S01.E08: The Defenders

[benteen]

What I disliked about the Hand in DD Season 2 was giving them Elektra's death scene.  It was Bulls-Eye who killed her and you do NOT mess with that, one of the best DD stories.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/5/2017 at 8:27 AM, benteen said:

What I disliked about the Hand in DD Season 2 was giving them Elektra's death scene.  It was Bulls-Eye who killed her and you do NOT mess with that, one of the best DD stories.

I actually didn't mind the Hand in DD. Since it was all crazy/awesome action scenes that had consequences and good leaders like Nobu and Gao. The thing I hated about DD season 2 was the whole daredevil/punisher debate about killing or not killing. It seems so pointless with what we know about brain injuries these days. With the kind of pummeling that Matt gives some of those goons, does he actually follow them home to make sure they don't have permanent brain damage or aren't crippled for life? Because sure he might not kill them, but leaving them with lifelong serious injuries isn't that great either. Defenders luckily didn't have that debate, although the action scenes were like PG-13 consequence free action where people were seriously knocked around but never really got hurt so you never thought about it. 

[Dobian]

I liked this show overall.  It was fast-paced and there were few wasted scenes.  I was willing to suspend disbelief on the NYPD looking the other way on a 911-style skyscraper demolition (C4?  What C4?).  Hate to say it but Matt needs to be with Elektra not Karen, since Elektra lets him be Daredevil lol.  I liked all of them together, though the babysitting Danny part was tedious and predictable.  I liked it better when Colleen was working with them anyway.  I've watched all the shows except Iron Fist, watching that one now.  I know it's the least favorite of all of them but I like the story so far and the supporting characters.  As far as characters go I like Jessica and Luke the best.  As far as fighting goes I always preferred Daredevil, it's just pure martial arts and I like the fight choreography on that show.  I can't get into Iron Fist's super power, it's like the Incredible Hulk where only his hand hulks out.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Dobian

[talktalk]

Quick question, is Matt getting his eyesight back? The last shot looks like a hint. 

[MisterGlass]

That wasn't my impression, but I'm not clear on how dragon goo works.  Blindness is such an integral part of his character's journey that I'm not sure how it would work if he were sighted.

[blueray]

My take on it is that it'll bring him back to life or heal him. However, it'll won't heal already existing scars. So I would imagine that he would still be blind, as it was an already existing "injury". I hope that his abilities remain the same and more importantly he keeps his memories.

[Dobian]

22 hours ago, talktalk said:

Quick question, is Matt getting his eyesight back? The last shot looks like a hint. 

Hope not.

[OnceSane]

Ditto, @Dobian.

[talktalk]

16 hours ago, Dobian said:

Hope not.

Care to elaborate?

[Dobian]

5 minutes ago, talktalk said:

Care to elaborate?

It would ruin the character.  His uniqueness is that he is a blind fighter.  His lack of eyesight heightens his other senses, enabling him to hear better than a dog and isolate sounds so he can track somebody who is literally blocks away from him.  He can sense people and things through smell.  When he fights, the fact that he can't see but can counter anything that comes at him with the skill of a ninja makes the fights that much cooler.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Dobian

[methodwriter85]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:06 PM, penguinnj said:

Was slightly disappointed there was no larger Marvel reference.  Shouldn't Danny at least know of Tony Stark or Hank Pym from Ant Man?  There can only be so many NY billionaire vigilantes.  I get that the stakes have to walk the thin line of being huge but not at the level of global extinction, but the problem is Tony seems so plugged in to tracking people with "abilities" that it's weird he does not have a mention or a presence here.   

I'm pretty sure the Netflix and CW shows have to walk a pretty fine line in terms of mentioning character names, because they are not Marvel/Disney and they only have permission for certain characters. The ABC Agents of Shield seems to get more carte blanche because ABC is owned by Disney. For example, I wiki'd Jessica Jones and she's apparently supposed to have gone to high school with Peter Parker. I doubt the Netflix version of her will ever say that, especially now that Spiderman's worth has been restored by Marvel.

I enjoyed this overall and I found it a lot easier to binge than Iron Fist, which is the first one I watched. (Currently working on Jessica Jones.) Still, I thought it was a huggggeeee mistake to kill off Alexandra. She made a hell of a lot more convincing and menacing villain than Elektra. Alexandra should have made it to the finale. I wasn't feeling the Romeo and Juliet shit with Matt and Elecktra.

I also kind of ship Jessica and Matt, so I'm annoyed by the ending with that. Oh, well.

