S07.E05: Eastwatch

[RandyRanderson]

Regarding Sam and his Night's Watch vows, I assumed he was still in the NW at the Citadel and training to become their maester.  So leaving the Citadel to return to (presumably) Castle Black would be disobeying Jons order but not abandoning the NW.  Granted Jon beheaded Janos Slynt for disobeying his order but different circumstances.

My theory is the Wall falls and the NK defeated for good so there's no need for the NW and Sam can takeover Highgarden and the Tarly name.  

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Quoted because I like it so much, I'm taking it out to lunch tomorrow.  Every time they show Cersei stalking around, in her unnaturally distracting, aggressively blond hair on a map, it does feel like they are echoing a vibe in terms of set dressing.   It's actually a really smart choice in terms of directions and set choices, we see a lot of maps as they relate to power structures in our real world anyway.  It's kind of a neat visual trick to evoke emotional investment.  I think.  

May the universe bless you for this turn of phrase, particularly when married to the bedpan montage without pause and fittingly so.   Well done, I would have really, really appreciated that novice, by the way.  Anything to interrupt the tidy bowl tidal wave.  

I like that the Night's Watch's Oath has seemingly turned into an "Eh, you know, fuck it.  Who can even tell who's King of what, am I right?  Right then, I'm off.   I may pop back later for a crucial battle or two, but after that we'll all just agree that I washed out on this Brother for Life business because we're scrapping the whole idea of the Monastery Prison Because What Could Go Wrong With That? Because in retrospect, it was a lot.  A lot went wrong.  So...oath...smoath...father some sons, or daughters...preferably with someone other than your son, or daughter, it turns out it is necessary to state..."  

People just wandering in and out, chain of command dependent on main characters being present or not.   It's sort of amusingly not being made into much of a thing.  "Oh, okay.  Well, looks like people are just deciding 'yup, my watch has ended, bye!' and even though the whole series opened with someone being killed for doing what people seem to be doing on a whim...makes sense...actually."  
 

I think it more or less does, they can't have an army of unwilling conscripts and convicts, partly because all of those guys got killed already, partly because when the going got awful, willingness to actually be there proved pretty key.   It's funny how it hasn't really even gotten line-dropped that the Oath is more "Hey, if we give a holler, will you show?  You will?  Good enough, send some of our previously mortal enemies to help man the joint while you're gone, that'll be fine.  That's how bad this shit is about to get" but it makes sense to me on a story level.   

It's just caused so few qualms in anyone.  Jon really transitioned from "I'm a Brother of the Night's Watch" to "I'm a King and I care about my people" for understandable reasons ('my brothers murdered me' qualifies for me) but it's been a low key amusing note for me this season.  

Castle Black:  It's stopped being a place that feels like it has an identity and instead is like a travel plaza on I70.  Characters are there briefly, on their way to a place with its own plot this season.  

All of the institutions of Westeros are quaking and falling in this upheaval, with the notable exception of the Iron Bank and the Citadel.  The Wall and the Night Watch are in good company in that respect.  

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Robert Baratheon had her hunted down and nearly killed when she married a Dothraki warlord, and a cogzinant threat to Westeros had developed in the form of a Dothraki horde of soldiers hitting Westeros. 

Robert and Cersei didn't have a conversation about Dany's "divine right" to rule Westeros. They had a conversation about what carnage could be done should that horde ever hit Westeros. 

Therefore, Robert's reaction had nothing to do with her "claim," but her potential to cause damage, and challenge Robert's rule by violence. 

Varys: Not burn him alive, alongside his son. 

As someone who neither hate her or love her ( maybe not even like ), at least with Dickon she could had forced him to do what Tyrion suggested, put him in a cell at DS, have Lady Tarly visit her son talk sense into him. With Dickon there were things she could do, Randyl not much he's old and set in his way person.

Sam might feel a tinge of sadness for his dad, fleeting I'm sure; Dickon will or should be another matter.

Edited August 15, 2017 by GrailKing

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The Tarlys committed treason against House Tyrell according to their vow as bannermen. At least as far as I understand it. 

 

Obviously agree! I didn't even take it to task as well as you did: a cheap cliffhanger ending that didn't even pay off in any way that would have been surprising. We knew Jaime wasn't going to die offscreen, so why not twist the plot around a little more. With Jaime in custody, Dany;s leverage for a face to face with Cersei is maximized, and Cersei would have to offer terms for cessation of hostilities. 

That's assuming Cersei would choose to negotiate.  I'm not sure even Jamie would take that bet.

[Tikichick]

47 minutes ago, Francie said:

First, as to Tarly and his son, they had surrendered. They were in her custody. And she summarily executed them for not recognizing her as their queen.  

Second, taking this back to a grander scheme, why is she invading and creating enemies in the first place? She is the one putting herself in the position of creating only two options. It's like Hitler invading Poland and saying he can't offer more choices that surrender or die. 

The cournterargument, I am aware, is that this is Dany's "birthright," so of course she has a right to invade. I challenged that notion on two fronts. I'll refer to my prior posts in this thread as what it means to have a "birthright" (short answer -- it means nothing).  Second, this is your country. And let's say, for argument's sake, you know you're the rightful ruler. What's the best way to go about regaining control? Attacking with foreign armies? Or some other strategy like gaining the acceptance through diplomacy. 

If she had spent her resources on gaining popularity in the country beforehand, and come in as a caretaker and not a conqueror, she would have been better well-received and likely more successful. 

She did state that for her the options would only be kneel or die because she "wasn't putting anyone in chains ever again".  Right there she reveals her blindspot. 

