telane

Okay. Let me make some things clear. 1. I DO NOT think that Grant Ward should be absolved of his sins. 2. I DO NOT believe that being abused justifies becoming an abuser. But. I don't think Grant Ward ever had a choice, or a chance to be good. Just sayin', that's my interpretation, you're allowed to have your own. And. There's that catchphrase functioning in society: "Giving a voice to victims of abuse". Here, we had the opposite and May was proud of it, and Coulson patted her on the back for it. This scene was symbolic and not in a good way. <-- That is what I refer to with "rape culture".

Katush, I get your points. In this case, I guess, it's a matter of interpretation of some small clues that I see differently than you do. Like the Stochkolm Syndrome thing, for example. It doesn't only pertain to people in hostage situations, but those in a long-term abusive relationships with psychopaths and narcissists as well. Other than that, YMMV. Kromm, why for a pretty boy? Because I got to know him over the course of the season and I identify with him. And I'm fitzing here, to put it plain and simple. Should I be ridiculed for expressing my opinion? Oh, and I'm apparently strange, because I don't feel this need for villians to "get theirs", never did. Actually, I am upset about Garrett a little bit too. I don't know what kind of a person he was before 1990. I guess if I knew he was a nice guy back then, and besties with Coulson, I would be more inclined to understand him as well and be irked by Coulson being all *smirky* about disintegrating him. But that's a bit longer stretch of interpretation, so I'm not doing that.

Do not mistake justice with vigilance. What they do is vigilance.* And I remember. I wrote that in my initial post. BTW, justice means taking all evidence into consideration, no just the account of the righteous side. )* Granted, the fight was partially in defense of Skye and partially out of need of revenge by May, so the term "vigilance" isn't entirely correct here. But neither is "justice". Not yet. I bet he will be punished. Trialed, sentenced and punished, but by someone who, hopefully, doesn't have emotional connection to the whole situation.

I never said he shouldn't be punished what what he did. What I said is that I hate how the "good guys" are so smug about adding some more abuse to the already huge pile. But I guess that's my issue with "rape culture" in general. Fight fire with fire. Someone hits you, hit him twice more. A character in a tv show kills fan-favorite -- he deserves to be killed by another "good" character. I believe there should be other ways to punish Ward for his crimes than messing him up.

I'm probably the only one, but I seriously HATED the May/Ward fight scene. I mean I get it that she's pissed. I understand her motivation. And he was an awful humanbeing in this episode (I mean the things he said to Skye and May were cringeworthy) and maybe he deserved it, I don't know. Although, does anyone? I also know that neither May, nor Skye, and not even Coulson know the full extent of what was done to Ward, but... He's a f*ing ABUSE VICTIM. He was beaten as a kid, by his closest family members, forced to beat up the youngest of the family, he was mindf*ed by Garrett, to the point of having Stockholm Syndrome, we saw with our own eyes that he was raped by another mindf*er. And here they go and abuse him some more. Skye's speech I get. She's very young and she really has no idea what he'd been through before he turned to be this pathetic not-even-evil guy. May... Well, she's been personally hurt, but no one can say that their sex was not consensual. Anyway, that's beside the point. May has a lot of rage issues, even without the Berserker staff, so I kind of can forgive her. To a degree. I hated her satisfaction at "I may have fractured his larynx". She took away his voice for crying out loud. And then Coulson. The good guy. The guy praised in the next scene by Fury himself for being "the heart of SHIELD", the upholder of Shield's pure principle of protecting people, of each person being worth saving. This nice and pure and righteous man responds to May's wrecking up a victim of life-long abuse with "Oh, good." You know, someone here said, that they wouldn't "want to meet the folks who DO forgive Ward in a dark alley". I wouldn't want to meet anyone who felt satisfaction looking at Ward being shattered, at his voice being taken away from him, in a brightly lit ballroom. BTW, I do not forgive Ward for what he did. What I do, is UNDERSTAND him. I may be willing to forgive, time will tell what they will do with his character. I had lots of doubts if I should speak up about it at all, because I'm clearly looking at it too emotionally, but the more I read about how awesome May was, the more I want to scream at my computer screen.

ITA. Replied in Grant Ward's thread.

