S19.E17: Power of Veto #5

[laurakaye]

39 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I am reasonably impressed with Cody and Jessica. They actually discuss what their problems are and are reasonably articulate in where their heads are at. Cody took his stuff out of the room to give Jessica space, which is pretty darn mature. Cody was actually pretty clear that he didn't know what to say to make Jessica be happy or deal with their problems. He was honest with her about his behavior and how it happens. She was honest with him as to why it was a problem and why he couldn't do it. To be frank, it struck me as one of the most mature conversations I have seen in the history of the game. Both of them are talking to the people that they trust about their differences and trying to understand what happened and how to deal with the other. I like that Mark listened, I am annoyed that Elena tried to use it for game.

I don't have to like how Cody responds or agree with him politically or think he is the brightest bulb in the house but I do think that he is pretty good about talking to Jessica and trying to figure all of this out. I doubt the two of them are really compatible but I like that they understand that talking is necessary and they are not running from the big issues. I actually like that they balance each other out. Jessica gets Cody out of Paul's face. Cody is there to defend Jessica. Seriously, I can't think of a season of this show where I have seen this type of relationship. It feels far less contrived.

Any way, Josh is an asshat. But we know that. Mark is spot on that the entire group is targeting Cody and is annoyed that they are all doing Paul's bidding. Josh explodes because Mark is aghast at what is happening. And Josh thinks that Mark is a bully?

And Paul is the ring leader of the entire mess.

After futilely trying to put my thoughts on this episode into words, I read this post and for me it's spot-on, especially the lines I bolded.

I kind of hate myself for being riveted to my tv while watching this episode.  I agree that Jody, while unlikely to make it outside of the house, do understand each other and are able to converse without resorting to the child-like behavior we typically get from BB contestants.  Mark sees through everything and is sticking up for Cody despite making himself a target, Josh goes off on him like a toddler on steroids, and everyone else just sits there smiling because they aren't allowed to have a thought unless Paul puts it there.  Elena also seems to be trying to put together a semblance of an individual game for herself, but is aware enough to know that she can't give that appearance as long as Paul is in power.  I need to have Marlena and Jody somehow combine forces to get Paul out of that house, because without him, the others - having had their brains removed when Paul exits - will simply spend the rest of the game stumbling into walls and trying to form coherent sentences.

I can't remember the last time I watched this show and was actually interested in the dynamics between houseguests.  Cody was right about Paul all along.  I'm interested to see if/when the majority finally sees this and gets "our boy" to stepping right out the front door (where I hope he will be heartily booed).  

Edited August 3, 2017 by laurakaye

[NYCFree]

9 hours ago, butterbody said:

Wait, Did you just spoil the veto ceremony?

I don't think I can forgive your equilibrium, man.

No spoilers from me. I meant "I presume that Jessica would insist Paul use his veto on her, in order to guarantee her safety." They didn't show any such discussion and I'd like to know why.

[Halting Hex]

That actually would make Paul's (likely BS offer) more tempting, so I don't know if Jessica wants to put herself on the horns of that dilemma.  It might be more likely that Paul would make the offer, rather than Jessica demand it.

 

Of course, Paul would more likely stop getting tattoos than he would give up any fraction of power, so…

[AndreaK1041]

10 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Cody's deadpan "ah-choo" during the Veto comp was almost the best moment of the episode.

Cody's deadpan was excellent throughout, including at the end when he was hit by a big inflatable animals and said "ok" in a completely hilarious way. He's so over it.

[Mumbles]

Quote

Josh is gonna HATE himself when he sees how easily he allowed himself to be manipulated.

I don't think he has that self-awareness.

Quote

I love Cody.  Yes, I do and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Quote

Also every time Mark is in the Diary Room (? I am still learning the lingo) I fall in love with him because he looks so vulnerable there.

In a show that has been mostly populated by fameballs and poseurs for years and years, these two come off as endearingly sincere. I have a soft spot for Mark - former fat kid, lost his parents as a teenager, raised by his grandparents. That and all the shit he has to deal with from Josh.

[GalvDuck]

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I hate Paul but he is a genius.  If he's as great of a player as I think he is, he should manipulate Jessica to not use the Hex and then boot Jessica.

This!  A thousand times...this!  I was thinking that earlier this week.  If she doesn't use it, boot her.  Cody is a big enough target and he'll be gone soon enough.  She's dangerous if she stays in the game because she'll have a stronger game without Cody.  So, she needs to go first.  However, if she chooses to use it this week, there's no safety for next week.  As long as one of the others wins HOH, Jody would still be a target.

I want Jessica gone before Cody because you know he'll be alone in the game.  She still has a chance to build alliances if she stays in the game.  Dangerous threat....

[mojoween]

If Jess were to get booted and Cody and Mark then lost HOH I feel like Cody would DOR post-haste.

[backformore]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I mentioned this on Sunday's episode, because my husband noticed it. He works out a lot and many of his friends do as well. He said stretch marks like that are a big sign of steroid use. Especially on the shoulders. You pump up a lot quicker than your body can keep up with. Sure, you can also get those during adolescence, because of a growth spurt. I did. But they're generally on your hips, stomach, thighs - not necessarily the shoulders. I don't know, though, I've never found Mark overly ragey. I don't watch anything but the actual show, but I've only ever seen him get super angry with anyone but Josh, and I'd think Josh would provoke that reaction in ANYBODY

both of my sons were naturally skinny, and started weight lifting in high school.  As adolescents,  testosterone allows boys' muscles to grow very fast.  Both of my sons have some stretch marks, which their doctor explained as being due to rapid muscle growth.   One son has stretch marks on his right arm and shoulder because he was a shot putter and discus thrower in high school, and that over-worked his right arm.   

