S07.E06: Beyond the Wall

[Blonde Gator]

43 minutes ago, Francie said:

You're touching on what I've found interesting about the biological negative consequences of incest.  The show, so far, has dodged them. With Targaryens, the issue hasn't been potential physical deformities or severe mental impairments, but this "mad"  gene.  Even the Lannister children have spoken of the "flip the coin" to see if a child turns out normal or cruel.  But it's never about the actual severe birth defects.  Maybe Targaryens are different, genetically speaking. But even then, it seems a cop out to have the only issue be that child will, one day after being spoiled with great power, "go mad" and abuse that power.

We've seen both Joffrey and Viserys, products of incest.  And they were "mad" children, cruel and venal, with not one drop of empathy for anyone.  Either one on the throne as an adult would have been called "the Mad King" in no time. Joffrey was still somewhat under the control of his mother and Tywin, but he was well on his way to certifiable when Olenna offed him.

Myrcella and Tommen were normal.  So we have actually seen 5 kids (including Dany) who were the product of incest, and 40% of them were nuts.  And Dany is skirting the line if we're to believe Varys....so that makes the odds exactly 50 - 50, as the old "flip the coin" saying indicates.

[polyhymnia]

On 8/20/2017 at 11:14 PM, VCRTracking said:

I have always been an Arya fan but she was acting like a PSYCHO this episode. As I said in an earlier episode thread, Sansa probably deserved to be called out but the way she did it was disturbing. People going on about Sansa being rude to Brienne. Arya was calmly and coldly telling her own sister she was going to cut off and wear her face! Deliberately frightening her and enjoying it!  This isn't her avenging her family against the Freys. I'm not going to root for her this time. Telling that heartwarming story about Ned for the punchline that it was Sansa's fault he died? WTF? She knew even Jon would be more understanding about the letter. Arya doesn't care that turning the lords against Sansa would hurt Jon too. Arya despises Sansa not for her snobby attitude.  She despises her for being "weak" and I think that's why some fans hate her too.

It was pretty lame and out of left field.  Also, her character up to this point wouldn't be so chatty about her suspicions.  If she thought Sansa were really a traitor, she'd just figure out a way to kill Sansa.

On 8/21/2017 at 1:24 AM, Shimmergloom said:

Me too.  This makes me so mad.  I've waited for years for them to be reunited and what I get is this mess.  And I could even get behind it, if it were written better, but this is a mess that is basically just coming out of left field.

One day Arya is going in for the 2nd hug on Sansa.  Next episode she already distrusts Sansa with no build up at all.

It's like how Bran went from normal to robot with no transition at all.

And where is Bran during all of this?  Just hanging out in the weirwood constantly?

On 8/21/2017 at 5:20 AM, Nmissi said:

On rewatch, I think we're all misinterpreting the sansa/arya scene. Arya starts by talking about how the rules aren't fair, and girls can't be who they want to be. She's making common ground with Sansa. But then she throws the letter in her sister's face, to put her off guard. Later, she catches Sansa searching her room, threatens her- then hands over her dagger. I think Arya is demonstrating that she's capable of protecting Sansa, she's showing her what she can do, how much she has learned. Then Littlefinger advises Sansa that brienne is her best protection and wouldn't let Arya harm her... so what does Sansa do? She sends Brienne away. I think she did that to PROTECT her sister- she's afraid Arya will come at her and Brienne may have to intervene- to prevent that, Brienne has to go.. 

I like this interpretation of this but I wish it were written a little better.

On 8/21/2017 at 7:37 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

Know what this show's making me do? Appreciate how great the ending of Breaking Bad had to be. Because this is now 2.5 episodes that are on a really, really, really bad run. What seems to be getting missed because the dragons were in this episode (guilty as charged here too, anytime a dragon comes and fries shit I immediately react like "wow, this episode is good" until further consideration), this show continues to do something that bad shows do for plot purposes: leave a problem in play STRICTLY because the two people involved in the conflict stop one sentence short of anyplace a normal conversation is concerned. I'm thinking specifically of Arya and Sansa, obviously, and the scroll problem. 

Arya finds the scroll, confronts Sansa about it. At any point, if Sansa just says "Look, I know what this looks like, but you have to understand my circumstances, blah blah blah...oh just one question before I go on...was this scroll in ANY way connected with Littlefinger? Maybe he didn't give it to you directly, but was the whiff of Littlefinger, the most notorious schemer in the entire kingdom, anywhere NEAR this transaction, in any way?"

