S01.E22: Beginning of the End

[Taeolas]

I don't think he's existing in comicdom (yet...) but the Comics in recent years have set up a lot of SHIELD bases staffed by spare LMD's; so he fits in like that at least. 

 

Loved the quips and zingers, especially with Coulson and Fury. 

 

When they showed Garrett's body still basically intact, I was thinking comic books right away... No one is dead until you see the body vaporized. A few minutes later, I was proved right, and the adage was proved right. :)  After setting up the miracle soldier repairer/Deathlok creator, they had to fire that Checkov's gun, even if it didn't do anything in the end.

 

Fury gave Coulson the resources to make SHIELD 2.0, while the governments of the world are still disassembling the original version. It should be big enough to come into the light (somewhat) by the time Avengers 2 happens. Especially since they have a year/season to themselves. (No more Marvel movies to wait on releases for; Guardians and Avengers are the next 2, and they're summer releases).

 

I do hope that Guardians has a teaser for AoS; maybe an explanation of the alien sleep-scrying Coulson is doing. 

 

I really appreciated that they gave explanations for the MacGuffins before triggering them. Fitz saying he made a signaller, so we have a reason for Fury to be searching in  the area. And the comment about the construction work going on, to explain why there was a construction site for the Ward/May fight. 

 

The incentive program certainly explained why the controllers skiddaddled so quickly and possibly even why the Deathlok's hearts weren't in the fight over all. 

 

And very few idiot balls (most of which could be explained by brainwashing and/or not very inspired controllers). Even the military guys seemed to be suspecting something was up and not buying into what was being sold. 

 

Can't wait for the fall now. :)

[Jack Kerouac]

This ...

 

And Tripplet seems just a boring as Ward was, and sort of like a forced diversification effort.

 

... and then this ...

 

I am happy that Triplett is now a member of SHIELD because they needed to diverisfy the team.

 

Makes me laugh. For the record, Triplett IS very boring.

 

Liked the episode, although as usual, you have to turn off your brain in order to watch. I loved the FitzSimmons stuff, even though it was contrived.

 

Here's my prediction for Season 2:

 

The team is 'forced' to work with Ward for some ridiculously contrived reason. Also, Fitz's lack of brain oxygen leaves him with AMNESIA right as Simmons realizes she loves him. So we get a full season of her pining after him.

 

Sigh.

[maraleia]

I loved the finale especially the interactions between the characters. This is the show I was hoping for when it first started last fall. I also hope they keep Triplett because the show needs more diversity and his character is made of win.

[Cranberry]

The team is 'forced' to work with Ward for some ridiculously contrived reason. Also, Fitz's lack of brain oxygen leaves him with AMNESIA right as Simmons realizes she loves him. So we get a full season of her pining after him.

 

Sigh.

 

I don't see this happening. Amnesia is such a tired old trope, and despite a slow start, the writers have been better than that so far. Also, I don't think that Simmons is in love with Fitz. She loves him as a brother and a best friend, yes, but she did not kiss him on the lips and she did not return his (implied) declaration of romantic love. Also, from an interview with Jed and Maurissa:

 

JW: When they initially auditioned, there were a lot of funny scenes, and when we wrote the emotional scene it was just to make sure they had the ability to pull it off, and both of them broke our heart when they auditioned. They have this brother–sister inseparable feeling between them, but we wanted to evolve Fitz past that and have him break your heart in a different way. We shot those scenes very quickly and they just absolutely nailed it.

 

So should fans take heart in the fact there was so much kissing during their good-bye?

 

MT: Um…

JW: Well, we know how he feels. But we’re not positive how he made it through — or how far he made it through. There are still some questions to be answered there.

[Llywela]

I was irritated - very much - by Fitz's reaction to being stuck on the ocean floor being "We're going to die, so let's just cry and wait for death." That has been his personality for most of the season - a defeatist. You would expect a tech geek to be tearing open every  container in the pod to find something that would get them out. And he still couldn't openly confess his feelings for Simmons. Use your words, dammit.

The "only one of us can survive" option felt very contrived.

Except that that wasn't how Fitz reacted to being stuck on the ocean floor. He didn't just cry and wait for death. He jerry-rigged a defibrillator to send out a distress signal and then devised a means of escaping from the pod - he did everything you just said that he should. Maybe the 'only one can survive' option was a little contrived, but that contrivance was built-into the scene by making it clear that Fitz had already done absolutely everything he could with the material to hand.

 I also hope they keep Triplett because the show needs more diversity and his character is made of win.

A few people have said this. Characters do not belong in a story just for diversity. Casting of characters can and should be carried out with an eye to diversity, but the character has to serve a purpose within the structure of the story. Triplett's purpose within the story structure stems from the removal of Ward, but he isn't a straight replacement because he's already a far more engaging character than Ward ever was (also much easier on the eye - Ward never did it for me, but Trip is yum), and because he's still new there's loads of room for development as we get to know him better outside of the ongoing emergency of recent weeks.

[HistoryGirl]

I was irritated - very much - by Fitz's reaction to being stuck on the ocean floor being "We're going to die, so let's just cry and wait for death." That has been his personality for most of the season - a defeatist. You would expect a tech geek to be tearing open every  container in the pod to find something that would get them out. And he still couldn't openly confess his feelings for Simmons. Use your words, dammit.

The "only one of us can survive" option felt very contrived.

 

As Llywela mentioned above, Fitz did try to figure out a way out of the pod.  When Simmons first awoke he tells her that in the time that she was knocked out, he tore apart the pod looking for something to help them and came up empty (exception being the SHIELD signal thing that Fury found them with).  He mentions that he watched as they sunk to the bottom and did the math based on their rate of sinking to figure out how deep they were and how much pressure was put against the pod.  He also managed to sling him arm up too. I'd say he did a lot to try and figure out a way out and that his defeatist attitude was deserving since he had come up empty.  

 

In the end it was Simmons' understanding of chemistry that put the final piece of the puzzle together to figure out their escape. 

