The Thirteenth Doctor: Jodie Whittaker

[ElleryAnne]

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I continue to not understand this “PC agenda” rap given the show has always been socially liberal and progressive and took up social issues.

For me, it's in the fact that Chibnall has all season chosen "safe" villains - by which I mean, his villains are generally types that PC culture is happy to see as villains. White men, rich corporate Trump-types, that sort of thing.  There were a couple of episodes that strayed from this, but overall as a season it felt like Chibnall played it safe, even to the point of cowardly, in his storytelling.  And if he'd done it well, I wouldn't personally care.  But they were also bland and one-dimensional, and that's harder to overlook.  It's seemed at times that he was more concerned with having appropriate villains than with having original stories.

In the long run I feel like it just ended up being unfortunate for JW, who deserved better stories than she got.  

 

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Doctor Who has always attempted to be progressive. Sometimes the show gets it right. Sometimes it comes across as heavy-handed and preachy. That has literally always been true, since 1963. 

And I wonder how much of the feeling about the PC-ness (?) of Thirteen's first season has to do with when folks first discovered Doctor Who.  I didn't know the show until its reboot, and Nine and Ten remain my favorite Doctors.  During the past several years, I've seen numerous episodes with the earlier Doctors, but I wasn't alive during those years to learn to love them first.  And the first four seasons of Nu-Who aren't (IMO) terribly preachy - they're more sci-fi drama/adventure/touch of comedy.  Are most of the comments about the past season being more PC coming from people who prefer the RTD and/or Moffett eras, or is it more evenly distributed with those who were fans of the show from its inception in '63?

[Dobian]

On 1/30/2019 at 6:21 AM, Chaos Theory said:

And yet it wasn’t.   Unless you looked.  Unless you WANTED to see that message.  I see that a lot these days.  A man yells at a woman on tv and suddenly half the audience  calls it SJW and anti male when it’s often just not.  This had absolutely nothing to do with white men at all.  zero zip zilch and that might be the most offensive thing about the episode.

Actually, it had quite a bit to do with white men.  The antagonist was a white male alien racist, which to me seemed completely nonsensical.  What would race issues in a particular time and place on Earth matter at all to an alien from across the galaxy?  Not to mention the fact that of all the things this alien could have been, from a lizard to a bumblebee, in this story it's a white male.  So it makes this not-so-subtle suggestion that even beyond Earth out in the galaxy, there are evil racist white men lurking.  My big problem with the episode wasn't even that really, it was the fact that it was historically wrong to suggest you could change history by stopping Rosa from getting on the bus, since the incident was staged in real life and she would have just tried again the next night.

[DanaK]

Rosa did not stage the incident according to the official sources and Rosa herself. It was not planned and Rosa had not realized that was the same bus driver who forced her off years before. Another bus driver might not have bothered to have her arrested. What was planned was figuring out which case to take to court. The NAACP decided Rosa was a better case as opposed to a pregnant unwed teenager who refused to move 6 months before

I think the show’s conceit is that certain points in history are sensitive and needed all the right conditions to happen the way it happened. That was certainly the belief the Doctor was working under. There are certain events that are fixed points in time and can’t be changed without bad stuff happening and then there are points in time where things can be nudged to change the events, which Krasko was doing

I’ll concede that Krasko was a weak villain who was easily defeated, but the bigger villain was the racist system at the time

[clack]

Chibnall sees science fiction as allegory, as social/political commentary, and to be fair to him, there is a long history of SF being used in that manner on TV, starting with the Twilight Zone, and including some of the silliest episodes of StarTrek.

TV writers' SF ideas are mostly derivative hackwork, and their politics are off-the-rack left wing. Chibnall is original neither in his science fictional concepts or in his political ideas.

[ketose]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:51 AM, DanaK said:

Rosa did not stage the incident according to the official sources and Rosa herself. It was not planned and Rosa had not realized that was the same bus driver who forced her off years before. Another bus driver might not have bothered to have her arrested. What was planned was figuring out which case to take to court. The NAACP decided Rosa was a better case as opposed to a pregnant unwed teenager who refused to move 6 months before

I think the show’s conceit is that certain points in history are sensitive and needed all the right conditions to happen the way it happened. That was certainly the belief the Doctor was working under. There are certain events that are fixed points in time and can’t be changed without bad stuff happening and then there are points in time where things can be nudged to change the events, which Krasko was doing

