellion spin-off, so we might as well all go to our graves wanting for that.

About the Rhaegar/Lyanna scene, the forehead touch was sweet, because I'm a sucker for those, but for a hot second, I thought he was going to poke her eye out with his nose.

I'll stop now.

[Misplaced]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:29 PM, Blonde Gator said:

There are only a couple of people who know about wildfire at this point.  Cersei, Qyburn, and Tyrion.  Am I missing anyone else (besides the pyromancers)?

Doesn't Jaime know?  And didn't he (more or less) tell Brienne?  I thought I remembered from the Season 3 hot-tub scene with Brienne (not THAT kind of hot-tub scene, turn off your dirty minds...well, ok, it was sort of that kind of hot-tub scene, except for the whole corrupting-hand passing-out thing) that Jaime told her the Mad King had buried wildfire under the city -- specifically, "under the Red Keep, under the Sept of Baelor", and all over everywhere.  Which cache of wildfire did Tyrion use against Stannis' fleet, the one under the Red Keep or another buried somewhere else?  In any case my vague-plus memory is reminding me Jaime said it was "everywhere under the city" which means all of King's Landing could go ka-boom in the Illudium Explosive Q-36 Space Modulator kind of way ("Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!").  That would be an awesome way to obliterate King's Landing as in Dany's vision, leaving s(S)now on the Iron Throne.  

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

I agree that cutting the scene helped, but Sansa still looks like a dunderhead.  From S6E10, Sansa says to Jon "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger".  She needed to take her own advice.

Cutting the scene did not make Sansa look better to me.  I always thought she was looking to LF as her sole supporter and taking his advice to heart. I always believed the conflict with Arya was real because Sansa was thisclose to being on the wrong side of the family again.  And for all the constant complaining about Jon's intelligence, Sansa showed that she was a major league fool when she continued to let LF get between her and Jon. Slow learner indeed. I still picture her face under the word "moron" in the dictionary because I still don't believe her basic nature has changed.  

[Francie]

21 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Nice thought about Barristan, may he RIP.  Perhaps if he'd been portrayed by a more charismatic actor (a la Davos), he'd still be around.  Barristan was a much beloved ASOIAF character who was killed off in the series well before his time, I'm afraid. 

Bite your tongue! There was nothing uncharismatic about Ian McElhinney!

[Blonde Gator]

10 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Doesn't Jaime know?  And didn't he (more or less) tell Brienne?  I thought I remembered from the Season 3 hot-tub scene with Brienne (not THAT kind of hot-tub scene, turn off your dirty minds...well, ok, it was sort of that kind of hot-tub scene, except for the whole corrupting-hand passing-out thing) that Jaime told her the Mad King had buried wildfire under the city -- specifically, "under the Red Keep, under the Sept of Baelor", and all over everywhere.  Which cache of wildfire did Tyrion use against Stannis' fleet, the one under the Red Keep or another buried somewhere else?  In any case my vague-plus memory is reminding me Jaime said it was "everywhere under the city" which means all of King's Landing could go ka-boom in the Illudium Explosive Q-36 Space Modulator kind of way ("Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!").  That would be an awesome way to obliterate King's Landing as in Dany's vision, leaving s(S)now on the Iron Throne.  

Yes, I mentioned that.  Please re-read the rest of my post.  There are many people who KNOW about wildfire, but only a few select people who know that there's likely a gigantic stash of it, and even fewer people who know that there may still be Pyromancers around, making more of it.

11 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Cutting the scene did not make Sansa look better to me.  I always thought she was looking to LF as her sole supporter and taking his advice to heart. I always believed the conflict with Arya was real because Sansa was thisclose to being on the wrong side of the family again.  And for all the constant complaining about Jon's intelligence, Sansa showed that she was a major league fool when she continued to let LF get between her and Jon. Slow learner indeed. I still picture her face under the word "moron" in the dictionary because I still don't believe her basic nature has changed.  

I've mentioned this before, but I've read that due to production issues, D&D's crew have had to make cuts and edits which muddied up the waters in various stories.  This is certainly that. 