 

What I'm unclear about is why Fitz was deprived of oxygen for so long (when clearly he really wasn't) and why they put Simmons in the decompression chamber.  Is this science-fu? or real science? 

[millahnna]

I didn't like the final scene with Coulson sleep drawing - if the alien blood was going to do something weird to him, shouldn't that have already happened? It was almost instantaneous with Garrett.

 

Well Coulson had the mind wipe thing whereas Garrett didn't.  So delayed reaction?  Maybe it even started strictly because of Coulson now being aware of what he'd forgotten (might be too much, just throwing it out there).  I'm still curious to see what effect  Skye's 084-ness has on the process.  I'm kind of surprised Coulson didn't bring it up when he saw the tape of himself saying that the mind wipe was necessary.  But they did have a lot going on, so no biggie. 

[tricksterson]

Coulson's delay can also be explained by the Centipede formula giving it a boost in Garrett.

 

Loved the Ward/May freeforall, the Coulson/Fury dynamic and the way they were snarking during Garrett's villain rant, also how Coulson casually disposed of Garrett.  his comment and that he was there just in time make me think that they were monitoring Garrett's coffin.

 

Koenig has to be an LMD.  His speech was too much like the first ones.

 

Am guessing Fitz is in a coma. Fury told Simmons he was barely breathing and when Skye asked her how he was she just said that "He's alive".  Am guessing that maybe his actor has other work so will have a minimal presence in the early episodes?

 

Given the likelihood that Big Blue was a Kree I'm guessing that Skye's dad is either a Kree or Skrull.  Likewise the equations.

 

The following are all pure spec:  The equations that were being worked on in Belarus are one half of something and what Garrett and Coulson were working on is the other half

 

Ward won't be redeemed, rather he'll take Skye's speech to heart, escape prison and set out to become a true badass villain.

 

Raina is Skye's half sister.

[shapeshifter]

Raina is Skye's half sister.

Is this comic canon? I had suggested upthread that they were sisters, but I'm not knowledgable about Marvel Universe. Or are we just reaching similar conclusions based on what we've seen?

[Taeolas]

Neither Skye nor Raina (nor May, Fitz, Ward or Simmons or Tripp) are in the Comics yet. AFAIK, only Coulson is in the books now. So everything you assume or guess about these guys comes just from the show. :)

[KirkB]

Even if the MCU does want to start tapping into the cosmic with GotG, how much can the show really do? What would be the point of really introducing the Kree or the Skruil if you can't really do a full scale war or anything TOO big? The show couldn't afford it first of all, and even if they could Marvel/Disney probably wants to save the big, really cool stuff for the movies.

 

That said, I'm guessing Skye (and probably Raina) are related to the Inhumans. All things considered they give a taste of the more cosmic side of the MCU while most of the people look conveniently human. Also, unlike the Kree and the Skrull they don't have vast numbers or cosmic homes (unless they're on the moon), though I'd feel a little bad for the guy cast to play Black Bolt, since it would obviously be a non-speaking part.

[gik910]

 

I didn't like the final scene with Coulson sleep drawing - if the alien blood was going to do something weird to him, shouldn't that have already happened? It was almost instantaneous with Garrett.

Well Coulson had the mind wipe thing whereas Garrett didn't.  So delayed reaction? 

 

Didn't Garrett have a manufactured serum that Raina reverse bioengineered? I think she even said was missing a thing or 2 but should work.  

Edited May 15, 2014 by gik910

[Taeolas]

Even if the MCU does want to start tapping into the cosmic with GotG, how much can the show really do? What would be the point of really introducing the Kree or the Skruil if you can't really do a full scale war or anything TOO big? The show couldn't afford it first of all, and even if they could Marvel/Disney probably wants to save the big, really cool stuff for the movies.

 

That said, I'm guessing Skye (and probably Raina) are related to the Inhumans. All things considered they give a taste of the more cosmic side of the MCU while most of the people look conveniently human. Also, unlike the Kree and the Skrull they don't have vast numbers or cosmic homes (unless they're on the moon), though I'd feel a little bad for the guy cast to play Black Bolt, since it would obviously be a non-speaking part.

 

Thing is, the Inhumans started with the Fantastic Four and have always had really close ties to them. So they are probably as hands off as the Skrulls as far as the Movie-verse goes; both locked in the Fox Box. 

[Jack Kerouac]

I also hope they keep Triplett because the show needs more diversity and his character is made of win.

 

See, I don't get this. Beyond just having a non-white character for just having one, the team is already pretty diverse. With Ward gone, the only white people on the team are Colson and FitzSimmons. May is Asian and Skye is half Asian. That's 40% of the team as non-white.

 

If they are going to keep Triplett (which it doesn't look like they will as a full timer - read the interview), they should play up his legacy role. Grandson of one of the Howling Commandos is something that would be pretty tough to live up to, I would think. Run with that and it might give him some needed drama to his character.

 

I am still, however, placing my money on the team being forced to work with Ward for some reason and Fitz with amnesia. I know the show has gotten better over the past few episodes, but you have to remember; you needed to shut off your brain to like this episode. There hasn't been THAT much improvement. As someone else noted above, why the heck didn't the 'super' soldiers have guns? What bunch of super solders lets a 40-year-old man and one 'good' SHIELD agent steal an armoured car and bust into their supposedly impregnable base? If the place where they were controlling the soldiers from was so important and so integral to their plans, how the heck did May and Skye break in? Where was the security? Why didn't they have, oh I don't know, a couple of guys (or gals) with GUNS guarding it?

 

Some of the stuff in this episode was just silly. How long does it take to swim 90 feet to the surface? While, yes, a quick swim up from 90 feet (from a pressurized container) can give you DCI (or the bends), it would take all of a minute, tops. Considering FitzSimmons left the container seconds after it imploded and Fury was magically waiting for them AS SOON AS THEY HIT THE SURFACE (ugh!), the time Fitz spent without oxygen was minimal. There is a very low probabilty he suffered any brain damage at all.