"You know, now that you mention it..." intrafamily drama deflated, both girls don't look like dummies, and the viewer can get the drama from a better source: how will these two try to play LF, if at all, and will they succeed. Instead, this show's painting by really boring numbers.

I also hated that the interminable hike from Eastwatch went on and on simply because each character had to pair to take some narrative dumps.. The scene with Jon and Jorah was a total waste of time, everyone knows he's not taking the sword and I could have written the speech Jorah gave myself. UGH, don't do this Game of Thrones! I haven't even talked about the REST of the problems with this show, or the telegraph that Jon is going to tie, riding Rhaegal, right before or as Rhaegal and Jon kill the Night King and simultaneously take down the ice dragon and like 90% of the wight army. Seriously, thanks again Breaking Bad. 

Yes - people having actual conversations like they would instead of the dialogue servicing the plot.  I also wanted Sansa to counter the Game of Faces with a Game of Slaps.

On 8/21/2017 at 8:43 AM, nachomama said:

All these heart to heart talks between the Magnificent 7, The Hound and Tornumd, Jon and Jorah, Jon and Beric and still no conversation about Sam saving Jorah. sigh.

Or the Hound, Gendry, and Jon not talking about that little spitfire Arya whom they all know and love.  And the Hound and Gendry both know that the other one knows Arya.  You think they'd mention it to Jon Snow during the long (maybe) trudge to the frozen lake.

I am going to miss Thoros.  Also, it sucks to get your only wizard killed off.  

With one episode left this season I do not think they are going to be able to satisfactorily wrap up the Littlefinger plot.  He hasn't made sense to me from the moment he let Robyn Arryn out from under his thumb.  He may talk a mean game about chaos and ladders and yes, he certainly got the wheels going on the war of the Five Kings but he doesn't seem to be able to bring it home.  And it really doesn't make sense.

Maybe Sansa should have mentioned that she helped poison Joffrey.  I mean, she did it unwittingly but Arya might be impressed by it.

[VCRTracking]

Thank you to the person on Reddit who said "Jon was saved first by his aunt and then his uncle".

[Blonde Gator]

26 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I may be tinfoiling a bit, but the focus on Jon's knife to the heart, Sansa's comment that Jon's "heart would stop" when he sees Arya again, and the fact that Dany had to devour a horse heart when pregnant with Rhaego is not sitting well with me.  All of it feels very sacrificial- maybe either Jon and/or Dany will have to metaphorically sacrifice their heart in some way.  I had the horrible thought the other day that if Dany has a child, maybe the child will have to be sacrificed, just like Craster's sons, to the NK to end the Long Night.  I don't know, but there's something about all this heart foreshadowing that feels foreboding to me.  This show is making me so paranoid...

 

Totally agree.  I think Jon is the first true friend Dany has ever had.  She's had advisers and servants and soldiers, but never a friend on equal footing with her.  Sir Jorah is probably the closest and while I think she does love him and respect him, he has always genuflected to her, and, in the times he hasn't, she quickly put him in his place.  Tyrion isn't really her friend, either, even though he is in her inner circle because I question whether Dany completely trusts him or not.  Jon definitely stands out as a unique relationship for her because in a very short time, I sense that she respects, trusts and possibly loves him more than anyone else. 

Don't forget the legend of Azor Ahai, who had to temper his sword, Light Bringer, in the heart of his beloved wife, Nissa Nissa.  Melidsandre is always blabbing about Azor Ahai reborn (and "parts to play). 

Now I'm depressed. 

[DigitalCount]

I feel like that has already happened though, thanks to Rhaegar.

[domina89]

Just now, DigitalCount said:

I feel like that has already happened though, thanks to Rhaegar.

I feel the same.  That's why I don't worry too much about the Nissa Nissa prophecy.  I'm one of the ones that believe the Jon is Lightbringer theory, and he will have to be the one to end the NK in one way or another.  It's the HOW that worries me!

[Hana Chan]

31 minutes ago, domina89 said:

 Sir Jorah is probably the closest and while I think she does love him and respect him, he has always genuflected to her, and, in the times he hasn't, she quickly put him in his place.  Tyrion isn't really her friend, either, even though he is in her inner circle because I question whether Dany completely trusts him or not.  Jon definitely stands out as a unique relationship for her because in a very short time, I sense that she respects, trusts and possibly loves him more than anyone else. 