Edited August 3, 2017 by backformore

[Halting Hex]

46 minutes ago, Mumbles said:

In a show that has been mostly populated by fameballs and poseurs for years and years, these two come off as endearingly sincere. I have a soft spot for Mark - former fat kid, lost his parents as a teenager, raised by his grandparents. That and all the shit he has to deal with from Josh.

It would be nice if, after spotlighting Mark's dead parents and Jessica's dead dad, the show would give a mention to Cody's late brother, Dillin, who was killed in a motorcycle accident in 2011, when Cody was serving in Afghanistan.  Poor Tragic Trio, alas.

Meanwhile, Paul lives at home with his millionaire parents.  But he's Grodner's Boy…

(And of course, there's Dying Swan Raven!  She's dying, dying, dying!  Any day now, honest! Yeah, surrrre.)

[Rachel RSL]

13 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

He didn't take a swing at or touch Paul - in fact he agreeably stepped out until the little big man kept taunting him - totally on-the-nose with needing to have the last word.

 

I would hardly say that he agreeably stepped out.  He was challenging Paul physically with the typical Alpha male douchebag getting in your face all "What are you gonna do about it?" He was clearly trying to instigate a fight and I liked that Paul kept responding "Nothing." He also had to ask him to leave several times.  And why? Because he determined that his princess needed saving simply because Paul calmly asked her to lower her voice? Even Jessica knew that Cody had turned nothing into something.

13 hours ago, North of Eden said:

First Paul, Christmas and Elena are loathsome...what they tried to do was actively kill Cody and Jessica's relationship OUTSIDE of the GAME as well. That is so far out of bounds I can't believe it.

In closing Cody was right....if there had been no Paul it really could have been his game with Mark as his deputy but Alison Grodner must have her pets after all!

Cody and Jessica don't have a relationship outside the house. Hell, they barely have a functional relationship inside the house. Cody is some random guy she's known for a few weeks, not the love of her life who she's been with for 20 years or something. And, even if he was, Paul, Christmas and Elena suggesting that Cody is bad for Jessica's game is the absolute truth.  People have been saying it here on the boards for weeks.

Cody was right about one thing though, this absolutely could have been his game to dominate but he didn't lose that opportunity because of Paul. He lost it because he blindsided his entire alliance in the very first week. He can blame Paul all he wants but he's the one who tanked his own game. And he's dragging Jessica down with him.

 

11 hours ago, Artsda said:

Josh is horrible, that edit with that fight with Mark was not kind at all to him. He looks insane and I wouldn't have blamed Mark for wacking him with the pan.

See, Josh can be annoying as Hell for sure, but in my opinion, it's Mark who keeps crossing the line. Josh is like the irritating little brother who does aggravating things like sticking his finger next to your face while saying "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." Mark, on the other hand, is the one who actually threatens to cross the line into actual physical violence. Between throwing the drink in Josh's face and charging up to him while threatening to hit him with the pots & pans, Mark is coming off just as bad as Josh. All because of a stupid game of pool. Men.

Jason was the best weatherman! I almost died laughing when he got hit with that first shark! Agreed with whoever it was upthread who said that Cody's robotic "ah-choo" was one of the highlights. Every competition should involve the houseguests getting pelted with large, inflatable sea creatures.

[backformore]

1 minute ago, Rachel RSL said:

. Between throwing the drink in Josh's face and charging up to him while threatening to hit him with the pots & pans, Mark is coming off just as bad as Josh. All because of a stupid game of pool. Men.

I think the natural reaction to someone taunting you while banging pans together would be to grab one of the pans and make that gesture like you're going to hit them with the pan.  

I'm pretty sure I would do it,  but I'm physically not threatening, so it wouldn't be seen in the same way.  (more like an old lady swinging a purse) 

[Nashville]

11 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Cody's deadpan "ah-choo" during the Veto comp was almost the best moment of the episode.

For me, the "best moment" wasn't even shown onscreen - it was my mental imagery of the behind-the-scenes crew on the PoV comp cackling maniacally as they gleefully throw everything except the kitchen sink into the blast from the windstorm fans to nail the HGs.  Whatcha bet the off-duty crew had a major watch party at the nearest bar for this episode, just to watch THAT comp?  :D

 

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Josh is the definition of the person who provokes you into hitting them first. I HATE people like that. 

Echo echo ECHO.   The only reason Josh is "brave" enough to carry out all the taunting is his certain knowledge an entire Production crew exists to save him from any of the repercussions he would experience in real life for such behavior - and to me that is an absolute mark of an abject coward.

[YouKnowNothing]

20 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I would hardly say that he agreeably stepped out.  He was challenging Paul physically with the typical Alpha male douchebag getting in your face all "What are you gonna do about it?" He was clearly trying to instigate a fight and I liked that Paul kept responding "Nothing." He also had to ask him to leave several times.  And why? Because he determined that his princess needed saving simply because Paul calmly asked her to lower her voice? Even Jessica knew that Cody had turned nothing into something.

Cody and Jessica don't have a relationship outside the house. Hell, they barely have a functional relationship inside the house. Cody is some random guy she's known for a few weeks, not the love of her life who she's been with for 20 years or something. And, even if he was, Paul, Christmas and Elena suggesting that Cody is bad for Jessica's game is the absolute truth.  People have been saying it here on the boards for weeks.