It's not as if putting those who wouldn't kneel in chains equates to enslaving them.  But she's so averse to the possibility someone might level that charge against her she elected to burn them.  It also went a long way to convincing the rest who were refusing to kneel that it might be their best option.  It will be interesting to see how she views them going forward.  Can she trust them?  They have knelt.  Surely she understands it's not the same as the Unsullied, Dothraki and others who have pledged their fealty. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:32 PM, Greta said:

  I'm sure someone can find an example of some tiny country with a different succession rule, but we've seen nothing to indicate Westeros doesn't have the typical system. 

Saudi Arabia. Brother to brother to brother then it's everyone for themselves. The Current King's youngest son is making a play for the throne as he's just overthrown two Crown princes inside of two years.

[Tikichick]

19 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Joffrey called Jaime "a 40-year-old knight" waaay back at the beginning of season 4.  At the start of this season, Cersei snarked to Jaime about how she had been the one who listened to their father talk about ruling for 40 years while he and Tyrion didn't.  It's not an exact number, of course, but speaking from experience it's not something you say about people who aren't already there or past it.  

The twins are, I believe, in their mid 30s when the books start but like nearly every other role on the show, they casted older.

Ouch, I think the point was made by Joffrey already.  The Lannister twins see no point in your reckless deployment of so many A's to emphasize how much time has passed since Joffrey's jibe.

[mac123x]

I know the reason is "CGI budget", but I really would have liked to see Ghost accompany the Seven Snowmari on the trip north of the wall.  He might have come in useful helping them find an isolated wight to kidnap instead of blundering into the main army of the dead.  Then again, given what happened to Summer and that most of them are probably going to die anyway, best that he's chilling offscreen at Winterfell.

 

38 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

In the books they specifically describe Catelyn as being borderline abusive to Jon growing up. Jon had the affection of Ned, Arya, Robb, etc. but I don't see Ned watching the shunning and anger and abuse from Catelyn and still holding that secret. I know this is to advance the storyline but Ned was kindhearted to a fault. Could he have watched little Jon being treated so poorly by Catelyn and said nothing?

Others above have pointed out some of Ned's motives for not telling Catelyn the truth:  He didn't really know her when he brought Jon home, he wouldn't want to burden her with this treasonous knowledge, etc.

 

Catelyn later confirmed for us readers that Ned was right to distrust her.  When she confronted Jaime about pushing Bran out the window, she had a moment of understanding (even empathy) and thought to herself (paraphrasing) "I'd do anything to protect my children too".  If the situation had ever arisen, she'd probably sell out Jon's secret in order to protect any of her kids.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

I know the reason is "CGI budget", but I really would have liked to see Ghost accompany the Seven Snowmari on the trip north of the wall.  He might have come in useful helping them find an isolated wight to kidnap instead of blundering into the main army of the dead.  Then again, given what happened to Summer and that most of them are probably going to die anyway, best that he's chilling offscreen at Winterfell.

 

Others above have pointed out some of Ned's motives for not telling Catelyn the truth:  He didn't really know her when he brought Jon home, he wouldn't want to burden her with this treasonous knowledge, etc.

 

Catelyn later confirmed for us readers that Ned was right to distrust her.  When she confronted Jaime about pushing Bran out the window, she had a moment of understanding (even empathy) and thought to herself (paraphrasing) "I'd do anything to protect my children too".  If the situation had ever arisen, she'd probably sell out Jon's secret in order to protect any of her kids.

I share your thoughts of Ghost.  I also wondered what a Ghost/dragon meeting might have looked like.

[Hana Chan]

7 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

What the people of Westeros needed is PEACE enough to gather their grains and stores for the coming winter. Instead Dany delivered them a new front to a years long war and destructive new weapons that burned 1000+ tons of food to ash in a single afternoon.

Daenerys the Despot, Destroyer of Grain, Burner of Prisoners, Queen of the Dothraki Hordes and Mother of Monsters. Those are the titles the people of Westeros will use for her; not the pretentious ones she's given to herself.

The victors get to write their own history. Robert got to name himself king because he lead the rebellion that overthrew the Targaryen rulers. Cerci gets to call herself queen (at the moment) because she was able to outsmart or kill all of her rivals. If Dany wins and is able to plant her tush on the Iron Throne, then she can give herself whatever titles she chooses. A lot of them are self-appointed honorifics based on stuff that she did, happened to her or tried to do. And her actual record of accomplishments is, to be generous, mixed. 

I've rewatched the scene with Dany and the Tarleys several times and there were a few things that really stood out to me. Dany may not see herself as a tyrant, and with her soft voice and beautiful, young features, she may not look like a tyrant, but she is acting like one. In one breath, she's telling the captured Lannister and Tarley soldiers that she is not there to murder them and harm their families, but in the next tells them that they can either accept her as their queen or die. She calls herself the "Breaker of Chains", but is basically forcing these men into her service on threat of death. She tells them that she intends to "break the wheel", but all she's doing is setting it back to the point where it stood before Robert's Rebellion (House Targaryen permanently on top). She may think that she's more benevolent than Cersi, but she not only executed the Tarley's but did so in a horrific manner in order to frighten the prisoners into obedience. These men might not be wearing chains, but they're hardly serving her out of free will. I'm not arguing that she shouldn't have killed her enemies or that she shouldn't use whatever means she has in order to win as quickly as possible, but she can't present herself as a kinder, gentler type of ruler that's going to be better for Westeros if she's going around snapping "Dracarys" whenever she wants to make her point.

Another thing that stood out on rewatch - since Jon arrived on Dragonstone, his rank has been either diminished, mocked or ignored by Dany and those serving her. Part of that is Dany trying to push the point that she's supposed to be Queen of Westeros, but a large part of it is also IMO due to Jon's general ambivalence about being KITN. It wasn't something he sought and he seemed more than a little uncomfortable with at times. No one except Davos actually addresses him by his proper title (though Gendry had no issues when he arrived). But when he announced that he was leaving Dragon Stone to return north and bring back the proof that would be needed to convince the South (Cerci, the Maesters, etc) about the WWs, Dany tried to remind Jon that he was her "guest" and couldn't just leave. Instead of hmming and hawing the way he did before, he just pointed out that he was a king and he had the right to leave. That was one of those moments in this episode that was pretty significant in his character's growth even if it wasn't a "big" point that the ep was trying to make.