Jon is the first who doesn't seem totally awed by her and her list of titles. He seemed a bit uncertain in his first dealings with her, which I assumed was a result that he's still feeling his way as a king in his own right, but he didn't seem particularly intimidated by her. Sure, he had a healthy respect for the Dothraki and the dragons, but Dany herself? He respects her, but he's not exactly afraid of her. And when push came to shove, he held his ground with her and reminded her that he was a king and she couldn't stop him from doing what he wanted/needed to. Other people have defied her, but they were enemies. Jon does appear to be a special case.

[FnkyChkn34]

Question about the episode - 

The Hound had the captive wight, and he was getting on a rowboat.  Are they also on the ship that Jon, Davos, and Dany are on?  He's not rowing the whole way to wherever, is he?  And for that matter, are we to assume that Gendry is on the ship too, but Beric is not?

[GrailKing]

50 minutes ago, screamin said:

I just realized that Sansa already HAS some proof of LF's treachery within reach that doesn't depend on Bran (which the other lords couldn't be expected to take seriously in a court of law). Wolkan apparently gave the letter to LF on the understanding that it was by Sansa's request. Which means that if she goes to him and asks how Arya got that letter (he's the obvious person to ask, being the one in charge of the ravenmail archives), he has no reason not to tell her that LF asked for it, saying it was on her behalf. She thus has evidence that he lied to her about it...unless of course Wolkan is already bought up completely by LF.

This is what I said ( I don't know how many pages back ) Sansa's smart, as Jon's eyes and ears she want to know all coming and goings on in WF this includes the rookery, I would think the Maester would be obliged to let her know of anyone receiving, asking for or sending letters.

So as you say the scroll is real, Sansa needs to ask, but if Wolcum is loyal ( after Ramsey I be surprised if he wasn't ) he would have already informed her of it.

So she calls a forum and starts asking questions of people, like the maid, then ask Wolkum and LF is screwed.

[stagmania]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

And in this world, where Queens fucking their brothers has become a punchline even at the Wall, an aunt/nephew relationship will likely elicit yawns. 

I've said it before... even if Jon and Dany don't feel much romantically towards one another, a political marriage between them makes tremendous sense. Jon right now controls the single largest territory in Westeros and is a respected warrior. And while he may be on the shorter side, he's very easy on the eyes and has decent manners. Dany could do far, far worse.

Agree, and I'm struggling to even come up with another acceptable political marriage within the more limited world of the show. Who's left of the major houses that would be on her level and deliver her even half of what Jon does? Remaining eligible males include Jaime (as if), Euron (omg) and ...Edmure? If they ever find him? I guess she could always give sickly little Robyn a try.

So yeah, Jon is pretty much it, if she is going to have a marriage. And they've definitely set up the story for that.

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

Based on the Inside the Episode comments (something like "Sansa has a genuine fear that Arya will try to murder her, and that fear will carry into the final episode") I don't think Sansa is play acting at all.  I'm holding out the very very (x37) slim possibility that Arya is playing them both.  I can see a confrontation where she exposes his treachery, kills him, then says to Sansa "I'm sorry I didn't tell you what I was planning, but I needed your reactions to look real".  Eyerollingly contrived, but then this entire plot thread has been.

It always pains me a little to see viewers coming up with infinitely smarter plots that the show is definitely not going to live up to.

[Hana Chan]

I don't know if I'd want to be on a ship with a captive wright... since they can't swim, being towed in a dingy with someone guarding might be the safest way to transport it.

And I do have to add that I totally love how no bullshit the Hound is in handling the wright. First with the "extreme rendition" hood, then literally skewering it onto one of Drogon's spikes for the ride to Eastwatch. He's practically a wright whisperer.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hana Chan

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Agree, and I'm struggling to even come up with another acceptable political marriage within the more limited world of the show. Who's left of the major houses that would be on her level and deliver her even half of what Jon does? Remaining eligible males include Jaime (as if), Euron (omg) and ...Edmure? If they ever find him? I guess she could always give sickly little Robyn a try.

 

Edmure is married already, though I imagine that marriage will have some slight domestic difficulties.