 

This is all just to say that while I found the episode entertaining, it was still chock full of nonsense (how the heck did Fury get to the spot EXACTLY where Colson was punched in almost no time at all after rescuing FitzSimmons?). So, AMNESIA and forced partnership! I'm calling it today!

Edited May 15, 2014 by Jack Kerouac

[Monty]

What I'm unclear about is why Fitz was deprived of oxygen for so long (when clearly he really wasn't) and why they put Simmons in the decompression chamber.  Is this science-fu? or real science? 

The decompression chamber would have been because of the bends. When you go from deep underwater to the surface quickly, you get crippling nitrogen bubbles in your blood.

 

...although Simmons was only under pressure really briefly, so I don't think she would really have gotten the bends. From what I understand, it happens when your body has adjusted to the heavy underwater pressure and then goes to sea level. She didn't have time to adjust.

[Jack Kerouac]

The decompression chamber would have been because of the bends. When you go from deep underwater to the surface quickly, you get crippling nitrogen bubbles in your blood.

 

...although Simmons was only under pressure really briefly, so I don't think she would really have gotten the bends. From what I understand, it happens when your body has adjusted to the heavy underwater pressure and then goes to sea level. She didn't have time to adjust.

 

It's mostly dependent on how deep your were (under pressure), how long and how fast you get to the surface. It is conceivable she could have a minor case of DCI (Decompression Sickness or Decompression Illness), but they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. If she swam to the surface so fast, why was Fitz deprived of oxygen so long? And if Fitz was under water for too long because it took Simmons so long to swim to the surface, why did she need to go into a chamber?

[Taeolas]

Assumably, when they blew the window, they were hit with the blast of water and lost their air. Fitz was probably knocked unconscious from pain and the blow nearly immediately and/or would have breathed in water at that point. Simmons had to grab him, get him out (a few seconds after the implosion) and haul him 90ft to the surface as fast as she could (limited air and worry about Fitz, she'd not waste time). Then Fury's rescue team had to find her (about a minute or so after she surfaced), get into the water and get him into the chopper, clear the water from his lungs and get fresh air into him. While I'm sure they were quick, that is a long time to go without oxygen. Probably 5-10 minutes at least, if not more.  

 

The Decomp chamber was probably precautionary as much as necessary, and it was an excuse (in show and in universe) to keep her from looking for Fitz and/or demanding to go with Fury to help with the rescue/takedown. (not that she's likely to do the later)

[Kromm]

Any ending that gave us back a version of Agent Patton Oswalt is okay with me.  It was very interesting that they didn't have him state he was a twin.  There might be a reason for that.

 

Clearly the number of epilogues we were given was to give us a lot of food for thought.

1.) Deathlok on the Loose I think is not something they'll push too much next season. I expect maybe one guest shot and that's it.  I think all they basically did was set him loose on the MCU in general, but this isn't his story.

2.)  Fury handing over the keys to SHIELD won't matter in the least if Coulson is back out again by the time Avengers 2 rolls around (which may duck the whole issue by dealing with SWORD anyway).

3.)  The bit with Deathlok Garrett and his ultimate fate was kind of hilarious (I don't think we were even supposed to ask where those machines came from and why they were Deathlockcizing him in the first place--I guess we're supposed to conclude that Coulson was simply using that to get revenge).  

4.) I'd like to think we'll actually get to see Patton next season instead of this just being another bit of humor, and that if it's not as simple as a twin that there's something fun to dig on there, like an LMD.

5.) Then the bit with the Slimey SkyeDaddy is clearly the main tease for next season.

6.) The stuff with Coulson continuing what Garrett started is supposed to plant a seed of doubt in us, but of course another interpretation could simply be that the knowledge itself (clearly something alieny-spacey--I'd guess it's a Kree Star Chart or something like that) isn't bad... just the use of it in the hands of a wacko.

 

Aside from all that, there's the absence of Ward in those epilogues.  Unlike Deathlok he wasn't given a real redemption ending.  And yet I still fear it's coming in Stealth Mode.  Either than or when he inevitably escapes he hooks back up with Raina and now also SkyeDaddy, for some icky story arc.

 

I'd actually been thinking High Evolutionary for a while with where Raina was coming from, but SkyeDaddy doesn't have the look from the little we saw.

Here's my prediction for Season 2:

 

The team is 'forced' to work with Ward for some ridiculously contrived reason. Also, Fitz's lack of brain oxygen leaves him with AMNESIA right as Simmons realizes she loves him. So we get a full season of her pining after him.

 

Sigh.

It's funny, because my first thought was Fitz in a floating wheel chair, perhaps forcing him into the Crippled Genius stereotype (brain damage causing a loss of motor functions, in this case).

Patton Oswalt not only lives, he says exactly the same lines as last time. At first I assumed he was a clone, but then I thought he might be a robot. Except that the last Patton got killed, so he must have been organic.

LMDs are, I believe, organic enough to fool most people, even in death (it's kind of the whole point of them, actually).

 

Not an exact version but here's his Marvel connection

They just reused the name.  He's not the same character.

[Monty]

SkyeDaddy

Solid.

 

(Makes a note)

[kitlee625]

Assumably, when they blew the window, they were hit with the blast of water and lost their air. Fitz was probably knocked unconscious from pain and the blow nearly immediately and/or would have breathed in water at that point. Simmons had to grab him, get him out (a few seconds after the implosion) and haul him 90ft to the surface as fast as she could (limited air and worry about Fitz, she'd not waste time). Then Fury's rescue team had to find her (about a minute or so after she surfaced), get into the water and get him into the chopper, clear the water from his lungs and get fresh air into him. While I'm sure they were quick, that is a long time to go without oxygen. Probably 5-10 minutes at least, if not more.  