[cambridgeguy]

13 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Exactly.  Dany can't behead someone.  Dany is a dragon.  Drogon is an extension of her.  And as it was Dany who decided the punishment - it is she who must do the killing.

She gave the order but telling your dragon to roast your prisoner isn't the same as cutting off their head yourself.  It would have been like Robb telling Grey Wind (who was just as much of an extension of Robb as Drogon is to Dany) to maul Lord Karstark since he was the young wolf, so obviously death via wolf is the way to go.  Now, it looked like their deaths were pretty quick but it sends a message to the rest of the westeros that Dany is just like her insane father, regardless of how true that is. 

[screamin]

7 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Doesn't mean it's from Rhaegar though.  It seemed suspicious that she has a child that close to the time that Jon is born.  It would mean Elia was pregnant soon after or at the time that Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna.

Aegon is said to have been born in 282 AC.  The tourney at harrenhal was in 281 AC.  The battle of the trident was in 283 AC(which should also be the year that Jon was born).  So we either assume that Rhaegar was still having sex with Elia while he was planning to run off with Lyanna, or that she had the baby with someone else.  If he was with Elia after he falls for Lyanna then he's really no different than Robert, who Lyanna disliked because she knew he would not be faithful.

It's possible that Rhaegar is a jerk and Lyanna was dumb to stay run away with him after he had proven to still be with Elia, but that sort of defeats the narrative.  There appears to be more to the story, that we may or may not ever know.

Actually, we know for a fact that Rhaegar was still having sex with Elia at the same time he was probably falling in love with Lyanna. IIRC, the books specifically say that Rhaegar noted that a red comet was seen over KL the night Aegon was conceived, and that this meant he was the PTwP. Couple that with the sight of him and Elia we get, when Elia is holding the newborn son she nearly died to give birth to, and Rhaegar says IN FRONT OF HER that the dragon has 3 heads and that 'there must be one more', even though he knows she isn't physically capable of another birth, and I am wholly comfortable with saying that Rhaegar is canonically a giant douche.

Edited August 15, 2017 by screamin

[Hana Chan]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Now, it looked like their deaths were pretty quick but it sends a message to the rest of the westeros that Dany is just like her insane father, regardless of how true that is. 

This, I think, is a really important point to make. It's not as if Aerys was so long ago. There are still plenty of living people who witnessed directly how Aerys treated those who displeased him, or who had direct family who were victims of Aerys's cruelty. Using fire to kill his enemies was something the Mad King was known for and whether she intended for it to be taken as such, by using dragon fire, Dany is putting herself in the same mold as her father. It's one of the factors that is going to make it very difficult for her to be accepted in Westeros.

There are going to be plenty of people like Lord Tarly, who may have no affection for the Lannisters but see them as being a better option than someone leading foreign armies on Westeros soil. Dany probably could burn all of them, but that won't leave her much of a kingdom to rule. 

[screamin]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

She gave the order but telling your dragon to roast your prisoner isn't the same as cutting off their head yourself.  It would have been like Robb telling Grey Wind (who was just as much of an extension of Robb as Drogon is to Dany) to maul Lord Karstark since he was the young wolf, so obviously death via wolf is the way to go.  Now, it looked like their deaths were pretty quick but it sends a message to the rest of the westeros that Dany is just like her insane father, regardless of how true that is. 

Westeros was okay with King Bob for years even though it's known that he was totally cool with his bannermen dashing a baby's brains out and putting it under his throne to secure his reign from troublesome pretenders. In comparison, Danaerys putting grown men who'd fought against her to death for refusing fealty is small potatoes.

[Francie]

Quote

 Exactly.  Dany can't behead someone.  Dany is a dragon.  Drogon is an extension of her.  And as it was Dany who decided the punishment - it is she who must do the killing.

First, Ned was such a dolt. He's the idiot who started this all.  If he had contacted Mormont and had the boy's claim investigated, once it was confirmed, he could have had the ear of his bff, Robert, and dealt with the WW in a uniform, consolidated matter years ago. Imagine the brain and brawn power that could have been dedicated to that effort.  Stannis and Tywin.   Davos, Varys, and Tyrion.  The Hound and Beric and the rest of what would become the brotherhood. Instead it was all "off with his head" and "gee, he must have been imagining things, even though he risked this very execution by running."

Second, that is a nonsensical argument about Dany. Dany didn't nail the 163 masters to crosses herself, I bet. And when she had a man's head chopped off, she certainly didn't do it herself. She uses the dragons because they are a wonderful method of intimidation. It's terrorism.

Quote

 Now, it looked like their deaths were pretty quick but it sends a message to the rest of the westeros that Dany is just like her insane father, regardless of how true that is.  

Those 10 seconds of burning alive in one's armor, skin melting away, fused into metal, has got to be one of the most painful ways to go. Relatively quick or not, it's gruesome.  

Edited August 15, 2017 by Francie
Just remembering that Dany did have a swordsman who chopped off a head for her.

[Francie]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

Westeros was okay with King Bob for years even though it's known that he was totally cool with his bannermen dashing a baby's brains out and putting it under his throne to secure his reign from troublesome pretenders. In comparison, Danaerys putting grown men who'd fought against her to death for refusing fealty is small potatoes.

If we're talking about how the Westerosi view this, they can identify with the men who are being put to death for refusing fealty to someone they've never met who has come in with a foreign army and three WMDs. The average Westerosi can sympathize with the gruesome deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys (Is that her name?), but they don't translate that fear to their own situation because they weren't, at one point, in line for the throne. 