[stagmania]

Just now, screamin said:

Edmure is married already, though I imagine that marriage will have some slight domestic difficulties.

Oh, right, I forgot! Knock him off the list.

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

Edmure is married already, though I imagine that marriage will have some slight domestic difficulties.

yeah, but his wife is a gorgeous young woman he get over it as soon as they know her father is dead.

[YaddaYadda]

42 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I feel like that has already happened though, thanks to Rhaegar.

 

39 minutes ago, domina89 said:

I feel the same.  That's why I don't worry too much about the Nissa Nissa prophecy.  I'm one of the ones that believe the Jon is Lightbringer theory, and he will have to be the one to end the NK in one way or another.  It's the HOW that worries me!

I think there might be a couple of hints at this in the books about this. Stannis calls Jon the weapon that the Lord of Light has given him. That's a pretty big statement even if Stannis is thinking in terms of getting the north through Jon. But in the end, that's what Jon is supposed to be, a weapon against the Others. I still think this whole thing will end up diplomatically though. 

Jon's arc is filled with metaphors. I think he was legit born under the bleeding star. 

I noticed that the WW aren't great at fighting. Jon dispatched two of them rather quickly. I wonder if it's because they're used to humans just falling in front of them because they have those ice swords and that magic behind them. 

32 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So as you say the scroll is real, Sansa needs to ask, but if Wolcum is loyal ( after Ramsey I be surprised if he wasn't ) he would have already informed her of it.

Would he if he thought the order came from Sansa? Littlefinger just needs to go.

We went from him starting the War of the Five Kings by having Lysa poison Jon Arryn to this version. I hope they don't forget to burn the body after he's dead because I'd hate to see his ass be raised as a wight. Knowing him though, he'd probably try to create a mess with the WW and the NK so that he can take his place and rule the undead. Because you know, LF is boss.

I hate his ass so damn much!

Edited August 22, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Pogojoco]

People are forgetting Tyrion on the list of marriageable men. 

 

I've decided the chains were Giant chains- but the show should have had wight giants hauling the dragons out. Giants have been seen in the wight army this season. Where were they?

I'm focusing on this because the wight mission, Jon/Dany and Sansa/Arya are all so dumb.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, screamin said:

Edmure is married already, though I imagine that marriage will have some slight domestic difficulties.

Even if Edmure was not married, the fact that he is a coward and a moron, who sold out his house,  and a worse archer than 10 year old Bran was, would make him less than a suitable match for the Mother of Dragons.  Now that Dontos Hollard is dead, there is an opening for Court Fool that Edmure would be a great fit for, though. )

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Would he if he thought the order came from Sansa? Littlefinger just needs to go.

 

I could see him doing what LF asked, ( he did say it took a while to find )go to Sansa, and Sansa telling him to give it. The trap is now set.

[blackwing]

I'm unclear on a few things....

The utter stupidity of Jon's plan.  He is a terrible leader.  Did he think it was going to be so easy just to pick off a straggler dead thing and then go gently into that good night without attracting any attention?  Why not have gotten Daenerys to give him a ride in the first place?  Swoop in, grab one, swoop out.  It probably would have taken them less than an hour.  Stoopid.

Where did all of those red shirts come from?  Last episode, I thought we clearly only saw the Westeros Magnificent Seven setting out on their own.  This episode, their party seemed to double, and the only purpose was to provide red shirts to get sacrificed.  Stoopid.

So the Night King and his right hand are White Walkers.  There seem to be a few White Walkers interspersed among the wights in the army.  Jon's sword is made of Valyrian steel so destroys White Walkers instantly.  But doesn't work the same way against wights?  Why not?  And if Jon is aware that dragonglass also instantly kills White Walkers, how come he didn't take the time to arm everyone with dragonglass weapons from Dragonstone BEFORE setting off beyond the wall?  Stoopid.

After Daenerys saw the Night King kill Viserion, why didn't she make an effort to have her other two dragons torch him?  Sure she might not have known who he was, but clearly he was a being of some skill and importance.  Stoopid.

Why did Benjen reappear without explanation after so many years absent, only to be killed so easily?  I know that the horse would have gone slower with both Benjen and Jon on it, but surely it still could have outrun the wights.  Jon's about 5 foot 6, it's not like he's a big man.  Stoopid.

Tyrion annoys me.  I used to think he was awesome, but this season he has been so Negative Nelly about everything, it's so tiresome.

