S03.E08: In the Line of Fire

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

A final consultation for bottom surgery awaits Jazz and her family in San Francisco, and they hope this one gives them better news than the first three. Meanwhile, Jazz debates conservative commentator Tomi Lahren.

A reminder, PTV has a No Politics rule.  Stated simply, we can discuss items that were brought up on the show.  We do not delve into other political issues.  As always, this is a television forum and we are discussing a reality TV show.

On this episode Jazz is speaking with a commentator who can be polarizing.  The Mods do not have early access to the show, so we do not know in advance exactly which topics will be discussed.  We ask you to be mindful of keeping the discussion on topic and respectful. 

Happy posting!

@17wheatthins and @PrincessPurrsALot 

[VioletNevermind]

I'm loving this new surgeon.  "We don't ask 'What's your erect penis size?' on a first date."  Indeed, Dr. Marcy.  I Iike the fact that she is transgender as well.  It adds a bit of authority to her advice.  Also, in watching Jazz and her parents visit surgeon after surgeon, I've often wondered why no one has proposed a simple (well, "simple") skin graft from her abdomen or upper thighs to compensate for the lack of raw material, so to speak.  It seems like it would be a hell of a lot easier than using a portion of her colon, for God's sake.

[jacksgirl]

Agree. Dr. Bowers is a rock star. Jazz is very well spoken, she did a good job with Tomi. Really hope Jazz has her surgery after high school. Jeanette's reasoning makes no sense. If they feel Jazz needs academics to stave off depression, she can take some classes at a community college while recovering from surgery. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by jacksgirl

[mythoughtis]

I don't understand why they are being allowed to even consider surgery at this age. That's a pretty final ( as in permanent) procedure. A poster on a different ptv forum said extensive counseling is usually done first. Plus- we don't consider 16 year olds capable of handling alcohol/ but they can handle this decision? 

As to the colon- perhaps it's the 'feel' of the tissue? I remember a docudrama about a women who needed extensive plastic surgery after an accident and they used vaginal tissue to rebuild her lips. 

[Barlowe]

In order to get approval for the surgery to actually take place, she has to undergo extensive counselling but she can still line up a doctor that will perform it afterwards. I only caught the last half of the episode and that was enough. The interview was a misguided waste of time and Jazz shouldn't have bothered. She was not prepared, not well-versed in PR  talk enough to convince Tomi or her audience of anything good. She shouldn't have brought up sneaking into the bathroom and getting caught; it just gave Tomi ammo. I was reminded of the CNN nightly debates between commentators when watching the author friend and Tomi. She pretty much spoke more than Jazz did so it would've been better to just have the author friend represent Jazz since she was throwing out stats and had a clear agenda and argument.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Lilacly

[Tenarife60]

I feel Jazz has a really tough life being out and open about herself like that, and answering for all trans people.  What she said on the Tomi Lahren show was true for her I'm sure, that she always knew she was a female and wanted to be one, but a lot of male-to-females say they weren't aware of their female feelings until they were about 50.  Sometimes older than that.  I've known some that were like that.  They believed they were heterosexual crossdressers up until that point.  I don't know what snapped in their head that convinced them all of a sudden.  What Jazz should've said is people transition for different reasons and all transgender people aren't like her.

[jacksgirl]

Lilacly, the other guest on the show was the author (co-author) of the book I am Jazz. Don't know her background, but she seems well versed about transgender people.

[Barlowe]

4 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

Lilacly, the other guest on the show was the author (co-author) of the book I am Jazz. Don't know her background, but she seems well versed about transgender people.

She was well versed but Jazz wasn't and it made it so the author had to do double work; backup Jazz but also debate with Tomi

[VioletNevermind]

First of all, I have no doubt that they didn't change Tomi Lahren's mind about anything, but I was pleasantly surprised at the reasonable, cogent discussion they all had.  A quick glance at Twitter reveals how Tomi Lauren really feels about things, but this was a decent interaction, at least on the surface.  Tomi will head to Twitter and her Internet show to toe that party line and Jazz will return home, unscathed.  No harm, no foul at the end of the day.

Now.  As for the surgery, I wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree with the decision to allow Jazz to get the surgery when she's still in high school.  I have no doubt whatsoever that it's what she truly wants to do.  I'm completely assured that she truly wants to be a fully-realized female in terms of anatomy, but wow, is 16/17 young for such a huge decision!  My transgender high school student would most definitely be waiting until he/she was 18.  There's no way in this world that I would be complicit as a parent of an underage child in making the decision to have such a massive surgical procedure.  Greg and Jeanette are such wimps for allowing her to call the shots like this.  Graduating high school with as high a GPA as possible should be priority number one, with any surgery coming afterward.

As for the future of this show, I'm sure it will be renewed, but I almost hope it's not.  Jazz is exposed to far, far too much vitriol and animosity at her tender age.  She's a high school junior.  We shouldn't be hearing about her masturbation schedule or her orgasmic potential.  It's just wrong.  Every time I watch this show, I feel the need to contact any adult connected with its production and slowly explain to them that Jazz is still a child.