To the viewer judging them, Robert was a drunken beast who damaged Westeros in a slow, rotting kind of way, like cirrhosis of the liver.  Can't say I was ever cool with him.  It was Tywin's bannermen who actually committed the crimes, and both those men should have been punished for their war crimes. 

[benteen]

Thought this episode was great.  Not last week great but still...

I was actually rooting for the Tarlys to simply be beheaded instead of lit on fire.  Dany was trying to make a point there and it worked.  You get a lot of mileage out of fear but you get more mileage if people actually love you too (Ser Jorah!).

I hope Sam ends up as Lord of Horn Hill.  Interesting that he used his father's words before he left.  Still, Sam is the greatest thief in Westeros.  He steals his father's great sword and his psycho father inexplicably does nothing.  He steals from the Citadel and they will likely do nothing as well.  Women are barred from the Citadel but Gilly gets to live there.  Sam really is living a Mary Sue fantasy existence where nothing bad ever happens to him though I like the character a lot.

I have enjoyed Gilly becoming more and more educated and think the storyline makes sense considering how long she's been around Sam.  Love how they casually, off-handily dropped the Rhaegar information.  Rhaegar was a true piece of shit.

Cersei is pregnant and Jamie is more in love with her than ever...ugh.

On the Arya front, she always had a negative opinion of her sister so I buy her not thinking the letter completely through.  Sansa was right though that you can't keep cutting off heads of people you don't like but damn, those Northern lords are fickle assholes.  The North Remembers in the books but the North are disloyal pieces of shit on the show.  I think if the North is to have any future on the show, it's to come from the next generation of Northerners like Lady Mormont, Lord Umber and Lady Karstark.

Gendry!  Awesome return and I hope he survives this as he might be the only one who could thaw Arya's icy heart.  Plus, I hope he ends up as Lord of Storm's End.

Absolutely loved The Seven Samurai type meet-up with all the characters at the end and credit the show for pulling in book connections like Jorah and Thoros (that last shot of Thoros drinking was pretty great).  Very exciting episode and ending.

[screamin]

4 minutes ago, Francie said:

If we're talking about how the Westerosi view this, they can identify with the men who are being put to death for refusing fealty to someone they've never met who has come in with a foreign army and three WMDs. The average Westerosi can sympathize with the gruesome deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys (Is that her name?), but they don't translate that fear to their own situation because they weren't, at one point, in line for the throne. 

To the viewer judging them, Robert was a drunken beast who damaged Westeros in a slow, rotting kind of way, like cirrhosis of the liver.  Can't say I was ever cool with him.  It was Tywin's bannermen who actually committed the crimes, and both those men should have been punished for their war crimes. 

I'm not talking about your view (or my view for that matter; I think Robert was a disgusting king and Ned misplaced his loyalty in him badly). I'm talking about the Westerosi point of view. And the Westerosi were cool with Robert's total indifference to the brutal unpunished murder of babies to secure his realm. They were cool with it for years. So to say the Westerosi will reject Dany because of the brutality of the manner she put fighting men to death who refused fealty and thus chose their fate is not at all a given.

Edited August 15, 2017 by screamin

[YaddaYadda]

This whole debate on what Dany did and whether what she did was right or wrong goes back to one single thing imo, and that's Varys's line about power. 

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

Field of Fire 2.0 was a display of power. Would Randyll Tarly been okay supporting Dany if she had come to Westeros without the Unsullied, without the Dothraki and just 3 dragons?

Edited August 15, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Shimmergloom]

53 minutes ago, Francie said:

First, Ned was such a dolt. He's the idiot who started this all.  If he had contacted Mormont and had the boy's claim investigated, once it was confirmed, he could have had the ear of his bff, Robert, and dealt with the WW in a uniform, consolidated matter years ago. Imagine the brain and brawn power that could have been dedicated to that effort.  Stannis and Tywin.   Davos, Varys, and Tyrion.  The Hound and Beric and the rest of what would become the brotherhood. Instead it was all "off with his head" and "gee, he must have been imagining things, even though he risked this very execution by running."

Did Lord Mormont or the NW even believe in WW at that point?   I think the NW just thought that it was wildlings and nothing else, just like Ned.  It wasn't until much later that people thought white walkers and that was after Jon was in the NW and Ned was in KL.  And like even with all the evidence now, no one believes it in most places, except those who have seen it.

 

2 hours ago, Francie said:

If she had spent her resources on gaining popularity in the country beforehand, and come in as a caretaker and not a conqueror, she would have been better well-received and likely more successful. 

 

Seems like she did.  She had Dorne and the Reach on her side and part of the Greyjoys.  Meanwhile she knew the North was still in open rebellion against Cersei and the Stormlands and Riverlands were still in shambles from the war and weren't really friendly with Cersei either(other than the Freys).  At best Cersei had the Crownlands, Casterly Rock and the Vale(since everyone is ignoring them in the rest of Westeros).   And it was after Dany left Mereen that Euron allied with Cersei.  If anything Dany was more popular than Cersei when she left for Westeros.

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

In the books they specifically describe Catelyn as being borderline abusive to Jon growing up. Jon had the affection of Ned, Arya, Robb, etc. but I don't see Ned watching the shunning and anger and abuse from Catelyn and still holding that secret. I know this is to advance the storyline but Ned was kindhearted to a fault. Could he have watched little Jon being treated so poorly by Catelyn and said nothing?