I’ll concede that Krasko was a weak villain who was easily defeated, but the bigger villain was the racist system at the time

If not staged, "replicated" or "improved" might be more accurate. The NAACP knew about Claudette Colvin and Rosa Parks had ties to the NAACP. All this just tends to show that demonstrations would (and did) increase in size and frequency until national civil rights laws were passed in the US.

https://www.ajc.com/news/national/claudette-colvin-teen-bus-seat-protest-preceded-rosa-parks-action/rpToO8FgnnaHtvkko6t5zI/

The SJW claims could be better represented by an episode like 2011's "Day of the Moon" where Nixon allowed a White male Secret Service Agent to return to duty even though he wanted to marry a Black man.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

If not staged, "replicated" or "improved" might be more accurate. The NAACP knew about Claudette Colvin and Rosa Parks had ties to the NAACP. All this just tends to show that demonstrations would (and did) increase in size and frequency until national civil rights laws were passed in the US.

It wasn’t just that Rosa worked for the NAACP; she was also seen as older, employed, reliable, married and more mature. Not really fair to Colvin, but stuff happens

[tv-talk]

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Are most of the comments about the past season being more PC coming from people who prefer the RTD and/or Moffett eras, or is it more evenly distributed with those who were fans of the show from its inception in '63?

I think it's mainly that having a woman Doctor wasnt going to sit very well with a large swath of the franchise's fans. In many ways it was actually Clara who was the most "PC" character (lordy, i hate that term as it's borderline nonsensical these days). Clara was the ultimate "Mary Sue" character and was generally condescending towards the older, white male Doctor while frequently being written as smarter and more competent than him...yet for all the justified complaints about that character I cant recall much "it's SJW crap" even tho one could argue the entire point of her character was to portray a young woman as superior to the Doctor.

Edited February 11, 2019 by tv-talk

[ketose]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I think it's mainly that having a woman Doctor wasnt going to sit very well with a large swath of the franchise's fans. In many ways it was actually Clara who was the most "PC" character (lordy, i hate that term as it's borderline nonsensical these days). Clara was the ultimate "Mary Sue" character and was generally condescending towards the older, white male Doctor while frequently being written as smarter and more competent than him...yet for all the justified complaints about that character I cant recall much "it's SJW crap" even tho one could argue the entire point of her character was to portray a young woman as superior to the Doctor.

On 1/30/2019 at 5:19 PM, ElleryAnne said:

For me, it's in the fact that Chibnall has all season chosen "safe" villains - by which I mean, his villains are generally types that PC culture is happy to see as villains. White men, rich corporate Trump-types, that sort of thing.  There were a couple of episodes that strayed from this, but overall as a season it felt like Chibnall played it safe, even to the point of cowardly, in his storytelling.  And if he'd done it well, I wouldn't personally care.  But they were also bland and one-dimensional, and that's harder to overlook.  It's seemed at times that he was more concerned with having appropriate villains than with having original stories.

In the long run I feel like it just ended up being unfortunate for JW, who deserved better stories than she got.  

And I wonder how much of the feeling about the PC-ness (?) of Thirteen's first season has to do with when folks first discovered Doctor Who.  I didn't know the show until its reboot, and Nine and Ten remain my favorite Doctors.  During the past several years, I've seen numerous episodes with the earlier Doctors, but I wasn't alive during those years to learn to love them first.  And the first four seasons of Nu-Who aren't (IMO) terribly preachy - they're more sci-fi drama/adventure/touch of comedy.  Are most of the comments about the past season being more PC coming from people who prefer the RTD and/or Moffett eras, or is it more evenly distributed with those who were fans of the show from its inception in '63?

I have to imagine fans of Original Who are the greatest contingent. This would basically span the range of watchers from 1963 to 2005, specifically between the 70's and the 90's. NuWho has had almost every companion "save" the Doctor, with varying amounts of injury to them. That alone is significantly different from the original. The new series is 13 years old (close to half of the original run) and has gone through as many doctors as the original. My opinion is that the "PC" stuff is more of a symptom of the overall problem, which is a re-interpretation of the Doctor and his / her story that is more personality driven than story driven. Older shows involved watching the Doctor and figuring out his motivations from that. Now it's more about the Doctor explaining personal motivations. That goes back to Eccleston and even the Paul McGann movie.

[Jacqs]

When it comes to both Missy and Thirteen, the show has been unwilling to address the problems of gender dysphoria. 