 

The Decomp chamber was probably precautionary as much as necessary, and it was an excuse (in show and in universe) to keep her from looking for Fitz and/or demanding to go with Fury to help with the rescue/takedown. (not that she's likely to do the later)

 

Yes, I don't know a ton about drowning injuries (I'm a doctor but not an ER doctor), but when the water came rushing in Fitz probably was knocked unconscious and aspirated water deep into his lungs. Remember that Simmons had that oxygen mask to deliver a pressurized burst of oxygen to fill her lungs after they blew the hatch. Once Fitz had aspirated the water, he would be unable to breath until they probably hooked him up to a ventilator and suctioned the fluid out.

[Darth Nigel]

I liked this episode.  A pretty good season finale, but considering that I'd given up on the show earlier, and the last few episodes brought me back, it was way better than I expected. Two minor disappointments:

 - I wish that after he zorched Garrett, Phil had said "Game over, man, game over" rather than whatever the throwaway line was.

 - more seriously, May should just have shot Ward in the back of the head (perhaps more than once) rather than the brawl.

 

But I'm ready to watch next season... if only to find out why Coulson is writing modern Gallifreyan :)

[telane]

I'm probably the only one, but I seriously HATED the May/Ward fight scene. I mean I get it that she's pissed. I understand her motivation. And he was an awful humanbeing in this episode (I mean the things he said to Skye and May were cringeworthy) and maybe he deserved it, I don't know. Although, does anyone?

I also know that neither May, nor Skye, and not even Coulson know the full extent of what was done to Ward, but... He's a f*ing ABUSE VICTIM. He was beaten as a kid, by his closest family members, forced to beat up the youngest of the family, he was mindf*ed by Garrett, to the point of having Stockholm Syndrome, we saw with our own eyes that he was raped by another mindf*er.

 

And here they go and abuse him some more.

 

Skye's speech I get. She's very young and she really has no idea what he'd been through before he turned to be this pathetic not-even-evil guy. May... Well, she's been personally hurt, but no one can say that their sex was not consensual. Anyway, that's beside the point. May has a lot of rage issues, even without the Berserker staff, so I kind of can forgive her. To a degree. I hated her satisfaction at "I may have fractured his larynx". She took away his voice for crying out loud. And then Coulson. The good guy. The guy praised in the next scene by Fury himself for being "the heart of SHIELD", the upholder of Shield's pure principle of protecting people, of each person being worth saving. This nice and pure and righteous man responds to May's wrecking up a victim of life-long abuse with "Oh, good."

 

You know, someone here said, that they wouldn't "want to meet the folks who DO forgive Ward in a dark alley". I wouldn't want to meet anyone who felt satisfaction looking at Ward being shattered, at his voice being taken away from him, in a brightly lit ballroom.

 

BTW, I do not forgive Ward for what he did. What I do, is UNDERSTAND him. I may be willing to forgive, time will tell what they will do with his character.

 

I had lots of doubts if I should speak up about it at all, because I'm clearly looking at it too emotionally, but the more I read about how awesome May was, the more I want to scream at my computer screen. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by telane

[jhlipton]

telane, I can see this being an issue for someone who was abused (I'm not stating or implying that you were).  But does Ward bear NO responsibility for his actions?  He's murdered people with no regrets, no remorse.  I'd say Ward was due a major ass-whipping despite his horrible childhood (and that's without getting into discussions of real-world abuse).  

 

I'm glad you decided to speak up, but I respectfully disagree.

[Jack Kerouac]

He's a f*ing ABUSE VICTIM. He was beaten as a kid, by his closest family members, forced to beat up the youngest of the family, he was mindf*ed by Garrett, to the point of having Stockholm Syndrome, we saw with our own eyes that he was raped by another mindf*er.

 

And here they go and abuse him some more.

 

Skye's speech I get. She's very young and she really has no idea what he'd been through before he turned to be this pathetic not-even-evil guy. May... Well, she's been personally hurt, but no one can say that their sex was not consensual. Anyway, that's beside the point. May has a lot of rage issues, even without the Berserker staff, so I kind of can forgive her. To a degree. I hated her satisfaction at "I may have fractured his larynx". She took away his voice for crying out loud. And then Coulson. The good guy. The guy praised in the next scene by Fury himself for being "the heart of SHIELD", the upholder of Shield's pure principle of protecting people, of each person being worth saving. This nice and pure and righteous man responds to May's wrecking up a victim of life-long abuse with "Oh, good."

Ward's a multiple murderer. I'm sure the imaginary families of the SHIELD agents he killed could care less about his sob story. The fact that May bruised his larynix should be counted as a blessing considering she should have put two bullets into his skull.

Of course, that would have ruined next season where Ward gets redeemed, so we can't have that.

[telane]

I never said he shouldn't be punished what what he did.

 

What I said is that I hate how the "good guys" are so smug about adding some more abuse to the already huge pile.

 

But I guess that's my issue with "rape culture" in general. Fight fire with fire. Someone hits you, hit him twice more. A character in a tv show kills fan-favorite -- he deserves to be killed by another "good" character. I believe there should be other ways to punish Ward for his crimes than messing him up. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by telane

[Jack Kerouac]

I never said he shouldn't be punished what what he did.

What I said is that I hate how the "good guys" are so smug about adding some more abuse to the already huge pile.

Rape culture, yo!

Uhm, what? Rape culture what?

From the perspectives of these people Ward has betrayed them, murdered or almost murdered their friends and committed a dozen other atrocities and everyone should upset or sombre that someone gave Ward a non-fatal wound to the throat?

Give me a beak. If I was that team, I would be laughing my ASS off at Ward. That's not BS rape culture; from their perfective it's justice. They're not laughing at a lynching; they're expressing smugness that a murderer and rape threatener has been brought to justice.

And remember, these people don't KNOW what Ward has been through.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Jack Kerouac

[Watcher0363]

Ward's a multiple murderer. I'm sure the imaginary families of the SHIELD agents he killed could care less about his sob story. The fact that May bruised his larynix should be counted as a blessing considering she should have put two bullets into his skull.

Of course, that would have ruined next season where Ward gets redeemed, so we can't have that.