I think that is part of what sold it for Ned though.  The fact that Catelyn acted toward Jon the way she did, was telling Robert and anyone who would question it, that Jon was his legit bastard son.  I think from Ned's POV it was better for Jon to have Catelyn be verbally abusive to him, then be dead at Robert's hand. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[Misplaced]

16 hours ago, magdalene said:

However, Dickon was kind of naive and basically decent and his brutal death made me think of the fate  Shireen suffered at the hands of Stannis.  But Karma got Stannis and I am hoping Dany won't be rewarded for the ruthless things she has done to fulfill her ambitions and force everybody and their dog to bend the knee to her. I know this is a minority position but it's how I feel.

Not *that* minority ... I've been bored with Dany since season 3.  Although every time I just want to write her off, she flames something with Dragon Breath and then I think hmm, would be kinda cool if she really went Mad Queen on us.  And then I get bored again.

Just personal preference, mind you, but she is not my favourite.  I do like the various characters that bounce off her.  They give her a depth that I find missing in just plain old Her.  

[Uncle JUICE]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

That's assuming Cersei would choose to negotiate.  I'm not sure even Jamie would take that bet.

Agreed, but even that would be a source of tension, one better than maybe a fake baby, in my book. 

[Tikichick]

46 minutes ago, Francie said:

First, Ned was such a dolt. He's the idiot who started this all.  If he had contacted Mormont and had the boy's claim investigated, once it was confirmed, he could have had the ear of his bff, Robert, and dealt with the WW in a uniform, consolidated matter years ago. Imagine the brain and brawn power that could have been dedicated to that effort.  Stannis and Tywin.   Davos, Varys, and Tyrion.  The Hound and Beric and the rest of what would become the brotherhood. Instead it was all "off with his head" and "gee, he must have been imagining things, even though he risked this very execution by running."

Second, that is a nonsensical argument about Dany. Dany didn't nail the 163 masters to crosses herself, I bet. And when she had a man's head chopped off, she certainly didn't do it herself. She uses the dragons because they are a wonderful method of intimidation. It's terrorism.

Those 10 seconds of burning alive in one's armor, skin melting away, fused into metal, has got to be one of the most painful ways to go. Relatively quick or not, it's gruesome.  

Even if the word had come through his best pal, I'm not so sure drunken, useless King Robert would have put much effort forth -- let alone a concerted one to deal with the problem.  He was primarily concerned with a couple of teenage exiles in Essos and the threat they presented to his reign.

[FnkyChkn34]

56 minutes ago, Francie said:

First, Ned was such a dolt. He's the idiot who started this all.  If he had contacted Mormont and had the boy's claim investigated, once it was confirmed, he could have had the ear of his bff, Robert, and dealt with the WW in a uniform, consolidated matter years ago. ...

I'm pretty sure that's one of the great debates, isn't it?  Who started "it all"?  IMO, the better argument is that Jaime started "it all" by pushing Bran out of the window, and then whoever tried to finish him with the dagger.  Ned beheading the Night's Watch deserter really had nothing to do with the rest of the story until now.  Even if Ned had done as you suggested, as long as Jaime still pushed Bran, and someone still attacked Bran with the dagger, none of Ned's efforts would have been worth anything; everyone would have been too busy fighting themselves and no one would have united against the WW anyway.

[Misplaced]

11 hours ago, LanceM said:

Am I the only one who found it slightly amusing that Dany correctly used the word fewer in a sentence when she told Jon she had "fewer" enemies today than yesterday.  She must be getting lessons from Davos

You are not!  :-) 

[benteen]

On the subject of Gilly again, like I said, I've enjoyed the character becoming more educated and stronger.  She's been a show success, better than her book counterpart.  Her improving herself makes a hell of a lot more sense than Talisa, Robb's contrived, 21st century wife who talks to Lords in a way that likely would have gotten her tongue cut out.

[Tikichick]

20 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm pretty sure that's one of the great debates, isn't it?  Who started "it all"?  IMO, the better argument is that Jaime started "it all" by pushing Bran out of the window, and then whoever tried to finish him with the dagger.  Ned beheading the Night's Watch deserter really had nothing to do with the rest of the story until now.  Even if Ned had done as you suggested, as long as Jaime still pushed Bran, and someone still attacked Bran with the dagger, none of Ned's efforts would have been worth anything; everyone would have been too busy fighting themselves and no one would have united against the WW anyway.

Interestingly LF weighed in with his thoughts last week.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Interestingly LF weighed in with his thoughts last week.

Well... there's still a great argument to be made that LF started it all too, and I don't think he's innocent by any stretch of the imagination.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Well... there's still a great argument to be made that LF started it all too, and I don't think he's innocent by any stretch of the imagination.

He certainly seems to pop up at precipitous times, with very telling words.  It's definitely quite curious to say the least.

[MrsR]

Little Finger started it all when he convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn.  I blame him the most. Or maybe I should thank him because I LOVE THIS SHOW!

 

As for the Bran incident, Ned would have stayed at home in Winterfell and dealt with Bran.

 

Jon Arryn would have told Robert about the children being bastards and that would have been the end of the Lannisters. Then Ned might still have become the Hand but not with the same results.

 

Definitely LF.

[The Kings Foot]

18 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

Also re: Cersei's hair I think it's her choice to keep it short. Now that her only romance is her brother, her kids are gone, and she's queen of King's Landing, there's no need to keep up the feminine charm anymore. Cersei has always been a ballbuster. I've noticed her outfits are less fancy and medieval as well but are instead simple dark dresses. 

The other possibility is she's wearing her hair short to commemorate her three dead children?

Rewatch Tywin's outfits , Cersei is modeling her clothes after him.  I'm guessing the haircut is also a Tywin homage.

 

 

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/File:Tywin_lannister_S3_promo.jpg

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by The Kings Foot

[RandyRanderson]

So what does Bran do all day? Why isn't he talking to Sansa and Arya more?  Why aren't they more interesting in what he knows?  He seems to know about LF's "chaos is a ladder" conversation and presumably knows the origins of that dagger.  If he knows more about LF, why not tell Arya and Sansa?