The funny thing is, I didn't find Murdoch hot at all, but he slowly became hot to me as the season progressed. (I haven't watched Daredevil.) He's not an obvious movie hunk like Ben Affleck, but his attractiveness slowly crept up on me, and at the end, I totally appreciated the shirtless shot of him very much alive.

I actually like Danny Rand and his relationship with Colleen, so I was happy to see that carry over here.

[RustbeltWriter]

I really enjoyed Jessica Jones using her investigatory skills to figure things out instead of just punching people. 

[blackwing]

I enjoyed the series overall, even if it had its faults.  I liked the idea of all four characters working together.

Agree with others that the fight scenes were too dark and tried too hard.  That last fight where the camera swooped in amongst the various characters seemed like a poor director's idea of a mannequin challenge.  So hard to tell who was doing what.  

I agree with the sentiment that the powers are too similar.  Daredevil and Iron Fist are both hand to hand martial arts, except Iron Fist has his glowing hand that seems to only be able to be used once an hour or so, and Daredevil has his billy club whip thing ("that is so cool") that he only used once.   Luke is strong and invulnerable and just beats on people.  Jessica is strong and just beats on people and throws them around.  In her own series she talked about how she really can't fly, "it's more like a controlled falling".  Why didn't she use it here?  Budget reasons?  This team needed someone with vastly different powers.  A ranged fighter with some sort of energy projection.  

I love Sigourney Weaver but I hated her character here.  In general, I truly despise the "my shit don't stank" kinds of villains.  Hated her manner of speaking, like she was above it all.  Oh, there's Alexandra.  She's elegantly dressed.  Dining alone, like the strong and confident woman she is, tell me what you think about me, I buy my own diamonds and I buy my own rings, all the women, who are independent, throw your hands up at me.  Look how daintily she uses her fork to carefully bring the food to her mouth.  Oh, she is listening to classical music. Such a force of nature.  And because it's 2017, she is drinking a pint of beer, because powerful women are breaking the stereotype that says that women only drink wine on TV.

Her character was supposed to be the leader but didn't seem all that powerful.  I would have made Gao the leader.  Absolutely loved Madame Gao.  I love the fact that this old lady Chinese actress plays such a fearsome and powerful character.  I loved when she called them "the devil of Hell's Kitchen, the Iron Fist, the man who does not break, and the unyielding woman."  So perfectly delivered.  Why didn't Wai Ching Ho get listed in the main credits?   Her character was certainly a larger character than Bakuto.

I really hope Bakuto is dead.  His head got cut off.  No way can that dragon ooze save someone who was beheaded.  Again, I hate the "my shit don't stank" villains, and I really hate the way he talks like he's so superior.   Colleen killed him in the building, right?  So they weren't down there with the dragon ooze.  I guess the whole thing could have collapsed into the pit 30 stories down, but surely his head would have gotten even more separated from the body on the way down.

Looking forward to the next iteration of these series.  Punisher is next, right?  Not too keen on that one.

[Delphi]

Jessica did use her guided falling.   When she flew to catch the elevator.   Much in the same way that she used it in her show you see the beginning and it happens off screen, for budget purposes I assume. 

[benteen]

23 hours ago, blackwing said:

 

I agree with the sentiment that the powers are too similar.  Daredevil and Iron Fist are both hand to hand martial arts, except Iron Fist has his glowing hand that seems to only be able to be used once an hour or so, and Daredevil has his billy club whip thing ("that is so cool") that he only used once.   Luke is strong and invulnerable and just beats on people.  Jessica is strong and just beats on people and throws them around.  In her own series she talked about how she really can't fly, "it's more like a controlled falling".  Why didn't she use it here?  Budget reasons?  This team needed someone with vastly different powers.  A ranged fighter with some sort of energy projection.  

Agreed on the power.  I've felt this way in the MU movies as well.  It feels like much of the power base is either guys who are super strong or guys who has no powers but are just amazing fighters.  Get someone who shoots stuff from their hands or something! 

[AKA...CJ86]

Finally finished the series.  As with all the Netflix series, I think I enjoyed them as they've been released.

Unless I nodded off, I maybe did, eight episodes felt longer than the 13(?) of the previous series in some areas, but why was Elektra so special... just because Alexandra wasted the dragon goo on her.

I liked the four main's, but it kinda felt like show couldn't decide if this was a Daredevil or Iron Fist story, guest starring Jessica Jones and Luke Cage.

I love Weaver and Alexandra while interesting, I just didn't believe as the leader/a leader of this ancient group of warriors. I would have cut three of the fingers down to Gao and Bakuto, just because we did get to know them, and  I hate one and done characters.