Edited August 10, 2017 by SuzyLee

[Caracoa1]

Why would Jazz have to go off hormone blockers for awhile before surgery?  If she shows any sign of male puberty before her surgery I believe that would be detrimental to Jazz's emotional well being.

[TomGirl]

What was the very last thing Jazz said at the end of the show?  I rewound three times but still couldn't understand what she said.

[Desert Rat]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I don't understand why they are being allowed to even consider surgery at this age. That's a pretty final ( as in permanent) procedure. A poster on a different ptv forum said extensive counseling is usually done first. Plus- we don't consider 16 year olds capable of handling alcohol/ but they can handle this decision?

Sixteen year olds are capable of handling some important decisions, even without parental consent, i.e., abortion.  Why not bottom surgery? (Hey, Mods, this is on topic. I swear it is.)  

1 hour ago, Tenarife60 said:

I feel Jazz has a really tough life being out and open about herself like that, and answering for all trans people.  What she said on the Tomi Lahren show was true for her I'm sure, that she always knew she was a female and wanted to be one, but a lot of male-to-females say they weren't aware of their female feelings until they were about 50.  Sometimes older than that.  I've known some that were like that.  They believed they were heterosexual crossdressers up until that point.  I don't know what snapped in their head that convinced them all of a sudden.  What Jazz should've said is people transition for different reasons and all transgender people aren't like her.

Jazz can't make these arguments because she is too young. She lacks life experience and empathy for others.  Her argument is essentially, agree with me or you are a hater.  Not at all effective. 

[woodscommaelle]

8 hours ago, TomGirl said:

What was the very last thing Jazz said at the end of the show?  I rewound three times but still couldn't understand what she said.

Wasn't it "So you guys ready?"

I thought Jazz did a wonderful job with the interview.  She just told her story. Calmly and cooly.  

"We lost mom?" lol 

If I had to bet, Ari and one of the twins (I haven't figured out who is who but I'm thinking of the one who is more outspoken) will stay in school as long as possible and then won't move back to S. Florida. They are a very close family but I think those two are somewhat checked out of this whole thing. And there's nothing wrong with that. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by woodscommaelle

[MegD]

Jazz, quit fixating on sex in the first date. You know, I'm 38 and I'm still a virgin. That doesn't mean I don't go on dates or kiss guys or have a good time. It just means that right now, I'm not interested in a sexual relationship outside of marriage. Jazz (and Jeanette) seems to think that one must immediately jump into bed the first date. Just go have fun and see where things go. If above the waist touching is okay, go with it. Guys (and girls) who are worth it will respect boundaries.

Color me unsurprised that they found a doctor to give Jazz just the surgery she wants. I was surprised no one mentioned the scars which will be left from the skin grafts. These are going to have to be full thickness grafts (not just thin layers of skin). I'd be more concerned about big incision looking scars on my lower abdomen than using colon tissue but I guess I'm not in the hunt for a "beautiful" vagina. There was something about this doctor that sent up red flags in my opinion.

Jazz was on victim mode from the second she walked onto the Tomi Lahren set. Tomi stopped and shook their hands as she entered, however, the person with them was talking about the tour of the studio. It's highly likely that this is done for every person on Tomi's show and Tomi isn't supposed to interrupt it given the short time schedule between arrival and show. The same is true with them being in hair and makeup together. It was pretty clear that Jazz was turned away from Tomi in the makeup chair. Could she have been friendlier? Yes. But is it reasonable that Tomi was not interested in engaging with Jazz prior to the show? Yes. The other factor is that they were going to be debating on the show. Not discussing the issues or even really talking beforehand isn't uncommon. It may confuse the audience if one or the other starts referring to items discussed before the debate. This could also have made one or the other skip some important item for discussion if they'd already gone over it. Jazz, Jeanette, and Jessica all seemed to misunderstand Tomi's "raped in the bathroom" rhetoric. Even when she was discussing the topic, she never stated that the transgender individuals were the criminals and perverts in the bathrooms. She, instead, was referring to criminals who would say "Oh I'm transgender" purely to gain access to somewhere they shouldn't. None of these individuals would be actually transgender. It goes back to the definition of transgender and the lack of a standard which we've beaten to death several times. Is it poorly worded? Absolutely. Is it intentionally poorly worded? Probably. However, so long as individuals are not discussing the same issue at the same time, this is never going to be a productive debate. Even when Tomi was asking about Jazz's sneaking into the girls' room in second grade in relation to being a pervert, it did not seem, at least to me, that Tomi was looking for an affirmative statement ("Yes, they called me a pervert") but rather recognition of the distinction between the two types of people. I couldn't determine if it was oddly edited or not. The topic seemed to be dropped after that statement.

It is worth noting that recently Tomi posted a piece regarding the transgender military ban. While most of her piece was similar to prior statements, she focused on one aspect that is relevant to Jazz. She mentioned that both the transgender and military communities have incredibly high suicide rates and the combination of the two is reckless and dangerous. Given that part of the justification for Jazz to have surgery before her 18th birthday is the risk of suicide, it would have been interesting to hear the discussion between Tomi and Jazz on this topic. Unfortunately, I think the knee jerk reactions of each would prevent an actual debate on the topic though. Both are too busy being right to actually listen to the other. Neither Tomi nor Jazz seem to have much empathy for the other side of an argument. Clearly, Jazz decided that Tomi was a "hater" before she walked in.