 

He warged north of the Wall to see the NK marching east and had the maester send ravens, great.  His warging abilities would probably be very helpful to the current team heading north.  And why not tell Jon about the CotF creating the WW, Jon's parents, etc.  I realize he probably doesn't want to say some of that in a raven since Jon isn't there, but yeesh, he's holding out on some pretty important information.

[The Kings Foot]

10 hours ago, sumiregusa said:

Saw this being discussed a lot so I figured I'd add my two cents:

If Dany is being self-entitled and "mad queen" by going to all lengths for the Iron Throne when she has no apparent right to it, why did Robert Baratheon spy on her and try to have her hunted down and killed? 

The fact is that she was seen as a threat because she is one. Her claim is legitimate and stronger than even his was. You don't have to like Dany or any of the Targaryens for that matter to know how succession is supposed to work.

Theyre are still those that call me Usurper.

[VCRTracking]

When Gendry told Jon their fathers were friends and fought together I went "Aww.." for a second then realized:

[The Kings Foot]

To me one of the fun things is trying to figure out from the TV show's mess, exactly what's going to happen in the books. 

The Tarlys backing Cersei against Dany never made sense given that they were Targ loyalists.  I think what must have happened was Tarly jumped on Aegon's bandwagon together with Dorne (Arriane) only for them to get blasted by Dany's dragons after they topple Highgarden.  if the Golden Company shows up we might be able to infer that book Cersei is not in KL.  But that Aegon holds KL.  Which makes the attempts at parlay make more sense.

Also Gendry's " I am a Baratheon" is a little odd. But its  quite in character for Edric.

[YaddaYadda]

14 minutes ago, RandyRanderson said:

So what does Bran do all day? Why isn't he talking to Sansa and Arya more?  Why aren't they more interesting in what he knows?  He seems to know about LF's "chaos is a ladder" conversation and presumably knows the origins of that dagger.  If he knows more about LF, why not tell Arya and Sansa?

Interestingly enough, the show seems to be using the raven's caw as a sound effect in some of the scenes that seem three-eyed raven related. Like when Arya finds the scroll, you hear the crow in the background. Maybe he did tell them more in the godswood after he gave Arya the dagger. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but the scene of the woman whom LF pays off happens after Arya and Sansa have their argument over Jon, you know with the door wide open. Maybe stealth ninja Arya wants LF to know she's following him around. That's a new face opportunity for Arya if anything. 

Also maester Luwin's was a messy man and his tower was burnt during the sack of Winterfell. So I cannot express how much this whole thing with the miraculous message bothers me.

24 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Definitely LF.

100% him. Bran would have been pushed out the window regardless of his actions, but there was a good chance Ned would've stayed in Winterfell. He didn't even wanna leave in the first place (in the books). What prompted Ned to go was the murder of Jon Arryn and Catelyn insisting that if he refused the Handship, it would place their family in danger (in the books).

Edited August 15, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[The Kings Foot]

9 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Doesn't mean it's from Rhaegar though.  It seemed suspicious that she has a child that close to the time that Jon is born.  It would mean Elia was pregnant soon after or at the time that Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna.

Aegon is said to have been born in 282 AC.  The tourney at harrenhal was in 281 AC.  The battle of the trident was in 283 AC(which should also be the year that Jon was born).  So we either assume that Rhaegar was still having sex with Elia while he was planning to run off with Lyanna, or that she had the baby with someone else.  If he was with Elia after he falls for Lyanna then he's really no different than Robert, who Lyanna disliked because she knew he would not be faithful.

It's possible that Rhaegar is a jerk and Lyanna was dumb to stay run away with him after he had proven to still be with Elia, but that sort of defeats the narrative.  There appears to be more to the story, that we may or may not ever know.

So Rhaegar's a two timing jerk.  What else is new.

 

Defeats what narrative ? True Love ?  If youre hoping for a happy ending  then you havent been paying attention. 

[RandyRanderson]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Interestingly enough, the show seems to be using the raven's caw as a sound effect in some of the scenes that seem three-eyed raven related. Like when Arya finds the scroll, you hear the crow in the background. Maybe he did tell them more in the godswood after he gave Arya the dagger. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but the scene of the woman whom LF pays off happens after Arya and Sansa have their argument over Jon, you know with the door wide open. Maybe stealth ninja Arya wants LF to know she's following him around. That's a new face opportunity for Arya if anything. 

I didn't catch that, that's pretty interesting.  I guess Bran could be warging into ravens all around the castle as well.  I'm hoping we get this story line resolved in the next two episodes.  

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

the Seven Snowmari

Very good!

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

To me one of the fun things is trying to figure out from the TV show's mess, exactly what's going to happen in the books. 

The Tarlys backing Cersei against Dany never made sense given that they were Targ loyalists.  I think what must have happened was Tarly jumped on Aegon's bandwagon together with Dorne (Arriane) only for them to get blasted by Dany's dragons after they topple Highgarden.  if the Golden Company shows up we might be able to infer that book Cersei is not in KL.  But that Aegon holds KL.  Which makes the attempts at parlay make more sense.

Also Gendry's " I am a Baratheon" is a little odd. But its  quite in character for Edric.

I'm pretty sure Gendry doesn't knows that his father was Robert in the books. There's that whole very uncomfortable episode with Bella at the Peach, which I guess has a chance of happening when Robert couldn't keep his breeches laced. 

I think Tarly will go over to Aegon the second he has a chance to do so. He knows Aegon has landed with the Golden Company because he is part of the small council. I can't imagine a man like him has much respect for his liege lord. The only hiccup is the ironborn.

[LoveLeigh]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

 

Then what is Daenerys supposed to do?

Jon Snow said it best. I do not have his exact quote but basically he told her she is no better than those she is going after. 