For example in the real world, If a girl-to-boy trans person DOESN'T have gender affirming reconstructive surgery, there is a high chance of happening to them what happened to Brandon Teena when some good ole' boy hicks found out Brandon still had v-ulva, v-agina etc - they raped and murdered him. 

If they DO have reconstructive surgery, they may still not being able to feel a "real" man and may even take their own life, as David Reimer did. (he was forcibly surgically re-assigned into "Brenda" as a baby in a monstrous "is it nature or is it nurture?" gender experiment).

Edited February 15, 2019 by Jacqs

[DanaK]

On 2/15/2019 at 11:39 AM, Jacqs said:

When it comes to both Missy and Thirteen, the show has been unwilling to address the problems of gender dysphoria. 

For example in the real world, If a girl-to-boy trans person DOESN'T have gender affirming reconstructive surgery, there is a high chance of happening to them what happened to Brandon Teena when some good ole' boy hicks found out Brandon still had v-ulva, v-agina etc - they raped and murdered him. 

If they DO have reconstructive surgery, they may still not being able to feel a "real" man and may even take their own life, as David Reimer did. (he was forcibly surgically re-assigned into "Brenda" as a baby in a monstrous "is it nature or is it nurture?" gender experiment).

Why should the show address this as any big thing? Time Lords are, you know, Time Lords. They regularly change bodies and it was established since the show’s revival that they can regenerate into a man or woman without any indication of a problem, some or most being able to choose their next form (the latter possibly addressed in classic Who as well). So they are gender fluid and not hung up on labels like humans are. Other than having to get used to a new body and new personality, why should gender be an ongoing negative issue? I think the Doctor indicated a blasé attitude about it in the Series 10 two part finale in a conversation with Bill Potts, noting said human hangup on labels. In the Series 11 premiere, she was briefly surprised when told she was a woman but then seemed to accept it pretty easily, though in Episode 3’s Rosa, when addressed as Madam, she commented to herself that she still hadn’t quite gotten used to that. In general, the Doctor as a woman just acts her usual past self, like bulling her way into taking charge, and she only has an issue with it when others make it an issue. She in fact delights in participating in women things in Demons of the Punjab. The Master had some fits about it when he met his future female self Missy in the same Series 10 finale, but he was a jerk and a psychopath anyway. So like the honey badger, a Time Lord don’t care 🙂 I suppose a particular Time Lord could have a major issue with it, but that would likely be rare

Edited February 17, 2019 by DanaK

[DanaK]

I have a question about the Doctor’s sexual orientation. An article I read the other day about whether the Doctor can ethically have a relationship with a companion stated at the end that the Doctor was pansexual, which didn’t make sense to me. In all the stuff I’ve read about the show’s history on Wikipedia and seen onscreen so far, all the relationships the Doctor has had (since New Who at least; most previous Doctors seemed to be mostly treated as asexual) have been with women (though obviously different alien species, particularly humans). I know Captain Jack had a thing for the Doctor, but it wasn’t reciprocated. So has the Doctor been shown having any real interest in anything other than women (I think the assumption is that his late family included a wife)? I’ve seen many fans wanting to see 13 in a relationship and many assume it would be with a woman, which makes sense to me assuming the Doctor’s interest has been only or primarily towards women

[ketose]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

I have a question about the Doctor’s sexual orientation. An article I read the other day about whether the Doctor can ethically have a relationship with a companion stated at the end that the Doctor was pansexual, which didn’t make sense to me. In all the stuff I’ve read about the show’s history on Wikipedia and seen onscreen so far, all the relationships the Doctor has had (since New Who at least; most previous Doctors seemed to be mostly treated as asexual) have been with women (though obviously different alien species, particularly humans). I know Captain Jack had a thing for the Doctor, but it wasn’t reciprocated. So has the Doctor been shown having any real interest in anything other than women (I think the assumption is that his late family included a wife)? I’ve seen many fans wanting to see 13 in a relationship and many assume it would be with a woman, which makes sense to me assuming the Doctor’s interest has been only or primarily towards women

Going back to the Hartnell days, he was supposedly traveling through time with his granddaughter, which would imply that he had a wife and children. I also believe Tennant's Doctor mentioned being a father once to Donna. I think we can be reasonably certain that the Doctor is hetero, but any other spectrum identity is more speculation.