Since when does anyone snorkel in muddy water? What the hell was that?

[Desert Rat]

Jazz is transgender.  Jazz wants bottom surgery.  Bad people hate Jazz.  Blah, blah, blah.  Snooze.  Put this baby to bed already.  

[Desert Rat]

12 minutes ago, MegD said:

Jazz, quit fixating on sex in the first date. You know, I'm 38 and I'm still a virgin. That doesn't mean I don't go on dates or kiss guys or have a good time. It just means that right now, I'm not interested in a sexual relationship outside of marriage. Jazz (and Jeanette) seems to think that one must immediately jump into bed the first date. Just go have fun and see where things go. If above the waist touching is okay, go with it. Guys (and girls) who are worth it will respect boundaries.

Color me unsurprised that they found a doctor to give Jazz just the surgery she wants. I was surprised no one mentioned the scars which will be left from the skin grafts. These are going to have to be full thickness grafts (not just thin layers of skin). I'd be more concerned about big incision looking scars on my lower abdomen than using colon tissue but I guess I'm not in the hunt for a "beautiful" vagina. There was something about this doctor that sent up red flags in my opinion.

Jazz was on victim mode from the second she walked onto the Tomi Lahren set. Tomi stopped and shook their hands as she entered, however, the person with them was talking about the tour of the studio. It's highly likely that this is done for every person on Tomi's show and Tomi isn't supposed to interrupt it given the short time schedule between arrival and show. The same is true with them being in hair and makeup together. It was pretty clear that Jazz was turned away from Tomi in the makeup chair. Could she have been friendlier? Yes. But is it reasonable that Tomi was not interested in engaging with Jazz prior to the show? Yes. The other factor is that they were going to be debating on the show. Not discussing the issues or even really talking beforehand isn't uncommon. It may confuse the audience if one or the other starts referring to items discussed before the debate. This could also have made one or the other skip some important item for discussion if they'd already gone over it. Jazz, Jeanette, and Jessica all seemed to misunderstand Tomi's "raped in the bathroom" rhetoric. Even when she was discussing the topic, she never stated that the transgender individuals were the criminals and perverts in the bathrooms. She, instead, was referring to criminals who would say "Oh I'm transgender" purely to gain access to somewhere they shouldn't. None of these individuals would be actually transgender. It goes back to the definition of transgender and the lack of a standard which we've beaten to death several times. Is it poorly worded? Absolutely. Is it intentionally poorly worded? Probably. However, so long as individuals are not discussing the same issue at the same time, this is never going to be a productive debate. Even when Tomi was asking about Jazz's sneaking into the girls' room in second grade in relation to being a pervert, it did not seem, at least to me, that Tomi was looking for an affirmative statement ("Yes, they called me a pervert") but rather recognition of the distinction between the two types of people. I couldn't determine if it was oddly edited or not. The topic seemed to be dropped after that statement.

It is worth noting that recently Tomi posted a piece regarding the transgender military ban. While most of her piece was similar to prior statements, she focused on one aspect that is relevant to Jazz. She mentioned that both the transgender and military communities have incredibly high suicide rates and the combination of the two is reckless and dangerous. Given that part of the justification for Jazz to have surgery before her 18th birthday is the risk of suicide, it would have been interesting to hear the discussion between Tomi and Jazz on this topic. Unfortunately, I think the knee jerk reactions of each would prevent an actual debate on the topic though. Both are too busy being right to actually listen to the other. Neither Tomi nor Jazz seem to have much empathy for the other side of an argument. Clearly, Jazz decided that Tomi was a "hater" before she walked in.

Since when does anyone snorkel in muddy water? What the hell was that?

Thank you for this thoughtful, balanced post.   

[woodscommaelle]

9 hours ago, MegD said:

There was something about this doctor that sent up red flags in my opinion.

This.  The conversation about orgasms?  Did not need to happen in front of Jazz's parents...in my opinion.  Either way,  just not a fan of the doctor in general.

That water they were in was awful.  Were they supposed to go in the ocean?  I would have said no to the swampy waters.  There was something so funny to me about Jeanette totally losing her bearings and ending up on the other side of that barrier.  She also seemed impressed and proud of Jazz during the talk with Tomi Lahren.  Proud mama.

Edited August 10, 2017 by woodscommaelle

[Ina123]

What is this obsession with a BEAUTIFUL vagina? Is she intending to put in on display for all to see? In her situation she should just be glad to have one.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ina123

[Desert Rat]

22 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

What is this obsession with a BEAUTIFUL vagina? Is she intending to put in on display for all to see? In her situation she should just be glad to have one.

What woman talks that way about her vagina who is not in porn?