She used those dragons like nuclear weapons: weapons of mass destruction. This is fascinating and explains it well: 

from BUSINESS INSIDER

[Nanrad]

Honestly, I would find it unrealistic if Arya and Sansa put aside their issues and just got along. Sure, they'd lost their parents and siblings, but that doesn't make their issues they have with each other go away magically. This doesn't even happen with siblings you are close with who you have deep grained issues with as well. This current issue comes off as true of their relationship. They love and are fond of each other, but that doesn't negate the negative parts of their relationship. Right or wrong, Arya's issue with Sansa isn't petty: she believes that Sansa's action have led to the deaths of two people, which is her friend and their father. I don't think she believes Sansa is evil, but rather, (was) obsessed with material things and marriages and those obsessions influences her decisions. 

We want Arya to calm down and back off of Sansa because all that has happened to her, but do y'all honestly think that Sansa told Arya any of these things??? Most likely, Arya doesn't know and Arya has no reason to assume Sansa experienced great atrocities independent of their shared ones. 

As far as the council scene goes, I can see why Arya felt the way she did. Sansa did her job perfunctory and as a duty because he is family rather than her actually supporting Jon. We give Jon a lot of shit about his decisions and how Sansa is making better decisions in the North and, maybe this is true, but Jon is the only one who understands the seriousness of the situation and knows how to combat it. Jon is a serious person and doesn't take anything lightly and, of anything, I'd expect Sansa to respect that even if she doesn't truly grasp the situation. Jon would never ask his men to go out and do something he wouldn't do himself. Maybe that makes him a terrible leader, BUT considering not many people take his claims about WW serious, in this case, he HAS to go out and risk his life to SAVE Westoros. 

Sansa is correct that she can't just cut off their heads, but Arya is also right in a sense that they cannot just speak about Jon like that. Do you think anyone would have gotten away speaking about Cersei, Robert, Dany, Ned, Joffrey, Tommen, Olenna, etc. like that during a council meeting? Because it wasn't simply about the reservations and grievances, but HOW they were talking about Jon and Sansa's reaction and body language to their complaints. 

Arya: He trusted you to hold it for him.

Sansa: Well, he's not making it easy. The Northern Lords are proud.

As savvy as we claim Sansa is and that she knows how to play the game, calming down Northern Lords shouldn't be an issue for her. This shouldn't be an obstacle, yet it is and for reasons Arya stated: she wants to rule the North, but is trying to push the thought out of her head. I didn't see Sansa as thinking Arya was saying foolish things; Sansa knew that Area pegged her dilemma correctly and how no response for it. Because if she was 100% not interested in ruling the North, either she'd be able to 'control' the bannermen better OR she honestly doesn't know how to run the North as well as she though she would've. Running the North isn't literally about hoarding food and the day to day shit, but politics as well. No their politics doesn't compare to KL or other places, but it's still there. And to hold down a position for someone means to run the day to day and back/defend them, regardless if you disagree behind closed doors, if need be. Sansa has graduated from openly question Jon to just remaining silent when she needs to show a more united front with him other than saying he thought it was the best decision. 

Which is why I believe LF still has some sway with her: he either planted the seed or further cultivated Sansa's belief that she should be the one running the North. Sansa is aware that LF is trying to manipulate her, but that doesn't make her immune from all of his manipulations. She is playing her own game as well, but even if Arya was wrong about some things, she was right as well. 

To bring it back to my original point, the other reason why Arya and Sansa aren't going to immediately become a united front and put their past issues behind them is because Sansa has HUGE trust issues because of her experiences. At this point, she trusts Jon more than she trusts Arya and she didn't even trust Jon during their reunion again or, at least, all that much. But, she and Jon built their relationship so she's built some trust, where as Arya is basically a stranger to her despite Arya still possessing some of her old mannerisms.

I'm also not seeing how Arya is behaving or being crazy, which she had been called earlier in the thread. I think LF was paranoid after that first scene, and then laid the trap for her. But, she's observing her and investigating. We honestly don't know what she's going to do with that info or how she's going to react. Also, with the chamber scene, it wasn't just Arya holding onto old shit, it was Sansa too--recall how the scene started and that Sansa told her to spit out her issue. 

As far as Gendry goes, the rowing line was fan service, but his reintroduction isn't, IMO. Just like other characters and storylines, Gendry was combined with Edric. I could see Gendry maturing in his stance in the sense that, when we meet him, he's a teen and broody and angry. But, he was also a bastard with a dead mother who didn't know who his father was. I didn't think he necessarily cares that Robert is his father, but it gives him a sense of identity rather than a bastard without a father with no clue as to who his dad was. It gives him a sense of importance. I could see him wanting to fight back since he had a mark on his head and had to hide in plain sight. But, I don't think his return is fan service or to give Arya a love interest. GRRM DID tell them how the story ends and even we don't know this ourselves, so how can anyone honestly argue that's the reason for his return? Sure, they have detoured and combined, but there's no way of knowing unless GRRM finishes the series. 

I think the argument that Gendry was reintroduced back into the narrative to restore the Baratheon line and that it could end with he and Sansa having an arranged marriage is a compelling one. But, I also think it'd keep the underlining friction between the Stark sisters alive. Even if Arya doesn't (still) like Gendry, she met him first and I think she'd see him as hers and that Sansa took him away from her, irrational or not. I honestly don't think she'd welcome that union with open arms or ever truly embrace it. Now, canonically, we do have evidence that Arya DID find Gendry physically attractive. That doesn't make her feelings automatically a crush, but it wouldn't be far fetched for me to believe she still has some deep feelings for him. If anyone on here has read the fanfic 'No Featherbed For Me," I'd imagine a restrained play out of the emotions happening between the three. Because if Gendry ever gets legitimized, I don't think Arya would want to be with him because that life isn't her, ironically, if she did, Gendry would be her most suitable suitor. But, she would want to be with him if he was still a forger. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Nanrad

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I don't think Dany is becoming a monster. She is taking back what she perceives to be her birthright by force, same as every other person who has held the IT. Dany conquered the Lannister army on the field of battle and needed them to stop hostilities.  What do you think she should have done?  This is Westeros, and if you lose, you submit to the conqueror or suffer the consequences. The conqueror settles into governing once s/he has stifled opposition. We have no idea what type of leader Dany will prove to be at this point. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say she will be better than Cersei.  As for what her looks have to do with it, I was merely searching for a reason for the intense negativity towards the character.  I think labels like "lunatic" or "monster" are unjustified, especially when compared with others playing the game.