[FnkyChkn34]

9 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

People are forgetting Tyrion on the list of marriageable men. 

Isn't he technically still married to Sansa?

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

I could see him doing what LF asked, ( he did say it took a while to find )go to Sansa, and Sansa telling him to give it. The trap is now set.

It's still not proof of much, though. If LF were confronted in front of the council of lords for taking the message and then lying about it to Sansa, he could say that he took the message to try to protect Sansa from possibly having it made public, but when Arya stole it he was too embarrassed at having made it easy for her and lied about it. It will look sleazy and dubious (if he REALLY meant to protect Sansa, why not just toss the message in the fire as soon as he got it?) but will it be enough to legally justify LF's execution (which Sansa desperately needs to carry out, like, yesterday?)

Edited August 22, 2017 by screamin

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, blackwing said:

So the Night King and his right hand are White Walkers.  There seem to be a few White Walkers interspersed among the wights in the army.  Jon's sword is made of Valyrian steel so destroys White Walkers instantly.  But doesn't work the same way against wights?  Why not?  And if Jon is aware that dragonglass also instantly kills White Walkers, how come he didn't take the time to arm everyone with dragonglass weapons from Dragonstone BEFORE setting off beyond the wall?  Stoopid.

After Daenerys saw the Night King kill Viserion, why didn't she make an effort to have her other two dragons torch him?  Sure she might not have known who he was, but clearly he was a being of some skill and importance.  Stoopid.

They did have dragonglass weapons.

But what I want to know is where Rhaegal went.  He just peaced out on his own after Viserion was hit.  Dany waits with everyone on Drogon and then takes off, but Rhaegal was already half way back to Eastwatch.  Some loyal dragon he is...

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, screamin said:

It's still not proof of much, though. If LF were confronted in front of the council of lords for taking the message and then lying about it to Sansa, he could say that he took the message to try to protect Sansa from possibly having it made public, but when Arya stole it he was too embarrassed at having made it easy for her and lied about it. It will look sleazy and dubious (if he REALLY meant to protect Sansa, why not just toss the message in the fire as soon as he got it?) but will it be enough to legally justify LF's execution (which Sansa desperately needs to carry out, like, yesterday?)

Then I would think it's either Royce, Glover  or both, add the maid get her testimony, I know the Lords are acting like wind vanes,  but I don't think they want LF in charge.

Add Bran's vision for shock effect and please please LF run through the snow. I want to see a snow wolf hunt you down.

[Pogojoco]

10 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Isn't he technically still married to Sansa?

No. Never consummated and she married Ramsey, which was.

[crowceilidh]

Quote

I thought the walk of exposition was littered with painful and heavy-handed dialogue. 

Me too.  Every conversation had that odour of "lad virtues" too.  The only thing I liked was Tormund's explanation of his lust for Brienne.  I was charmed by the very basic desire to breed large strong children.

Every time the magnificent seven appeared onscreen I counted them.  From 13/14 to 9 or so.  

I think Tyrion's character this season shows very strongly the lack of GRRM.  I wish I knew what he was supposedly thinking, because the constant gloom is getting very very boring.  Every time he has an informal conversation with someone, I am breathless, waiting for some clue about what he authentically is thinking, but every time we get something so shallow and purposeless that it doesn't feel like genuine truth.  I thought Tyrioni brought up the succession to broach the idea of marriage to Jon.  So when she said he was too small for her, I took that metaphorically.  I'm sure this isn't a new thought to most people, but we all seem to be searching for authentic motivations for actions constantly, which is where the show format is really inferior to the book, because when we have enough of the character's inner thoughts, the authenticity isn't a worry.

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Where did all of those red shirts come from?  Last episode, I thought we clearly only saw the Westeros Magnificent Seven setting out on their own.  This episode, their party seemed to double, and the only purpose was to provide red shirts to get sacrificed.  Stoopid.

They were deeper in the tunnel behind Sandor.

[screamin]

2 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Then I would think it's either Royce, Glover  or both, add the maid get her testimony, I know the Lords are acting like wind vanes,  but I don't think they want LF in charge.

Add Bran's vision for shock effect and please please LF run through the snow. I want to see a snow wolf hunt you down.