Cody was right about one thing though, this absolutely could have been his game to dominate but he didn't lose that opportunity because of Paul. He lost it because he blindsided his entire alliance in the very first week. He can blame Paul all he wants but he's the one who tanked his own game. And he's dragging Jessica down with him.

 

See, Josh can be annoying as Hell for sure, but in my opinion, it's Mark who keeps crossing the line. Josh is like the irritating little brother who does aggravating things like sticking his finger next to your face while saying "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." Mark, on the other hand, is the one who actually threatens to cross the line into actual physical violence. Between throwing the drink in Josh's face and charging up to him while threatening to hit him with the pots & pans, Mark is coming off just as bad as Josh. All because of a stupid game of pool. Men.

Jason was the best weatherman! I almost died laughing when he got hit with that first shark! Agreed with whoever it was upthread who said that Cody's robotic "ah-choo" was one of the highlights. Every competition should involve the houseguests getting pelted with large, inflatable sea creatures.

My problem here is that action SHOULDN'T have tanked his game. He was *right* to want to get a vet out of the game ASAP. These people jumped ship and latched onto a puppet master. If I were Cody, I would be infuriated that those people couldn't see that he was making a move that actually benefitted everyone. ESPECIALLY seeing as how these people are HAPPY to let Paul win $500k as long as they get to jury. These people SHOULD have been upset that Paul got THREE WEEKS of safety and kept it a secret, they should not be upset that Jessica told everyone she gets to halt an eviction, basically delaying the inevitable. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by YouKnowNothing

[butterbody]

1 hour ago, NYCFree said:

No spoilers from me. I meant "I presume that Jessica would insist Paul use his veto on her, in order to guarantee her safety." They didn't show any such discussion and I'd like to know why.

Thanks for clarifying. I try to remain spoiler free but I know sometimes things slip out here so I'm sorry if I sounded crazy! 

[TaraS1]

14 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

What in the world is Josh so god damn angry about?

I feel like Josh may be dealing with some things about himself that perhaps he hasn't come to terms with yet.  Which doesn't make me hate him or his annoying, infantile behavior any less, but still...

[Halting Hex]

9 minutes ago, YouKnowNothing said:

These people SHOULD have been upset that Paul got THREE WEEKS of safety and kept it a secret

Especially as the "team" apparently made a pact that they would tell if any of them got the Temptation.  Paul broke that pact.  He wasn't part of the initial group, he slimed his way in later, he made a pledge, Cody realized he was a danger and a liar, he took a shot at Paul rather than send Jason home (and got safety for seven people in the deal!), and he got fucked because Grodner hung three weeks of safety on Paul's microscopic dick.  Any decent allies would have been "well, you tried, bro.  No hard feelings." But pretty much everyone except Jessica and Mark was immediately "let's follow the CBS favorite! That won't screw our games AT ALL!" and there went Cody's social game.

I hope Cody gets to split some beers with BBOTT's Monte at the wrap party. They can discuss the need to drop the single returning player in Week 1, and how to do it.  At least Jason Roy (BB 17/OTT) was "only" catty and foul-mouthed.  Banana Beard needs to STFU, pretty much forever.

[eurekagirl mOo]

I LOVE Paul (ducking the rotten tomatoes) That dude KNOWS how to play the game and he is a Master at it. Like him or not, he's smart and he has a plan.

Josh needs to G.O. He's annoying, and dangerous! That pot banging has to stop. He did that to me he's have a pot somewhere he would need a Doctor to get out!

Codys creepy. That is all.

Kevin!!! Where is my Kevin??? We see him in tiny little pieces. Often separating the idiots from hitting each other. He's always so calm and so cool. I LOVE that someone "older" has lasted without the normal bull of "Get the old guy out" He is SUCH a good sport! Dresses up and participates. What a doll baby. His girls should be super proud of their Dad. I loved his "advice" to Ramses (?) about passing fake bills right before they close so they don't look too close. Classic. 

[Mumbles]

Yeah everyone talks about how Cody screwed up because he "blindsided" his alliance. IIRC his alliance was Mark and Matt, and then the "hotties" - Elena, Raven, Jessica and Dom. And IIRC Paul was only at the periphery of this group, and Cody was completely candid with his bros about his desire to get rid of Paul early on. So I don't understand why others got so angry at Cody for putting up Paul when what they should have been annoyed at is that Paul got the temptation and didn't tell them.  I guess it doesn't matter because it is what it is. 

[Nashville]

57 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I would hardly say that he agreeably stepped out.  He was challenging Paul physically with the typical Alpha male douchebag getting in your face all "What are you gonna do about it?" He was clearly trying to instigate a fight and I liked that Paul kept responding "Nothing." He also had to ask him to leave several times.  And why? Because he determined that his princess needed saving simply because Paul calmly asked her to lower her voice? Even Jessica knew that Cody had turned nothing into something.

Except Paul wasn't actually being mature; Paul was going out of his way to push Cody's trigger buttons.  Twice (I believe) Paul said "Leave", and Cody was leaving - until each time Paul, unable to control his inner bitchboy, had to throw just one more insult at Cody's back.  At which point Cody returned.  Point being, neither Paul nor Cody had any monopoly on maturity in that conversation.