I suspect they think we notice it, or if we do, we won't be bothered by it.  The most egregious case was Arya leaving Bravos, acting like cock of the walk as she booked her ride out of there, and immediately getting ambushed by the Waif.  Jarring, and nonsensical, and we viewers DEFINITELY notices.  *sigh*

[SimoneS]

30 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Ah, but his only other sex scene on this show was with Rose Leslie (Ygritte), who I'd definitely consider longer and angular--next to Kit, at least. Then again, the workarounds in that particular scene very successfully sidestepped the height issue, IMHO. *creeps off to gutter*

I had forgotten that Jon had a sex scene with Ygritte. I went back and watched it YT. Other than him "bending the knee," there really was a nothing much in that scene. I found the scene with Dany was way more explicit and intense even though it was shorter.  

Have to say that I never liked Jon's relationship with Ygritte because of his deception and the lies so he could stay alive to return to Night Watch. I know that Ygritte knew, but still, it was obviously that she kept hoping that he would choose her. Tragic.

[ulkis]

Did GRRM give a reason for shooting down a Robert's Rebellion spin-off, or did he just say no and that's it?

[Oscirus]

 I always saw it as Sansa wearily trusting littlefinger until he gave her that stupid  piece of advice. After that she knew she had to get rid of him once and for all.

5 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Did GRRM give a reason for shooting down a Robert's Rebellion spin-off, or did he just say no and that's it?

He basically  said you'd know everything  you need to know about the rebellion by the end of this series.

[stillshimpy]

48 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I think it is interesting that Jon literally handed Dany the jawbone of a (baby?) dragon- especially when R/L were referenced later in the episode.  Reminded me strongly of the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal and how Rhaegar placed the crown of blue roses in Lyanna's lap.  I have read several analyses of that which suggest that is a sexual metaphor representing Rhaegar also giving her a child.  Yet another baby hint for Jon and Dany?

Nice catch!  I bet you're right.  So, I'm going to admit that right up until that moment, I thought it was the jawbone of a person and was insanely distracted by the "PUT THE GUY'S JAW DOWN!" of it all.  Makes a ton more sense that it was a dragon.  

[Misplaced]

On 8/29/2017 at 7:49 PM, stillshimpy said:

The worst of it is that he'll feel betrayed by Ned long before he ever gets around to "Wow, did you ever pull one over on the Kingdoms!" because truthfully, Ned did betray Jon by letting him join the Night's Watch without giving him even the tiniest hint that there were reasons not to.  

What Ned did was very self-sacrificing and honored his sister's memory but it is also the reason Catelyn was such an ass to him.  It's also the reason he grew up feeling worthless. 

Now, it's set up to be the reason that he projectile vomits when he finds out who he just fucked. I don't believe Jon would have made that choice had he possessed that information, so he was just betrayed on an emotional level again by the secret keepers of the kingdoms. 

Ned's 'self-sacrifice' and permitting Jon to be treated like dirt is also, fortunately or unfortunately, the reason Jon is ... well ... alive.  Or, "breathing," as Jon might say.

Recall that Ned encouraged Jon to join the Night's Watch when he thought Cersei's children were legit Baratheon fawns, not illegit Lannister cubs.  If Ned had any glimpse of that future, I am not convinced he would have sent Jon north.  At the time, he thought Jon was a potential usurper to his best bud's throne.  So really, there was no reason on earth not to let Jon take the oath, just like Maester Aemon. 

Jon's not stupid except when he's a bit thick, so I think he'll get to all those conclusions in the end, which does not mean he won't have a hella lot of turmoil along the way.   

I am tending to think Jon's greater internal/external vomiting will be learning he has a prior right to the throne than the queen to whom he pledged his oath, rather than he's kin with the woman he's, er, known biblically.  I'm pretty sure he'll get a bit squicked by learning she's actually Auntie Mame, but the conflict that tears him in half is more likely to be Dany learning that she isn't, in fact, the last Targeryan nor is she the heir to the IT, around which she's built her identity.  I'm not wholly sure about that, but I've been thinking about it anyway.

Of course he'll be grappling with his identity across all facets of his life, but this one is a real downer.  

PS -- edited to add, I think Ned's self-sacrifice was actually a self-sacrifice....the quotation marks above were meant to be a real quotation from the OP and not a sarcastic editorial comment!  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced
Apology to Ned

[MadMouse]

25 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I had forgotten that Jon had a sex scene with Ygritte. I went back and watched it YT. Other than him "bending the knee," there really was a nothing much in that scene. I found the scene with Dany was way more explicit and intense even though it was shorter.  