Oh, hey, here's an idea. Sansa accuses LF before the court of having tried to blackmail her into marrying him, by threatening to reveal the message before the council of lords unless she agrees. Sansa reveals the message herself, has the maester testify that LF asked for the message under the false pretense that Sansa asked for it. Sansa then thanks her sister for nobly getting the message back on her behalf, orders the execution of LF as a duplicitous traitor, reconciling herself to Arya in the bargain. Ale party at WF!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Pogojoco said:

No. Never consummated and she married Ramsey, which was.

True.  But was her marriage to Tyrion ever annulled?  Everyone was convinced (or at least went along with the story) that Tyrion and Sansa conspired to kill Joffrey together and both fled KL.  I doubt annulling the marriage of a couple of "traitors and king slayers" would have been a priority.  

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

They did have dragonglass weapons.

But what I want to know is where Rhaegal went.  He just peaced out on his own after Viserion was hit.  Dany waits with everyone on Drogon and then takes off, but Rhaegal was already half way back to Eastwatch.  Some loyal dragon he is...

The smart choice after he flew right over where Viserion fell. They probably blew their CGI budget on that wight polar bear, because D&D have been wanting that for a long time. More important than having the second dragon, or showing Ghost once this season. (although maybe Ghost not being seen is a good thing because they'd just kill him off).

2 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

No. Never consummated and she married Ramsey, which was.

*dipping the big toe in the great marriage debates*

Was Sansa's wedding to Ramsay even legal? 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

Oh, hey, here's an idea. Sansa accuses LF before the court of having tried to blackmail her into marrying him, by threatening to reveal the message before the council of lords unless she agrees. Sansa reveals the message herself, has the maester testify that LF asked for the message under the false pretense that Sansa asked for it. Sansa then thanks her sister for nobly getting the message back on her behalf, orders the execution of LF as a duplicitous traitor, reconciling herself to Arya in the bargain. Ale party at WF!

Lady Sansa doesn't like ale, lemonade is her drink of choice ( Arya may spike it though ).

[Pogojoco]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

The smart choice after he flew right over where Viserion fell. They probably blew their CGI budget on that wight polar bear, because D&D have been wanting that for a long time. More important than having the second dragon, or showing Ghost once this season. (although maybe Ghost not being seen is a good thing because they'd just kill him off).

*dipping the big toe in the great marriage debates*

Was Sansa's wedding to Ramsay even legal? 

He married her in front of a tree and had sex with her, so yes.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, screamin said:

Oh, hey, here's an idea. Sansa accuses LF before the court of having tried to blackmail her into marrying him, by threatening to reveal the message before the council of lords unless she agrees. Sansa reveals the message herself, has the maester testify that LF asked for the message under the false pretense that Sansa asked for it. Sansa then thanks her sister for nobly getting the message back on her behalf, orders the execution of LF as a duplicitous traitor, reconciling herself to Arya in the bargain. Ale party at WF!

Great plan, but first things first.  Before the Ale Party, LF must actually be executed.  What method?  Does Arya give him the Meryn Trant treatment?  Are Ramsey's hounds still at Winterfell?  Did Sansa "forget" to feed them for a week? :)  Or maybe a quick trip to the  Eyrie so Sweet Robin can get to see a bad, little man fly.  

Edited August 22, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Inquiry said:

Probably my favorite part of this episode was the Jon/Dany boat scene. It was so refreshing to see Dany not being The Queen, but a grieving mother who now realizes the man convalescing before her was right: the threat was always real. Jon (figuratively) bending the knee because Dany had earned it and her tearful gratitude was also nice to see. It showed Dany being vulnerable. Instead of thinking she deserved Jon's loyalty, she hoped she deserved it. That's huge. I also don't think it's an accident that the giant scar wound over Jon's heart was prominently featured throughout that entire scene. It's physically symbolic of Jon's selflessness and bravery (which could also be fairly construed as stupidity. Speaking of, I'm VERY glad they decided to show Dany the scars. There was talk in the spoilers thread that it wouldn't be acknowledged and I was very disappointed. As I said there, it's extremely poignant for Dany to realize that Jon took a literal knife in the heart after she just received a metaphorical one. It was just overall a very lovely, well-acted scene. Although I admittedly snickered when Kit closed his eyes to "get some rest." It looked so awkward. Like the director had just finished saying, "Close your eyes NOW, Kit!" In my head, Jon was freaking out that Dany withdrew her hand (although not all the way at first; she definitely fingertip lingered) and was like "me closing my eyes and acting like I instantly fell asleep is the quickest way to end the embarrassment I now feel." After all, we know Jon's not exactly a ladies man.  