That was my take on the fight also. With a little feminist revenge fantasy porn thrown in for the ladies.

Having said that, I was amazed at how loyal Garrett was to Ward. He kept telling him you can have anything you want. But Ward like everyone else thought Garrett was going mad. I could see Ward not seeing that Garrett had reached some type of transcendent intelligence. However there is no excuse for the gravitonium creator not to see that Garrett was now operating on a different level of intelligence.

Also did anyone else find it funny that Coulson went into battle wearing a perfectly pressed shirt and a perfectly worn tie. That made Fury's comment about how he was dressed even funnier.

[telane]

from their perfective it's justice. 

(...)

And remember, these people don't KNOW what Ward has been through.

 

Do not mistake justice with vigilance. What they do is vigilance.*

And I remember. I wrote that in my initial post.

 

BTW, justice means taking all evidence into consideration, no just the account of the righteous side.

 

)*  Granted, the fight was partially in defense of Skye and partially out of need of revenge by May, so the term "vigilance" isn't entirely correct here. But neither is "justice". Not yet. I bet he will be punished. Trialed, sentenced and punished, but by someone who, hopefully, doesn't have emotional connection to the whole situation.

Edited May 15, 2014 by telane

[myril]

I get that one can feel empathy for the kid Ward once was, the victim of abuse. But whatever he has been through as kid and what Lorely recently did to him, Ward wasn't brainwashed, he had no implant threatening to be exploded if not following orders, he could have said no to Garrett in prison and face trail - Ward had choices, and he made wrong and evil chocies. What happened to him as child explains, why he sees himself as survivor and is pretty much indifferent to people, but that is it. Ward's feelings for Skye are in my view more an unhealthy obsession, that has not much to do with empathy or love. He might think he loves her, but he is miles away from doing so. The only reason I don't call Ward a psychopath right away is because of the childhood trauma background story they gave him.

 

Ward doesn't have Stockholm syndrom, he was never a hostage. Garrett didn't kidnapp Ward, he gave him a choice to stay in prison and face trial or leave with him for big adventure - and Ward made his choice. Garrett dropped him in the wilderness to assess if Ward was the survivor ready to do anything he thought he was, and was proven pretty much right. Didn't see brainwashing happening, but a manipulator making use of some issues and traits of Ward. No, I am not saying that it would have been any easy for Ward to go a different way, but he had choices.

 

Ward was abused in this episode? He had a gun, he is a trained assessin and close combat fighter, he would have killed May if he could to get Skye. And he sure gave her some bruises as well. Ward betrayed them all, and for May it was not about them having been co-workers with benefits, it was that Ward worked for/with HYDRA, an organisation standing against what May believes in. It was about Ward's betrayal, which was especially bitter in his case, because they trusted him personally and not just as some other SHIELD agent, as Skye put it so well, Ward betrayed the people "who gave (him) a chance at being a decent human being."

 

Sorry, what does the abuse he suffered as kid has to do with him trying to kidnap Skye and his willingness to kill May? What does the abuse he suffered has to do with the betrayal he committed? Having a glimpse of what Ward went through as kid might create a feeling of sympathy in general for the character (in my case a faint one though seeing he had years to change and turn away from Garrett), but it doesn't make me feel any bad for Ward, nor do I see any reason why it should, when he gets beaten up in combat, and doesn't make me question that the others have the right to feel angry and hurt, and express it and are not rushing to give him a second chance right away. Ward had choices, he made bad ones, he betrayed Coulson, Skye, May, Simmons, Fitz, and exception Skye, he didn't seem to mind much to kill them. No, I am not cheering for Ward being beaten up either, I wouldn't even cheer for Garrett being blown up, but I don't feel pity for Ward in this moment.

 

And that people cheer for May has partially something to do with media representation and societal images of women, and somehow women still are not shown as much as fighting back, making their own stand, kicking the butt of anyone who wronged them, and are a lot more expected to play along nice and keep smiling if wronged than we expect men to do. It is as much or even more about May than about Ward.

Edited May 15, 2014 by katusch

[Kromm]

I think there's a hope, an expectation, that our heroes will be "better" than our villains.  But at the same time viewers also want to see villains "get theirs".  At least in popular fiction, sometimes both of those things can't always co-exist, so one of them has to "give" a bit.  It ain't pretty, but it is what it is sometimes when a show has an agenda to leave it's viewers actively cheering about something rather than having murky lukewarm resolutions.

 

What I'm a bit puzzled about is why the outrage is reserved for May injuring but not killing Ward, whereas what we basically saw Coulson do was both more permanent and let's admit... cruel.  Let go for a second that Garrett was a sicko murderer.  How?  Well with whatever mechanism is being used to do the same for Ward.  Just because we've been TOLD Ward's sob story doesn't mean that he's the only one who has one.  Anyway, I think it's clear Garrett's body couldn't just ACCIDENTALLY fall into a Deathlok Making Machine.  So basically Coulson allowed Garrett to be (rather painfully it seems) rebuilt, have his little muhahaha moment, then cold blooded killed him and smirked about it.

 

Now for those reading this who think I'm seriously upset about this?  Please... no, I'm not.  I'm just saying the only difference between Ward and Garrett is that we've been told Ward's side of things a tiny bit.  No wait. there is one other thing.  Frankly Skye is right.  A pathetic follower IS worse.  But if the point, the objection, is about the heroes not "being better", why the upset for the pretty boy who got temporarily inconvenienced and locked up and not for the less pretty older guy who got tortured via Deathlokization and then murdered?

 

ETA:  I do understand that we got to know Ward better than Garrett, but that's part of my point as well--we also got to know the people he killed and betrayed better too (more on that in my response below).

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kromm

[telane]

Katush, I get your points. In this case, I guess, it's a matter of interpretation of some small clues that I see differently than you do. Like the Stochkolm Syndrome thing, for example. It doesn't only pertain to people in hostage situations, but those in a long-term abusive relationships with psychopaths and narcissists as well.