 

Quote

See, Josh can be annoying as Hell for sure, but in my opinion, it's Mark who keeps crossing the line. Josh is like the irritating little brother who does aggravating things like sticking his finger next to your face while saying "I'm not touching you. I'm not touching you." Mark, on the other hand, is the one who actually threatens to cross the line into actual physical violence. Between throwing the drink in Josh's face and charging up to him while threatening to hit him with the pots & pans, Mark is coming off just as bad as Josh. All because of a stupid game of pool. Men.

 

Yeah, but here's the thing: Josh isn't Mark's "little brother", or any other HG's little brother for that matter.  Josh is not a child; he is a 23yo man of not-inconsiderable size who is engaging in over-the-top provocative behavior for extended periods of time.  His behavior is extremely childish, to be sure - but in a calculated way, as this child freely provokes his HG "siblings" to the extreme with the confident expectation the Production "parents" will spare him from any consequences to his actions.  

Purely my personal opinion, but grown people should play by grownup rules.  YMMV

[Callaphera]

2 hours ago, NYCFree said:

No spoilers from me. I meant "I presume that Jessica would insist Paul use his veto on her, in order to guarantee her safety." They didn't show any such discussion and I'd like to know why.

I think it's supposed to be an exercise of trust, which is why it wasn't brought up.

Paul would have to show trust in Jessica not using the Hex but Jessica would have to show trust in Paul and remain on the block. Jessica could still change her mind at any time which would make the deal null and void. She doesn't need to be one of the nominees to use the Hex. But if she doesn't trust them enough to keep her safe, why would she trust them to hold to their two week safety/evict Alex safety deal?

[butterbody]

I finally figured out who Cody reminds me of! He's Jimmy, the lead singer of the ONEders from "That thing you do". 

His deadpan weatherman was funnier than any shtick Paul and Jason tried to put on.

[ghoulina]

2 hours ago, Mumbles said:

I don't think he has that self-awareness.

Me either. I think Josh will think he's just awesome when he watches. 

 

1 hour ago, YouKnowNothing said:

My problem here is that action SHOULDN'T have tanked his game. He was *right* to want to get a vet out of the game ASAP. These people jumped ship and latched onto a puppet master. If I were Cody, I would be infuriated that those people couldn't see that he was making a move that actually benefitted everyone. ESPECIALLY seeing as how these people are HAPPY to let Paul win $500k as long as they get to jury. These people SHOULD have been upset that Paul got THREE WEEKS of safety and kept it a secret, they should not be upset that Jessica told everyone she gets to halt an eviction, basically delaying the inevitable. 

I agree and I don't agree. Cody was right about Paul, and it's frustrating how all these losers are essentially handing him the game. But part of having an alliance means working together. Maybe it wasn't shown in the episodes, but I didn't see Cody try to talk with everyone about his plan. So I don't know that it was necessarily PAUL himself that was the issue, but the lack of trust and communication Cody showed with his group. And then he turned around and threw CHRISTMAS up there, when Paul was safe, and they were even further astounded. He really fucked up with that one. He kind of has the right idea, but horrible execution. 

Now, why the rest of those idiots took all their Cody trust and heaped it onto Paul, I do not know. They could have iced Cody out without making Paul their new Lord and savior. But whatever. That's not the game we're gonna get, I reckon. 

[Nashville]

3 hours ago, YouKnowNothing said:

My problem here is that action SHOULDN'T have tanked his game. He was *right* to want to get a vet out of the game ASAP. These people jumped ship and latched onto a puppet master. If I were Cody, I would be infuriated that those people couldn't see that he was making a move that actually benefitted everyone. ESPECIALLY seeing as how these people are HAPPY to let Paul win $500k as long as they get to jury. These people SHOULD have been upset that Paul got THREE WEEKS of safety and kept it a secret, they should not be upset that Jessica told everyone she gets to halt an eviction, basically delaying the inevitable. 

There was only one problem with Cody's first-HoH plan; it didn't work.  

Not through any fault of Cody's, to be sure, but - it didn't.  

If it had worked, the HGs would have been hoisting Cody up on their shoulders immediately post-eviction, parading him around the House, and lauding him for so quickly and efficiently dispatching the Returning Vet.  And they would have been much more forgiving of his secrecy surrounding his noms, and probably even talking about what a smart game move it was.

But it didn't.

 

2 hours ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

Josh needs to G.O. He's annoying, and dangerous! That pot banging has to stop. He did that to me he's have a pot somewhere he would need a Doctor to get out!

Just had a glorious image of Mark popping up unexpectedly in the DR, handing the assistant producer du jour a couple of broken-off pan handles, and saying (with an expression of absolute contentment) "I'll show myself out now" before heading out the Door and sailing off serenely into the sunset....  :D

 

ETA: whoops - left off the "... to the accompanying musical tones of Josh's anguished screams in the background....". Left the picture incomplete.  :>

Edited August 3, 2017 by Nashville
AAAAAIIIIEEEERRRRGGGHHHHH...!!!!!

[Mumbles]

Quote

I finally figured out who Cody reminds me of! He's Jimmy, the lead singer of the ONEders from "That thing you do". 

His deadpan weatherman was funnier than any shtick Paul and Jason tried to put on.

Yeah that's a good one, except he doesn't have Jimmy's pomposity or inflated sense of self. Like when he bleated last night, I will never win this game, it made me realize that he never will, because he doesn't have the ego to pull it off. Even players who go through periods of being intensely disliked can sometimes hustle and scrap by if they believe in themselves. I'm thinking of Frankie, who was so disliked the Caleb tried to tank their immunity challenge that time (failing miserably.) Or hell, even Paul had his periods of being on the outs last year. You need the survivor instincts of a sewer rat to win this, and Cody just doesn't have it.