From the Ragtag episode thread: Watcher0363, said: Here, I've been trying to find ways to defend Ward, and I didn't notice THAT. Ward did't kill Hand because he wanted to, he killed her because he was pushed into a corner. He had a choice - kill the man he was Stockholm-Syndromed to follow, or refuse to do it and thus blow his cover. Or - third option - he could just blow his cover and then kill the only people who could tell on him. Of course he should have said "no, we are not supposed to do such things." Maybe it was another of those Hand's test? Then this would be the correct answer. But I have to say it, Hand was pretty stupid with her tests. Plus, she was completely unprepared for any of the wrong answers. I mean, what would she do, if Ward really shot Garrett? Would she shake his hand and congratulate him? Would that be the okay thing to do in Marvel Verse? Kill a tied up prisoner? And if not, who would be held responsible for such action, Hand or Ward? I'd like to analyze Hand's point of view in this situation, based on what we saw, not on any speculation. She doesn't know if Ward is one of the good guys or not. But she isn't sure he's a bad guy either. Judging by her nonchalance and lack of precautions, I think she's leaning toward him being on the Shield's side, not Hydra's. So he's her guy, under her command. She further knows that he shot an innocent man not long ago and she knows that he is aware of his mistake. She knows that his SO turned out to be a traitor. IF Ward was really a good guy at this point, that would have messed him up some. He would not be in the right mindset (he isn't anyway, but for different reasons). Hand shouldn't have ever taken him with her. Coulson, as his SO, should have opposed as well. To them, if they really didn't know Ward's allegiances, he was their subordinate who sought unhealthy vengence on the father-figure who'd failed him. They should have kept him separate from Garrett. Instead Coulson, his current leader, gave him his blessing and Hand gave him the weapon. That's not what responsible, trustworthy leaders do. If they wanted to clean up their mess, they shouldn't have tried to use a messed up man under their command to do it. Their actions would only make sense if they knew he was Hydra, but then, they would be prepared to apprehend him the moment he so much as twitched in the wrong direction. Which they didn't. So that means they are bad leaders. Hand was not only stupid, she was also disregarding her subodrinate's skewed mental state. Worse than that, she was trying to use his mental state to her own agenda. Or - if we go the speculation route - it's the tripple agent theory again, which... makes no sense in light of Ward's own actions. One episode to go. I hope there are answers.

@colormeblue, thank you for this post. You said everything I thought, only so much better. Especially this: As for Ward not showing remorse, well, I don't see how he could with his current mindset (although as I mentioned earlier I see hints of remorse, or at least lack of psychopathic joy that Garrett shows ("no hard feelings Bob", "it was too good a line")). Ward doesn't kill for the pure thrill of killing. I think the way he talked to Skye (you don't understand me, boo) is – despite him being childish in the worst sense of the word, I don't disagree @Sarahastro, that he's an ugly human being at the moment – still, in my opinion this is a very well done, psychologically plausible characterization. But it doesn't mean that he won't realize that he had done bad things. The whole point of TPTB "digging the "Ward is evil" hole even deeper" is to make stakes real. His killing known and liked characters made stakes as real as they could possibly be. But all this only increases my faith that TPTB will actually pull Ward's redemption storyline off in a manner that will be both satisfying and believable. And that it will not last two episodes, but much, much longer. *crosses fingers* I've read a fanfiction story about Ward lately and there was one sentence that really struck me: "sometimes that redeemed world is even more amazing than the one that never fell". There's beauty in redemption storyline. But one has to like that type of storylines. I like them.

What I mean by "cheap storytelling" is the use of watered down RW horror, to evoke emotional response in the viewer (or comic book reader; that's not an accusation against the show, but against the MCUniverse in general), instead of creating an original evil force. Not to mention that even though Hydra is supposed to be double-nazi, they seem in fact to be a far wash-off of nazi-lite. Which is actually understandable in a setting of an adventure story meant for fun. Nazis from MCUniverse do not equal RW nazis. But that means the argument that Ward serves the nazis is kind of moot for me. I can't consider him as aiding someone who created Concentration Camps, because that's something we won't see on screen, or even hear mentioned (which is good -- this show is meant for fun, not for rising awareness). He serves people who have no respect for human life, that I agree with, but then again, no military respects human life, because if it did, its very reason for existing would be undermined. What brings me back to my argument that I perceive Ward as a soldier and nothing more horrendous than that.

I guess for me it's impossible, on a mental level, to identify comic book, or tv show (that kind of tv show) nazis, with real world nazis. For me, they could be called Bad Wolfs or Evil Bunnies and it would have similar emotional response - depending solely on what was shown on screen. If anything, I consider the use of term "nazi" as an exploit and ignore it. I haven't seen teh Movies either - except for the Avengers, so first Cap America mythology is also foreign to me. Maybe Hydra was more evil there, than it is on the show. But you have a point. Reference to a term ingrained into collective consciousness may have a certain effect on the way some actions are perceived. Even if it's cheap storytelling. I guess time will tell what TPTB will actually do and how the general audience will react to it.

I would (and will) reject that kind of redemption too. But the key operative here is "will". It has not happened yet. If it does I'll be bitching with the rest of you, but until it does, I'm in a waiting mode. As I said, I don't consider what Ward did murder or "spree killing". I consider him a soldier who follows orders mostly out of loyalty to his commanding officer and obligation toward the side he's fighting for. I guess it begs a wider outlook question -- are all soldiers murderers? But that would be a completely different discussion. "Terrorism" is a label that is overused in our times, mainly for all the military actions that our (yours, mine, theirs) country disagrees with. Antagonist countries may consider our actions terrorism. Same with Shield and Hydra. About the remorse/hesitation thing. Well, I took another glance at all those "murder" scenes and his almost-murder of May, and I see remorse in Ward, albeit compartmentalized. I guess that's a YMMW matter.