I think the relationship feeling rushed to some is because we're only getting 7 episodes instead of 10. But, honestly, a lot of things have been rushed. Overall, I think the Jon/Dany story is probably the strongest story in Season 7 (what that says about this season, I will leave to your own judgments). 

 

Also, Jon has definitely been staring at Dany throughout the episodes. It's been subtle and the fact that Kit Harrington is a squinter doesn't help, but it's there. Off the top of my head, I can remember Jon staring at Dany in the cave (multiple times there), the beach scene right after the cave, when Dany returned from the Field of Fire 2.0, when he told the council he would lead the wight raiding party, etc. Dany's just been a lot more obvious about it, so it's weird for characters to bring up Jon's stares (Davos, Tyrion) and not hers. 

Only in this day and age could selflessness and bravery be even remotely considered "stupidity".  I guess that's why our world is in the shape its in. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Only in this day and age could selflessness and bravery be even remotely considered "stupidity".  I guess that's why our world is in the shape its in. 

I'm not sure it is this day and age or the GOT universe where selflessness and bravery could be considered stupidity.  Good deeds often bring terrible consequences on GOT.

[GrailKing]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Great plan, but first things first.  Before the Ale Party, LF must actually be executed.  What method?  Does Arya give him the Meryn Trant treatment?  Are Ramsey's hounds still at Winterfell?  Did Sansa "forget" to feed them for a week? :)  Or maybe a quick trip to the  Eyrie so Sweet Robin can get to see a bad, little man fly.  

Sansa- Ghost dinner's ready, and you need a bit of exercise, let's play catch the bird.   

[YaddaYadda]

21 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

He married her in front of a tree and had sex with her, so yes.

I get that, but her marriage to Tyrion was not set aside by a high septon, was it?

[GrailKing]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

I get that, but her marriage to Tyrion was not set aside by a high septon, was it?

Not in book, so either the marriage is of no consequence because one of them dies, or Tyrion ( doubt Sansa go South again )request an annulment stating they both were forced and not consummated.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I get that, but her marriage to Tyrion was not set aside by a high septon, was it?

I'm with you, @YaddaYadda, but I don't know for sure.  I don't think I've ever read about the marriage laws or heard them explained on the show?

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm with you, @YaddaYadda, but I don't know for sure.  I don't think I've ever read about the marriage laws or heard them explained on the show?

In book, a forced marriage isn't legal, and non consummation is grounds for annulment, the request must be brought in person though.

[TaurusRose]

44 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

They did have dragonglass weapons.

But what I want to know is where Rhaegal went.  He just peaced out on his own after Viserion was hit.  Dany waits with everyone on Drogon and then takes off, but Rhaegal was already half way back to Eastwatch.  Some loyal dragon he is...

Leave him alone! This was only his second fight and who'd have thought those ice thingies could kill his brother!?  Poor baby was in shock, scared and traumatized.

[ElizaD]

22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

True.  But was her marriage to Tyrion ever annulled?  Everyone was convinced (or at least went along with the story) that Tyrion and Sansa conspired to kill Joffrey together and both fled KL.  I doubt annulling the marriage of a couple of "traitors and king slayers" would have been a priority.  

In 7x03 Tyrion tells Jon that it was an unconsummated sham marriage, which felt like the show was making it clear to us that the marriage was indeed not valid (and would not be leading to anything in the future): this confirmed that the consummated Ramsay marriage was legal, as was said in season 5 in a Littlefinger/Roose scene, and so Sansa is officially a widow now. She's the Lady of Winterfell, Tyrion has no interest in resuming the marriage, and the non-Cersei monarchs (Jon and Dany) won't force them to continue a marriage they were pressured to enter: no need for a high septon, I think it's clear from what the show has said that we are meant to see the marriage as being over.

[TaurusRose]

23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure it is this day and age or the GOT universe where selflessness and bravery could be considered stupidity.  Good deeds often bring terrible consequences on GOT.

Still failing to see how that qualifies them as stupid.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Leave him alone! This was only his second fight and who'd have thought those ice thingies could kill his brother!?  Poor baby was in shock, scared and traumatized.