[DanaK]

Just now, ketose said:

Going back to the Hartnell days, he was supposedly traveling through time with his granddaughter, which would imply that he had a wife and children. I also believe Tennant's Doctor mentioned being a father once to Donna. I think we can be reasonably certain that the Doctor is hetero, but any other spectrum identity is more speculation.

Hetero so far, but of course if 13 has a relationship with a woman, she’ll be gay (which she likely won’t care about)

[Lantern7]

Here's a scene from 2020:

Doctor: All right, you lot. I know you have a lot of questions for me about the elephant in the room.

[camera pans towards an elephant standing near Team TARDIS. He/She lets out a trumpet]

Doctor: And I'll get to you too, luv.

Seriously, given that Time Lords at least have the potential to cross gender lines completely, I don't think their sexuality and those of humans aren't comparable.

[DanaK]

54 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Seriously, given that Time Lords at least have the potential to cross gender lines completely, I don't think their sexuality and those of humans aren't comparable.

Just to clarify, you think the sexuality of a Time Lord is comparable to a human, like human sexual labels can be used properly to refer to them? Or you don't think that? Or in other words, can you restate that without a double negative lol?

Edited February 16, 2019 by DanaK

[Bruinsfan]

We've seen the Doctor be at least flirty with Jack Harkness, and the relationship with the Master during Tennant's run had some... complexities that could be read as romantic. I think since the new era began the show's treated the issue with a lot of ambiguity given it's dealing with a longstanding pop culture icon.

[tv-talk]

I fully understand that NuWho was aimed at broadening the appeal of the show and character, and I think that's terrific. However if the Doctor is going to have a significant other as a Companion that's it for me, really don't think I would bother watching. No I certainly don't expect the show to adhere to Classic Who guidelines but it's really just not The Doctor anymore if there is a girlfriend or boyfriend along for the ride. That said I thought River Song was done brilliantly with the fact they were headed opposite directions in time meaning the "wife" aspect wasnt fully realized. That's as close as I need to get to the Doctor being fully romantically involved with anyone. Just my $.02 

[Sakura12]

I'd like to see River meet 13. She didn't recogonize 12, 13 would be an even bigger surprise. 

[DanaK]

7 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I fully understand that NuWho was aimed at broadening the appeal of the show and character, and I think that's terrific. However if the Doctor is going to have a significant other as a Companion that's it for me, really don't think I would bother watching. No I certainly don't expect the show to adhere to Classic Who guidelines but it's really just not The Doctor anymore if there is a girlfriend or boyfriend along for the ride. That said I thought River Song was done brilliantly with the fact they were headed opposite directions in time meaning the "wife" aspect wasnt fully realized. That's as close as I need to get to the Doctor being fully romantically involved with anyone. Just my $.02 

Personally, because of the power angle and because it's his/her ship, I wouldn't want the Doctor to be involved with a companion if the person didn't start out as a boyfriend/girlfriend. I wouldn't mind if 13 got a girlfriend who might later become a wife (and didn't go along on the adventures) as long as it remained a small part of the show (as the show is about the Doctor and his/her adventures). Being a new viewer, I wasn't around with Classic Who treating the Doctor as if he was asexual and was his companion's Uncle-like mentor. At the same time, with new Who, I don't particularly like the Doctor having a thing with companions who are mesmerized by the Doctor and fall in love with him without really knowing what he's about. It's like they can't separate adventuring with the Doctor and having feelings towards him/her

At the same time, I don't understand classic Who wanting to keep the Doctor mysterious and thus ignoring a lot of the Doctor's inner life. Part of that may have been about keeping things "proper" in those earlier times. New Who has the Doctor more front and center and we get to know him/her better, including romances. Of course, one could argue that the Doctor Classic Who didn't want to get involved with anyone after losing his family, but then things changed with New Who

Edited February 17, 2019 by DanaK

[tv-talk]

I think it's just the difference in eras. Thru most of Classic Who, heroes were do'ers moreso than anything else, men who put aside their own feelings for the most part and got things done. That's basically the case whether you are watching The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, Doctor Who, and most anything in-between. People in general didnt think it was proper to talk that much about yourself, whether at a party, at work, or whatever. Contrast that to where society is now with standard procedure being to IG every meal you are having and upload video of vacations, school, break-ups, funerals and everything else that's happening to you- it makes sense that NuWho is more about the Doctor himself than it was in the past.