Other than that, YMMV.

 

Kromm, why for a pretty boy? Because I got to know him over the course of the season and I identify with him. And I'm fitzing here, to put it plain and simple. Should I be ridiculed for expressing my opinion?

 

Oh, and I'm apparently strange, because I don't feel this need for villians to "get theirs", never did. Actually, I am upset about Garrett a little bit too. I don't know what kind of a person he was before 1990. I guess if I knew he was a nice guy back then, and besties with Coulson, I would be more inclined to understand him as well and be irked by Coulson being all *smirky* about disintegrating him. But that's a bit longer stretch of interpretation, so I'm not doing that.

Edited May 15, 2014 by telane

[Kromm]

Kromm, why for a pretty boy? Because I got to know him over the course of the season and I identify with him. And I'm fitzing here, to put it plain and simple. Should I be ridiculed for expressing my opinion?

No, I meant the question seriously, not facetiously.  If the use of "pretty boy" made it seem facetious, I apologize.  The serious point under there is there's logic that we got to know Ward and thus feel for him, didn't we also get to know Hand and Patton Oswalt's first character, who Ward cold bloodedly murdered, and Fitz, who he's likely crippled or handicapped and put into a coma, and Simmons, who also could have died by Ward's actions?  I'm a bit caught here, because I felt I had to point out what seemed like a double standard to me (in relation to what happened to Ward vs. Garrett), but if I did so in a way that implied you have no right to feel that way, again I apologize.  

 

I don't see May's fight with Ward as any great injustice because the revenge fantasy aspect of it is relatively petty compared to what was done to Garrett.  Also what May did wasn't planned.  If the objection is to the writing of the scene, sure, that's a valid point, but it's also running up against the real expectation that many viewers do have for a finale to rev things up--I understand not personally feeling any need for villains to "get theirs", but I do think it's a fair observation to say that a big percentage of viewers appear to expect to see that stuff, so it's not surprising the show has it.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Kromm

[Llywela]

I thought Garrett put himself into the Deathlok machine - we saw a corpse sprawled on the floor, presumably whoever was in the room when he broke out of his coffin, and we saw him dragging himself up onto the table. No one did that to him. He did it to himself.

[shrewd.buddha]

While Simmons was still unconscious, he went through everything.  Even rigged up a signalling device from a medical scanner or something.  He was only defeatist after he thought he'd thought of every possibility.

 

Yes, but those are not the scenes they chose to show us. We have to fanwank the extent of his resourcefulness and can-do attitude.

For the most part, all I can recall are misty-eyed scenes of getting a sandwich packed for him as he went on his first big-boy mission. Scared to open the hatch door when May had a gun on him until Coulson ordered him to do so. Whining about things 'changing' when Simmons and Trip started their eye-flirting, instead of speaking up. And his almost teary defense of Ward because he found denial more comforting. It seems as if Simmons is always having sort him out or mommy him.

So the PTB may be attempting to portray Fitz as naive, but it's coming off as wimpy to me. It could just be me. I'd rather him be more can-do and kick-ass. But maybe that's not the character they want in the mix. And maybe they don't want that character around anymore.. No one was standing by his bedside at the end of the episode the way they did for Skye-flake a while back.

 

And I agree that the show is portraying Ward as victim of child soldier indoctrination. ...But I am not sure this is the type of show that can handle that type of complicated tragedy without royally screwing it up. They are better off sticking to more black and white versions of good and evil and leaving the other stuff to L&O:SVU. 

Ward has killed a lot of people now. If someone gunned down your loved ones, I don't think your first instinct would be to contemplate the murderer's possibly tragic backstory..

Edited May 15, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[Llywela]

Not every character needs to be bold, outspoken, confident and willing/able to kick ass at a moment's notice. And TV would be boring if they were. Variety is the spice of life, and all that. None of the examples you mention actually happened in this episode. What we saw in this episode was Fitz dashing about the pod finishing off the gizmo he'd rigged up, explaining how it worked - being upset, yes, because he thought he was about to die - and then hitting the button to break the window. None of which is what you accused him of, which was just sitting around crying while waiting to die.

[Mz Anthrope]

A few of my own thoughts

 

Yes, as a child, Ward was innocent.  And had compassion - minimalized to weakness from Garrett - for those who cared for him.  His dog being our first glimpse of humanity in the face of wretchedness.  Ward had a very long time to change... to decide which side he chose to support.  In this, Skye was absolutely correct.  And all he did to those who were innocent and/*or* working for the side of SHIELD justice, he had a choice for each and every action.  And even the person who chooses to do wrong because they are afraid of what will happen to him (I have no doubt Garrett would have ended Ward's life if Ward had changed from doing Garrett's bidding), he still chose to save his own life instead of doing what he thought was right. 

 

I believe he was showing signs of WTF when he was questioning Garrett - 'is he mad?  has he lost it?'.  It wasn't until Ward spoke with Raina that his conviction to get what he wanted came to the fore.  And earlier, Raina was questioning, until Garrett told her 'her destiny'.  There was something that Garrett said to both of them that brought them back to whatever selfish, twisted path that they ultimately chose.  But that's the thing - they chose it. 

 

Ward had all the opportunity to allow himself to find his own better path.  Yes, he was working on orders, and it seems that all his life, that's what he made his decisions/actions on.  However, he also had 'orders' from SHIELD, and chose to follow Garrett.  And for all that, I can lay the choices Ward made at his own feet.  He did have an abundance of chances. 

 

And I think what was illustrated in the differences between Garrett and Coulson was that they both had the same opportunities, temptations, and humanness to their decisions... but one inherently thought of only themselves and their own greater good and the other had a larger 'greater good' at heart.  Each has taken down others to achieve that goal.  Each has done much of that using manipulation, secrecy, and the common shared goals of those around them.  The difference comes down to, ultimately (imo), what was the impetus within their own hearts.  