[ClareWalks]

When Jazz said the most important thing to her was that her vagina be beautiful, I thought "well shit, here I thought the number one priority for a vagina is that it be FUNCTIONAL." Real women (meaning those not photoshopped) have vaginas that look all sorts of ways, on a spectrum from very beautiful (whatever that means in this context) to hideously ugly (whatever that means in this context). Honestly, if I were getting surgery to alter my genitals, my main and primary concern would be to remain orgasmic. Jazz really doesn't seem to care *at all* about her own sexual pleasure, which is strange to me.

[Impatient]

I don't think Jazz has felt any sexual pleasure, has she?  So to her, it's all about being wanted and desired and it stops there.

[Muffyn]

In defense of Jazz's talk of wanting a beautiful vagina, I think she is using shorthand for wanting genitalia that looks normal to her.  There are huge variations in genitalia.  With so much easier access to porn, the idea of an aesthetic ideal is more prevalent.  (Cue Lauri Metcalf from Getting On screaming, "There is no such thing as the perfect vulva!") In her discussions with Dr. Bowers, Jazz was really talking about functionality.  Depth isn't for looks; it's for function. 

For any other person, I would say have the doctor leave the room when you talk about sex, masturbation, etc.  For Jazz, it's all going to be on TV anyway.  It wouldn't be my choice to have this discussion on front of my parents.  I would be more like Jazz's dad - how quickly can I crawl out of here and pretend I never heard any of this.  But the rules of the game change a bit when your child is dealing with major decisions.  Given Jazz's willingness to share everything, now her brothers will be subjected to her tales of masturbation. 

I was happy to see Jeanette say to Jazz that dating isn't all about sex.  She could kiss and cuddle and simply spend time with someone. 

[Passing Strange]

Apparently the "beautiful vagina" idea, or its opposite, is prevalent enough that the May issue of Cosmopolitan had an article which included the notion of low genital self-esteem. The story at the link is incomplete, but you can get an idea.

At first I thought this was perhaps one of the most stupid ideas I've ever encountered. Then I remembered when I was much younger, not being willing to leave the house without having used vaginal deodorant. You know, because the scent of the freshly washed area that wasn't even exposed to air might offend someone. With women being told, and accepting, that we need to "improve" ourselves in so many physical areas, it was only a matter of time before we started obsessing over the beauty of parts that most people we know will never see.

[Desert Rat]

18 minutes ago, Passing Strange said:

Apparently the "beautiful vagina" idea, or its opposite, is prevalent enough that the May issue of Cosmopolitan had an article which included the notion of low genital self-esteem. The story at the link is incomplete, but you can get an idea.

At first I thought this was perhaps one of the most stupid ideas I've ever encountered. Then I remembered when I was much younger, not being willing to leave the house without having used vaginal deodorant. You know, because the scent of the freshly washed area that wasn't even exposed to air might offend someone. With women being told, and accepting, that we need to "improve" ourselves in so many physical areas, it was only a matter of time before we started obsessing over the beauty of parts that most people we know will never see.

I agree with your first thought, low genital self esteem is very stupid.  But if that is your biggest problem, you have a charmed life.  Post menopause, I don't care much about appearances; I'm all about function (like the good old days).

[woodscommaelle]

When Noelle and Jazz were in the park feeding the birds....they were having a great time like two high school kids.  Or anyone laughing and having a great time.  But when the conversation turned to Tomi and Jazz going on the show and Noelle wanting to speak out against her or something?  Jazz told her that she didn't want Noelle to be vocal bc of the negative effect it would have on Jazz's family....Noelle looked absolutely dumbfounded.  Her patience is seriously waning.

Noelle, if you're reading this:  Get into activism or something.  Get your voice heard.  You are amazing! 

Edited August 10, 2017 by woodscommaelle

[gingerella]

Well hurray for Jazz, she finally found a doctor who told her exactly what she demanded to hear! Honestly? I think she obsesses about the look of her 'new' genitals because she has zero understanding about sexuality, which is rather ironic since this is a show about a kid who has wanted to be a girl their entire life. But it's all about the external/superficial aspects of femaleness. The whole show has jumped it's own shark as far as I'm concerned, because it's turned into a circus, when it was intended to educate. As someone said last week I think, they could be talking about soooo much more important aspects of what it means to be a transgender teen, but instead we get an entire season of Jazz spending her parents money to fly around and find a doctor who will give her "America's Top Vagina", which I'm sick of hearing about. I felt like Noelle was so much more compelling when talking about Tomi L, I wish we could 86 Jazz and her family and get a show about Noelle instead. @woodscommaelle, you're right, Noelle DID look dumbfounded, and I think it's because she has had to endure so much more ridicule coming out publicly, compared to Jazz, who's been coddled her entire life. She knows nothing about struggle compared to people like Noelle and Lynn.

And speaking of Jazz's family, hey Jeanette, 1981 called, it wants it's glasses and makeup back...

Edited August 10, 2017 by gingerella

[Kid]

4 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

 

Noelle, if you're reading this:  Get into activism or something.  Get your voice heard.  You are amazing! 

I am liking Noelle more and more, too, and Jazz less and less.