[ketose]

Plus, what we're learning now about the Doctor isn't all that great, anyway. In the original, we learned that the Doctor was something of a rebel in a society that was almost regal and actually called themselves "time lords." My favorite piece of information was in the 1996 movie where the Doctor said he was half human on his mother's side. That was quickly negated as not being canon. However, it would have made a lot of sense with the character being sort of an outcast and having an outsized interest in Earth.

[Jacqs]

When Wesley Crusher was initially being proposed as a teenage girl called Leslie Crusher, a lot of the pitched storyline ideas involved romance, just because the character would be a girl.

Why should Thirteen have romance stories in a way that wouldn't be expected for her male predecessors?

[DanaK]

I don’t particularly like the Doctor being romantically involved with a human who is pretty young, like in their early 20s at best, so I wasn’t really thrilled with the Doctor/Rose relationship (or the Doctor/Clara relationship but that was a weird case). It would be the same reason I wouldn’t be for a 13/Yaz relationship, given Yaz is 19/20 at this point, along with barely knowing this 2000+ year alien. Which is why I would prefer an older, more experienced partner for the Doctor, like River was (but she also was a special case)

 

4 hours ago, Jacqs said:

When Wesley Crusher was initially being proposed as a teenage girl called Leslie Crusher, a lot of the pitched storyline ideas involved romance, just because the character would be a girl.

Why should Thirteen have romance stories in a way that wouldn't be expected for her male predecessors?

For me, I don’t see it any different than the New Who male doctors who had romances (long or short), except I don’t want to see 13 with a young Companion

 

I’ve seen some fans say they don’t want to see the Doctor (any incarnation) in any kind of romance or relationship. My question is why? I can see not wanting it to be with a Companion, especially a young one, but why not a relationship in general? The Doctor is clearly lonely and is clearly capable of love. Just because they are a powerful alien doesn’t mean they don’t deserve or shouldn’t have fun or have a long term partner. Is it the fear it would take over the show and be too soapy or something else?

Edited February 18, 2019 by DanaK

[tv-talk]

3 hours ago, DanaK said:

I’ve seen some fans say they don’t want to see the Doctor (any incarnation) in any kind of romance or relationship. My question is why?

For me it's because NuWho is often times so overbearingly emo anyway that adding a romantic interest and the entire storyline that would go with the Doctor's romantic relationship would turn the show into the sci-fi version of chick lit and that's not a show I'd be interested in- tho tbh it wouldn't surprise me if it went there. For me anyway, Who is a SCI-FI first and foremost and I find it much more interesting when the Doctor and his/her companions are random interlopers to dire situations across space and time. 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

For me it's because NuWho is often times so overbearingly emo anyway that adding a romantic interest and the entire storyline that would go with the Doctor's romantic relationship would turn the show into the sci-fi version of chick lit and that's not a show I'd be interested in- tho tbh it wouldn't surprise me if it went there. For me anyway, Who is a SCI-FI first and foremost and I find it much more interesting when the Doctor and his/her companions are random interlopers to dire situations across space and time. 

I can understand not wanting it to take over the show; I wouldn’t want that either. But if it could be small parts of episodes or every few episodes, I wouldn’t mind that. I just want the Doctor to be happy and not alone and maybe start another family. But I guess there would also be the fear it would take away from the Doctor’s adventuring or have people wondering if the Doctor should be spending more time with family and not putting their life in danger so much

[Bruinsfan]

Romance for the Doctor worked for me when it was Capaldi's Doctor and River Song. Not so much with Matt Smith's Doctor, or Tennant's and Rose Tyler. I'm not opposed in principle to the idea for Jodie's Doctor, but it has to be handled just right.

[Chaos Theory]

Romances for The Doctor  especially Matt Smith and Capaladi were never rarely in the forefront.  It was usually just MS and Alex Kingston flirting while doing other stuff.  Capaladi had one episode with River to close her storyline where they talked about their lives and it looked more realistic because older man and young women tend to look better then the other way around regardless of what we want to believe.  If we have a live interest for Jodie Whittaker the. It has to be done just right and be like that.  Having adventures and maybe flirt a little.

[LoneHaranguer]

On 2/18/2019 at 9:06 PM, DanaK said:

I just want the Doctor to be happy and not alone and maybe start another family.

Seems to me you could have that if the Doctor were to reunite with Jenny.

[DanaK]

10 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Seems to me you could have that if the Doctor were to reunite with Jenny.

I haven’t seen that episode yet. She was a clone of the Doctor, right? But did they ever consider themselves family or have a real relationship?