Physically, I also see a little George Harrison and also, a little Luke Wilson in his "Idiocracy" era.

[Wandering Snark]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

And don't they do some kind of psychological vetting before casting?

To answer this one for this week's mention, the answer is that they only 'scan' for things good & bad that would make the person interesting in the house. There is no vetting per se.

21 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I think Josh will think he's just awesome when he watches.

Yeah he will be sitting there rewinding his "highlights" and asking anyone around to 'Watch this part with the pans, this was AWESOME'!!

[hnygrl]

I hated the season Derek won. I hate it when one person runs the game/the game is geared exclusively towards that one person winning. Some of the comps are ones PAUL WON last year. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'm hating THIS season because the entire game is geared towards PAUL winning. If I were a conspiracy theorist I would SWEAR they PROMISED him the win this year.

Paul's trying to out-Derek Derek and I hate him for it.

It's ruining the game. I hate watching grown ass men and women bow at the feet of a clown like him. None of these Mensa candidates can think past the end of their noses. They're handing him the game on a silver platter. Every time someone "wakes up" about Paul, they get sent to diary, PAUL gets sent to diary, and suddenly? It's all gravy baby.  I mean, Jessica and Cody on the block and she has the power to save them both.

BUT PAUL.

Talked her out of using it? Or did she go to diary and THEY dropped several bugs in BOTH ears and subtly browbeat her till she began to see the 'wisdom' in what Paul said? Conspiracy theorist? Yeah..Yeah I guess I am....

If he's still in  the house at Jury?
He's winning. These people...I'm kinda pinning all my hopes and dreams on Kevin and Whistlenut.

They're flying so far under the radar, and they're both in deceptively good shape. Smart men, savvy men, staying out of the drama. Hopefully they come up from the bottom and kill paul's dreams.

[PaperTree]

2 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Cody was right about one thing though, this absolutely could have been his game to dominate but he didn't lose that opportunity because of Paul. He lost it because he blindsided his entire alliance in the very first week. He can blame Paul all he wants but he's the one who tanked his own game. And he's dragging Jessica down with him.

That move set the entire course of the game.  Had he quietly gone to his "platoon" to see if maybe they thought that would be a good idea.  Instead he just "took command" and screwed himself.  He and Paul would have gone at it eventually, but he might have had more allies.  

[ProfCrash]

Josh spent how many hours following Mark around on eviction day banging pots and pans. The others were all giggling and rooting on Josh's over the top behavior. Josh specifically said he was going to make the next 7 hours hell for Mark. Mark is sitting in the kitchen, listening to Paul rile the group up to go after Cody. Mark realizes that Paul is encouraging the entire group to bully Cody and rile him up. Mark is disgusted by the group think. Josh see's Mark's body language and engages in conversation with Mark. Mark says his piece and Josh starts bitching about Mark opening his mouth. Josh then pulls out the same pots and pans that he had been using to intentionally harass Mark for hours on end to return to harassing Mark. So trying to say that Mark was out of place to stand up and take the pots and pans away is a bit silly. This was a specific action taken by Josh to harass someone.  That is like complaining that the kid you have been picking on and harassing for a week who decks you actually hit you. Josh made his bed, he can sleep in it.

The Producers have allowed the bullshit to go way too far. Three people have been targeted by the group and there is no one in that group with the balls to step up and tell them to stop. I suspect that no one is saying stop because they don't want to be the next target.

Mark could have walked away but Mark shouldn't have to walk away. Josh should act his age and not be trying to provoke a reaction.

Same for Paul and Cody. Paul orders Cody and Jessica to the HoH room. Cody does not want to go. Paul tells Cody that his comment included him and Jessica tells Cody to go. Cody goes. Cody wants to leave but Paul and Jessica keep telling him to stay. Paul is acting like Paul, Cody finally gets in Paul's face. Paul tries to act like Cody is at fault. Cody leaves, Paul taunts, Cody returns. Cody leaves, Paul taunts, Cody returns. Should Cody have left? Hell, Cody tried to not even be there. Jessica and Paul put Cody in that position. Jessica did not mean to cause a problem but did not trust that Cody knew not to be there. Paul was trying to provoke a reaction. Cody did not throw a punch, he wanted to but he didn't.

Neither Mark or Cody are 100% innocent in either incident but they have been harassed for days intentionally to try and get them to react.

So screw Paul. Intentionally harassing people so that the DOR or hit someone is not good game play. It is a cowards game play. in choosing this tactic, Paul is admitting that he cannot get Cody out the normal way and he is trying to change the rules. Riling a bunch of followers into a frenzy and sicking a man child on the people you want out to harass them is not good play. It is bullying and harassment. Paul can't beat them using conventional methods so he is willing to lead a mob.

[eurekagirl mOo]

When it looked like Josh and Mark were going to go fisty cuffs on each other did anybody else hear a voice (Big Brother?) saying "Opposite Sides of the House" Or was I that stoned??? LOL

[Nashville]

7 minutes ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

When it looked like Josh and Mark were going to go fisty cuffs on each other did anybody else hear a voice (Big Brother?) saying "Opposite Sides of the House" Or was I that stoned??? LOL

No, you heard right.  Said it twice, IIRC.

[ProfCrash]

Cody was not in the kitchen but came out to get Mark when he heard the opposite side of the house announcement. It was a rare moment where we heard Production.