The only major downside for me was the four heroes were shades of each other... power or skill wise... with Daredevil and Iron Fist, Jessica and Luke. 

Finishing with my favorite quote of the episode, "the devil of Hell's Kitchen, the Iron Fist, the man who does not break, and the unyielding woman." Damn, Gao is the MVP of the Netflix series.

[rmontro]

I know a lot of people were critical of the Iron Fist TV series, but I didn't like the way they made him look so weak in The Defenders.  It was almost like a joke:  "Iron Fist had the worst critical reception of all the Netflix series, so we're going to depict him as dumb and weak".  I've heard people who took a lot of pleasure in this.  My approach would be that if there were problems with his series, then try to fix those problems going forward, rather than turning it into a joke.  

It is annoying the way they use his "Iron Fist" power.  Sometimes he can turn it on as easily a a light bulb, other times he can't seem to make it work no matter how hard he tries.

Jessica stole the show, I thought.

[Delphi]

On 11/17/2017 at 11:40 PM, rmontro said:

I know a lot of people were critical of the Iron Fist TV series, but I didn't like the way they made him look so weak in The Defenders.  It was almost like a joke:  "Iron Fist had the worst critical reception of all the Netflix series, so we're going to depict him as dumb and weak".  I've heard people who took a lot of pleasure in this.  My approach would be that if there were problems with his series, then try to fix those problems going forward, rather than turning it into a joke.  

It is annoying the way they use his "Iron Fist" power.  Sometimes he can turn it on as easily a a light bulb, other times he can't seem to make it work no matter how hard he tries.

Jessica stole the show, I thought.

I think that it was more of the choosing to highlight how inexperienced Danny is compared to the rest of them.   As for his problem summoning the iron fist,  I don't think he had finished his training before he left the ancient city, so he's not as immediately capable as prior Iron Fists. 

[supposebly]

Well, I finally watched this to get at least some Jessica Jones. 

Wow, this was boring. And terrible. I kept waiting and waiting and hoping but it really didn't get any better from the first episode. It didn't really keep my attention, so I kept doing other stuff while listening to bad dialog.

Claire reduced to cheerleader for almost everyone, same for Coleen mostly for dumbass Iron Fist. Who can't sell this character. At all. I kept thinking that this fist would be really good for lighting at night. Especially with the terrible lighting in this show. I guess if you keep edit-chopping up the fighting, so no one can see anything, a lighting fist is helpful to at least find the guy who punches the air really hard.

Luke was as usual boring, so no surprises there, Murdoch was an angsty Gary Stu, so I don't think much has changed from season 1, and worst, they reduced Jessica to a mostly drunken cliche.

Dialog peppered with cliches, telling the audience for the umpteenth time how bad the situation is, terse "are you ready?-no" cliches, reminding us how bad the situation is and what is going on in general. A lot of fighting that went on way too long. Stick doing his usual impression of , I'm the most badass that ever badassed since the beginning of time. Oh well, I never liked him anyway. This is the kind of character that made me go watch Kill Bill 2 again. At least Carradine has charm.

Cliche final stupid fight to bring Elektra back. So, you keep beating on someone until they admit they are still in love. Blergh.

Natchios? I kept hearing Nachos. So, that was funny. At least for me.

At least Alexandra was awesome. She had a dignity that spoke of her age. Same with Gao. 

Why was Jessica so broken up over Matt? She knew him for how long? 2-3 days?

Wow, I hope whoever wrote these episodes didn't go within a mile of anything on Jessica Jones because this was an atrocity. Why was Hogarth just in one or two scenes? What was the point anyway? I miss her!

[rmontro]

On 12/3/2017 at 6:17 PM, Delphi said:

I think that it was more of the choosing to highlight how inexperienced Danny is compared to the rest of them.   As for his problem summoning the iron fist,  I don't think he had finished his training before he left the ancient city, so he's not as immediately capable as prior Iron Fists. 

Neither Jessica nor Luke have extensive training either, they just have super powers (as does Danny).  Danny may not have finished his training, but he grew up in K'un L'un being trained.  I don't see how he is any less experienced than the other two.

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Neither Jessica nor Luke have extensive training either, they just have super powers (as does Danny).  Danny may not have finished his training, but he grew up in K'un L'un being trained.  I don't see how he is any less experienced than the other two.

Luke is a trained boxer,  a marine and a former cop while Jessica is a licensed private investigator who has had her gifts since she was a teenager.   I'd consider both more trained and experienced than a Buddhist monk. 