It has something to do in my head but I'm not sure if I can explain how my brain works. It's entirely possible that I see connections where there aren't any. You're right about him not showing hesitation or remorse. However, we don't really know what drives him. And to his defense - we didn't see joy either, while we did see some amount of malicious satisfaction form Garrett (his "No hard feelings, Bob" to the guard he killed at the Tahiti bunker was a duh! moment for me, even before we knew he was evil). To me Ward is simply a (mindless) soldier. He follows orders. Why he follows them blindly is another question. But that's something that may change. And I get it that most people aren't as invested in his character as I am (I tend to like the least likeable characters on the shows, I don't know why, maybe because nobody likes me either ;) but hey, I'm kind of bummed that people deliver judgement without knowing more facts. We still have a few episodes left, speaking with such firm conviction feels kind of premature, especially if it's also backed up by "he can only be redeemed if this or that, period". I see a redemption possibility that is neither mind control Winter Soldier style, nor a fakeout. Granted, I couldn't sell it if my life depended on it, but I still hold out hope that TPTB are better writers than I am. Plus, no two minds have the same ideas. They might yet surprise us. Or me for that matter if they indeed have no redemption plans for him. ;)

I'm kind of curious about one thing, concerning fanbase's perspective of Grant Ward at the moment. Is it just a "moment" thing and will quickly change if the wind blows in different direction, or are the viewers consistent in their opinions? Many people are very vocal about how Ward is not redeemable, how he's done so much bad shit and killed everyone, so he can't never-ever be forgiven. And, well, yes he killed a lot of characters that we, the viewers, knew and maybe liked (I didn't like Hand, but many people did). I kind of wonder if the response would be so vocal if he was only killing unnamed Redshirts. But that's not my point. My point is that a few weeks ago the audience was outraged by the apparent rape scene from the Lorelei episode. The main accusation, toward TPTB, was that there wouldn't be any follow up to Ward being violated. And, well, there wasn't. But nobody seems to care. Now, my question is – is it because it's a water under a distant bridge and what happened a few episodes ago doesn't matter anymore? If that was the case, I'd think that if TPTB did a backflip now and made Ward a lovable puppy-hugging softie, the audience would forgive all the sins and in three weeks time he'd be allowed back into the fold. Or is it some other explanation – like maybe, bacause he's a villian and he killed Hand and Patton Oswald, then maybe he deserved to be raped? Or maybe, because he's a villian, in retrospect it wasn't rape at all? Or maybe, simply, different people were vocal about the "Lorelei/Ward sexytiems being really a rape" scene and different are now vocal about him being too evil to be allowed to live. Yeah, that's probably it… Well. Either way, I am of the opinion that a redemption storyline (albeit a long, maybe even a season-long one) for Ward is possible (and it has to do with him being violated on multiple occasion, some of them being my own (over)interpretation, but some being really on screen, like the beating he got from Garrett). No, I don't think that he can be redeemed at the end of this season, but I hope TPTB will show us a hint of why he might, one day. And I hope a significant chunk of the audience will believe it.

I think the problem is also that watching tv is no longer about only watching tv. We have all the interviews, cast live-tweeting, facebooking and whatnot. Notice that a lot of SkyeWard romance came from Chloe Bennett liking the idea. I didn't see ANY build-up to SkyeWard on the show, except for the last couple of episodes. People complain that TPTB are forcibly paring up those two actors when there's no chemistry between them. Well, hello! There is no chemistry, because they are NOT being paired up. It's all a ploy. And I have to say I like the explanation we got. Gosh, I'd hate it if Ward was all sneaky and shifty-eyed all season. Good deep-cover spy integrates with his target and that's just what he did (not that I know anything about spying, but that's how I imagine it ;)

As I learned from other spy shows, Fooling Lie Detector 101 is to lie on the baseline questions. Baseline questions were: "State your full name" and "State your immediate family". Ward's baseline had a lot of spikes. Does it mean he lied on either of those questions? And, to answer Sarahastro - I'm thinking way too much about it, obviously - but there are bullies and there are bullies. One person simply takes sadistic pleasure from hurting others. Such person wouldn't let anyone hurt them - they are the alpha-dog. And true sociopaths. Garrett is such person. Another takes to bullying because that's the only thing they know. They were abused when they were the weakest in the pack, so when they are in turn the strongest - they abuse those weaker than them. That's how I see Ward. Maybe that's because I really liked him from the start and I still like him - so I want to see something good in him, something that would allow him to be redeemed. I think it's gonna be - and I want it to be - a very long road for him to become the "good" person, but I think deep inside he wants to be that. Just - no one ever showed him how. Oh, and I still think he's the youngest brother, not the middle one.