[TomGirl]

54 minutes ago, Passing Strange said:

low genital self-esteem

Well, now I've heard everything.  In the immortal words of Fred Mertz: "Oh, for corn sake!"  (And yes, I know I'm dating myself.)

[Bellalisa]

I was concerned that the doctor seemed SO shocked that Jazz had never had an orgasm and doesn't masturbate. She attributed this to Jazz not being comfortable with her male genitalia. I attribute this to her not having any urge to masturbate due to not having gone through puberty and not having any hormones which spur on a sex drive. Can a 7 year old boy have an orgasm?  I know they can get an erection and experience sexual pleasure but I'm not sure if they can orgasm. I am pretty sure they can't ejaculate at age 7. Jazz is like a 7 year old boy in that respect. Unless the female hormones she takes give some arousal in that area. Once boys get into puberty, they can't stop themselves from masturbating as they have urges. 

What really concerned me is this seemed to shock this doctor, after seeing Jazz's genitals. It all shocks me. I did like the idea of her telling Jazz to play with it to stretch out the skin, but I have doubts she can have an orgasm. It was pretty horrible discussing all of this on TV. What people won't do  for a paycheck. I mean they could show Jazz life and support transpeople without talking about Jazz's masturbation schedule. 

Surgeon number 2 maybe was going to use abdomen skin- the one who wanted the surgery in 2 parts- we never (or the family) got the actual details of how that vaginoplasty was going to be performed. 

58 minutes ago, TomGirl said:

Well, now I've heard everything.  In the immortal words of Fred Mertz: "Oh, for corn sake!"  (And yes, I know I'm dating myself.)

Love Ol' Fred Mertz here and I said For Corns Sakes ALL the time!

[Impatient]

I am just now watching the episode and am STUNNED that the first words out of Jazz's mouth are relating to all she is capable of doing is oral sex.......   It really bothers me that this transitioning experience means Jazz has never had innocence.  She has never ever been allowed to be a sweet innocent child with romantic crushes that are NOT all about sex parts.  This is just so abnormal.  Is this the way it is now for all kids?  Don't kids have sweet romances any more?

"I want a standard vaginoplasty because it's what I've always dreamt about."  I just don't even know where to start with everything that is wrong with that statement.  Also, Jazz converts what these doctors are saying to her into what she wants to hear.   Dr. Bowers tells her "skin grafts from lower abdomen".  I don't think she understand this.  It turns her immediately into a significant burn patient.  She will require cadaver skin grafts over and over again and she will be in enormous pain. And so what does Jazz translate to?  "Dr. Bowers says she can do a standard vaginoplasty all in one operation (as opposed to Christine mcGinn who suggested a second surgery to construct the external portions of the genitalia.)1  Hooray, its what I always dreamed of."  Also, this will be a skin transplant.  A tube constructed of skin and internalized.  Is skin strong enough to withstand this function?  I woud like to have heard them discuss this new topic even a little bit but all that we heard was that "hooray, the vagina I have always dreamed of".  

Not sure what the time frames of these segments are;  I am sure the consultation with Marci Bowers occurred a long time before or after the Tomi Lahren show occurred, because Jazz, on that examining table was very seriously overweight  She looked at least 25 pounds lighter in TX.

Re: Tomi Lahren.
"Tomi might be conservative but not all of us in here are.  You're in friendly fire."  That made me laugh.  Apparently the people from the Blaze are idiots.  Friendly Fire is not comforting, though probably apropos.  As regards the subsequent interview with Tomi Lahren, Jazz, her mom and the overly ambitious writer friend are delusional if they think that went really well for their side.  I can guarantee thy made NO points with the right, opposing bathroom transgender rights.  

 

Family outing:
I never really saw how much makeup Jazz wears till I saw Ari sitting next to her.   Ari does not wear makeup and that demonstrated how much makeup Jazz does wear.   There are some weird dynamics going on with those other kids and Jeanette and Greg.  When Jeanette sys, at the restaurant over dinner, ' I am so glad you kids all came home" she immediately looked down, after making brief eye contact with ari.  And she then immediately said "Ari has become a total adult".   The brothers are way happier when Ari is there too, as opposed to when just they come home and Ari does not.  I hpe someday, the producers or technicians wiill spill their guts as to what was going on behind the scenes.  

 

 

+

 

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, Muffyn said:

In defense of Jazz's talk of wanting a beautiful vagina, I think she is using shorthand for wanting genitalia that looks normal to her.  There are huge variations in genitalia.  With so much easier access to porn, the idea of an aesthetic ideal is more prevalent.  (Cue Lauri Metcalf from Getting On screaming, "There is no such thing as the perfect vulva!") In her discussions with Dr. Bowers, Jazz was really talking about functionality.  Depth isn't for looks; it's for function. 

 

Yes I agree with you about that, the focus on "beautiful" means "normal for an XX assigned female at birth woman". 

@gingerella I agree Jazz knows little about sexuality for a 16year old. Not that 16yr old girls are experts on that (I hope not) but most of us at that age understand how our arosal works and the basic mechanics needed to get us to orgasm solo......