[johntfs]

On 9/12/2017 at 3:31 AM, methodwriter85 said:

I doubt the Netflix version of her will ever say that, especially now that Spiderman's worth has been restored by Marvel.

And especially since Spider-man has been established to be Peter Parker as a 15 year old boy while Jessica is a 30-something semi-alcoholic who is way past high school boys.

 

8 hours ago, Delphi said:

Luke is a trained boxer,  a marine and a former cop while Jessica is a licensed private investigator who has had her gifts since she was a teenager.   I'd consider both more trained and experienced than a Buddhist monk. 

In terms of technique, Danny is probably over all the most skilled fighter among them excepting possibly Daredevil.  Danny has access to weird wu-shu Chi techniques that Daredevil doesn't though.

Where Danny falls down is life experience.  He's more likely to fall for tricks and traps that other more suspicious/paranoid characters (Jessica) would not.

I have to admit that I'm looking forward to Season 2 of The Defender if/when The Punisher enters the mix.  Even Jessica will be a little freaked out by him.

[johntfs]

On 8/26/2017 at 11:18 PM, hypnotoad said:

Kilgrave was a genuinely scary villain. He wasn't trying to rule the world, or destroy New York or find dragon bones. He was just a guy who did things to people for his own amusement and his power is really frightening. I mean compared to the endless kung foo-ing in this show.

One thing that's interesting about Kilgrave is that for all he's derided as being mean and childish (and he is/was both of those things), he was still pretty much avoided by Wilson Fisk and the Hand, probably because they knew enough about what he could do that it scared the living shit out of them.

[Lady Calypso]

I'll read through the thread more after I write my thoughts on the finale. But man, was this final episode really, really damn good. A lot happened, which is what I've been waiting for from this series. So many different pairings being used, which was great to see.

Ok, yes, I am not ashamed that I did cry at Matt's "death" and the reactions afterward. Karen and Foggy's realization when Matt didn't walk through that door shattered me inside. And yes, Jessica totally teared up when the building came down.  

I thought the fight scenes were well done. Do I wish they had brightened them up more? Of course. I did enjoy the Matt/Elektra fight. For how toxic their relationship has been, Charlie and Elodie do have chemistry that made it tolerable for me. It's too bad Matt didn't fare too well because of it.

I enjoyed every single aspect of the climax. Poor Misty; she didn't get the whole story and got caught in the crossfire. Now, part of me wants to go back and try to finish Luke Cage so I can see what's in store for season 2 with her. I'll probably continue to skip Iron Fist. He was a weak spot in this series, though only tolerable because of everyone treating him like a dumb little shit.

It was nice to see Jessica and Luke's scenes. I actually have grown an appreciation for their relationship. Colleen/Danny are....well, they're there. I do like Colleen, but I don't think I can stomach 13 hours of Iron Fist, or a season 2 of Iron Fist. 

Now with the reveal that Matt is, indeed, alive, I need to see everyone's reactions on Daredevil season 3. That means bringing back the Defenders for, like, an episode. I know this was a miniseries, but part of me would not be opposed for another season down the line. I did like everyone working together and if they can incorporate the supporting characters more, I'd be down for more Defenders. I think their biggest misstep was having too many scenes of the Hand and not enough of the Defenders themselves. 

[Delphi]

I think you might be able to stomach iron fist.   I think Finn is a good actor but Danny is a weak character,  if I'm to be honest,  but his supporting players matter.   All his scenes in this series were elevated because of who he was acting against,  I for instance love the subtle interactions between him and Jessica.   Iron Fist wasn't my favourte,  but there was a lot of fun stuff between meeting Ward and Joy, lots of Claire and Jeri scenes that made her feel much more humanized than in Jessica Jones.   In fact,  I'd wager that jjSeason1 helped shape her actions in iron fist and it was fun to watch.   Luke Cage,  I had to drink through but the last string of episodes were solid.   I think it was a good show,  I just don't think I was the target demographic. 

[Sakura12]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:54 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I do like Colleen, but I don't think I can stomach 13 hours of Iron Fist, or a season 2 of Iron Fist. 