I think their CGI budget just ran out.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Leave him alone! This was only his second fight and who'd have thought those ice thingies could kill his brother!?  Poor baby was in shock, scared and traumatized.

If Dragons are like Direwolves, probably sensed his rider's fear.

[Blonde Gator]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

In book, a forced marriage isn't legal, and non consummation is grounds for annulment, the request must be brought in person though.

Book Ramsay married the widowed Lady Hornwood in a forced marriage during the War of the Five Kings, then forced her to make him Lord Hornwood.   Then he put her in a tower and starved her to death.  Also in the book, Alyse Karstark, runs away to the wall to prevent her cousin, Cregan Karstark, from forcefully marrying her and taking Karhold, and the Lordship of the Karstarks (Cregan is from a cadet branch of House Karstark).  Jon arranges a marriage for Alyse to the Magnar of the Thenns, to pre-empt Cregan Karstark's grab at Karhold & its Lordship, via Alyse.  Forced marriages are de facto, and are accepted as de jure in Westeros.

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

If Dragons are like Direwolves, probably sensed his rider's fear.

Rhaegal had a rider?  Are we assuming it's Jon?  If so, Rhaegal did him no favors by leaving him there to die...

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

People are forgetting Tyrion on the list of marriageable men. 

I didn't forget him, I just don't think he meets the criteria of what she'd need in a marriage. He's the younger, disinherited son of a great house, and thus brings her nothing in riches or holdings or armies, and clearly doesn't interest her on a physical level. Unless the thought is that he'd get all the Lannister stuff back after Cersei and Jaime are killed, but still: I don't think marrying the notoriously disgraced Lannister is going to get her anywhere with the people.

[screamin]

8 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Book Ramsay married the widowed Lady Hornwood in a forced marriage during the War of the Five Kings, then forced her to make him Lord Hornwood.   Then he put her in a tower and starved her to death.  Also in the book, Alyse Karstark, runs away to the wall to prevent her cousin, Cregan Karstark, from forcefully marrying her and taking Karhold, and the Lordship of the Karstarks (Cregan is from a cadet branch of House Karstark).  Jon arranges a marriage for Alyse to the Magnar of the Thenns, to pre-empt Cregan Karstark's grab at Karhold & its Lordship, via Alyse.  Forced marriages are de facto, and are accepted as de jure in Westeros.

Depends who's doing the de jure. When Bran heard about what Ramsey had done to poor Lady Hornwood, his maester told him IIRC that a forced vow (wedding vow) was not valid, and Bran ordered Ramsey's arrest - so presumably he had the legal justification for doing so.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Blonde Gator said:

Book Ramsay married the widowed Lady Hornwood in a forced marriage during the War of the Five Kings, then forced her to make him Lord Hornwood.   Then he put her in a tower and starved her to death.  Also in the book, Alyse Karstark, runs away to the wall to prevent her cousin, Cregan Karstark, from forcefully marrying her and taking Karhold, and the Lordship of the Karstarks (Cregan is from a cadet branch of House Karstark).  Jon arranges a marriage for Alyse to the Magnar of the Thenns, to pre-empt Cregan Karstark's grab at Karhold & its Lordship, via Alyse.  Forced marriages are de facto, and are accepted as de jure in Westeros.

The part that gets it annulled is if a party proves it was without their consent and forced, Sansa had no choice, Tyrion did.

Alysn Karstark agreed to it to the last known son of Eddard Stark, Hornwood died a prisoner, Ser Rodrick tried to save her or block it.

Sansa's marriage is also under false pretense, as Joffery isn't the rightful lord, but a  usurper and a bastard, just like Tommen.

If a marriage can be proven done under force or false pretense it can be annulled, just need one party to request and the other grant it.

There is also the vow being done in front of the Godswood tree, so Sansa's southern wedding can be refuted in the North or just not honored.

8 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Rhaegal had a rider?  Are we assuming it's Jon?  If so, Rhaegal did him no favors by leaving him there to die...

No, I'm just saying like Direwolves Dragons can sense other Targ's  emotions.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, screamin said:

Depends who's doing the de jure. When Bran heard about what Ramsey had done to poor Lady Hornwood, his maester told him IIRC that a forced vow (wedding vow) was not valid, and Bran ordered Ramsey's arrest - so presumably he had the legal justification for doing so.

I can just see new laws for marriage; if either Sansa or Dany become leaders.