Okay wait I take that back there are grown women in romantic relationships that have never had an orgasm, know nothing about what turns them on sexually and think their vaginas and vulvas exist for the sake of the men in their lives. 

Maybe Jazz has so much dysphoria it's hard for her to even think about her sexuality, but she forgets the biggest sexual organ is the brain. It's not going to all just fall into place once she has bottom surgery. 

 

She is very young though- by the time she is 21 she will have a different outlook on things. 

 

Quote

I am just now watching the episode and am STUNNED that the first words out of Jazz's mouth are relating to all she is capable of doing is oral sex.......   It really bothers me that this transitioning experience means Jazz has never had innocence.  She has never ever been allowed to be a sweet innocent child with romantic crushes that are NOT all about sex parts.  This is just so abnormal.  Is this the way it is now for all kids?  Don't kids have sweet romances any more?

@Impatient I do think Jazz did have innocence! However she's past the age of "sweet romances" (that not older people cannot have sweet romances), but at sixteen for most people, dating and romance is also about exploring your sexuality with a partner. (Eventually, im not talking about the first or second date)

I'm 31, so I was 16 a bit ago, and I spoke to @Granny58 about this, but I totally understand a young person not being into dating if they aren't interested in partnered sexual activity (for whatever reason that might be- not saying you can't date if you don't want sex!). I totally get why Jazz feels all she can do is perform fellatio and who would want her because of that- that felt real and human to me. I still think she should wait until 18 to have the surgery but I understood her feelings. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Impatient]

oh and by the way?  Jazz is now going to start masturbating on a daily basis.  Which makes me wonder if she will decide that hold on, maybe she is a boy after all.  and finally, she said she is going to have it done in the sumer between junior and senior years, which is now.  This means she should have had the surgery by now.  

Has it all been done super top secret?

[VioletNevermind]

Jazz said she was a sophomore during the dating in the dark episode, which would have been filmed several months ago.  She would be a rising junior right now and on track to have the surgery next summer.  Jazz has a ton of things to accomplish before she's cleared for surgery, not least of which are her (*extensive*) therapy sessions.  Girlfriend had better learn to love therapy because she's in for a ton of it.

Edited August 10, 2017 by SuzyLee

[gingerella]

I suspect, based on Jazz's reaction and answer to the Dr. regarding her sexual preference/who she is more attracted to, that she may be more interested in being with women once she has her surgery, but she doesn't want to say it aloud yet. I say thbecause she comes off as so obsessed with being what she considers "a normal girl" and it seems like that includes being a female who is sexually attracted to males - at least that's the impression I get.  She seems almost repelled by actual boys her own age - regardless of whether they are transgender boys or not - Shane 1 and Shane 2 - so perhaps she knows she's attracted to women, but isnt ready to say so because it is another level of 'different-ness', compared to her mental image of being a straight girl, which it seems is what she's been obsessed with for years. I'm only going on how she presents herself and talks about herself...and I dont mean any disrespect to straight or gay women - it's just an observation I noted last night in how she talks about herself.

ETA: I think Jazz is so grossed out by her own genitals that I can easily see her not wanting to be with a male because she is so put off by her own male genitals, small as they might be.

Edited August 10, 2017 by gingerella

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

And speaking of Jazz's family, hey Jeanette, 1981 called, it wants it's glasses and makeup back..

This.  Jeanette, tone it down girl.  

I found Tomi Lahren to be a cold fish, but not a hater as was feared.    Of course, I didn't expect her to be  a "hater" because differences of opinion =/= hate.  

30 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Not that 16yr old girls are experts on that (I hope not) but most of us at that age understand how our arosal works and the basic mechanics needed to get us to orgasm solo......

I had NO idea at 16.  

30 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

She is very young though- by the time she is 21 she will have a different outlook on things. 

Well definitely this.  She's been too young to do all the permanent things she's done thus far IMHO.

[Impatient]

I had no idea at 16 either.  I knew what arousal felt like, but not by mechanical stimulation.  Quit seriously, finding my vagina to stick a tampon into was a revelation.  I never even knew it was there!  This was at age 17!  I didn't start menstruating till very late.

 

One commenter here said if all she can do is fellatio, who would want that?  Well from the female's point of view, giving and not receiving is not fun.  On the other hand, a hefty percentage of the females of the world spennd their entire lives never ever being sexually gratified.  In fact, one of Dr. Bowers' specialties is reconstructing clitorises for womeen who have been genitally mutilated in 3d world countries.  And from the male's point of view  I think mmost teen-aged boys would not be too upset at that prospect.  

I am relieved to hear that Jazz has another year to work on this.  I dont think she is attracted to girls, at least not yet.  I think she feels totally inadequate around boys, especially cis boys.  I think she doesn't feel she has a right to be with a boy like Shane, and she is ashamed and embarrassed and afraid of being humiliated at the most fundamental level.  



 

Oh and Jazz was offended that Tomi Lahren didn't speak to her more before the show but that is the way it is with ALL talk.interview shows.  No one wants to waste any of it off-camera.