Cersei is the monster and lunatic.

I think the intense negativity has to be viewed in a present day political situation. If a maniac from another country has his finger on a weapon of mass destruction, do we respond in a similar way and annihilate and stifle opposition? Or do we try to find alternate solutions? Dany used those dragons like nuclear weapons.

This can even be viewed in an historical perspective with regard to how self perceived "conquerers" chose to fight wars based on their own views and need for power.

Well, please read my link above. I will insert it here again if you are unable to locate it: from BUSINESS INSIDER

ETA:

Jon Snow: "If you use them (dragons) to melt castles and burn cities, you are not different you are just more of the same."

on YouTube

Edited August 15, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[Scaeva]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Little Finger started it all when he convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn.  I blame him the most. Or maybe I should thank him because I LOVE THIS SHOW!

 

As for the Bran incident, Ned would have stayed at home in Winterfell and dealt with Bran.

 

Jon Arryn would have told Robert about the children being bastards and that would have been the end of the Lannisters. Then Ned might still have become the Hand but not with the same results.

 

Definitely LF.

Littlefinger certainly deserves a large slice of the blame, thank so do Cersei and Jaime for Bran taking a nose drive from that tower. Without the attempted murder of Bran, no War of the Five Kings.

Both book and TV series Cersei and Jaime need to die. I kind of like book Jaime, but in the grand scheme of things he's still one of the villains of the "era" the book series is set in. He's just a villain with some redeeming qualities, like empathy and guilt.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Scaeva

[Tikichick]

13 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

Theyre are still those that call me Usurper.

Said in a mournful, drunken slur. 

It's not unheard of for people to fixate on their regrets and mistakes, desperately seeking out any and all means of avoiding their own thoughts, even using anger to avoid truths they want to remain unknown.

[Tikichick]

58 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Interestingly enough, the show seems to be using the raven's caw as a sound effect in some of the scenes that seem three-eyed raven related. Like when Arya finds the scroll, you hear the crow in the background. Maybe he did tell them more in the godswood after he gave Arya the dagger. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but the scene of the woman whom LF pays off happens after Arya and Sansa have their argument over Jon, you know with the door wide open. Maybe stealth ninja Arya wants LF to know she's following him around. That's a new face opportunity for Arya if anything. 

Also maester Luwin's was a messy man and his tower was burnt during the sack of Winterfell. So I cannot express how much this whole thing with the miraculous message bothers me.

100% him. Bran would have been pushed out the window regardless of his actions, but there was a good chance Ned would've stayed in Winterfell. He didn't even wanna leave in the first place (in the books). What prompted Ned to go was the murder of Jon Arryn and Catelyn insisting that if he refused the Handship, it would place their family in danger (in the books).

It also seems as if we hear the ravens quite often in the background  (as answer/contradiction?) when LF speaks.

[Hana Chan]

55 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Arya: He trusted you to hold it for him.

Sansa: Well, he's not making it easy. The Northern Lords are proud.

Right now the Northern Lords are being a bunch of whiny little babies. Jon left to go on an important diplomatic mission that might very well mean their survival in the coming months. He's not down in Dragon Stone working on his tan. If Jon were on a military campaign for months at a stretch, would they be bitching that he wasn't at home to change their nappies?

[mac123x]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I also wondered what a Ghost/dragon meeting might have looked like.

Like Donkey and Dragon in the Shrek movies.  A few months later we'd have firebreathing direwolves with wings hybrids.  I wish I was a skilled enough artist to draw that, because that would be awesome!

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

Like Donkey and Dragon in the Shrek movies.  A few months later we'd have firebreathing direwolves with wings hybrids.  I wish I was a skilled enough artist to draw that, because that would be awesome!

Guess I've never seen more than the first Shrek.

I was wondering more along the lines of -- could or would they sing together?

[KarenTargaryen]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Interestingly enough, the show seems to be using the raven's caw as a sound effect in some of the scenes that seem three-eyed raven related. Like when Arya finds the scroll, you hear the crow in the background. Maybe he did tell them more in the godswood after he gave Arya the dagger. Could be wishful thinking on my part, but the scene of the woman whom LF pays off happens after Arya and Sansa have their argument over Jon, you know with the door wide open. Maybe stealth ninja Arya wants LF to know she's following him around. That's a new face opportunity for Arya if anything. 

Also maester Luwin's was a messy man and his tower was burnt during the sack of Winterfell. So I cannot express how much this whole thing with the miraculous message bothers me.

100% him. Bran would have been pushed out the window regardless of his actions, but there was a good chance Ned would've stayed in Winterfell. He didn't even wanna leave in the first place (in the books). What prompted Ned to go was the murder of Jon Arryn and Catelyn insisting that if he refused the Handship, it would place their family in danger (in the books).

Bran would not have been pushed from the window if Jon Arryn was not murdered.  The only reason King Robert and company came to Winterfell was that Jon Arryn was dead and Robert wanted Ned as his Hand.  The Cersei and Jaime had sex and pushed Bran from the window.  If Jon Arryn was still alive, none of them would have been at Winterfell and Bran would not have been pushed from a window.