[Mumbles]

Quote

other did anybody else hear a voice (Big Brother?) saying "Opposite Sides of the House" Or was I that stoned??? LOL

I'll have what you're having!

This could all be a teaching moment. We commonly think of women being the victims of harassment or bullying. But it can happen to men too, and it is ugly and painful when it is.

I don't anticipate it being one, but the disgusting racism of a few seasons ago did prompt a fair amount of coverage.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Josh spent how many hours following Mark around on eviction day banging pots and pans. The others were all giggling and rooting on Josh's over the top behavior. Josh specifically said he was going to make the next 7 hours hell for Mark. Mark is sitting in the kitchen, listening to Paul rile the group up to go after Cody. Mark realizes that Paul is encouraging the entire group to bully Cody and rile him up. Mark is disgusted by the group think. Josh see's Mark's body language and engages in conversation with Mark. Mark says his piece and Josh starts bitching about Mark opening his mouth. Josh then pulls out the same pots and pans that he had been using to intentionally harass Mark for hours on end to return to harassing Mark. So trying to say that Mark was out of place to stand up and take the pots and pans away is a bit silly. This was a specific action taken by Josh to harass someone.  That is like complaining that the kid you have been picking on and harassing for a week who decks you actually hit you. Josh made his bed, he can sleep in it.

The Producers have allowed the bullshit to go way too far. Three people have been targeted by the group and there is no one in that group with the balls to step up and tell them to stop. I suspect that no one is saying stop because they don't want to be the next target.

Mark could have walked away but Mark shouldn't have to walk away. Josh should act his age and not be trying to provoke a reaction.

Same for Paul and Cody. Paul orders Cody and Jessica to the HoH room. Cody does not want to go. Paul tells Cody that his comment included him and Jessica tells Cody to go. Cody goes. Cody wants to leave but Paul and Jessica keep telling him to stay. Paul is acting like Paul, Cody finally gets in Paul's face. Paul tries to act like Cody is at fault. Cody leaves, Paul taunts, Cody returns. Cody leaves, Paul taunts, Cody returns. Should Cody have left? Hell, Cody tried to not even be there. Jessica and Paul put Cody in that position. Jessica did not mean to cause a problem but did not trust that Cody knew not to be there. Paul was trying to provoke a reaction. Cody did not throw a punch, he wanted to but he didn't.

Neither Mark or Cody are 100% innocent in either incident but they have been harassed for days intentionally to try and get them to react.

So screw Paul. Intentionally harassing people so that the DOR or hit someone is not good game play. It is a cowards game play. in choosing this tactic, Paul is admitting that he cannot get Cody out the normal way and he is trying to change the rules. Riling a bunch of followers into a frenzy and sicking a man child on the people you want out to harass them is not good play. It is bullying and harassment. Paul can't beat them using conventional methods so he is willing to lead a mob.

+++++++++++1 to every word.

 

Another thing I found amusing was Paul talking to Jessica on the couch:

Paul: I'll do anything you want if you don't use the hex.  Anything.  I can make anything happen.  Whatever you want.  Anything, I tell you.  Name it.

Jessica:  I want Alex out.

Paul: Well...okay....well, see, I think - I need to talk to...yeah, I think I can probably - okay, so maybe I can - I'll have to check - er, so...okay.

I can only hope that while Jessica maintained her poker face as Paul sputtered, she realized exactly where Paul stands vis-a-vis getting rid of Alex.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, eurekagirl mOo said:

When it looked like Josh and Mark were going to go fisty cuffs on each other did anybody else hear a voice (Big Brother?) saying "Opposite Sides of the House" Or was I that stoned??? LOL

Yes. But I thought it was Kevin. LOL

[kassa]

It was definitely Big Brother commanding that they go to opposite ends of the house.  Multiple times.  

Josh is a  cowardly man child.  He was an emotional basket case on Day 2, second in delusions only to the guy last season (?) who thought everybody considered him the Moses of the group. Josh thought he was the biggest target and everybody was gunning for him before most of them even knew his name. So he raged out, sabotaged his small team, then spent the next few weeks crying. Somewhere along the line in his development he figured out that when he got aggressive, his size wasn't enough to make the taunts about his emotional volatility stop. .. but if he blustered people backed away.  But even when he's banging pots and pans and begging somebody to step up to him, he's scared, and no way would he do it without an audience.  He likely thinks people back off because he's so intimidating, when in actuality they back off because he's unstable.

No excuse for the behavior of the others in not telling him to knock it off.  

Cody is a horrible person, but I did feel for him in this episode.  And I respect Jess for standing her ground and having a difficult confrontation that far too many young women do NOT have with guys they're getting involved with when they first show signs of dangerous anger issues.  That said, I hope that at some point in unaired footage she informed him that people actually CAN change and grow if they want to, and he needs to get into therapy and deal with issues he readily acknowledges he has.  The elephant in the room, of course, is the PTSD issue from his time in the army.  Somebody needs to sit that young man down and tell him that the fact that he recognizes there's a problem means he's well on his way to repairing his life. 

This house is not good for Mark. Hope he wins a nice reward from America.

[Rachel RSL]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Maybe it wasn't shown in the episodes, but I didn't see Cody try to talk with everyone about his plan. So I don't know that it was necessarily PAUL himself that was the issue, but the lack of trust and communication Cody showed with his group. And then he turned around and threw CHRISTMAS up there, when Paul was safe, and they were even further astounded. He really fucked up with that one. He kind of has the right idea, but horrible execution. 