 

And each person has those choices constantly, and will make those choices which are in line with their own makeup.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Mz Anthrope

[JC65]

I liked the episode, but it sure seemed like they could have spread the action out over 3-4 episodes and made the series better as a whole rather than having a relatively boring string of episodes leading up to an overflowing finale.

 

The worst part of the episode, in my opinion, was Sam Jackson as Fury.  I dislike Sam Jackson whenever he plays Sam Jackson (which is pretty much 95% of all movies he's ever done) and I dislike the fact that Marvel wrote him into their Ultimates universe from the very start.  He brought my overall enjoyment of the episode down.  Sure I knew he'd be doing cameos as Fury going in, but I still don't like it.

[shrewd.buddha]

My point with Fitz's character is that it seems, to me, that TPTB seem to be dumping on him. He certainly isn't getting the propping up that Skye gets on a weekly basis. 
He has been friend-zoned, and appears to be used as a prop for Simmons. His actions are talked about instead of shown. And mainly - he got no face time for the last half of the show - he was only referenced. When the new team assembled at the end of the episode, it felt as if the original plan had been to kill Fitz off, but they softened it into him being in off-camera coma-land, with no definite plans for reappearing.

Edited May 15, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[AlecSphere]

Here is Patton Oswalt's connection to the Marvel universe:


If anyone wants to play the speculation game, I thought this article was really well researched: http://screenrant.com/agents-of-shield-finale-explained/

[Sarahastro]

But I guess that's my issue with "rape culture" in general.

 

Are you trying to say that Ward is a victim of rape culture? Because he threatened to kidnap and rape Skye, and he made sexual threats against May. If someone threatens to rape me, I am not going to ask, "Are you an abuse victim? Because if you are, I wouldn't want to compound your abuse." The fact that Ward is a victim does not give him the right to victimize other people. Frankly, I think it is ridiculous to say that May was too hard on him. If he had murdered her, would you be saying that he deserved sympathy because of his past abuse? Why does Ward deserve sympathy for killing all of those agents whereas May deserves none for sparing Ward's life?

Edited May 15, 2014 by Sarahastro

[Capricasix]

The gun that Fury gives Coulson is the same type that Coulson used in Avengers - that is, until he got shanked by the Asgardian Mussolini.

I love Patton Oswalt, even though when I hear his voice, I can't help but think of Remy in Ratatouille :D

[ChelseaNH]

He has been friend-zoned

 

There's an interview with some showrunners (I've read 3-4 so I'm not sure which) where they talked about the great sibling chemistry betwen Fitz and Simmons, but they made a decision to have Fitz change.  It's completely arbitrary and I think it was a mistake.  "Let's take this great asset and mess it up completely!"

[Jack Kerouac]

Are you trying to say that Ward is a victim of rape culture? Because he threatened to kidnap and rape Skye, and he made sexual threats against May. If someone threatens to rape me, I am not going to ask, "Are you an abuse victim? Because if you are, I wouldn't want to compound your abuse." The fact that Ward is a victim does not give him the right to victimize other people. Frankly, I think it is ridiculous to say that May was too hard on him. If he had murdered her, would you be saying that he deserved to be punished, or would you say that it was understandable because of his past abuse? Why does Ward deserve sympathy for killing all of those agents whereas May deserves none for sparing Ward's life?

 

Thank you. Very well put.

 

Now on to something less confrontational. Do you think the writers are going to go with the trope of Simmons falling in love with Fitz only AFTER Fitz has moved on from loving her?

 

For example, Fitz is 'Hollywood handicapped' (nothing too unsightly or permanent) next season. By the time he wakes up from his coma or slightly after, Simmons is jumping Triplett or someone else (May?). Skype, or someone else (Coulson?) helps Fitz with recovery and they start jumping all over each other. It is at that point where Simmons realizes she loves Fitz, blah, blah, blah ... fishcakes.

 

Or will they remain Just Friends?

[kitlee625]

I'm probably the only one, but I seriously HATED the May/Ward fight scene. I mean I get it that she's pissed. I understand her motivation. And he was an awful humanbeing in this episode (I mean the things he said to Skye and May were cringeworthy) and maybe he deserved it, I don't know. Although, does anyone?

I also know that neither May, nor Skye, and not even Coulson know the full extent of what was done to Ward, but... He's a f*ing ABUSE VICTIM. He was beaten as a kid, by his closest family members, forced to beat up the youngest of the family, he was mindf*ed by Garrett, to the point of having Stockholm Syndrome, we saw with our own eyes that he was raped by another mindf*er.

 

And here they go and abuse him some more.

 

Skye's speech I get. She's very young and she really has no idea what he'd been through before he turned to be this pathetic not-even-evil guy. May... Well, she's been personally hurt, but no one can say that their sex was not consensual. Anyway, that's beside the point. May has a lot of rage issues, even without the Berserker staff, so I kind of can forgive her. To a degree. I hated her satisfaction at "I may have fractured his larynx". She took away his voice for crying out loud. And then Coulson. The good guy. The guy praised in the next scene by Fury himself for being "the heart of SHIELD", the upholder of Shield's pure principle of protecting people, of each person being worth saving. This nice and pure and righteous man responds to May's wrecking up a victim of life-long abuse with "Oh, good."

 

You know, someone here said, that they wouldn't "want to meet the folks who DO forgive Ward in a dark alley". I wouldn't want to meet anyone who felt satisfaction looking at Ward being shattered, at his voice being taken away from him, in a brightly lit ballroom.

 

BTW, I do not forgive Ward for what he did. What I do, is UNDERSTAND him. I may be willing to forgive, time will tell what they will do with his character.

 

I had lots of doubts if I should speak up about it at all, because I'm clearly looking at it too emotionally, but the more I read about how awesome May was, the more I want to scream at my computer screen. 