Have to say that I never liked Jon's relationship with Ygritte because of his deception and the lies so he could stay alive to return to Night Watch. I know that Ygritte knew, but still, it was obviously that she kept hoping that he would choose her. Tragic.

I think its even weirder in the books, she's what like nineteen or twenty and there's a clear power dynamic she's using over him. If the genders were reversed alot more people would take issue with it. But its a nice little parallel with Dany and Drogo situation. 

[Misplaced]

47 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Yes, I mentioned that.  Please re-read the rest of my post.  There are many people who KNOW about wildfire, but only a few select people who know that there's likely a gigantic stash of it, and even fewer people who know that there may still be Pyromancers around, making more of it.

Mmm, sorry, but you didn't mention Jaime or Brienne.  I thought it was fair game to post on them knowing because you said, right there, "am I missing anyone" .... unless perhaps your words "yes I mentioned that" are referring to something else?  In which case, oyah, let's chat.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Misplaced
Being a bit more bolshie

[Blonde Gator]

21 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Did GRRM give a reason for shooting down a Robert's Rebellion spin-off, or did he just say no and that's it?

IIRC, the official HBO line was "you'll learn everything you need to know by the time GOT is concluded", or words to that effect.

We'll probably get THE Dance of Dragons, the Targ civil wars.  Talk about big budgets.  I just hope they do a better job on the color of the non-Drogon dragons.  I am very disappointed that once Dany's dragons were into season 3 or so, it was very hard to distinguish them from one another in flight.  Viserion should have been very light...he was described as the "White Dragon" in the books, and Rhaegal is supposed to be moss green on the bottom, and lighter green on top and "points" (as in a Siamese Cat, I suppose).   Even in the close-ups of our last scene of all three together, it's hard to tell which dragon isn't Drogon.  I'll be looking forward to seeing more dragons, particularly if the CGI artists read the books carefully for descriptions of these creatures.

Having whined about their colors, however....there wasn't one thing wrong with the CGI or the mechanics of the dragons in this series.  They truly look like they could actually exist, nothing about them looked fake or imaginary.  I absolutely LOVED the effects of the close-ups of both Drogon and Viserion in Ep. 5 & 6.  Drogon's facial musculature, and his "smelling" Jon with his gums, like a horse, was fantastic, as were his facial movements when he was purring like a kitten.  And both close-ups of dragon eye's were spectacular.  Emmy-worthy effects, IMO.  Those close ups could be my very favorite things about this season.  Oh, and Ice Viserion's flight movements have been made more mechanical, choppy, and far less graceful than the flight of live dragons.  I don't know how they'd improve on the basics of the dragons at this point, other than their coloration. 

[mac123x]

40 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I had forgotten that Jon had a sex scene with Ygritte. I went back and watched it YT. Other than him "bending the knee," there really was a nothing much in that scene. I found the scene with Dany was way more explicit and intense even though it was shorter.  

Interesting bit of trivia: at the time they filmed the Jon / Ygritte sex scene Kit Harrington had a broken foot.  They mention it in the commentary track - when Jon jumps into the pool with her, that's a body double.

[stillshimpy]

7 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Ned's 'self-sacrifice' and permitting Jon to be treated like dirt is also, fortunately or unfortunately, the reason Jon is ... well ... alive.  Or, "breathing," as Jon might say.

 

Well, Ned sacrificed the perception of his honor, which was intact throughout his life but he allowed people to believe it was not for the sake of Jon, so that is actually pretty much the definition of self-sacrifice.   

However, keeping Jon so close and claiming him as his own rather than figuring out where to send him, or coming up with anything else, "We had to put flame to a tavern to drive out Targaryen loyalist, this was the child of a cook who perished in that conflagration, totally innocent.  I'm having the blacksmith raise him."  Would have kept Jon close to hand and provided a cover story that wouldn't have infuriated Cat.  

It was actually that Ned knew Jon was his sister's son that he couldn't simply assign him as a war orphan to be raised within Winterfell.  It's that Ned's honor demanded that Jon know he was part of his family but since Ned wasn't actually built for a lot of subterfuge, he kind of made some key mistakes along the way.  