[Scarlett45]

@Granny58 @Impatient interesting- I think I dated and engaged in partnered sexual activity somewhat "late" compared to my peers, but I knew the basic fundamentals of orgasmic masturbation and how arosal worked around 13-14years old. 

I think teen girls experience these things it's just not talked about as much (at least openly) as it is with teen boys. Gotta love yourself yo! Lol. 

 

Awww @Impatient your tampon story is hilarious (not laughing at you at all), those little pamphlets they give you in the box are silly and not helpful.  I wasn't insinuating that no guy would want to be with Jazz because all she had to offer was the ability to perform fellatio- I mean I could understand how SHE would feel that way as young and inexperienced as she is. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Desert Rat]

12 minutes ago, Figster said:

I have a M to F friend who also watches I am Jazz.  She told me something that really made me feel sad and a bit surprised at first.  She said she believes Jazz is likely currently imagining that once the gets a vagina (the "perfect" vagina), then she will be exactly the same as a cis female..  Society says this, her parents tell her this, as do the doctors.  In fact it's considered bigoted to say otherwise.  My trans friend said she had the same dream Jazz had and thought bottom surgery would make her into that bio female she always felt she was and wanted to be.  But her depression at feeling incomplete before bottom surgery only increased, when upon entering the dating world after having it completed, she still found that her dream was not realized.  That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens.

I'm not surprised at the 98.8% figure.  Even if a hetro man can overcome the psychological issues in being with a trans woman, are is also the physical.   Men desire a certain experience.  A surgically created vagina will not function the same to give that experience.  I don't want to be graphic, but the things I can do with my V to please a man  cannot be replicated by patching together parts of a penis, a colon, and bits of skin.  No surgeon is that good.  

[Dobian]

Marci Bowers actually became famous when she opened a clinic in Trinidad, Colorado.  My wife's family is originally from Trinidad, and we have gone there for reunions a couple of times.  Also coincidentally, Bowers' office that Jazz went to is just a couple of cities over from us and walking distance from my aunt's house.  Small world.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Dobian

[Granny58]

7 hours ago, Figster said:

I have a M to F friend who also watches I am Jazz.  She told me something that really made me feel sad and a bit surprised at first.  She said she believes Jazz is likely currently imagining that once the gets a vagina (the "perfect" vagina), then she will be exactly the same as a cis female..  Society says this, her parents tell her this, as do the doctors.  In fact it's considered bigoted to say otherwise.  My trans friend said she had the same dream Jazz had and thought bottom surgery would make her into that bio female she always felt she was and wanted to be.  But her depression at feeling incomplete before bottom surgery only increased, when upon entering the dating world after having it completed, she still found that her dream was not realized.  That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens.

It's a HUGE shame that actual information is considered bigotry.  It is hard enough finding the right person when you are not TG, that definitely adds so much more complexity and hardship...and that's not bigotry, it's reality.  If our culture could get out of our touchy feely/hurt/offended mindset and into truth that would probably serve everyone better.  I feel sorry for your friend, but agree that eventually there will be somebody for her. 

[Scarlett45]

@Figster I agree that Jazz's desire for a "perfect vagina" means that she won't be "different" or "other" any more and she wants that desperately. Who can blame her- we all want to be accepted and life is always harder when you're "different". 

 

On a similar vein I know a transwoman, who is married to a friend of mine (lesbian relationship) and she faced the same difficulties w/dating and relationships dating cis women that transwomen who want to date cis men face. However she met my friend and they are quite happy together. 

 

This is is why I think Jazz would benefit from the mentorship of older trans people (men and women) who have walked the road before. (Not saying she's not getting that now). I don't want her self esteem dependent on someone else or having a certain body part, it should only enhance her life. I'm not a professional though just a viewer. 

[SongbirdHollow]

8 hours ago, Figster said:

My trans friend said she had the same dream Jazz had and thought bottom surgery would make her into that bio female she always felt she was and wanted to be.  But her depression at feeling incomplete before bottom surgery only increased, when upon entering the dating world after having it completed, she still found that her dream was not realized.

Interesting! Very similar to the phenomenon of a lot of overweight people who get thin, through surgery or otherwise, then feel disappointed that it really hasn't changed their life in the way they thought it would. All the more reason for Jazz to jump into therapy with enthusiasm, not reluctance, and put off surgery until she matures. I agree with @Scarlett45 about the mentorship aspect. I hope she's getting it.

[Ina123]

16 hours ago, Impatient said:

Oh and Jazz was offended that Tomi Lahren didn't speak to her more before the show but that is the way it is with ALL talk.interview shows.  No one wants to waste any of it off-camera.

I remember years ago on Regis and Kathie Lee when Regis mentioned that exact thing. They both said they never did small talk before the show because it would hamper the real spontaneity of the shows opening segment. Something really great could happen off camera and not be genuinely re-created.

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

Interesting! Very similar to the phenomenon of a lot of overweight people who get thin, through surgery or otherwise, then feel disappointed that it really hasn't changed their life in the way they thought it would. All the more reason for Jazz to jump into therapy with enthusiasm, not reluctance, and put off surgery until she matures. I agree with @Scarlett45 about the mentorship aspect. I hope she's getting it.