I completely agree. It wasn't that he tried to boot Paul, it's that he didn't tell anybody so they were all blindsided. If he had gone to them and told them about the plan to backdoor Paul, I have no doubt they all would have gone along with it. Especially since nobody wants to rock the boat in the very first week. 

Has Cody mentioned that he has PTSD or is this just something people are assuming? He could just be a douche with bad social skills. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[YouKnowNothing]

19 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I completely agree. It wasn't that he tried to boot Paul, it's that he didn't tell anybody so they were all blindsided. If he had gone to them and told them about the plan to backdoor Paul, I have no doubt they all would have gone along with it. Especially since nobody wants to rock the boat in the very first week. 

Has Cody mentioned that he has PTSD or is this just something people are assuming? He could just be a douche with bad social skills. 

He also was working in their best interest when he kept them in the dark. And I think he mentioned that he didn't want anyone else to take the heat for his move. But instead of seeing that he was doing them a favor, they pitched a fit and ran crying to Paul. 

[Rachel RSL]

Doing them a favour is what Cody probably told himself to justify it after the fact but I don't buy it for a second. When that first week was playing out, Cody mentioned that he wasn't telling anyone about his plan because he wanted to see who he could trust. 

[PaperTree]

4 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Cody mentioned that he wasn't telling anyone about his plan because he wanted to see who he could trust. 

Which made him totally untrustworthy to all of them.  Not really knowing the game, he had no idea what a bad strategy that was, especially in Week 1.  Unwritten rule #1 is:  Trust No One.  Trying to pull a "test" like this rarely works like the tester planned.

[MRMO]

Josh probably thinks he's the second coming of Dick Donato. Evil Dick did some unforgivable things,like the cigarette burning of Jennifer, but he did know how to play the game which is why he won. Still not someone to admire. Josh doesn't come slose to him. He's just a big baby who is trhe type that starts a barroom brawl and slips out as it starts.

[backformore]

If Cody's plan to get Paul out had WORKED -  he wouldn't be seen the same way by the others as he is now.  If I recall, he seemed like the "leader" the first week, and he and Jess were the "power couple"  in the house.  Until his plan to boot Paul fell apart.  

[Drogo]

Jessica doesn't want to "go through this"/"have a war" again.  

It's cute that she thinks the first this/war ever ended.

[lids]

I don't think Cody's alliance turned on him because he neglected to tell them he was nominating Paul. (Had he told them, they would have leaked it to Paul anyway.) The reason they turned on him was because they found out Paul had been given a temptation by America and they figured if they wanted a future temptation, they had to be on the "good side" - ergo they needed to be a friend of Paul's.

I want to say that the resulting boringness is just a flaw in the productions plan, but really, had the first temptation gone to anyone but Paul, it could have been a much more interesting season. I just blame the fans. The fans do the same stupid stuff every season where they give unnecessary advantages to the vet(s). I want to complain that no one wants to see "the Paul season" but there are some very voting frantic fans who actually loved Paul until it was too late. Now we're stuck with him.

As soon as Kevin heard America gave Jessica a temptation, he turned right around and started telling Jessica they were voting Ramses out. The minions are not loyal to Paul, they're trying to curry favor with the viewers. It only sucks because the game isn't structured in such a way that they can actually know what we want - we want them to play their own game!!!

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, YouKnowNothing said:

He also was working in their best interest when he kept them in the dark. And I think he mentioned that he didn't want anyone else to take the heat for his move. But instead of seeing that he was doing them a favor, they pitched a fit and ran crying to Paul. 

In Week 1, a great ally would be one who puts up Anyone But Me. 

Seems crazy that the three showmances wouldn't stick together. What did Matt/Raven think was going to happen once Jody and Marlena were broken up? And neither Matt nor Raven are worth a shit at controlling their own destiny(challenges.)

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

It wasn't that [Cody] tried to boot Paul, it's that he didn't tell anybody so they were all blindsided.

That's the spin after the fact, but the "group" had grown so large that it was unwieldly.  I mean, it was nine people out of 15 in the House, with Kevin sitting in on meetings despite not actually being in the alliance.  With Jillian already on the block, Alex holding the Veto and Josh the Safety Apple, Cody was pretty much running out of options.  It was either Jason or Ramses or weed out an internal problem.  And having chosen the last of these moves, he couldn't tell anybody, for fear the information might leak to Paul.

In addition, nomination-by-consensus had been putting a strain on relations between Cody and the rest of the Ever-Expanding Alliance, as Cody clearly felt pressured by Jessica (and perhaps Dominique) into nominating Alex as Meghan's replacement. Once Alex won the Veto, it seemed as though the rest of the "platoon" was willing to back off and let Cody make his own decisions.  Backdooring Paul would have been a shock, but not a deal breaker, IMO.  His true mistake was going for Christmas on the re-re-renomination, having decided that he could only trust "the couples" and Dominique.  (Not sure if he knew that Mark really preferred Dom to Elena.)  But at that point, it was almost too late to make any other movers, given that he'd given Jason his word.  

And also…

5 minutes ago, lids said:

The reason they turned on him was because they found out Paul had been given a temptation by America and they figured if they wanted a future temptation, they had to be on the "good side" - ergo they needed to be a friend of Paul's.

Yep.  Especially when the first Temptation was $25,000 (half the 2nd place prize money!) and the second one was an almost sure ticket to those oh-so-precious Jury House slots and weeks-upon-weeks of stipend-for-nothing that goes with it.  