[QuantumMechanic]

On 1/19/2019 at 5:25 PM, clack said:

I don't care that the Doctor is now a woman. It's all artifice anyway. Just tell a compelling story.

That's why I want to see Chibnall defenestrated -- so we can get compelling stories and give Whitaker something good to act to so she can really shine.

 

On 1/30/2019 at 8:23 AM, Llywela said:

Doctor Who has always attempted to be progressive. Sometimes the show gets it right. Sometimes it comes across as heavy-handed and preachy. 

And in Season 11 "heavy-handed and preachy" took the brass ring.  Repeatedly.  Makes for crappy TV even if you like the politics.

[LoneHaranguer]

21 hours ago, DanaK said:

I haven’t seen that episode yet. She was a clone of the Doctor, right? But did they ever consider themselves family or have a real relationship?

Yes, she was a clone. And yes on family, with Jenny kind of a rebellious teenage daughter. I think the writers did their best to give them a real relationship within the limits of a single episode. The ending looked suspiciously like they were hoping for a spinoff, but it also left plenty of room for the two to reunite.

[DanaK]

7 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Yes, she was a clone. And yes on family, with Jenny kind of a rebellious teenage daughter. I think the writers did their best to give them a real relationship within the limits of a single episode. The ending looked suspiciously like they were hoping for a spinoff, but it also left plenty of room for the two to reunite.

Except according to the plot summary on Wikipedia, she seemed to die though came back alive, but the Doctor thinks she’s dead

[LoneHaranguer]

8 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Except according to the plot summary on Wikipedia, she seemed to die though came back alive, but the Doctor thinks she’s dead

Yes, the Doctor doesn't know she regenerated, so it'd be a surprise. She was last seen leaving to explore, increasing the chances of meeting up again, since, with few exceptions, the Doctor doesn't revisit places often.

[rab01]

I've seen some people saying that Whittaker's run as Doctor Who tanked in the ratings but I don't think that's right.  According to the articles I've found it did better than a lot of nuWho:  https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/a870425/doctor-who-series-11-ratings-down-success-decline-jodie-whittaker/

and even an article that spun the drop from opener to finale as a huge death knell still had to admit that it did better than Capaldi's finale:
https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/12/female-doctor-who-season-ends-with-35-ratings-drop-and-37-rt-user-rating/73549/

Personally, I've liked but not loved this iteration -- none of the scripts have made me go "wow", and I like Whittaker but not really loving the companion dynamic -- but I don't think critics should pretend that it's some titanic failure.

[ketose]

I think it started with Clara, continued with Capaldi's stories and kept going with Whittaker. Plus, there's the underlying issue that Doctor Who doesn't make a lot of money for the BBC.

I think the weak story lines are a bigger factor than acting ability or the gender of the Doctor.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Doctor Who merchandise hasn't been selling worth a shit since the 13th Doctor came on the scene. The writing with all of the SJW themes has basically killed the series . People want to be entertained ,not given a social lecture.   Doctor Who fans who went the  big ComiCon shows this year have noticed how few people showed up with DW costumes. More were dressed as Capaldi's Doctor,and other previous Doctors, very___ few as Jodie's Doctor, just sayin'....

[Bruinsfan]

Uh huh. And how many female fans were dressing up as the various male Doctors previously, as opposed to male fans? Because a very obvious reason for the drop in Who cosplay suggests itself that has nothing to do with "SJW themes" ruining the show.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

According to a few people who went to the Comicon in NYC and San Diego, they saw I believe 2 people dressed as Jodie's Doctor and more ( I'm going to guess 15 or more?) dressed as Capaldi's or older Doctors.  I will say, according to Nerdrotic site, he has gone to many of the past Comicon shows in San Diego ,possibly others in S.F. or L.A., he said while Tennant and Smith  were on, there were multitudes of DW costume wearers. Apparently, once Capaldi came on as The Doctor, that's when the numbers started dropping off.

[Llywela]

So you are basing your entire judgement on hearsay? Okay, good to know.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

I have no reason to doubt the validity of  serious scifi fans  who have youtube channel sites such as Nerdrotic, Geeks + Gamers, Doomcock, etc...  Yes, they actually do attend those Comicon shows and report on them.