But he did hit upon the whole, "If I claim him as mine, everyone will chuckle and say they knew it all along, I'm a hypocrite" and for the most part seemed to live with that perception.  

Ned's "tell my wife that this is my child"  that hosed Jon and caused Cat to hate him. Although, truthfully, it isn't as if she'd have hated him less if she knew his parentage because to put it mildly, she was not reasonable in the way that she treated Jon.  She was horrible and abusive.  I don't hate Cat anywhere near as much as others, but she was hideous to a little kid and shouldn't have been even if he'd been the embodiment of her husband's lapse in honor.   

A more skill liar would have figured out a story that involved one of his men who died, someone who did like to spread it around so it wouldn't have felled the honor of a dead man, and say simply that he owed it to Ser Got It Plenty to raise the boy in a noble house. 

But Ned's lying skills only extended as far as his ability to keep up the ruse and it had an impact on how everyone viewed him.    

There just were more options on the table. 

I think I'm the only person who would really dig a prequel.  I'd love to see a story that fleshes this out and bonus, can't needlessly kill the shit out of people just for gasps and horror value.   Well, that's okay, I don't mind planting my flag on an island:  I'm sorry we aren't going to get a prequel.   It's the more interesting story to me on some levels. 

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

But the Targaryens do suffer from the signs of inbreeding within the actual books.  The line about the coin being flipped every time a Targaryen is born.  They run towards madness that can render them incapable of functioning -- one tried to drink wildfire in order to become an actual dragon -- so it is present within the story as a concern. 

It's present within the story on the show too.  Viserys, the Mad King, some of Dany's more deranged moments "Fire cannot harm a dragon"  she says as she watched her brother die and it was said with fascination. 

Having Dany burning Tarlys alive should end up being significant because it is reminiscent of the Mad King and it's not the first time she's done it, either.  

A fair point.  But we can say that incest at least works differently on that world, yes?  It apparently has benefits for Targaryeans that do not exist in the real world.

Dany has always been fairly ruthless though, I don't see that as madness.  Even Ned Stark executed people.  And Viserys had it coming.

Someone also suggested Joffrey suffered from madness, but I think he was just a gigantic jerk.

 

By the way, does anyone have an idea as to why Littlefinger was plotting to get Arya killed?  Is it just that he saw her as dangerous and wanted her out of the way?  So he could influence Sansa more easily?  And what did he think Jon Snow would do when he came back and found out that Arya had been executed?

[Blonde Gator]

13 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

Mmm, sorry, but you didn't mention Jaime or Brienne so I thought it was fair game to post on that !

My apologies.  I got wrapped around the axle last night over the total blank on wildfire, and made two or three posts.  You probably responded to a clarification of an earlier (or later) post.  So of course you are correct, fair game!

I think we are in total agreement about this aspect of the story.  It's still very strange that the Jon/Dany contingent (which includes Varys & Tyrion) made no mention of wildfire as a weapon.  Cersei et. al., of course wouldn't mention it.   And I'm leaving Brienne out, of the convo, for now, because as far as I know, she's never spoken to Davos or Jon, who have been seen with her multiple times in the same room in Season 7.

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

IIRC, the official HBO line was "you'll learn everything you need to know by the time GOT is concluded", or words to that effect.

We'll probably get THE Dance of Dragons, the Targ civil wars.  Talk about big budgets.  I just hope they do a better job on the color of the non-Drogon dragons.  I am very disappointed that once Dany's dragons were into season 3 or so, it was very hard to distinguish them from one another in flight.  Viserion should have been very light...he was described as the "White Dragon" in the books, and Rhaegal is supposed to be moss green on the bottom, and lighter green on top and "points" (as in a Siamese Cat, I suppose).   Even in the close-ups of our last scene of all three together, it's hard to tell which dragon isn't Drogon.  I'll be looking forward to seeing more dragons, particularly if the CGI artists read the books carefully for descriptions of these creatures.

 

No rebellion, no dance of the dragons, no Duncan and egg

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

 

 

By the way, does anyone have an idea as to why Littlefinger was plotting to get Arya killed?  Is it just that he saw her as dangerous and wanted her out of the way?  So he could influence Sansa more easily?  And what did he think Jon Snow would do when he came back and found out that Arya had been executed?