Poor Hanukah must have been so disappointed to get a Temptation at the expense of her pulverized foot…and have it turn out to be nothing more than a tricked-up Veto Ticket, with no guarantee she'd even be medically cleared to play in the comp.  They just don't make Temptations like they used to.   

9 minutes ago, lids said:

 I just blame the fans. The fans do the same stupid stuff every season where they give unnecessary advantages to the vet(s).

But the vets are known quantities, and they come with built-in fan bases.  And it's not as if Grodner doesn't know this, and rely upon it.  In addition, when the Temptation was being voted on, it was one "Yer Boy!" against 15 newbies; Paul's vote was obviously concentrated whereas the votes for Cody/Jessica/Alex/whomever were split.  And again, it's not as if Grodner didn't know this wouldn't happen, either.  See, for example, the fan vote buyback in S13, where Brendon easily outpolled the three non-Brenchel evictees he was up against, in part because Brenchel fans didn't have any options other than the one.

1 hour ago, Rachel RSL said:

Has Cody mentioned that he has PTSD or is this just something people are assuming?

I don't think he's mentioned being clinically diagnosed, but it's clear (IMO) that he has depressive tendencies.  This does give him the benefit of being pretty much the only HG who has the ability to laugh at himself, but such self-deprecating "humor" is probably destructive, in the long run.

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Doing them a favour is what Cody probably told himself to justify it after the fact but I don't buy it for a second. When that first week was playing out, Cody mentioned that he wasn't telling anyone about his plan because he wanted to see who he could trust. 

Right. Also, I don't appreciate people trying to do me a favor without consulting me. Like, I'LL decide if I'd benefit from that, thank you very much. 

[Rachel RSL]

15 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I don't think he's mentioned being clinically diagnosed, but it's clear (IMO) that he has depressive tendencies.  This does give him the benefit of being pretty much the only HG who has the ability to laugh at himself, but such self-deprecating "humor" is probably destructive, in the long run.

I don't see depressive tendencies at all. I see an arrogant prick with little to no social skills who blames everyone except himself when things don't go his way. And humour? I don't recall seeing even a glint of humour from Cody, certainly not anything self-deprecating. If anything, it's the opposite. He seems to have a stick up his ass and takes himself way too seriously.

[ProfCrash]

I see someone who is used to living in close quarters with people he may or may not like but having to go and perform missions with them. You learn to button up your emotions and be careful with how you speak and approach others. Tempers flare and you do your best to walk away from the mess. Cody has a very different mind set to how you approach a high stress environment. He might not have PTSD and he might not be depressed. He is approaching some of this the same way he would approach the barracks or a forward operating base.

Cody is going to handle most of the bullying and in your face idiocy with a stoic face because, well, boot camp makes this look like nothing. But he knows how to put on the stoic face and hide your emotions because that is literally drilled into every Marine at boot camp.

I don't have to like his politics or some of his comments but he has handled this mess with a far higher level of maturity then most people would. Jessica has handled it like a champ as well. They both seem to get that they have to suck it up. They are talking to one another and occasionally blowing up at folks but they are doing a fine job of ignoring a systemic attempt to get them to walk out the door or punch someone.

Seriously, go to YouTube and watch a video or two about Marine Corp Boot Camp and look at the Recruits face and then think of Cody's face.

[hnygrl]

10 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

 

I see someone who is used to living in close quarters with people he may or may not like but having to go and perform missions with them. You learn to button up your emotions and be careful with how you speak and approach others. Tempers flare and you do your best to walk away from the mess. Cody has a very different mind set to how you approach a high stress environment. He might not have PTSD and he might not be depressed. He is approaching some of this the same way he would approach the barracks or a forward operating base.

Cody is going to handle most of the bullying and in your face idiocy with a stoic face because, well, boot camp makes this look like nothing. But he knows how to put on the stoic face and hide your emotions because that is literally drilled into every Marine at boot camp.

I don't have to like his politics or some of his comments but he has handled this mess with a far higher level of maturity then most people would. Jessica has handled it like a champ as well. They both seem to get that they have to suck it up. They are talking to one another and occasionally blowing up at folks but they are doing a fine job of ignoring a systemic attempt to get them to walk out the door or punch someone.

Seriously, go to YouTube and watch a video or two about Marine Corp Boot Camp and look at the Recruits face and then think of Cody's face.

 

As someone who spent 12 years in the Navy, and with brothers who spent time in both the Marine Corp and the Army, I can attest to this. It's not just Marine Corp Boot camp either, it's BOOT CAMP. PERIOD. We were taught this back in the day as well. Your second or third week in boot camp is Hell Week. And on day one, all the Drill Instructors for all the companies are invited into the barracks for "inspection."

Makes me shudder even now, all these years later. NOT fun. You're getting yelled at, your neighbors are getting yelled at, made to do push ups, etc. and you have to stand there. Stoic. Eyes straight ahead. Say nothing unless specifically ORDERED to speak, show no emotions. Cause if you do? EVERYBODY suffers. You cry and the whole unit does push ups until YOU get it together.

Cody's doing what he was trained to do. You go to that place sometimes when you know retaliating would be a bad idea/what they want, and you just let your eyes glaze over and exist until they stop. I feel for the guy. He's getting a really crap edit and getting slaughtered in Social Media but he's handling it the only way he knows how.

Man...flashbacks...eeesh...My niece just survived Army Boot Camp.

Ain't a thing changed y'all.