I had the same thought! Many people who lose tremendous amounts of weight believe being "thin" will solve all their problems, when in reality they are the same people just thinner. Some things are easier (like shopping for clothes) but their personality is the same. 

 If Jazz really believes that she isn't worthy of sexuality or romantic love until she has a "perfect vagina", having a vagina won't help her that much. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Ina123]

At least jazz does have to go through "some" therapy to get her surgery. I'm hoping it's a truly qualified person who can help her. I just don't want it to be a revolving door of "OK"..."Next".

[Impatient]

In this sense, the colon vaginoplasty might actually serve Jazz better.  I wonder if comparitive studies have been done?

 

i am sure everyone here has heard of Howard Stern.  There is a transgender woman named Siobhan Meow who has been on his show often.  Along with her very beautiful cis daughter Helaine.  Siobhan had the penile inversion surgery in two steps, as desribed by Dr. christina McGinn.  I know this is tasteless but it is available on youtube for those of you who are interested.  What happened is that Siobhan, who is an alternative, underground artist in Manhattan, was not able to find a romantic partner following her bottom surgery.  So she appeared on the Stern show for help in finding such a person, and in hopes of being handsomely paid as she had borrowed the money for the surgery from her brother.  The man who eventually did have sex with Siobhan (and it could never be described as making love), described the experience and compared it to sex with men, and with cis women.  

 

I felt terribly sorry for Siobhan at first, because i thought it was humiliating for her.  But i think being in the underground art scene for so long has desensitized her.  She was not at all embarrassed or even self-conscious and it turned out to be very informative for the listening audience, who all wondered:  what is sex like in this situation?  If any of you choose to look it up on Youtube, i must warn you that Howard Stern and his friends treated Siobhan with cruel and demeaning humor, which she seemed fine with.  I think her outlook and sensibilities are very much male.  A woman would have been mortified.  So take heart that her feelings were not being hurt.  To some extent, that Jazz is so flawlessly female will stand her in good stead, but i worry that her very female sensibilities will open her to pain. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Impatient

[msrachelj]

On 8/9/2017 at 9:49 PM, jacksgirl said:

Agree. Dr. Bowers is a rock star. Jazz is very well spoken, she did a good job with Tomi. Really hope Jazz has her surgery after high school. Jeanette's reasoning makes no sense. If they feel Jazz needs academics to stave off depression, she can take some classes at a community college while recovering from surgery. 

or she can take online classes while recuperating. 

[Impatient]

" That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens."

 

Did Jeanette (and Greg) think this would change by the time Jazz grew up?  Did they thin that if she was indistinguishable on the outside from any other woman that genitalia would be less of an issue?  That maybe by then, (i.e. now) there would be transplants?

I know that now on the surface of things, they think any problems out there are totally surmountable.  But I just think it is strange that if they supposedly embrrked on this whole journey to avoid risks of suicide, they have not considered the factors that might cause depression later.

 

[possibilities]

I don't think they are unaware of the on-going risks. Jeannette talks all the time about how worried she is for Jazz. But they did what they did with the idea that they were making the best choices they could with the options available, in a difficult situation.

[Scarlett45]

18 hours ago, Impatient said:

" That is, the men she truly wanted and was attracted to, cis hetero guys, mostly (99.8%) ran like the wind once she revealed she was transgendered.  I keep telling her there will be the right guy out there that will love her, all of her including her past.  But dating is a very difficult and largely demoralizing for her currently and I worry about her state of mind at times based on our conversations.  I hope Jazz understands that even the perfectly made vagina may not give her the perfect happy life she's envisioning.  Her road is a tough one, and i hope she becomes centered enough as a person (regardless of gender or bodily parts) to feel solid and centered in the world no matter what happens."

 

Did Jeanette (and Greg) think this would change by the time Jazz grew up?  Did they thin that if she was indistinguishable on the outside from any other woman that genitalia would be less of an issue?  That maybe by then, (i.e. now) there would be transplants?

I know that now on the surface of things, they think any problems out there are totally surmountable.  But I just think it is strange that if they supposedly embrrked on this whole journey to avoid risks of suicide, they have not considered the factors that might cause depression later.

 

I think no parent can know what the future holds. There are many people who are depressed that are not trans or aren't having romantic relationship issues. 

I do think Jeanette and Greg were focused on Jazz being able to "pass" because that is going to make her day to day life easier. Having bottom surgery isn't going to assist her being "read as female" when she goes through daily living (working, shopping, errands, school, friendships). 

I also think that logistically growing up and living as a girl/woman is a hell of a lot less stressful than transitioning when you're 40plus with an entire career/social network/possibly nuclear family with spouse and bio kids that all have to adjust and go through your transition as well (in a way).  

I do hope that through Jazz's therapy she realizes bottom surgery isn't the "cross the finish line, you may now collect $200" that she thinks it will be. Granted she's only 16, plenty of grown ass adults think "oh when I get this job, when I have this relationship, when I weigh this much I will be happy", and they end up more depressed than before. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Scarlett45
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