He wanted Sansa isolated

[Misplaced]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

My apologies.  I got wrapped around the axle last night over the total blank on wildfire, and made two or three posts.  You probably responded to a clarification of an earlier (or later) post.  So of course you are correct, fair game!

I think we are in total agreement about this aspect of the story.  It's still very strange that the Jon/Dany contingent (which includes Varys & Tyrion) made no mention of wildfire as a weapon.  Cersei et. al., of course wouldn't mention it.   And I'm leaving Brienne out, of the convo, for now, because as far as I know, she's never spoken to Davos or Jon, who have been seen with her multiple times in the same room in Season 7.

Ha, no worries.  We are on the same page, which as far as I'm concerned, is a Good Thing.  Rock on.  :-)

[Blonde Gator]

3 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

Well, Ned sacrificed the perception of his honor, which was intact throughout his life but he allowed people to believe it was not for the sake of Jon, so that is actually pretty much the definition of self-sacrifice.   

However, keeping Jon so close and claiming him as his own rather than figuring out where to send him, or coming up with anything else, "We had to put flame to a tavern to drive out Targaryen loyalist, this was the child of a cook who perished in that conflagration, totally innocent.  I'm having the blacksmith raise him."  Would have kept Jon close to hand and provided a cover story that wouldn't have infuriated Cat.  

It was actually that Ned knew Jon was his sister's son that he couldn't simply assign him as a war orphan to be raised within Winterfell.  It's that Ned's honor demanded that Jon know he was part of his family but since Ned wasn't actually built for a lot of subterfuge, he kind of made some key mistakes along the way.  

But he did hit upon the whole, "If I claim him as mine, everyone will chuckle and say they knew it all along, I'm a hypocrite" and for the most part seemed to live with that perception.  

Ned's "tell my wife that this is my child"  that hosed Jon and caused Cat to hate him. Although, truthfully, it isn't as if she'd have hated him less if she knew his parentage because to put it mildly, she was not reasonable in the way that she treated Jon.  She was horrible and abusive.  I don't hate Cat anywhere near as much as others, but she was hideous to a little kid and shouldn't have been even if he'd been the embodiment of her husband's lapse in honor.   

A more skill liar would have figured out a story that involved one of his men who died, someone who did like to spread it around so it wouldn't have felled the honor of a dead man, and say simply that he owed it to Ser Got It Plenty to raise the boy in a noble house. 

But Ned's lying skills only extended as far as his ability to keep up the ruse and it had an impact on how everyone viewed him.    

There just were more options on the table. 

I think I'm the only person who would really dig a prequel.  I'd love to see a story that fleshes this out and bonus, can't needlessly kill the shit out of people just for gasps and horror value.   Well, that's okay, I don't mind planting my flag on an island:  I'm sorry we aren't going to get a prequel.   It's the more interesting story to me on some levels. 

My wish for a prequel is seeing the First Men....Garth Greenhand, and all of his progeny, who founded most of the many great and formerly great houses of Westeros.    We'd see the founding of House Stark, Redwyne, Hightower, Gardner, Florents, Oakhart, and many others. 

[RedheadZombie]

I'm not completely caught up yet, but there's something I haven't yet seen mentioned.  Cersei very clearly told Tyrion he was responsible for two of her children's deaths, and Joffrey was definitely left out.  Considering Tyrion was tried for Joffrey's death, wouldn't he have immediately realized she now knows who really killed Joffrey?  That's a big reveal and it occurred off camera.  A big miss, in my opinion, although I loved the scene overall.  But how hard would it have been to show Jaime relaying the info to Tyrion?  And a throw away line from Tyrion to Cersei about being cleared of Joffrey's death.

And as much as I loved the scene between Olenna and Jaime, I wish Jaime could have gotten off a last shot of - so you were going to happily sit quietly while my brother died for your crime, and Sansa was being hunted down for same. 

Obviously I can't forgive Olenna for this.  I was happy to find out, in a season three re-watch, that Olenna was against Margaery marrying Joffrey, and thought her son as imbecile for putting the plan in action.  So technically, Olenna was cleaning up Mace's mess, and if that involved innocent victims, well she was saving her granddaughter.  I still think she was a bitch.