If you want to see a different side of Jeri Hogarth or see more of Madame Gao then I would watch Iron Fist. But I don't feel it's necessary to watch his show. The supporting characters on Iron Fist were the best part.  However if you thought Danny was dumb in the Defenders it is much worse watching him be so very dumb for 13 episodes. The only advantage is everyone knows that Danny is dumb and uses that.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

If you want to see a different side of Jeri Hogarth or see more of Madame Gao then I would watch Iron Fist. But I don't feel it's necessary to watch his show. The supporting characters on Iron Fist were the best part.  However if you thought Danny was dumb in the Defenders it is much worse watching him be so very dumb for 13 episodes. The only advantage is everyone knows that Danny is dumb and uses that.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what was the narrative point of making Danny such an idiot - it makes it so hard to root for him, and he's the protagonist, so we should want to root for him! Surely he could have been reckless and naive while still being allowed to be sympathetic and charming? It's a shame - I mean, Finn Jones tried, but he was given so little to work with. Although having said all that, I actually found Iron Fist more entertaining than Luke Cage, in many ways. Once I'd accepted that Danny was an idiot and his own worst enemy, I just disengaged my brain and allowed myself to be entertained by the comic book fun in a way that I never could manage with the very earnest Luke Cage.

There's a lot I could say about The Defenders, overall, but when I look back, my biggest quibble is actually that we got all the way to the end of the series without a single scene between Matt and Claire exploring just how damn much Claire has changed since Matt last saw her -  I mean, seriously, the woman who walked away from him because she didn't want to get too deeply involved in the dangers of his world is now throwing herself in wholeheartedly, fighting alongside the superheroes even? That's quite the turnaround. I really wish there'd been space for us to see Matt to react to that, even just the tiniest of conversations would have been better than the nothing we got - I mean, they barely even exchanged a single sentence. Somehow that bugs me more than the gaping plot holes and uneven pacing - I can live with gaping plot holes and uneven pacing, but I need coherent and meaningful character interaction, dammit! And of all the gaps in that regard, this one bugs me the most.

[festivus]

On 3/20/2018 at 11:20 AM, Llywela said:

There's a lot I could say about The Defenders, overall, but when I look back, my biggest quibble is actually that we got all the way to the end of the series without a single scene between Matt and Claire exploring just how damn much Claire has changed since Matt last saw her -  I mean, seriously, the woman who walked away from him because she didn't want to get too deeply involved in the dangers of his world is now throwing herself in wholeheartedly, fighting alongside the superheroes even? That's quite the turnaround. I really wish there'd been space for us to see Matt to react to that, even just the tiniest of conversations would have been better than the nothing we got - I mean, they barely even exchanged a single sentence. Somehow that bugs me more than the gaping plot holes and uneven pacing - I can live with gaping plot holes and uneven pacing, but I need coherent and meaningful character interaction, dammit! And of all the gaps in that regard, this one bugs me the most.

I know I've said somewhere on this site that the only woman I ever thought Matt had any chemistry with was Claire. I wonder if that was why they didn't have a scene together. It would just highlight imo how little chemistry he has with Elektra and the anti-chemistry (romantic) he has with Karen. Or it could be that The Defenders was a steaming pile of dreck. It goes on the very bottom of my list of Netflix Marvel shows if only because it could and should have been so much better. I liked Iron Fist better because although boring, it at least had Ward who I thought was the best character. Also, even though Danny got on my last nerve, he and Colleen at least did have chemistry with each other.

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

As others have said, they missed a lot of character moments that I would like to have seen; for that reason, I wish it had been an episode or two longer so some of that could be fit in.

I wanted a Matt/Claire conversation.  I also wanted Luke to acknowledge to Danny that apparently dragons are real.  Finally, while we did get some interaction between Jessica and Luke, I really wanted him to a say after what Kilgrave did to him, he understands what she did.  It's clear he doesn't still hold Reva's death against her and he has a right to be mad that she lied to him but Jessica's reaction in JJ1 to him forgiving her and finding out later that he was being Kilgraved was heartbreaking to me and I wanted Jessica to hear it for real this time.

Also, Claire was my favorite romantic interest for Matt but since she is clearly out of the running, are we supposed to root for Karen and Matt after he chose almost certain death to stay with Elektra rather than leaving with the others and going back to Karen/Foggy?  It makes Karen look like runner up in any future Matt/Karen relationship.

Regarding Karen and Foggy's attitude towards DareDevil - I found Foggy's attitude more sympathetic than Karen's.  I thought it was clear in DD that Foggy had a personal/moral problem with vigilantes and the fact that Matt was breaking laws rather than working through the system.  He was also really worried about Matt's safely.  Karen on the other hand, didn't have a problem with vigilantes or law breaking or violence, she just didn't want Matt to be the one doing those things - I'm assuming because she was worried about him but still, its fairly unsympathetic position.