[Llywela]

There is every reason to doubt the validity of the youtube channels you have named, starting with the fact that about 99% of the rubbish they churn out is very, very easily proved false, conspiracy-theory nonsense designed to stir up hatred rather than to inform or generate meaningful debate. But this conversation is getting off-topic now, so I'll leave it there, except to say that you might be wise to look for more credible and less biased sources.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Llywela

[gonzosgirrl]

Why are people shocked that a number, even maybe a majority of male fans are still dressing up as any one of the male incarnations of the Doctor? I'd be more surprised if female fans aren't eager to finally have a female Doctor to cosplay, but it's not exactly shocking to me that guys don't choose to do that. I wouldn't consider it commentary on the popularity of Jodie Whitaker.

And I am using male/female here with respect to however one chooses to identify.

[DanaK]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why are people shocked that a number, even maybe a majority of male fans are still dressing up as any one of the male incarnations of the Doctor? I'd be more surprised if female fans aren't eager to finally have a female Doctor to cosplay, but it's not exactly shocking to me that guys don't choose to do that. I wouldn't consider it commentary on the popularity of Jodie Whitaker.

And I am using male/female here with respect to however one chooses to identify.

I've seen quite a few men dressed as 13 on social media (and via social media, at conventions) though. It's an outfit that anyone can wear, which is what Jodie intended when she helped design it

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I've seen quite a few men dressed as 13 on social media (and via social media, at conventions) though. It's an outfit that anyone can wear, which is what Jodie intended when she helped design it

True, it is a fairly androgynous outfit, but it is still representative of the female incarnation of the Doctor, so it's not surprising that the number of cos-players would be down on the whole, which is what the OP was arguing as indicative of Jodie's unpopularity. All that is based on my perception that the majority of cosplayers are male - which may indeed be wrong. I've never been to a comic con. Either way, I don't think it's a fair assessment.

[Bruinsfan]

In Supernatural fandom the vast majority of cosplayers are women, but my impression is that the reverse has been true for Who fandom.

[gail56]

I have been watching Doctor Who since the Tom Baker era. I really didn't like Colin Baker's run though still watched his episodes. Hardly watched McCoy. Then the show ended. Then they bought it back and I loved it again! Then came Capaldi and Clara, Clara, Clara. I think she worked better with Matt Smith.  There was some good episodes with Capaldi despite Clara, but that character just annoyed me.  I love Jenna, though. Loved Capaldi with Bill! Wish we could have had more Bill! 

When they made Jodi the Doctor I was looking forward to it as I love the actress and other work she has done. I wish they made her a ginger, though. The Doctor has always wanted to be ginger! However, the story lines and her companions do very little for me. This became really noticeable to me with the Marathon.  I enjoyed watching all the eps of the revival. Yes, even the Clara ones!

However, since they got to Jodi's today I just can't rewatch them. I have no interest. It could be the stories or the companion dynamics, but I just can't watch those episodes again. Here's hoping that this season is better!

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

I enjoyed the  DW episodes during the marathon except for last season's. Dr.Woke has sucked all the fun and magic out of the show and it really stands out when you run it up against the older seasons as we saw during the marathon.

[tessaray]

They do appear to realize that they needed to add some fun back in.  Spyfall was a good start on that for me, though mileage appears to vary.  

[Sakura12]

I love Jodie's Doctor. Moffat's era turned me off the show. It was too much world ending stories and villains over staying their welcome that ruined the fun for me. 

I liked the return of smaller stories with the occasional bigger arc. I liked the premiere and am looking forward to where it goes. 

[whoknowswho]

On 1/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, tessaray said:

They do appear to realize that they needed to add some fun back in.  Spyfall was a good start on that for me, though mileage appears to vary.  

What fun?  I honestly watched this episode until Whitaker said she'd "had an upgrade" and I just couldn't. My husband, a very casual watcher, watched the episode, kept asking me questions while this longtime fan (and I'm a woman, so it's not all men who dislike this series's Doctor with her "fam" with the exception of Graham because Bradley Walsh can actually act)  pouted and watched youtube instead.  Every time I looked up at the TV The Doctor had on her O face, or her whacky quirky lip sneer face on.  Nope, I'm done. I was done last series, but like my anger for Game of Thrones I really wanted it to turn out better. It won't.  I'm still angry that they chose a not very talented woman to play The Doctor. Those who say they "love" this series are probably really new fans, not long term, long lasting ones.  I've watched since the 1960s!  There have been a few poorish seasons in the past, Capaldi's era wasn't my favourite but the constant digs at fans just makes me want to kill my TV.