 

So I think that most of what I want to say has been said, so I will just bring up a couple of points. May is not just "pissed." It is not that he slept with her, and her feelings are hurt. He accuses her of that, and she proceeds to wipe the floor with him. It is that he has been doing terrible things. He was part of a team that a) kidnapped and tortured Coulson, b) kidnapped and turned Mike Peterson, Akeela Amadour, etc etc into weapons, c) kidnapped innocent family members for the incentives program, d) killed Hand, Koenig, and many other loyal S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, e) has been trying to undermine the very thing that she has spent her entire life fighting against. I understand having sympathy, but this is not a revenge attack. This is her trying to protect the world from a dangerous, dangerous man. She does grant him mercy but not killing her. I would argue that he would not have done the same to her, and he certainly did not do the same to the other people he came up against. (I too abhore violence, but this is a comic book TV show. Violence is part of the package.)

 

So if you are suggesting that May should try to talk to him or hug it out while he is holding her head to a buzz saw, just no.

[shrewd.buddha]

I love Patton Oswalt, even though when I hear his voice, I can't help but think of Remy in Ratatouille :D

 

If you like Patton Oswalt and you like Ratatouille, you'll need to check this out: 

Billy shares his love of Ratatouille and his thoughts on Pixar with the voice of Remy the rat himself, Patton Oswalt.

Edited May 15, 2014 by shrewd.buddha

[Sarahastro]

Now on to something less confrontational. Do you think the writers are going to go with the trope of Simmons falling in love with Fitz only AFTER Fitz has moved on from loving her?

 

For example, Fitz is 'Hollywood handicapped' (nothing too unsightly or permanent) next season. By the time he wakes up from his coma or slightly after, Simmons is jumping Triplett or someone else (May?). Skype, or someone else (Coulson?) helps Fitz with recovery and they start jumping all over each other. It is at that point where Simmons realizes she loves Fitz, blah, blah, blah ... fishcakes.

 

Or will they remain Just Friends?

 

So although I really liked the scenes with Fitz and Simmons, and I think the actors did a great job with a very emotional scene, I am not thrilled that the writers have decided to turn FitzSimmons' relationship into a case of unrequited love for exactly the reasons you spell out above. I have a lot of male friends. There have been times when I've had feelings for those friends that they did not reciprocate. (Yes, sometimes ladies get friend-zoned.) We've stayed friends. It is not a big deal. But TV and movies always blow this kind of thing into this ridiculous will-they-won't-they scenario.

 

Then again, they teased the May/Ward/Skye love triangle, but we didn't have to deal with a lot of pining and jealousy, so maybe the writers will figure out a way to deal with the FitzSimmons' relationship in a non-cliched way.

[Capricasix]

If you like Patton Oswalt and you like Ratatouille, you'll need to check this out: 

YES! I agree with Billy (however, I liked Finding Nemo, too!).

[telane]

Okay. Let me make some things clear.

 

1. I DO NOT think that Grant Ward should be absolved of his sins.

 

2. I DO NOT believe that being abused justifies becoming an abuser.

 

But.

 

I don't think Grant Ward ever had a choice, or a chance to be good. Just sayin', that's my interpretation, you're allowed to have your own.

 

And. There's that catchphrase functioning in society: "Giving a voice to victims of abuse". Here, we had the opposite and May was proud of it, and Coulson patted her on the back for it. This scene was symbolic and not in a good way. <-- That is what I refer to with "rape culture".

Edited May 15, 2014 by telane

[kitlee625]

Okay. Let me make some things clear.

 

1. I DO NOT think that Grant Ward should be absolved of his sins.

 

2. I DO NOT believe that being abused justifies becoming an abuser.

 

But.

 

I don't think Grant Ward ever had a choice, or a chance to be good. Just sayin', that's my interpretation, you're allowed to have your own.

 

And. There's that catchphrase functioning in society: "Giving a voice to victims of abuse". Here, we had the opposite and May was proud of it, and Coulson patted her on the back for it. This scene was symbolic and not in a good way. <-- That is what I refer to with "rape culture".

So that is an interesting point, and I do agree that it is an odd choice for the writers to write that May literally takes away Ward's voice. But let's think about what the writers are trying to say rather than blaming the characters or wondering why they would do such a thing.

 

Are the writers saying that Ward is being victimized by May and Coulson because he is unable to explain why he did what he did? I would argue no. The scene plays off as a win for Team S.H.I.E.L.D., which I sense is why it bothers you so much.

 

I think what it is saying is that Ward's excuses don't matter. Given everything that he's done, there is nothing that he can say that will make them say "oh my god I'm so sorry, it wasn't your fault." What Coulson does say is that he knows that Ward did it because he has devoted his life to Garrett and that Ward has a chance now to think about who he is now without Garrett. Again, I think that's honestly a fair chance after everything that has gone down.

 

I can understand that you are frustrated with how the scene plays out. But honestly this hate towards the characters (May and Coulson) annoys me because they aren't real. This is about what story the writers are trying to tell. And that is that even though Ward is a victim, he has hurt/killed other people and has to face consequences for his actions. Which in this case is jail, introspection, and interrogation about Hydra secrets to prevent further death and destruction.

Edited May 15, 2014 by kitlee625

[jhlipton]

Llywela:

I thought Garrett put himself into the Deathlok machine - we saw a corpse sprawled on the floor, presumably whoever was in the room when he broke out of his coffin, and we saw him dragging himself up onto the table. No one did that to him. He did it to himself.

 

I think that some may be thinking that Coulson was hoping that Garrett would regenerate and Deathlokilize himself, thereby allowing him the opportunity to blow Garrett up.  Sort of a form of entrapment.

 

 

telane:

I don't think Grant Ward ever had a choice, or a chance to be good.

Before I get into this, when you brought up "rape culture", where you referring to Ward's rape by Lorelei? It's not real clear.

As to whether Ward had a choice, child abuse is a terrible thing, and while I haven't experienced it, I know too many people who have suffered abuse in the Real World (and one is too many).  All of them have "scars" from the abuse but they refuse to let the abuse define them. 

 

So as bad as Ward's abuse was, as bad as his "scars" are, he still has a choice.  To deny him that choice is to diminish him further.